EverydaySpy Podcast - CIA Spy: The Dark Conversation Hack That Makes Any Woman Want You

Episode Date: June 27, 2026

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There's a rule of thumb that CIA teaches us that's scary but simple, right? And that rule of thumb is that you are either in control or you are under control. There is no other option, right? And it's one of those simple binary dichotomies that, you know, we all use to teach people a simple truth. There's, in reality, there are lots of other gradations between the two. But when you take that at face value, it's really about understanding that every day you have to choose whether to take control or whether not to take control. And understand that if you choose not to take control, you're giving control to someone else. And when you talk about influence, Jonathan, it's a perfect example because you hear people talk about influence all the time. And there's books about influence and there's

gurus who teach you how to build influence and business coaches who teach you how to build influence. and you also hear the word persuasion, and there's YouTube videos about persuasion, and there's TikTok videos about persuasion. Persuasion and influence, oftentimes people misunderstand them as the same thing, when they're two very different things, right? Persuasion requires that you put active energy into someone in person, right, and that you were using emotional ploys to persuade their way of thinking. Influence happens when you are not with somebody, but they are still recalling your knowledge or your belief or your ideas. Or your lies. Or your lies, exactly. M. So persuasion comes before influence. And you have to invest in mastering persuasion if you ever want to be a person

of influence because the influence is the roof on the house, but all the other structure of the house is built on persuasion. Visit BetMGM Casino and check out the newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. BetMDM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly, 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you,

please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2-6-600. to speak to an advisor. Free of charge, BetMGEM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. How do I become a better persuader? First, you need to understand

that people don't care about your point of view, but people care very much that other people understand their own opinions. So if you want to build persuasion, if you want to be persuasive, you have to learn how to understand

and identify what other people value and then demonstrate back to them their own values. If they care about freedom, then you need to highlight freedom. If they care about environmentalism, then you need to talk about environmentalism. If they care about the future of their children, then you need to talk about the future of their children. But if you sit there and talk about, you know, the incredibly high tax rate that you have to pay, when they're worried about how they're going to put food on the table, you're not going to persuade them, right? So if you can learn to meet people where they're at.

Correct. It's something that we call perspective. If you can gain perspective and let go of your own perceptions, then you have a real opportunity to build persuasive appeal, which will turn into long-term influence. What I love about you, Andrew, is that you could have any number of jobs. Like, if I were talking to you right now, I'd be like, this is the best social media influencer manager I've ever met in my life.

And then when you're talking about politics, I'm like, this is the best politician I've ever heard explain Israel to me. Like, when you talk about, like, you know, costume, I'm like, this is the best prosthetic makeup artist I've ever met. You're like that guy. You've got this, like, enormous amount of knowledge about all these different things, but they all go together because of your training. Right. And that's what I find to be so exciting about owning and operating my own company. And my company is an education company, right? I'm essentially a giant international school, and I love that because I get to offer people the opportunity

to learn something new without forcing them or grading them or objectifying them to some arbitrary set of rules, right? It's an invitation to learn instead of a mandate to learn. Are there specific strategies to use to try and uncover what someone values quickly? Is it just listening to them? Let me give you a really great tool that blew my mind when I went to CIA. So I was 27 years old when CIA recruited me. I thought that I was a good conversationalist. I thought I was pretty good with the women. I thought I was like at least a better than average social talent.

And then I realized very quickly that I was a dumbass, right? And a big part of my dumbassery was that I spent most of my time talking about me talking about my history, my experience, my qualifications, my ideas, right? CIA taught me that there's a very simple process to rapidly build trust and influence in other people. And that process involves asking two questions and then making one validating statement. And then after that validating statement, you repeat the same cycle again. and that the process of asking questions and validating other people's ideas subconsciously makes the other person think that you are like them.

And it makes them feel like they are interesting and they are important and they are relevant. And then they have a dopamine rush that makes them feel good being around you. Now you're a dating expert. What's a good intro? like role playing. You're going to ask M. You're going to persuade M. You're going to get influence over her.

I mean, persuasion first. What's like, obviously it's a situation dependent, but are there like, is there a bank that you start with, like your go-toes? Also, I'm an actor, so it's a little, I mean, I'm sure you are also an actor.

I mean, that's kind of what you had to do as a spy. But let's do, can we do it? Let's do it. So M, I'm going to ask you not to act. I'm going to ask you to try to be genuine. I don't even know who I am. So this will be fun. That's all right.

