Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #107 John McAvoy: How to Thrive in Lockdown

Episode Date: April 10, 2020

Many of us are struggling to adjust to this new way of life. Having spent 24 hours a day in a 12ft by 8ft prison cell for a whole year, my guest on this week’s podcast knows more about isolation than most of us. You may remember John McAvoy from episode 91 of the podcast, where he shared his inspirational story of going from serving two life sentences to breaking British and World sporting records whilst in prison. Now a free man, he is Nike sponsored athlete and gives talks to schoolchildren and has spoken at 10 Downing Street. On this podcast, John shares what he learnt from his time in isolation – lessons which we can all apply in our lives, especially now. He explains how he maintained a sense of control over his life by keeping himself mentally and physically fit and why keeping a routine, staying active and keeping ourselves present in the moment are more important now, than ever. John invites us to think of our current situation as an amazing opportunity to re-evaluate our lives and explore new things with the new found extra time. If we look at what John achieved whilst in a small isolated prison, imagine what we can all achieve in our own lives right now. As John says, this could be your moment of growth. Finally, John shares his invaluable top tips that I know will help many of you bring a sense of calm and control into your lives. Whenever I speak to John, I come out of the conversation a better and more enlightened person than I was when we started, after listening to this, I hope you do too.  Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/107 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is an amazing opportunity now for all of us. My life's been paused basically. All of our lives are on the pause button and it's now looking at the situation before my life was put on pause and looking at certain aspects of it and going when I press play in next week or the week after the week after that whenever it is but when I press play was I really happy with what I was doing before I press pause and if I wasn't this is an amazing opportunity to start thinking about what else you want to do with your life when you do press that play button again. Hi my name is Rangan Chatterjee welcome to episode 107 or feel better, live more. So how are you all doing? You feeling good?

Well, I'm actually doing pretty well today. And the sun that is shining here in the UK is certainly helping my moods. Now, if you're a regular listener, you'll know that over the past couple of weeks, I'm releasing a lot of follow-up conversations with previous guests on my show. In fact, many of these repeat guests conversations with previous guests on my show. In fact, many of these repeat guests are firm favourites with you all. We've had Johan Hari, Gabor Maté,

and now on today's show, we have the amazing John McAvoy. Now, one of the reasons for this is because I've already got an existing relationship with previous guests, and because of the current situation in society, and because I have to do these conversations now over technology, I think it's easier for me and my guests to quickly build up rapport and connection because we're not speaking for the very first time together. Now, you may remember today's guest from my New Year's Day episode this year, where I went through, in detail, his phenomenal story. Now, to recap, although he's still a young man, John's story is worthy of a Hollywood movie. He's nearly been shot dead twice by the police,

was given a life sentence at the age of 24 years old, has been face-to-face with some of the most dangerous people in society. And yet, despite that, he has completely transformed his life. He's now a free man, a Nike-sponsored athlete, and spends his time trying to help and inspire others. So why have I spoken to John again so soon after our first episode? Well, it's super simple, really. Many of us are struggling to adjust to a new way of life. Social distancing, only being allowed out once per day, and not being able to travel for work or for pleasure are proving quite challenging for so many of us. So I think there is incredible value to listen to people who have previously been locked up, especially in solitary confinement. How did

they cope and what lessons can we learn from them? You see, when John was only 19 years old, he spent pretty much 24 hours a day in a 12 foot by 8 foot prison cell for an entire year. So he probably knows a thing or two about coping in isolation. On this podcast, John shares what he learned from his time in solitary confinement, lessons which we can all apply in our lives, especially right now. He explains how he maintained a sense of control over his life by keeping himself mentally and physically fit, and while keeping a routine, staying active and keeping ourselves present in the moment are more important now than ever before. John's experience is going to help teach you how to not only survive isolation, but how to thrive in it as well.

And John invites us to think of our current situation as an amazing opportunity to re-evaluate our lives and remind ourselves of what is truly important. If we look at what John achieved and what John learns from being isolated in prison, imagine what we can all achieve in our own lives. As John says, this could be your moments of growth. Finally, John shares his invaluable top tips that I know are going to help so many of you bring a sense of calm and control into your lives. John is one of the most genuine, humble and authentic individuals I've ever had the privilege of speaking to. Whenever I speak to John, I come out of the conversation a better and more enlightened person. After listening to this, I hope you do too. Now before we get started, I do need to give a quick shout out to some of the sponsors who are essential in order for me to put out episodes like this one.

Athletic Greens continue their support of my podcast. Now, Athletic Greens is one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that I've come across and contains vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, and digestive enzymes. I know many of you are using Athletic Greens as part of your daily routine. You're getting up, you're having your glass of water with Athletic Greens in that's helping you feel as though you are doing something proactive for your health right from the get-go. Now, I do prefer that people get all of their nutrition from food, but I do recognize that for some of us, this is not always possible. So, if you're looking to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend it. For listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you will be able to access a special offer

where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around 70 pounds with your first order. You can check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation. So John, welcome back to the podcast. Well, what's happened since we last spoke to each other? It's just gone crazy, isn't it? Yeah, it has gone crazy. And, you know, we were just chatting, weren't we, before

I pressed record on Skype. But, you know, know in the past I've always insisted on doing pretty much all of my conversations face to face you know it took us about a year to do the first one because you know we wanted to do it face to face whereas we got this sorted out in a few days because we're doing it over Skype which I think you know I mean how's it for you what's it like doing it over Skype? I always I would rather this sort of human interaction of being in the same room with people, like we were just talking about before we come on air. Sometimes when you use other platforms

and you have group meetings, I kind of really struggle with it because I like the human connection of being in the same room with someone and being able to read their body language. I think, obviously, the flow of the conversation is a lot easier as well when you're actually with someone in the same room um so yeah it's sort of I'm having to get used to

this now because this week I've already had about four or five meetings via um different sort of applications group meetings and um it's it's a bit hard because because I talk so much so I sort of over talk people and then I go really quiet for ages and and then as I go to talk, someone else talks over me. So I'm starting to sort of get used to it now, the little bit of the delay and so on and so forth. Yeah, it's funny you say that. I mean, very similar with me, really. I think there's a lot of benefits that have come about so far.

I've realised that I can have team meetings over Zoom really, really quickly, and you don't have to get everyone together in the same place. I think I've learned that there are some benefits. I interviewed Johan Hari for this podcast last week, that's just gone live. And there was a delay throughout the whole course. So I'm always, you know, trying to predict when he's about to end. So there's not a huge pause there, which is clearly suboptimal. But hey-ho, you know, the world has changed and the way we do things has got to change as well. So, John, the reason we wanted to get back together and chat, and we'd always said we were going to do a part two,

but I think we certainly imagined we'd do part two in very different circumstances to this. Yes, yes. You've been putting out quite a few interesting Instagram posts recently about how we can manage isolation. And, you know, for people who've not heard that first conversation we did, which was episode 91. And for anyone listening to this or watching it on YouTube, if you have not seen or heard that conversation I did with John that I released on New Year's Day, I would really, really encourage you to do it.

