EverydaySpy Podcast - The DESTABILIZATION of AFRICA: CIA Spies Tell ALL | EverydaySpy Podcast Ep. 23

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

Check out AURA digital security for yourself for 2-weeks absolutely FREE by clicking on my sponsor link here 👉 https://aura.com/everydayspy Strong-man governments are on the rise and authoritarian regimes are growing in popularity by the day. Nowhere is proof of this massive global shift more clear than in Africa where a record number of coups have taken place in once-hopeful democracies. But before you judge war-torn Africa as a lost cause, consider the fact that we live in a world that rewards the strongest. In fact, you might even be guilty of it in your own house, just like me… Find your Spy Superpower: https://everydayspy.com/spyquiz Learn more from Andy: https://everydayspy.com/ Join the SpyTribe: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EverydaySpy/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/everydayspy/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/EverydaySpy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The 1960s, which was a peak of revolutionary turnover in Africa, there was a movement that went pro-democracy. Since then, African countries, the people themselves, have seen some growth and some development, but they've also discovered that democracy is slow. And it's vulnerable. When you treat everybody as an equal, then you assume that everybody has equal invested in the outcome of the state, which is not true. Through this period of increased investment in the democratic system, it didn't work. What do you think is one of the most important things happening in the world right now? I think that I've been keeping my eye on the coups in Africa lately.

I think that it's an interesting shift that's happening that's been happening in the last decade or so. It's funny because most people don't realize that Africa is a very tumultuous place. There's always change happening, but that the change that has happened recently is kind of unique because while coos in Africa are kind of a running joke, the frequency of coups is not funny. Right. And what's being highlighted lately is that what we're seeing now we haven't seen since the 60s. So it seemed like Africa was on a trend.

African countries were trending a certain way. They were trending democracy too. They were trending democratic. Right. And now in the last decade, we've seen that trend completely fall apart. Which is really interesting when you think about the fact that not long ago there was an African Union group that went to both Kiev in Ukraine and St. Petersburg in Russia to try to talk to Putin and Zelensky both about the ongoing conflict in Europe. Right. Plus, you have the growth of the bricks from being a five-nation trading sector to essentially now, I think that they are third.

13 member nations. Yep. Like the developing world is very much taking a front and center, front and center position in ongoing international events, right? So the developing world, that is Africa. Africa is a huge chunk of the developing world. Yeah. Well, I mean, not just a huge chunk of the developing world,

but a huge chunk of the earth's resources, right? Africa, the continent of Africa, I believe, is larger than all of, all of the United States of America, all of Europe, all of China, all of Russia, like shoved together. Yeah. So that landmass is full of really important resources for the rest of the world. And that makes everything there, everything that happens there, it makes it important. I remember when I was at the agency and they were prepping me for my first Africa-related

mission. And I was like, I mean, I was 27 years old, 28 years old. and I kind of knew nothing about nothing. And I remember thinking to myself, who cares about Africa? Right? Like, it's poor, like it's broke. It's all dirt roads and single-story buildings.

Like, who cares about Africa? And then during my research, my prep for the actual operation, they had me look at Africa as a continent and not as like a figment of, like, geopolitical definitions. when you actually look at Africa on like Google Maps or Google Earth and you look at it from a satellite view, holy smokes, you can see how resource rich that entire continent is. North Africa's desert, South Africa's desert, but then the whole center of Africa is jungle. And where there's jungle, there's rich soil, there's minerals in the earth, there's raw materials,

There's trees, there's people, there's life, there's water. It's unreal how rich Africa really is. Right, right. And then how, you know, what makes that important is the, what creates value there, right? Because we all live on land that has the potential to bear resources that are valuable. What makes those resources valuable is the ability to actually extract the resources and put them into something else that's valuable.

which has traditionally been done by outside countries, right? Outside countries coming in and making, you know, creating influence or making arrangements so that they can take those resources in exchange for something else. And oftentimes what they're exchanging is infrastructure and know-how, right? Because if you're, I mean, if you're a poor country full of uneducated people but you're resource rich, the hardest thing for you is extracting the resources and then refining them into something sellable. So when you have a first world country come in and offered a partner with you, they'll bring in their knowledge, their resources, their know-how, they'll build the infrastructure in your

country and then train your people to extract the resources with essentially the promise that 20 years, 30 years, 50 years from now, you'll have your own indigenous capability. Right. And that's been the way that the Middle East and that's the way that, you know, old oil in the 1970s, and that's the way that most of Africa, even now, is kind of abused because first world countries come in and make these deals. Yeah. And then the dictator or the, or the semi-permanent government of that country says yes. Right. And I think part of, you know, a large problem with African countries has been the instability. So, you know, throughout history, outsiders have.

have come in, have exploited various people around Africa. Africa was made up of different countries than they have now, previously tribal systems, you know, and then you had Westerners come in and colonize, steal people, you know, as resources. I mean, just, you know, really horrible things that have in the long run created a lot of damage. And when at a time when I think, you know, there was a time when the West was pretty aggressively trying to export democracy as the solution. The solution, the way, right?

