Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #112 The Secret to Ageing Well with Dr Dan Levitin

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

CAUTION ADVISED: This podcast contains swearing themes of an adult nature. Do you believe that we have control over how we age? Is mental decline inevitable? Or, does how we live now determine our later years? This week’s guest is Dr Daniel Levitin, a neuroscientist, cognitive psychologist and best-selling author. His latest book, The Changing Mind, is an enlightening read for anyone who wants to age well, live well and understand the science behind both. Dan and I discuss the concept of healthspan versus lifespan – how if you want to live to a ripe old age, you’ll want to be able to enjoy it, too. Amazingly, Dan’s extensive research has led him to conclude that the number one factor that predicts how well we’ll age is not, as you might imagine, genetic – it’s a personality trait. We discuss just what that personality trait is and Dan goes on to reveal three other important traits that govern our behaviours and how we respond to the world – and therefore how healthy and happy we are at age 8 or 108. The good news is, that these traits can be taught and it’s never too late to start learning - you can start cultivating your personality to be neuroprotective at any age. Dan is passionate that we can and should keep learning throughout life. He explains why it’s a myth that memory automatically deteriorates and outlines simple and easy changes we can all make that will enhance life right now, as well as promote a healthy and fulfilling old age. This is a really enlightening conversation – I hope it helps you on your way to a long, happy and healthy life. Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/112 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The number one factor that influences how you're going to fare at any age is a personality trait, a mindset, you might call it, of conscientiousness, which is a cluster of traits relating to stick-to-itiveness, reliability, dependability, doing what you'll say you'll do. That's the biggest single factor in terms of whether you're going to be healthy and happy at age eight or age 108. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. Hey guys, hope you're all well. Welcome back to another episode of the podcast. We're now up to episode 112. How on earth did that happen? It seems only yesterday that I launched and started this show. I'm really pleased with the feedback to last week's special compilation episode on sleep. So many of you loving the new and shorter format and many of you have fed back that despite having

already heard some of those conversations in the past hearing them again hearing those best bits in a tighter shorter format was really really impactful I think for all of us it serves as a great reminder that there are little things that we can do each day to improve the quality of our lives little things that we've probably heard about before, but often we forget. Life gets in the way. So I'm never scared to re-remind people on the podcast and re-remind myself of what those little things are. So yeah, delighted how many of you have improved your sleep since last week's episode.

I really hope that continues. have improved your sleep since last week's episode. I really hope that continues. Now, this week, we're back to the usual long-form format, and this one is a really, really good one. I recorded it back in February of this year in my house, in person, back when it was okay to meet people still face-to-face. Now, today's conversation is all about ageing. Now, we've been encouraged for a long time to think of old age as something that inevitably comes with decline. Decline in our mental capacity, our physical health, and problems with things like our memory. But is it really true? You see, recent studies have shown us that our decision-making skills improve as we age,

and our happiness levels actually peak in our 80s. So what is really going on? Well, this week's guest on the show is someone who I think is aging very well indeed. It's Dr. Daniel Levitin. Now, Dan has lived an incredible life, as well as being a neuroscientist, a cognitive psychologist and a best-selling author. He's also a musician and a record producer. I think he may well be living my dream life. Now his latest book The Changing Mind is a brilliant read for anyone who wants to age well, live well, and understand the science behind both. Now, we cover a lot of different grounds on this week's conversation. We dive deep into Dan's extensive research, which has led him to conclude that the number one factor that predicts how well we'll age is not, as you might imagine, our genes, but it's actually a personality trait which is absolutely incredible.

Now a key theme throughout the entire conversation is that it is never too late to put into practice a lot of the habits that help us to age well. Dan is passionate that we can and should keep learning throughout our life and he explains why it's a myth that memory automatically deteriorates and outlines simple and easy changes we can all make that will enhance the quality of our lives right now. Now Dan was actually not feeling very well at all during our conversation and to his great credit he still showed up and delivered. This is a really enlightening conversation. I hope it helps you on your way to a long, happy and healthy life. Now, before we get started today, I do need to give a quick shout out to some of the sponsors who are absolutely essential in order for me to put

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where you can go and order Zendium toothpaste today. Now, on to today's conversation. So Dan, welcome to the Feel Better Live More podcast. Thank you, Dr. Chatterjee. So Dan, how long have you been in London for so far? Almost two weeks. Two weeks, all to do with the book promotion? Yeah, well, not all London. I was up in Edinburgh and York and had a trip to Manchester a few days ago. And here you are back again.

Yeah, all to do with the book, yes. And how's the reception been so far? Well, it's been wonderful because, as you know, it's fun to go to meet people who are interested in the topic and engage in conversation. Every audience has different questions and different issues they're concerned about and it's a nice way for me to better understand what people are thinking about yeah for sure i mean i think it's a brilliant book the changing minds a neuroscientist guide to aging well so it's a great title and it's not finished at all yet there's so much depth in here that i think it's going to be incredibly helpful for people who want to age well and live well and understand the science behind it so that it's been very very comprehensive it's one of the things i've really enjoyed about

it thank you do you find it hard to apply the advice that you're giving in your book in your own life well that's a great question um No, I don't. I think one of the, I mean, I did make some changes in my life over the period of time that I was doing the research for the book. But no, the thing that is interesting to me is that you can move the needle, as they say, or you can tilt the balance of how you're going to age with relatively simple things, relatively simple changes. It's nothing that's out of reach of anybody. It's like, as you know, it's like just getting up and walking around the block a couple of times a day when you're otherwise sedentary. It's paying a little more attention to diet and to sleep, but not getting obsessive about it. So yeah, I found it easy.

Yeah, fantastic. You said not getting obsessive about it. Now, I think that's a good point to sort of start talking about the ideas in the book. Because health is a big deal these days, right? We're all talking about health. There's all kinds of blogs being written by all kinds of different people every day. Often there's conflicting advice there. So this whole idea of not getting obsessed about it, how important is that for how we feel about the changes we're going to make, but also how important is that for helping us to age well? Well, a couple of things about that. First is that to helping us to age well well a couple of things about that um first is that um when i say don't get obsessive uh part of it is that you know just looking at diet as an example

each new study that comes out uh tends to contradict the last study and if you were just reading all the headlines in the Daily Mail or something, you'd have no idea what you should be eating and what you shouldn't be eating. And what I try to convey in the book is that the way science works is that we move forward in fits and starts. We move forward, we move backward, and that really the currency in science isn't a single study. You may remember about a year ago, there was this study in Britain that burnt toast causes cancer. It was a single study, a single experiment with a small number of people. So as a scientist, I don't believe it. I don't believe it until it's done,

been done 10 or 20 times with different patients and participants and in different labs and by people who don't have a profit motive to do the work. And in the meantime, I just, I try to do what's reasonable. The second point I was going to make is that my doctor, I have a wonderful internist who's very attentive. We have a special relationship. I have his cell phone number, or I can text him if I need vindication or if I just want to talk. And we socialize together. It's a wonderful relationship.

We've talked a lot about diet because I have, in my family, I've got a family history of high blood pressure and heart disease and high cholesterol. And he's helped me to figure out how to keep my blood sugar more stable. I'm taking metformin, for example, which is completely an off-label use. I don't have diabetes, but it stabilizes my blood sugar. an off-label use. I don't have diabetes, but it stabilizes my blood sugar. In fact, I don't know about you, but everybody I know in science who's even peripherally related to aging or metabolism is taking metformin. Yeah, I don't, but I have been looking into that research, actually, and it's super interesting as to whether it could be an anti-aging drug.