It's absolutely, without doubt, one of the most impactful episodes I've ever released on the show before. People are still retweeting it now, three months after we released it. And John, I think we should share that we've been working hard on this. We've managed to get it now

put onto prison radio, haven't we? Yes, which I'm eternally grateful to you for um just to give you like a little bit of context to listeners right now that are suffering um we've all we're all in the same situation like we're all sort of self-isolating to to a degree at home we might be going outside and doing an hour's exercise so on and so forth but today currently in the UK prison system, it's very concerning because these men, women and children are being locked up for 23, 24 hours a day. There's already a huge problem within the prison service with mental health. And now suddenly people are being locked up completely and not going out to work. Unless it's essential work within the prison, like the laundry or catering like cooking I'm everyone else

is basically locked up and and I was really like I was really concerned because some of this some of the people reaching out to me throughout the prison system are basically saying to me is there anything you can do to help us with providing some sort of some sort of inspiration something to give these men and women and children in prison to let them know that it's but it's it's gonna they're in a bad situation at the moment they're now in basically like segregation and how can this 80 000 plus men how can we give them this little bit of hope and um and straight away what come into my mind was our podcast and our

conversation um and i'm eternally grateful to you and your team for being able to be so accommodating to to break down that podcast into sort of 55 minute chunks because obviously prison technology and and the way that technology works in prison is is is very outdated um and they haven't got access to the internet so obviously you had to think outside the box a little bit to be able to make that become a reality and and i thank you so much for and your team that put that podcast together as which has allowed it to be played in the prison system because as i said there's going to be a lot of people currently locked up um and and and i and i actually think a lot of them don't really understand severity of what's going on outside from what i'm hearing back they don't really understand um, again,

they're in a cocoon bubble in prison anyway. But all they know is now that they're basically put in segregation, they're locked up for 23 or 24 hours a day with a very limited amount of time outside their cells for exercise. So I just wanted the podcast to go inside the prison service because I genuinely believe that it could give a little bit of hope to people inside the prison service because I genuinely believe that it could it could give a little bit of hope to people that the situation you find yourself in is what you make of it and how what you take out of that situation and you can turn it into a positive because I kind of made my life by being locked in a room on my own um in complete isolation and and and I'm I'm the

person I am today because of that experience and and and i believe you can take positives out of this very sort of what can be perceived to be a very negative situation yeah yeah for sure john uh there's so much to touch on there i mean first of all it is my absolute pleasure to try and get that in a in a form for prison radio that's going to work because the whole point of everything I do on this podcast is to help people try to give out information that people are going to find inspiring and help improve their lives and you know we've always wanted to get this into the prison service and now particularly with the new self-isolation that is also impacting people in

prison you know we will do anything we can to actually get this content out there. And, you know, even if just one or two people hear it, and it changes their perspective on the next few weeks and months ahead, well, that will have been worth it. So, you know, there's no problem there at all. I mean, John, when you were mentioning prison there, you said men, women and children. And I think for many of us listening, you know, many people listening to this now will possibly not have thought about prisoners at the moment. They will be thinking about their own lives and how are they going to manage with their work, the fact that their kids might be home, now they have to homeschool and work, all kinds of things. And that's understandable,

you know, people are looking to themselves initially and going, well, what does this mean for me? How can I change things? But I was really struck there when you said men, women and children. And, you know, the women and children piece in particularly children in prison. I mean, that's quite, for people who don't think about that, that is, it's really quite striking to think of these guys being isolated as well in prison and i guess sometimes we don't even think about children being in prison it is again um you i often say this in life you only know what you know and and a lot of society doesn't really get to see um unless you really search out for it you don't really know the numbers like um yesterday and you have to praise the moj for this they released 35 pregnant women from prison yeah um because of the risk to to

chip to um pre-born children um so again they deserve praise for that they've they've allowed those women um to be released from prison because of the risk of the virus affecting them whilst they're in prison um but children in particular are very vulnerable. And again, some of them have done very bad stuff and they deserve to be in prison. But they are still children and you can't just give up on them because I always say I turn my life around and I do something with my life and I achieve what I've done

and everyone has the potential to do that. And I felt from my own set of circumstances that I have a moral obligation because I've done and everyone has the potential to do that and and I felt from my own set of circumstances that I have a moral obligation because I've been through the journey I've been through and been in prison and I've come out and I've been successful I have to reach back inside that prison and help young people um and show them the the light that there's a there's another opportunity for them to better their lives and be better people and and if they can listen to the podcast that we've done um I'm currently working on sending 3 000 books so every single young offender in the country gets to read my book in segregation because that's where my life was born

out of like when i was locked in that cell for 24 hours a day for for a whole calendar year that situation made me the man i am today so i just want to try to put as many seeds in these young men's minds in this very challenging time for young people in that situation and just show them that even though it might feel very dark at the moment, it's the choices and decisions you choose to make now that could make help you better your life. Like it's the perspective it's it's keeping yourself in the moment I think that's very important when I was in prison um and I was locked up uh

I was in there for 10 years in total and vast majority of that sentence I was in 24 hour a day lock up which I've done that for a whole calendar year where I didn't leave the cell once or I was locked up for 23 hours a day or 22 and a half hours a day so the vast majority of the sentence I was kind of locked up on my own because I wasn't sharing a cell with anyone but I made decisions whilst I was in that situation and I made choices which which allowed me to grow as a person because I wanted something else for my life. And I realized even though I was in a situation where you could perceive it as being wasted time, I didn't want to waste that time and I went to make the most of it. So I chose to read books to educate myself.

And then I started exercising because it made me feel alive. At the time, I didn't really understand the exercise and the effects it had on my mental health but it had a profound impact on my mental health um because it got me through a very challenging situation in my life and that's why I am so adamant and I and since this whole situation has um occurred everything I'm trying every message I've been trying to put out through social media and through friends that I know is to stay active. Yeah. My top tip is to keep a routine as well.

Try to follow a structure every day. Don't start going to bed four hours later than you normally used to go into bed. Don't start waking up three hours later than you normally used to waking up. Keep that routine and keep yourself in the moment and stay present don't think this could go on for five months it could go on for a year because you watch the news sometimes and and i try to limit my news intake because you're just getting this reinforcement of negativity constantly and some people saying it might go on for a month another person goes it might go on to 2021 and all I'd say is about managing yourself in the present and keeping yourself in the present and what you're doing every single day yeah and that's what helped me get through a very

challenging situation yeah John look there's so much to talk about here and this is the exact reason why we wanted to have this conversation was because you know you were in isolation and now it seems like the whole country or a huge part of the country has been also put in isolation and so the lessons that you learned about yourself are possibly things that we can all learn from now because for many of us we've never faced anything like this before I think probably for most of us we've never faced anything like this. So just to really, you know, just to summarise again for people, John's got an incredibly inspirational story. He had two life sentences. He was locked up at a very young age. And through finding sport and through changing your mindset, you managed to rehabilitate yourself. You're now a free man.

