Fantasy Baseball Today - 2024 Catcher Recap! Top Performers & Early 2025 Rankings! (10/17 Fantasy Baseball Podcast)

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

Who were the top-10 catchers in ADP entering this past season (2:33)? ... William Contreras has finished as the top catcher two years in a row (4:17). ... Cal Raleigh just posted career-highs in home runs and RBI (7:55). ... Salvador Perez continues to get it done (10:19). ... Yainer Diaz could take another step forward (18:44). ... Will Smith has been consistent (20:34). ... Shea Langeliers continues to improve (24:24). ... Adley Rutschman's season seems like it was derailed by a hand injury (27:50). ... Tyler Stephenson has been rock solid (31:39). ... Connor Wong just had his best season (33:02). ... Logan O'Hoppe tailed off in the second half (35:09). ... What's the latest in the playoffs and other news (39:23)? ... Let's take an early look at the top six catchers heading into 2025 (46:42). ... Who are the top-12 catchers for next season (52:40)? Fantasy Baseball Today is available for free on the Audacy app as well as Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever else you listen to podcasts.  Subscribe to our YouTube channel: youtube.com/FantasyBaseballToday Download and Follow Fantasy Baseball Today on Spotify: https://sptfy.com/QiKv Get awesome Fantasy Baseball Today merch here: http://bit.ly/3y8dUqi Follow FBT on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@fbtpod?_t=8WyMkPdKOJ1&_r=1 Follow our FBT team on Twitter: @FBTPod, @CTowersCBS, @CBSScottWhite, @Roto_Frank Join our Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/fantasybaseballtoday Sign up for the FBT Newsletter at https://www.cbssports.com/newsletters/fantasy-baseball-today/ For more fantasy baseball coverage from CBS Sports, visit https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/baseball/ To hear more from the CBS Sports Podcast Network, visit https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/ You can listen to Fantasy Baseball Today on your smart speakers! Simply say "Alexa, play the latest episode of the Fantasy Baseball Today podcast" or "Hey Google, play the latest episode of the Fantasy Baseball Today podcast." To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Fantasy Baseball Today podcast from CBS Sports. And first pitch, rushing. Got a fantasy question? Email Fantasy Baseball at CBSI.com. Get ready to win your league. Well, fantasy. Now here's Frank, Scott, and Chris. It's time for position recaps and way too early rankings.

Welcome in to Fantasy Baseball today on Thursday, October 17th. I am Frank Sample, joined by Scott White. and Chris Towers. Today on the show, no surprise, we are starting with catchers. We'll take a look back at the top 10 catchers from this past season and then compare Scott and Chris's way too early top 12 rankings for the position heading into 2025.

Any differences, of course, we'll be up for debate and we'll have these guys duke it out. But let's start with a quick look at catcher ADP entering this season. Get a quick thought there and then we'll move into the actual players. Top 10 catchers and ADP were, were Adley Ruchman, J.T. Real Muto, Will Smith, William Contreras,

Yiner Diaz, Salvador Perez, Cal Raleigh, Sean Murphy, Wilson Contreras, and Francisco Alvarez. How many actually finished top 10 by season's end? Six of those names. So that actually feels pretty good, at least accuracy-wise, on the top 10. Real Muto finished just outside of it. Wilson Contreras was good when he played, but, you know, dealt with some unfortunate fracture injuries throughout the season. And then obviously, Sean Murphy and Francisco Alvarez were just,

bad misses this past year. Scott, what's one word you would use to describe the catcher position this past season? Underwhelming, it seemed like there was a lot of talent emerging at that position and a lot of it didn't live up to expectations. A lot of the established guys at the position had long stretches of uselessness in the second half especially. If there's a few guys, I'm sure we'll discuss. I don't want to reveal the names just yet. But yeah, They didn't live up to expectation. And then there's William Contreras, who was just an out-and-out stud. One of the biggest, clearest number one finishers at any position was he, was him.

He was he, yeah. And he? Yeah. No? Yeah. I'm doubting myself. But anyway, linking verb, so it's not an object of the... Anyway.

Yeah. William Contreras was great. Yes, he certainly was, and that's a good segue here into our top 10 catchers from this past season, and this is based on Roto Category Leagues, and if they finished higher or lower in a Head to Head Points League, I will mention that. William Contreras, the number one catcher in both formats. It wasn't really close. He outscored the second best catcher by 74 fantasy points on CBS this past season, and he has now finished as the top catcher, William Contreras, in Roto.

Two years in a row. He's been top two in head-ted points each of those years. Set career highs across the board. Hit 281, 23 homers, 99 runs, 92 RBI, nine steals, and an 831 OPS. He'll be 27 on opening day. Looks like he's in his prime. And Chris, I still think that there could be this massive power season

if he can lower the launch angle and bring the ground ball right down. But even if not, he's still the number one catcher. Yeah, I mean, he is established enough and good enough that I don't really think there's like much to be gained from trying to eke out a new edge for him. You know, like he's as established as you can hope for a catcher to be. Like the thing I wrote when I wrote about my state of the catcher position is catchers tend to take longer to develop and they have shorter peaks. So like we're three years into the peak for William Contreras. that's about as established as you're ever going to get for a catcher.

Like he is 26 years old. He's probably not going to fall off anytime soon. But the way the position works, you never know. But yeah, I think he is the no question number one player. I know that wasn't the case coming into the season. I think he's clearly established himself as the top guy. And maybe there's more power upside. I mean, we saw it in 2022 when he had 20,

homers in 376 plate appearances. The fact that he's averaged 20 homers in well over 600 the past two seasons, I suppose counts as a slight disappointment, but you've got such an edge in playing time with him relative to the rest of the position. You've got great plate discipline. You've got good power. Sneaky speed. Yeah.

He'll steal a handful of bases. Like it's the clearest edge I think you can get at any position is. William Contreras because, I mean, we'll get to it. I guess we won't get to the top. We won't get to the top 12, right? So I'll just throw this stat out there to highlight the state of the catch. David Frye was the number 12 catcher in Roto leagues this season. He was also eligible with first base.

So we have a clear cop there. He was the number 36 first baseman in 2024. That's catcher. Yeah. Big, like William Contreras would, he was not first base eligible, right? I'm trying to remember which catchers were. I don't think he wasn't. I don't think so, no.