So from what you've shared today, I already know you're a mom, and I already know that you're, and I've watched your channel enough to know that you've been through a divorce, right? So let me start with this M. I will start with, what did you do first thing this morning with your kids? What was the first thing you did with your kids today? My kids didn't stay over last night, and my other one's in college. But do you want me to take an example of when my kid was at my house?

No, I want to start right where you were. Oh, of course you do. I can see what you're doing. Okay, go ahead. I need to meet you where you are, right? Okay. My older son's in college and my younger son is at his dad, so I woke up alone today. What's it like to wake up in an empty house when you know you're a parent? It's two things. It's kind of a sadness, kind of a pull. My son describes it as there's an invisible string, you know, that's very, very long because wherever he is, I'm attached to him. And then there's also an element of kind of like, I don't have to wake up, make a lunch and get the kid on the bus by seven in the morning. So a little bit of relief as well. I swear that you just described what I wonder about my own future. Like when my children leave, I feel like I'm going to be sad, but I also feel like I'm going to be happy. Should I write you a check for a million dollars? Is that what happens?

So what does that mean for your work productivity? Does that make it very easy to work? or does that make it kind of distracting to work? No, I think I'm pretty practiced at it. I've been divorced for 12 years, so I have a rhythm that I've fallen into when I'm alone. What does the rhythm for work look like? Well, it means that I can take my time, you know, making my protein smoothie or whatever I'm going to do for breakfast.

And then I get to sit down, do some emails, you know, look at my phone, check the news just once. Don't want to get obsessed about it. I actually also start my day with a protein smoothie. I use a protein called True Greens. Have you ever heard of them? They're pretty amazing. No. So what's the protein that you use? I use, well, they used to sponsor our podcast. I use Puri, which is a vegan protein powder.

I also use vegan proteins because, first of all, I just find that they are easier to digest. But also, I find that vegan proteins are a more viable solution for long-term muscle growth when I'm older. That was the cycle of three. That was a cycle of three. The last cycle had one question in a follow-up, but I could feel the rapport building. It was happening. How did it feel to you, though? M, you know what was happening to you.

So how did it feel to you? It felt like I was at a bar and a guy was trying to get me into bed. But that's just because that's my fear about people, like, trying to connect with, you know, me. Also, she doesn't like to talk about herself in when asked questions specifically. So, like, you're putting her in a very awkward position. I definitely, I felt like, oh, you're relating to things. You're finding the similarities, not the differences.

So, yeah, I would imagine that it does. It feels like a connection. It feels like you get me. It feels like I want to share more with you. It feels like I'd go on a date with you if you gave me your number. So here's the twisted side of this very effective dating technique. I don't want to make a spy baby yet, though. We need to have three dates first.

He doesn't have protein in the morning. He never imagined his children leaving the house. All of that was fake. No. Actually, the twisted part here is I now know a great deal about you, M. But you still don't know anything new about me from that process, really. Right. I know that you start your day in the morning.

I know that you like to move slow. I know that you have a child in college and a child that's at your husband's house. I know that you used to have a protein sponsor for this. podcast. CIA believes that all people are born with a spy secret superpower. For some people, that means they can win deals for others. They can spot liars. Some can even seduce lovers. I built a free three-minute test to help reveal to you exactly what your secret hidden superpower is. All you have to do is click on the link in the description below. Take the test and start using your spy superpower to stay ahead of 99% of people. Did I not ask enough questions about you? Is that why we're not

going on a date? I grew up on Blossom, M. If you want a date, I will fly to L.A. and take you to dinner. I will just tell my wife, I have to do this. But what you're saying is that what you were able to do was establish rapport, established trust, and this kind of connection without you actually having to reveal anything about yourself so that if that's the relationship you need to establish out in the field, you haven't really given up anything of yourself. Correct. It's a tool that we call informational superiority. Now, you feel good being around me, hopefully, but you don't know anything about me. So when you meet your friend and you say, I met this guy, she's like, tell me about him. You're like, I actually don't know anything about him.