And now you're helping, you know, inspire generations of people here in the UK, all around the world with your, frankly, your incredible story. So that's the kind of top line here. Now, when we went into your story, we went into it in a lot of detail. There were a few transition points. There was one particular moment when you were locked up, when I think one of your friends who you saw on your prison TV had died in Holland, I think from recollection. So that was a big turning point for you. So what I really want to understand is, so you were in a prison cell and you said for the majority of the time you were in solitary confinement. So you only found physical activity in a big way after you had that sort of life

awakening event when you're when you're one of your best buddies died and you saw that on tv so i want to i want to sort of tap into what happened before that before you found physical activity you were also experiencing confinement right is that yeah so yeah like so so when so when i when i first went to prison because there's there's two parts of that story there's when i went to prison when i was a young man um when i was 18 years old that's where i was in segregation for a year um when i when i was locked in that room for 24 hours a day um I I had very limited um access to resources so like I had the bunk beds I had a chair I had a cardboard table um and that that was it um I I I had no other resources to access really um so when I was in that situation I had to make decisions um how I was going to mentally cope with being a

young man because at this point I was like 19 years old how was I going to get myself through this situation and someone said to me when you go to prison you don't live you just exist and I needed to feel alive now I wasn't physically active as a young person I didn't really engage in sport whatsoever but when I was in this cell and I was locked up, I just started exercising one day. I don't know what, I didn't do it for aesthetics. I didn't do it to be an athlete. But I started doing these circuits

and I was so, so unfit and overweight and unhealthy. I did that unhealthy lifestyle, taking drugs. I was probably about two or three stone overweight. I was drinking and I was a teenager, but I was living that very typical criminal lifestyle hanging out with really old criminals and so when that was my starting point but when I was in that prison cell um like I said I made a decision in that cell that I was going to try to to better myself um I didn't I didn't want to be rehabilitated at this point. I didn't want to change,

but I needed to feel alive because I was literally locked in a 12 by 8 foot cage, concrete coffin, as I used to like to call it. And I thought, how can I get through this? So exercising and reading

were the two things and the only things I had. And having control as well of my body, I still had control of my body. So when I was locked in that cell, the only thing I could control wasn't my environment. I could only control myself. It was my physical being. So that's what sort of got me to start training. And like I said in the first podcast, i used to do press-ups burpees

step-ups and i used to put my chair prison chair to the end of the cell so i these tiny two little vents in the window to let a bit of fresh air come through into the cell so when i used to do the step-ups you used to get a bit of breeze onto your face and at the beginning i just used to do like 10 of each exercise then the next day it was 20 and I just kept building it up and eventually I'd do 1000 of each exercise and I'd wake up in the morning I'd do my cell circuit and then for the rest of the day I'd read books and the library used to bring books around um and then I got released and when I got released and I was back into society again like I said I didn't want to change I didn't want to be rehabilitated I just got straight back into old habits. So, John, that's super interesting for me that,

because there are two parts of this story. So part one is you're young, you know, you're 18, 19 years old. You don't want to, you know, you've been caught, you're in prison, you're going to serve your time, get out and get back to your criminal life. So at that time, your mindset was simply about how do I get through this how do I maintain my sanity how do I come out the other end so I can get back to doing what I was doing before so that is very different from afterwards but but what I find what's really interesting when I hear that I don't know if you saw at the weekend um Terry Waite wrote an article in the press um so Terry Wa wait for people who are listening to

this who don't know i think people in the uk will probably be familiar with the story i don't know if listeners around the world will also know him to the same degree but he used to be a hostage negotiator and he was caught i think he was caught in beirut and um while he was trying to negotiate and then he was taken hostage himself and i think think he was in, I think for about four to five years, he was kept hostage. Now he said in that article, um, that basically he could go to the toilet once a day. He had no books, no music. He didn't see another human being, I think for four to five years and he was sharing some of the things that he did to get himself through and and what was really interesting when

I heard that and when I read that it really changed my perspective on my own situation I thought wait a minute Terry White has come out the other side he didn't see another human being he had no books he had no music he had no music he had no netflix he had no internet right he could only go to the toilet once a day i think most of us if we compare ourselves to terry we'd be like actually this is quite a luxurious existence if you compare it to terry wait so what he got through and yeah he was mentioning the importance of mindset he was mentioning the importance of routine every day. You've got to keep a routine. So I just wanted to add that there, that perspective is everything, right?

Because we can feel quite down on ourselves. And I am not at all underestimating how scared people are feeling, how worried people are. Some people have literally lost their jobs, their businesses, their livelihoods overnight. I'm not making light of that. But I think a bit of perspective for many of us where we see John's, sorry, Terry Waite's situation, but also your situation, John, where, you know, as you said, it probably, I don't know, what do you, when I talk to you about Terry Waite's situation, how do you,

what does that do to you? What do you think? Because it sounds as if that was more severe than yours even. Is that fair to say? 100%. And that, again, it's perspective. It's like the situation that we're currently going in at the moment. Like, I don't feel sorry for my situation because we're doing this podcast now.

I'm able to train upstairs in my house in my turbo train i've got a machine here um and to me i my perspective because i've been i've been segregated and isolated in a in a box with with nothing this isn't that bad like i'm able to go out once a day i'm able to go to the shop and buy groceries and come back. But there are other people that are in a very, very far, and far worse situation than me. And I feel so sorry for them. Like the people you just mentioned, the people losing their jobs, the people that are stressed out,

the people that have never been in a situation like this before and struggling a lot. And that's what makes me feel really sad about the current situation. And I would honestly say to every person listening to this situation, it is about perspective. And there are a lot of people in a far worse situation than us around the world that are dealing with this and people in India and in Africa and in the Middle East. And they're in a very, very, very bad situation.

And we are very fortunate in the West that if you're listening to this now you've got an iphone and you've got technology we're very fortunate in that regard that we can afford hand sanitizer and we've got a very good national health service that's going to sort of help and look after the vulnerable in the week but what i've gone through this journey recently with what's happening my frustration has really become about what can i do more like i want to help people i want i want to give back and i want to be a service to people and and i and i and i would say this to listeners now like you you don't need to be a multi-millionaire football player to help people you can help your next door neighbors um and like yesterday for instance like my my bin right but i don't like calling them that my the waste disposal guys that

um clear all the rubbish up outside the house they pulled up outside and i was walking up the road and um and i saw him coming up and i waved and they waved and i had 40 pound in my pocket and and i went to go up to him and i could see he got a little bit startled because of the two meter and i was going to respect for and i put it in the windscreen and i said that's for you and and the guys to buy yourself a coffee or a couple of beers when this is all over but I appreciate what you're doing for me and what you're doing for the community like I appreciate that and it made me feel so good to know that I made that man for a little bit special for that moment and those guys in that dustbin trap and because I'm privileged to be able to do that and I do believe a lot of people are very fortunate and very privileged

to have resources to be able to give back and now and now this is the time like a lot of people say to me i want to help people i want to do this and do that this is our opportunity now to do that we can give back we can be of service to other people that are less fortunate than us and and again you don't have to be a multi-millionaire football player you could just help them the old lady next door the old lady that lives up the road and give back and just help them pick up their groceries send and put a note for their letterbox and go this is my phone number if you need to speak or talk i'm here for you um and i think this is an amazing opportunity for people that are in a very fortunate situation and and are affluent or they've got privilege

for now to be able to reach back and help members of the community lift people up yeah yeah john i mean amazing and and it doesn't surprise me at all that you're doing that you're such an incredible human being you're so humble there's such um there really is a desire i got that you know i sat a meter away from you for two to three hours last time and then i think you joined us for some food in my home afterwards with my wife and kids and i I really got to know you and, and, uh, you know, you're so genuine in what you're trying to do. And you really, you know, you've never wanted sympathy. You've said, you know, you made your choices, you live with them. You're just making different choices now. And, you know, it's, it's very, very inspiring the way you are looking at your life and the way you're moving on and you're

taking full responsibility for what you did and you're moving on you make a different choices but what you said about not needing to be a multi-millionaire football I think that's so important as we're recording this John it's a Wednesday I on my Instagram launched a seven-day kindness challenge on Monday which was inspired by last week's podcast with David Humlinson, which is all around kindness and how good it is for our health, how it helps us lower stress levels, improves our relationships, makes us happier, can even reverse aging. Some studies have showed being kind. But what was really interesting is that David shared some research by saying, if you, if an individual does an act of kindness to another individual over the course of a day that can spread very quickly to 125 more people and really making

