EverydaySpy Podcast - Donald Trump's FAILED Indictment | EverydaySpy Podcast Ep. 2

Episode Date: August 9, 2023

You've heard it from your parents, grade school teachers, and even your first boss: " You only get one chance at a first impression." Well, CIA taught us something very different. And if you want to know whether your middle school counselor or my CIA instructor was more correct, all you have to do is consider former President Donald Trump his incredible ability to capture attention and keep support. Join us for a deep dive into 'impressions' and the Trump indictment, and what the future holds for both in today's conversation. Find your Spy Superpower: https://everydayspy.com/spyquiz Learn more from Andy: https://everydayspy.com/ Join the SpyTribe: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EverydaySpy/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/everydayspy/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/EverydaySpy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So I'm going to say this. I want your thoughts. Yeah. I think Donald Trump will never go to jail. I think that's very possible. We agree. Where would you put a president? They have to have secret service. They have to have physical security.

That's interesting. They have to be protected. So where the hell would you put the guy in? The other day, we went to a pottery place with the kids. It was like one of those places where you buy the already made pottery and you paint it and they fire it for you and whatever. And the kids were so excited about it. We talked about doing it all day. And we had had a big day.

We'd had to do a bunch of other stuff before. Lunch got pushed off to like two in the afternoon. So the whole, it was one of those days where at 9 a.m., you were really looking forward to it. Yeah. But by 2 p.m., you're like, there's no way we're going to get everything done. And these two kids have wanted to do one thing all day. All day. All day.

Paint pottery. And then you look at your watch and you're Googling, you know, what are the hours? And we were like, I was like, we can just make it. The place closes at five. We can be there by 425. That should be plenty of time. Like, if this were a restaurant and the kitchen closed 30 minutes before, you know, close, we would get there five minutes before that kitchen close.

They would seat us. I'm sure this lady's going to, like, you know, this place is going to take us. Not a big deal, right? So we show up and the owner comes, like there's already, you know, there's some people there. It's a relatively small shop. The owner comes up and she's like, oh, we close. in 30 minutes.

I was like, I know. She did say hello first. She did. So we walked in. Yeah. Actually, I think this is really important. We walk in and nobody talked to us. And then we like walked towards the back where the painting was happening and you're right.

There's a few people there are painting. Yeah. And then somebody finally walked up to us and she was like, is there something I can do for you? Yeah. We're like, we want to paint. And then she said, oh, but we close in 30 minutes. And I responded, I know you close in 30 minutes. We'll be really fast, right?

Like, we'll pick out the stuff really fast. We'll get the colors. Do you see these two kids? Yeah. They just want to put paint on porcelain. Totally fine. It's all they want to do. Yeah, like, we can get this done in 30 minutes.

And she was like, oh, you know, by the time, she talked this slowly too. By the time, I was like, if you keep talking to me this slowly, we're definitely running out of time. Like, by the time you pick out the piece and by the time you pick out the paint, I was like, oh my gosh. I was like, you know, by the time you're done telling me all the reasons that I can't give you my business, you know, we will be out of time. Right. So she was like, let me just get you my card with my hours on it. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. I was like, I can look your hours up on Google. I thought that was so interesting. And by interesting, I mean, kind of offensive. When she was like, here, let me give you my card. It has our hours. Like she was saying, hey, dumbasses. I close in 30 minutes.

We know you close in 30 minutes. That is what it felt like. You're open now. For 30 more minutes. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of time. 30 minutes is a decent amount of time for a workout. Like I can do some painting in 30 minutes.

You know, as a business owner, I was kind of shocked because, you know, she's renting a physical space in a plaza with other big name stores. I can't imagine her rent is cheap. Right. Right. And she didn't have a lot of people in there. She had a couple of people in it. She had about four. Right?

We would have doubled the amount of business in that space at that time. Yes. Like, I want to give you my money for four people. And if we can't finish today, I will come back to finish. But right now, you're shoving me out the door and saying no. And saying no with your business card, I will probably not come back here. Right. At first, you were going, like, if you had let me just pick and even halfway get my stuff done, right?

Which we probably could have gotten all of the painting done. in 30 minutes, honestly, because I know how the kids work. But even if I had only gotten half of it done, I would have had a reason to come back, right? I would have had some kind of positive experience with you to bring me back to give you more of my business. But now I'm leaving empty-handed and even worse, the kids are leaving empty-handed and disappointed. And disappointed. For anybody who's had disappointed kids, they don't let it go. They just hold on to it.

So for the next like 45 minutes to an hour, it was just, I was really hoping we could do pottery. I really wanted to paint pottery. Why couldn't we paint pottery? The place with, even our son was like, I don't understand. It was open. Why can't we paint? It was open. And I'm just like, this feels like a Seinfeld episode.