But he's very interested in me, and that's what's most important. But we've all had that moment. We've all had that moment where we realize, I actually don't know anything about that person. That's me and Jonathan. It's like, why are we here? That is now, essentially, Jonathan, what we are able to do now is we just created a systematic process to make that happen all the time with clients, with customers, with possible future dates, with in-laws, with business partners. It's predictable because the human brain is predictable in any

language and any age. So what you've created is a way to get information, but more importantly, for someone to feel comfortable with you that you have shown interest. And because what most people actually want is for someone to be interested in them and to have space held for them and reflected back and finding similarities. There's nothing people love more than, oh my gosh, that person understands me and has little sparks of similarity. You're exactly right. And the way that we talk about it at CIA is that the core need, the fundamental need for human beings that so often goes missed is the need for connection. And that connection is nothing more than feeling seen, feeling heard, and feeling present in a moment with another human being. And it's a very, very powerful concoction when you can

artificially create that sense of connection for somebody else. Because it means that there will never be a lack of people who want to connect with you, even though they don't realize they're not connecting with you on a personal level. I mean, this is also a dangerous tool to use too much, because if you don't know that you're doing it, the user of the tool can, you know, if you're not a spy, can cut themselves off and actually, you know, not form that reciprocal relationship.

These are, you know, to be used carefully. Correct. And that's what you're getting at there is really the difference between what we call a trained person and an untrained person. M talked about narcissists earlier. Narcissists are untrained. They go to the school of on-the-job training. They learn through the school of Hard Knocks.

They don't learn how to genuinely connect with another human being. A trained person learns how to use these skills to gain practical advantages for operational goals, whether that is a goal in your everyday life or a goal in your career or a goal in your personal life. but also a trained person understands that they have to accept genuine connection in order to be optimized as an individual. You have to trust somebody. You have to connect with somebody. Otherwise, you will never be optimized. You will lose that basic core need of human connection. I mean, I'm fascinated about that because the movie version of the spy is someone who is isolated. You know, you have to give up everything in order to join this world. I've seen Liam Neeson do that many times.

You can't have the relationship. You have to be willing to leave at moments notice and everyone in your, and of course, the hero of whatever movie this is, finds the one person they don't want to walk away from and they end up changing their life. But what you're saying is actually, you know, fundamental to optimization is that there has to be a break in the character. You can't be the spy 24-7 or you won't function.

Correct. You have to have, it's a matter of energy. transference. And I don't mean woo-woo, hippie, LA energy. I mean actual, like, national lab scientific energy. Human beings are energetic sources, and we transfer energy to and from each other. There has to be a time when you recharge your energy because so much of your day is spent shedding energy. You put energy into your children. You put energy into your spouse. You put energy into your employees. You put energy into strangers. You put energy into the Uber driver who's making you nauseous, but you don't want to yell at him. Like you put energy out into the world all the time.

You must have a way of recreating or generating energy. And one of the best ways to do that is by being around another energy source where you're in receive mode and they're pouring their energy into you. How do you tell if someone is lying to you? Because their lips are moving, Jonathan, their lips are moving. There's a number of ways to do this. Most of the stuff that you see on TikTok and Facebook and Instagram is not right. It's not about looking for small facial movements. It's actually about things that are much bigger than that.

One of the best things you can do to find out if somebody's lying to you is you can ask them a question about how they feel, right? Ask them a question that we call a feelings question, right? For example, you must have been so happy when you saw the birth of your first child. what happens is you're asking a question that will absolutely create an emotional response. I mean, there's a lot going on down there if you don't take drugs, but sure. I mean, I was a little terrified, but... Oh, you were talking to him. I was like, I was the one doing it. I wasn't really watching, but yeah.

But what ends up happening is you can see the challenge. You can see the effort on their face if they're trying to lie. Lying takes effort, even for the most experienced lie. Liar. Lying takes a lot of effort. So when somebody shows very little effort in their face and their body movements and their in their intonation, there's a good chance they're telling the truth. Or they're a sociopath. But when somebody puts a great deal of effort into their lie, you can actually see it. You can hear the pause. You can see the confusion on their face. You can hear them blubber through their words. So that's just one actual tool that we use. It's not a bulletproof tool, but it's one proven tool to actually see if someone's lying to you.

I'm curious about the pause. Well, I'm curious about two things. The first is what does effort look like? You talked about pause. You talked about like a facial reaction. So I'm curious to hear a little bit more specifically about that. And then also, how does that differ than when you asked me that question and you proposed an emotion to me, which would be a natural emotion?

I felt like I paused for a minute because I was unsure the emotion you presented to me wasn't really authentic to my experience. And so I was almost auditing and trying to say, what would my experience be? So I felt like I kind of looked up and I had my head tilted for a second. And I was like, oh, actually when he was born, it was a difficult birth. And I was kind of terrified. And I was a new dad.

