EverydaySpy Podcast - The Battle For Taiwan: Covert Influence vs Military Force | EverydaySpy Podcast Ep. 30

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

2024 just started off with a bang! The Taiwan elections, US Missile attacks in Yemen, and the inevitable failure of New Year Resolutions are all on the docket for Jihi and I in our first conversation of the new year. If you are concerned about what is coming in the weeks and months ahead, let us share our perspective and feel free to drop your own comments on where you agree, disagree, or learn something new. Find your Spy Superpower: https://everydayspy.com/spyquiz Learn more from Andy: https://everydayspy.com/ Join the SpyTribe: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EverydaySpy/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/everydayspy/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/EverydaySpy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In October, there was a massive surge in support for the KMT. Also in October, you had dozens of news outlets reporting on Chinese influence campaigns inside Taiwan in the final months leading up to the election in order to start seeding influence campaigns that would ultimately result in a win for the KMT. You can literally see, you can put a pin on it. When China started pouring money and pouring effort and resources, into covert influence in Taiwan. So it looks like Taiwan has chosen who they want to be their next president.

Yeah, I saw that this morning. I actually was surprised I had to look for it. So it's Sunday here and I don't get my daily newsletters on Sunday. But I was surprised I pulled up AP and it wasn't at the top. It was, you know, the 100 days of the Hamas-Israel conflict is at the top. And then I had to really search the news site for news of Taiwan's election, which honestly, to me, and I think to you, it's really big news. Yeah, it's really interesting to me too, because not only was the election hard to find, but any of the information in the lead-up to the election was hard to find. And I mean, so I think what you and I are both agreeing on is that January 13th, 2014,

was kind of the first round of all the chaos that might happen in 2024 between the U.S. and China. Because understanding how Taiwan was going to choose its next president was going to tell a lot about how the U.S. and how China would react to Taiwan throughout 2024. And not just that, but I think it tells us a lot about the level of influence, like the success that China has or has. not been having on influencing the people in Taiwan. And, you know, I would love to pick this apart because you're exactly right. The details are super important.

So essentially, you know, January 13th, which for you and I was just yesterday, Taiwan voted to continue the presidential election sequence of the DPP, right, which is one of their two primary parties, even though there were three parties that were racing for presidency this year. So the presidency continued with the DPP, which is the same party that had control for the last few years and has continued to push for some kind of separation or independence from China. Essentially, the DPP is the party that China does not want to be in control of Taiwan. Correct. Yeah. And what's funny about that to me is that the original.

government of Taiwan, the original government of China that was exile to Taiwan in 1949 was actually the other party, the KMT, the Komen Teng Teng, the KMT party was the party of Changkhaishk. Changk was the actual original nationalist leader of China before Mao Zedong. And the KMT has for a long time been very pro-U.S. But right now in 2024, what we actually see is a flip-flop. The KMT wants closer relationships with China, and the DPP wants closer relationships with the U.S. So here in this incredible way that only history works,

the original outcasted government from China that was exiled at Taiwan, the KMT, wants to return back to closer ties with China. And the DPP, this completely new progressive party, wants closer ties with the U.S. And those were the primary two parties racing for the presidency yesterday. Yeah. And it's funny that you say that about how political parties can shift because we've seen it

in American history too where the Democratic and Republican parties of the 60s are not the same Democratic and Republican parties that we have now. So it's just fascinating to watch how a political party can really shift over the years and look completely different in modern times. And, you know, I agree with you. I think that it's, I mean, I'm, I am of course excited that the DPP, you know, had their candidate win. But I am interested to see, you know, what happens now.

How does China handle this? It's a blow to them, right? It's a blow to their efforts thus far. So how will China handle it moving forward? Why were you excited that DPP won? You know, I, it's because I think that if a country and the people want to reunite with a previous, you know, they're a previous part of, you know, what they used to be, then that's great, but it needs to be up to them. And I think that China has been increasingly aggressive towards Taiwan.

and I don't think that's the right way. So if China was neutral and Taiwan, the Taiwanese people, voted the other party in and were like, yes, we're interested, you know, in reunifying and becoming one people again and, you know, you and me same same, then sure, right? That's great. The people choose. But the people aren't choosing that. China's threatening them all the time.

And so I don't believe in forcing a piece. into, you know, what good does that do you to force a people to become a part of your country, whether, you know, regardless of whether you have historical ties or not, the force is the issue, right? And it doesn't do, I don't, it's not the right way, in my opinion. That's interesting. Did you see how the Congress, the congressional votes turned out? I didn't. Yeah, so in the Congress, the KMT won, the majority.

Interesting. very interesting. Yeah. So what you have right now in Taiwan is essentially the same situation that you have here in the United States. You have one party in control of the executive branch and a different party in control of the legislative branch. So the KMT, the pro unification, the pro-China side, essentially. And I'm oversimplifying, right? The formal political stance of both the DPP and the KMT is almost identical, which is comical in and of itself. They both say they do not want to formally unite with China, but they both also say they want to maintain the status quo.

