EverydaySpy Podcast - CIA Spies EXPOSE the Future of AI | EverydaySpy Podcast Ep. 22

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

Technology doesn't just change your everyday life, it also transforms the battlefield and the face of human conflict. From the Civil War to the War in Ukraine, technology continues to serve both to enhance and destroy human life. As parents and former CIA operatives, Jihi and I are always watching for new innovations in the tech sector. And recent creations from grenade-dropping drones to self-driving cars speak to a strange new era we face as parents, professionals, and partners. If you are as curious about technology as we are, don't miss this conversation. And as a bonus, stay to the end to find out what happens when a covert officer dies in the line of duty… Find your Spy Superpower: https://everydayspy.com/spyquiz Learn more from Andy: https://everydayspy.com/ Join the SpyTribe: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EverydaySpy/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/everydayspy/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/EverydaySpy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What are the ethical implications of potentially taking the kill order away from a person and putting it into a machine? If you could automate that into a single AI device that basically has all of the rules, the laws of war, in a single index, it can almost instantaneously make a decision and then fire with perfect control and perfect accuracy. And even if the weapon was left behind, the risk of loss of life is almost nothing. The future of what combat could look like is mindboggling. My love, Poland is withdrawing support for Ukraine. I saw that. I don't know if you saw that.

Yes. Oh, my, that's their strongest NATO ally. There is no country in Europe that hates Russia more than Poland. And Poland has chosen to stop sending weapons to you. Which I find interesting because the reasoning they gave was we need to stop sending weapons to Ukraine so that we can equip ourselves with the most modern of weapons. But if Russia wins Ukraine, I don't see how that's good for Poland. So I thought it was an interesting reasoning. It's the same thing that's happening in the U.S. Congress, too.

I mean, even in the U.S., you're seeing legislators have conflict over next steps in Ukraine. For sure, there is Ukraine fatigue happening right now, which is super interesting considering that Ukraine just had this super advanced assault that they ran on Crimea. I mean, they've had some pretty incredible field results from coordinating special forces and using advanced technology from weapons that they've received from the West, but also kind of advanced tactics that have been enabled by new technologies in the world. To be honest with you, I'm kind of shocked because it's the kind of stuff that you only really see from First World militaries, and they pulled it off. They pulled off attacks that Russia has failed to be able to play. pull off and their assaults on Ukraine. It really speaks to like the tenacity and capability of

those Ukraine forces. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's been amazing to watch. I mean, I definitely agree with you. It's just, you know, it's interesting because it's been two years, but it's also only been two years. So in the history of warfare, you know, everybody hopes for a quick battle, you know, a quick, you know, conflict. But in the history of warfare, this is really, you know, a short period of time that we're into this. Yeah, it's true. I mean, the global war on lasted more than 20 years. Our conflict in Vietnam lasted, what, the better part of a decade. So we really are just a few years into this conflict in Ukraine and Russia, a protracted

long-term conflict. And for lots of people, I think we expected it, I mean, I certainly expected it to be over very quickly. All the leading analysts in the world expected it to be over quickly. CIA, MI6, we're all anticipating just two to three weeks of time. And here we are, you know, pushing. closer to what, 20, 20 months now. It started in February, so 18 months.

And this thing is still kind of very much in the middle of where it's going next. And the thing that's making it possible, the reason that Ukraine has been able to withstand such incredible pressure from Russia really does boil down to advanced weapons and advanced technology. Russia is pushing with Soviet-era weapons, right?

diesel, diesel engine, diesel powered ships, old school Soviet aircraft. I mean, Soviet era technology to avoid radar, which doesn't work anymore. And I mean, their anti-aircraft weapons are the most advanced stuff that they have. And the anti-aircraft weapons are part of what Ukraine's targeting. So you're quite systematically taking out Russia's most advanced technology and then leaving them to defend with their oldest technology. It's kind of, it's a, it's a, It's a brilliant strategy that really could only be born of the kind of partnership that Ukraine has with the West, or at least the partnership they've had with the West, but now with France withdrawing support and Poland withdrawing support and the U.S. debating whether or not they should continue to support them. I mean, the future is very unclear. Right. Yeah. It is interesting because there have been a number of conflicts in the last, you know, two decades as technology has been advancing.

but they haven't been at this level where we can actually see the modernized weapons at use in use. And so, you know, watching this conflict play out. And, you know, it really brings up a lot of questions of, you know, what will warfare look like in the next 15 years? What will the role of soldiers be? What will the role of autonomous weapons be? You know, and that's acknowledging because there is an active war going on.