I don't know why it was opened but closed. I don't get it. You're open but closed. And you're not taking new business, but you still say open. The sign says, come in. Right. Right. Then you should turn the sign and lock the door, whatever it is. So I think it's important to highlight here, right? So there's, we're not complaining. No. She closes a five. We're not complaining. Yeah. We know we came into the last minute. Yes. What we're,

saying is how interesting it is that rather than come up with a solution that helped her close more business, this owner just blocked. She was not solutions oriented. Instead, she was problem oriented. I close in 30 minutes. You're here now. This creates an awkward situation. So I'm going to put up a wall. And she doesn't realize that that wall has secondary effects. Not only are you and I not going to be going there. But now, like, if we were to just drop the name of the place on this podcast, that's the equivalent of thousands of people. Yeah. Finding out about this place and not going there, right?

Which nobody anticipates the impact of them putting a roadblock up in someone else's experience. Not to mention it turned into a pain point for us because now the kids are disappointed, we're frustrated, our whole skit. We had just had lunch, a late lunch. We drove 30 minutes out of the way. Yeah. To get to this place.

To get to this place. Yeah. And then when it was closed, the only way that was, we could kind of like get the kids to accept our alternative was to drive 30 minutes back to the same place we just started from and go to an art store to buy them their own art supplies. Right. Like it's one of those fascinating things. And there's absolutely a spy lesson here.

It's not just a business lesson. Business owners, please. Never turn away real business. Don't turn away good, active, engaged business. because it doesn't fit your schedule. You're allowed to have boundaries, have boundaries, set boundaries. Absolutely. But when a business opportunity comes its way

and it's pushed right up against your boundaries, find a way to make everyone happy. Yeah. Right? I would love to work with you. I would love to talk more with you. You know, I'm running out of time today. Is this something we can cover in 15 minutes?

Right. I'm happy to give you the last 15 minutes of my day. Right. That's totally different than, I don't have time to talk to you. Right. Yeah. you want to build the beginnings of a positive relationship and then have some kind of hook that brings them back to you. That positive hook is everything because, you know, we're taught

from a young age. I remember my dad telling me this when I was like seven, that first impressions are everything. Right. First impressions are so important. It's the most important thing. First impression, first impression, first impression. Nope. Wrong. CIA taught us that the real most important impression is your last impression, that the actual phrase should be, the last impression is the lasting impression. Because that's really what happened. I feel like this story is a perfect example of that. Our first impression of this woman was good. Yeah, it's very positive. She was happy. She was smiling. She was engaging. She looked nice. The store was nice. Everything's great. We don't like that store. Because the first impression was very quickly overruled, forgotten. What do we

call it, OBE? Do you remember OBE? Overcome by events. That's what we say that at CIA all the time. Yeah. Because what matters the most is what happened last. Yeah. Most recently, most relevant, most current. So when this woman, her last impression on us was, get the hell out of my store. I've got to close down in 30 minutes because that's what my rules are. That's what my sign says out front. Instead of any other alternative. That was the last. impression and that's the impression that lasts. Your last impression is your lasting impression. I remember back to when you and I were taught any, remember how we were taught to do our initial approach, our bump? Yeah. So it just can for a real quick

explainer. What is a bump? What is an initial approach? So at the agency, a bump is when you literally bump into somebody, you have a chance meeting with somebody that is of interest. So to them it seems like a chance meeting, but for you, it's planned. and you've planned out the whole, in your mind, this whole scenario of how you are generally going to get another meeting with them. And the approach has to feel very positive and very coincidental to the person that you're bumping. Very non-threatening.

Very non-threatening. But that's just the beginning. The approach is really just the beginning. You want the first impression to be non-threatening, non-alerting, casual. Even though you know you've had this target. You've been chasing this target for months. And you just happen to be like, they're going to be at the coffee shop on the corner street. At 2 o'clock today, I'm going to be there too.

And all the pressure is on you. Like this is your moment to make it happen. But it has to look and feel to them like a chance encounter. Yeah. Because anybody can bump into another person and ask the time or ask if the seat is taken or whatever. So it's important that just like you said, it's not alerting at first, but what really, really solidifies the bump process is how you continue that interaction. How you end it. Yeah.