Well, it's been on the market for 50 years. The side effects are relatively rare. They're benign. And it's one of these things where it probably doesn't hurt if you try it, and it may actually help because the newest idea, I wouldn't say it's risen to the level of a finding yet, but the newest idea is that Alzheimer's is, in part, correlated with deficient insulin signaling and too much pancreatic activity. And so the idea is that if you can smooth out your blood sugar levels somehow, either through diet and exercise or through a pill. I tried the diet and exercise, and I couldn't bring my blood sugar down, was the thing. Yeah. The other thing he says, which I think on the don't be obsessive idea, and I'd be interested to know what you think about this.

He says, you have to have fun. You have to enjoy life. He says, it's okay to have a French fry once in a while. It's okay to have ice cream once in a while. You probably don't want to undertake the French fries and ice cream diet, but you know, don't be, don't be crazy. Enjoy yourself. Yeah. Well, in terms of what I think about enjoying yourself, um, I think it's really important. I think it's super important. A, if you're going to age well, if you're going to live to a, to, to a ripe old age, you might as well enjoy yourself as you're doing it. But I also think if you look at the behaviour change science in terms of,

you know, making changes that people can actually stick to, you know, generally speaking, it's changes that people enjoy doing that they're going to stick to in the long term. So, we can say, oh, ideally you should do A, B and C. But if you don't enjoy A, B, and C, it might be challenging for you to stick to those in the long term. You may do it for a week or two or three weeks, but then things will flip off. So I think that's super, super important actually. I talk about the intuitive dieting movement and Mallory Frayne in my department at McGill is a graduate student who's been doing some work on this. And the idea is that if you deny yourself the things you really like, you're stressing out your decision-making system. And at some point you just cave in and you gorge. And so, you know, let your body be your guide about what you eat is intuitive dieting,

but be mindful that you don't want to be pigging out all the time, eat smaller portions. Yeah, and I think the chapter you've written on diet is really, really interesting. And we're going to come to that for sure. But if we just sort of step out for a second, take the 30,000 foot view. As a neuroscientist, why did you feel we needed a book on how to age well? Well, neuroscience has had this explosion of information in the last 10 years, much like genetics. And most of what we've learned hasn't trickled down to the average person. And I was thinking, I'm a neuroscientist, I want to read a book about the latest findings and how they apply to tilting the balance. Again, you can't ensure that you're going to live healthy and long,

but you can influence the trajectory of your life at any age. And so it was really just an attempt to share what neuroscience has learned. In genetics, for example, if you read a genetics book 10 years ago, a whole lot of what's in it is wrong. So, for example, identical twins don't have identical DNA. There are environmental factors, the environment of the womb, there's transcription problems. We always used to think, well, identical twins are identical genetically. They're not. We used to think that if your parents both have blue eyes, a recessive

trait, it's impossible for you to have brown eyes. Not true. So, you know, Adam Rutherford has written a book that catches people up on genetics. I try to bring in a little bit of genetics and neuroscience to help the average person make sense of what really is a complicated literature. Yeah. Well, I think it very much is needed. I think we all understand that, you know, certainly in the West, at least, we're living longer, generally speaking. But living longer doesn't necessarily mean we're living healthier and happier. And you do talk about that right at the start that you talk about lifespan versus healthspan. Yeah. So, I worked at the Salk Institute for a while on and off over the years and our former

director, Elizabeth Blackburn, who won the Nobel Prize for discovering telomeres, she makes this distinction, which I really like. It's obvious what your lifespan is. It's the amount of time you have from when you're born to when you die. But she divides it up into your health span and your disease span. And so the basic idea is for most of us, you're born and you're healthy and you run along with some ups and downs. You get the flu or maybe you get pneumonia, whatever. But you're basically running along most of your life healthy and then somewhere near the end you get really sick and that kills you and there's a lot of research and a lot of talk about extending lifespan not much about extending health span and it's a quality of life issue so

I think everybody needs to make the choice themselves for whether they'd like to live longer or better, and there are often trade-offs. But the idea is that I think we should be talking about maximizing health span, minimizing disease span, not just purely trying to increase the number of years you're on the planet. Yeah, and I think if you ask most people, trying to increase the number of years you're on the planet. Yeah, and I think if you ask most people would they like to live longer, generally speaking, people I think often say, I don't want to live longer because they associate old age with pain, with disability, with being immobile, with not being able to do the things that they want to do in their life. And that's why I think lifespan versus healthspan is so interesting why I think lifespan versus health span is so interesting

because I think the research is now supporting that it is quite possible that you might be able to live to 90 or 100 in really good health. And I guess you're trying to share the science, but also tips in your book on how people can do that. And you mentioned genetics. So I just want to sort of get this established right at the start of this conversation. Are some people just lucky? They're born with good genes, so they're going to age well. Or do all of us have the opportunity to do things that are going to increase the likelihood that we can also age well? Well, all is a strong word. If you've got a genetic disease that's fatal and it comes up early, I mean, there's often nothing you can do about that. But for the vast majority of us, genetics is not a prescription. It's not deterministic. It's probabilistic.

It's like quantum physics. It's a statistical tendency that you might be prone to cancer or alcoholism or heart disease or living a long, healthy life. And the choices that we make in three areas can really, there's a whole lot that's still under our control. Genes make up, depending on the trait or quality you're looking at, they make up between 7% and 50% of the variability in outcomes. That leaves a whopping amount that's under our control. And it's basically things like mindset, healthy practices, and then luck. You know, if you get hit by a bus and you get a concussion,

no matter how careful you were, that could happen and that will change things. I'm curious to know what conversations you have with your patients. As you know, I'm not a medical doctor. I'm just a simple country neuroscientist. So do you talk about quality of life and are there trade-offs in your patients where you have to say well look you can do this you'll if you do this it'll make you live happier but maybe not as long yeah look it i talk with my patients about a whole variety of different things so you know typically people will be in to see me with a specific problem. So, I wouldn't say that many people are coming in well saying, hey doc, what can I do to enhance and optimize my longevity? You do get it a couple of times, but it's not that common. So, typically the attention goes to what is that person suffering from? Now, my bias is that we over-medicate in medicine, we suppress symptoms a lot, and that often if we are careful with lifestyle interventions, you can make big changes.

Not just in terms of prevention, in terms of preventing getting sick, but often when people are sick, it can make a massive improvement in their symptoms and you know sometimes you know you can reverse things but I'm talking about giving patients a sense of agency over how they feel absolutely which is really important I think certainly in almost 20 years of practice I'd have to say that when a patient feels as though they can't do anything like they've just got this condition and there's nothing they can do about it, I just see, you know, you don't see that good outcomes there. People feel very disengaged in the process. I always want to give people a feeling that they can do something about it. Even if it's five minutes of meditation a day, it's going to help change their perception of it. But often what I do is when I talk to them about those lifestyle changes, I'll also explain

what that's going to do for them long-term. So yes, it's about helping them in the short term with their symptoms, but also I'll say, well, yeah, but this can also like, you know, sleep, for example. I spoke to Matthew Walker on the podcast maybe a year ago. He's terrific. Yeah, absolutely fantastic. And, you know, me and Matthew were talking about some of the research that is suggesting that sleep deprivation, chronic sleep deprivation can be causative in the development of Alzheimer's. Absolutely. And interestingly, there are many misdiagnosed cases of Alzheimer's, or somebody's got memory impairment, and they're simply sleep deprived. Yeah, exactly. So, if I had a patient who was struggling with their sleep and who also had a family member with Alzheimer's, for example, the conversation could

very easily be about the things that they can do in the short term to help. But I might also bring up some of that research and say, hey, look, you know, Alzheimer's doesn't just start, you know, the six months before you get it. It's probably been going on for 20 or 30 years in your brain beforehand. And chronic sleep deprivation is one of those factors. So, not only will you feel good in the short term, but you're going to help insulate yourself from potentially going down the path that your family member did. So, I guess that's the context of which I might bring it up. Is that what you were getting at? Yeah, that's terrific. Yeah, I'm really interested in that. And it sounds, I agree with you completely.