I imagine he would have been like a top six or seven first baseman. Well, I can tell you in points leagues exactly where he would have finished. Second behind just Vladimir Guerrero. That's actually. Wow. Stunning. It is. I couldn't believe it as I said it.

You get a catcher with 92 RBI and 99 runs. Like that's that itself. Yeah, he was the number 27 overall player. He would have been the number two first baseman in Roto as well. Just ahead of Bryce Harper and like he had five more RBI than Bryce Harper. Yeah. Those counting stats were bonkers. And yeah, he chipped in nine steals this past season.

You know, 831 OPS is great season all around. Great two years in a row all around for William Contreras. The number two catcher was Cal Raleigh who finished one spot. lower and head-to-head total points. So he was third in that format, likely because he does still strike out quite a bit. But he has finished as a top five catcher two years in a row now, posted career highs with 34 home runs and 100 RBI. It's backed by an elite 15.4% barrel rate, by far the most among catchers.

Scott, I feel with Cal Raleigh, you know what you're getting. It's elite power at the position. The improved plate discipline has helped him in head-to-head points league. He still does strikeout quite a bit, but it feels like you know what you're getting with Cal Raleigh. Yeah, I would agree. And it makes for kind of a challenging rank in both formats. And head-to-head points,

because of all the strikeouts, but also in Roto because you know it's going to be, he's going to be a drain on batting average. But you know he's going to be a big positive in home runs and in the counting stats. He had 100 RBI. this year. Like he plays a lot

and that is a big differentiator at catcher. The biggest reason why all these players who are multi-eligible you're always going to play them at catcher is because there are so few catchers

who play regularly enough to hold their own at other positions. Cal Raleigh is one who could because of how much he plays. If you have a catcher that you might even consider starting at another position,

you have a pretty big edge because there's only like six of them, right? I think it's six that you might consider playing at a different position. Yeah. So I actually, spoiler alert, I rank Cal Raleigh six for next year. Same. And it's, yeah, it's that group of six where they play regularly. And with one exception, one doesn't play as regularly as the others.

But Cal Raleigh is one who does, obviously. Yeah. And it's not like he gets a ton of games at DH, but 15 plus games at DH, each, each of the past two seasons for Cal Raleigh. That helps. That helps a lot at the position. Like a 12% ed boost in playing time. Yeah, he is over the past two seasons,

fourth at the position with nearly 1,200 plate appearances over the past two seasons. So yeah, it's a pretty good volume play there for Cal Raleigh as well. Salvador Perez just finished as the third catcher, and he actually finished one spot higher ahead of Raleigh in a head-to-head points league, mostly due to even more played appearances because Salvador Perez is an Ironman,

and the Royals will just always find ways to get him in the lineup, whether it's playing catcher, this past season, tons of games at DH, more games at first base than ever before as well. So the Royals just really value Salvador Perez and find ways to get him in the lineup. He's getting up there in age.

He will turn 35 years old next May, but still an elite producer at the position, 27 home runs, 104 RBI, 786 OPS, all his best since that massive 2021 season. One thing that did stand out to me, Chris, is that he had a massive April, and then he was just kind of fine after that. So April 355 with a 1013 OPS from May on, 253 with a 736 OPS, I think for me that probably feels closer to the expectation for Salvador Prez. Yeah, I mean, it's tough because he actually underperformed his expected stats by quite a bit.

335 Woba 362X Wobo top 10% in all of baseball, not just among catchers. The problem is he also underperformed by a significant amount in 2023, actually underperformed by a decent amount in 2021 as well, not quite as big, but 12 points there. So three out of the last four years, a pretty significant underperformance. There might be something there with Salvador Perez that he just doesn't quite play up to his skill set. Maybe it's the amount of time he's playing. Maybe it's a big outfield, even though Kauffman Stadium is generally a decent place to hit. It is still a very large place to hit. And obviously, Salvador Perez is not going to beat out any infield singles at this point in his career.

So, yeah, I think he is someone who I probably rank a little lower. than the surface level numbers. I don't think I would expect 104 RBI again. I don't really expect the bottom to fall out here. But you have to account for the risk. The role didn't change. The Royal's lineup got a lot better. And maybe that was a fluke.

But they do have other hitters in their lineup beyond Salvador Perez. that I think is going to keep them on a positive trajectory. I don't know that they're going to be, like, I don't know that they're going to make the playoffs again next year, but I think they're a solid mid-range team. And I still expect like 90 RBI. I think like 25 homers,

90 RBI, probably more like a 250 average. Well, the numbers Frank gave, the numbers Frank gave from May on were basically his numbers the previous two years. Yeah. he was still a highly regarded catcher.

So he had that huge April. Maybe it'll be a different month that's huge for him next year. He is 35 and that is beating the odds for a catcher. But I'm not sure we should think of him as a catcher anymore. His backup, Freddie Fermin, is one of the finalists for A.L. Gold Glove. And Salvador Perez, early in his career, he was thought of as a good defensive catcher, but he's not thought of that as thought of as that anymore. and they probably just need to transition them to primarily first base D.H, which wouldn't hurt his fantasy value and probably adds to his longevity.

So I think I was kind of down on Salvador Perez coming into this year, but I am back on board with him. I think he is the riskiest of that group of six catchers. I think Will Smith probably also as well. One thing I do want to point out because we kind of skimped over it. You know, Scott, you mentioned early on there were a lot of catchers who really struggled on the second half especially. And one thing I saw, I don't know if you guys have noticed, but catchers have just been unplayable offensively in the postseason. As a whole catchers this postseason have a 206 Wobah and a 31 weighted runs created plus. That's not quite pitcher bad. But that is worse than the worst hitter in baseball bad.

And Matthew Trueblood on Twitter pointed out that 18 catchers had at least 78 stolen base attempts against them this season. That was the most that any catcher had in 2022. So it might just be that the new paradigm in baseball of players running more than they have ever, I think ever, right? like 1914 or 1904 was the might just be making catching a lot more difficult and that's not a great thing and I think that will change if you're looking medium term because I think we all expect an automatic ball strike or challenge system to be in play and that will change the way the position is approached there will be less of a focus on framing and defensive ability in general but that is one thing that I'm considering is that it's just playing catcher might be even more difficult now than it always has been, which might make the bar offensively even lower.