I am certain there's all this R&D that's being massively funded right now as people watch it play out and start to realize the potential on the capabilities and what's working, what's not working, what's possible. And what are the ethical implications? Right. Right. Of essentially taking the kill, potentially taking the kill order away from a person and putting it into a machine. I mean, there's a part of me that gets really excited about this because, you know, when a sniper, for example, When a sniper sits on a perch with their range finder, right, their partner, the choice to shoot or not shoot, the lethal decision essentially comes down to a radio call and a system of backup communication strategies in case the radio call isn't answered, right? So the inefficiency of that is mind-boggling because you have a human being who has to confirm with another human being who has to make a radio call with a third human being, and all of that can be penetrated by adversarial sigans.

All of that can be lost in an instant, right? Like a target can present itself getting out of a car and then getting into another car and then boom, the opportunity is lost. If you could automate that into a single AI device that basically has all of the rules of law or all of the rules, the laws of war in a single index, it can instant, almost instantaneously make a decision and then fire with perfect control and perfect accuracy. And even if the weapon was left behind, the risk of loss of life is almost nothing because there's no sniper on site. There's no range finder on site. There's no human being on site. You could basically perch a weapon there to just sit there for months. And it would even be able to do its own self-checks to make sure that it doesn't have any maintenance issues.

Like the future of what combat could look like is mind-boggling. Yeah, it's interesting because like you were saying, if you could upload all the laws of war, right? You would also have to upload all these algorithms to help the machine make a decision. So in advance, somebody would have to decide what level of collateral is acceptable, right? So if it's a human being and they spot, you know, if it's a human being flying a drone, which, you know, is still human being controlled and they spot their target, but they identify that they're like family of five children is in the car with them, they can make the call right then and there, you know, to wave off or to go ahead and accept that level of collateral.

Somebody in advance, if you're a program, a machine is going to have to decide what level of collateral is acceptable on collateral meaning human life, non-combatants, you know, infrastructure, if it's a hospital, is it, you know, if it's a hospital, but it's been converted into the headquarters of, you know, a terrorist organization or a military, you know, squadron, like, you know, though how it becomes complex, right? Right. And I don't know that human beings are great. I mean, just think about the regulatory aspects of creating autonomous weapons. We're not even close to being there. These weapons exist. And we don't, there's barely a conversation happening besides people saying we should be really careful, but no laws have been passed. Like no, nothing's been regulated. So they'll start being used before any of that happens. And so it does create these ethical dilemmas. you know, on the one hand, but then on the other hand, people are saying they could save soldiers' lives. Then if you have machine against machine, what's the point? Just look at what's happening in Ukraine, right? So Ukraine is the first war, the first military conflict, hot conflict in history to basically see this combination of trench warfare from World War I and this completely experimental new drone-based warfare, which is very unique to the Ukraine conflict.

And the drone capabilities that have been innovated in the last two years, I mean, they're not, they weren't pulled out of the halls of R&D. They were literally born in the battlefield. Yeah. Taking a DJI Chinese drone built for commercial uses and then outfitting it with like a little grenade and a pin that could be pulled while keeping the weight and balance of the drone the same, so that you could deliver lethal weapons into and behind the trench line. Yeah.

Like this is something that nobody, I don't think anybody was invested. I can't see Northrop Grumman investing in this back in 2012. But now all of a sudden, it's here and it's present, and it really does kind of give us a sense of what the future of warfare is going to look like. And you hear the reports from the Foreign Legion. You hear the reports from Ukrainian soldiers. You see the reports reported on Russian media. Like the constant hum of invisible drones, basically, buzzing around at night.

I mean, it's and the people created it. The Ukrainians creating the drones. The Chinese are creating the drones. There are Russian drones. There are Turkish drones. Holy smokes. It's a completely new era. of conflict.