If I were a medical doctor, it would be, I'd be having the same conversations. Yeah, because for me, and I wonder if you subscribe to this, Dan, that it's often the things that we can do day to day that are going to help us feel good day to day are also the sort of things that are going to help us age well, right? Yes. Although there are some funny exceptions.

Yeah. So what are those exceptions? My favorite example of an exception is jogging. Okay. There's dozens of studies now that show that for every hour that you jog, you get an extra hour of life. So if you're jogging five hours a week, you're going to get five hours added on to the end of your life. It's a pretty robust finding. But if you unpack it a bit, if you step back and you say, I love jogging, well, that's a good tradeoff.

You're enjoying it in the moment. If you hate jogging, like I do, I like power walking. I can't stand jogging, well, that's a good trade-off. You're enjoying it in the moment. If you hate jogging, like I do, I like power walking. I can't stand jogging. Why would I want to spend an hour a day now to get an hour a day later at the end of my life when I'm, you know, possibly catatonic and drooling all over myself? It doesn't seem like the right trade-off. I'd rather have the hour now. If it was a two-to-one ratio, that'd be different, but it's not. So, I guess your approach is about giving people information and letting them decide what they want to do with that information. Absolutely. In fact, that's my whole thing through the last three books is that I wouldn't presume to tell anybody what to do

about anything. I feel that my job as a scientist is to just lay out what I know about the science of various issues, whether it's productivity and creativity as in the organized mind, or the science of trying to sort out what's true and what's not in the newspaper and in Facebook posts, the Field Guide to Lies and Statistics. And here, these are the trade-offs, these are the choices. You have to decide. It's a very personal thing. Yeah, and Dan, it's interesting. You're saying that as a neuroscientist, but I would echo that as a medical doctor. I actually don't believe it's my job to tell anyone what to do. Well, I appreciate that because a lot of doctors are paternalistic.

They are. And I fundamentally believe that you don't really connect and make long-term changes with someone when you are paternalistic and you tell them what to do. I guess going back to the book, because I do think it's really interesting. And there's quite a few things in there that I think people listening to this podcast can start thinking about applying into their own life, which is ultimately, I think the goal of you sharing that information with people. It's yes to educate them, but it's also to hopefully empower them to think, hey, I could start doing that, right? to think, hey, I could start doing that, right? So, let's actually go into that sort of granular, the nitty gritty of what it is. What is the number one thing people can do to help ensure that they age well? The number one factor that influences how you're going to fare at any age is a personality trait, a mindset, you might call it, of conscientiousness. That swamps all other

factors in terms of whether you're going to be healthy and happy at age eight or age 108. Now, think about it. Conscientious kids don't cross against the light, so they're less likely to get hit by a lorry. Conscientious teenagers and adults are less likely to end up in prison because they follow some marginal rules. Conscientious adults go see a doctor when something's wrong. They say, it hurts here, you know, and then, well, conscientious adults have a doctor, and they, at least in the U.S., their insurance payments are current, and when the doctor tells them to do something, they do it. Conscientiousness, which is a cluster of traits relating to

stick-to-itiveness, reliability, dependability, doing what you'll say you'll do, that's the biggest single factor. And although it's unevenly distributed throughout the population, some people have a lot of it, some people have none on the one extreme if you've got too much of it it becomes obsessive compulsive disorder you know compulsive hand washing or things like that um you can change that as well as any personality trait or mindset quality at any age it's never too early to start and it's never too late to start yeah and that's super interesting because when you talk about personality, because you're basically saying the number one factor that predicts if you're going to age well is how conscientious you are. And some people will hear that and think, oh my God, I'm not

that conscientious a person. So, that number one factor that Dan said, and Dan, that neuroscientist said, I don't have it. But what you're then saying is that you can change your personality. Well, you can. The whole field of psychotherapy is based on this idea. And although not all psychotherapeutic techniques work for all people, there's a bunch of studies coming out, uh, about behavioral change. Uh, just to take one example, cognitive behavioral therapy, uh, has been shown to be better at improving symptoms of depression and lack of conscientiousness. And it, this CBT is, is not used to lying on a couch and talking about your childhood

and, you know, your mother and the relationship with your mother. It's practical tools that the therapist gives you to help you reach the goals you said that you wanted to reach, sort of like your patients coming to you. CBT doesn't tell you what to do. They tell you how to do it. And it's been shown to be more effective than drugs, even antidepressants. And interestingly, perhaps counterintuitively, CBT alone is more effective than the combination of drugs and CBT.

But it's not just therapies, meditation, yoga, finding inspiration from literature or art or somebody that you've read about in the news who has made a change, maybe somebody in your family and saying, you know, I'm inspired by that, I'm going to do that. Yeah. Super interesting, isn't it? That conscientiousness is that number one trait and that it's something that you can train or work on, certainly. At any age. At any age, which is very encouraging. Now, when you were describing conscientiousness, I was thinking,

okay, so someone who's conscientious, they're not going to, they're going to wait for the green man to cross the road. They're going to go and see the doctor when they're sick. Are you talking about someone then who just follows rules? Because I guess, and I've read your previous book, and I know you talk a lot about creativity. And, you know, there's so many benefits to being creative and, I guess, challenging a lot of the assumptions that are already there in society and actually, you know, sort of navigating your way around that. Is there a clash there somewhere? Can you be someone who is highly conscientious, but is also very creative and willing to challenge

things? Well, I believe so. Do you see what I'm getting at? I do. Yeah. Because conscientiousness, although rule following is a part of it, it's not all of it. And there are cases where you really have to not follow a rule. If you're starving and you see a roll, I mean, really starving, you're about to die, and you see a roll left out on a table in a restaurant that hasn't been picked up yet, I would say you're morally and ethically justified to pick up that roll even though you didn't pay for it. There are all these kinds of thought experiments about ethics. I think that if you had the opportunity to murder Hitler, murder is supposed to be against the rules, but there's an argument to be made that that would

have been a good thing to do. I'm not talking about creative acts here. I'm talking about more practical ones. But I think of the people I know, Joni Mitchell is a good example, one of the most creative people I know. And she's very conscientious, although she breaks all kinds of rules with her songwriting and her painting. She's a wonderful painter. The way the conscientiousness shows up is she finishes what she starts. She'll spend months working on a single line of a song to get it just right. That's a kind of stick-to-itiveness. And she's happy to break rules in songs. For one thing, she doesn't use standard guitar tunings like everybody else does. She invents her own.

Interestingly, this is not well known, but the reason she did it is because she had polio as a child. She doesn't have full – I can tell you this because you're a guitarist, she doesn't have the full strength of her left fingers to be able to make conventional chords. For the most part, she can only play two strings at once, kind of like Django Reinhardt. So, she invents these tunings that allow her to basically take two fingers and move them up and down the neck. I would say that's an interesting case of rule-breaking and conscientiousness. Yeah, I mean, it's super interesting. That reminds me of,

I don't know if you heard of a band called Crowded House? Sure, Neil Finn. Yeah, Neil Finn. Love Crowded House. Yeah, they were one of my favorite bands in the 90s. I've seen them a few times play. Don't dream it's over. Yeah.