It's a theory anyway. No, I think it's an interesting theory. And if you have to attend to throw out that many base runners throughout the course of the season, we already know it's a grueling position. I mean, it just makes it that more likely that a catcher could just wear down as the season goes on. So yeah, I do think that's an interesting theory. of the ABS system. I see that they're testing it out in some of the ballparks in the Arizona Fall League. I saw a video

the other day of Tamar Johnson, mid at bat, gets a ball called on him just outside the strike zone. He challenges it. You just tap on your helmet, right? That's how it works. It takes like five seconds. They show where the ball lands up on the big screen. Kind of like if you're just watching it in like a game day app or like on

the MLB app shows where the ball lands and automatically either it's a ball or a strike. I think the challenge. I think the challenge. system is way better than an automatic system. Yeah. I agree. The challenge system looks really cool. So hopefully coming to baseball soon, but yeah, so far I like

what we've seen there. Let's take our first break before we do that. Reminder, you can always listen to FBT and our 5 minute podcast, Fantasy Baseball Today and 5 on Spotify. If you're watching on YouTube, scan the QR code on the screen now, and that will take you right to the FBT Spotify feed. Let's take our first break. When we return, we'll continue on

with our catcher recap. We'll do that right after this. Welcome back in. Continuing on with our catcher recap from this past season, again, the top three were William Contreras, Cal Raleigh, and Salvador Perez. The number four catcher in Roto Leagues was Yiner Diaz. He actually finished fourth in both format, head-to-head points as well. He got off to an awful start and then picked things up dramatically in June. And the overall numbers finished quite well. 299 with 16 home runs, 70 run scored, and 84 RBI. Scott's something that stood out to me with Yiner Diaz. The ground ball rate jumped all. all the way up to 51% this past season.

And I think if that number gets back to 2023 levels, Yainer Diaz can flirt with being the top catcher in fantasy. 300 batting average, 25 plus home runs. I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility. Yeah, particularly in a five-by-five context, I think the lack of walks. He's one of the worst walkers is going to prevent that from being the case in points leagues. But Yainer Diaz is really good.

He's one of that top six. He and Cal Raleigh are kind of yin and yang in terms of what they bring to the table because Cal Raleigh's the preeminent home run hitter at the position. And Yainer Diaz, the preeminent batting average source at the position. His expected batting average was 96th percentile, 300 batting average. Really hard for a catcher to do that. But Yinder Diaz has great contact skills. It was evident in the minors. It's become routine for him in the majors, too.

He did go from 23 homers to 16 and much fewer at bats. To your point, Frank, it seems like a suboptimal launch angle this year, but we've seen him do better with that. And I think given his youth, he's only 26. It's a little older than I thought, but he's still kind of right there in his prime. And the fact that we've seen him hit more homeruns before, I think there's a pretty good chance. Giannius Diaz continues to improve. The number of five catcher this past season was Will Smith.

He finished one spot lower in total heads head points, and he has finished as a top five catcher in Roto. Four years in a row now, dependable. Kind of is what he is. You know what you're going to get with Will Smith. 250 to 260 batting average, 20 home runs, 75 runs, 75 RBI. He plays a lot, but he's not the volume play that he used to be, or compared to other names at the top of this position

just because he will never DH because Sohei Otani is on his team. So Chris, I think you know what you're going to get and it's a fine catcher, but it kind of feels like maybe the upside is capped here with Will Smith. Yeah, I think the thing that I can't figure out with Will Smith, I guess, is remember he signed

that massive contract extension. Was it last off season, nine year, a 10-year contract extension, I think? years for a catcher. He's still got nine years left on that contract. There's a ton of deferrals. It's nine years, 123 million.

It's hardly onerous, but, you know, that does probably make me think that they're going to be pretty careful with his playing time as he gets into his 30s. He turns 30 right before the season.

I think the chances of Will Smith ever getting back to like 580 played appearances like he had in 2022 are pretty slim. there are some signs of decline over the last couple of seasons. The strikeout rate last year in 2024. Worst it had been since 2021. Quality of contact.

Not quite as good as it's been at its peak. So it all kind of feels like Will Smith is just pretty good now. He's not necessarily like this huge standout at the position. And he's going to be 30. So I think in 20, there were seven catchers who had 400 played appearances past the age of 30. Only three of them did that in 2024. So that's the risk at catcher is just the wear and tear catches up really quick.

I think Will Smith is perfectly fine to draft in 2025. I can't say he's going to be a priority target for me. No, not for me either. And I was worried about the playing time being an issue with the sign. of Shohei Otani, and it was. But even then, I think maybe I undersold how much of an issue it would be. And part of me ranking him as high as I do for next year, fourth, I'm kind of rethinking it, like, as we're talking through this,

because he has the playing time. He doesn't have the playing time advantage, I should say, that Cal Raleigh and Yiner D has two players who I rank behind him do. and he will smith was one of the ones i was referring to earlier who over the course of the season his numbers were pretty awful so you mentioned frank salvador perez's huge april it's even worse for will smith his batting average from may on was 216 and i don't see a lot of underlying reasons for it like he hit the ball just as hard his strikeout rate was about the same uh so i i'm inclined to dismiss it Who knows? Maybe he had something physical going on, catchers a physically demanding position.

But that's a long time to hit 216 for a player who we consider one of the best at his position. Yeah. Five months, 216. I tried to read up and see if I could find an injury or something little. Maybe he was nicked up. I couldn't really find anything on Will Smith. If there are any Dodgers fans out there listening that, you know, they noticed something throughout the course of the season, feel free to let us know. But, yeah, there is nothing that really stood out to me for Will Smith.

Smith either. The number six catch of this past season was Shea Langalears. He was two spots lower in total heads head points, likely because of all of his strikeouts, but continues to make big improvements in plate discipline. He hits the ball decently hard, and to be honest, Langalears kind just feels like 80% Cal Raleigh, right? Which is not a slight by any means. 224 batting average, 29 home runs, 80 RBI, and maybe he'll get even better because his career numbers on the road are much better than they are at home in Oakland Coliseum, and we know that Langalears will be playing somewhere next season, I believe in Sacramento, in a minor league ballpark.

