EverydaySpy Podcast - Everyday Precision Without the Bullets

Episode Date: October 20, 2020

We all know what it's like to have our words misunderstood. We also know it's like to misunderstand what someone else is trying to say. Sometimes these errors are innocent... and sometimes they are not. In this episode, Andrew and Jihi share a few personal stories and a few current examples to show you exactly how specific words can help you or be used against you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My name is Andrew Bustamante, and this is everyday espionage. So, Ghi, the other day, I was on the phone with your dad. You were on the phone. We were on speakerphone. Speakerphone. That's the way to do it. Because there's no confusion. Lots of witnesses.

So we're on the phone with your dad, and I'm telling him about how I have to go back up to Pennsylvania to pick up our 32-foot Winnebago, the RV that we launched every day. spy with two years ago. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And I have to bring it back to Florida for some maintenance and so that we can enjoy it over the winter because winter season is prime camping season in Florida. And in that conversation, I told him that I was planning to go alone, but that I would be

excited. I would welcome the chance for him to come with me and be part of that trip back to Florida. And I had told you I was going to invite him before I invited him. And we both know that your dad has a habit. How can I put his habit nicely? It's like the polite yes that really means no. Yes. It's like a polite yes that really means no.

And I knew he was going to throw me a polite yes. But I was worried, like, what if his polite yes is really an actual yes? I don't know the difference between the polite yes and the actual yes. So when he threw me that polite yes on speakerphone with you, I immediately pushed back and I was like, you know, just wait, think about it for a couple of days. and then get back to me. And then he didn't get back to me. Right. So fast forward now about four weeks to yesterday.

We're on the call with him again. And what happened? We're on the call with my mom. And she says, we're making plans for Halloween. She said, well, you're not, that's not going to be there. He's going to be with Andy. And we look at each other. And oh, really?

And she said, yeah, we were on that phone call together. Remember? He said, yes. And we were like, but we never received the confirmation. we said, please think about it and text us and it never happened. And I'm telling you, like, I've already gone on to plan the whole trip. Yes. And it's not going to be a comfortable trip.

It's not a trip built for a 67, 70-year-old man. Early 70-year-old man. It's not a trip built for a 70-year-old man, kind of, you know, doing a dead drive, dead reckoning, hardcore drive from Pennsylvania to Florida with two or three stops, sleeping in the cold. Like, it's not going to be comfortable for him. And when we were on speaker with your mom, your dad called me as the speaker, conversation was going on to tell me, oh yeah, I'm so excited to be there. And it was really heartbreaking

to find a way to basically un-invite your dad, my dad, our dad. But I feel like it's so important to tell this story, the polite yes that really means no and the confusion that comes from not knowing if it's a yes or a no when we talk about something known as language precision or word specificity. And I know this is something that's near and dear to your heart, so I'm going to let you take it from there. Yeah, so this is near and dear to my heart because when Andy and I were first working at the agency, that's where we met and that's where we were dating. And everybody goes through their, you know, figuring out their communication when you are getting to know somebody, whether it's a friend or somebody you're dating. And, you know, we went through the same

thing. But at the agency, we were being trained as, you know, operatives, as analysts. And so we were trained to use what's called words of estimated probability in the reports. So you're right. It's like this, it's the most expensive dating service in the world. Yeah, that's what they say. We meet each other. And then on top of that, it's almost like we're getting couples counseling through the lens of espionage the whole time. Yeah, you're being trained to form professional relationships. Assessments. Yes, assessments. And then build relationships that have a purpose and, you know, and be able to carry a

out activities with nobody knowing about them. Right. So because we're spending all this time being trained day to day to write operational reports, to write analytical reports. Raw intelligence. Right. And in intelligence, there is no room for ambiguity in your language. There's no room for the polite, yes. Right. There's no room for polite. There's no room for softening a blow. Like, your language needs to be concise and clear in every single report. Because lives, depend on it. And I'm going to, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I find it so interesting what you're saying because the reason we were being trained in that language wasn't because we were expected only to communicate out in that language. We were also being trained how to interpret information coming

in. And this is where I feel like untrained people or where most people have their grief in relationship communication is that we tell ourselves, I am communicating clearly. I am telling you exactly what I think, exactly what I feel, exactly what I want to have change. We feel like we are doing that very directly. But the truth is communication is two ways. It's the transmission of information. And you can do that as clearly as possible. But if you're using words that are not clear to the person receiving the information, then it's just as bad as if you never use the right words in the first place. So we're learning this language that you're talking about because we need to write in that language and we need to understand what we're reading

when other people communicate with us using the same terminology. Right. So at the agency, if we read a report that said, you know, something was uncertain or something had, you know, a certain level of probability, then we all used the same words, the same language. So we knew was that a 30% chance, a 40% chance, a 70% chance? This is likely. This is unlikely. This is not likely.

with high confidence, with low confidence. We had a number that we could use to quantify that terminology, and we knew to communicate in that terminology when we're speaking to others and when others are speaking to us. Right. So we learn all these skills at the agency, and it makes us very aware in our relationship when we're communicating with each other. Now, that's not to say that we have perfect communication.