It'll never look the way it looked before. Because if you can, we were the first ones to outfit a UAV with lethal capability during the global war on terror, right? When we started mounting missiles to, I think it was, what was the drone, the predator drone? We started mounting air to ground missiles on UAVs. But those were still basically airplanes, right? They're huge.

We're talking about pocket drones, drones that you could carry in a backpack. right now. So like it's the world is such an interesting place and my biggest fear to be very honest is what happens when the war the hot war ends. Do we start seeing these like back country homegrown lethal drones become a tool for terrorists? Exactly. A tool for regional conflicts. A tool for border disputes like holy canole. This is crazy. Yeah. So just like you said, I mean, and watching the like the battleground innovation has been amazing. But then it does lead to the question of, you know,

what does the future of all of this look like? Because it's not just state actors who are going to pick up on the technology. I mean, drones aren't a military technology. They're used by lots of people all over the world and the fact that they can be innovated to be a weapon. You know, it's a scary thought that and the idea that, you know, If you take down one of these, if you have an autonomous weapon and it's taken down, suddenly your adversary has that technology, right?

Yes. Yeah. It's not like if you kill a soldier, like that soldier's dead. You're getting nothing from them. But you take down a machine. That's yours now. All that technology, right? The intel value.

The intel calculation is unbelievable. Because, I mean, you and I both participate in the global war on terror. So we have been up close and personal with the question of collateral damage. Man, I can't tell you how many times I have watched the heat signature of a group of terrorists coming in and out of a vehicle, in and out of a house, in and out of a cave. And we couldn't make a lethal decision in real time because we weren't quite sure who was the thermal signature that we were watching. Yeah, was the target actually there and worth the collaboration? damage that was around him. Yeah. Exactly. Like, like, it could be the head of that terrorist cell, or it could be his brother and he's inside the cave, or it could be that, like, this is his entire

family, and they're all non-combatants. And, but we don't, we don't know for sure. The intel is mixed. You know, we don't have high confidence, and the best eyes that we have in the sky are thermal or I are. And, and that's, that's a, that's a hard place to be. But you're right. Like, when a human being makes the call and a human being is in the field, when that human being is terminated, they are not a source of intelligence. Correct. And it was a big issue for us because we were like, some terrorists we want you to terminate.

Right. Some terrorists, we want you to capture so we can interrogate. Right. And that was the same story in Vietnam. It was the same story in the Gulf War. For sure, it's the same story right now in Ukraine and Russia. Right. Because you want an intelligence source as well as a captive.

from the conflict. When you automate the machines, you essentially would have to also automate some sort of self-destruct or some sort of data destruction capability into the machine itself. Not to mention the fact that you're going to have to control all of these over some sort of wireless signal, which means it could be hacked, it could be penetrated, it could be turned against you. It really does kind of make the case for why, you would want to bring artificial intelligence into the conflict because artificial intelligence can operate independent of an outside signal. So you negate the need, you take away the risk of the signal being hacked and the weapon being hijacked when you have it literally be autonomously controlled by AI. Right.

But you make it, the AI has to be really well built to make sure that the weapon doesn't turn against its own controller. right so you you take it out into the field to be deployed you turn it on we let it run its course for three months we come back to collect it in three months and all of a sudden it's like pointed at us yeah it's like the it's the worst nightmare of like your your mars rover or your you know satellites that that go out there the drones that go out in space to collect it's like them turning against you it's sci-fi stuff seriously like all the sci-fi novels where they like take a creature, like the aliens movie, when the company wants to take the aliens and like turn them into weapons. But you know, they're going to turn on you at some way.

Like they're not. But yeah, it's very sci-fi. Which, you know, of course, is super interesting. You know, it's all very sci-fi, but at the same time, we've seen a lot of sci-fi come to real life. Like, do you remember how Charlie used to call his angels? On a video conference calling the call. Yeah. And now look at us, right? And like we used to rely on laser guided munitions where, where someone stood in the field and pointed a laser at a target. And then a pilot came in and

flew and dropped a laser guided bomb. Well, now we live in a world where like the laser can be sent from miles away and a cruise missile can be launched from miles away at, you know, supersonic speeds. Like it's, it's kind of amazing. how fast sci-fi becomes reality in the world and in the evolution of technology that exists right now. Yeah. And I think, you know, what we're going to watch unfold, because I think there's no question that, you know, autonomous weapons will be used and AI will be used in warfare. You know, it's going to happen. So I think what we're going to watch unfold and the big questions people need to be asking themselves at a leadership level are how are they going to be used. Because, you know, I think you and I have talked about before how an intelligence, you can't really replace the human, right? You can have all the technical intelligence collection capabilities in the world, but you can never replace the human intelligence collector.