So, Scott, maybe there's a chance that Cheal Langaleers gets even better. Yeah, there's definitely a chance. He is, I made the same comparison to Cal Raleigh when I was putting together my top 20 catchers for 2025 article. But there are a couple distinctions here. One is that he's not nearly the caliber. of defender that Cal Raleigh is. So while he's getting at bats as frequently right now, that could change.

Like there isn't as much incentive for the athletics to keep Langaleers in the lineup as there is for the Mariners to keep Raleigh in the lineup. And the other is that he's done it one year, basically. And so we don't have the repeat viewings to trust that this performance is something he can sustain from year to year. but it is pretty similar in terms of 5 by 5 production, what you're going to get, a bad batting average probably with a lot of home runs.

And that's at this position, that's going to go pretty high. It does feel like a pretty classically flimsy skill set for a catcher. Like you'll see these kind of seasons pop up now and then from catchers who aren't, you know, the established stars. where they just kind of run hot on home runs. The rest of the skill set is pretty middling. And I definitely need to see it again from Shay Langaleers before I take it at face value. That being said, I'm not burying him in my rankings.

It just, like, he's seven. Yeah, it just, he's a lower. It feels like there might be two tiers. Yeah. Well, there's not many, there's not many catchers that can go in. that tier in between. Oh, no, that's what I'm, I don't think there's any. I'm, I'm, there might just be.

It's that big of a drop off. And a hundred pick difference. Yeah. Between where I'm willing to take Cowrally and where I'm willing to take Shay Langaleers. Just so people understand what we're saying, he had 29 home runs this year. It was 22 last year. So like he, he can hit home runs.

It's just is, does he bring enough else to the table that he's going to get 534 plate appearances again? to hit 29 as opposed to 20. Yeah, I guess the only defense I would have is that he has showed signs of improving, right, in the plate discipline, and he hits the ball hard. Like, there's no doubt about it. 91.3 average exit velocity, 12.8% barrel rate ranked in the 87th percentile.

So I think he actually does some pretty good things there, Langalears. Obviously, you know, could be better as a defender, as you mentioned, Scott. But just as a pure power bat, I think he's pretty legit. So we are 25 minutes in. How have we not talked about Adley Ruchman yet? Well, that's because he finished 7th at the position, two spots higher in total heads head points due to plate discipline and just the volume of playing time,

down season, but it feels directly related to a hand injury that he suffered on June 27th. So through that date, the first three months, basically, Adley Ruchman is batting 300 with 15 homers and an 830 OPS. from June 28th on, he hit 189 with four homers and a 559 OPS. Chris, I mean, it is just one of the more obvious distinctions, I think, from this past season. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the fact that he kept playing through it when he probably should have taken some time off,

I think speaks well to his toughness and also speaks to maybe the need to hold him back a little bit. That's one of the things about player health is sometimes you have to protect a player from themselves. And Adley Rutchman's case, he was just bad for the final three months of the season. You said the overall numbers, right? From that, 559 OPS, 189 batting average, almost no power. You're going to see it in the underlying numbers as well. They were the worst of his career by far. I think you mostly write it off.

and I think you still rank Adley Rutchman as the clear number two catcher. I think there's probably a tier drop between him and whoever number three is and I'll take any discount that's available for him. Because he was the biggest bust at the position.

He was drafted two rounds ahead of any other catcher on average in 2024. That won't happen again. He probably doesn't need to be that much lower. than William Contreras. I don't think we need to overreact and suddenly put William Contreras in the fourth round and Adley Ruchman in the seventh or something.

I think that's the only situation where I draft Rushman though, personally. Like, I want the discount. Because I'm, we all, I guess, are pinning a lot to this hand injury that what cost him a game, not even that. And because it coincides with the drop-off, almost perfectly. I'm inclined to think that's what happened,

but there's not a lot, it's not like we can prove it. Sure. If there's something else going on there, then it's going to be a waste of pick, as bad as he was in the second half. And I'll note, the average exit velocity for him

has always been pretty underwhelming. And he produced in spite of it. He had huge pedigree, so I was kind of just like, whatever. Ex-velocity, stupid. Adley Rushman is good. I'm not going to dig too deep into it. But then these last three months happen and it's like, well, is there something there that I missed?

Or is it just he took a foul tip off his hand in late June? I'm hoping it's the latter. I'm ranking him like it's the latter. But I don't, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be the, like, reaching for him to make sure I get him. Sure. If we get to the end of this year and the consensus is Adley Rutchman is Yiner Diaz with plate discipline, I wouldn't be shocked. And like that's not a knock on him.

Yonder Diaz is a good player. But, you know, the underlying tools in 2023 look very similar to Yiner Diaz with, you know, a 13% walk rate instead of a 3% walk rate. The number eight catcher was Tyler Stevenson. He was one spot higher in total head to head points. A strong season posted career. highs in home runs, runs in RBI. He hit 258, 19 homers, 69 runs, 66 RBI.

And he overperformed his expected stats quite a bit. So I do think there could be a slight step back coming for Tyler Stevenson. He also has one of the best ballparks in baseball. So perhaps that kind of helps cancel out some of that overperformance according to Stackast. But Scott Tyler Stevenson, he just feels solid. If I was projecting, I would say he's probably more like a two, 50 hitting 15 to 17 home run guy, which is fine, but not like a standout at the position. Yeah, Tyler Stevenson is a top 12 catcher for me next year by default.

I don't think he's actually that good, but there's a lot worse out there that you could get a lot worse at this position. So there are a couple of upside types that I rank ahead of him that I would be inclined to take, particularly in like a one catcher scenario where you could always fall back on mediocrity on the waiver wire. I don't think Tyler Stevenson is that much ahead of mediocrity, I guess. The number nine catcher was Connor Wong. He was one spot lower in head-to-head points,

and he had himself a strong season. He upped his batting average from 2.35 in 2023, all the way up to 280 this past season. It's a unique skill set in that he has provided it exactly eight steals two years in a row. So you don't have many catchers that provide steals, but he also overperformed his expected stats by a ton. And moving forward, the Red Sox have a top catcher prospect in Kyle Teal, who got all the way up to AAA by the end of the minor league season. So I think there's a good chance that we do see him in in 2025 and probably put

the damper here on Connor Wong, Chris. I think Connor Wong is like the biggest fraud at the catcher position. I have, I will probably rank him as a number two catcher for 2025. It's going to be real low, though. Like, look, the Red Sox like him. He started six games at first base last year, seven at D.H. He started a game at second base. He played the outfield in one game. Like, they really did not want to take Connor Wong out of the lineup. And I don't get it. He's not a good defender. I know he ran hot this year as a hitter, but even that fell apart in the second half. He had a 696 OPS. He hit 246 after the All-Star break. I think he got exposed there. I don't expect Kyle Teal to start the season on the Red Sox roster. I think if he has a good

