Employee Survival Guide® - Racially Hostile Work Environment and Retaliation: Tim Kittle v. Mavis Discount Tire

Episode Date: January 3, 2026

Comment on the Show by Sending Mark a Text Message.Start with a high performer, add an ugly burst of harassment, and end with a firing justified by a $600 regulatory fine—then ask what the law actually sees. We walk through Kittle v. Mavis Tire to unpack how retaliation can survive early motions while discrimination claims stumble on doctrines like “stray remarks” and the severe or pervasive standard. The story moves from profit turnarounds and bonuses to alleged slave-era taunts, a Nazi salute, and a warning that reporting the issue would “cost you your job,” followed by a rapid transfer and termination. That tight timeline becomes the spine of a viable retaliation claim, even as the court initially dismisses the federal discrimination and hostile environment counts.We get practical about proof. Where’s the link between the people using slurs and the people who made the firing decision? How do comparators work, and why do courts demand names, dates, and matching details? We also dig into the DMV waiver pretext: approved by management, paperwork allegedly in hand, and yet transformed into the official reason for termination. When Kittle amends his complaint, he does two big things—alleges behind-the-scenes influence on the decision-makers and pivots to the New York State Human Rights Law’s “treated less well” standard, a crucial shift that lowers the bar for a hostile work environment claim compared with Title VII.The final turn is about technology and fairness. If a company auto-deletes audio and video after 30 days, how can anyone prove brief but severe harassment? We explore how data retention policies, legal holds, and fast reporting can make or break a case, and why retaliation claims often become the path to accountability when direct evidence of bias is thin. Listen for a clear, candid map of performance records, timelines, pretext analysis, and state-versus-federal standards—and walk away with a sharper sense of how to document, escalate, and protect yourself when the stakes are high. If this breakdown helps, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review to support more deep dives like this. If you enjoyed this episode of the Employee Survival Guide please like us on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. We would really appreciate if you could leave a review of this podcast on your favorite podcast player such as Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Leaving a review will inform other listeners you found the content on this podcast is important in the area of employment law in the United States. For more information, please contact our employment attorneys at Carey & Associates, P.C. at 203-255-4150, www.capclaw.com.Disclaimer: For educational use only, not intended to be legal advice.

Hey, it's Mark here, and welcome to the next edition of the Employee Survival Guide, where I tell you, as always, what your employer does definitely not want you to know about, and a lot more. Welcome back to the deep dive, where we take your stack of sources, articles, and some pretty dense legal documents, and trying to distill them into something we can all understand. And today's stack is definitely dense. We're looking at a workplace dispute that really flips the script on our usual assumptions about discrimination. That's right. This isn't just any case. We're looking at a situation of alleged reverse discrimination. It's the case of Kittle v. Mavis Tire Supply LLC. And the plaintiff, Timothy Kittle, who is a white male and a former store manager, he's alleging a whole host of things. We're talking racial slurs, a hostile work environment, and then retaliation after he complained.

So our mission for this deep dive is to get right into the court documents themselves. We have the amended complaint, the company's motion to dismiss, and the court's initial opinion from September 2025. All filed in the Eastern District of New York. And what we want to understand is how the law, both federal law, like Title VII and the New York State Human Rights Law, how do they actually handle these kinds of allegations when the plaintiff is, you know, a member of the majority race? It's such a critical question. And just to be clear, we're not here to decide who is right or wrong. Our job is to understand the legal hurdles, the thresholds you have to meet for a case like this to even move forward. Right. We're following Timothy Kittles' claims against his former employer, Mavis Tire, and a specific individual, a senior skills coach named Greg Brown.

And this case really illustrates something fundamental, doesn't it? The difference between being treated poorly at work, which might just be an HR issue. And being treated illegally, which is what you need for a federal lawsuit. The whole thing hinges on whether you can connect that racial animosity to a real, tangible, adverse employment action, like getting fired. Even if the company tries to hide it behind some other reason. Especially then. That's what the law calls pretext. Okay, so let's unpack this timeline. To really get why the legal arguments matter, we have to start with who Timothy Kittle was at Mavis Tire.