Yeah, how you end it. Because the most important thing, as you, after the initial approach, which we've all botched initial approaches. Oh, yeah. I mean, come on. What guy out there, what gal out there probably hasn't tripped over their tongue trying to introduce himself to a handsome person or a person. beautiful person. We've all botched initial approaches. But that's not what's what actually sticks. What sticks is was the entire encounter net positive? Right. And did you end the encounter on a positive note? Right. Because a positive note carries all the continuing relevance, right? All the

relevancy, all the all of the future is based on how it ends, not how it starts. Right. And I feel like as a business owner and a case officer trying to develop an asset, it's the same thing you're trying to get to at the end. You want them to end up with a good positive impression of you and you want them to want to come back. Yeah. Want to come back to buy from you to talk to you, to spend some time with you. Yeah. I mean, and I think it's a great point. There's so many reasons that you want to end on a positive note. I feel like we should kind of list them out a little bit. when you meet a stranger, you want that meeting to end on a positive note because you want them to think about you, remember you in positive ways.

Because every time you recall something, every time you remember something, you essentially relive it. So one five-minute conversation, oh, this is so true in dating especially, man. This is true with kids, too. like think about the memories we have of our children. Yeah. The positive memories we have, we relive those over and over again. Yeah. Those moments that make us feel good, but that they actually executed.

Yeah. Right? When my daughter, when our daughter does something sweet, when our son does something courageous or when our son does something sweet and our daughter does something courageous, those create memories that we relive. Yeah. So instead, even though the actual instant was only five or seven, seven seconds, every time we relive it, it feels to us like it's that much more real.

Yeah. So now that five second example becomes something that we've built up in our heads because we've relived it 10 times. Now it's 50 seconds worth of experience to us. Yeah. Same thing happens when you meet somebody. When you have a positive experience with somebody, when you leave a positive lasting impression, they relive that.

Yeah. And every time they relive it, it's like you're there without having to be there. So they have this positive memory of you. They're building this relationship in their own head just through recalling and remembering you. It's why we feel like we know baristas. It's why people frequent bars and they feel like the bartender knows them. Yeah.

Bartender doesn't know you. Yeah. They see 200 people a week, more, 200 people a day. Yeah. They're not going to remember just you. But you had a positive 17 second interaction with the bartender and now you're thinking about them. So in your head, you're building a relationship.

relationship with them. So the next time you see them, you're like, hey, it's good to see you again. Yeah. And of course, they know how to handle a bump. They're like, yeah. Hey, buddy. How have you been? It's been a while. You know, because they don't know. Yeah. So it's really important. The lasting impression works because people will relive that in their head. Yeah. And then you have this positive final point. So even when people don't recall you, they still recall the feeling that you left them with. So when you run into somebody in the future, even if they don't remember the details,

they remember the feeling. Yeah, it's because the memory isn't going to be very specific. I remember I had a boyfriend once who when we first met, our first encounter was this very positive, flirty experience. And he gave me his phone number. I called him. We set a date. And then I think the date was maybe like three days later.

And for the life of me, I couldn't remember what he left. looked like. I thought, I knew I thought he was cute, right? So I trusted that. But I couldn't picture his face at all. And I thought, oh my gosh, we're meeting somewhere. Like, what if I don't recognize him, right?

Because I can't picture, I can't quite recall what his face look like. But the first impression was so positive that I followed up with a phone call, followed up with a date. And I still went there. The last impression. The last impression. Sorry, yeah. The last impression was so powerful.

Yes. You couldn't recall the face. Yeah. But you could recall the feeling. Right. Exactly. And that's how we work, right? The emotional brain is so powerful.

And that's what CIA teaches us. Yes. You don't deal with people logically. You deal with people emotionally. Right. Because the connections, the neural links in the emotional, you know, creative brain in that right brain. Yeah. They're so carnal that they rule.

They just rule over your logical mind. Your logical mind takes a long time to process. Your creative mind processes almost instantaneously. Your logical mind is constantly trying to prioritize and isolate. Your creative mind is blending and combining. Right. So it becomes this incredibly powerful tool. If you understand, first impressions are bullshit.

Last impressions are the lasting impression. So if you can just, if you make it your mission in personal life or business life, always leave people with a lasting positive impression. They will come back. Yeah. They will come back. They will favorably remember you. Yeah.

And that ties into what you're saying about being solutions oriented because it's not just the business owner. It's anybody. The idea of being solutions oriented is giving somebody the positive feeling that you care about them, right? And it's the feeling that they get from you. Like you might not actually be giving them the greatest solution. You might not have a good solution.

But if they feel like you're trying, then they feel like you care and they're feeling, right? Yeah. And that's what they remember at the end. That's what they remember. Because those conversations, conversations about problems usually end with either a solution or a restatement of the problem. Yeah. I remember, oh, man, I remember all those conversations, not just at the agency, but also

when we left CIA and went into corporate world, people would leave like, hey, guys, we have a problem. And then crickets. Nobody would say anything. Does anybody have any idea how we got to this problem? Everybody had an idea how the problem happened. Yeah. Oh, Betsy didn't do this and Jimmy didn't do that.