I have perfect communication. I don't know about you. Yeah. You went 13 years later. And, you know, of course, when, arguments happen, especially with somebody that you're very close to and emotions become heightened, you go right back to all of your generalities. Instead of using specific words saying, you know, I feel very angry because I'm hungry and I'm very disappointed that I didn't get the latte that

you promised me this morning. That's exactly what happened two days ago. Yes. Instead, that comes out is, you're such a jerk. Yes. Talk to me later. Yes. Right. And then and then I push. to try to understand more and it just turns into more anger and then I start to infer, well, I must have done something wrong, is my breath bad? Did I? And there's guessing. Yeah. What exactly does she mean? That's so true. So I think this is really interesting because what you're talking about is word specificity, the idea of having a responsibility to pick the right words, the specific words that you're using when you communicate, and understanding that when you hear someone else trying to use precise words, trying to use specific

words, you need to understand how they define those words. And as parents, as a married couple, I find that that's super useful. I've also seen it really play out in the business sense. With everyday spy, with our corporate lives prior to everyday spy and after we left the agency, there is our culture. American culture is great in so many ways. But one of the the ways where we are suffering is that we don't have consistent language. We have this idea of tact. And I've gone toe to toe with really professional people, people of faith, people of high education, toe to toe to toe on this argument of tact, because I am not a big fan of tact, because all tact does is muddy the water. And I think I've told you this story, and maybe even

told people on the podcast this story about my mom making steak that tasted like fish and everybody else told her if tasted fine and I said it tasted like fish. That's the person I am. It was very clear to my mom what it tasted like, but it didn't make her feel very good. And when you talk about our emotions in an argument, our emotions take the front seat. And the thing that suffers when our emotions drive is information. Because now emotions are driving. All the information is still there. You knew that you were upset about the latte. You knew that you were hungry. You knew that you were tired, you knew that the baby had done whatever she had done that morning and Sina woke up too early, you knew everything. But the emotion kept you from being able to precisely and succinctly

get it out. And then the emotions that came up for me prevented me from even being able to reflect on the fact that, oh, you know what? She's probably hungry. And the baby did this to her and Sina woke up early. So it just took everything apart. But one of the things that Andy does really great that has helped us over time is that he is a great question asker. So even when emotions are running high, I know that he can dig and dig and dig and I will eventually come up with the precise words to explain the root of my emotion. I like, I mean, you can give me credit for that, but that is, that's the agency. That's them teaching us how to use questions. And I'm not telling anybody that this is a pretty scenario when it happens. There's still, you know, emotions are running

high, you know what that looks like. But it does get to the root of what's really going on. And that's with anything, whether it's an argument or a big decision that you're making. I mean, why? A work project? Right, a work project. Why do you want to buy that car? Why do you feel like going to get ice cream right now? You know, why are you voting for whoever you're voting for? If you dig, you can come up with the precise words that explain why you're really doing something. And I find, you know, I love that we're, you know, making fun of our own relationship. But the truth is, the techniques that you and I use against each other, did that sound right? The techniques that you and I use against each other?

That's probably pretty accurate, though, or precision. That's true. That's very precise language there, Andy. Well done. But the techniques that we are employing are the same techniques that we have applied professionally in foreign languages, in foreign cultures where we're working through a interpreter. it's just so powerful when you realize that no matter what the language, no matter what the education level, no matter what the accent, the world experience, you have to be able to get your point across

and you have to be able to understand the point that the other person is trying to make. And the closer you get to honing in on specific precise language, the better confidence you have to use our estimative tool that we've got from the agency, the higher confidence you have that you are understanding and transmitting accurately. Now, one of the places that I think this is really relevant is where I see it in marketing. The other day, I was with a good friend at CVS. And we used to work for CVS. I still shop at CVS when I have to.

But we're sitting there and we're waiting for a prescription to be filled. And standing there in the middle of the aisle is this brand new, really shiny, really well-lit, like a promotions table. That was all herbal supplements. And the herbal supplements had this giant sign on them. And the sign said something like, let me see if I can get it right. It said, proven herbal supplements that may help you. In bright, shiny letters, huge. With all the bells and whistles and all the really beautiful herbal supplements

wrapped around this table display. And I remember looking at that and thinking what everybody else probably thinks when they see that. I see the first word, proven herbal supplements. And I see the last two words, help you. And in my mind, I'm like, oh, these herbal supplements are going to help me. And it's proven. And then I stop and I take a second, thank you, agency. And I think to myself, what's the rest of the sentence say?