So that's their formal political position for both parties. So how do you pick between the two parties? I think that's the big question for anybody in a working democracy is it sounds like both parties are exactly the same. Because it's what's not being advertised. That's what really matters, right? What's not being advertised is that the DPP wants to continue to separate from China, decrease their reliance on China, and increase their independence. The KMT wants to close ties with China, have closer relationships with China, and essentially kind of remain a client state, if you will, if not a full-on merged country. But my point with that is, while the DPP won the presidential vote, the KMT won the majority of seats in their Congress.

which is a huge change from the previous presidency, where the DPP controlled both. On top of that, you had record-breaking turnout in Taiwan, I think like 75% of eligible voters voted, which is a huge amount, considering the biggest in the United States, I think, ever was 60% wrote a turnout. So you had a huge amount of Taiwanese turnout to vote. However, you saw 10% less vote for the DPP. this time than previously. So they lost a huge base of supporters.

While they did win, they won with a 40% popular vote. The only reason they won was because of something called First to the Post. They had three candidates, so the first candidate to hit 40% was an automatic winner. So the DPP hit 40% first. The KMT, I think, ended at 33-ish percent. And then the remaining leftover went to the third candidate that nobody really talked. talks about. But, but so it was literally nail-biting. DPP barely maintained the presidency. And KMT took the majority in Congress and the third party, the third candidate that was

racing, that person and their party basically won the remaining seats in Congress. So the big question for 2024 is now that 7% majority, I'm sorry, that 7% minority party, literally gets to choose the legislation of Taiwan for the next, I think, four years. They literally get to choose whether they will side with the KMT or whether they will side with the DPP. And all reports during the pre-run to the election show that that independent party is more pro-China than they are anti-China. So what's really interesting about this, I think, is that I feel like China often takes a very long-term view, right? Because they can.

And culturally, that's how Chinese culture works. Taking a long-term view, they've, you know, they've had, you know, as the Chinese will tell you, they are thousands of years old, right? And, you know, they've had their culture for thousands of years. So what I find fascinating about this is China really has the opportunity, the government of China has the opportunity. now to actually play a long game if they wanted to. If they don't want to be impatient and take Taiwan by force,

this seems to me an opportunity where they could play the long game and continue with influence. Because clearly they're having an effect, right? They're pivoting hearts and minds in some way. So it's really risky for them. if they take Taiwan by force at this point, even with how the Taiwanese government is set up right now, because how the outside world is going to react to that isn't going to be great.

It might not be, you know, people might not be as up in arms or come to Taiwan's aid as Taiwan would like, but it still would look bad on China. It would affect their reputation globally, where if China chooses to take a longer path, then the fruits of their labor might not be, and, you know, for maybe another decade or several more years, maybe another couple of elections, but they might actually be successful in folding Taiwan back into China, at least, you know,

maybe not officially, but, you know, the way that they kind of slowly shifted Hong Kong under Taiwan and then abruptly brought it under, I mean, sorry, surely slipped it Hong Kong under China and then abruptly brought it under China. But, I mean, they could do something similar. It just depends how, how long are they willing to wait, right? How much patience would they have trying to influence the Taiwanese and really make that shift feel more natural? So if you take a look, and again, I'm just, I'm way too geeky about this than the average person. But if you take a look at the history of polls for support of the different candidates in Taiwan just in 2023. So if you just go back to January 2020, 23, and there's multiple, there's multiple sites out there that'll

show you the polling results. In October, there was a massive surge in support for the KMT. Also in October, you had dozens of news outlets reporting on Chinese influence campaigns inside Taiwan in the final months leading up to the election in order to start seeding influence campaigns that would ultimately result in a win for the KMT. So from my point of view, you have two independent sources polling in Taiwan and independent journalists outside of Taiwan who are corroborating the same information that China's influence campaigns started in October or really started to become hot in October. And you can literally see how in the polls the KMT surged in support. Now, you and I both understand how covert influence works. You don't just, you don't only fuel one side in covert

influence. You fuel all sides because you want to just create chaos. So during the surge of the KMT, you also saw a surge at the DPP, but it was a smaller surge. And you saw a surge for the independent third party or for the third party candidate as well. But my point with all that is just to say you could you can literally see you can put a pin on it. Yeah. When China started pouring money and pouring effort and resources into covert influence in Taiwan. And I would also say to your point that you can see elements of a Chinese victory coming out of the election because while the president of Taiwan is DPP, the majority of power rests in the Congress. And the Congress is majoratively held by the KMT with a swing party, a coalition party that is also pro-China. So to your point,

exactly, right? What we might be looking at is the opportunity for China to, yes, play the long game, but it's also absolutely a chance for them to replicate what they did in Hong Kong. Yeah. Because they have, because a pro-China government in Taiwan controls the Congress and a pro-China government or a pro-China minority, let me say it differently, because a pro-China minority is the swing vote in Taiwan and a pro-China majority controls the Congress, you now have kind of a one-two punch for legislation to be. controlled in a way that benefits China, where the executive branch, who doesn't really get to

control the Congress, the executive branch could be cut off and left alone. And this, I mean, this is how how Chinese law could be enforced, how Chinese funding could be approved, how executive initiatives against China or pro-independence initiatives set forth by the executive could simply never be funded and never be voted past the Congress. Like it's a, for anybody in the United States, who has watched how political gridlock has stopped progress in the U.S., both this current presidency and the previous presidency, once the House is controlled by someone different than the executive branches party, everything comes to a screeching halt for the executive. But Congress still controls day-to-day executive decision-making.