April, Connor Wong has a bad one. He could, Connor Wong could just be buried. So Wong is 19th for me. and the two behind him are Alejandro Kirk and Bo Naler. So not exactly. I'd rather take the chance on either of those guys figuring it out. Yeah, that's fine. But my point is, like, I don't think many people out there listening

hold Alejandro Kirk and Bo Nailer in high regard. So that's as high as I could put Connor Wong, was my point. Yeah. And the number 10 catcher from this past season was Logan O'Hoppy, who just feels like he's going to be. on my breakout list again in 2025. He had a solid season. He hit 244 with 20 home runs,

which is obviously serviceable at the position. But it still feels like there's another level that he can get to. He underperformed his expected slug by 61 points this season. That was the third biggest disparity among catchers. Obviously, the Angels aren't playing for much, so I think they're just going to throw Logan O'Hoppy

out there as often as they possibly can. And Scott, something interesting with O'Hoppy's skill set is that he walked so much in the minors. I'm still waiting to see that in the majors. We haven't seen it, so maybe it's just not going to be part of his skill set at the major league level. But he walked a lot in the minor, so maybe there's a chance. Yeah, that is weird. I thought that would be a bigger part of his game.

There's still a lot to like about Logan O'Hoppy. He is similar to Will Smith and Adley Rushman, and that he just collapsed down the stretch. And I wish I could find, like with Rushman, some kind of report about an injury he suffered at some point mid-season that would explain the numbers cratering. Because as late as August 1st, Logan O'Hoppe was hitting 280 with an 804 OPS. Yeah. Great. Like, he's one of the best at the position.

But he ended up hitting just 244 with the 712 OPS. And in the span of two months, his numbers dropped that much. So I think the upside here is pretty high. I think, look, if the season ended on August 1st, I'd probably consider it a top seven and have them right behind Cal Raleigh there, if not between Yiner Diaz and Cal Rale. But obviously, that's not where the season ended,

and the way O'Hopi closed it out left me with some doubts. But I do think I have, I guess we'll get into rankings in a minute. I do have them right behind Shea Langelears, because I think in terms of what they bring to the table, those two are pretty similar. It's just that Langaleers did it in 2024. And O'Hopi did it. Yeah.

And I think that makes sense. And again, I just think I'm going to be pretty excited to draft Logan O'Hoppy. Because at least as of now, maybe I'll be wrong about this. It feels like he's going to come at a bit of a discount compared to some of those other names that we talked about. Obviously not Connor Wong, but, you know, like that top seven group. I think that O'Hopi will go a little bit behind that group. Let's take our final break, and when we return, we'll hit some playoff updates, some news and notes,

and some 2025 rankings. We'll do that right after this. Welcome back in some playoff updates. The Dodgers, as of recording this on Wednesday night, they're up two to one in the NLCS. The Yankees are up to Zip. In the ALCS, I was actually at game two between the Yankees and Guardians. To my surprise, Luke Weaver actually walks out of,

of the bullpen to Dream Weaver, and I'm pretty sure they stole that from Adam Azer. It's been nine years in the making, as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is running that at Yankee Stadium is a fan of the show. A long time at the show. I can only assume, because there's no way anyone else would make that association with Luke Weaver's name. Not a chance. No, it's impossible. I actually, I tweeted at Adam Azer.

I kind of, you know, I put him on blast. He's on notice that we are waiting for this sound drop to come in. So there's nothing else I could do. Anyone who listens tweet at him every single day until he sends us the sound drop of him singing Luke Weaver to Dreamweaver, because obviously we need it at this point. I mean, that's what they actually should play in Yankee Stadium. Adam Azer. Yeah.

The most famous Yankee Stadium. fan in the world. Once we get it, I will tweet it at the Yankees account, which I'm sure they will respond and then they will use it from then forward. They better. They absolutely should. We got a bunch of Rangers news that came out in the past week or so. Adolis Garcia will rehab for the next eight weeks after being diagnosed with a sprained left patella tendon in his knee. He battled knee soreness over the final few weeks of the regular season. He obviously was pretty bad long before that this year. Evan Carter underwent an ablation procedure on his back. last week. The procedure removed some tissue that had been affecting his recovery from a lower back stress reaction. The hope is that Evan Carter will have a normal offseason and be 100% by spring training and Josh Young under tendon release surgery on his right wrist last week. The hope is that he'll be able to have a normal offseason after three to four weeks of rehab. Yet another risk surgery for Josh Young. Chris, someone I know that you've liked in the past, but I hate to bring up the name.

It's starting to give me some Alex Kirloff vibes here, someone who just dealt with that wrist injury over and over and over again. Yeah, it's a concern for sure for Josh Young. And it clearly, even when he was healthy enough to play, he wasn't healthy this season. You can see in the quality of contact metrics. He just wasn't driving the ball the way he did the year before. I am hopeful that Josh Young will figure things out and enter next season healthy. and avoid any issues in spring training. He didn't get hurt in spring training, right?

It was early on in the season. I think it was like opening day that happened. Or the second game of the season. So, yeah, he never really had a chance last year. I think it's clear. I'm expecting the Rangers offense to bounce back in a big way in 2025. I think Garcia will be better. I think Marcus Simeon will be better.

Hopefully Corey Seeger stays a little more healthy. No more sports hernia is. please, Corey Seeker. And I'm expecting Josh Young to be someone I draft a lot as a corner infielder in 2025. All right. Apparently, Brendan Nimmo has dealt with plantar fasciitis in his left foot since May,

and he aggravated the injury back in the NLDS. It might explain why his numbers fell off so hard this season. Brendan Nimo in the second half hit 190 with a 595 OPS, so pretty bad there. Luis Arise underwent surgery on Wednesday to repair a torn ligament in his left thumb. He played through the injury since late June. The expectation is that he'll be ready for the start of spring training.

