EverydaySpy Podcast - THIS can make your relationship MUCH happier | How to Love Like a CIA Spy Couple

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

Meet Andy and Jihi this February - the perfect couples Valentine's gift! https://everydayspy.com/couples Marriage gets a lot of bad press, and it's no surprise why! Anyone who has tied the knot only to watch their sex-life decrease, fights increase, and stress peak around kids and career… we totally know your pain. But a ray of hope recently came out for married couples everywhere after a study at University of Chicago. Today, Jihi and I are sharing those results and giving you some insight into our own marriage… warts and all! Find your Spy Superpower: https://everydayspy.com/spyquiz Learn more from Andy: https://everydayspy.com/ Join the SpyTribe: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EverydaySpy/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/everydayspy/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/EverydaySpy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A recent University of Chicago survey found that in American couples, getting married, resulted in a increase, a significant increase in happiness, almost instantly, but only for the first two years. In the United States, after year two, there's a huge dip in happiness when you're married. A recent University of Chicago survey found that Americans are largely half. happier after they are married, but only for the first two years. No, that sounds about right. I was like, I don't know what study that is. Yeah, that sounds about right.

So I know you're coming into this conversation cold. I have been geeking out on marriage statistics for probably the last two hours because it's just something that's been on my mind. It's been on my heart for a number of reasons. And I'll tell you more about it why later. But I thought this was absolutely a brilliant, brilliant study. So let me just give you a quick overview. A general social survey was carried out by a professor at the University of Chicago in 2003. It took him about a year to finish. So it came out late

2003. Everybody's talking about it now in 2024. And it found that in American couples, getting married resulted in a increase, a significant increase in happiness. The same study, was actually carried out in Germany and in Taiwan, and the same result was found to be true, that getting married made people happier almost instantly. And in all three countries, it lasted for a minimum of the first two years. In the United States, after year two, there's a huge dip in happiness when you're married. Do they correlate that to? In Taiwan and Germany, in Taiwan and Germany, there were different dips, but the United States, had a significant dip. Do they correlate that to having children? That's what I wanted to talk about

with you. So the results of what they correlate all sorts of information to is really interesting. But I wanted to get your thoughts on just the idea of two years of happiness. Years two to four, the next two years are pain. Or the next four years, excuse me, are pain. Well, I do think, you know, we've talked to a lot of couples and a lot of married couples. And a lot of married couples. all of them at some point in the marriage have some kind of like very dark period where the marriage is very much on the rocks but it seems to happen I'm sure there's some kind of statistical average but it seems to happen for people at various at very different points in their marriage but it does make sense to me that the first two years of marriage would be very happy

because you it's something that most people I think have been waiting to do whether you've been with your partner eight years before you get married or you know one year before you get married it's it's exciting right you've been waiting to marry that person you finally get married as an extended honeymoon you're you know you're unpacking all of your you know wedding gifts and whatever and using them and being a couple together and it's official and you get to say oh my husband oh my wife whatever um so i can see that for i think if kids is the correlation to the dip. That makes a ton of sense also because they're such a resource drain and suddenly where you were focused on each other, you can no longer be focused on each other.

You have to have, you know, your focus has to shift to keeping this new life alive. It would be interesting to see for couples who don't have kids whether or not that's true, whether, you know, the honeymoon period does wear off or your shift starts to focus someplace else or your focus, sorry, your focus starts to shift someplace else. So I'm curious. correlation. Yeah. I'm sorry. Interrupting you. I'm so excited. Tell me. Tell me. The correlation is not tied to children. Which I love because you bitch about our kids so much. You complain about parenthood so much. And what that, I don't think that's a you thing, my love. I think that that's a very common thing. Yeah. I think that in every married couple, and this is just me riffing. This is me guessing. In every married couple, there must. be. It just makes logical sense that one parent would be much less enthusiastic about being a parent.

Like one parent must be like more introverted, more socially exhausted, more challenged by the notion of raising children. I mean, I'm guessing that there are plenty of relationships out there where both people are very like discouraged and exhausted by having children. But even when both people are exhausted. One of them must be more exhausted. Yeah. But we all get, we all feel like we have to be super parent. We all feel like we have to be constantly energized and always positive and always supportive. And we can, and we don't forgive ourselves for those moments where we're not those things, right? So what I found so interesting is when I first read this started, when I first read the study, I was, I was thinking exactly like you were thinking. Oh, yeah, there's a honeymoon period.