You can never replace human, right? Human intelligence itself. It's so valuable. You can't get it any other way. And in warfare, it's going to be the same thing. You can never remove the human components. And I think you will never be able to really remove the boots on the ground component of warfare either because. Yeah. And I would say that what we're saying here, and maybe this is just me saying it, maybe it's not you saying it. But what you can do is you can reduce the redundancy of it because, you know, World War II, the reason you had so many.

soldiers was really for redundancy. Because you knew that there was a certain amount of those soldiers that were going to be killed in action. And the only way that you were going to have enough of a combat force moving forward was to have redundancy. And in the human world that we come from, the human intelligence world that we come from, the reason you have so many case officers, so many human intelligence collectors, is really for redundancy. Because in order to meet your threshold of required intelligence, you need to have a lot of people doing the work. As you bring in technology, as you bring in advanced weaponry, as you bring in new forms of technical intelligence collection, what you can do is you can maintain a high level of confidence in what you collect with fewer redundancies. And that's really interesting and that's really, I think it's really encouraging because the fewer redundancies you put out in the field, like when you're talking about human lives, the fewer human lives you put out in the field, the fewer human lives you risk losing.

So, I mean, we saw it with a global war on terror. Fewer soldiers equipped with higher tech resulted in fewer deaths. You know, 20 years, we lost 7,000 people. I know that every one of those lives is a real life, but that's not like any ratio of life loss that we've seen in any other conflict in American history. Remember the Civil War? Yeah. The Civil War lost, I think it lost 600,000 people.

Is that right? Thousands of people. It was, it's amazing considering what's. the population actually was back then. And that was short. That conflict was short in terms of what we're talking about in total years of spends in conflict, right? So technology reduces the need for redundant lives and the loss, the reduction in

redundant lives results in less casualties. But it also makes it so that the lives that are engaged are really, really valuable, highly trained, highly sophisticated career professionals. That's why the U.S. military is full of military professionals, whereas the militaries that you see in China and Russia, larger scale militaries, they're not nearly as professionalized as we are. Right. Or countries that, you know, have mandatory military service for the first year or two, right? So, you know, I just had the thought if when you were talking, you know, one of the, you know, the pros that people say for, for using machines in warfare to replace soldiers is, you know, less loss of life.

But if weapons are meant to be in part, you know, there's offensive and defensive, and if weapons are meant to be in part a deterrent against war, what is the deterrent to moving to warfare where less lives are lost? Because then governments are like, you know what? less lives are lost. Like, it's a cleaner, it's a cleaner war. So then, you know, the, this, the dark part of my brain, like the dark part of my mind. Uh-huh.

Look at you. I can see you laughing at that concept already. Yeah, because I already know that part. If, if I were to sit on a presidential cabinet in a time of war where we have automated soldiers, we, you don't kill equipment. You don't destroy equipment. You go for the heart. You go to stab people in their most vulnerable areas.

So if two armies are fighting on a battlefield with a bunch of robots and drones, that's not where they're the most vulnerable. Where they're the most vulnerable is where there are human lives. So what you're going to find is potentially more atrocities acted out to deter the enemy from continuing the battle. Very similar to what we did with the Japanese. in World War II. Right.

We could have continued to fight in the field for years against the Japanese, but instead we took a nuclear weapon to the centers of industry, which were also the centers of population. Right. To immediately deter them from continuing the conflict. Right. That would be my bigger concern. All the robotic soldiers, all the automated weapons, all the tanks that drive themselves, all the cruise missiles that self-direct, all of that stuff and more can be created.

and can be engaged in conflict. But when a country really wants to win a war, it's not going to do it through a war of attrition of technology. It's going to cut to the chase. It's going to strike at the heart of its enemy. And that will always be human lives. Yeah. And I think something that we have seen in the Russia-Ukraine war is attack.