the case and we recorded this you know well before coronavirus uh sort of became you know global news and this whole idea that kindness is contagious and the smallest acts of kindness you you know even if we're privileged even if we're not privileged if we're feeling really bad and really low at the moment you know doing a small act of kindness for somebody whether it's your next door neighbor whether it's you know saying hi to the you know the bin collectors and saying hey guys really really appreciate you um whether it is you know going through your phone book and just going through it random and sending people voice messages or text messages you've not spoken to in years as you said john it's not just about that

other person you felt better when you gave that 40 quid to the bin collector and i would say for people anyone listening to this right now if you do an act of kindness immediately after this podcast no matter how small it is you're going to feel better you're going to feel like the world's a little bit of a better place um so i think that's really really important and we're all in this together we're all in it together everyone like now we're we're kind of we're all equal into regards like we've we've all had our freedoms restricted um and and this is a time now for us to come together as one and help each other we we're all in the same boat to to a degree we're all in

the same situation now and i think this is such an important moment for for this country and I think for the world um because I do think I think there will be positive change from this I I had a really interesting conversation um last week with a friend of mine that works for a company in London and he was very well paid job um yeah he's got a one-year-old baby and he was in the park with her on a Wednesday afternoon and and he hasn't experienced that for since she's been born because he's been at work all the time and it's made him evaluate his own life and I think this is an amazing opportunity now for for all of us even myself like I've even done it my life's been paused basically my every all of our lives are on the pause button and it's now looking at this situation before my life was put on pause and

looking at certain aspects of it and going when i press play in next week or the week after the week after that whenever it is but when i press play was i really happy with what i was doing before i pressed pause and if I wasn't this is an amazing opportunity to start thinking about what else you want to do with your life when you do press that play button again do you want to carry on doing the same job or do you want to do something else and I think this is such an amazing opportunity for all of us to take stock of our lives and use this time like doing things that you've always wanted to do if you want to speak another language or take up a hobby like you've got the time now to do if you want to speak another language or take up

a hobby like you've got the time now to do that and invest in yourself um like i invested in myself whilst i was in prison i started exercising that then that made me fitter i started reading it helped me um with my education i learned i learned different things about different cultures and different lives and and and and that's benefited me massively, the person I am today. So this situation, outwardly, you could perceive it as being very negative. But actually, this could be your moment of growth. Like you could get so much out of the situation to move forward with the rest of your life and leave life that you've always wanted to leave off the back of it. Yeah, for sure, John. And I think that is something I've been reflecting on loads and i love that whole thing about your life being on pause

and i guess it's very much like you know the dvd that was playing in your life do you want that same dvd to continue or do you want to take it out of the player and get a brand new dvd and pop that in and i think all of us you know when i am at home um and my kids are here you know you mentioned routine one thing i've really started to block off in my diary is they they've got a homeschooling program from their school at the moment so they're you know we're not being frankly i'm not that bothered about them following every aspect of that i think you know there's there's far more important things going on at the moment i think yeah follow a benefit if they're getting something out of it but if they're not okay there's other things they can be doing they also can take this as an opportunity to paint to you know to practice monkey bars uh for example you

know again i'm lucky that i've got some monkey bars in the back gardens as long as that they can play on um but but it's fascinating for me that i've realized we were chatting over dinner last night my wife myself and the kids talking've realised, we were chatting over dinner last night, my wife, myself and the kids. We were talking about the situation. We were saying, hey guys, how are you finding this? And they both had a big smile on their face and giggled to each other. I said, what are you liking?

And we said, are you enjoying being at home at the moment? And they had a big smile on their face. And I think they're loving the fact that, daddy can't travel at the moment. He can't go to London and do these overnights when he's away. And so, like, daddy's around for breakfast and dinner every day. And I'm also enjoying seeing them all the time and thinking, wow, do I want my life to go back to the way it was before that?

Well, maybe some aspects, maybe not. You know, it's going to be individual for all of us. We've all got to figure that out for ourselves. There's no one right answer. But I think there is an opportunity for growth for all of us if we're prepared to take it. John, I want to just go back to you in the prison cell for a second, because as you said, there were two parts to that story. Part one, you've explained, you know, you're a kid, you didn't want to, you don't want to change, You just wanted to get through. And you figured out that you had to exercise each day.

I think read. Is that right? Is that what you spent your time doing first time around? Okay. So then you get freed. You get back to your life. And you go back in for the second time. So just to recap, how old were you then?

And then what happened that time? Were you better prepared because you'd already done it once? You thought, okay, I know the drill here. I'm just going to do my exercise and my reading and that'll get me through. You know, talk us through that. So when I went back the second time, I was 22 years old. And it was a different set of emotions because when I went to prison when I was a young man, when I was basically a kid still, I was a teenager,

it was unknown. I had no fear. I'd never experienced it before. It was complete. I'd never even been arrested by the police. So I'd get arrested the first time and end up going to prison. It was all unknown to me. But when I got arrested the second time, obviously I'd experienced it.

I tasted it. I'd spent a year of it in isolation. So I knew what was coming. So even to the degree that when I got arrested, I remember I was having a car chase and I had this voice in my head. Like I'm talking to you now, I could hear it in my head. And it just repeat the same words, I'm not going back to prison. And I was totally prepared in that moment to die trying to get away from the police, because I was so fearful about going back to that situation I've been in before. And I remember thinking, I'm not going back to prison, I'm not going back to prison. And obviously, I end up getting arrested and I got caught and I remember being face down on the floor and I was surrounded by armed police and it was like a road truck had just wiped me out like I knew what was coming I knew the situation I was going to go back to I knew I was going to be locked up in a cell again

and I knew I was going back for a lot lot longer than I did the first time because obviously I was re-offended. When I went back to prison this time, everything had completely changed because now I'm a grown man. I'm 22 years old. And the Metropolitan Police made an application to the Ministry of Justice of Home Office at the time, which was to basically make me a double category, a high risk prisoner, which is the highest level of security that you can be on in prison in the United Kingdom. So to give you some perspective of that, there was, in the whole of the prison system, and at that point, I think it was nearly 90,000 men. Out of 90,000 men, there was 28 men that escape had to be made impossible.

And the likelihood of those 28 people trying to escape were so severe that the escape must be made impossible um so which basically meant you was then incarcerated in the most draconian environment which was on a hsu which is a high secure prison unit in belmarsh prison so it's a prison within a prison. That got built in the 90s to house the IRA. And obviously as sort of the world moved on and changed, it was predominantly then people that was in there for terrorism. The suicide bombers that tried to block the tube in 21-7, Sheikh Abdul Hamza.

And I got basically put on that unit. I got the MOJ and home office approved it um the application that police put in because the police said that I had the resources to be able to escape from awful custody and and I got put on this high secure prison unit and and the only way you can explain it is is like um we used to call it the underground bunker there's there's not much natural light on there it's very claustrophobic when you go out and exercise when you look up at the sky there's so much anti-helicopter wire netting that you can you can see the sky but it's basically through like a hamster cage it's just dark gray, smells of bleach.

And then when I went on to that unit, I knew that was going to be my life for quite a substantial amount of time because I knew I was going to have to wait to go on trial. So straight away, I went back to my coping mechanism, which was doing my cell circuits and it was reading books. And I was locked up on that unit for two years for 23 hours a day. I was locked up for on average, I would say, just in this very claustrophobic bunker. And I reverted back to type, like I said, I started doing the cell circuits, I started reading books. But again, it's very important for me to keep myself in the moment because I knew at this point I knew I was going to get a long time I didn't actually realize how long I was going to actually get but if you sit in a situation you're crossing days off a calendar and you start thinking to yourself I could potentially spend 10 Christmases in this place or 10 summers and

you're looking around at four walls, you would go insane. Like you literally cannot break time down in that format in your mind because it just seems like it's insurmountable. So this is super interesting, John. So let's just go there. So you're in that cell, you're in this prison within a prison.