There is reason within. Yeah, exactly. There is reason within. Yeah, exactly. There is reason without. It's such a great track. Yeah. My friend Mitchell Froome plays the organ on it, the B3 organ. Oh, really? Da, da, da, da, da.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Well. It's amazing. This conversation could fast go down a track of music, which I'm going to go down for a little bit because I'm super interested. The B3 is one of my favourite sounds. I think out of all musical sounds, I absolutely love it. And when it's just sitting there in the background, it's just beautiful. And I think that Mitchell managed to get it as close to the timbre and the sound of

Booker T. Yeah. Booker T. Jones. I think he managed to get that sound, the Booker T. sound, green onions and all that. And it's hard to do. It's all in the drawbars and it's in the micro adjustments you make with touch. Yeah. I mean, he nailed it. It's, yeah. I mean, on Crowded House, what was rather in my head, based upon what we said about Joni Mitchell, is that I remember seeing an interview with Neil Finn once, and he's, you know, not verbatim, but he says something like, you know, we're a four-piece band. So, our limitations become our strength. So, he was all from certainly my interpretation of what I heard was that we're going to only record stuff or play live stuff that we can do, the four of heard, was that we're going to only record stuff or play live stuff that we can do, the four of us.

So we're going to have to create around that, rather than bringing in extra people to be able to play this part or that part or that part. It's the opposite of a Latter-day Beatles or Steely Dan approach. Yeah. They're a live band, like you two. Yeah, exactly.

And it's fascinating that Joni also, because she's got a limitation, that gives her some new creativity. Because if she didn't have that, maybe she would play in standard tuning. And therefore, she might not be as creative. Who knows? But it's super interesting. But I guess, Dan, we are talking about aging well and the brain. And you've written a book on music and the brain. So, I'm interested, does music play a role for us in terms of how we're aging? Well, yes and no. We now believe that 5% of the population are, sorry for a buzzword, but anhedonic for music, meaning they don't get pleasure from music.

And, you know, this just due to genetic variation or environmental factors, we see anhedonia, failure to receive pleasure in many domains. Some people don't like chocolate. Some people don't like sex or being touched. Some people don't like music. But for the rest of us who do, or being touched. Some people don't like music. But for the rest of us who do, there are some interesting connections between music and aging, some of which are well known. If you've got Alzheimer's or extreme dementia, and you no longer recognize where you are or who your friends are, you don't recognize yourself in a mirror. In many, many cases, are, you don't recognize yourself in a mirror. In many, many cases, you still recognize songs from your youth. They're preserved. And this is not just kind of a cool fact. It's an essential part of adults living with cognitive impairment in relaxing them or causing them to be less

agitated. Imagine what it's like. If you look in the mirror, you don't recognize who it is. You were put in some home or facility after your memory impairment started, so you don't know where you are. You don't recognize the caregivers who come in every single day. And often we see in these patients, as you well know, a great deal of agitation and anger. And of course, they're angry. They don't know where they are. But you put on the headphones, the earbuds, whatever, you play them a song from when they were 14 years old, they suddenly reconnect with themselves. There's home. There's something in their memory that they recognize, and that's who

I am. This is something I can get a hold of. And we find that in these cases, the patients as well as their families are tremendously relieved. Now, that's sort of an extreme case of music. A less extreme case that's not as well known is that older adults who start to learn an instrument, or if they already play a new instrument, that learning is neuroprotective. One of the many myths that I try to bust in The Changing Mind is that you can't grow new neurons after a certain age, or you can't make new neural connections. Neuroplasticity, the buzzword for making new neural connections, new synapses, that goes on your entire life.

And the more you can learn, especially new things, the more neuroprotective it is because you're building up neural and cognitive reserves. So- That could be anything though, right? You just learning anything, whether it's music or sport or- Absolutely. You know, but- A new language. So, this sounds like one of the key things we need to be thinking about as we get older is what keep trying new things.

Yeah, and in particular, there's this new appreciation for what we call embodied cognition. Barbara Tversky and Scott Grafton both have new books out about this. Scott's is called Physical Intelligence. Fantastic books. The idea is that your body actually helps your mind grow through the experiences you have manipulating your body. So, learning a new language is neuroprotective, but learning something that involves eye-hand coordination, musical instruments being one, not so much singing, but playing an instrument, or taking up tennis or ping pong or, you know, anything that involves this kind of body

intelligence. Very powerful is simply going for a walk on an uneven trail. As you probably know, some Scottish doctors are now writing prescriptions for their patients. Go for a walk outside. It's because as you're walking on an uneven surface, your foot and your ankle and your legs and your vestibular system are making dozens of micro adjustments every minute. You have to change the pressure and the angle and you have to get feedback about what's happening so you don't fall over.

And it's hugely important. So would you say that you know would you therefore not be recommending as people age that they work out in a gym on a treadmill or on an exercise bike or can you do a bit of both well you can certainly do a bit of both uh i've i mentioned at the beginning of our conversation i've changed a few things in my own life one was I didn't know about sarcopenia. As I say, I basically know about stuff from the chin up and a little bit of spinal cord. But sarcopenia is to muscle what osteoporosis is to bone. And so I've started doing

resistance training. I go to the gym. I'm not trying to bulk up like Arnold Schwarzenegger, but I do a round of 20, sorry, 12 different weight machines just to keep my muscles going. I spend about 40 minutes there four or five times a week. Jane Fonda has started, told me she started doing the same thing. Do you enjoy it? I do. I do.

I can't, I couldn't tell you why, but I do. And I also do the elliptical because I'm trying to get my heart rate up and I do what's called high intensity interval training. But better than both of those really is the difference between sedentarism and moving outdoors. If you only do one thing, you should move outdoors. But yeah, adding the others is great. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's great because there's a lot of information we're giving people and sometimes getting too many things to do, too many things that are great to do

can sometimes seem a bit overwhelming. You have to prioritize. Now, if you're in a wheelchair, get somebody to take you out. The visual stimulation of being in nature is neuroprotective, not as much as if you're walking. And if you can push your own wheelchair, even better. Or a walker. Yeah. Now, Dan, you've got a long history in music, haven't you? You're a music producer as well?

Yes. Yeah. And recording engineer. And I heard you on an interview recently talk about you had the opportunity to meet Sting once, and you scanned his brain. So, I'm interested, you know, Sting, I don't know how old Sting is, but- He's a few years older than me. I'm 62. I think he's 67-ish.

Yeah. So look, I haven't seen a picture of Sting for a while, but the last time I saw him, certainly there's no way I would have guessed that he was in his late 60s. It's clearly someone who seems to be aging very well. So Sting has a lot of practices, certainly that come across in the media

that we read about. How many of those are true? That I don't know. But when you- The tantric sex is not true, for example. It's not true? No. Okay. Do you know what he does? I do. I do. He had read This Is Your Brain on Music and he reached out to me at some point in 2007 or 8 and said he wanted to visit the lab and meet me and talk about the findings. And so he came to Montreal and I said, you know, while you're here, if you want, we can

scan your brain and we can, you know, see what it looks like. It wouldn't be an actual study. I guess it's a case study, but not a proper experiment. And he was into it. And, you know, we found that his corpus callosum is thicker than most people's. That's the fiber track that connects the left and the right hemisphere. And we often see thicker corpus callosi in people who are very creative, who are shuttling information from the left to the right hemisphere. We learned some things about how he organizes music in his memory that were quite novel we published a paper about it scott grafton and i the embodied cognition guy in a journal called

neuro case it's available for free on my website as all my peer-reviewed papers are okay great and we'll link to all of them as well in the show net section so people can easily find that uh i mean it is a article written for other scientists, but I think that the average person could glean the punchline from it. And then we kind of got along well, and he invited me to come and tour with him and the police reunion tour for a few shows. You've got to be kidding me. It was terrific.