And his numbers didn't really fall off. So you'd think that would be more impactful, a torn ligament in the thumb, than Nimmo's planter fasciitis. But I even saw Nimmo said it didn't affect him so much hitting, just running. But even so, I mean, the batting average was so out of character for Nemo that I expected. I expected to bounce back next year. I haven't ranked pretty high, actually, since he became something of a base dealer. Again, oddly enough, while he was battling plantar fasciitis.

I do want to point out with Arias, there was a really good piece on fangrass by Ben and Clemens talking about just kind of how the Padres are probably misusing him as their leadoff hitter. And it makes a lot of sense. And we've talked a lot about, like, Luis Arias is just someone who is just batting average for fantasy. Like, even though he hit lead off for a pretty good lineup, he still only scored 80s. three runs this season. And like, it's because he's almost never in scoring position when he gets on base. Like he's just on first base.

Yeah. And I feel like the Padres lineup would be better. And Luis Arayes would be a better fantasy option if they hit him third. Which is kind of weird because you usually want power hitters there. But he puts the ball in place so much. And he's so good with runners on base. And I just like, that's my hope. I want them to shift him a little bit down.

I think it would make their lineup make more sense. And he would be more than just a one category player in fantasy potential. Again, that's Luis Arise. Yeah, the Padre's lineup construction will be interesting for 2025 because I think there's a few different directions they can go. I mean, they can move Tatis back up to leadoff. He's done that in his career. And we've seen guys like Ronald de Kuna who are dynamic players,

Otani, be amazing as leadoff. hitters. So that could work. I see the move Jackson Meryl up. Yeah, he was the next name I was going to mention. I think that's a possibility as well. So we shall see. Gavin Stone underwent right shoulder surgery last week and is likely to miss the entire 2025 season.

So for a Dodgers team that's always dealing with pitching injuries, they're already down one. They're already down one heading into 2025. So, yeah, that is Gavin Stone. Hassan Kim, who underwent shoulder surgery last Friday, is hoping to be ready for game action by mid-April, which sounds pretty scary. One set back, he could wind up missing a bunch of time.

He also has a mutual option, so likely to be a free agent. We don't know where he's going to play and how healthy he's going to be, so lots of questions here for Hassan Kim in the off-season. Colton Kouser had successful surgery on his fractured hand, and he's expected to be ready for spring. Masataki Yoshida underwent surgery in early October

to repair a laboral tear in his right shoulder, The hope is that Yoshida will be ready in time for opening day, although not clear that he will be ready or limited in spring training. My guess, not going to be on the Red Sox one way or the other. They'd have to eat a good amount of that contract for someone to take them on, but yeah, they might have to just because there are way too many options for the Boston Red Sox right now. And no surprise, but Nick Martinez is expected to opt out of his $12 million deal with the Reds. They could still offer him a one-year qualifying offer,

which would be around $21 million. It's a possibility, but if not, I'd imagine Nick Martinez winds up with a multi-year deal somewhere this off-season. Let's get into some early 2025-chats, and we'll compare and contrast a little bit between Scott and Chris. This is different than years past,

because usually we just have Scott's rankings and we just go down the list, but Chris is here now in the off-season, so we've got a little comparing to do. So Scott's top six catchers for 2025. We have William Contreras, Adly Ruchman, Salvador Perez, Will Smith, Jiner Diaz, and Cal Raleigh. And Chris's top six, William Contreras, Adley, Ruchman,

so same top two. Then Will Smith, Cal Raleigh, Salvador Perez, and Yiner Diaz. So it's the same six, just slightly different order. Really the main difference is that Scott is slightly higher on Salvador Pres. and Chris, it seems like you're just a little bit higher on Cal Raleigh. Yeah, and I do want to point out that I moved Will Smith down as we were talking. I talked to myself into it. He is now number five.

Yeah, I'm not worried. I just, I don't think there's quite as much upside there as the other guys. And obviously, because he's 30, there's some floor. So yeah, I really think after the top two, you can kind of put them in any order. And it just depends on what your team needs and where you're at. So you said earlier in the show, I said I have Cal Raleigh 6th for next year and he said, me too. But now it looks like you have Cal Raleigh third. Yeah.

To further your point just now that it doesn't matter what order you put Raleigh, Salvi, Will Smith, and Yiner D.S. And I guess I basically agree with that. That's that I guess that's a tier. I guess that's a tier right there. The reason I put Salvador Perez the highest of that group is because I'm most confident in him retaining like true every day at bats because he's such a prominent part of the Royals lineup. And they've just, as Frank was saying earlier, they've been so committed to getting him at bats over the years. And to the point of playing him at other positions, so it's not like his body's going to break down. So that's why I have him first of those four.

But I'm tempted to drop Will Smith from fourth to sixth, honestly, because Yiner Diaz and Cal Rale, I just, I'm not sure what advantage Will Smith has on them. a better lineup, I guess, but if he's playing significantly less, that's going to do maybe significant. Significantly less, I guess so. Significantly less. You're talking about those other guys sitting at most once a week

and Will Smith's sitting like two to three times a week. It's a bigger issue, I think, for his run an RBI production than the quality of the lineup around him. The thing I do wonder with Salvador Perez is how, how safe is the playing time, if any Pasquantino doesn't get hurt.

Because he played a lot of first base all season, but especially in the second half. It was, you know, from September 1st on especially, it was, looks like it might have been more first base than catcher. At the very least, it was pretty much an even split. Now, they probably don't just take him out of the lineup in that instance, but he is old enough that at some point,

they've got to start thinking about limiting his exposure behind the plate and if Vinnie Pasquantino stays healthy, Freddie Vermin, like you mentioned, gold glove finalist. I'm looking at the game-by-game lineup for them throughout the season. It seems like they prefer Perez at first base defensively to Vinny Pasquantino. Because on the days when they had Perez at first base. Pasquantino DH'd, yeah.

And if the Royals go out and sign a full-time DH this off-season, Like if, I don't know, J.D. Martinez or something. Yeah. Then I would have some concerns about Perez's playing time. But I don't think that's going to happen. I think they'll want to leave D.H only, if only for him. What the- Open if only for that.