As you say, I can't imagine that. Whenever you, when you are allowed out for that once a day, you know, it's dark, there's anti-helicopter wires everywhere. So you can't even properly see the sky and actually, you know, have that sort of natural feeling that many of us get when we go outside. So you've already been in isolation once in a different prison. So you're going into that, you know, does it take a little bit of time to get used to it? You know, why I'm asking that question is, you know, as we record this podcast, it is nine to 10 days since Boris Johnson gave his evening statement where he

basically put UK society on this sort of lockdown. So, you know, there are various stages within that. I think for some people, for the first couple of days, it's a bit of disbelief. It's a bit of resistance then. And then at some point that turns into acceptance of the new reality, right? And so what happens for someone like yourself, you know, you knew you were in for a long time.

Did you resist an issue did you go did you almost disbelieve it ah this is not happening this is this can't be happening this is oh something's going to change or or you know i'm wondering what we can learn from that for people listening to this right now who are still in disbelief who are still thinking this is not really happening this is going to end this weekend and then it's just going to be like a bad dream. What can we learn from you in those initial moments? So I'll give you an example. When I initially first, so day dot, very first day, I went into the HSU prison in Belmarsh the second time I got arrested.

For that very first week, I remember the next day when I woke up in that prison I thought what was I doing last week this time and I was outside and a Wednesday what did I do last Wednesday I was outside and then what ended up happening when I got to the second week I thought to myself what was I doing last Monday then I was inside and then Tuesday I was inside and what you what was important for me was you do resist at the beginning of course you do um because you don't want this to be your life because it's not comfortable it's not nice um you're having things taken away from you you don't want to let go of it is very important that you come to accept it um and you come to manage the situation that you're in because if you don't

do that you're just going to end up driving yourself mad and you're not really going to be productive in the situation that you're in because you are in that situation we're all in that situation so I think it's about accepting it which I did and once I accepted it it was like well how am I now going to cope with the situation and that's where then I then put things in place which was the exercising which was the reading which was the structure of my own day in that very small space well let's talk through that structure I agree acceptance is is is the first stage for people and so if someone's listening to this right now and they're still resisting as hard as it, this is the new reality. And the sooner we accept it, the sooner then we can plan. I think Peter Crone, who I did a podcast with a few months ago,

he said, whenever you have resistance to the way that life is, that is dis-ease in the body. There's a lack of ease. And it really fits in the circumstance, doesn't it? Anytime you resist the way life is, you're not at peace. You're fighting. Your stress response system is slightly up because you're trying to resist. So the sooner we can accept it and make peace with it, then we can come up with a plan. So I think that's a very powerful take home. I'm just taking a quick break in the

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And importantly, they offer a 100-day trial for new customers. So if you're not happy, you can send them back for a full refund. You can get your 20 off code by going to vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more so how do you maintain a routine what does it look like so what happens in that cell right is there an alarm clock does a prisoner come in the morning is it dark are there lights you know talk us through that you know we most of

us have got no idea what that feels like and then also explain to us what was your meticulous routine day after day so so this is this is how the situation looks like when you're in that environment in particular that hsu every 15 minutes on the hour a prison officer prison officer has to check on you so for the 24 hour cycle of a day every 15 minutes a prison officer has to visually see you so that you got this little book that follows you around it's called the book so when you're category a prisoner in prison they call it the book and the prison officer has to sign it and say that he's seeing you moving so obviously when you go to the part of the day where you're asleep, you're in bed,

they have control of your lights from outside your cell. And they used to have a red light at night, which they could switch on from outside. So they would open up your flap on your door, they would switch the red light on. If they did not see your chest moving under the sheets, they would bang the door just to startle you a little bit so you'd move and then they'd see you was in the bed then they shut the flap and walk off to the next one so that sort of situation that you're in in regards

being monitored um then how then i had to take control of my own situation was because again if i wanted to it was all choice and it was decisions I made I could have quite easily um sat in my bed all day bit slept just basically slept my prison sentence through just done really nothing took drugs um drunk illegal alcohol I could have quite easily if I wanted to do that watch um rubbish on the tv um that wasn't going to stimulate me um in regards of learning anything but I made decisions and choices and I knew from the first time I was in there that I was going to try to to better myself um and and sort of manage my time so I would I would wake up in the morning roughly around six o'clock off from myself so no one

would make me wake up i'd get up actually earlier than they would unlock you for breakfast so i'd get up i would do my cell circuit which would normally last for about an hour to 90 minutes then i'd go and have breakfast which you'd go to the little hot plate they'd walk you to the hot plate and you walk back to your cell um you would then have about 15 minutes to mop out yourself so normally like i used to like to keep it clean so i would sort of get the broom or take all the dust out i'd mop it um because they used to give us some bleach mop that you'd have that 15 minutes to do that then you'd then be locked up from about 9 a.m half past eight to 9 a.am to 12 12 30 then they would let you out for lunch then you'd get your lunch from the hot plate and you go back to your cell they lock the door you'd

eat your lunch in your cell and then you would then be allowed out at roughly around half past four or five o'clock for an hour and at that point they would let you use the phone or have a shower um and then you'd be locked up to the next day and that's basically your life for that was my life basically for nearly two years um now within that within that time when i was in that cell and i was awake that routine of doing that exercise in the morning to set me up in a good mind space would then set me up for the rest of the day to basically read books and just read and I would just I'd read anything I could really I don't I'm not really into fiction but um anything

that I'd access to reading I'd read and there was there was a lot of time where I'd be reading about my case before I went on trial um but then once I realized that was all over then it was just basically educational reading um to get me through that time period yeah john thanks for sharing that i mean it is i always get this when i speak to you i'm i'm literally just so absorbed in what you have to say because it's such a foreign life to anything i've heard about read about really seen you know you may have watched films or you know kind of netflix series on various kinds of things, but to really speak to somebody like yourself who's been there and done that, it truly is incredible. And there's so many things we can learn from that. I mean, one of the things you said was you had an option.

I could lie in bed all day if I wanted to. I could watch crappy TV, could get hold of drugs and alcohol. And you could pass your time like that. And I think there's an analogy. We also, in self-isolation, depending on our individual circumstances, have a choice. We can stay in our pyjamas till half ten, just watching the news, getting more and more negativity. We can choose to not do anything about the situation. We can choose to just numb anything about the situation we can choose to just

numb ourselves with box sets and Netflix and again I'm saying that with compassion right I get it for some people that's what they currently want to do and that's what they find the easiest path but I would ask people to really question is there another choice like you said John you could have done that but you chose to go no you know what I'm not going to do that I'm going to get stronger physically stronger and I'm going to get mentally stronger whilst I'm in here. And that is a choice that every single one of us at the moment has available to us, even if we're in dire circumstances. Again, I'm saying this with compassion, I'm saying this with sensitivity. Even if your life is tough at the moment,

we can still make a choice to do those little things, can't we, about our physical health and our mental health that you had to do? Yes, totally. Like, I wouldn't imagine there'd be many people listening to this podcast right now that would have been in the situation that I was in because you could look at it, my situation was fairly hopeless

I literally had no control over my environment so I didn't have the keys to the door and it was all just I'm not sort of trying to it was self-inflicted I put myself in that situation I've always accepted forward John I'm just gonna