Oh, wow. And so I did get to see what his life is like. He does yoga every afternoon. He has, you know, for at least a couple of hours, sometimes four. He earmarks alone time apart from the yoga to either practice something musically or learn a new song or write something just to experiment around. He gives himself time to play every day when he's on tour. And then the other extraordinary thing was, we were talking about conscientiousness.

I've never met anybody with the work ethic that he has. And, you know, I'm a professor. I know a number of Nobel Prize winners. Most of the professors I know are workaholics. We work 75, 80 hours a week. That's nothing compared to what Sting does. He is working all the time. He enjoys himself, but his work ethic, just to give you an example, I asked him, how is it that you play bass and sing at the same time? I'm a bass player. That's very difficult to do. I could only think of three people who do that. I think we can agree that it's hard to do because it's not like strumming guitar, finger picking, where everything's in sort of lockstep time. Bass parts tend to be syncopated.

You're not always singing when the bass hits a note. You're sometimes singing in between notes and in odd integer ratios. And so, just as a demonstration of work ethic, I said, how do you do it? He says, well, he says, when I know that I'm going to go out on tour and I'm going to have to play these songs in the studio. Yeah, you can track it differently. Yeah, he played the bass first, he sang second or vice versa. If he's going to have to do it live, so he writes out on a piece of paper the lyrics and the chords or the notes and he writes a kind of visual map for where the vocal note

is versus the bass notes. Sometimes they're synchronized, sometimes they're anti-phase. And then he'll sit down and he'll practice one measure at about one-fifth the normal tempo. And he might do that for half an hour, that one measure. And then he'll put it away and go to another song, and the next day he'll come back and he'll add another measure. And he says it could take him six months to work up a tune at the proper tempo. And I thought, oh my God. Yeah. Is it a bit like, you know, some, again, I'm not trying to compare the two,

but just to sort of make it really relevant for people at home who maybe are not musical or don't play the bass and never try to play the bass and sing at the same time you know like i'm sure it's the same in america we have the thing where you have to try and um patch your stomach and sorry you know put your hand around your stomach and patch your head at the same time which some people find quite hard to do unless you but i think most people when they focus on it and practice- Well, it requires what we call limb independence. Yeah. So, is there something similar to that that's going on with Sting when he's trying to just teach him, maybe not limb independence, but, you know, voice and hand independence?

Yeah. And we find this in a lot of activities. Flying an airplane requires limb independence. You're using both feet, you're using both hands. One of the things I did in order to adopt the advice that I gave others in the book is that I realized I had to push myself out of my comfort zone. And so, I took flying lessons and studied for my private pilot's license. Because it is very complicated. It's not like playing drums. You're doing this to help you age better i did yeah yeah uh and um you know because it's a new skill and it's it's sort of taxing your brain you and your brain's having to fire up different neurons is that in a nutshell

what it is it's exactly that it was taxing my brain in ways i hadn't taxed it before not only that but i'm terribly afraid of heights. And so, it was a way for me to get some agency over my own feelings in life. I mean, I find if we just go back to Sting for a second, what I find really interesting is you started off talking about Sting and saying that he makes sure he does some yoga every afternoon, sometimes for two hours, sometimes for three or four hours. He ensures that he's got some time alone. And then you follow that up by saying he's one of the most, if not the most productive and conscientious people you've ever had the opportunity to meet. And so, a lot of people, that won't make sense. It will be like, hold on a minute,

how can he be conscientious and hardworking when he's got time to do yoga in the afternoon and he's got time to spend an hour by himself each day? Unless, of course, those are things that help him be productive and conscientious. there's always this tension that I, like you probably, I'm way behind in my work. I'll never catch up no matter what I do. And I always feel that if I take 15 minutes off, I'll fall 30 minutes behind. And so when I wake up in the morning, do I go to the gym and basically lose 45 minutes? Well, for me anyway, if I do, I gain that back later in the day in terms of productivity. I get more done in an hour of work if I've had that. And Sting must have worked out that these things help keep him on an even emotional keel and help inspire him to do his best. You know, the whole Sting story reminds me of something else that maybe your listeners will be interested in. I saw this fantastic magic trick. It was the signature trick of a guy named Glenn Falkenstein who's passed

away. And I saw it several times. And what he does is he goes into a room, you know, it's to a room, you know, it's usually a concert hall or a venue, and he's on the stage, and his assistant puts some silver dollars over his eyes and then wraps them with plastic and then puts on some sort of thing to block his vision even more. And then she goes out in the audience and she asks somebody to, without saying what they're doing, pull something out of their pocket or their purse or off their table and hold it up. And so I was a participant in this a couple of times. I love this trick.

One time I pulled out a credit card, and she says to him, okay, this person is ready. Do you know what he has? And Glenn says, well, it's a credit card. And she says, okay, what else can you tell us about it? And he says, well, it's a visa. It's she says, okay, what else can you tell us about it? And he says, well, it's a visa. It's not a MasterCard or a diner's club or an Amex. She says, what else?

Can you tell us anything else? He says, well, it's the Chase Bank. And she says, okay. And she says, and now I'm wondering if you can read off the numbers, the 16 digits. And he does, in groups of four. After each one, she says, keep going, or that's right, what's next, these kinds of things. Now, I imagined that this was a super high-tech trick, that she's got a hidden camera in her hand, and the reason for all of this stuff around his eyes that he's got some kind of a screen or maybe he's got an earpiece and somebody is talking into his ear.

He can read off the serial number of a dollar bill. People pull out a lipstick. He can tell you it's an Estee Lauder and it's this color and it's amazing. And so right before he retired, I asked him how he did the trick. And of course, magicians aren't supposed to tell you, but he had retired. He worked on that trick with this assistant for five years. Everything she says is code. When she says this person's ready, that means it's a credit card. She says, are you ready to start? That means it's a bill of some sort. If she says, okay, let's go,

that means it's a piece of silverware. It's the most elaborate code you can imagine. And they memorized it. It took them five years of working on this two hours a day. But in the end, it's a marvel of conscientiousness and work ethic. But in the end, they had this amazing trick that nobody can figure out. I mean, it's incredible to hear that. It's incredible to hear the capacity of the human brain. It's incredible to hear that story, Sting's story, and just think how hard and how dedicated some people are to mastering their craft. And then I'm always thinking about how can I bring that back to someone who's out on a run at the moment,

who's listening to this, who maybe liked the title of the podcast, thought, oh, how I'm going to age well. And then what can they take from that into their own life? And I guess it's, as you said right at the start, you know, the number one trait that's going to help you age well is conscientiousness. So, I guess, can you finish a task you started? And can you, and can, not only that, but can you do the best possible job you can? Can you do not just good enough? Can you try to push yourself to do more, to do better? Can you, can you grow in whatever it is that you're doing? If it's keeping a garden, if it's cooking for yourself and your family, if it's choosing vegetables, learning which ones to choose at the market so you get the most flavorful and healthy ones with the most nutrients,

any area of a human endeavor where you can learn and keep learning is what's neuroprotective. And it's fun. It is fun. Yeah. It's curiosity, really, which is a separate trait. It's number two on the list after conscientiousness. People who are curious do better in life. Worthy hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Just taking a very quick break to give a shout out to the sponsors who are essential for me to put out weekly episodes like this one. Athletic Greens have always been a big supporter of my show and I really, really like this company. They make one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that I have ever come across. Now, when we think about aging well, nutrition plays a key role. And yes, I do prefer people getting their nutrition from whole foods. But the reality is that for many of