And, and, oh, you're my husband. Oh, you're my wife. I've always wanted to marry. you and I'm so in love. And then, oh, kids come and da-da-da-da-da, and everything falls apart. And surely those couples with no kids or those couples that never get married must be so much happier. None of that is the empirical case. Really? In fact, the happiness rating for long-term couples that do not get married is 25% as happy as the couples that get married. So by getting married, you are increasing the odds of happiness for you individually, 400%. I think that's crazy that if you just remain single, which is what you and I both talked about before we ever got married, the idea of never, never falling into the formal structure of marriage and never

officially tying the nod and like, oh, we're going to reject the man and we're going to do whatever else. Remember that? Yeah. We were cutting off our own potential happiness by as much as 4x 400%. So I am very happy that we got married. Because being married has made me very happy. Not always the same happy, but it has made me very happy. It has provided you great moments of joy among the other moments. So let me share with you what empirically does make people happy. It actually doesn't have to do with most of the emotions that you listed. So the things that marriage makes people happy because marriage brings with it a new level of financial security. So now, instead of you having to take, like always worrying about your own finances, you're actually bringing in another

partner who also has financial solvency, somebody who can also generate revenue or generate income. So there's an element that increases your financial confidence. You also end up having decreased anxiety and stress about ever being alone or being lonely. because you have somebody who is close to you and who is committed to being close to you. And even though not everybody takes an oath of marriage or vows of marriage, there's still a cohabitation benefit that comes from being legally married to somebody. And it's not just an American thing. It's an international thing. Even couples in Europe and couples in Asia think the same way. That there's an increased confidence that this other person will listen to you when you're sad,

hear you out when you're angry, forgive you when you throw a fit, like they're not going to just walk out on you one day. I have to imagine that in our relationship, you know exactly what that confidence feels like. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was just talking to somebody the other day. And, you know, we've talked about how, you know, our marriage went through a dark period. And I was telling somebody the other day that, you know, there was a point where, where, where, I got to a point where I was like, somehow I made a mistake and I'm clearly not the right person for Andy and I should just leave. And I expressed that to you. I was like, you know what?

I don't think this is going to work. I don't know how I was so mistaken. And I know we promised never to get divorced, but I really think that I should just go because I can't make you happy. And you at that point were like, absolutely not. Like we made a commitment to each other. We're seeing this through. We're going to work it out. And so I stayed.

and we worked it out. And then like years later we worked it out. But like a year later, you got to a point where you were like, you know what, maybe you were right and maybe we should get a divorce. And by then I was like, oh, no, no, sir. Like you made a commitment and you already got me over the hump. So now we are actually going to work this out. So it was, I thought it was really funny that, you know, we both held to this commitment.

And luckily, like at different points in. time we hit our low points, right? But that commitment is what kept us together because we were like, we promised each other we would never get divorced, right? No matter what we are going to figure it out. So it's funny because that commitment that you're talking about, I never thought of it until I read the study from the University of Chicago, but that commitment was part of what was making, like it was one of the few things that we could rely on during a time when we felt like we couldn't really rely on each other. Yes. I couldn't necessarily rely on you to like greet me at the door and be happy to see me and want to go out on a date and want to get dressed and want to do your hair.

And like I couldn't count on your support for work. I couldn't count on your patience with the kids. I couldn't count on, you know, whatever. There was a lot of stuff I couldn't count on during our darkest years. And what's also crazy is that we may not have been through our darkest years yet. Just that first of dark years, there was a lot we couldn't count on. But because we could count on the commitment, that gave us one thing at least that unmarried couples don't get. Right. And I can see how, you know, when I was in my early 20s, I met a woman who told me that the key to marriage was that you have to be committed to the marriage itself, not to the person. Because if you're committed to the person, then as soon as they piss you off enough, you're like, forget you.

I'm out of here. But if you're committed to the marriage itself, then you know no matter what, you have to find a way to make that marriage work. And that stuck with me all these years. And when we made our commitment to each other, when you proposed and we made that commitment to each other, you know, I feel very strongly about that. And that really is I can see how, you know, if we had remained just dating partners, I would have had tons of fun with you. I never would have had children with you and because I, you know, because I would have wanted the commitment of marriage to have children, right? But that I could see how, you know, if we had gotten into a really dark period, how much more easily we would have been like, you know what, I'm done. I'm out.

It's not even worth trying where because, you know, we married each other. I'm like, I have to keep going. I'm committed to this race. So interestingly, the reason that happiness ratings in marriages decrease, at least what the study is estimating. The reason that we see a decrease in happiness after two years isn't because of children. It's actually because from year three to year seven of marriage, we are renorming, readjusting to what a lifelong commitment to another person means. What it actually means to like have to shape your career. with somebody else's career.

Yes. What it means to have to shape your social life with somebody else's social life. What it means to actually be, support somebody through a layoff, support somebody through somebody getting sick or a parent dying or who knows whatever else, but some through major life changes. So essentially when two people get married, they control the day they get married and they usually get married at a time that's convenient for them. It's convenient for everybody. Like no major bad bad events are happening.