I don't want to insult you but fairly hopeless I think is the biggest understatement of the year I mean I don't think anyone listening to your to this podcast right now has faced anything like that I would imagine certainly I would imagine it is like like I remember when I come back from court and I and I got the two life sentences and and like

it would it would I can't express to you how easy it would have been for me to get those two life sentences to basically just give up and go. Because at that moment in time, there was a lot of men in life doing life sentences in prison and they and they wasn't getting released from prison. They were just basically they were going to probably spend well over the minimum tariff of what the judge gave them to be in prison. the minimum tariff of what the judge gave them to to to be in prison um so you've got all that around you're seeing you're hearing these horror stories of someone that got life with a minimum tariff for 10 years and they've been in for 25 years um so it can be quite hopeless and there's a big issue within the prison system with people getting licenses and going past their minimum tariffs um and they become hopeless like they don't ever know when they're going to get released and they start taking drugs and they become depressed they develop mental health problems but I made again it

was a choice and it was the decision and I thought I'm not going to let this place beat me I'm not going to let the situation beat me I'm going to come out of this um a better better person I'm going to do something with my life and especially when when my friend died that was the catalyst and it made me even more determined but like i'm not right and i often say this i'm not some sort of um special breed of human being because i remember when i got to mind of my tariff um so when i served the minimum term that the judge said of the life sentences so he said i had to serve a minimum of five years off the life sentence before I could be eligible for release and I can't express to you in words how psychologically challenging what I'm about to tell you is so when I got to the end of my five years so when I

actually served bang on five years in prison I remember that night I went to bed and if I was doing a normal prison sentence, I would have been released that day, right? So I would have got out that day, they would have walked me to the gate and I would have been a free man like I was the first time. But when I got to that five years, I remember I went in my cell, I went to sleep, I woke up the next morning and I was still in prison and I did five years in one day and then I actually then realized how out of control I was of my situation in the regards of um of being ever being released from prison because now I was at the mercy of the parole board and of the system really like it was up to them when they let me out it didn't matter what i did

i i could only um i could demonstrate to them i was no longer risked to the public but then obviously now i was in this whole world of bureaucracy where parole boards got delayed reports didn't get put through on time that meant i ended up serving an extra three years longer than i was sentenced to because of all these mistakes that was made through bureaucracy like people lost reports parole boards got deferred and I remember then psychologically it got even more challenging for me and it was more it was like when's this ever going to end but what I did not stop doing I did not lose hope and I carried on training I carried on reading and I

carried on believing that my life would get better and I and I and I and I was determined that I wasn't going to let the situation overcome me and get the better of me but I knew eventually I would get out and I never lost that hope and I knew my situation would get better and I didn't want to fall into the trap where other people looked at the situation and it overwhelmed them and I was like I know I believe my life will get better and I will come out as a better person and I will be I will have a better life and because of that that got me through that extra three years um longer than than I actually should have ended up serving yeah it's you know the strong theme coming through is that you were controlling what you could

control you know there was a lot out of your control but you know the strong theme coming through is that you were controlling what you could control you know there was a lot out of your control but you know no one could take your body no one could take your mind you had full control of those things and so you made sure you did things each day that were getting those things stronger and i think what i feel because i like you i'm trying to put out positive messages on social media at the moment and on Instagram to really try and hopefully inspire people and keep them upbeat. And yes, we're out there, there are some big challenges, but there's a lot we can be upbeat about, I think. It doesn't mean that we're minimising how serious this is. I think you can be aware of the gravity of the situation, you can take sensible precautions, but you can also look for some of those positives as well. And, you know, controlling what you can control, I think is a really, really important message for people. Did you ever feel, John, like, you know, like you

woke up at six and you normally you did your circuits, but did some days, did you wake up and go, oh man, this is tough. I cannot be bothered today. I'm just going to lie here until they come and get me for breakfast. You know, were there days like that? And if so, how did you tackle with that? There was days where I just wanted to go home. Right.

There was days I woke up and of course, I would, you would look around and there'd be situations where like the routine in prison would be broken where there might be an incident and um you getting out for your breakfast at seven that morning was disrupted and you've been able to use the phone you could get out to use the phone at a certain time that you might have been used to doing um but i always remembered how good i would always feel after doing the session after and sometimes or a lot of the time when when I did feel like that and I did it I would always feel much better

than when I used to feel good and doing it because it made me feel like actually I'm still alive it makes me feel alive and I didn't realize about endorphins and feeling sort of amazing after exercising and training but every time I did make the effort and I did do it I always felt a lot better by doing it and I had to remind myself of that because did you always do it did you ever miss it yes I always did it because I because again I think it was it was the routine and breaking the habit and I thought if I'm keeping it this is the thing that's, it helped me survive this situation. And again, it gets you, and it does,

it makes such a profound difference to your whole outlook of your day. If you do a little bit of activity, and you don't need to be an elite level athlete to experience this, like if you just do a tiny little bit of exercise, a bit of physical activity, it just means you're walking up and down the stairs or going for a walk to the shops or spending that one day of exercise, a bit of physical activity, if it just means you're walking up and down the stairs or going for a walk to the shops, spending that one day of exercise, one hour, sorry, of the day outside of exercising and training, please, please do it. If it just means you're walking

to the shop and back, whatever it is, just keep being active, but keep that routine and keep the routine as much as you possibly can um brush your teeth in the morning and do your hair change into different sets of clothes that what you slept in have a shower do all these things that you normally do in your daily habits and know this isn't going to last forever it isn't going to last forever and that's so so important this isn't indefinite this isn't the rest of your life this is a very short period of time that this is we're going to be like this and eventually it will come to an end and we will have our lives back and again it's what you do now in these months or weeks or maybe even days you don't know but you can build a better life for

yourself once that play button gets pressed yeah and it's gonna you know that it's short term and long term it's going to help you feel better in that day like if you do like if someone's listening to this podcast right now and they're sitting on the sofa at home and they decide at the end of it all right you know what i'm going to go outside i'm going to have a workout in my front room whatever it is you're always going to feel better after that i mean no one no one ever said you know i really regret going for that walk outside or you know i regret that workout i just did you know very you know it always tends to make us feel but as you say it's movement tells our body that we're alive that actually oh we're moving you know things are good like you know it it does something so

powerful and as you say you didn't know about endorphins back then or all the the science you probably come across now but frankly you didn't need know. You just knew you felt better at the end. And one thing I've been saying to people recently in the media, but also on social media is about each day. And this is, you know, this is very much the framework that was in my last book. I'm basically telling people to say, look, each day, do something for at least five minutes on your mind, which is very much what you're saying. Each each day do something for at least five minutes on your mind, which is very much what you're saying. Each day do something for at least five minutes on your body, which is that sort of movement piece. But I'm also adding in, also each day do something for five minutes on your heart. And that's this whole thing about connection and the fact that we are in our houses now or our

flats or our apartments, and we can't maybe see our friends you can actually connect with your friends or connect with your community through technology like we're doing you know this is this in some ways it's going to be what i'm doing for my heart today because actually seeing you chatting with you i'm getting so much out of this this is connection would it be better if we were across the table together probably but i've got to say i'm feeling pretty connected to you at the moment even though it's through a computer screen so and and i genuinely believe john like you do that when you do these small things each day you send your you you know on a much bigger level it you you're telling yourself each day i am worth it i am worth giving myself this time

each day and i think in terms of self-esteem it is so so important even if you have a bad day or work's been bad or you know your internet connection was bad so you couldn't get on a zoom call with anyone or whatever your version of problems is in your life when you do these things every day you're telling yourself you know what i'm in control i've got enough self-respect to do these things each day and i think that's important right self-respect is a big part of this yes totally and like i said like keeping that routine and looking after yourself and presenting yourself in a nice fashion and just keeping that routine is so so important it's so so important to people because again it's very easy to start straying off the path of going to bed really late at night sleeping