You know, it looked like, you know, African countries were going to pick up on that as a solution and run with it and be profitable and be successful. But the truth is you can't take a system that, you know, for example, for America was basically homegrown, right? Like America was born out of a revolution and we decided that we would be a federal Democratic Republic, right? We decided that on, the people here decided that on their own. That was the revolution. Yeah. But you can't export that and just plop it on to other people who have a completely different history and culture and ethnic makeup. I mean, within countries, they have, you know, their own ethnic makeups that make up one African country, right?

So, you know, it's not a surprise that it hasn't worked. And honestly, it's not a surprise when they poll Africans now. And oftentimes, you know, African people are in favor of a strong man government. You know, if the strong man can get things done, what they want is a solution, right? If the strong man can get things done faster, can put food on my plate faster, give me a job faster, secure my household faster. Yeah. Then I vote for that. Then I vote for that.

Right. It's just really interesting because what you're basically saying is that, you know, the 1960s, which was a peak of revolutionary turnover in Africa. And Africa is a continent with multiple countries inside it. But during that peak of turnover, there was a movement that went pro-democracy, 1970s, 1980s era. And now since then, 70s, 80s, 90s, African countries, the people themselves have seen some growth and some development, but they've also discovered that bureaucracy.

that democracy is slow. Democracy means bureaucracy. Bureaucracy means slow. And it's vulnerable. And it's vulnerable. Exactly. It's vulnerable because when you treat everybody as an equal, then you assume that everybody has equal invested in the outcome of the state,

which is not true, especially not in a continent like Africa, where multiple countries have dealt with everything from, you know, extremism to internal coups to, I mean, human rights abuses and the list goes on right in oh my gosh the stuff that exists in africa child soldiers and the drug trade and human trafficking like it's in it's a it's a wild west right but then so through this period of increased you know investment in the democratic system by multiple countries around africa it didn't work like it didn't bring them results no it was a facade in a lot of cases

it didn't change their economic status it didn't boost their lives it didn't make a measurable impact on them. Now enter into the 90s and the 2000s, strong man leadership starts to press in in Africa again and you start seeing the return of these hunters, these military coups that take over and oust the person in the permanent seat, the voted seat. Right. According to Democratic standards and a new strongman leader steps in and with that authoritative, authoritarian government, they can make things happen quickly. Yeah. And even though they make things happen quickly that benefit themselves as the strong man leader,

there is an actual measurable, tangible difference in the lives of individual Africans. Right. So then it becomes this trend where, like you were saying, when polls happen in Africa, people are actually saying that they would prefer authoritarian rule over democratic rule. Right. And African countries aren't the only ones who, you know, who prefer that. method. I mean, there are plenty of monarchies around the world that still exist. And that's, you know, oftentimes they're from tribal, tribal societies, and that's how it works. And that works

for them. And they prefer that. And that's okay. I think what's interesting to watch is how are governments around the world going to engage with these new governments? Right? Because does the carrot and stick approach work does you know where you say oh you're not democratic i'm i'm not dealing with you i think we're at a point where you can't do that i think we are at a point where we need to understand the you know we talk about this at the CIA too where you need to understand the culture of a country in order to best engage with them right whether you like their culture or not whether you agree or not you have to understand it because that levels the playing field where you can communicate with them and understand what their needs are, what their wants are,

and the best way, you know, I mean, if a country, you know, oftentimes, like, you know, the United States government gets criticized for dealing with countries who commit human rights abuses. And I agree. Like, it's a horrible thing that we have to deal with countries that commit human rights abuses. But the truth of the matter is that there's not really much we can do about that right now right we can do lots of things that are going to take a long time to come to fruition education bringing people i um when i worked as a social worker we worked with a lot of refugees from various african countries um and uh at the time um a female genital mutilation um like female circumcision was an issue that was often talked about.