Because the picture of the sources paint is not of some guy who was already on the rocks. Not at all. In fact, that's foundational to his entire case. He needs to show his performance was, well, basically unimpeachable. It makes the later firing look much more suspicious. So what do we know? He's a white male hired around May of 2020 as a manager in training. And the complaint makes a point of saying he was personally recruited. The regional director, a guy named Jim Napoli, sought him out because he had a strong reputation in the industry.

So he comes in with high expectations. And did he deliver? He did. The documents allege he took his first store, which was in Comac, New York. and turned it around completely, from losing money to making a significant profit. A significant profit. To the point where that store apparently secured first place in the entire region under his leadership, this isn't just a small detail.

It's his baseline. It's the evidence that says, I knew how to run a store and I ran it well. So he's established as a top performer. And then in January 2021, he gets a transfer. He's moved to the Hicksville, New York store to be the store manager there. And the success story continues, at least at first. He earns performance bonuses in his first three weeks at the new location. So this context is absolutely critical, right?

It establishes that just three months before he was fired, he was excelling. The termination couldn't have been about his competence. Legally, that's crucial. For a white plaintiff alleging reverse discrimination, some courts require them to show what are called background circumstances that suggests the employer is the unusual kind of employer who discriminates against the majority. And his stellar performance record is part of that. It's powerful circumstantial evidence. It suggests that something other than his job performance was the real reason for what happened next.

And what happened next is the core conflict. It starts almost as soon as he arrives in Hicksville with the arrival of a senior skills coach named Greg Brown. Right. Kittle alleges that up until Brown arrived in January 2021 to train technicians, he hadn't experienced any discrimination. And he adds a really important detail here. At that specific moment, in that specific store, he was the only white employee. Which sets the stage. You have this racial dynamic and you have Greg Brown, who has this title Senior Skills Coach.

It implies a level of authority, even if he wasn't Kittles' direct boss. So Kittles' claim is that Brown immediately began to undermine his authority as the store manager. Yes, that's the first form of the alleged harassment. It started with simple interference. Brown was there to improve things. But Kittle claims he would just engage technicians in casual non-work conversations. So he's just ignoring the manager. Actively ignoring Kittles' directives to, you know, bring customer cars into the bay.

This wasn't just disrespectful. It directly hurt Kittles' ability to run an efficient and profitable store. And then things escalated. The language shifted from what you might call insubordination to something much, much darker. This is where the allegations become extremely serious. Kittle claims that when he would hand Brown a repair order, Brown would say, yes, Massa, and then just stand there. Yes, Massa.

For about 20 minutes, according to the complaint, just idle. Customers are waiting, services delayed. And the use of that word, Massa, is obviously drawing on the history of slavery. It's a direct racial epithet in this context. And it didn't stop there. The complaint alleges something else, something even more chilling. It does. Kittle alleges that Brown mocked him by marching,

giving what he describes as a Nazi salute, And then saying the words, white power. A Nazi salute. A Nazi salute. And this is a recurring critical detail. He alleges this happened in an area of the store with no camera coverage. Wow. So it's his word against Browns.

And Kittle claims Brown kept using the MASSA term, implying Kittle was acting like he was demanding that his slaves work. The intent Kittle alleges was to create an environment where he felt racially targeted and unsafe. And he connects this alleged harassment back to the business side of things to his paycheck. Yes. And that's very smart from a legal perspective. He argues that this wasn't just emotionally damaging. The loss of productivity from Brown's deliberate delays directly cut into his commission. So he's linking the racial slurs to a tangible change in his employment conditions, his pay.

Exactly. It's evidence that the harassment was actually altering the terms of his job. So Kittle does what you're supposed to do. He reports it. He goes to his regional training manager, a man named Mike DeGenaro. Immediately. And he specifically mentions the hit to productivity in his pay, but the response he allegedly got from management is, well, it's one of the most damning parts of this entire complaint. How so?

De Janeiro's reaction seems to have gone from just downplaying it to an outright threat. At first, he just said, look, Brown is corporate. He's only here for two days. Just leave it alone. But Kiddle didn't leave it alone. No, he pressed the issue. And that's when DeGonero's warning got much more serious. This is the smoking gun conversation, as some might call it. It really is. DeGiara reportedly told him, you are right, but you do not want this fight. It will cost you your job. It will cost you your job. And then, even more explicitly, he allegedly said, you will get fired if you report the issue.