Yeah. I think Rally, we know what the limited limitation is. It's the batting average is going to be bad. I can't see the bottom falling out for Cow Rally. Like, even if he hits 200. I think he's still going to be worth using for fantasy. I can definitely envision a scenario where Salvador Press just isn't very useful. Like it hasn't happened yet, but he's 35. You know, like it's going to happen at some point.

The number of catchers who were good at 35 is like five names long in major league history. So that's why I think they're just going to transition him away from the role and it's already started. Yeah, that's fair. But also, I think the bottom could fall off for him as a first basement as well, you know? Yeah. You know, my only pushback is that we haven't seen any signs of it, right? From Salvador Perez, he just, he continues to perform with that being said. Remember, we were pretty down on Salvador Perez coming into the season.

You know, like the previous couple of years weren't bad. They weren't special either. Right. And like we talked about earlier, such a high floor, right? special April was pretty pedestrian afterwards. So I think there is more skill risk with Salvador Perez than certainly with Cowrally. All right. Let's get into 7 through 12 in the 2025 catcher ranks for Scott.

It's J.T. Real Muto, Wilson Contreras, Shea Langaliers, Logan O'Hopi, Francisco Alvarez, and Tyler Stevenson. and for Chris, it's Shea Langaleeerleers at number seven, then J.C. Rilumuto, Wilson Kutreras, Austin Wells, Francisco Alvarez, and Logan Ohapi. The biggest difference here is that Chris has Austin Wells in his top 10. Scott has him down at 14th.

We'll talk about Austin Wells in just a second. We haven't talked about J.T. Realumuto, this whole episode, and the steals came way down this year. He only had two stolen bases where, you know, normally he's 15 plus, and obviously he's a standout in that category, and that's just really what has separated him at the catcher position for almost the past decade now at this point with J.T. Rolmuto,

but he suffered that knee injury, the meniscus, he had surgery mid-season, and just didn't run at all. So will he get back to running next year? The sprint speed seemed unaffected. He seems like he's still really fast. Do they just want him to stop running the older he gets? I think that's a possibility.

But if he does get back to like 10 to 12 steals, then Real Muto could turn out to be a huge bargain in drafts next year. I mean, I wasn't that tempted to rank him higher than seventh. We saw decline from him last year, too, with the strikeout rate getting worse and basically everything got worse in terms of like batting average RBI runs. He just seemed to be on the decline even heading into

this year. And then he has even worse production. Okay, there was the knee injury mid-season, but it's not like, it's not like you look at the splits before the knee injury and after this knee injury. And it's like, oh, that's what brought Rio Muto's numbers down. He wasn't running before the knee injury either. He only had three steel attempts before May 4th when he initially injured the knee. He's going to be 34 next year. So he like Salvador Perez is beating the odds among catchers. But I think we're actually seeing some of that age catch up to Rio Muto in a way it hasn't yet for Salvador Perez. And okay, he might give you a dozen steals again, but probably not with 25 homers.

And I think clearly a step back from that top six where you're talking 80 plus runs and or RBI for most of them. I don't think Rio Muto's, I think, I think, I think real Muto's, I think, I think, I think real Muto is, going to be more like in the 65, 75 range, even if he stays healthy. His 135 game pace this season, J.T. Romuto, 19 homers, 68 runs, 64 RBI. Again, if he can get back to just 10 steals, there's an argument for him going ahead of Will Smith, right?

I mean, he would basically provide Will Smith numbers with 10 steals. That is the one of the top six that I'm most worried about, Will Smith. So, yeah, I could see that. One name that we have not talked about, Another name we haven't talked about was Wilson Contreras, who just dealt with some rotten luck this season. He had a fractured forearm back in May.

Then he had a fractured finger later on in the season, so he was limited to just 84 games. But when he played, he was pretty awesome. 262 batting average 15 home runs, four steals with an 848 OPS, second highest OPS, and third highest ISO among catchers over the past three years. The expected stats still are good. the ball as hard as anybody. And since joining the Cardinals, they are much more likely to use him as a DH than we ever saw in Chicago. So I really like that for Wilson Contreras's value. The problem, Chris, is that, like, you can't say it for this year because the injuries were

fluky, but you almost have to expect at least one or two, like, IL stints for Wilson Contreras throughout the year. I would also just say, I think he, like, I don't know if there's any teams that want to pay $18 million a year for the next three years for a third. 33 to 35 year old catcher, it feels like a trade would make a lot of sense for everyone involved. You know, like the Pedro Paj and Yvonne Herrera looked fine in filling in for Wilson Contreras. The fit there has never been ideal from literally the very start of his time in St. Louis.

So like, I don't know if I expect to, If I'm 100% certain he'll be back in St. Louis next year. And I don't know what that means as far as playing time, where he ends up. Like you said, the skill set still seems incredibly strong. Like on a per plate appearance basis, he might be one of the five best catchers in fantasy still. It just,

it doesn't feel like the playing time is as locked in for him as for some of the other high-end guys here. Wilson, Kataris, just want to throw this out there, Scott, before you go, 2.9 fantasy points per game. tied for second at the position. So on a per game basis, he's still really good. All right, Scott, you go. Yeah. Yeah.

And so there is, to me, kind of a strong eight or nine here. I guess that's where the next tier drop is after Rio Muto Contreras and Shea Langalears. But I'm kind of reluctantly including Langalears with those other two. And we talked about what foundational concerns might exist for him. I'm a little surprised, Chris, that you have Langalears ahead of both Rio Mewy. and Wilson Contreras when I have him behind because it sounded like you were even more uncertain about Langaleers than I am.

Yeah, for me, it's one, Romuto. I just think the bottom out potential. We're starting to see that possibility here at this point in his career. And Contreras, it's just, like I said, things feel weird with him in St. Louis. I could see, like, it feels a little unsettled. And I don't know if he's as locked into playing time.

as a lot of the other guys at the high end of the position are. Now, maybe that just means he plays more TH, and they carry three catchers, and it's a non-issue, and it actually ends up being good for him. But I just, there's enough uncertainty and weirdness there that it's relatively small distinctions here. I think it's a tier, but that's why I have that order. Chris, when did you become such an ages, man? You think the bottom could fall out for both Salvador Perez and Jay,

AT Real Muto? What did they do to you? What's wrong with the old guys? They're almost as old as me. Oh, no. I don't want to be catching. That's fair. Mention earlier, the biggest difference between your two rankings so far is that, Chris, you have Austin Wells in your top 10.