And from those conversations about FGM and what to do about it, FGM, female general mutilation, came the idea, I learned the idea that change has to come from the inside, right? And a Western, I cannot go to a country or a tribe that practices FGM and say, that's messed up. you guys need to stop doing that. It has to be somebody from that tribe who goes out and educates themselves and broadens their perspective and then takes it back. So there's a number of, I think, really interesting points here that I would love to dig into. And before we jump into, you know,

the spy lesson that's hiding just under the surface here and the long-term impact of what we're really saying is a decline in democracy across Africa. I want to take a moment just to thank our sponsors. Now, the sponsor for today's conversation is ORA. And ORA is a cybersecurity company for the everyday person. And GE and I use ORA. We're proud users of ORA. We log into it. We have our own profile.

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level. I want you to check out aura.com and if you are you're looking for a cybersecurity solution, the best place to go today right now is go to aura.com forward slash everyday spy where you can sign up for your own two-week complimentary free trial offer where you can get to use and apply Aura to your lifestyle and your digital persona today. Go ahead and click in the description box below and you'll find a link there for Aura.com forward slash everyday spy or you can visit it yourself by putting it into your own browser window at Aura.com forward slash everyday spy and you will find your way to your own complimentary two-week free trial offer with Aura of the sponsor for this fantastic conversation. Now you were talking about the decline in democracy across Africa

and you were talking about the importance of change happening from within. And I think this is really important because we're talking about the increase in coups that have happened in Africa, a developing nation and a developing nation with increasingly close ties to our eastern adversaries. Africa has grown closer as a continent to Russia and they have grown closer to China. They have aligned themselves with the BRIC's trading block. And this is not the Africa that, we so often think of when we think of this foreign distant place that's jungles and dirt roads, right? This is a developing country with a map or a developing continent with multiple countries

that have access to incredible amounts of natural resources. And when we talk about the coups that have occurred in just the last 10 years, they actually draw like a belt across Africa. We're not talking about just, this is only happening in central Africa. This is only happening in northern Africa. It's actually a belt of countries that essentially connect the Suez Canal all the way across to the Atlantic Ocean, right? And it's an incredible amount of connectivity and continuity across multiple countries where these coups have happened. Right, yeah. From the Red Sea to the Atlantic Ocean, you could walk, you know, 2,000 kilometers or whatever it is all the way across countries that have fall into military dictatorships in the last 10 years.

And these countries, I mean, the ones that we've talked to, I mean, Mali is one of these, like Chad is another one of these. These countries that have collapsed, Gabon is one of these countries. These countries that have collapsed have a history of at least trying to become democratic. Right. And then over time, they have on their own, of their own decision, their own volition, they have moved towards authoritarian regimes and even now are controlled by authorities, and the coups that they're experiencing are one strong man to another strong man.

Right. Right. And, you know, I think what's interesting is oftentimes when people think about resources in Africa, they're not talking about the people. They're talking about the physical resources, the, you know, the minerals and deposits and rare earth, you know, things that are there. And that's, of course, what China is there for. And the Belt and Road Initiative that China has. Yep. But the truth is that, you know, Africa, is full of people, people who could become really capable. And just like you said, if an outside country wanted to actually invest instead of just building them roads and taking their resources, they could build their roads. And then like you said, teach the people who were there,

provide jobs, provide education, you know, other outside countries, instead of going in and saying democracy is the best, have exchange programs where they go and, you know, the people from various countries can be educated in whatever country it is, gain an education in something that can help back home and in the process they're getting ideas and broadening their perspectives. And then the tradeoff is you have to go back home and take it back. And it's a slow process if you do it that way, right? It's more soft power than hard power. But that kind of, that creates, influence, right? And I think influence is what everybody's, I mean, that's what all governments are doing, whether you do it covertly like Russia does, or you do it overtly. And, you know, I think

covertly is generally faster because you're dumping a bunch of money into a very clear message. But overtly, I think, you know, has the potential to have a larger positive impact. And if Africa is positively impacted if if Africa is lifted up right that lifts up the rest I mean we're on the same earth it lifts up everybody else I mean I'm you know here's my idealism coming through exactly right I'm I really feel bad because I'm about to take a dump all over your idealism great because the truth is like you're right you're right influence is a time intensive and costly endeavor and that's why every time you consider an influence campaign right CIA taught us this Every time you consider whether or not to invest in influence, you have to be asking yourself,

what is the long-term benefit of the influence that you're building? Versus the short-term benefit if you choose to shortcut the influence. Like you just said, right? Covert influence can happen faster and in a shorter period of time. That's why Russia does it. That's why China does it. That's why they use leverage and manipulation to build influence with a strong man leader that gets shit done quickly in their best interest.