If that conversation can be proven, it's a huge piece of evidence for retaliation. Yeah. It shows management knew about his complaint and that there was an intent to punish him for it. But the interference from Brown continued even after that warning. It did. Kittle alleges Brown would deliver. sabotaged the workflow, telling technicians to stop working on customer cars to watch 15-minute training videos. And he timed it perfectly to cause the most disruption. Exactly when Kittle assigned new work. So this suggests a pattern, not just a one-off insult. Kill says he felt

unsafe, isolated. He filed a report through the Mavis computer system to HR and also tried to reach his regional director, Jim Napley, who was out on medical leave. And what happened? Nothing, according to Kittle. To his knowledge, No action was taken. He was just told to deal with it. And that lack of action is key for a hostile environment claim because it can show the company was negligent or worse, complicit. It is. Now, let's circle back to that camera issue and the problem of evidence. Kittle reported all of this, the salute, the mass of comments, right after it happened in late January 2021. He was hoping for audio, right, even if the video didn't catch it.

Exactly. He hoped the store's microphones would have picked up the slurs. But as we'll get into, Mavis' system apparently only kept recordings for 30 days. 30 days. So if HR doesn't immediately put a legal hold on that data. It's gone. That crucial piece of evidence that could have proven the severity of the harassment was just wiped away by his standard company policy. Which puts him in a terrible position, relying funnly on his testimony. A huge hurdle. And the problem didn't just disappear when Brown left. Kittle claims the atmosphere in the Hicksville store was poisoned. The technician, started mimicking the behavior. So they were repeating the slurs. They allegedly started

responding to his work orders with, yes, Massa, or I'll get right on it, boss, in that same mocking, slave-like tone. So in Kittles' telling, the hostile environment became pervasive. It outlasted Brown's visit. So if those warnings from D. Genaro weren't clear enough, what happened next really suggests the company was just looking for an excuse, any excuse, to get rid of Kittle. That's certainly the narrative, his complaint puts forward. And this brings us to the retaliatory actions, which were all disguised as an administrative issue about a DMV waiver. And let's just clarify for our listeners. We're talking about the year 2021 for all these events.

Our outline had a couple of typos. Correct. This is all happening in 2021. So this sequence of events starts just a few weeks after his complaints about Brown went nowhere. It all centers on this DMV waiver. Which becomes the company's official reason for firing him, the pretext. Exactly. So in late February 2021, Kittle performs a vehicle inspection. The vehicle qualifies for a very specific waiver under New York regulations.

What does that mean exactly? It basically allows a car to pass inspection even if it doesn't meet all the emissions standards, but only if the owner has spent a certain amount of money around $450 to $500 on emissions-related repairs. Okay, and Kittle follows protocol on this. He says he did. And this is a key piece of the paper trail. He claims he called Mike DeGenero, the side. same manager who warned him he'd be fired, and that DeGenaro approved it.

He approved the waiver. Explicitly approved it, saying, quote, as long as it's on the up and up. This establishes that Kittle wasn't acting alone. Management knew about it and signed off on it. But then the DMV shows up. Right. On Friday, March 2nd, 2021, DMV officials come to the store asking for the paperwork for that waiver. And what happens?

A simple staffing issue, according to Kittle. The technician who handles that specific paperwork wasn't in. The DMV was told to come back on Monday. And Kittle emphasizes that at this point, nobody from Mavis corporate was even contacted. It was a routine store-level visit. So Kittle knows the DMV is coming back. He finds the paperwork. He finds it.

He copies it. And that Friday night, he leaves the original paperwork and the cash from the transaction in the file cabinet, ready for the DMV on Monday. And on Monday. On Monday, DeGenaro, his manager, confirms that he has the paperwork and the money. Okay, this sequence is incredibly important. If Kittles' story is true, it means that before any issue about missing paperwork came up, the paperwork was already in his manager's possession.