So we see the same thing in Taiwan. Again, way too much geeky detail in there. But the point I'm trying to get across is I would say that the, January 13 elections are absolutely a Chinese victory. And Xi Jinping is sitting in Beijing with a big smile on his face, not as happy as taking control of the entire government, but very, very happy that the KMT has the Congress and it's a pro-China minority that has the swing vote for all issues. That's a huge victory in the eyes of a political influence campaign because they don't have

to rely on forcefully taking over Taiwan. They now have multiple political and legal alternatives to simply, you know, the invasion that the world keeps talking about. Yeah. And, you know, I think I think this is a really important lesson for Americans as well. Even if you don't care about what happens with China and Taiwan, this is not your thing. You're not interested. I always see I'm a huge geek about covert influence. because I just think it's so, so powerful. It's so much more powerful in my mind than outright warfare.

And because when you win over the hearts and minds of a human being, you have those people for the long term. And it's so much more powerful to do it that way than to try to beat somebody into submission. And I think that this is an important lesson for Americans as we watch our own country's progression and we are in an, this is an election year for us. And, you know, I'm always encouraging people, you know, influences out there.

And it might not be covert influence from another government, you know, another country's government, but influence is out there. Everybody is trying to influence you towards their perspective, towards their point of view to get you to do what they want to do. So it's so important for Americans to really understand. that they have to find facts on their own. They need to make their own opinions. And if their own opinion is the opinion that whoever's influencing them wants them to

have, that's fine. But come to it on your own. That's what's so important. And you really just have to keep an eye out for all of the, you know, learn about what influence looks like. Learn about how, you know, your heart and mind can be manipulated and swayed based on emotions versus facts. I just think it's so important and it's, it's amazing to see it happen in another country and then to know that this year, we're in an election year. Every election year

is arguably important. But this year is interesting. It's an interesting election year in the United States. And it really is important for us to all be paying attention and to come to our, you know, develop our own mindset, develop our own ideas on what we, we want for our country, right? Yeah. And speaking of hearts and minds, I mean, you just a just a few thousand miles away from China, you have the U.S. now launching missiles into Yemen. So what does that do for hearts and minds? What does that do? What does that mean for Americans in this election year? Yeah, I think the the strikes in Yemen are interesting. The entire situation in the, in the Middle East right now, is, is, what's the, I looked up this word the other day, a quandary, a quagmire.

Quagmire always makes me think of that old cartoon I used to watch. But, you know, it's problematic. And we're, I think starting in the new year, we're at a point where it looks fairly bleak. It doesn't look like things are going to improve anytime soon. And the strikes in Yemen in my mind, you know, they're, they're, they're, tricky because I feel like if you if you were to you know put the you know put that situation into more of like a day in the day day day in the life you know context of you know if you have somebody who every time you walk down the hallway kicks you like at are you going to let them

keep kicking you or are you going to strike back not wanting a fight but knowing that this that could broaden into a brawl right it's just it's such a different like every decision being made and the various conflicts that are happening in the Middle East which are all related all connected are so challenging and tricky and what's unfortunate is I I don't think enough people are talking seriously about what's what's on the other end of this because the trajectory the current trajectory is not positive for there is no positive outcome currently. So something has to change. And I just, it's a little alarming for me that we had, you know, the United States felt like it had like something had to be done. Because, I mean,

the Houthi's response in the last news article I read about the strikes was like, bring it. Like, we welcome a fight with America. Well, you know what? Americans, I'm pretty sure don't want to fight. So if Americans don't want to fight, my love, that's my point. If Americans don't want to fight, what's the opinion of the average American that U.S. warships are sending rockets using U.S. munitions to attack another sovereign country. Right. Because here's the thing. It's it is this Houthi rebel group, which interestingly, I get so frustrated about this.

The Houthis were listed as a terrorist group until I think it was 2021. And then when the Yemen civil war kicked off and, uh, or when the Yemen Civil War was kind of at its peak, they were removed from the terrorist list because they were a legitimate government seeking entity. And then essentially there's a ceasefire in Yemen. The Houthis maintained control of Sanaah, the capital city in Yemen. And the U.S. takes them off of their terrorist list. Well, guess what the U.S. is thinking about doing now?

Putting them back on the terrorist watch list. And I'm like, guys, if we keep just, choosing who's a terrorist and who isn't, then the list has no meaning. We need to have a definition and we need to support that definition because right now what the Houthis are doing in Yemen is essentially a move that they're claiming is to protect and to support the Palestinian people by preventing shipments that are going to Israel via the Red Sea. And that's because Yemen has control of the Bab el Mendeb, the straits between Eritrea, Djibouti, and Yemen, right? So they have control of this little tiny sliver of ocean that brings people into the Red Sea.

But a historically incredibly important tiny sliver of the sea. Granted, granted, it is a wildly powerful small sliver of ocean. Yes. But that's what they control. So they're basically forcing the world to choose to go around the Babel Mendeb, which means go around the horn of Africa, go around the southern tip of Africa even, or come in from Europe in order to support what's going on in Israel. But they also mandate that ships going through that straight meet certain criteria, right? They can't be delivering to Israel. They must have open communications. they must respond to, you know, Houthi radio calls, et cetera, et cetera.

My point with all of that is saying they are not blindly attacking every commercial vessel. And they are most certainly not attacking military vessels. They are selectively trying to, you know, like create a blockade of support to Israel. I don't think that that's, you know, justified necessarily. But I don't know that that should justify. a U.S.-based airstrike against them. And the thing that's really frustrating to me is, of the 12% of ocean traffic that goes through the Red Sea,

that 12% is minimally impactful to us as Americans. Our most important oil shipments, food and grain shipments, our most important ocean transport does not go through there. 90-something percent of what we need comes in, safely without having to go anywhere close to Yemen. So why is it a U.S. military strike that's happening in Yemen? Oh, it's because it greatly impacts our allies. It greatly impacts Egypt and Israel and Europe. I'm fairly certain. So that's the reason we're stepping in. You know, who else is going to go? Who else has the power to go and commit the strike?