Right. That's the Eastern way, right? They don't care about the masses. They don't care about the people. They care about the resources that they can extract in a short a period of time and as quickly as possible with a few key decision makers. Right.

Because unlike the United States, unlike a democracy, where the decision makers are voted into power by other real decision makers, right? The constituency is the decision. decision-making body of the United States, that's not the way it is in Africa. Right. It's essentially, if you've got more guns, if you've got more drugs, if you've got more people, if you've got more eggs, you can get people to fight for you. Yeah. So then that's what

Russia and China bring to the table, right? You give us the gold that you mine with our tools from your minds and we'll give you more AK-47s and we'll give you more food and we'll give you more booze. and we'll get like, that's honestly how it works. It's still like, no kidding, horse trading. Yeah. Right? I mean, there's no way soft power with a long-term view is ever going to compete with that. Not in the short term, for sure.

But then in the short term, how do you counter the Russian and Chinese influence? That's where the trick comes. That's where it gets tricky. Because we have now, as the United States, we have regulated and policyed ourselves into a corner where we can't condone bribery. We can't condone essentially the way that the world works outside the United States. We've actually policed ourselves into an economic disadvantage. And what are we going to do with that, right?

Like 20 years ago, we could pat ourselves on the back and say, hey, we're taking the moral high ground and we're going to represent democracy and freedom for all living people. the thing is people may want democracy. They may want freedom, but it doesn't matter what the lowest level individual wants in an authoritarian country. Right. I mean, I think what people really want is their basic needs match. Exactly, right. People want security.

People want food, right? People want health care, water. Like they don't want to have one out of every four children die. Right. And it's like it's unfathomable to them that they can have it. Right. Because we have it in the United States. We have it in the West.

They're huge parts of the world that literally don't know what they're going to eat the next meal. Right. Yeah, it's fascinating. So for, so from my point of view, like, we're going to lose Africa. We're going to lose Africa until we can either go head to head and offer something compelling, like what our adversaries are offering, like what China's offering and what Russia's offering. Because they offer real benefits. Right. But the problem is, in order for us to compete with the likes of Russia and China in a continent like Africa for the rare earth minerals, for the resources, for the strategic value of their geography, the only way we're going to be able to compete in that space is if we play a little dirty.

And that's the thing. First of all, our government can't even pass its own freaking budget right now. Yeah. How dirty is it going to play in Africa? if it can't even figure its own game out here. Well, I mean, not to mention that, it takes a lot of money. Yeah. Right?

Like, China's dumping money into Africa. We're dumping money into Ukraine. We've got the places for money right now. And the United States has never wanted to dump money into Africa, ever. I mean, we just haven't seen it as a, you know, it's interesting because, you know, we have this democratic government. It changes every four years, you know. And we, I just think.

that nobody has ever taken a long view for the potential for Africa in the United States. And so we've never prioritized the financial investment that could have been made over time in Africa, where China has been investing in Africa for some time now, and they will reap the benefits of that. Well, China's also finding that not all of its investments in Africa have been wise. That's fair. Right? Because it's going upside down on certain loans, and its Belt and Road initiative is turning

out to be more expensive and it's productive. So for sure, countries, first world countries have learned that there are very real risks to investing in the African continent. That said, I mean, there's a way to do it that just hasn't been cracked yet. There have been multiple commercial enterprises that have gone into Africa and been very successful. Telecommunication enterprises, logistical enterprises, rare earths, gems and precious metals. There's been multiple industries that have made fantastic gains. adapting and adopting, you know, African culture based on the country, based on the tribes. Because like you said, the country lines inside Africa are kind of worthless.

Yeah. So, you know, people have had that success. But countries have not yet learned how to leverage geopolitical influence and geopolitical advantage successfully, especially not in such a volatile place where an entire government can change because a different strongman leader steps up to the plate. Right. Or a military takes over and undermines everything, right? So I think it's super interesting that you're bringing this up right now

because I think when you take a 10,000-foot view of what's happening worldwide, you kind of see Africa is a microcosm of the rest of the world. It has authoritarian countries, democratic countries, countries that are transitioning into democracy, countries that are transitioning out of democracy, countries that are very resource wealthy, but tax-based poor, and other countries that are tax-based wealthy and resource-poor,

like you have essentially a microcosm of the entire planet just in the African continent. So when you see democracy on the decline in Africa, you have to ask yourself, is democracy on the decline worldwide? And when you see authoritarian rule being something that the people themselves are asking for, you have to ask yourself the question,