Scott has him down at 14, and it was a very slow start for Austin Wells, and then he just took off in July, a two-month span there where he hit 303 with nine home runs and a 939 OPS across 44 games, but then he also finished poorly. in September and he's had a pretty bad postseason as well. So what are your just expectations for Austin Wells heading into? I guess his first full season is like the everyday catcher next year. Yeah. So I think the downside, the concerns I guess would be mostly playing time related for me with Austin Wells just because he can't hit lefties or hasn't shown the ability to hit lefties yet. And how consistent have they been with the him not catching Garrett Cole thing?

because I know that was a little bit of a concern around the midway point. He just caught him in the postseason. Yeah. There was some talk of that, him not catching Garrett Cole, but I didn't think it's sustained. So it's mostly he's a platoon player. That's why I'm not too worried about it because like,

look, if you're going to get a couple of days off, it might as well be against the guys you can't hit anyway. He had a 526 OPS against lefties. He had a 761 OPS against Ritees. But the underlying skill set here is even stronger than the overall numbers suggest. He had a 3.41 expected woba, only a 315 actual woba. For a lefty pull hitter in Yankee Stadium,

you certainly wouldn't expect them to underperform their underlying stats. So that's why I think I take the underlying stats mostly at face value. And I do think Austin Wells has the potential to be I think there's 25 homer upside here, honestly. Like I think there might not be like 25 homers with a decent batting average is within the realm of possibility for Austin Wells, I think. Let's wrap up talking about Francisco Alvarez, unless you have something you want to say. Well, I will bring Francisco Alvarez into it. I just wanted to counter why I have Austin Wells outside my top 12 and four spots lower is because I, I,

I agree with the upside. I just, I don't think he's going to get the playing time to get the 25 home runs. And look, Oh, O'Hopi certainly has 25 home run upside, too. Alvarez may even have more than that. He was pretty useless this past year, but I think in terms of raw ability, Francisco Alvarez has the most of anyone in this group. And the Mets are going to play him plenty. They have been playing him plenty.

I just, I think they screwed him up. And I don't know like so young I mean I know I don't want to give up on him I just I think that there was a a quote I can't even remember who they're hitting coaches I'm sorry I'm sure that's the kind of thing you're supposed to know but I just don't have room in my brain for every team's hitting coach but there was a quote from him where it was like we know Francisco alvarez can hit for power what we want to do is see him make contact and hit for batting average and then the power will come. Well, what happened this year was nothing came. You know, he was hitting for average early on, 296 in the first half, but there was no power there. And it collapsed in the second half.

And I just, I don't know, between, like, I know Mark Vientos has been a big success story for the Mets. And that's great. But between Alvarez and Bady, I'm just like, I have questions. about how the Mets are approaching their young players. And there's just almost nothing in the underlying skill set that he's shown at the major league level to be excited about. He has a 310, uh, his 310 Wobah for his career to 301 X Woba. His max ex Velo, 115 miles an hour. That's really good.

Like 95th percentile. Like the high end power, the raw power readings for Francisco Alvarez are among the best. at the position. But that's the end of the list. But he's 22. Yeah, no, I agree.

It's rare for any catcher prospect to even reach the majors by 22. And Francisco Alvarez has played parts of three seasons in the majors. Or parts of fours? Oh, no, three seasons. Yeah,

basically just two. And he had the wrist injury this year that it's worth pointing out. And catchers take longer to develop. But catchers also very often, probably more than any other position, just flop. It's true, but I think knowing how much Alvarez

is going to play and knowing what the pedigree is, however talented I think Austin Wells may be, I think you're going to find a handful of catchers outside the top 12 who will produce more or less like he does, because I just think

the bats are going to be limited that much. And so I don't think you're missing out on as much by passing him over, maybe I read it wrong and he'll end up playing a ton next year. I end up playing, you know, four out of every five games. But I think it'll be more like two out of every three. And Alvarez and especially O'Hoppy are presuming good health for all three of them.

They're going to have like a hundred, hundred, 150 a bad advantage on him. Yeah. And Chris, you did mention this. I do think that there is a real chance that this entire season was just derailed by injury. for Alvarez. He had surgery on his left thumb back in April. He returned in June, apparently dealt with some shoulder soreness in July. I mean, that's me giving him the benefit of the doubt to, you know, a young player who... I think that's reasonable. Who might not deserve it. I mean, he's a young player. He doesn't have a huge track record or anything, but as a rookie,

he hit 25 home runs in 423 plate appearances. So if he can just get back to that level with a slightly better batting average, I mean, he's basically Che Langalears, right? And I don't know what their ADPs are going to look like, I guess Langlars will be drafted higher. So if you're getting Alvarez at a discount, and again, given his prospect pedigree and just that power upside, yeah, he could make for a target here in 2025, someone who's kind of like underrated by the public. And just one other note, just to kind of put it all in perspective, because we're quibbling, Austin Wells, Francisco Alvarez. I have Tyler Stevenson ranked 12th, so we could put him in this discussion too.

I kind of don't care that much at this point in the catcher rankings. Like it, it more or less ends with me, Shea Langaleers at number nine, catchers that I think are worth valuing on any level. Yeah. I might, my number 10 is Logan O'Hoppy.

I feel a little bit better about him than some of these others. I think what happened to him the last two months is more out of character than what he showed in the first four months. So I might. go a little further for Logan O'Hopi, I might include him among the catchers I want. But that's, I understand that's partly me playing favorites. I think the clear drop off at the position is after number nine.

Again, that's the top 12 rankings for both Scott and Chris at the catcher position. And this is meant to be like a bit of an appetizer. Obviously, 2025 is a long ways away before we get to, you know, position previews in February and spring training and all that fun stuff. So obviously we're going to go much more in depth throughout the offseason, but this is, again, meant to be a little bit of an appetizer. And if you do want some more rankings, by the way,

we only mentioned Scott's top 12. You can actually find his top 20 on the website. So just go to CBSports.com slash fantasy slash baseball, and you can find his article ranking the top 20 catchers for next season. We are going to wrap there for Scott and Chris. I am Frank. Thanks as always for tuning in to fantasy baseball today. Please make sure to follow and leave a 5-star rating on Apple or Spotify.

And we will be back again next week. Bye-bye. Paramount Podcasts.