And nobody checked this and nobody checked that. Problem, problem, problem, problem. Yeah. How are we fixing it, guys? Crickets. Yeah. Just makes you hate everybody on the phone. Until the friggin' intern chimes in.

And they're like, well, I could probably make a spreadsheet that gives everybody an opportunity to see all the problems. And then the manager's like, yes, that's a great idea. Yeah. And then who does the manager remember later? That intern. That intern. That intern. Yeah.

Who tried. Who cared. Exactly right. The last impression. The last impression is everything. You know, I think this is really relevant because one of the best last impressions that constantly tops headlines is Donald Trump. Yeah. Donald Trump, who constantly makes headlines, who very rarely has anybody ever complimented him for first impressions. Yeah. But yet the guy has so much media pool, so much frenzy, so much support, so much interest, so much outrage. People keep talking about him because his last impressions always last. Well, and his last impressions trigger this range of emotions depending on who is listening to him. So it's, you know, the emotion of like, yeah, I'm with you or it's the emotion of you're such a horrible person or it's the emotion of, yeah, he's going to get his. I mean, it's these very powerful emotions that he triggers. And because those strong emotions are triggered by those last impressions, he just continues to be top of mind.

Yeah, exactly. So people, whether they love him or hate him, they keep talking about him. They keep recalling him. They keep remembering him. The dude hasn't been president in three years. And he still gets tons and tons of coverage. The most recent news has been about his indictments. Mm-hmm.

His second, the newest indictment? It's two indictments or three? I think it's the third. I think he's been indicted three times. Yeah. And I'm also fairly certain that that is never, not only has, no former president been indicted three times. I'm pretty sure no former president has ever been indicted. Yeah, not that I know of. Yeah. That's insane. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting is

he is also one of three presidents that has gone through impeachment proceedings. So out of, you know, our entire history only three. It's been, you know, Andrew Johnson, Johnson, you know, Bill Clinton. No. Oh, yeah, Nixon with their proceedings. but I think was not impeached Bill Clinton and Trump, I believe. And what's interesting is, you know, those presidents committed offenses while in office, which is why they weren't indicted. They were impeached because you can't indict a sitting president. But Trump has this world outside of politics, which makes him susceptible to being indicted for other things.

Yeah, outside of the presidency. Right. So, I mean, you know, whether or not somebody does something wrong in office, most presidents don't do anything out of the political realm where they could be indicted for, you know, business dealings or whatever it is that. Hush money. Ash money. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's an unusual, you know, an unusual person in this role in this field. So it's really, I actually want to, I think it's worth it to dig into what is an indictment.

Like what are the proceedings that keep making headlines that people keep talking about? So my understanding, and I am very layperson, I hated studying law. Did you really? I hated, like, law. I think I had to take law 101 and 201 when I was in the military academy. I find it so fascinating. Oh, man. Well, you went on to get your JD.

You went to law school. Yeah. And then when I was at the agency, I actually took a course on through the agency and the DOD. I took a course on military law, which was really interesting. Military laws. So fascinating. Fascinating you say. Scary I say.

I love the idea. You know, it's funny because in the CIA you live in the world of gray. Yeah. But military law is so black and white. And I really am drawn to this idea of black and white. It's so simple, so clean. So dangerous. Like applied mathematics, right?

Applied mathematics is not simple and clean. What? Are you kidding? Yeah, but how do you apply them? There's a reason that that's like the world of quants and like geniuses because it's not easy. But nevertheless, I think this is the perfect, you're the perfect person to ask these questions to, right? My understanding is that an indictment is really not that big a deal. Basically, a group of, is it attorneys or people?

A group basically says, we think there's enough evidence that this could go to court. Yeah. But that group is not bipartisan. That group is not selected through a process, like a jury. It's a grand jury. How does it work? Yeah. Yeah, so prosecutors, there are lots of things that people do that could be taken to court, right?

But prosecutors only have, there's only so much time and enough and money and whatever. So they go through this process where they get a grand jury, so it's a jury of, you know, your peers. They go through the whole jury process, but it's only the prosecution showing the evidence. So the prosecution is showing evidence to this group of jury of peers saying, you know, this is the evidence we have. Here are some witnesses that we want you to see, that we want you to hear from. And then you guys decide, you know, just a simple majority, right? For a criminal case, you have to have, you know, everybody has to agree. But for an indictment, you just have to have a simple majority, right, 51%.