is that going to happen worldwide? Is it, are we working in that direction? And frankly, looking at American politics, honestly, looking at American politics, I feel like that is what a lot of Americans are saying. They want some sort of strong man in power. They like to see the fighting across the aisle, and they want to turn a C-SPAN report

on the proceedings in Congress. They want to turn that into an actual win or lose blowout fight. How many people in the United States right now would raise their hand and say yes to a one-party system, as long as it's their party? That's fascinating. That's a really interesting question. And, you know, Latin America, the Latin American countries, as they began to free themselves from Spain, when they created their governments, they created a really strong executive.

because unlike England, Spain kept attacking again. And so they needed a strong man, right? They wanted the other components, but they wanted their executive to be strong enough to be able to just make the call. And I do think that's a fascinating question about the United States right now. How many people, if you ask them, would say,

yes, I want somebody who I believe in, you know, to be able to just make the decisions. Absolutely. I mean, I, between clients and customers and family members, it's rare that I come across anybody right now who values our democratic system. What they value is democracy, but not the actual way democracy works. They want to see, you know, a strong Republican leader. They want to see a strong liberal leader. They want to see the entire other party ousted.

They want to see an impeachment that's successful. Like it's insane. The stuff that they want is not really healthy. Look at what just happened with the Speaker of the House. Right? The Speaker of the House, the former Speaker of the House, successfully passed a budget and prevented us from a government shutdown. Right.

And was a Republican leader in the House, a Republican leader, for as the speaker for the house. And the way that he closed the door on keeping us from having a budgetary crisis was by passing a interim solution that got a budget across that actually benefited both Republican and democratic priorities. But it was a compromise. It was a compromise, but it covered both. And it was interim.

It only lasts until mid-November. Right. And somehow coming out of that, what I would consider a success, the hawkish Republicans oust him from office. Right? Like, he actually did what democracy is supposed to do. Right. Right.

He actually passed an interim bill so that the government wouldn't shut down so the American people could continue to have a functioning government only for another month. That's all. Yeah. It's unbelievable to me. It was a short-term solution. It worked exactly the way democracy is supposed to work. and he was punished for it.

Now, I have my own theories about his long-term, you know, political career being benefited because he was ousted by his own, you know, hardcore conservative brothers. But there's no, that's not a success. That does not send a message to the rest of the world that democracy is healthy and working. That sends a message to the rest of the world that strong men are in control. Strong men are the future. Yeah, because because the, the hardliners that, you know, pushed for him being outed, what the stance they're taking

is a strong man stance. Yeah. This is what we're going to do. If we don't do this, no decision gets made. It's, yeah. The stuff you hear come out of Biden's mouth and the stuff you hear come out of Trump's mouth is all strong man talk. Yeah.

It has nothing to do with accepting or acknowledging anything other than their strong man position. Yeah. Right. Like the way that you talk, Biden's whole like, for God's sakes, how can you let this happen? Like all you're doing there is you're saying that you disagree with something and you're belittling me if I agree with it. And that's why you're asking this like backhanded question.

And then of course, most of almost everything Trump says is like, this is stupid, this is dumb. This is the way it's supposed to be. So it's like two strong men. Where in the world did? real democracy go where we say, I can see the benefits of this, and I can see the benefits of this. And we have to decide which benefits we care about. Correct.

Where did that go? I don't remember the last time I saw it, honestly. And we're old. We're old enough that we should remember the last time that we saw this. But anyways, I don't know. So we've spent all this time talking about strong man rulership in Africa. And we have not even acknowledged that strong man leadership also. exists in our own freaking household.

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Except it's strong six-year-old girl. I'm pretty sure that's what exists in our household. Our daughter is. A strong man. The strong man of our household. Yeah. And I feel terrible about it sometimes because our son is like the kind,

gentle, democratic country. He's like everybody has feelings. everybody has value, everybody has needs, and he wants to try to, like, validate and help everyone. Like, what would you like to do? Yeah. I wouldn't really like to do that, but if you really want to do it, maybe we could do my thing tomorrow. Like, that's our son. Yes. Our daughter is like, I want to do this. And when you're like, I don't really want to do that, you can't even get your sentence out because she's like, eh. No, I don't really, ah. No, just let me, ferect. Like, she'll, she just railroads you. until you're like, for God's sakes, fine, fine.