Which strongly supports his argument that the company's later reason for firing him, the missing paperwork, was either completely fabricated or, at the very least, an issue created by management, not by him. And the adverse actions start almost immediately after this. The very next day. On March 3, 2021, Kittl is four. forced to transfer to another store. He's given no reason for it. Now, he wasn't fired yet, but this transfer is still considered a materially adverse action. Legally, why is that? Because it hit him in the wallet. The transfer moved him from a store that was highly profitable

where he was making bonuses to a new location where he wasn't able to make a bonus. It was effectively a demotion in pay. Which is enough for a retaliation claim. Absolutely. Kittle saw it as direct punishment for his complaints about Brown back in January. And then the final shoe drops about a month later. Yes. On April 7th, the regional vice president, Tom Sexton, and a brand new regional director named Dynish, visit Kittle at his new store. Sexton pulls him aside, away from any cameras or microphones, and questions him about that DMV paperwork. And the next morning, he's fired. By Dnish, the new R.D., who, according to the complaint, had only been on the job for one day. The timing here is just. It's everything. His complaint was in late January. His firing.

is April 8th, less than three months. Which gives you that temporal proximity the courts look for. It creates a very plausible inference of a causal link. So what was Mavis' official reason for firing a top-performing manager? Cost to the company. Specifically, a $600 fine from the DMV for the missing paperwork. And Kittles' argument is that this was a complete pretext. Let's break down his evidence for that.

He attacks it from multiple angles. First, he says a $600 fine is nothing. It's a minor administrative issue that would normally just be. pay it out of store profits. It's certainly not a reason to fire your best manager. So the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Exactly. Second, he points out that he faced no personal consequences from the state. His New York inspector's license was never disciplined or fined. This suggests the regulators didn't see it as a major personal failure on his part. And third, and this is the most powerful point for a discrimination claim. Yeah. The comparators.

This is the gold standard for proving pretext. Kittle alleges that at least three other non-white co-work had issued the same kind of waivers and were not fired. He even names a specific store, right? Yes, the manager at the Farmingdale location. That store was also visited by the DMV over a waiver issue, and that manager was not terminated. Let's take a quick break. It's Mark Kim. We have a new product for you. It's called the Employees Survival Guide or Employees Survival.com, and it's a site that you can obtain PDF products that I've

created myself. It's spending too many hours, way too many, researching and writing about if, for example, the performance improvement plan or beating them. And the second one about negotiating severance negotiation agreements to the most important topics that we see in terms of the web traffic and podcast traffic we have. So check out Employeeservival.com and see if this can try to help you and you don't need an attorney to use it. Thank you. Can you explain a little more what similarly situated means in the eyes of the court? It's a very specific term. It means they have to be similar in all material respects.

Yes. So same job title, reporting to the same level of supervisor, and this is the key. They engaged in comparable misconduct. So his argument is other managers did the same thing, cost the company the same $600, but they weren't white and they hadn't complained about racism and they kept their jobs. That's the core of it. If Mavis can't explain why Kittl was treated so much more harshly, then the court can infer that the stated reason, the sign, was just a cover story for the real illegal reason. And the company's actions didn't stop at the termination. He alleged as they blackballed him.

He does. In June of 2021, he actually reapplied to Mavis. And a manager named Jim Gannon flatly told him, Mavis will not hire you back. And then he tried to get a job somewhere else? Yes, at Firestone, a competitor. In October 2021, he was interviewed, he was offered a job, everything was great, pending a reference check. And the offer was revoked. It was. Kettle alleges that the Firestone Area Manager told him that Mavis advised them not to hire him because, quote, he causes problems.

The problem being that he complained about racial harassment. That's his allegation, that Mavis was retaliating against him even after he was gone, actively interfering with his ability to find a new job. Okay, so this is where we pivot. We've heard the employee's story. now we have to look at it through the cold, hard lens of the law. We have the court's opinion from September 2025, and this is the first real test of his claims. It's the gatekeeping stage. This is a motion to dismiss under Rule 12B6. The court has to ask a very specific question.

Which is? Assuming every single thing Timothy Kittle says is true, the slurs, the salute, the warnings, all of it. Even if it's all true, does it actually add up to a violation of the law? Does it state a claim for which the law provides a remedy? So the court is basically saying, we'll accept your story for now, but your story has to fit into a very specific legal box to continue. And this is even tougher because at this point, Kittle is representing himself. He's pro se. Right, which means the court gives his complaint a liberal construction.

They're a bit more forgiving of technical mistakes. But even with that leniency, the court's decision really shows just how high the bar is to successfully plead a discrimination case. So let's start with Kittles' one big win at this stage. The court did not dismiss his retaliation claims. Why did those survive when the others didn't? It was all about the calendar. The court saw a clear two-step process. One, Kittle engaged in a protected activity when he complained in January.