And, you know, if you can be hopeful and more, the more hopeful side of it would be that, you know, infrastructure would be attacked, resources would be attacked to, you know, cut the country down or the opponent down at the root. So in theory, you could still minimize loss of life, but then cripple the actual functionality of that state actor. Except that, yeah, when you attack infrastructure, what are you attacking? Well, you're attacking the people. Right. And you're not innocent of this, right? Ukraine's launching drones into sovereign Russia.

And they're targeting commercial buildings, right? Like, are they attacking infrastructure? Yes, they're attacking the financial capability and the financial centers of Russia, but they're attacking civilians. Right. Right? Just like Russia's launching cruise missiles that blow up electric grids

and blow up, you know, water treatment facilities and, et cetera. Are they attacking infrastructure? Yes, but the people paying the price, the people suffering. freezing and dying of bad water they're civilians yeah non-combatants so it's again it's it's it I I see what you're saying and I love you for your hopefulness I really love you for your hopefulness because if it was just me in the world it'd be a dark freaking world we have to we're the yen and the yang we have to balance it yeah thank you for being my yang um so then what You know what's funny, too, just a quick transition, it's our kids are so similar to us

because our daughter is the dark evil one like me. Yes. And our son is the absolute ray of hope and sunshine like you. Yes, they really are. Yeah, thank goodness for the balance. It's funny because, you know, it's so interesting to me how, you know, just I got to jump into parenthood because I miss the kids. I'm traveling. I'm on a TV shoots. You know, I'm gone for weeks at a time. I was looking at my calendar today for the holiday season and it's sad, my love. I know your calendar well. Yes. I'll come home just in time for Thanksgiving. I'll leave when the

turkey's still warm. Yep. And I'll be gone until like two days before Christmas. Yep. And I'm going to fly in and I'll probably do everything wrong for the five days of Christmas. great new ears and then be on my way again. And it's, it's heartwrenching to do this on the holidays with you guys. But, but what's really funny to me is that, you know, our son, who's the ray of sunshine, is the one that plays Army soldiers. And he's the one that researches swords. And he's the one that loves guns. And he's the one that'll sit in the backyard and shoot BBs with me, right? He's the one that taught his sister how to use a BB gun. Yeah. Right? These are my favorite photos. are the two of them lined up with their safety gear on shooting BB's downrange.

Oh, my gosh. Meanwhile, our daughter, who, like, she is the, she's the evil priest from Indiana Jones Temple of Doom, right? Kalima! Carlyma! That is her. But she'll play with Barbies, and she'll play with LOL dolls, and she'll look like the sweetest innocent thing in the world until you cross her. Yep.

There's a little bit of that new. There's a little bit of Kalima in you. I know. The world doesn't see it because they don't see you when the cameras are off, but I know. Well, what's funny about, it's true, what's funny about me and our daughter is that we really are kind of, we tend to the extremes and we need somebody to pull us back to center. I don't know if you remember when we were dating. When we were first dating, I used to make you drive all over the place because. it was DC and I hate driving in DC. But I have like internal temperature issues. And I'm from

Florida. So I wasn't used to a place with four seasons. So I was like the seasons were changing. I would like be warm and then I'd be cold. And to fix it, I would like turn the dial all the way up, like all the way hot or all the way cold. And you would slowly try to reach over and adjust it to the center or just like one degree higher. And I'm, I'm like, I am freezing right now. And you're like, one degree higher is going to make a difference. I promise you, just give it 15 minutes. I'm like, I'm shaking in my boots.

I was freezing my ass off. And you're like, I promise you, just trust me. And over the last, you know, how long have we been together? 15 years, I have finally started recognizing that if I make it one degree warmer, it actually works. I don't know that you've actually changed. I'm pretty sure you still pound that thermostat all hot, all cold. But then later on, I do kind of see you adjusting it a little bit.