We'll go buy you another LOL toy. I don't even know what LOL stands for. We're going to go buy you the freaking toy, right? Yeah. It's unbelievable. She negotiates. Oh, yeah. So we went and got a flu shot today.

Yeah. You know, yeah. We went and got a flu shot today. And I was like, kids, we're going to celebrate our flu shot by buying Lego sets. Mm-hmm. And my son was like, awesome, dad. And then a lie said, that sounds great. And I was like, okay.

you can have $30 Lego sets each, which is a decent size Lego set. Oh, yeah. Whatever you guys want to pick, you each get the same size and I'll spend $30 on both Lego sets. And there's plenty of parents out there

who are like, you're a dumbass. Plenty of parents are hearing this and be like, that's insane. But I was like, it happens once a year. And the flu shot has been such a bane of so many days for us.

Yeah. And I'm like, you know what, $60 is a small price to pay to get this thing done. Yeah. It's my son, our son, says, I wonder what I'm going to get for $30. Yeah.

Our daughter says, $50. You're like, what? $50. It's a $50 set you're getting me, right? No, no. I said $30. Well, we're going to do $50, right? No.

How about if we do a really good job with our flu shot? Yes. You give us the $30 set and another smaller set. Yes. And then the negotiation didn't see. stop. I mean, I kept saying no. No, it's $30. The negotiation never stops. It never stopped. Yeah. Like, no at the front door. No, as we walked in the garage. No, as we got in the car. No, as we got the needle stuck into her arm. It just never stopped, right? And then I swear to you,

the answer was no until we got to fucking target. Because you're such a pushover. they're carrying $30 Lego sets and then she just pulls something off the shelf and she's like, I want this too. Yeah. And then my son, our son is like, I don't really want that,

but if she's going to get it, I'll take one too. And that's how I spent $90 today at Target. I feel like teaching her math has been like the most wonderful thing and kind of like our biggest detriment because now she can add fairly big numbers. and she, like, she figures out what she wants, she figures out how much it costs, and then she figures out how she's going to get that money.

Right. And whether she gets it out of you, gifting it to her, or she gets it out of you, like, working for something. I mean, we had them sweep the driveway, and I was like, you know, okay, you know, if you both sweep the driveway, you have $3 each, because it's a pretty big driveway, and they're sweeping all the acorns or whatever that are falling off. But she's still like, and out loud, she's like, okay, this thing I want is $10. And you're going to pay me $3 for this.

And then I can help with the laundry, and that's $2 for that. So that's five. And she's like literally doing the math so she can get her thing. What work do I do today to do it? And then, like you said, as soon as you get there, she starts negotiating up anyways. Yes. Yeah. And that's strong man leadership.

But that's the thing. What I'm saying is geopolitics are happening in our house. Yeah. But also we can't be surprised by how geopolitics plays out because it plays out the same way in your house. Yeah. Yeah. She's not a bully. No. Our daughter is not a bully. She is just strong. Her will is strong. Her tone is strong. Her commitment, her tenacity, her dedication is strong. And when she directs it at me and I have to choose whether I'm going to be strong in response or whether I'm going to like, I mean, I rationalize it in my head that I'm just

redirecting the strength, right? Like, as stupid as this sounds to say out loud in front of you and thousands of other people, I agreed to spend $60 at Target. I ended up spending $90 at Target. Thank God I didn't spend $120 a target, so I win. Oh, wow. Because she could have gotten more out of me than she got. So I feel like I won. How fucked up. Like that's, I swear to you, that's what developing countries are doing all over the world.

Developing countries are realizing like, it could have been a whole hell of a lot worse. Yeah. Thank goodness we got this. Yes. And then it's only the other people. It's only the countries that represent our son who are out there looking at the whole thing going, that's not really fair. Yeah. Like it's not fair to dad.

it's not fair to mom it's not fair to me yeah and then you know he looks at his sister and he's like you don't have to act that way and she just gets a big smile on her face and she's like here i'll share my thing with you yeah and then it's okay i'll share my thing with you it's not your freaking thing it's the thing that you stole from me yeah so i think it's really interesting that example because um you know it is the this trade-off in a lot of places where you know yes there might be human rights abuses yes, there might not be, you know, journalists might be jailed, political opponents might be jailed. Quieted, yes, silenced. Silence.

But if the basic needs of the population are actually being met, how many people are going to say something when the previous government before them, they were starving? And that's the same thing's true for foreign countries. What foreign country can really come in and criticize a strong man leader if that strong man leader actually shows more people are eating, more people have access to clean water, it's very hard to come in and be like, well, actually your person abuses women. Right. But the people inside that country are like, yeah, but the last guy didn't abuse women and most of us died of starvation.