us, it really is a struggle to do that consistently. That is why I am a huge fan of high quality whole food supplements like Athletic Greens. And I actually regularly take Athletic Greens myself. And I know many of you who've taken advantage of their offer already for my podcast listeners have fed back to me saying that since you started taking it, so many things have improved like your energy, your cognition, and even your sleep. Now, Athletic Greens contains vitamins, minerals, prebiotics and digestive enzymes and I actually really love their little travel packs which often accompany me whenever I'm on the roads or on the move. So if you're looking to take something each morning as

an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs I can highly highly recommend it. For listeners of the show, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you will be able to access a special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around £70 with your first order. You can check it out at athleticgings.com forward slash live more. So, conscientiousness and curiosity, the two C's of aging well. Right. And, you know, with this book, like all my other books, the version of it that got published

was roughly version 52. That is, I wrote the manuscript, I went back over it and rewrote it entirely 52 times. I've never published anything that I had fewer than 12 revisions on. Those tend to be short articles or scientific papers where there's a formula, but for the books or for the New Yorker articles or things like that, it's always 40 or 50 drafts. you know there's a formula but for you know for the books or for the new yorker articles or

things like that it's always 40 or 50 drafts and i have this friend named mike lankford who is is i the best writer i know he published a wonderful book that i think you'd like called life in double time okay about his uh early years as a drummer in a touring band that nobody's ever heard of. But it's hilarious and insightful. And then he wrote another book, which is both of my favorite books of all time. The other one is Becoming Leonardo. It's a biography of da Vinci. It's so much better than Walter Isaacson's bio, which came out at the same time.

much better than Walter Isaacson's bio, which came out at the same time. And I said to Mike, your books are so amazing. How many drafts for Becoming Leonardo? He said 75. Yeah. He worked on it 10 years. That's a masterpiece. It couldn't be any better. I have much to learn. And I guess all of these stories, whether it's your friends there or yourself, just the act of you writing this book, forget about your other ones for a minute, just this book and doing 52 or so revisions, that is conscientiousness, that is dedication, that is actually, I guess, helping you to age well. Well, and it's curiosity. I'm curious to know what I age well well and it's curiosity i'm curious

to know what i can do to make it better i'm curious to know if there's a you after our conversation i'm going to go right take notes because i get a chance between now and the paper back to do another few revisions yeah and in stimulating conversations like this i always think well there's probably something I can take and change it for the better. And it's interesting. I mean, as we record this, Dan, I mentioned just before we went on air,

my 100th episode of this podcast has probably gone live whilst we've been chatting. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. It's again, something that started off as an idea just over two years ago. Yeah, episode 100 goes up. One a week.

Yeah, pretty much one a week. I have taken August off the last two years ago. Yeah, episode 100 goes out. One a week. Yeah, pretty much one a week. I have taken August off the last two years because, you know, for me, I've got two young kids. They're off in August. I want to just switch off and be able to spend proper quality time with them when they're off school. So, you know, I've done that the last couple of years. But what's interesting for me is the feedback we get,

the way it's grown so rapidly. And the fact that people say, look, each week it's such varied guests. I'm learning new things. It's making me think about my life in a different way. I can't wait for the next one. I'm really curious for what's coming next. So, I guess I'm thinking, or I'm certainly hoping that actually people who listen to this podcast each week with that curiosity, maybe in some way this is helping them to age well. Oh, I hope so. I believe so. If you can remain curious and learn new things, that's neuroprotective. It doesn't mean that you won't get Alzheimer's or that you can reverse it or slow it down, but it does mean, based on the research, that you may get it and nobody would

notice it for years because you've built up this cognitive reserve. Think of it this way. If you go to the gym and you can bench press 200 kilos, on a bad day you could still do 50. I can't, but you've got some muscle reserve. Same thing with the brain. You build up this reserve through doing new things, whatever they are. Just to bring this full circle, the other third quality that we can all work on is gratitude. Yeah. As you know, I had the opportunity to meet with the Dalai Lama in doing the research for the book. And he meditates on gratitude and compassion two to four hours every day. And he believes the real secret to happiness, not necessarily longevity, but happiness

is to embrace gratitude. If you're happy for what you have, and you're not focused on what you don't have and feeling slighted or carrying around anger and such and how come so-and-so has a tesla and i don't or you know so-and-so got promoted and i didn't so-and-so spouse is better looking than mine all of that stuff throws our brain into a kind of fear mode it activates the amygdala it releases cortisol cortisol. But, you know, Warren Buffett agrees. The idea of experiencing gratitude. My grandmother was an immigrant to the United States from Germany, a Holocaust survivor. She escaped the Nazis. And she had written out on a piece of paper uh the things she was grateful for yeah and she recited them every morning when she woke up and every night before she went to bed she was not religious but

we were talking about how you could affect change and we talked about meditation and medication and psychotherapy another thing that works is religion all the world's religions teach you that you can change yourself you can become yourself. You can become more compassionate or generous or more tolerant or express more gratitude. So, she had this list, and she told us that every day she woke up, she told me and my mom around the time she was 79, that she sang God Bless America every morning. God bless America, written by another immigrant, by the way, Irving Berlin, another Jewish immigrant. And she felt that it was her purpose to do that. She had to express gratitude that her family was saved. So, for her 80th birthday, my mother and I bought

her a little $80 electronic keyboard, and I got pieces of masking tape and put them on the keys to play the song, and I put numbers on them. So she'd know what order to play them in. And she loved it. She'd never played an instrument before. So she's doing one, two, three, four, five, six, you know, like this. And then by the time it was her 81st birthday, she had lifted the masking tape off and was playing it from memory by her 82nd birthday she'd worked out a rudimentary harmony with the left hand she kept improving she did this every single morning and every night before she went to bed until she died at 97 and we found the keyboard on her bed table. Wow. You know, it's an amazing story that, and if I'm honest, Dan,

I'll tell you what popped into my head as you were telling me that. My mum lives really nearby. She lives by herself. That's my dad died almost seven years ago. And, you know, recently mum got admitted to hospital, literally just about maybe 10 days ago. She had a slip on the side of the bed.

She couldn't get up herself. She was by herself for seven, eight hours. And she was in for a night. She's come out. I've moved her downstairs. I brought some things down for her. And, you know, helping. I stayed a couple of nights where they're trying to just get her settled into being back at home.

But as she was telling me that story, I thought, you know, mum's been an amazing singer her whole life. Upstairs, so mum came over from India. She's a brilliant Indian classical singer. She's got a harmonium upstairs. What part of India? Calcutta. Oh, yeah. So, she's got a harmonium. And I'm thinking, Rangan, you should go after this conversation, nip round, get the harmonium and bring it downstairs and put it in a bedroom yeah because ultimately that's something that gives her joy gives her pleasure something she'd be incredibly grateful for and i mean i know we're not here to talk about that but i'm just sort of sharing openly and honestly what that was triggering for me it's like i love that i can go and do that. Literally after this conversation,

I could go and do that. And I wonder what will happen, but I'm pretty sure that will give mom a sense of meaning and enjoyment and just a bit more agency over, oh, you know, this is something I enjoy doing. Do you know what I mean? That's going to help her rage well, right? Absolutely.