Nobody gets married in the middle of a depressed. impression, right? So everything's very happy. So the first two years are actually in the honeymoon period of your marriage is actually enjoying this momentum that's going in an upward direction. But the reality is that life has challenges. So then it takes about two years. And again, that's the average. It could take three years or four years or five years or six months. But on average, about two after the first two years, some major life event has taken place. that is now starting to galvanize the marriage itself, putting enough pressure and pain on the marriage

that one of the two partners starts to feel like, whoa, my life would be easier if I was not married, if I was single. Yeah. I don't like having to deal with your baggage or I don't like having to deal with your unemployment or I don't like having to deal with your, you know, mental health being something that impacts my day.

Yeah, you know, it's what I have found the most, most challenging and the most unexpected, although in hindsight, I feel like it's silly that it was unexpected, but I just, I didn't really have a framework or guidance prior to marriage was the fact that you change as a person, right? So your marriage to the partnership changes you, right? If you have children, that changes you. But the partnership itself changes you. And then you as a person change over the years, which people say, but I never fully understand. understood what that meant until the changes started to happen, right? Like maybe when, you know, when we were first dating, you know, we would go out to parties or to

clubs or, you know, we used to do salsa together. And a few years later, career was really important. And I wanted to focus on career. And I wanted to travel and we wanted to do different things. So suddenly, what we're even interested in, right? Who I am as a person, like our sex life, all of it changes. and it was all they were all things that I didn't anticipate and so when they started to happen and they started having an effect on our relationship I didn't know how to handle it because I I'd

never thought about it before I'm a huge believer I don't we didn't do like a premarital class I know they're offered by a number of churches but now that I you know we are you know gosh what this will be 14 years into our marriage I wish that there was a more standardized marriage class for people to take some kind of like, are you going to be in a long-term relationship? Here's what you should prep, you know, prepare for. I totally, like, I think that would really do a lot of people good in the engagement phase. Because if you can't make it through like a premarital boot camp, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be signing those papers. Well, even in the dating phase, I remember, I mean, this just goes to show how ignorant we are. Yeah. Of things that we've never experienced. But I

remember being unmarried and being in relationships and being convinced that if I got married, the relationship would get worse. You know what I mean? Like this is what's so fascinating to me about this study is it is empirical evidence. It is actual mathematical, you know, demonstrative proof that everything I thought was real when I was 26 was patently wrong. that somehow marriage would decrease your happiness, that somehow marriage would be just a bunch of obligation and burden and challenge and have no benefits to it, or the benefits would far be less than the obligations, right? The cons would outweigh the pros, right? I always thought that, and I had thought that since I was like 18 years old. And a big part of why I thought that was

because I come from a family that's full of divorce. Yeah. I mean, multiple. aunts, my own mother, like divorce, widowhood. It's just there's, there's all sorts of broken marriages that litter the background of my family tree. And I don't, I think it's a little bit like that for you, but not quite as acute as it was for me. But I just, being kind of grown up, being raised or cultivated in this environment, this soil of broken marriages, just made me think, what's the point of marriage? Like marriage is just a guaranteed pathway to heartache. And then you see the statistics in America about 50% of marriage is failing. And then when you grow up in soil that says marriage is bad. And then you watch the headlines that say marriage is only a one and two shot of

success. Well, then why the hell take those odds? Like I'd rather not flip the coin at all than flip the coin for a 50% chance of success. So I feel like I grew up in a different end. kind of the opposite where I saw, you know, my parents are still married, I saw long lasting marriages. And I was like, my parents are still married. They love it. I thought, I interpreted the fact that people remained married to, to mean that they were remaining in a happy marriage, which I learned as I got older that just because people stay married doesn't mean that they are in a happy and functional marriage. And I think that contributed to, you know, part of my rude awakening after we were married because I thought that marriage was all, you know,

rainbows and sunshine that things just worked out because you love the other person and you guys worked it out or you ignored it or whatever it was, whatever coping mechanism, you know, you used in your marriage, but you just kind of went along, you know, your merry way and you were happy. And so the work, the real work that is marriage that goes into a long-term partnership was a surprise for me, and it was a big adjustment for me. I also think that we don't really do ourselves culturally any favors when we make all these jokes about, I remember, you know, one of the things you were really concerned about

was you're like, well, you know, they say sex stops after marriage. And so, and you were really concerned about that. Like the night we got married, you were concerned that like, sex isn't going to stop, right? We're going to keep having sex, right? So now there's all this pressure. And I'm like, no, it's not going to stop, but you can stop asking me also. So I think people don't talk openly enough about the realities of marriage. There's lots of jokes.