Right. That's really hard to like find a common ground there. Right. And every, you know, when you have a strong man leader, every single one of them is different and they have to be judged based on their actions. And I think our daughter is a really good example of that too because oftentimes, you know, she is very direct in what she wants. And she will take as much as she can get, but she also thinks about others, right? She also says, I want this, and then you can have this. Yeah.

And it's still this very, you know, it's not a take, take, take. It's a, I'm going to take as much as I can. And then I'll get some for you too. Yeah. So it's this very. I'll get some for you too is exactly how it works. Yep. Because she still prioritizes herself.

Yes. First. Mm-hmm. But she'll prioritize others next. Yeah. Which is really interesting considering how few people prioritize themselves at all. Right. Right.

It is, it's, so that's, I don't know what to say. Like this is, I feel like this is one of those great unanswered questions. One of the things that makes what, what do you say at CIA, human beings are sticky. Yeah. Right. Like, it's not clean. Dealing with people is not clean. There's a residue.

It gets stuck to your clothes. It gets in your hair. Like, it's sticky. And this is, I think it's a perfect example. Like, how do you solve Africa? I don't know. Yeah. How do you solve the developing world?

I don't know. Like, is democracy the right way? I don't know. To your point? I know it works here in the United States because that's what we were founded on. Right. I don't know how it's going to work in other places. Yeah.

And I know that strong man rule works in our living room. Our son kind of gets a better deal of things because his sister is a strong man. If it was just him and us, if it was just a three-person family. Yeah. He would for sure be a spoiled kid. But he wouldn't get half of what he gets right now. Right. He gets more because she demands more.

Yeah. And then shares it with him, drives it to him and, you know, obliges us to give more to him. It really is interesting. Like that can, it's a conundrum. He is better off because of her. She is a strong man ruler who pushes us all around. And if we stand up to her, what are we really, we're not really making out. If we stand up to her, this is, and this is important to me, right?

If I push back on my daughter's confidence and courage and insistence, like, insistence, I don't want her. This is how I want her to be as a grown-ass woman. Yep. Why would I break her of it at six? Right. She could be this when she's 46 and rule the world. I don't want to break my daughter of this undescribable confidence and courage and tenacity, right?

I don't want to trick her and redirect. I don't want to do it. I want to find a way to craft it into something productive. But good Lord, man. Like most of us, most of our peers spend their effort trying to encourage and trying to emboldened and trying to, you know, support their daughters to be the way that our six-year-old is naturally. Yeah. So it's really, I don't want to fight her.

I don't want to lose $90 every time we go to Target, but I don't want to fight her in such a way It ruins her. Well, and I think like you're saying, I mean, it goes back to my previous point. I think that education is the key. Education broadening perspectives because I really firmly believe that change within a country, change among a people has to come from inside. Those people have to make the change that's right for them. And there's possibly a form of government that nobody has even conceptualized yet.

that's going to come out at some point in the future, just like with our daughter, while, like, we are, she is naturally a strong man, but we are educating her, right? We are trying to guide her and give her perspectives and ideas. And so who knows what that's going to look like as an adult, right? It's not, she's not going to be the six-year-old strong man she is now, and she's 46, she's going to have this evolved.

Evolved from all these experiences and education. that we will have provided for her. So I think that worldwide, we're going to continue to see shifts and we'll have to see what comes out of it. And it will have to come from the people within. So speaking of people within, we tried to take a question every episode. Did we have a question for today? Yeah. Somebody asked, which I thought was an interesting question, was how do you persuade others?

This is a really interesting question. So the first thing that jumps to my mind is that we were taught that persuasion and influence are not the same thing. That influence is rational and persuasion is emotional. And that's the big, that's immediately something that always jumps to my mind, right? You can persuasion is something that's driven through the emotional brain through emotional response, whereas influence is something that's driven through rational brain. So, for example, if I, uh, If I'm a positive influence on a junior employee, then they adopt a rational, predictable behavior of being responsible and showing up on time and doing the right thing, right?