Yeah. But, you know, I'm willing to bet that your temperature issues are not unique to you. And I'm also willing to bet that my frustration with how you handle the thermostat is probably not unique to me because you want instant results. Like, I get it, my love. I totally get it because you are a, you are a process. oriented person who values results. So when you're cold, you're like, I don't want to be cold anymore. And I think in your brain, you're like, even if I was sweating right now, it would be better

than being cold. So you turn everything up to full heat. Because I want to be warm now. And then like three minutes later, we're sweating. And then you're like, why am I sweating? I just want to be cool. And then you pop it all the way down to full cold again. Like, oh my, especially in rental cars, rental cars are a, they are a driveable comedy skit with you. Because you, you're You swear at the car because you don't know how its thermostat works because some of them are digital. Some of them have like a left and right thermostat. They're all like way newer than the car we own. We were in Colorado and it had heating seats.

So the seats would get hot and you kept turning the AC down because you were like, why am I so hot right now? I just wanted to be cold. And I'm like, your seat is on. You have the temperature. The seat is hot and your air is cold and your body feels confused. But you know, I think this like very personal example of like how you're like of us being the yin and the yang, right? I think that the world is full of yin and yang, right? There's no like for the

most part, I think historically we have been able to count on, you know, leadership having a counterbalance there. So all of the extreme world. I think, you know, there have been some really horrific things in history and we've come close to more horrific things. But throughout history for the most part, there's been a balance, right? So the idea that we're going to go fully autonomous and destroy each other with, you know, because we're using Skynick, you know, basically, like, I don't, I think that the probability of that is low. because the people like me who want immediate results, let's just, you know, let's just wipe the problem off the map. They're going to be counterbalanced by other people who are like, that's really not the best idea for a number of reasons, right? And all it takes is the one conversation to pull them back from the ledge to keep those things, those atrocities from happening.

So again, I have hope. Yeah, no, and it's funny. Like, I tease you, I tease you about little things like the thermostat and I tease you about your hope and everything. else. But the truth is, oftentimes the one thing that prevents us from making a really bad decision is when somebody just offers a single question, a single thought, a single statement that we hadn't originally thought of. And when that question comes up, you're like, oh, that's a good question. And that can keep us from walking ourselves off the ledge, right? I had a really good friend in college. And when I was at the Air Force Academy, I had a really good friend.

and we used to make horrible decisions together. And like we actually, even at 21 and 22 years old, we were mature enough to be like, you know, we're kind of like gasoline and a match when we're together. And even though we get along and even though we're like, we were not yin and yang, we were like yin squared. It was bad. So we kind of actually started taking steps.

to not be around each other so much. Like, even though we were friends, we realized we were not friends that were advancing ourselves. And now, you know, 15, 25, however many years later, how many years has it been? 20 years, geez. Many years later, we reconnect and we joke about it, but we look at our families.

I mean, you met them when we were traveling recently. Like, he's got a beautiful family with four kids, and they've been married for 12 years. and I've got a beautiful family with two kids and we've been married for 13 years. And honestly, I feel like we both would have probably ended in a fiery motorcycle accident had we stayed friends back in 2004, 2005. So I think you're exactly right. There really is something powerful about having people that are different who are on a team together. Like our marriage.

Our marriage works because we're so different. Yeah. Right. the United States government works. I know that we're facing another shutdown. Yeah. And it seems like we're facing a new shutdown every quarter. Yeah.

But it works because we're constantly pulling ourselves apart, right? We're constantly in conflict. What we need to do is learn how to turn that conflict into something more constructive. Yes. Right. And I feel like you and I are the thing that we do so well in our marriage is always try to find a way to turn our conflict into something constructive. Yeah. Right? And that's, it's just, it's good. I don't sometimes, one of the other things that comes to my mind is when you, when you want to destroy your diet, like, when you skip lunch or when you like have a cup of coffee in the morning and forget to eat breakfast.