They're very funny. And then all the other stuff nobody talks about. And so I think young people, even, you know, we were 30 when we got married, right? Like youngish people, when they go into a marriage for the first time, they don't understand. They don't know what's really up ahead. So what's interesting to me is, you know, you're mentioning the jokes and how we don't give ourselves any social favors or societal favors. And you're totally right. I think one of the things that's really hard is that jokes are born from truth.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? I think the specific, the Greek term for comedy, if I'm remembering this right, is called a little offense. So comedy is supposed to be a little bit offensive, meaning it's a little bit true. And you don't want that truth shoved up in your face. Like, it's kind of like when you make fun of somebody for being a little bit ugly,

or make fun of somebody to be a little bit fat, and like they know it's true, but it's still funny to everybody else, even though it's a little bit offensive. So all of the jokes about marriage really do come from a bit of truth. Sex transforms immediately after you're married. Absolutely. The frequency, the pressure, all of those things almost immediately like are changed because both partners feel like, oh, they love me for me. So now I don't have to like do the act of always being turned on, right?

So sex absolutely decreases right after marriage. and then it just continues to change throughout your entire like relationship. For some people, like it goes down and then it goes up and then sometimes age plays a factor. Some women get really turned on during their pregnancy. Some women don't want to have anything to human being during their pregnancy. Some men completely lose the ability to get erect when they're focused on work or when they're stressed out. Some men find stress to be something that causes erections. Like, it is insane how different people are, but you never talk about that before marriage.

Right. Right. Instead, we just sit there thinking that the jokes about sex and the jokes about sleep and the jokes about you're going to lose all your friends and the jokes about how like... You're going to get fat. Yeah. I have a Spaniard that I work with on set, great guy. And his favorite joke about his marriage day is his uncle went up to him and was like,

oh, congratulations. Now you're going to see what it's like to have to fuck when you don't want to. So, I mean, it's international, my love. Yeah. Like Europeans make the same types of jokes that we make here in the United States, even though, like, they're half a world away. Same thing is happening in Asia. Same thing is happening in Latin America.

Yeah, because really... Here's where I got really curious. Here's where I'm really curious about your kids. So the same study also looked at divorced couples. And what it found is that the first two years after divorce, happiness drops. The next four years, happiness increases. So a divorced person is the least happy within the first two years after their divorce. But then their happiness increases.

And then after year six, it plummets. So the happiness of that divorced person, six years after their first divorce takes a massive nose dive. And part of that is tied to the fact that second marriages don't often succeed. And then so there's a certain element of statistics in there. But then another part of it becomes how old they are on average at the time that six years post-divorce happens. So they basically have to deal with a midlife crisis at the same time as this six-year-year-mark post-divorce. Sometimes that also means they're going through a second divorce.

So the numbers skew negative. What's striking to me about that is that oftentimes when marriage gets difficult, culturally we are kind of conditioned instead of leaning into the commitment, we lean into the escape. Oh, we must have been wrong. It must not have worked. Like, we're not right for each other. So here, you get married at 27. You're married for four years. You come to the conclusion, it was the wrong decision. You get divorced at 31. You get remarried at 33. You start going through the hardships again at 39. And now you're in your midlife crisis. Right? Now you're in your 40s where everything starts getting really difficult. And on top of that, you're also dealing with the fact that I've tried getting married twice and both times it's been hard.

So it's fascinating to me because the choice to stand strong at 31 would have completely transformed how they feel about themselves at 39. And it's now like now the measurements are out there. The math is out there, right? But there's no way that you can. It's so hard to keep that in perspective when you're the one going through those dark years. Just like when you and I went through those dark years, perspective was super good. We didn't have perspective.

No. You didn't have perspective. I didn't have perspective. We weren't thinking about two years in the future. We were literally thinking about how the hell do we get through today? Yeah. How do I get through today with this person? Right.

How do I get through today with this depressed, negative, angry person? Right. That's how I felt about you. Yeah. I don't even know how you felt. How did you feel about me during those dark years? How did you feel? Were you like, how do I get through the day with this like?

ignorant, blind, stupid person? No. You know, what was so hard for me was I was, you know, I was so depressed and so I was so resentful of the decisions you were making. But at the same time, I was, I love you. Like in my heart, I was like, I love Andy so much, right? And I know that Andy's, all, every decision Andy's making is in the best interest of our family. I know that it is, right?