Yeah. You know, is there enough evidence to bring a formal charge? So with an indictment, you have one side of the story, just the prosecution, a simple majority of a grand jury. And is the grand jury picked, well, it's not picked by both sides. Like a normal jury is picked by both, like the defensive counsel and the prosecution, both have a say in who makes the jury. Yeah, there's a jury collection process. But in this case, it's just selected by the prosecution. Yeah.

So it's prosecution driven, one-sided evidence. They pick who votes. And then a simple majority raises their hand. says, yes, we think there's enough evidence. And then boom, you have an indictment. Yeah. And then that's the indictment. And then once the indictment is made public, then all of the evidence that the prosecution has is then shown to the defense. And then at that point, there's this, I mean, so an indictment is a step, right? So it makes headlines. But after that, once the defense sees all the evidence, the first thing they try to do is have the case dismissed.

Yeah. Right? Say, oh, this is malarkey. And we've seen that. We've seen that dozens of times. And so, you know, the very next step could be a judge dismisses the case. Or the very next step could be the judge doesn't dismiss the case, but it's months and months of attorney wrangling, you know, fighting over procedure and fighting over what evidence is allowed. Because just because there's evidence doesn't mean it's allowed, right? So with the three Trump indictments that we've seen, what that means is a one-sided conversation was built. Yeah. a one side of evidence was shown to a biased grand jury who then said yes we want to we think that there's enough evidence here so boom there's an indictment now the court dates that apply

have all been months in advance i mean the earliest court date i think is December yeah i think the second second court date is March and even then those court dates aren't firm because the time between now and then is when deliberations happen attorney wrangling there's all this administrative procedural stuff that happens before anything ever gets to court. So cases could be dismissed in this period of time. Defenses could build a defense that makes a judge not even want to take it to court. Like all sorts of things, the prosecution can withdraw their case if they want to too, right? All of these things could happen between now and the court dates themselves.

So yeah. So yeah, it's no smoking gun. It's no smoking gun. It's not a conviction. It's not the end. It's important because no former president has ever had it happen before. Right. But Trump is not the first president to break the law.

Yeah. And even then, like, are we, he hasn't been proven. It hasn't been proven that he broke the law. In the impeachment process, which is such an interesting process, and I would love for you to get your thoughts on it. The impeachment process is done outside of the judicial branch. So the entire impeachment process is a kind of like a court hearing, but with no legal professionals. Congressional peers. So it's not, so if they impeach you, it doesn't really mean that you broke the law either.

It means that they're accusing you of something and that something could or couldn't be proven, but no legal professionals involved. It's not, yeah, it's not, you can't compare it to a court case that's, you know, brought before a judge. So like, so you said Nixon was impeached? No, Nixon's never went to impeachment. Is that right? He went through the, he went through an impeachment process, but I don't believe he was impeached. What's interesting is that former previous to this, and I mean, it could still happen with Trump too. So like Bill Clinton, right?

Lied under oath. Yep. Right. He's charged with obstruction of justice. There was, so he went through impeachment proceedings. And then I believe there was a case brought outside after he was president. So obstruction of justice seems to be this very common theme. Because that was Johnson too, was obstruction of justice.

Yeah. And Clinton and Nick. and Trump. Obstruction of justice. Obstruction of justice. So they did something specific, but the legal terminology for what they did

was obstruction of justice, which to me sounds like you are obstructing the judicial branch from doing their job. So it violates checks and balances. Is that correct? They're obstructing the judicial branch?

They're obstructing, so interestingly enough, if it's the Department of Justice, the Department of Justice is actually the executive branch. The Department of Justice is the executive branch. Right.

Not the judicial branch. Correct. Yeah, the judicial branch is just the courts, the judges. But the attorneys that work for the federal government are all the executive branch. So when a president... Who is part of the executive branch. So the president who's part of the executive branch and is the chief executive, obstructs justice.

They're obstructing the ability for the department of justice, which is under the executive branch. To do its job. Yeah. And so. And none of it falls under the rubric of the Department of Justice. It all stayed, it goes to the legislative branch to decide in an impeachment. In an impeachment, yes. But in a criminal case, right, when they're bringing federal charges, that's the Department of Justice.

And so Bill Clinton's case, he settled. He settled? Yeah, he had a case brought against him in the. Yep, yeah. Monica. Was that Monica Lewinsky? Monica. And her name.

Oh, there was an and. Nobody even remembers that there was an Anne. Yeah, I can picture her face now, but I'm losing her name. But he settled that case. He agreed to lose his law practicing license because he was an attorney. And this is. Talk about lasting impressions because people still think very favorably about Bill Clinton. I know.