Yeah, well, usually skipping a meal isn't my problem. It's usually the extra. You're the skip, you're the meal skip right. I'm the, uh, put another pancake on there. want an extra meal and it's going to just destroy your body right like you want to I think the other day you were talking about like all I want right now is a giant fatty hamburger and french fries remember that conversation yep and I was like oh my gosh my love if you eat that you're going to feel like garbage for the next three hours and I think we were getting ready to take the kids somewhere or we're going to ready to go on a date one of the two and and you were like unless you put something in front of me right now, I am going to eat garbage. And I was like, let me cut up a pair and let me,

you know, grab some tortilla and, and, you know, I'll grab a kombucha and whatever. Just give this woman's calories so that she has a chance to make a better decision. It was an acceptable substitute. Marriage is marriage is the great equalizer. I'll tell you what. Oh, yeah. Because, you know, like for as cool as some people think I am, they would laugh. ass off when they saw me scrambling to cut up a pair for you and grab a handful of dates, right? It would, it's comical. If they saw what I did for our daughter, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I don't even, even I were mine that that. But I do think one of the big lessons I've learned from marriage, which applies to so many other things, is that, you know, when we're talking about

how much stronger a team is when the people on the team are very different and that that doesn't mean it's easy right so it's good that our government has so many different people in it so many differing opinions and so many differing you know perspectives and that's good it never means it's going to be easy and it shouldn't be easy. We should, you know, we and, you know, people in government or people in offices should be having hard conversations. You know, that's what really creates the most impact as you're pushing forward, right? If everything's too easy, I mean, I think we've been reading a number of business books lately that all of them say consensus is not what you're looking for. You're looking for the right decision, not for consistent.

census among the group, right? So the fact that it's challenging is a good sign, right? It means it means that there's growth happening. You just have to make sure that you're pushing forward and not stagnating, right, and not stomping all over each other. Which is why I will not let you retire to a rocking chair anytime soon. Even though I know it's all you want to do in the whole world is just a rocking chair and a book. You don't even want a hundred. husband. You just want a boy in the house when you have an itch, when you need a pear cut up. That's really all you want. You want a book in a rocking chair and a quiet backyard. Pretty much. You get in there, though. I'll have one for you.

My love, I feel like this conversation has absolutely flown by. Yeah. I miss you so much. Thank you for, thank you. I'm sorry that our dates are taking place now over YouTube. It's okay. But I really appreciate this time with you. And it's so. hard to be away from you guys. Yeah. But let me ask you, did we, did you have a chance to look at a question from somebody in our spy tribe? Do we have a question that we can answer today? Yeah, somebody actually asked a really interesting question about when a covert operative is captured and killed overseas on a mission is the family notified. And if so, what information are they given? Which I think is a hard question. And I find it fascinating because when you walk and

to the main entrance of the CIA, the first thing you see are the stars on the wall, right? And every one of those represents an operative who was killed on a mission. And all those people had families. There's a whole process that goes into, you know, not just CIA, right? It's the same thing with, you know, like Delta Force members that, you know, have been friends of ours, the stories that they've told, you know, military personnel. There's all kinds of people who serve who go on, dangerous missions, killed overseas.

And then I think it's a great question of what happens with the families. Yeah, I think the unfortunately, I think the short answer here is that if the family is unwitting of their involvement with the national security infrastructure of the United States, I'm pretty sure if the family is unwitting, meaning the family didn't know that that person was an undercover operative, then they never know. I don't think it's ever disclosed to them afterwards. And a big part of that is because the circumstances surrounding the operation were so sensitive that in life, it couldn't be disclosed. So it certainly can't be disclosed upon death.

So it's sad. It's sad because there are absolutely stars on the wall at CIA where the families have never known that that star on the wall belongs to them. Yeah. And I think like you're saying, you know, it really, there's, you know, the concept of need to know when you have a security clearance. And if your family doesn't have the security clearance, they don't get to know, you know, many details at all about what you were actually doing. It's unfortunate, but it's definitely a part of what American families sign up for when they agree to go on these missions and to serve their country. in this way and I think for you and I that's been something that has you know both of us working at the CIA at the same time was always a benefit for us

because we knew that should anything happen we would have the clearance to know what happened for the most part I mean there's still you know we could have had different clearances if it was a special project anyways but for the most part you would know right you'd be able to talk to somebody yeah and we that was a determining factor in why we left at the same time too. Yeah. Because we had considered, could I leave while you stay?

And you very quickly see how it just breaks down. Like when you don't have that level of transparency and that level of openness, I mean, any married couple can understand that. Imagine a marriage, and many, many people do. Imagine a marriage where you compartmentalize things from your spouse. Right. Can that be a healthy marriage? Sure.