Who else is big enough to make the strike and not fear, not have to have a great fear about the backlash, right? And there you go. You just hit it on the head. You just hit it on the head. This blockade affects Europe. This blockade affects the UK. But the UK knows that if they go in and they strike Yemen, they're going to have hell to pay.

Because they're going to get pushed back from Iran. they're going to get pushed back from multiple Arab countries. They're going to have to, they're going to have to pay the penalty for any kind of naval strike. But the U.S. being the global superpower, being the biggest of all the kids in the playground to use your whole, you know, let's boil this down for everyday stuff. Like the big kid on the playground can basically kick anybody they want. And people might grumble and complain, but it's unlikely anyone's going to kick back. Yeah, and geographically, we're the most separated from the region. So it's harder, you know, I think it's harder for actual physical retaliation to happen on American soil as well.

Yeah, I know for me, I was very disappointed to see that the U.S. was doing this. I was disappointed because I don't see us attacking rocket launch stations and radar stations in Yemen as a winning move. because, and here's why, because Saudi Arabia did that for years during the Yemeni Civil War, and the Houthis still won. And Saudi Arabia is the wealthiest, largest, most military advanced country in the Muslim world. So the fact that they lost, and Yemen is their physical neighbor, the fact that they ultimately chose to back out of Yemen, what the hell are we going to do from 5,000 miles away? outside of just send a message to the world that we don't support the Palestinians that the Yemenis are trying to support.

I mean, it's just, it's very frustrating to me because the world of influence, which is what we're talking about here, we are losing the influence game. The longer that we back Israel and aerial bombardments of the Palestinians, and the more that we get involved, in now oppressing the allies of the Palestinians. Influence-wise, that's how the world is going to see this. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that I support Hamas. What I'm saying is the more that we support the just catastrophic killing of Palestinian civilians, the more that the U.S. supports that, the worse our influence outlook in the world looks.

Yeah, you know, it's when I saw the news about the strikes, I can't say that I feel like I have enough experience or background or knowledge to say whether I am supportive or not. You know, that was a military decision made by people who know a lot of things that I don't. But I do see it as problematic because I see the entire ripple effect of the Hamas is really conflict as problematic. everybody sticking their nose in, everybody coming to one side or the other. It's just, you know, people talk about how nobody wants a regional conflict. Well, you know, guess what we have. I mean, guess what we're adding to? Yeah.

As soon as rockets launched off a U.S. war carrier or warcraft into Yemen, like we just expanded the regional conflict. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny, what you were saying earlier about the, you know, labeling, the labeling of organizations. as terrorists, you know, I always try to remind people that when a government places a label on a group, on a country or on a group, it is because legally it opens up additional avenues. It's not like when an average person, you know, uses the word terrorism. If a government places that label on an organization or another government, it's for a reason. It's a legal

reason it opens up all kinds of other money and resources that can be used in the fight against them. And that's why you see that go back and forth because they're really, what they're doing is they're using that terminology to legally allocate money and resources toward, you know, towards what I don't disagree with you. Yeah. What I'm saying is what you're, what I'm saying is that your words are absolutely correct. It's just disappointing. It's disappointing to me that somehow we as the freest country in the world, even we are manipulating our own legal infrastructure in order to do things that we know legally we can't do in the current structure. So if we just tweak a definition, change a name, have a couple of friends vote for

it, now all of a sudden we can do things that we previously couldn't do. I mean, if that isn't, if that isn't corruption outright, it's very close to corruption and it's very far from democracy. And that's what's disappointing to me. If they can do that to if they can, if the United States can literally stand on an island that the whole world disagrees with, because like Hamas being a perfect example, there's only 12 countries in the world that label Hamas a terrorist group. But because one of those countries is the United States. Now, anything legitimate about the Hamas government that runs the Gaza Strip, anything about them that's beneficial, anything about them that helps with their economy or helps with their hospitals, anything about them is immediately labeled as terrorist according to

our country and those that align with us. But even the UN does not label Hamas as terrorist. And the UN is a huge body of countries. So it's one of those things where if the U.S. can be the biggest kid in the playground and just throw their weight around, how long before that power is corrupted, right? And that's that whole relationship between power, absolute power, corruption, absolute corruption. That's the struggle that I feel like I feel like I see it and I feel it. And I know a lot of the people who engage with our platform, they're also feeling that stress, feeling that concern, right?

What is the place where we are supporting democracy? And then what is the place where we are abusing our own system in order to just get what we want? So I think what's interesting there is the United States, the government of the United States, has a ton of power, right? A ton of influence, a ton of power. What our words weigh heavily on the rest of the world, on countries all over the globe. And so we have to really be careful about how we use that power

and how we use that influence. The tricky part is that our government changes every four to eight years. And it flip-flops, at least it has been, flip-flopping back and forth. So there isn't a long-term consistency in our policy. And, you know, this is, I find it really challenging because I don't see it, I don't see it as corruption. I see it as policymakers who are, whoever the policymakers are who are currently in charge, trying to make decisions in the moment, which we all know is extremely difficult, right?

just anybody who's a parent knows every time they make a decision with their kids in the moment. And then later on, you think, huh, I wonder how they're going to see that decision 20 years from now, right? Like, are they going to be telling their therapist about this one thing that I told them this one day that somehow impacted their whole life, right? I mean, that's what's happening on a much larger level, right? These policymakers that have their own political agendas as well. And then on top of that, they're trying to face the world. and make these big decisions in the moment, guessing at what the outcome might be

and making really challenging, not black and white decisions, making really challenging in the gray decisions that they hope are going to have that outcome that they want for their nation, for how the world is going to look. They're not necessarily making the decision based on what they think the right thing is. Right? That's not how decisions at government levels are made.