in in the morning and then your whole day's disrupted then you think oh do you know what i can't bother to train now because it's one o'clock in the afternoon or two o'clock i can't be bothered now it's too late it's to keep that routine if it's following joe wicks's training in the morning at nine o'clock which a lot of my friends are doing i don't know a lot of teachers are getting their pupils to follow it and stuff if it's just that or finding finding workout videos online that you you enjoy the training teaching the videos whatever it is make sure at that time you wake up yeah you have your breakfast and then bang you do it and then you set your day off in a positive fashion yeah

i just thought that one of the other things that terry wait said in that article when he said whilst he was initially he was allowed his own clothes i think that changed after a few weeks or a few days but he said whilst i was allowed them every night i'd take off my trousers and i would put them under the mattress so they were getting pressed every night. And again, that was him showing himself self-respect. I'm going to effectively iron my trousers so every morning I could put on freshly pressed trousers. And he said his guards would laugh at him, couldn't believe he was doing it.

But again, the similar themes I'm hearing from you, John, similar themes I'm hearing from Terry Wake, people like you guys who have really dealt with isolation on a different scale to the sort of isolation that we're, and many of us are currently experiencing. And there are lots of these similar themes coming out. You know, look after yourself, present yourself properly, have a routine, move your body every day. You know, these are things that we can all learn from and i think it's so so powerful having you on sharing that experience john i wonder were there in all this

reading that you did were there particular books now that you remember reading that had a real impact i'm sure you read lots and lots of books in all that time but yeah there was there was one there was one that had quite profound impact on me um called the secret yeah it's about the laws of attraction and about you you project out um like you're like a tv antenna and what you project out will come back um so if you're a positive person you attract positivity back into your life you're a violent person you attract violent person violence back into your life and You're a violent person, you attract violence back into your life. And that had a massive impact on the way my perception was and how I was as a person.

So whatever I was, the way I presented myself would be what would come back into my life. So if I was negative, it would attract negativity into my life and I would attract negative people into my life. If I was a positive person outwardly, I would attract positive people into my life and I would attract negative people into my life if I was a positive person outward outwardly I would attract positive people to life hence why um when when when I read that book I I'm a great believer in people like Darren Davis the prison officer that helped me whilst I was in prison it was because my attitude changed I think Darren saw that uh and and I think that was one of the big key reasons why my life ended up or how it's ended up becoming

the way it's become today um that book had a profound impact on me yeah and there was another there was another a playwright called Jeff Thompson wrote which was kind of like an updated version of The Secret um it was about like um not reading certain sorts of newspapers about gossip, not watching, um, sort of, uh, not, not chat shows, uh,

but I don't soap operas negativity, watching things that aren't going to add and aren't going to help you grow as a person. Just bringing in negativity into your life, bringing into negative thoughts. Yeah. And then I still live my life like that today. I've not read a tabloid newspaper in over 10 years. Um,

I don't watch soap operas because I just try to basically have everything in my life as positive as it can potentially be. And not everything. Sometimes it is hard. I get that. It's very hard, but you do have choices about the people you allow into your life and the things that you let come into your brain. And I do try to keep that to a minimum. Again, it's the same theme John you're controlling what you can control right it's a theme that keeps coming up over and over again and you know I agree about the secret I you know I believe stuff like that when you you know you put out positivity it comes back on you you attract what you put out you know that's very much how I try

to live my life and everything I do I try and be positive I try and live my life and everything I do, I try and be positive. I try and behave with compassion because I think you do that stuff. That's what you will attract back. And for people who will listen, who are skeptical about that, I would say, I don't know what you would say, but I would say, aren't you going to live a happier life believing that anyway, whether it's true or not, isn't it just a nicer way to be? Isn't it just a more positive way to live your life and believing that? You know, what do you gain from being sceptical about that? No, I don't believe that. I'm just going to be a negative person because I don't believe in that. You know, who's the winner there?

Who loses there? Do you know what I mean? So I think I actually do believe that, but I know there's a lot of... I would say to anyone that, and I know some people are quite sceptical of it but if you look at my life pre and post and what I've done with my life since

I've changed my whole outlook and what my life is today that was purely based on those making those life choices and those decisions so like I wouldn't be we wouldn't be talking to each other now i'd probably still be sitting in prison with the same people i was with years ago um wasting my whole life sitting in prison cell but instead um i i i'm a professional

athlete i'm sponsored by nike i've traveled around the world i've spoken to thousands of children i've spoken at european parliament i've spoken at 10 Downing Street. Like my whole life is completely different because I made those choices and decisions. And I wanted to surround myself with positive people that wanted me to grow as a person and live a happy life. Yeah. And John, what you said about soap operas as well,

I think is so powerful. And it actually, it reminds me of the conversation I had with my mother literally yesterday. So my mum is 79 years old. She doesn't live far from me, but at the moment, you know, she's in that over 70 category. So she's meant to be, you know, keeping herself to herself for 12 weeks. You know, we're not meant to be going around and seeing her and interacting with her unless you really needed help for some reason. And it is challenging because I would normally go around several times a week and do stuff for mum and give her dinner

and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, we're finding a way as a family how to manage this whole self-isolation piece because of the virus. But I did say to mum about, you know, when I'd call her, there'd often be a soap opera on in the background. And I know mum likes

to watch them and I had quite a I wouldn't say a stern chat yesterday although it was a loving chat but I guess it might have come across as quite stern say mum look what are you going to do with this time you know are you going to you know basically just sit there watching soap operas I understand the temptation to do that but there are all these videos that and books that you've got that you want to watch you want you know you can use this one as an opportunity to really grow switch off from all the kind of gossip on those soap operas and actually use this for growth and you know I wasn't trying to tell her what to do I said mum it's your choice you can do but I said this is another option that's available to you is you could choose not to do

that and use this as an opportunity for growth and i i really like that john and this idea that you know we've got control we've got a lot of control over the things that come into our heads whether it's the news whether it's negativity and i love what you said you've not read a tabloid newspaper for 10 years i love you know you've been there you've been to the depths of what a human being might have to experience. Of course, other people have been to different depths, you know, we're not talking about a lot of people. And I know at the moment, things like domestic abuse and children's abuse, you know, people staying at home is causing a lot of problems. And those, a lot of women now

are getting abused at home when they could have escaped before to work. And I'm not making light and saying that no one else has experienced anything bad in their life or is not currently. But what I am saying and really why I'm so, so always amazed and fascinated by talking with you is that is this constant message of practical advice and positive advice. And I think we can all learn something from that. I hope so. Like I said, I'm not special. I'm not. And I don't think I am. And I just made choices.

I wanted my life to be better. And I really do believe people can take positives out of the situation. And like yourself, I totally understand um how bad some people have got it right now um i'm in daily contact with lots of teachers um people that work with really sick children and i know lots of them have been sent home because of the shortages of beds and hospitals um so i really do understand that not everyone is privileged to to have sort of the luxuries of life where you're comfortable at home but i would say to people that are listening to this all i ask you is ask yourself what could i do to help those people what could i do for my

next door neighbor the resources that i've got can i help someone else can i give someone else make this situation a little bit better for them and and I think overall you are going to feel so much better and and feel like we're all in this together and reaching back and helping lift other people up is so so important yeah because there are so many people that have got it so so bad um and it's how can we help those people get through this because we are are quite privileged, a lot of us. We're in very sort of affluent situations, living in nice areas where we can look at ourselves and go, can I do more? What am I doing?