I'm influencing them, influencing them to ask better questions, influencing them to think before they act, influencing them to make some sort of rational change. Persuasion is very different. Persuasion is emotional. You persuade someone to do something, and it's usually a short, term objective, right? Like when a lie persuaded me to spend more than $30 on Legos. She also has this great persuasion face, which I think is something where she like squishes her cheeks and like gives you a little pouty face and. And it's very sweet. Yeah. And it makes me,

yeah. It does. It works on you every time. Because it reminds me of when she was like six days old and she was all bundled up and she just looks at you and it's just like, yeah. I'm just so just write a new check. But that's persuasion, right? Because persuasion is emotional. Because I'm taken back to her being six days old. I'm taken back to the feelings, the overflowing, like, joy and pride and relief of a new baby that's alive and healthy. Like that's persuasion. Persuasion is emotional.

When you, and I know that like, luckily, we were both kind of hussyish when we were younger. But like oftentimes when we're trying to get someone. to go to bed with us, we use persuasion, right? We try to trigger emotions, whether that emotion is like lust or guilt or obligation or whatever, right? We persuade, right? You had to persuade me. Oh, really? Well, I thought it was just natural attraction. Just not. You weren't wearing natural attraction that day. You chose what you were wearing. That's fair. That's fair. My outfit was persuasion. But I would ask.

That's persuasion, not influence. So, so when you look at a presidential debate, right, people are trying, the candidates are trying to get people to vote for them. So can you talk about the difference between during the debates, influence versus persuasion and how that presents? That's awesome. It's a great point, right? And we have, we have a whole e-book about this, right?

Our political playbook is an e-book that's available on our website, and it's all about this. Decoding debates. Decoding debates, thank you. We are in a season now in the ramp up to the campaigns, right? We are in the ramp up to the elections. This is a period of influence building. So the dog and pony show that we see on the Republican stage during the debates, the primary debates, that's all for influence. they're trying to convince the voting public on the Republican side, right, registered Republican voters.

They're trying to influence them into believing that a candidate represents a certain something, right? Nikki Haley wants to represent rational, you know, conservative values in a political, professional way, right? And Vivek Ramoswamy wants to represent change and, you know, and boldly. boldly moving into the next era and professionalism and, you know, diversity. Like that's what he wants to represent. And then you've got the former vice president, Mike Pence, who wants to represent. I've done it before. I'll do it again.

Yeah. Right? And super strong conservative values. They're trying to build influence so that they can get voters to rationalize commitment to their name right now and carry that forward. Now, what does it look like in the last like three months before the election? That's all persuasion. That's when they all come out and they start promising the sun and the moon and

we're going to get rid of this and impeach him and do the end of it. And like, Texas is getting cut for everybody. And free beer. Like anything, anything they can say in those last few months to get people emotional enough that they'll go into the booth and they'll fill in a circle that says what the candidate wants it to say. Right. So we're in a season of influence building now, and you'll see it.

You'll see it how it changes, that it will become a season of persuasion in the last few months. I can't wait. I can't wait. So those are all of my thoughts. Do you have any thoughts to the contrary? Like that's where my brain goes when somebody asks, what is persuasion? Yeah. So I think it's really interesting because I always think of it from, which is because I find it a

fascinating topic, the covert influence perspective. of, you know, covert influence changes the, you know, the hearts and minds of people. And so I think, you know, I think what you're saying is, you know, influence is the changing of the mind. Persuasion is the changing of the heart. And I think you can see that in covert influence campaigns as well, the ones that are known. Yeah. Where, you know, oftentimes I think what's highlighted is the persuasion piece where people are getting, riled up about something.

Right. But there really is an influence piece where the same ideas are just propagated over and over and over again. And the more often you hear the idea, the more solidified it becomes in your mind that this must be right. I've heard it so many times. So many people are repeating the same thing. You know, so I think it's just, it is an interesting distinction.

but they're both really important, you know, and if you're trying to use that, right, if you're trying to persuade or influence somebody, I think it's an important distinction to have in your mind to kind of develop your, you know, figure out how you want to approach the person and attain what you're going for there, right? Do you want to do the influence or do you want to do the persuasion? How fast are you trying to get it done? Yeah, exactly right. And what tools do you have to bear. Yes. Folks, thanks very much for joining us.

I really enjoy these conversations. I always enjoy these conversations. Even though it's a chance for me to admit that I'm, I adhere to strong man leadership. You're a strong man too. Nobody just gets to see what happens when the cameras get turned off. Well, that's why our daughter and I are constantly budding heads. Like that little puppy dog phase is not work on me at all. I'm stronger than you.

I know. I think I would have spent $25 today. That would have been capped. And then you can earn the rest. But if you enjoyed this conversation, and especially if you enjoyed the question about persuasion versus influence, make sure you visit our homepage. The link is in the description below. Go to Everydayspy.com. Check out our shop page.

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