And right there in the middle of the sentence, it says may. And really, that's the important word. From a marketer's perspective, what they're trying to do is the opposite of what you and I do naturally in an argument. In an argument, you and I get emotional and then try to talk. But what marketers have to do, what politicians have to do, what advertisers have to do, they have to talk first and then count on the words that they are specifically choosing to then make you emotional. They have to say, proven and help you so that I get emotional and I skip over the most important word, which they buried in the middle that says may. Because it's not proven to help me. It's actually just proven that it's made of herbs.

Right. And I think, you know, when we've talked about this before, where, you know, anytime you're looking at advertising, media, news sources, politicians talking, keep in mind that those words are specifically chosen. Yes. Now, whether those words are precise and accurate in what they're describing or what they're speaking about, that's something else altogether, and that's something that you have to use your critical thinking skills to parse through. But they are choosing specific words, putting them in a specific. order to elicit the kinds of emotions or the kind of thoughts that they want, behaviors that they want to bring out from you. Yeah, exactly. And this is the reason that big businesses and advertisers have, you know, a huge budget

for attorneys and for legal protection because they need to let their marketing team create something and they run it through, you know, a management team that says they like it or they don't like it. And then they run it through a legal team to make sure they can legally say what they're saying because it's illegal to use words. that claims something that isn't true. But it is totally legal to use words that can be misinterpreted to mean something else. And that's exactly what I saw in that advertisement at CVS.

The word proven was grammatically used to describe herbal supplement. It is a proven herbal supplement. It is not proven to help you. But it can be inferred by myself and by who knows how many hundreds of other people crossing through CVS's all over the country, that they are seeing in their mind's eye that these supplements are proven to help. And a lot of times what will happen is people will see something written with specific language.

Maybe they'll read an article, their hear news report that does have actually, that does use language precision and maybe it is accurate. But then when they go on to share that story with somebody else, they will generalize the entire story and that generality is now wrong or misinterprets or misrepresents. the specific language that they heard. And I think we really need to be careful there. Yeah, we need to be careful when we're receiving it and when we're transmitting it again.

Because just like you said, when we click the share button, there's a good chance there's an emotional reason we're clicking that share button. And like you and I have also highlighted before, once emotions get involved, everything changes. I think you were the one that coined feelings are not fact. Right? So what I am reading that makes me feel a certain way,

the only thing factual is that I have the feelings I am feeling. Everything else beyond that is really just opinion or observation or response. And there are certain words that you know right off the bat when you hear them that those are not specific words. Anything that sounds like name calling, anything that really kind of attaches a name to something. That's not specific. That's too general. When I think of you and I, as I reflect on arguments that escalates, escalating arguments bring more generalized. terms. Never, always. More, less, fewer. And then I need space. I need time. You don't listen. You don't hear. How can you not see this? These are all generalities. And I feel like, you know, it takes

five minutes of watching a 24-hour news station. If you watch anything that's on 24-hour news, you will see people using terms that you and I use when we argue all the time. Are you seeing this? Did you hear this, folks? Can you believe what you're seeing right now? Oh my gosh. It's what there is nothing specific about what you're saying. There's nothing precise about what you are trying to communicate. Let me tell you a not so pleasant way to de-escalate an argument is if your partner says, you always do this and you say, tell me exactly how many times. And you have to think back.

And you're like, okay, well, maybe you did it once last week. That's a true de-escalation right there because suddenly. I don't know. When I use that on you. Doesn't always go well. I'm not saying it goes well, but it is a de-escalation because it does bring, it pauses the argument. It makes you stop and think, you know, what is the scenario that I'm actually talking about?

Maybe it feels like always because I happen to have heightened emotions right now. But in reality, it was one time last week that something happened. And then like we can talk about that one specific instance. And that's really interesting because I like what you're saying in a funny way is that we can interrupt the emotion. Yes. You can interrupt the emotional hijacking that happens, whether it's happening at work, whether it's happening in the bedroom or the boardroom, wherever you're arguing, when you insert a

question that demands a specific answer, when did I say that? When did that email come in? When did the client ask for that request? And I've seen this play out. I don't know how many times. It forces everybody to know they can't move on with the conversation until they have a specific answer. That can be frustrating. It can be irritating. It can be annoying. But it brings that precise language back into the equation. And if someone doesn't remember or if they don't have the answer or if they can't find it right away, it changes the course of the question. Now all of a sudden, the boardroom meeting that was about to tank because, you know, the sales team and the customer service team were yelling at each other about what the client said they expected. That whole argument goes away because now people are on the same side looking for what did the client expect.