Two, he suffered a materially adverse action when he was transferred and then fired. And the timing was just too close to ignore. Exactly. That gap of less than three months was enough to establish temporal proximity. It creates a plausible inference that he was fired because he complained. So the retaliation claim against Mavis gets to move forward to discovery. That's a huge victory, procedurally. But his core claims that he was discriminated against for being white and that the work environment was hostile.

Those got completely dismissed. Let's start with the discrimination claim. The court called the racial comments, stray remarks. Yeah. That just sounds jarring. A Nazi salute and slave language are stray. How does a court get there? This is one of the most technical and frankly frustrating parts of employment law for a lot of people.

Our remark is legally considered stray if it doesn't have a direct nexus, a clear link to the adverse employment decision. So you have to connect the racist person to the person who did the firing. Precisely. The court said, look, Brown and the technicians made these horrible comments. But your complaint doesn't allege that they were the ones who decided to fire you. The decision makers were Sexton and Denish. And they gave a non-racial reason, the DMV, fine. Right. Because the slurs were made two months earlier by different people,

the court said there wasn't a sufficient nexus to believe the firing itself was motivated by race. The chain of causation was broken. So the decision maker is basically insulated if they can point to some administrative reason and claim they didn't know about the earlier harassment. It's a huge hurdle. And the disparate treatment claim also failed because his allegations about the comparators, weren't detailed enough. He didn't name names.

He needed more. Names, dates, the specific details of their waiver issues, just saying other non-white employees weren't fired is too conclusory for the court. Without those details, they couldn't confirm that Mavis really did treat him differently. Okay, now for the hostile work environment claim, this is another one that seems completely counterintuitive. How is a Nazi salute and being called Massa not legally severe enough? This is a perfect example of the incredibly high bar.

set by the federal Title VII standard of severe or pervasive. Severe or pervasive. It has to be one or the other. Yes. And the court looks at the totality of the circumstances. How frequent was the conduct? How severe was it? Was it physically threatening?

Emph did it unreasonably interfere with the employee's work performance? And the court found Kittles' complaint was lacking on. What? The severity seems pretty high. They focused on frequency and duration. They acknowledged the language was severe, but they noted that the worst. of it. The stuff with Brown was concentrated into just a two-day period, and the overall

hostile behavior only lasted about three weeks before he was transferred. So not pervasive enough. In the court's view, it wasn't enough to fundamentally alter the terms and conditions of his employment, which is what the federal standard requires. So it's not enough that it's offensive. It has to be so constant or so extreme that it makes the job impossible to do. And Kittle did argue that it hurt his pay, but the court got very specific. They said the drop in his commission was caused by Brown, making technicians watch training videos, not directly by the racial slurs themselves. That feels like splitting hairs. It's a very fine legal distinction.

And this is where the missing audio evidence really hurts him. If he had a recording of Brown using slurs repeatedly over those two days, that could have tipped the balance. But without it, his claim fell short of that very high federal bar. And finally, the claims against Greg Brown as an individual were also dismissed. Right. For two main reasons. First, you can't have aiding and abetting a violation if the court has already said there was no primary violation by the company. Since the discrimination and hostile environment claims against Mavis failed, the claims against Brown tied to them also had to fail.

And the second reason. For retaliation, the court found that Kittle hadn't alleged that Brown actually participated in the final decision to fire him. Brown might have been the source of the trouble, but he wasn't the one who pulled the trigger. So Kittle is in a tough spot. He's got a victory on retaliation, but his core claims about discrimination are dead in the water. This leads to part four, where he tries to fix it with a new amended complaint. Exactly.

This is his chance to address all the holes the court pointed out. But even getting the new complaint filed was a fight. He filed it a couple of days late. Bad defense lawyers jumped all over that. Immediately. They tried to get the whole thing thrown out on a technicality just for being untimely. It shows you how aggressive this kind of litigant. But Kiddell's new complaint had a very clear strategy. He needed to connect the dots between