They are making decisions in the gray, hoping that it leads to the outcome that they want for their nation to retain power. I think that's really well said. So it sounds like while we have a lot of overlap on how we see the world, there's still some space between how we see the current present day. Yeah. And while 24 just got started, I do feel like the new year has been much better for you and I as a couple and as a family than it has been potentially for the net world and humanity at large. Yes. So I'll take that because I know one of the things I'm excited about for this year is our company is growing and our family is healthy. The kids are amazing. Oh my gosh. You and the kids, I got to spend 10 days with you over Christmas and New Year's because I've been on this TV shoot for the last almost four months. And I've still got two months left. But I got to spend 10 days with you guys over Christmas and New Year's. And it was just magical. It was so wonderful to be home. It was so wonderful to be there in the morning and to wear pajamas with you guys and to open gifts and to make cookies and to watch movies.

and to ring in the new year. And one of the things that struck me was I had completely, I had not forgotten, but it was not present in my mind that we have completely different Christmas and New Year's traditions than the vast majority of people that we know and really the vast majority of Americans. And it wasn't until I was home and we're like, we're realizing and realizing that, you know, are inside our house, we don't really talk about Santa Claus. and we don't really talk about New Year's resolutions, and we don't get excited for Christmas Day like everybody else does. So it was just, it was a really cool experience because to me,

coming home for the holidays reminded me of all these traditions that you and I have developed over the last few years that are so different than everybody else. Yeah. And, you know, I think, you know, part of what we've done intentionally is that over the last few years, we've cultivated our own traditions intentionally. And part of that was because we were living so far away from home, from when I say home, our extended families. So my childhood, I grew up. Everything was centered around my grandmother. Most of my family lived in the same city.

And so New Year's and Christmas were always at my grandmother's house. Everything was centered around that. But then as I moved away and then we got married and we lived further and further away and you couldn't go home for Christmas. we decided to make our own traditions because we knew we would be living around the world with our kids and we I wouldn't have that you know I wouldn't have the family to go to to lean back on like I had when I was a child and then last year my grandmother passed away and I was really glad that we had cultivated our own traditions at that point because I think I would have been really lost after she passed if we hadn't done that. So it's been really,

wonderful for us, you know, like one of my favorite traditions that we started before our daughter was even born was we learned after the first two Christmases that Christmas Day could be really overwhelming when you have a child because everybody gives them 50 presents. Christmas Day was miserable. Yes. Once we became, once I, yeah, once I became a parent from my point. Christmas Day became one of the worst days of the year. Yes. Because you have this, you have a pile of of presence, you have this underslept over-anxious child or multiple children ripping through thousands of dollars worth and gifts. And not respecting the gift, not appreciating the gifts, not appreciating the person who gave it to them, literally just ripping through it to get

something new, only to then discard it and rip into the next thing to get something new and discard it. It was, I mean, the first three years of parenthood, the first three Christmases of parenthood were miserable for me. Yeah. So one of my favorite traditions that we started was we begin opening gifts early. So starting about five days, I think it might have been six days because we started it when you came home because you were our first gift was having you home. And yeah. And then we just start opening everybody gets to open one gift every day leading up to Christmas. So by the time you get to Christmas, there are only a handful of gifts left to open. And then every day, they've opened one gift and had an entire 24 hours to be excited and play with the gift.

And it's so great to watch them. And you can send photos to your families and be like, they love the thing you sent. But I mean, that's an example of one of the things that I really love that we've cultivated for our family. And that's, I mean, that single tradition has completely transformed Christmas for me. Because now every day, the kids and you and I, we open one gift. six days, five days before Christmas, right? Six days before Christmas. And when you open only one gift, you get that one shiny new thing and it's got, it is the center of your attention all day. So the kids love their toy, they share their toy, they play all day with their toy. And then the next day,

when they open their next gift, what happens is if they want to play with two new things, they have to play with their two new toys. And they're constantly, sharing and they're constantly trading and they're constantly playing together. And for that full 24 hours, whoever was the source of that gift gets all of their praise. So mommy, I love this gift so much. Thank you so much. Or Grandma, thank you so much. Or Aunt June, thank you so much, whoever it might be that gave them the gift really gets to be appreciated and honored for that day. And I feel like that's, that is so much closer to what I always believe Christmas was about, was about showing love and receiving love and demonstrating, you know, thankfulness through the act of

giving some sort of gift that carries meaning. But it's lost so often on Christmas Day when there's a pile of 30 presents or 15 presents or even seven presents. They just, kids just burn through it. Even adults, we burn through it and then we have this pile of like, here are my three pairs of socks, my seven books and my two board games. And now I'm going to put these things away. You don't actually appreciate any of them when you get them all at once. Yeah. I mean, I remember the day several years ago when we went through, it was a Christmas and a New Year's, and we went through, and I wrote down, because I knew a year later I wasn't going to remember what we had talked about. So I actually have in my phone written down what we decided intentionally our traditions would be. And I've