Well, you know, I don't have. And it's, yeah, I have my own opinions about Bill Clinton. They're not all unfavorable, but the moment he lied under oath, I thought, what a giant, dumbass. That's what I thought, too. We were young when that happened, but it's lasting impressions for us. Yeah. Where there are people who, I mean, Bill Clinton still sits very close to the front row every time a new president's sworn in.

Yeah. He is still seeing the Clinton family name is still a very positive name in circles. Completely forgetting the fact that when he was president, he lied under oath. Yeah. He was an attorney sworn to defend and support the Constitution. But I mean, the thing there's, you know, even with Trump's indictments, it's not necessarily going to, I mean, it may not go to court. You know, it may be dismissed.

It may go to court. He may be convicted of something. He may have to pay a fine. He may have to go to jail. He may make a plea deal. Any of those things can happen. So I'm going to say this, and I want your thoughts. Yeah.

I think Donald Trump will never go to jail. I think that's very possible. We agree. I guess on this. So here's why, too. I think Donald Trump will never go to jail because, there is no precedent for sending an American president, a former American president, to jail. So legally, law is always based on precedent.

There is no precedent here. Nothing has ever happened in the past, even close to what people are saying is happening here. That's reason number one. Reason number two is the logistical nightmare. Where would you put a president? They have to have secret service. They have to have physical security. That's interesting.

They have to be protected. So where the hell would you put the guy? Yeah, what federal prison would you put him in when he's required to have secret service? Yes. So even if you could make a case that passes through the court system, which I don't think you can on Donald Trump. I think it's going to be very difficult for people to make a compelling case that puts the guy in jail versus a plea deal or something else, right? Even if you do, the judge who sits on that court is going to have to be thinking, like, what am I going to do with this guy? like what prison is going to hold him?

How do we handle secret service? How do we handle his rights and privileges as a U.S. president, which he will carry forever because that's that's the precedent. Yeah. Well, and I think you brought up something interesting there where, you know, Donald Trump has a lot of, you know, very powerful attorneys. So it is possible that if they get to a point where it looks like conviction is going to happen and he's facing jail time or they can try to get into a plea deal if that's

being offered, you know, know, his team's not going to let him go to jail, right? His team is not going to let him spend time in prison. So I think even if it goes that route and they do have enough evidence, you know, more likely than not, he will have to pay money or he will have to do something else. I think that's probably likely, you know, just because that's, you know, oftentimes it's how these things work. And that's what nobody likes to admit. And that's the third reason. The third reason, I believe Donald Trump will never go to prison is because it would essentially be a stain on the democratic experiment, the democracy experiment that is the United States, because it would prove that

our system is not flawless, that our system is not perfect, that our system is not the best system, that our system still allows for corruption, abuse, et cetera, et cetera, which we all already know because we have seen it in the past. We've seen systematic corruption and systematic abuse of power in other presidents. It's just that when you combine Donald Trump with where we are in history and the availability of technology and a thousand other factors that make for this perfect storm, if Richard Nixon were to be president right now in today's age, the same shitstorm would happen. Yeah.

If Bill Clinton would have been president right now. The same shit store wouldn't happen, right? We would have had multiple indictments and multiple investigations and whatever, like this incredible amount of attention and what we never talk about is the insane amount of taxpayer money. Oh, yeah. That's being spent in these investigations and these countersuits and oh my gosh, we're just burning money trying to like what, trying to win an argument of polarized left-leaning and right-leaning extremists?

Like it's insane. How much money is being spent in these investigations over and over again, a former president. Like let the law do its thing and let's focus on the current president. Let's have the current president and legislative branches focus on legislating. Yeah. Not trying to dig up crap in the past that spends a bunch of money. So if Donald Trump goes to prison, which I don't think he ever will, it will be a demonstration of how we are not perfect, how the United States, who's framed itself in the entire international community as this beacon of freedom and hope and a sense. system that's beyond like issue, the ultimate system. Our system is better than yours

communist countries and our system is better than yours kingdoms and fiefdoms and whatever else. No, it's not. If somebody can actually systematically abuse their way to the top, then your system can be played. And that's an acknowledgement that I don't think any senior leader in the United States ever wants to make because that brings question into every president who has ever been president and who will ever be president. Yeah, it's interesting because I, I kind of disagree, I think, because I think it's important to indict people. Endowment's important. No, I mean, I think, you know, if you actually committed a crime, it's important that you fall

under the same laws that everybody else falls under. Right. You are not exempt. When Bill Clinton lied under oath, he's not exempt, right? Just because you're the president, you're not allowed to do these things. So I feel like it's a good trend that, in theory, regardless of some of the president, you're not allowed to do these things. feel like it's a good trend that, in theory, regardless of your position, you are able to be called to the table for things that you did wrong. I agree. I think that's a good thing. But I do

may possibly agree that it could be kind of a slippery slope to open. I mean, because lots of people do lots of people in power do lots of wrong things. So it could be a slippery slope that suddenly opens up all these investigations and lawsuits. And then that, in the interferes with the working of the government. And our freedom possible. Doesn't seem so free anymore. And our democracy and the fact that democracy is the best version of civilization, all of a sudden that comes into question.