And we did a home birth. And I was like, holy shit, there's a human being now. Like, it wasn't, you know, like looking at your son in the movie and being like, holy, you know, just happiness. It was like a bit of terror too. And that's a very honest answer. And I think your example is one of the reasons why it's not a bulletproof solution. But let's do a real quick field experiment right here, right? Do me a favor. Jonathan, push your glasses up a little higher on your nose just so that we can see your eyes. Perfect. Now, M, can you see Jonathan? Yeah. Okay. Your job, your job is to watch his face

and make observations that you can describe physically. Don't tell me about observations about what you feel. Only tell me objective observations about what you see, okay? Turning off my feelings. Perfect. Perfect. Jonathan, I need you to relax because you're already preparing yourself for an exercise. I was like leading forward a lot. Okay, I'm sitting back.

Go ahead. Okay, I'm going to ask you, the first question I ask you, I just want you to answer honestly. I'm really good at this also. I just want to give you a heads up, Because I grew up in a very emotionally volatile home. And I grew up, no, but I'm saying, I grew up tracking. I grew up, like, super hypervigilant.

I can pick up, like, if someone's uncomfortable about something that, like, they don't want to talk about, I know it from like 50 yards away. So I think I'm going to be very good at this game. Perfect, perfect. Okay. So your job is to watch Jonathan. Jonathan's job is to be Jonathan. Relax. I'm going to ask you a question.

It's going to be an emotional question. And your job is just to tell the truth. All right? What was it like when you met your wife for the first time? This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer. Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool.

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Yeah, I'm so curious. Tell me what you saw, Em. Okay, so what I saw is I saw a miniature like record scratch in his eyes. I saw his eyes kind of like, they didn't freeze, but it was like everything stopped. And I could see like the cog, like the wheels start. turning. That's your emotions. That's your emotions. What did his eyes do? Tell me what they did. Yeah, it looked like they tracked a little bit down and then they stopped. So you may not be as good at this as you think you are. But luckily, we have a replay.

So production team, play the replay. What you actually see is Jonathan's eyes move up and to his left. Now, Jonathan's Canadian, primary language is English, correct? Jonathan. Yeah. So that means that he reads from left to right. So what you just saw him do is he referenced chronology in his memory, trying to find what, when did I even meet my wife? Trying to find the memory. And then you could also see his forehead remained flat. He didn't furrow his eyebrows with confusion or effort. He just looked up to try to find the memory. And then he couldn't resist smiling. He couldn't resist it. And he was talking about how he, he, he was talking about how he, he He had to think hard, and he was talking about how he was trying.

And normally, you might think that somebody who's stalling is lying, but you could see in his face, he was recalling the joy of his wife. I mean, they're not married anymore, but yes. When they first met for the first time, though, that's positive stuff, right? So you could see all of this unhindered emotion. So whatever you were going to say, Jonathan, had a high likelihood of being truthful. I mean, this is the most fascinating little exercise I think we've maybe ever done on this podcast. And I've watched a lot of your content. I don't know if you've done this before.

I haven't seen it. I'm fascinated also by tracking of eye movements, the notion of looking up into the left as a way to find a memory is fascinating. There's a lot of neurological and neuromuscular research that, actually you can use eye movement to reset body patterns. And so to think about tracking that as it relates to how people are thinking is really interesting to me. And again, it's not bulletproof because if you're talking to somebody who maybe is dyslexic or if you talk to somebody who their primary language is Arabic, they're going to learn,

they're going to reference their chronology differently, right? So now the second exercise, Jonathan, you have to relax, but your job is to lie. Your job is to lie, right? And M, your job is to observe the observables, always knowing that we have the replay in case you don't see something exactly right. Okay? All right, Jonathan, another feeling question, but this time I need you to lie, okay? Okay.

Were you afraid that you would be lonely for the rest of your life when you got a divorce? No. What did you see, M? His eyes didn't move. nothing moved. Did you see how rigid the whole thing was? Yeah. This is another great replay.

It's another great replay because you could see the pause that I was telling you about, Jonathan. Remember how I told you, look for a pause? If you were telling the truth, you would have answered right away. I'm guessing that I asked that question and the first thing that went through your head was, yes. And the next thing that went through your head was, I have to lie. No. It's interesting that I actually had to ask my... I wasn't sure if I was or not.