been so happy since then. And part of the gift opening that tradition that we've started is that it allowed, us an entire week, a focused week, as the kids are opening their gifts, to talk to them about what we feel the meaning of Christmas is. Right. So we get to have those conversations about giving, about love, about empathy for others, about, you know, what it means to us, what it means to you and me, and hopefully we are imparting those values to our children instead of Christmas Day, you know, and all the chaos is happening. Yeah, and they still get to open a bunch of Christmas. They still get the bulk of gifts on Christmas Day, but the reason it doesn't drive me crazy

is because the gifts that they're opening on Christmas Day are gifts from friends and grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins and all the people who want to give them that Christmas day experience. Yeah. But all the, but you and I make sure that the very special gifts for us that we purchased for them to make them feel like they're love. and appreciated and everything else. Like, they get those before Christmas so that we don't feel like we're being disrespected the day of Christmas.

Well, and what's funny is this year, I think in previous years, we've picked the gift for them, like, oh, please open this. This year, I didn't do that. But this year, the kids were old enough that they could, they literally looked at the wrapped box and knew what it was. They were picking them up. They were like, I'm pretty sure this is closed. And they would put it down.

They would pick up another box. like, I'm pretty sure this is my Deadpool action figure. I'm going to open this one. It was amazing to watch them, like sleuth through the gifts. Yeah, they were really good. It was incredible. And they were so accurate. And it's funny because I'm like, I bought some of those gifts while I was on the road.

They didn't even get to the house until five days before Christmas. And you wrapped them overnight. Yep. And still our child, like a lie, our baby girl, was able to look at it and be like, hmm you know what that looks like that looks like it's a Pokemon stuffy that's wrapped up and yes i want that in two days so i'm going to pick this other thing instead and i'm just like how did you how did you know yeah i was blown away it looks like it just looks like a bundle of wrapping paper to me what do you mean it looks to it's just mind it's mind blowing yeah it was amazing and then the other thing

that that was kind of miraculous that i was so happy about this year was this was this was the first New Year's, I think, in four years that we, you and I did not have a big blowout argument. Yeah. I mean, I agree. I loved Christmas this year, but New Year's was amazing this year. And a big part of it was because it really was the first time in five years that you and I did not have a fight on New Year's Eve. And, you know, it's funny because I don't know how many people relate to that story. but since telling people about how special New Year's was because we didn't fight, I've had so many people come out and tell me that they also have big fights on New Year's Eve. What a horrible way to end the year.

My heart was broken every year. No, I mean, no laughing matter. Every year since 2018, my heart has been broken the night before the new year because we have such, we would have some some sort of giant fight about something. Whether it had to do with staying up late, whether it had to do with being with the kids, whether it had to do with being intimate. Who knows what we would argue about.

But every New Year's Eve, we would have some kind of giant fight, and then all the fireworks would go off, and everybody's celebrating. And I just, it was a horrible, like, mirror to look at yourself in and think, this is how I'm ringing in the new year. I angry at my spouse and in the middle of a fight.

Yeah. And I think for the first couple of years, you know, I don't know that I really reflected on it. But then I felt like every year after that we started trying. And then last year was the really big breakthrough. Because last year was the year we had the conversation after our fight where you were like, you helped me understand that New Year's is really important to you. For me, New Year's was, we went to my grandma's house, we stayed up late, you know, what people used to drink. I don't, we don't drink anymore, so we don't go to parties anymore. So I was like, you know,

what, what do we do on New Year's? How is it special? I had never attributed value to the changing over of the year where you had. You, you really, it's special for you. It's special for you. and I never realized it. I mean, we've been married, you know, probably 12, it must have been 12 years last year before I even realized that New Year's was special to you, not because you get to go out and party, not because of the ball drop, but because you're ending a year of life and you get to reflect on this wonderful year of life you've had with your family.

And then you're beginning a new year of life, right? And that conversation with you last year was really powerful to me. And in the lead up to New Year's this year, I remember in December we started talking about it where I was like, we both came to the table and we were like, we don't want to have an argument this year. So let's talk about, let's pre-plan, what does New Year's mean to each of us and how can we celebrate in a way that is meaningful to both of us? And that really worked for us this year. And we were able to really just reflect in a. enjoy and I feel I felt like I got to know you better. And that was really powerful for me.

No, I thought it was, it was quite beautiful. So thank you very much for an amazing New Year. And it's funny to me that you, you never realized the value that I had for New Year, even though we've had our own tradition for New Year's for the last two or three years. Right. So our New Year's tradition is that on New Year's Eve, we carry a time capsule with us everywhere we go. And that time capsule has traveled all over the world with us. And on New Year's Eve, we opened the time capsule and inside the capsule are little trinkets and letters and pictures from the previous year that our children made for us, their favorite toy, little gifts that you and I gave each other. We put it inside the time capsule. We lock it up so that for a full year, we don't get

these little reminders, these little favorites of ours, we don't get them again until the end of the year. So essentially that means that on December 31st, 2022, we opened the time capsule, reviewed all of our favorite things from 2021, put all of our favorite things for 2022 into the time capsule, locked it up, and then for all of 2023, we didn't get to play with any of those things. We had letters to ourselves and notes to ourselves and pieces of art and whatever else. And then on December 31st, 2023, we opened our time capsule again and we were reminded of what life looked like at the beginning of the year. Yeah. And then we replaced everything again. So now all of our favorite things at the end of 2023 are locked in our time capsule and we won't open that again until the last day of