Yeah, it creates chaos. It's that very same democracy that makes it so that people actually do get exemptions. Bill Clinton was exempted, right? Richard Nixon was exempted. Andrew Johnson was exempted. you know, the crimes that they committed didn't even go to a judicial court. That's the exemption that they got. If you or I were to obstruct justice today, I don't even know if we could.

Yeah, we can obstruct justice. Anybody can obstruct justice. We would not be reviewed by the legislative branch. We would be under a indictment that goes to the judicial branch. Like Lil' Kim. Completely separate. That's my example. Lil Kim, shout out.

Yeah, Lil Kim who also perjured herself and then spent dead jail time. But that's exactly right. So it's a double standard. We don't like to highlight that double standard because they're the president. The president is a public servant and they do this and they do that and they deserve certain exemptions. Yes, I agree with that. And yes, it's uncomfortable for people to accept. Right?

The president is the, it's the freaking president, man. Yeah. There's stuff you just can't do because of the seat that they sit in, the, the, the chair that they that they that they that weighs them down right there's sacrifices in that office that have to make it's the same reason yeah CIA is the same way when you're a CIA officer I think you had to do it too you had to get professional liability insurance yeah because just executing the oath of the office in which you are accepting yeah you might break laws yeah so you need to have protection when you break those laws so in no way am i saying that trump is not broken a law

But what I am saying is that any law he has broken, even if it goes all the way to court and everybody says he's guilty, he's never going to jail. Because it's just the American system can't handle it. The actual jail system can't handle it. And I don't think that there's the evidence in place to be able to set a precedent that convicts a former president. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see. I think I do agree with you.

So it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Well, I like that you agree with me now, but just a few minutes ago, you were like, I sort of disagree with you. Why, I agree with you on the Trump. It's unlikely to go to jail. This is a very married person agreement disagreement right here. This is a very married person approach. I agree with you kind of, sort of. I agree with you on this one small thing here.

I don't want to fight with you all day. So I'm going to agree with you on this little thing. I want to like you later. I thought that was brilliant when you invented that saying. want to like you later. Why do you want to like me later? Yeah. Oh, I want you to like me later too.

Yep. So we also, we had a fantastic question come in from somebody in the Spy Tribe. Actually, this was a question that just recently came up in the comment section of one of our, one of our recent interviews. Yep. So, excuse me, this was a question that came up in one of our recent podcast conversations, not one of my interviews, but one of our podcast. conversations. And the question was, how did we rebuild our life after leaving CIA? And I appreciated this question so much when I saw it. Because nobody ever asks that question. People are always curious about life at CIA. What was it like working at CIA? What was it like being at CIA?

What was it like being a spy? It's so rare that you ever have somebody intuitive enough to be like, whoa, what was life like for you afterwards? Because it's not life on a silver platter. No. It's quite the opposite. It rebuild, I think, is really the right word because, you know, we were undercover and it took time. So I think rebuild is the right word because when we were at the agency, we were undercover. And when we left, that we were still undercover.

When we were looking to leave, we had to find a job before we left to have something lined up. We were still covered. And then after we left for like another almost year and a half, two years, it wasn't rolled back for us. So our resumes were fake, right? All of our work history was fake. And we're trying to get these, you know, a job and trying to network and trying to make ourselves sounds really interesting when our cover jobs were super boring. like not related to what our real skills were. So it was definitely a rebuilding of, you know,

really making in-person contacts, really networking hard, to be able to speak to people and impress on people. We can do this job. So when, I mean, to say it a different way, when we left CIA, we were still undercover. And that meant that we were not employed by CIA, but we were still under federal obligation to live.

undercover. Yeah. But there was nobody supporting our cover. Yeah. So we were in this really awkward situation, which makes sense. CIA didn't know what to do with us. Right. Where we have to lie and maintain a lie under like under federal prosecution if we don't.