What did we promise the client? And now that destructive argument can become a constructive conversation. Right. I mean, a lot of these things, just by putting some critical thinking into the words that are coming out of your mouth or the words that are being received by your ears and then asking questions. I think asking questions is so key to really clarifying things that you hear from other people. And not just the question. It's not just asking a question. It's asking a question using the same practice of specific words and precise language.

Tell me when that happened. Tell me what date. Did you receive a phone call? Was it communicated via social media? Finding the right specific specific, precise terminology in your question is going to bring force people to respond in a precise, clear, and concise way. Yeah, that's a great point. The more precise you are, the more precise other people are forced to be.

Absolutely. And I would say that really what I love about this topic and what I love learning in every marital argument we have, but also what I love learning every time I engage a new client or a new contract or even when we're with our kids, I love when words specificity and precise language saves the day. I love it when it pulls us back from the brink. Love it when it fixes everything at the end of the day because the right question led to the right answer and then the right question and answer combination put us on a very constructive path.

And then it's just so easy. It's so easy to move forward from that point. Right. Just, I mean, you brought up the kids too. I mean, there are so many times when our oldest will say something in a very generalized language. You know, and he's only seven, so you can expect it. But then we try to guide him to be more. precise. I don't feel good. What do you mean you don't feel good? What doesn't feel good? Or I never

get to watch TV. But it's the difference. It's the difference between a 911 call and understanding that he doesn't feel good because he hasn't had ice cream in two weeks. And then, you know, I have less sympathy. But my point is, you know, that's a, I think the kids is a very over-dramatized, but excellent example of just how bad generalities can take you off of the path of, of, accuracy. I don't like this. You make me mad. You know, whatever else it might be, you've got to dig in with specifics. Does your body hurt? Does your head hurt? Is it your finger? Is it your toe? Are you sad? But by going through the process with them, exactly. The children will learn and it will change their perspective on things. Just like we said, once you can stop the emotion and draw attention

to what's actually going on, the child's perspective will, you will see it change on their face. They'll understand that their feeling of I'm really bummed out because I never get to watch TV is actually They want to watch a specific show. They're kind of bored. You know, you can find those things just by sitting down with them and asking those questions and then giving them the precise words Which honestly with a number of adults you're going to have to do the same thing Some people just aren't going to aren't used to using precise words and you can give those to them You can offer up ideas and be a good example yourself as a a good way of doing it as well. I found with, especially in professional settings, if you set your own expectation and give it to the boss. So boss, I think what you're saying is that you want me to

increase sales by 5% in the next quarter. Is that correct? That you're giving them the specifics that they're looking for. They may have started it with, hey, we're a little nervous about your numbers. Your numbers, your numbers are causing me some concern. That's not specific language. If you're an employee that has ever had to sell something and you've heard that you know what I'm talking about or if there's you know rumors going on about hiring or firing you want specifics if you can come up with the specifics and put them into your boss's hand so that all the boss has to say is yes or no then we're into the then we're into the realm of your dad yeah that polite yes versus the real yes and you can always dig into that too and you can say hey can I get that in writing can I get that via email you know

can we get a hard commitment on that you know right now with a signed receipt whatever it might be But the takeaway message, I think, that we're both trying to communicate here, is that word specificity and language precision are huge benefits. They give clear information, clear expectations, they are received and transmitted with high confidence that the other party is going to understand them. It's a best practice that we're taught in the intelligence world because there's no room for ambiguity. There's no room to communicate risk about war or treason. or anything else of a national security issue with words that are not precise and not specific. The way that we can bring that practice into our everyday life is by practicing word specificity and language precision in the questions that we ask. And then like you said, giving specific words,

giving precise words over to whoever we're talking to, whether it's a spouse or a child, a coworker or a boss, give them specific words, define those specific words and invite them to use those words when they respond. And if you can do that, you not only master the information that you are working on in that moment, but you're also building a stronger relationship with whoever you're working or living with because they understand how to communicate to you. You understand how to communicate to them and you are that much tighter of a team, that much tighter of a unit. Yes, absolutely. And that is everyday espionage. Everyday espionage is dedicated to one thing, educating everyday people.

I know that not everyone will listen, but those who listen will learn. If you learned something new today, click subscribe, review, and share the podcast with a friend. Find me on social media at EverydaySpy or on my website, Everydayspy.com. If you are up for a special challenge, visit Everydayspy.com forward slash operations. and join me for an authentic spy training mission. And above all else, remember that knowledge is freedom.