You know, this thing about agency is well known in the research community, but not so much in care facilities. There was a famous study about this where people in an old folks home, in inverted quotes, were given a potted plant. And half of them were told that a staff member would come by and water it and trim it and they didn't need to do anything. half member would come by and water it and trim it, and they didn't need to do anything. The other half were told, you have to water this, and you have to cut off the leaves. It's your responsibility. And then they simply waited a couple of years and looked at outcomes. How many people had falls? How many people died? How many people ended up being admitted to the hospital? And the ones who had this sense of responsibility and agency with something as simple and trivial as watering a plant where you did did twice as well as the ones who didn't that is incredible

and that makes me think for you know for some of our elderly population who need help is there a danger that we sometimes give them too much help absolutely because absolutely this is something i've been um if that's this is literally a conversation i had with my mom two mornings ago i went around to give her breakfast um and i actually thought literally five days ago or a week before that mom was getting her own breakfast every day and And if I start coming around every morning or someone does and start giving her breakfast because I want to help her and care for her, am I potentially conditioning her to needing that care? And actually I said,

this is exactly what I said, I said, mum, I think you get your own breakfast. I can come and watch you or sit with you whilst you're eating if you want. And actually the last two months, she's just gone and done just that. So I think there's something interesting there, isn't there, about our desire to care for people, but sometimes we might be doing them a disservice by doing too much potentially. You're absolutely right. It's what's called learned helplessness. Yeah. This is interesting, really interesting. Yeah. My aunt, who I write about in the book, my mother's sister, it's a tragic, tragic story. She had come over from Germany in 1939. And she married a man who was 15 years older than she. This was back a long time ago. She was, I think, 15. And he was 30.

They were from the old country. You did that back then. And he did everything for her. He doted on her. And she never had a checkbook. She never paid any bills. He made all the decisions for the family, and he pampered her. Well, when he died at age 80, and she was 65, she had no sense of agency. And she very quickly went into a downward spiral. no sense of agency. And she very quickly went into a downward spiral. And she passed away a month ago at the age of, I think it was 93, having spent from 65 to 93 in a catatonic state. She couldn't communicate. People were having to do things for her. She could not make up her mind

about anything because she had learned to be helpless. And no amount of therapy or cajoling could fix it. It may also be that she was emotionally crushed at losing him. It's hard to say what the factors are. But this, of course, one needs to temper this allowing people to do things to themselves with reason and prudence. Yeah, of course. So, my grandmother, before we had to put her in a facility, was doing her own cooking, but she would forget to turn the burner off. And she had set fire to the kitchen a couple of times, you know.

And her hands were shaky, and she'd cut herself with a knife. So, my mother would go over and cut the vegetables and then we got her a hot plate with a timer on it. So it wouldn't stay on too long. Right. But you know, there's a balance. I'm certainly not at all suggesting that we shouldn't be caring for people

and giving them assistance. It's just, it's worth us all considering that anyone who is in a caring role, I guess it is worth just considering, keeping the back of your minds, you know, are we doing a little bit too, you know, are we making sure that they're maintaining independence as much as they can? There's an interesting overlay here with what I do for a living now, which is that I helped to

found a new university in San Francisco called Minerva. And we run our classrooms very differently than almost any other university program in that our undergraduates, we don't teach them anything per se. We don't tell them what books or articles to read. We tell them what questions we're going to ask in class, and they have to figure out themselves how to teach themselves what they

need to know. They work with each other to test their understanding of things, and the teacher becomes kind of a coach or a, I guess, a conductor. And because they're helping themselves, we're not giving them everything on a silver platter they become lifelong learners they have a sense of agency and curiosity and responsibility for their own education and knowledge which has been a huge change in the way people run universities yeah i mean you you're doing that at a university level now as a father of two young kids mine mine are nine and seven, I'm thinking about the education system and thinking, you know, not in every school, of course, but there is a big exam pressure in a lot of schools from a very young age, which is putting a lot of stress on kids.

A lot of people are being schooled to do exams so they can get into a certain school. So, they're getting trained for the types of questions going to be asked, how to answer those questions well so they can achieve the right score to get into the right school. And I understand that. But what you're presenting seems to be saying, well, hold on a minute, are we actually potentially doing them a disservice by doing that? Because if we want to encourage lifelong learning lifelong curiosity is teaching them how to answer things so they get the right mark for that particular paper for that particular school is that going to help them in the long term be lifelong

learners and and i must be honest part of me is feeling it's probably not the best thing that we could be doing for them. I'm with you. And, you know, I won kind of a lottery in terms of genetics and culture and opportunity and family in that I was raised in a household where my parents valued reading and learning. And they taught me to learn at a young age. And my grandfather, who was an MD, starting when I was six, he would bring over these little science experiments that he had gotten in the mail, where I'd learn about magnetism or optics or gears. And, you know, you can tell somebody to memorize what, you know, if you have a small gear versus a large gear, which one do you want to turn to move a heavy object?

But if you experiment with it yourself, you quickly learn it's the large gear or, you know, optics, magnetism, all these things. He taught me to teach myself. And I have to say, I don't consider myself to be particularly intelligent i've just had all these great mentors and experiences that unfortunately other people may not have had and i'm all for figuring out how to give everybody these kinds of experiences yeah dan i would i would absolutely echo that myself myself. And it's a theme that's come up before on this podcast is this whole idea of, you know, often what we're exposed

to as kids is what we deem is possible in the world, what we think we might be able to achieve. You know, I've said before that, you know, I was surrounded by doctors. My dad was a doctor. All my mum and dad's friends were doctors. There was at least one doctor in that family. And so, I grew up around that. So, I don't think it's any huge credit to me that I actually went to medical school and became a doctor because that was my norm. And I've become acutely aware of this. You know, I've worked in some very deprived areas of the country as a doctor. When I was making this BBC documentary series called Doctor in the House, I went and lived alongside people all over the country with very different, you know, in very different areas than where I live. And, you know, I really would see that actually, depending on where you live,

depending on what you're exposed to, that absolutely plays a huge role in determining where you end up in life. Of course, it's not like a, it's not, it's not definitive. You can absolutely break out of that. You know, you can have people with great upbringings and great opportunities. And they become serial killers. Yeah. Or they don't take advantage of it and they flunk out or for whatever reason, or, and vice versa, people can break out of poverty, let's say, and go and achieve amazing things. So. Well, that's, that's the interesting. At Minerva, we decided that, I mean, we realized that intellect and ability is not confined to the wealthy.

And so, our policy is to admit anybody who meets our requirements, and we pay 100% of their tuition and living expenses if they can't afford to or their families can't afford to. And one of my favorite stories about a Minerva student is a girl, a woman now, who came from rural China. Her parents, it was the one child per family law, and her parents did not want a girl, and they let her know from the very beginning that she was not wanted. They were farmers.

her know from the very beginning that she was not wanted. They were farmers. They didn't have access to anything like a good education. But she somehow had the bug to read and learn. And she managed by the time she was in secondary school to get to, I think she had to take a mule or something to this school that was 20 miles away every day. Nobody from her village was going there except she. And then she got admitted to Minerva, and she graduated last year, and now has a job at one of the big creative companies in the U.S. She's working for Uber, and she had done internships at Google. I mean, that's somebody who rewrote the course of her life through these kinds of things we're talking about, generally mindset.

It's not conscientiousness. It's not curiosity. It's another factor that I call resilience. It's the ability to make lemonade when you get lemons, to not feel easily defeated. I mean, that really is an incredible story. Look, Dan, we've spoken about all kinds of different things. There's all kinds of stories. We've touched on some music, but there's some really concrete things so far that people can think about conscientiousness mindset you know trying new things getting outside and being active as much as possible you mentioned resilience there which I think is super important and I've highlighted this little passage in your book, which I just loved.

I mean, I think one of the reasons I love your work so much, A, it's brilliant. B, it's very consistent also with the things that I've been writing about as well. There's a lot of similar themes. There is. We have a similar outlook. Yeah, which of course, you know, my bias is, of course, I'm going to like that because it helps support the narrative that I'm saying. course, you know, my bias is, of course, I'm going to like that because it helps support the narrative that I'm saying. But I really liked these four lines, reducing stress and increasing resilience.