Martin Luther King said it. The greatest question is, what am I doing for other people? And that is the question now. What are you doing for other people? And by doing that for other people and helping other people, it will make you feel so much better as well yeah i love that john john before we wrap up i did want to touch base i'm really i'm really enjoying following you on instagram always have done and uh if anyone's listening to this and doesn't follow john on instagram please do it's full of great messages

and positivity um but john you put a post up a few days ago and i think it was about nelson mandela and how much he trained in his prison cell and what do you just expand on that because again that is inspiring for those of us who still need a bit more inspiration and motivation i think that's really really going to hit the spot so to nelson mandela has had quite a profound impact on my life um so hence why i went so to go back when when i when i was in the segregation unit when i was in prison when i was a teenager um a lot of that stemmed back from a young mind that read a book and in the in the book about nelson mandela there was a passage for that he used to smoke cigarettes when he went to prison and the prison officers was using the fact that he

smoked cigarettes as as basically something they could take away from him so they were punishing him by retracting it the privilege so he thought if you're gonna try to use that as a way of punishing me I never smoke again and he stopped smoking cigarettes so in my mind as a young man I thought if you keep me in this room and you think this is a punishment I'll take it away from you so then I never left the room then for the next 365 days because I felt if they thought by putting me in there it was hurting me if I took that away from them and I then didn't want to leave that room they had nothing over me because that was the worst that they could do to me so obviously Nelson Mandela played a big part in my incarceration when I was a young man, like the way I dealt with that situation.

And I put up a post the other day. So when Nelson Mandela was in prison, he used to work in the quarry, breaking up rocks to make him into gravel. And four days a week in his cell, he would run for 45 minutes on the spot. Because again, it was his routine, the exercise and being active was the big part so even though he worked in a quarry breaking up rocks every day to turn them into gravel he would still go back to his cell four days of that week and run on the spot for 45 minutes because the exercise and the physical activity helped him get through 27 years of being incarcerated. And then you look at what Nelson Mandela come on to do, leaving South Africa, becoming one of the greatest world leaders has ever been in humanity.

And you just think to yourself, he spent 27 years in those conditions. Imagine the growth that you could potentially do in the short period of time that we're going to have now, you don't need to go through that massive 27 years of a journey, but it just shows you what can be achieved with mindset and what you can do with your life. Yeah. I mean, John, I've almost got a tear coming just hearing that. It is so profound. And it makes me think that let's say things change in the UK. And I appreciate there's lessons all over the world at the moment. But let's say that we get that one movement outside of day taken away from us. Let's say because it's a possibility.

I hope I really hope it doesn't happen, but it may happen. Just let's think back to that Nelson Mandela story in his cell on the spot jogging for 45 minutes a day. I mean, you know, that really shows all of us there is no excuse for us not to be active you know apart from the excuses we make in our minds you know because that's ultimately what it is all about is its mindset you know it's it's how we look at it up here that determines our actions and how you, and how we get out of the situation. But again, with Nelson, it's also, you know, like I said before, it's this is going to make you more resilient for whatever comes in the future. Who knows what the future is going to hold?

Let's say you're someone who has lost their job or is finding it very financially difficult at the moment. I feel for you. You know, I really, I think that must be incredibly challenging. difficult at the moment. I feel for you. You know, I really, I think that must be incredibly challenging. But whenever life does return back to normal, or even if it takes a long time for that to happen, the fitter you are, the physically strong you are, the mentally stronger you are, the more able you are going to be to adapt to that, the more able you're going to be to find a new solution to that. So I think what you're talking about John is universal for all of us and uh you know John I always feel that when I speak to you I come out of these conversations a better and a more enlightened person than when I started it so honestly I really feel this deep connection to

the way you put your story across the the authenticity the integrity with which you speak it really is incredible um I know people are going to love our conversation again just as much, if not more than the first time rounds. But John, as you know, it is called Feel Better Live More, this podcast. I always like to leave people with actionable tips at the end that they can think about applying into their own life immediately.

You've already mentioned a lot of them, but I wonder if you could just provide a brief summary at the end for people so they can really really take something out of this so i would say my top tips for every single person listening to this podcast right now would be remember this isn't going to last forever um don't lose perspective on the situation because there's a lot of people that are in far worse situations than us currently around the world keep a routine wake up roughly at the same time try to do at least 30 minutes a day of physical activity and use this time as productively as you possibly can so when the pause button turns into pressing the play button, that you move forth in the situation a much better person and use this time to evaluate your life before the pause button was pressed

to look at where you are today and where you want to be in the future and was you really happy before all of our lives got paused? And if you're not happy, what can you do now to help you leave and lead a better life when we press the play button when that comes in the near future yeah brilliant john really really great tips john thank you so much for your time i know you are training hard at home inspiring a lot of people as always and yeah look i have no doubt this will not be the last conversation we had i know we were planning to do the next one part two in prison so we're gonna make that part three we'll do part three in prison later this

year when we can move again when we can get together and yeah take care mate take it easy thank you mate you take care as well bye-bye everyone bye-bye that concludes today's episode of the podcast so what did you think i have say, every single time I speak to John, I am struck with his authenticity and his genuine desire to help people. Not once in either this conversation or in my previous conversation, which was episode 91, does he ask anyone to take pity on him. He takes full responsibility for the choices he has made in life, but also has made the conscious decision to completely turn his life around. So which tips are you going to take on board this week? I usually ask you to think about one tip that you can put into practice from each episode,

but I have to say John gave so many good ones there that are going to have real value at the moment. Perhaps this week you might choose more than one. I really enjoyed John's final words today, especially the thoughts that this period of isolation is not going to last forever and that we should try our best not to lose perspective. I also want to give a quick shout out to John. On Saturday the 11th of April, he's actually doing another one of his challenges. He's cycling on an indoor bike from Land's End to Jono Groats to raise money for the Trestle Trust, which helps with food banks. Please do support him and donate. He's trying his best to raise over £5,000 for this worthy cause. You can find the link by going to his bio on his Instagram page or by going to his bio on his Instagram page, or by going to the show notes section for this episode,

which is going to be drchastity.com forward slash 107, where you can also find links to his social media channels, his brilliant book, and other interesting articles about John and his life. Now do you remember, just as I said at the end of the last episode with Gabor Maté, looking after your health has never been more important than right now. It's not only going to help you in the short term, it's also going to help you be more resilient to the challenges that

we all face in the coming weeks and months. I know that for some of us it's hard to access books these days as shops are shut and Amazon sometimes have longer delivery times than usual but do not forget about audiobooks. All of my previous books are available in this format and the stress solution is proving to be a particular favorite with people at the moment and remember if you're new to audiobooks they can be downloaded immediately from providers like amazon and audible guys if you did enjoy today's show please do take 30 seconds to go onto your podcast app and give the show a review it is so so important the more reviews the show has the more prominence is given to it by providers like apple and like many of you I'm really keen for this positive content to reach as many people

as possible. But to do that, I really do need your help. Reviews are going to help. Of course, the good old fashioned way is simply telling your friends and family about the show or sharing screenshots on your social media channels can really help as well. I do very much appreciate your support. A big thank you to Vinata Chastji for producing this week's podcast and to Richard Hughes for audio engineering. That is it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure you have pressed subscribe and I'll be back very shortly with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the architects of your own health. remember you are the architects of your own health making lifestyle changes always worth it because when you feel better you live more i'll see you next time Thank you.