he's trying to make a better life for us. He's trying to support us. What it came down to is I was like, but I don't know if I can like suffer through these hardships with him, right? Like this isn't what I signed up for in the beginning, right? Like in the beginning, I signed up, I signed up to marry a man who worked for the government, who had previously also worked for the government, and we were going to have these kids together and he was going to be around all the time and we were going to work our, you know, nine to fives, Monday through Fridays, and put our kids in school and do the thing that everybody else is doing. And instead, you chose this entrepreneurial path and I chose to be home with the kids because I thought I would try my hand being a stay-at-home mom,

and that wasn't working out for me. And, you know, everything was different. Nothing was what I had expected it to be. And it was so hard that I thought, you know what, maybe I'm not the wrong. right wife for Andy and maybe out of love the thing that I should do for him is to step out so then I can be happy happier me makes for happier mom even if I'm not in the house and you can find himself a new wife that has more energy and it's more excited and more bubbly and whatever it is that he needs and you know and then everybody will be happy except probably the kids because we'll be divorced right like that was my my you know the thought process that I was going through was you know, I don't know how I'm going to push through these years because I don't know how to ask,

I don't know what change is to ask for, you know, and I think, you know, part of the years of working through it was me figuring out how to be honest with what I, how to be honest with myself and with you about what I actually needed and having the courage to pipe up and ask for it because I wasn't giving myself the space or the self-care that I needed to be happy. And I was too embarrassed to ask for it at the time. So through that process, you know, our marriage has become stronger. So yeah, it was never, it was never like, oh, Andy's a jerk I want to leave. It was like, I love Andy so much.

And I know he's doing the right thing. I just am struggling so much to deal with us. So maybe I'm not the right fit. always a thought. Maybe I'm just not the right fit here. But you persevered with me and you stood by my side that whole time and helped me. Like, I know you probably weren't feeling patient, but you definitely showed patience over time with me over a period of years coming to the point where, you know, I could be honest with both of us about what I really needed. And once my needs started to get met to, we were good.

I don't feel like I was that. I remember kicking you out of the house. That was such a, that was, I feel like that was, I had this memory of us when we lived in St. Petersburg, Florida, where you had just gone off the rails about something. I don't even remember what it was. And, and a lie was like a year, maybe a year and a half. And she was standing at the piano and like playing with the piano keys. And our son was running laps or something like that in a toy room because that's

just what he would do. Yeah. And you're having some kind of meltdown. And I'm like, you know what? Just go. Get out of the house. Just leave. We don't need you here.

We don't want you here. Get out. Your parents are down the street. You can get a hotel. I don't even care. Just leave. I remember that conversation. And then I remember you looking at me and being like, I'm not going to leave.

And it was so funny because in that one moment, I was like, well, shit. I see who has the power in this relationship. because I just tried to throw you out of the house and you just said no. After going through a whole diatribe about how you just wanted to leave. Yeah. How you're like, parenthood is too hard and marriage is too hard and I just want to be alone and I just want to be myself. And if I can be alone, I can be happy and then I'll be better at everything. Yeah.

And I was like, well, then get out. And you're like, no. You don't get to tell me to leave. You're not the boss of me. But, you know, I think that, you know, over the years, I've had a couple of, you know, thoughts that, you know, one is I think when you're thinking about long-term partnerships, you really have to think about human nature. And I, and, you know, like what you said, across the board, around the world, you know, long-term relationships,

marriages, oftentimes look the same, have the same ebbs and flows and problems and solutions, you know, no matter what country you live in. And so, and I think that is because we are humans, we are all humans, and there's a human nature at play. There's a psychology at play. You know, humans require certain things of each other. And if we could understand that better, then we would be able to understand how to make our partnership work better and be stronger. The other thoughts that I've been having over the last few years is I really think you have to think, I think you have to consider. what is marriage for because I'm definitely not a proponent of everybody getting married I'm not a

proponent of everybody having children I think you should do what's right for you I think you should do what's right in your relationship I think a partnership a marriage is a covenant between two people or more people if that's the kind of relationship that you want to be in but I think every party in the relationship needs to be honest about what that marriage is what that partnership is For me, if I knew that you wanted to be a dad, like 100%, it was very clear, you would always want it to be a husband and a father. I knew that if we didn't get married, I would never have children, right? For me, marriage was a precursor to having children, and that was a non-negotiable.

But for me, children wasn't a requirement either. So if you had said, you know, I don't really need to have kids or if you were on the fence, we could have spent the rest of our lives as domestic partners and never gotten married, and that would have been fine with me, right? So I think, you know, you have to think about what does, what is the purpose of marriage for you, right? Because it's a big commitment if you're actually going to legally get married, you know, and it should be, there should be reasoning behind it. It shouldn't be just because everybody talks about getting married. It shouldn't be because all your friends are getting married. It shouldn't be because that's what society expects of you.

you know you have to make your own decisions think about what this marriage mean and is that the commitment you want to be making right if less people arguably less people i mean logically if less people got married then less people would get divorced if you're getting married for the right reasons because you have thought about it and you have thought about the commitment and you have thought about the partnership and what the other human being and that partnership needs from you and what you need from them, in theory, you should be successful. So it's interesting because what you just said also makes sense to me logically, but the math doesn't prove out.