Yeah. But it was still a lie. Mm-hmm. And now on, you know, with our resumes, which we were able to inform our resumes, but somebody else had to approve of them. Yes. So our resumes looked like garbage. Yeah.

they were terrible. The references were empty. The companies weren't real. The work skills that we had were not genuine. And even the verbiage in the resume itself was whitewashed and bland and boring and nondescript. Everything a resume shouldn't be. Yeah. So CIA made it very, very hard to transition out of our cover status and into real life. And that wasn't a short-term thing. Because the administrative process at CIA requires that they review your entire operational history before they roll back your cover if they even choose to roll back your cover. Yeah. So I think that one of the big lessons we learned as we were on our way out was how important

your network is. And, you know, it's easy, especially when you're working at someplace like the CIA or maybe another government agency or, you know, to have your network be very small, right? Be just within the agency or just within the company you're working with. But it's so important to have a broader network because that's how we were ultimately able to step out. As we started tapping on people who had zero to do with government or D.C. or the agency or anything, we started just racking our brain of who do we know that we can talk to and say, I'm looking for a job. Do you have any connections?

You know, these are the skills I have. This is what I'm looking for. And after a lot of legwork, mostly on your part, it payments. out for us, right? We were able to successfully transition out. Yeah, we had to not only rebuild our lives, but we had to rebuild our entire social network. Yeah. Because what we had not realized is that seven years of undercover service really insulates your entire network. Yeah. We were connected to some great people, some important people, some powerful people. Yeah. But through CIA, we had no plausible reason outside of CIA to know those people so we couldn't

tap on them. They couldn't recommend us to somebody else because they couldn't connect the dots on CIA because we were still in the status. So it was a really difficult time. But I mean, I guess the Reader's Digest version of the story is that we went without employment for months, ended up living in, this is so humiliating. I moved my family into your parents' garage. And that's where we lived with our one-year-old boy. Yeah, it was great. are so generous. I loved it. I was going back home. Oh my gosh. But we were living in a garage for like four or five months until we could network our way. And we were networking using spy skills. Yeah. Not networking using real networking skills because we were still undercover. Yeah.

We still had to lie about everything. Yeah. What we needed was someone to give us a job without needing a resume. Yeah. Because our resume looked atrocious. It was the worst possible representation of us. Yeah. And even if someone, did look past the horrible write-up. As soon as they went to call a reference or email a reference, it would be empty. It would be unanswered because they weren't real. Yeah. So it was a really tricky bit of cajoling.

But you're right. Eventually, we found an executive who liked us peer-to-peer and was like, you're the perfect fit for this other job. And I'm just going to tell my HR people to just expedite the process and get you hired by next week. And that's how we built our life. And that's how we built our positions at CBS Health. Yeah. And we started with CVS Health in late 2014 and didn't leave there until 2019.

Had fantastic careers with CBS. Yeah. Learning on the job because we lied about everything to get the job. Except our basic skills. I mean, that's the thing, you know. That's true. Being quick to learn, being resilient, you know, being willing to step into discomfort. Yeah.

Being comfortable with time constraints. Yeah. Yeah, and we did all of those things and that, it's funny because you might not have the specific skills for the, like the specific, you know, I know how to write in SQL. But if you're willing to learn it and you're fast at learning and you put the time and effort into it, just say it. You're there. Yeah. And you have it. It's fine, right?

And then that bleeds through the rest of your job, you know, your career there. That's so funny. I think that was an exact conversation with that executive too. Do you guys know anything about sequel? Nope, but we're willing to learn. Yeah. Nobody knows anything about sequel. So it's going to be fun.

Yeah, and then I learned it on the job. We learned it on the job. I was like, that's fine. I was like, you know, I learned C++ in high school. I got it. And that's been our life ever since, really. Like the way that we rebuilt our life after we left CIA was essentially doing the same thing that we learned to do at CIA, take a risk.

Yeah. Like a leap of faith, gamble on ourselves. And look at things that some people see as impossible as just, difficult. Yeah, as a learning experience, right? And then lean into it. Yeah. And be ready to fail. Yeah. Fail gracefully. Yeah. Exactly. And that's still what we're doing today. I mean, hell, we homeschool our kids. Yeah. That feels like a graceful failing every day. Yeah. Right? Building this business has been the same way. Building the launching this podcast has been the same way. I mean, honestly, I'm fairly certain that you still sit down at that chair

kind of dreading the conversation that's about to happen because this is so different to you. It is. This is very outside my comfort zone. But you don't show it. You just lean right into it. Because I want to grow and I want to learn and I just feel like this is important. I love it. It absolutely is. Thank you very much for joining us again today. We love your comments. Our questions are coming directly from your comments. So please give us your feedback. Let us know what you want to talk about. Let us know what's interesting, what you like, what you don't like about the podcast, about the conversations that we're having. And of course, give us the questions that you want to know.

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