2024. Yeah. And the kids, the kids have really taken to this. They put in their own favorite drawings, their favorite paintings. I mean, I was shocked that how willing they are to grab their favorite toy. Yeah. And put it in the time capsule, knowing that in a year, they're basically gifting themselves their own favorite toy. Yeah. And then they pull it out of the time capsule. And they either love it or they're totally over it. It's up to them. But it's so interesting. to me that, you know, even though you knew that every year I was trying to, you know, reflect through the gifts that we opened for ourselves on New Year's Eve, you never really realized that the end of the year was so special to me. Yeah, you know, I think this happens to a lot

of couples is I was focusing on the wrong problem. I thought that the problem was you wanted to go out, you wanted to stay up late, you wanted to do some kind of festive party something and keep the kids up until midnight and watch fireworks. And honestly, on New Year's Eve, now that I am older with children. But, you know, even when we were younger when we were dating and I was, you know, in my late 20s, I wasn't really the type that wanted to go out and party all night and stay up until midnight. And so I thought that that was the problem. And I was like, how am I going to meet this expectation? I'm tired at night. I don't want to stay up until midnight. I definitely don't want to keep the kids up until midnight and then be, you know, low resource the next day. And in talking with you,

I realized I was focused on the wrong thing because you didn't care about that at all. What you wanted was us to have special time New Year's Eve and special time New Year's Day, where we were together as a family, focused on each other, focused on reflection, focused on goal setting. And it was so powerful once I realized. that I was completely off the mark and what the issue was. And I really think that happens to a lot of couples and it takes a lot of conversation. You know, for me, I tell people all the time, like, I have to hear something seven times before it really clicks, like seven times from multiple sources over a period of time before all those connections are really made for me. And I know that

frustrates you so much. But that's really what it takes for me. So after multiple conversations, finally all the pieces clicked together. And I was like, oh, it's not at all about drinking or partying or staying up late or fireworks. That has absolutely nothing to do with what Andy is sad about, right? With what Andy wants for New Year's. And that was, it was just so mind-blowing when I finally realized. And I thought, oh, I can do this. Like, I can connect as a family.

That's great. Great news for me. So now we have this beautiful New Year's Eve tradition that I love when we create, when we open and then repack our time capsule. The thing that is even more exciting to me is our New Year's Day tradition, which is what we call, you know, first family day. It's the first day as a family of the new year. So we do all of our favorite family things for the first time that year on that day. And we have our first family walk and we have our first family breakfast and we have some kind of first family sweets.

Usually it's first family cookies, right? But we have all these first family movie time, right? We have all these first family things that we do on that January 1st of every year that for me really feels like we're setting the whole year up for success because we're taking the time to block out friends and block out other family members and block out noise. and just restart the new year as us with the people that we care the most about. And for me, that's been awesome. Even though on second Family Day this year, I got on a plane and left you.

I haven't been home since. So I'm sorry. But, you know, I think the other thing that I really enjoy about First Family Day is it gives us, because it's such quality dedicated time as hours. little nuclear family that, you know, I get to, I get the chance to talk to you and to talk to the kids about the upcoming year. And sometimes, oftentimes we have stuff, you know, a lot of, oftentimes, you're booked out for like six months. And so I already know what's on the calendar. But, you know, it gives us a chance to talk about what's coming up this year and what do we want to

do this year. What, you know, we, we don't necessarily goal set with the kids, but I want to have an idea of what are some things that they would like to experience this year? Yeah. Yeah, we don't set New Year's traditions. Or I'm sorry, we don't set New Year's resolutions. And I think there's lots of reasons that we don't set New Year's resolutions. But we do set goals for the new year. And then we work towards those goals.

So it's funny because a resolution is kind of something that you do that just, it's a change in habit usually, something that you expect to start immediately. It's not the same thing as a goal, which is something that you're trying to accomplish in the next six weeks or in the next two months, whatever it might be. So we don't set New Year's resolutions. We set new year's goals. And you've actually set some very interesting goals for this year that are also related to some of the most common questions that we get from people who follow us. So one of the big questions that always comes up from our fan base and from our audience is questions about language. What languages do you learn? What languages are you teaching your children? What

languages do you recommend? You are the much more linguistically curious person than I am. I am super practical about my language use. Even though you have such aptitude for it. I appreciate you. But you have, you've set some language goals for this year. So can you just kind of share what you set and why you said it? Yeah. And I think just to, you know, touch based on, touch on what you were saying about new year resolutions. Like the reason that we don't do New Year's resolutions is because resolutions just like you were saying is there are oftentimes a complete change and they're set for a specific date. You know, on January 1st, I'm going to start working out. And the truth is that you and I live our life and from our time at the agency, we know that life is just constant

change. So there is no, I'm going to wait until February 1st and then I'm going to start this completely new habit. That's not going to be. be sustainable. You have to make incremental changes. You set goals along the way. You reassess them along the way. And that's how life really works. That's how you are really successful in life is by setting these big goals and then one step at a time working towards those goals. So for the last several years, I've wanted to do something with, I've been interested in various languages over the last several years. And this year I thought, you know, I'm going to stop stressing so much, because oftentimes the question that we get is what's the best language to learn