So the study actually showed that your specific statement right there, while logical and rational, if less people get married, there will be less divorce, is actually categorically wrong because here's what's happening by the numbers. Lots of people get married. but the marriages that prove to last are actually the marriages that are coming from couples that are older individuals who have formal education. There's a distinct correlation between the success of marriage and the happiness of marriage and the level of education and the age of the person.

So as you graduate from a four-year university, as you get, older than 25. And as you start to then layer on different sorts of accomplishments, right, your master's degree, your JD, if you're an attorney or your medical degree, as you layer on these additional levels of success and then get married, your success rate massively increases. And if you are beneath the age of 25, and if you do not then accomplish those, you know, various accomplishments, prior. to being married, like let's say you're married at 19 and then you go through college together, just as an example, your chances of successful marriage decrease. So what's really happening here

is that the amount of people who get married isn't the problem. It's essentially the level of maturity and the level of education that the two partners bring into the relationship, that becomes the problem. because when you and I met after we had both finished degrees, you had finished your master's degree, we had both been hired by CIA, we had both been operationally successful at CIA. We had a lot of accomplishments when we met. So each of those layers of accomplishment essentially filtered out people who were not going to be a good fit for us long term. And when you and I finally met and decided to get married, we had all sorts of similar values and all sorts of similar ambition and drive and zeal because we had accomplished so much before we ever got

married. So yes, we were 30 when we got married. We were 27 when we met, but we had a very similar string of accomplishments, which just showed that we had been through similar life and a similar set of experiences. Even though I was military and you were social work and everything else, I was normal and you were crazy. You like crazy, though. You've told me that. know this. But in contrast, in contrast, it's the people who are getting married at 21 and they haven't gone to college. And then at 26, someone chooses to go back to school. And then by the time they're 30, one person has a degree and one person doesn't. And now they're seeing the whole world differently. Yeah. Right. So much more than just the, like having children is something that both parents experience,

both partners experience at the same time. Whereas one person getting an advantage. degree while the other person stays in their, you know, bachelor's degree, or one person never went to college and just became an artist, and then the other person has finished a certification and then finished an associate's degree and then finished a master's degree or, you know, and up and up. As their education variance increases, so too does their impatience or inability to find happiness together. And when they can't find happiness together, it increases the odds of support. So to put numbers to it, when people have when people have been married over the age of 25 and they have masters or they have university level education at the same level that couple they see divorce rates drop down to just 6% wow so from a 50 50% of American couples get divorced from that metric to the fact that education and age combined even just basic you know undergrad graduate level education. All of a sudden, you decrease the odds to as low as 6%. That's a huge. It's a 44% increase in the success of your marriage just because you have a little bit of age

and a little bit of education on your side. But what they're finding is that the people who are pushing off marriage, guess who those people are? Your older educated people. Right. So now, just like you and I, there are educated, well-experienced 26-year-olds out there who are convinced that the institution of marriage is a death sentence. So they just, they commit to never getting married or never having children or always being single. They commit to that. And then as a result, the marriages that continue to happen are marriages that are actually happening at younger, less educated levels, which then feeds into more divorce. So the actual truth behind your statement, the truer version is less marriage will result in more

divorce because the people who are actually choosing not to get married are the very people who statistically should be getting married. That's so interesting. But I wonder, too, if back to a previous point that I made, you know, I wonder if part of that, you know, more experience, more education, you know, if what that translates to practically is a better ability to problem solve, right? Because that's a big part of marriage is, you know, a problem comes up. You have to solve it.

So if it's an increased ability to problem solve, that helps the marriage be successful. So in theory, if you provided a marriage education class or some kind of life education class early on that helped people understand human nature, understand problem solving, right? I mean, you don't have to go to a four-year college to learn how to be married, but what a four-year college does teach you how to do is problem-solve, find information, talk to other people, you know, expand your knowledge base. You're so cute. I find you so cute because you become so hyper-focused, so analytical, so quickly.

I think you can teach people. Well, the thing is, the thing is, like, I agree with you. I completely agree with you that there must, I'm sure that the ability to problem solve because of your research and your studies in university, I am sure that that helps a marriage. I am sure that that helps a marriage. Where my mind goes is if you've graduated from a four-year college, that means for four years, you have done some shit that you didn't really like. That's because of your background.

You've signed up for courses that were mandatory that you were not interested in that you still had to pass. Yeah. So you've gone through some months of just doing what has to be done just to check the box. So you're equating that to marriage. You're saying marriage is just years of doing what has to be done. Yes. I love it. And here's what's so awesome is that the study that can't.

came out last year confirms the same thing. It's two years of fun followed by four years of pain. Yeah. That's four years of doing what you don't have, what you don't want to do. Four years of hearing complaints from somebody that you don't want to hear complaints from. Four years of following a planner, even though you don't want to follow a planner. Four years of scheduling your vacations in advance, even though you don't want to schedule your vacations in advance. Four years of having sex in the morning when you don't want to have sex in the morning or having sex before bed when you don't want to have sex before bed. Like, that is marriage.