Can that be a successful marriage? Sure. But will it take an enormous amount of trust and effort? Absolutely. It takes so much trust and effort to be able to give each other that much freedom and flexibility and secrecy. And that was just, that was a world that you and I didn't want to mess with. Right. When we were, when we were engaged at CIA.

But you also made a great point because, you know, it's not the CIA that decides not to tell the family. Right. It's the officer themselves that says yes to the operation. It's the officer themselves that says, I understand the risks of what operation I'm taking on, right? And let's not forget, the officer oftentimes says yes to that exact mission because they understand the benefit it has on their family.

Yeah. Like when you put yourself, nobody puts themselves in harm's way for a kick and an adrenaline rush. That's only in the movies. In real life, we sit there and we ask ourselves, like, what's the reason that I'm doing? doing this. I joined CIA very much with my sisters and my mother's face in my mind. And I was like, I get a chance to serve them. I get a chance to serve the American people.

I get a chance to serve human beings that I have touched, that I felt, that I that I hold, that I hug. And that's what that's what got me started. That's also a big part of, you know, why I became so discouraged over time when I realized that, you know, different presidents are different executives and different policymakers set the policy for what we collect. So while you might sign up in order to protect people, you find yourself stealing secrets about rice trade and asparagus crops. And you're like, why am I doing this? Right. Yeah, I agree. So, you know, it's unfortunate that the families of fallen officers don't always, you know, can't always know the full truth. But, you know, they have to take heart that their, you know, their loved one was doing something really important for the national security of our country. And for the protection of their own family.

Yeah. Right. Like, I know it's, it does, I feel like, I feel like there's no good answer for us to share here because the truth of it is just so frustrating. Especially for all the men and women out there who have had that experience where they, they, they, they. suspect and there's so many so many stories that people have sent to us I think my grandfather was a spy I think my father was a spy my uncle did this my my sister my brother died and this is what they told us and you know it's sad and it's frustrating because you know we read the stories and we're like you're probably right yeah

we don't know and your uncle your brother your father your grandfather they chose the operation knowing full well that if they were unsuccessful, if they lost their life, you would never know the truth. And the sacrifice was worth it for them. So the best way to bring them honor is to accept that they made that decision. You can absolutely be suspicious. You can absolutely wonder. You can absolutely explore and do your investigative efforts to see if you can uncover the truth. But if it keeps anybody awake at night, if anybody feels a hole in their heart, I would hope the thing that fills that hole is understanding that the loved one that you lost, they made that choice to be a hero. Yeah. What a heavy question, my love. Thank you very much

for bringing that one up. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for not staying at CIA when I wanted to leave. You're welcome. See, I choose you, babe. That's from a movie. What was that from? I hope that wasn't Brokeback Mountain. But I feel like that may have been a brokeback mountain quote. I couldn't sit through all that movie. It was just so dramatic.

You are absolutely the woman for me. Folks, thank you so much for joining us today. It was such an awesome opportunity to talk to my lovely wife and to share this conversation with you. And, you know, the time really did fly by for me. I hope it flew by for you too. What I want you to do is if you enjoyed what we talked about, leave us a comment, give us a thumbs up, share with us what you like, tell us what you didn't like, if you want to tell us what you didn't like, so we don't do it anymore.

But there's so much that we get a chance to share with you that happens in our heads and our hearts, and we just love this time that we get together and that we get to include you in this time together with us. If you want to know more about how we approach life, about how we solve some of the hard subjects that happen, whether it's marriage related or career related, make sure you open up the description, take a look at some of the links in there. There's a link to our Everyday Spy quiz. If you want to see what kind of personality you are built with, what your personality brings you as far as a specialized superpower at CIA through a spy mission operational lens. Make sure you click on that quiz, visit our homepage, come see what we're all about, or just share

the podcast with a friend, click the share button and send it to a friend or a family on social media because we really love being able to share our insights and our thoughts and how we kind of hack our way through everyday life with you. It's been a fantastic opportunity to share this conversation with you. My love, I miss you so much. We do too. And I'm already excited for the next Zoom call that we have because I'm not going to be home for like another 10 days. Yeah, it's okay. We'll keep it going. Thank you, my love. I miss you badly. Folks, thank you so much for joining us, and I'll see you next time.