I mean, the biggest thing when I got divorced was actually not, the idea of not living with my child was the biggest thing. That's the first thing that hit me. And there was a moment actually when I first left the house when it was actually one of the hardest parts was I came back and I was visiting the house at a time and I hadn't been gone very long. And my son was maybe five, maybe six at the time. and he had climbed into the washing machine

and was standing in the washing machine because he was too small to reach in and get the clothes and he liked to do his own clothes. And he was in his underwear and nothing else. And he was standing in the washing machine and really proud of himself as he was pulling the wet clothes out and throwing him into the dryer.

And I thought to myself, you only get that moment when you live with your kid. you don't get that in a visit. You don't get that any other time than when there's just unstructured moments. And I remember like that that's what was sort of the forefront.

Like my notion of like what's going to happen to me in relationships was like so far out of my consciousness that like when you asked me that question I had to sort of travel back but also I knew I was supposed to lie so I wanted to answer quickly. So that was a tough question.

It was a really tough question. It was just an emotional question. And I think, your story, which is a gorgeously beautiful story, by the way, the story that you just told, really shows the pause that M and I saw was only probably three quarters of a second. And all of that happened in your brain during that pause. So fast. And that's what makes it so, so viable, such a valuable tool. Because when people lie, they still feel the emotion. And then they have to put effort into not showing the emotion. You're a lot.

eyes didn't move at all. You didn't reference a chronology at all, right? You just stayed locked in on me with a tight jaw until you said, no. It was almost not human. It was like there was an absence of real human emotion in it. And when you told the truth right before that, your face told the story for you, the smiles and the and the grin and the teeth and the memory and the eye movement and the head movement. Like, you'll see it in your own replay, how very much effort is obvious to see. I have two more questions. What's your favorite movie about a spy? My favorite movie about spies is the very first spy kids.

And it's because all spy movies are not real. They're all bad. But I love Antonio Banderas, and I watched spy kids with my kids, and they loved it. So it's just this very fond memory of a spy movie. Because most of the spy movies I watch, especially the very serious. ones, and all I see is just how many things they get wrong and how little of it is true. Okay, my other question in a lot of spy movies, they show like teeny tiny weapons, like teeny, teeny, tiny weapons, is that a real thing? Are there weapons that we don't know

about that are like so tiny and you can hide them in a button? Like, is that a real thing? Yes, there are weapons that are tiny that you would never believe exist. And, And they deliver a lethal action in a number of different ways. Some of them deliver a lethal dose of poison. Some of them deliver some sort of lethal impulse that throws off your heart and puts you in cardiac arrest. And then there's a whole slew of other things that, you know, do everything from confuse you or blind you or whatever else. And oftentimes... It's like Dungeons and Dragons.

You're like throwing a spell at someone. Lightning bolt, lightning bolt, right? But I will also say that more than weapons, because we're about collecting intelligence. So the really impressive stuff is how small the tools are that we use to collect secrets. How small our thumb drives can be, how small microchips can be, how small cameras can be, how small audio bugs can be, right? Like how we even have ways of creating audio recording devices that have no battery power. Wow.

Right? And that's just really cool stuff that is better than the movies, in my opinion. Amazing. Amazing. I have two very short questions. One is, what is your best tool technique most universal that you would say people who are not spies should learn about? If it's something that I want just the average person to do without paying me a single dollar, I just want them to stop talking. If you just talk 10% less, you're going to learn like 30% percent. 30% more than you learn right now. And it's a hard thing to do, but it's very, very simple and very memorable. Just talk less. When the moment comes where you feel like you should talk,

pause and just hold it and then say what you have to say. And you're going to be shocked by how much you learn. If it's something that people will learn from me, meaning they will come to everyday spy and they will take a course with me. The thing I want them to learn is a course I have called Opthink. That's a master course called operational thinking that I sure. to opt-think. It's the best thing we've ever created. It has transformed people across the world. We use it in all of our executive coaching. It includes many of the tips that we talked about today, Jonathan, from how to ask questions and how to tell lies and how to identify falseness and persuasion and influence, all of that in one program. So if people are going to pay money, that's what I would

want them to learn. If they don't want to pay anything, they just want to have a great time on this podcast. Literally, just hold your tongue for 10% of the time that you and see how much more you learn. If you want a $3,000 a month payday for life, what would you feel free to do? Maybe take a long weekend, every weekend, or try a bunch of new hobbies. Would you feel free to upgrade and listen ad-free? Don't worry, we get it. Every $20 ticket could win you $3,000 a month for life and supports life-saving cancer research at the Princess Margaret. Feel free to buy your payday for life ticket today. Raffle number 155-214. Please play responsibly.