Marriage is doing things that you don't want to do for long periods of time simply because your partner, who you love dearly, needs those things. Yeah, it's a fair point. Yeah, and that's in many ways. When I read that, I was like, holy smokes. Like, yes, there's a certain level I'm certain that comes from, oh, they studied, you know, foreign affairs and you studied foreign affairs. and they studied science and you studied engineering.

I'm sure that all of the studies actually do matter as well. But the first thing that went through my mind is, oh, shit. Like, college is hard work. Your master's degree, night school while you're also carrying a day job, is hard work. So if two people get married and they've both gone through night school, they both know the pain of getting a master's degree while also working a full-time job, those people are going to be super solid, man. Yeah.

Those folks get it. It also explains why divorce fails at such a high rate for second marriages. Because one of the main things that both partners have in common is that when shit gets hard, I punch out. Yeah. Oh, it's really interesting. And I'm not disparaging divorce. I totally understand that divorce is a valid solution for many, many people. Yeah.

But when it comes to the math, you can start to see why that divorce unhappiness rate that lack of happiness in someone who's had a divorce, even if they've been remarried, it takes such a nosedive because they can't help but ask themselves, like, did I waste those years? Or what didn't I accomplish in the years that I was not accomplishing a successful marriage? Yeah.

And I just, I feel blessed my love because during our dark years, we were surrounded, I mean, during our darkest years, our highest paying clients were all divorced. one of the things that kept me at your side was when you sit when you work with a divorced client and you're working on business stuff or you're working on health stuff or fitness stuff or family

stuff when you work with a client who's divorced and wealthy it is amazing because the thing they reminisce on the most is their first partner their first husband their first wife is the person they talk about all the time and they don't talk about it disparagingly they talk about it like, oh, she always understood me or he always was patient with me or whatever else. Yeah. Even though they can afford anything in the world, even though they have a girlfriend that's 40 years younger than them, they still pine for the person that loved them before they were anything.

Mm-hmm. The person that loved them before their wealth, loved them before their fame, loved them before their success. But then it's almost like the success is what pulls them away. Yeah. And the success doesn't grow old with you, right? The success is just, it's a, it's not a relationship. Right.

But that build, that beard, that build period to get to that success is so, so hard. And we know because we're in it right now. It's true. It's true. So I thought that this was a fascinating study. I wanted to share it with you. Thank you. I'm going to send you all the links in a text message tonight because I don't get to have

pillow talk with you about it. So unfortunately, this is what it looks like when I travel. I get to read all this interesting stuff. And then I hit you with it unprepared when we're on camp. Yeah, that's fine. I'm getting used to it now. So one thing that we did get to talk about that I'm excited to share with everybody else who's listening is that you and I are going to host a very special running of our spy for a day training, something that we call streetcraft. We are creating a streetcraft event that is specific to couples and to individuals who are married.

who understand the idea of marriage, they want to be married, they are currently married, or they are in a relationship that they're hoping will end up in marriage. So a couple's specific streetcraft, we are limiting it to only 12 couples. And those 12 couples will get a chance to train not just with me, but also with you. Because we will be hosting that streetcraft as a couple. Right, which anybody. So I'm super excited. You haven't told anybody about this yet.

Yeah. And anybody who has attended a previous streetcraft knows that usually it's Andy and they might get to meet me during a bump. But during this streetcraft, we'll actually be together as a couple, which is great because we haven't been together physically in like a month. It's true. I will literally arrive from South Florida the day that we meet everybody. And I will be leaving on a plane to go to California. the night of the operation. It's going to be a lot of energy in that room. You and I will spend less than 24 hours together. But I will get one night with you before I have to get on that plane.

Woo-woo. So if you're listening to the podcast now, folks, if you're listening to this conversation right now, nobody else knows that we're hosting this streetcraft event. Nobody has been told yet. So you are literally the first ones to know. And we wanted to share it that way. We wanted you to be the first ones to know because if you just listen to us talk about our marriage for the last 30 minutes, then there's a good chance that you are in a similar situation to us.