Brown's racial animus and the actual firing decision. How did he try to do that? He had to build a bridge between Brown, the harasser, and Sexton and Denish, the supposedly uninformed decision makers. His new strategy was to allege that Brown had influenced them behind the scenes. How? He used a legal tool called pleading upon information in belief. He alleged that upon information and belief, Greg Brown communicated false or misleading information to the new managers, which led directly to his termination. So he's saying Brown fed them the pretext. He gave them the DMV issue as an excuse. That's the argument. And you're allowed to plead that way when the facts, the actual conversations between Brown and the VPs, are things you can't possibly

know without discovery. They are exclusively in the defendant's control. So he's building a circumstantial case. He's saying, look, the reason for firing me is weak, the timing is suspicious, and the new managers didn't know me. The only person with a motive was Brown. So it's plausible he's the one who orchestrated this. Precisely. If he can prove that, then Brown's script remarks are suddenly not stray anymore. They are directly linked to the motivation for the firing. It closes that legal gap. And he also beefed up his arguments about the comparators. Yes. He added more detail about the other managers who weren't fired for similar waiver issues, trying to satisfy the the court's demand for more specific, non-conclusory facts.

But the biggest strategic change was how he approached the hostile work environment claim. This is a huge tactical shift. He realized the federal, severe, or pervasive standard was a brick wall. So he pivoted to the New York State human rights law. Which has a different standard. A much, much lower standard. The NYSHRL was amended, and now a plaintiff only needs to show that they were treated less well because of their race. You don't have to prove the conduct was severe or pervasive.

And being subjected to Nazi salutes and massacomments is definitely being treated less well. It's a much easier bar to clear. So now he can argue that even if the harassment wasn't pervasive enough for federal law, it certainly altered his work conditions enough to violate state law. It's a very smart move that makes his state law claim much more likely to survive. So how did Mavis and Brown respond to this new, much stronger complaint? They filed another motion to dismiss. They argued he still hadn't fixed the problems.

They said that too none the gap between the slurs and the firing is still too long, and the remarks are still stray. And they went after his information and belief argument about Brown's influence. They did. Their lawyers argued it was just pure speculation. They basically said, Kittle is just guessing that Brown was involved. And that's not enough to meet the plausibility standard required to keep a lawsuit going. So it all comes down to this one question. Is Kittles' theory plausible?

or is it just speculation? That's the entire fight at this stage. And it's up to the judge to decide if the combination of his great performance, the explicit warnings, the weak pretext, and the suspicious timing is enough to make his story plausible enough to proceed to discovery. So when we step back, what does all of this mean? We've gone down a very deep, very technical legal rabbit hole here. It means that Kittle had a story that was, you know, undeniably compelling.

But the only reason his case survived at all initials, was the retaliation claim, which was based almost entirely on that tight timeline between his complaint and his firing. While the core discrimination in hostile environment claims crashed against these really high legal walls like the stray remarks doctrine and the severe or pervasive standard. But his response, pivoting to the more lenient New York state law and trying to build that bridge of causation, it's really a masterclass and how plaintiffs have to adapt to survive these early procedural challenges. And that difference between the federal and state law is a huge

takeaway. For anyone listening who works in New York, the state law offers much broader protection against a hostile work environment. It absolutely does. The claims that tend to survive are often the retaliation ones because they punish the company for failing to protect an employee who speaks up, regardless of whether the initial discrimination can be fully proven. It's about punishing the cover-up, so to speak. But this whole case really underscores one fundamental challenge for any employee in this situation. Proof. It always comes down to evidence. And that brings us to the final provocative thought here. The most critical piece of this whole puzzle might just be that 30-day data retention policy. The fact that the audio and video evidence was wiped. Exactly. Kittle asked

for it. He wanted the proof of the slurs of the salute. And he was told the system automatically overrode it after just 30 days. So you, the listener, have to consider this. How can an employee meet a strict legal burden, like proving something was severe or pervasive, when the best possible evidence is systematically destroyed by corporate policy less than a month after the incident. Think about it. If that RTO had existed, if it captured what Kittle alleges, it could have changed everything. It might have forced a settlement immediately. But without it, he's left relying on memory. And memory can always be attacked in court. So the company's own data policy becomes a massive barrier to justice.

Whether it's intentional or not, it functions that way. It's a powerful reminder of how technology policies can create huge procedural hurdles for people trying to hold employers accountable for acts of harassment that are often, by their very nature, brief and hard to prove. That's a really powerful point to end on a fascinating look at the intersection of law, technology, and workplace justice. Thank you for walking us through this incredibly complex, deep dive. pleasure. There's always so much to unpack

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