and what languages are you teaching your kids for the future? And this year I decided I'm not going to stress about what's the best. I'm going to pursue what I want. And then that is going to ensure success because that's what I want. So my first goal for the year is Spanish. I'm going to focus on my Spanish and improve it because I used to be. I used to be. fluence and you know if you don't use it you lose it and so I've I've roughed out like about six months where I'm going to watch Spanish news I'm going to hire somebody on I talki to chat with a few times a week I'm going to go you know review my grammar and I'll give myself about six months reassessing along the way because maybe after three months I feel like I'm at a point where I'm happy with my

my progress. And then the next language I want to do is French because our daughter really wants to go to Paris. And I am a huge, I'm a huge believer in learning at least a little bit of a language before you go to a country, even if it's just, hello, thank you, please, but learning a little bit of a language. So I've also been reading a lot of, um, I got the Christie novels. And I really want to be able to read the French in her novels. And, you know, I read a lot of fancy Nancy to our daughter and she has French words in there. So it's just kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of interest. And my goal there is not to become fluent in French. My goal there is to begin studying, start speaking, using the same techniques, right? Just every day you put some effort into listening,

into speaking, into reading, maybe touch on some grammar. And, building the language to a point where I feel like I have what I want. And then the big one is Japanese. But that's that's at least a year away. And that's because I really want to go in Japan. Realistically, I think that your whole, I'm going to learn two languages in one year, the pragmatic side of me is like, that's not going to happen. We'll see. Yeah, I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to be proven wrong. But what's really interesting to me is that it's easy for me to support all of your language choices because I want our children to learn along with us. Yes.

And the way that I choose what languages I want the children to learn, I think the way that we both really choose, it's not my choice. But the way that you and I both look at language for the kids is in terms of utility. Yeah. They already speak the most useful language on the planet, English. The second most common language on the planet is Spanish. Not in terms of population, but in terms of number of different countries where you need the language in order to survive day to day. Spanish is also very culturally significant for us because both of our families are from Latin America and there are family members, some who still don't speak English.

And so that's a cultural connection for us as well. I agree. So the children already know English. So as we continue to educate them in Spanish, which is a slow process, because we're a slow process, because. they're not always interested. We live in an English speaking place. So as you get your Spanish to a point where it can be mastered, that gives us the ability to relocate to a Spanish-speaking country. Even if it's just for weeks or months, we get to relocate to that country and immerse the children in Spanish while you also get to immerse your own self in Spanish. I get to be reminded

of how badly I need to start practicing my Spanish. And we go through that cycle. And then we will most likely come back to the United States and you will begin your course of study in French while maintaining your Spanish and while we maintain the children's Spanish that they learn from their immersive process. And again, French is an incredibly useful language because throughout Europe and throughout the UN, French is the official language of the UN. So you end up having children that can speak English, Spanish, and French, or even if it's just basic literacy in all three languages, right? That gives them the ability to communicate almost anywhere they might stand in the world. They could stand on any two foot by two foot patch of ground on the planet and be able to communicate their needs to somebody in one of those three languages. And the probability is that whoever's listening to them will also understand one of those three languages. And that's to me just incredibly valuable because now we're not teaching them things that we think

are going to be strategically important for the next century. We're teaching them what's going to be practical. If they know what's practical, they can choose for themselves whatever they want to invest their time in. They can choose Chinese or they can choose Russian or they can choose Maori for all I care, right? But my job as a parent is to prepare them for success anywhere they choose to lay their roots. and that's why I'm I'm super excited for your language plan because you like I said, you're the more curious one. I may have like some built-in capability for language, but I just don't have the interest that you have for it.

It's very pragmatic for me. Yeah. So and I think that part of part of what's important to me is that the kids really do look to you as a look to their parent as a model. So if they see me learning language, any time I start studying a language, the kids are immediately interested. They might not sit down with me and study along every day of the week, but they are immediately interested in new languages. And for me, language is the key to the soul of a culture. When you learn somebody's language, you learn about their culture, about their thought processes, about their history. It's just this window into the soul of another person.

And I just, that's so fascinating to me. And the only way I feel like you can truly understand the soul of somebody from France or the soul of somebody from, you know, Mexico. Mexico or the soul of somebody from, you know, the UAE is to speak the language, to start learning the languages and the little nuances and languages that, that teach you. you the thought processes of that culture that has historically been cultivated. I'm such a geek about language. So, but yeah, and I think for children too, so being the example, because if they see you doing it, they will be interested. And then I think, honestly, you can start with any language,

because as soon as you start the practice of learning a new language, a language that is not your native language, you can apply that to any language. So if what you pick is Swahili first, Learn small healy. And then if you decide you want to get a job and Arabic is the language you need to learn to get the job you want, you'll have the foundation of having learned a new language already. So just start somewhere. Pick something that you're interested in and get started. That's all you need.

So folks, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today. It's obviously been a very exciting start to 2024, both for all of us as common human beings, but also for Ji and I as parents and a married couple and indebted. individuals and we wanted to share a little bit of that with you. So if you would like the conversation, please hit the like button, hit the subscribe button, leave us a comment, share us with a friend, tell us what you like, tell us what you didn't like, and drop a question. So we have something to answer for you the next time that we record again. This was our first conversation for 2024.

And it was a great conversation. It went a little bit longer than we sometimes go, but that's just because there is so much going on. There is so much to talk about. There is so much exciting stuff happening in the world right now. And we are so excited to be able to share it with you. Thanks again. Tune in next time. Leave your comments below. Hit subscribe and share us with a friend and we'll talk to you soon.