You understand our feelings. You understand our pain. You understand what we've been through. And you want to avoid the pain and find your way to that happiness that we talked about as quickly as possible. And that's what this streetcraft is all about. So go ahead and click on the description. Click on the link in the description below. The first link that you see there is going to be a link that takes you directly to. a registration page where you can sign up with your partner or alone to come to our private streetcraft event. It is happening in February. It is coming up very quickly. All the details are right there. Just click on the link in the description below to go and register yourself immediately. In addition to registering for the one-day streetcraft, Ghee and I are also opening a very exclusive VIP dinner with just Ghi and I in our home the night before the streetcraft event. And we will allow four couples to join us in that event. Only four. So the first four to sign up for that private VIP dinner, we'll get a chance to sit with Ghi and I for a three-hour tailored private chef dinner

in our home, and we will open the gates to anything you want to talk about. There's all sorts of things that Ghi and I don't have the courage to talk about on the podcast because we don't think anybody really wants to hear about our kinky sex life. And we don't think anybody really wants to hear about our nerdy book club that we have. But if you are one of those people that does want to dig into those nitty gritty details about how we make our marriage work as former spies, as current parents, as current business owners, you'll get a chance to have that conversation with us at dinner with three other couples that are just as committed and just as interested and just as focused on their happiness as you are. So make sure you sign up for that VIP dinner when you

register for Streetcraft and we'll be there. Jehe, what are your thoughts? What are you excited about for having, I mean, we're opening up our life. Like we've never opened our life. up before and we're doing it at one of our favorite spy events. How does that make you feel? Yeah, I'm really excited for this spy event. I'm really excited for this streetcraft because normally streetcraft are individuals that come together and they get randomly teamed up and then they have to complete this mission over the course of the day. But this, because it's couples, you come with your partner. And what we've seen in the past with the few couples that have attended streetcraft together is it really builds this strong bond between the couple when they have to accomplish a mission

together. They're learning, they're like being fire host information at the same time, and they have to implement that information right away to accomplish the mission. And we've seen the impact that has on the two people and the couple is so strong. And it really creates this bond for them that no other experience could create for them. And then if you're able to join us the night before the streetcraft, then, you know, we can, you know, not only open up about ourselves, but we can help you prepare for that next day. So the next day, you know, you have, you know, even additional tools as a couple, you know, to be able to implement, you know, on the day of streetcraft to get your mission completed. But it's a really fun day. It's a really bonding

experience. And I encourage, you know, anybody who's interested, you know, bring, you know, bring their partner. It's a great Valentine's Day gift. Yeah, click on the link below, take a look at the details. Even if you are not part of a couple or even if you are part of a couple where the other person doesn't want to participate, because when Ji and I went through marriage counseling, we had multiple times where the other person didn't want to participate. But if you are in one of those situations, come alone. We are offering a special price for anybody who wants to come alone because we understand

that sometimes you are at a place in your relationship where your partner, doesn't really want to participate. But that's okay, because if you're the one that's committed to the long-term relationship, if you're the one that's committed to finding success, this street craft is all about giving you the tools and the experience, the knowledge and the peer group to help you have that courage to persevere through the darkest, hardest parts that you might be in during your relationship to. We are not here to pass judgment or to make you feel good or bad about yourself. This is not going to be an Instagram reunion where it's the highlight reel of everybody's life. This is going to be a very real, let's talk about the truth of the joy and the

pain of being a couple in a way that we don't ever get to talk about in our normal lives. Because everybody else wants to walk around saying that marriage is so great. Marriage is so easy. Marriage is something that you have to do. A marriage is ordained by God. Like people talk about being a couple like it's the easiest thing in the world. Being a couple is one of the the hardest things I have ever done, my love. And I am just, I thank heavens every day that you are the person who I am in a marriage with. Me too. I agree with you. So folks, thank you very much. As always, if you like the conversation, leave a comment below, share us with a friend, give us a subscription, give us a thumbs up. Let us know that you enjoyed what we have to share. And if this was

meaningful to you, there's a really good chance that the conversation we just had is going to be meaningful to somebody else. So please share us with somebody in your family, in your friend network. Share us with somebody else where we get a chance to help feed and contribute something new and a new idea or maybe even just some comfort to them. So share us, like us, subscribe, and of course click the link in the description and sign up to come be part of our streetcraft. I have zero doubt this streetcraft is going to sell out and it's going to sell out quickly because nobody has ever had access to Ghi and I at the same time in the same place for multiple. hours, let alone been able to come out and actually learn how to do their streetcraft spy for a day

event with both of us at the same time. So if you're on the fence, I encourage you to just jump in, make the commitment, make the payment, reserve your spot because you can always cancel later. But if you don't buy it now, somebody else will buy it before you do. And I wanted to make sure that every one of our listeners to this podcast knew that because we care the most about the people who understand our relationship because they view us on the podcast. There are lots of other people out there in the world, but we really do have a dear special place in our heart for you because you've been with us on this podcast journey and we love sharing our life with you. Thanks very much. We'll see you next time and I hope to see you at Streetcraft.