The ability to bounce back from adversity can be coached and taught through specialized psychotherapy, strengthening of social networks, physical exercise, and programs that help people find meaningful and purposeful activities in their lives. I absolutely love that because it just encompasses so much of what I also stand for. And I think it's inspiring for people to listen to because, you know, you can coach, you can increase your ability to be resilient. If someone listens to this might be thinking, I'm not a resilient, I get battered down. No, no, hold on a minute. You can change that, right? And that's what we're trying to say. Doesn't matter how old you are, doesn't matter where you are in life, you can change that. So, a few things we've not covered yet, which I'd really love to discuss

with you are, well, in that you mentioned social networks, strengthening the social networks. Now, this is something, again, I've touched on in many conversations on this podcast before, but why are social networks so important? Well, I have a lot to say about this, but I'll try to say less. What you and I are doing right now, Rangan, is the most complicated thing for the brain that we know of. Having a conversation with somebody you don't know. It activates more regions of the brain than anything else that we know of. It requires turn-taking.

We can't both be talking at once. It requires empathy and compassion. I have to read your body language. So if you say to me, that's interesting, and you're looking right in the eye, that's different than if you say that's interesting, and you roll your eyes on the top of your head. I've got to be keeping track of all these signals. Talking to somebody on the phone or through texting or through social networking is not the same. Actually talking to somebody on the phone or through texting or through social networking is not the same. Actually talking to somebody is very, very important. And, you know, we talk about changing your life, becoming more resilient or more of anything that you want.

Many of us don't need psychotherapy or meditation or drugs. We need it simply to have friends and family who are spurring us on. And my wife will say to me every once in a while, you haven't been to the gym in a couple of days. And I don't feel like she's nagging me. We don't have that kind of relationship, but she's spurring me on, helping me to remember the things that I want to do. And I hope I do the same for her. Social support networks. The other thing is that one of the biggest killers in old age is loneliness, which is not the same as solitude because you can feel lonely in a crowded room

and you can feel not lonely when you're by yourself. But loneliness is the biggest predictor of fatalities. And an interesting way to not get lonely is perhaps counterintuitive. It's to have what Barb Fredrickson from Stanford, now at the University of North Carolina. She and I were Stanford students together. Again, serendipity. I had this great education, and I learned about her work back then. She finds that micro-communications, just conversations with people on a bus or in the checkout line at the store. Just a little 15-second, hi, how are you? How's the weather? I see you bought these new cookies.

I've never tried them. Do you like them? Having a few of these micro conversations throughout the day is a real cure for loneliness, even for people who say I could never do that. Yeah. No, I love that. And this whole thing about loneliness, I mean, you mentioned the elderly, it's, you know, if you look at the research in the UK, yes, the elderly, loneliness is a big problem. Men between the age of 30 and 45 in this country are one of the loneliest groups in society, which absolutely is a big contributing factor to the growing tide of mental health problems in that age group and the growing rates of suicide. And I sort of can't help thinking, but the digital world is in some way, for all its benefits, is contributing to this problem. And you mentioned that digital communication is not the same as human connection.

Do you know why that is? No, we don't know why it is, but it keeps showing up. It may have to do with attention. Yeah. It may have to do with attention. I don't know of any work on the blind or the deaf, which would be helpful to have to sort this out. But if you and I are in the same room,

I can tell whether you're checking Facebook on the side or if you're texting somebody. And if we're just communicating digitally digitally in some fashion it's different there's different requirements yeah that non-verbal communication i mean i don't depending which stat you read and you may know the you know some more current research than me but it's something like 60 70 percent of communication is non-verbal right right so it's it's all that body language um that obviously you can't pick up over a computer or over your phone um and i love that thing about micro communication something i've written about quite a lot and in my latest book which is all about five minute things that people can do um there's a section all on hearts what i call heart which is not really about the

physical structure of the heart it's about human connection. And there's so many suggestions I made, but one of them is, look, if you drink coffee every day and you go to a cafe and pick it up and you're in a rush and you get in a takeaway. Okay. If you have to get it in a takeaway, say something nice to the barista, you know, just say, Hey, I really appreciate that. Or, you know, hey, the latte you made me yesterday was amazing. I hope this one's as good today or whatever. It's amazing. When you strike up this little micro, what did you call it? Micro communications.

Yeah, micro contacts, whatever. I've always liked doing things like that. And, you know, if you work at, like, sometimes if I'm getting an early train to London, I'm up early. That's how I'm feeling a bit tired. And you grab a drink on the way and you do that, you feel different, right? You've had a bit of meaningful human interaction and it changes the way you feel. You don't feel quite as insular or stuck inside your heads. Right. In a big city like Manchester or London or any big city, generally our experience

is we see all these people and we don't know any of them. And we feel like we're on the outs. We're not part of the fabric of this community. And so just having a couple of quick conversations with somebody in the street, you now feel like you're an insider. You're part of the community. And people who know the names of their neighbors and chat with them a few times a week are happier than people who don't now people always say well i could never do that

i'm too shy or i'm too nervous or people won't like me or you know but what we find is that if they can get over that could be through therapy or just willpower or inspiration or going out with a friend and letting the friend start the talking and then you ease yourself into it. That makes a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think once people get over that hump and start, it's actually a lot easier than you think, you know, because we're wired for that social connection that the other human you're interacting with also is highly likely to want and crave that human interaction as well. Because we're all walking around, you know, pretty lonely, certainly compared to how we used to be as a society. Of course, there's individual differences.

And I think once you start, you find actually people want that. They really do. So, I think that's another key takeaway for people. Social connections are important. I wouldn't want to talk to you about memory. And I think there's a certain societal narrative, which I know you're keen to challenge, about what happens as we get older. Is it true that our memory declines as we get older well you know i think that globally the societal narrative is that after you're born you begin acquiring skills and abilities you know when you're an infant you begin to learn to talk and then when you're a toddler you begin to crawl and walk and um you learn to share when you're a young child and you know it's it's a matter you go to university or trade school

and you pick up a bunch of skills. And the idea is that you keep adding and adding and then at some point you start to fall off a precipice. Maybe it's 50, 60, 70, but, you know, depending on your own story that you hold in your head, that aging is accompanied by inevitable decline. And that's not true. The brain does slow down. It can take longer to solve problems or retrieve a word. But there's no evidence that most of us will experience a real memory deficit.

Now, of course, memory deficit is a hallmark of Alzheimer's, but Alzheimer's is rarer than we appreciate or realize. You can go through your 80s and 90s with no memory decrement, apart from the fact that it might take you a little while longer to retrieve a memory. But if it was a memory impairment, you'd never get it. It would be lost. It just takes a little longer because of demyelination and other factors. So why is it then that so many of us think and take as fact that our memory declines as we get older? Well, I don't know. I think part of it is that the story was developed

for the way we lived maybe 40 years ago. We're living longer and healthier than ever before. When my grandfather was 65 in 1966, he wasn't particularly healthy. A 65-year-old today is, in general, much healthier. Everybody he knew, he was a doctor. They all smoked. I mean, in fact, at least in the U.S., there were ads that doctors would recommend smoking, that they were good smoking. Yeah.

That they were good for your brain. You know. It's just, it is so crazy to think of that now, isn't it? I mean, that wasn't that long ago, really. No, it wasn't. And I think that, you know, the way that older adults are portrayed in movies and in jokes is that they're doddering and that they are losing their memories. jokes is that they're doddering and that they are losing their memories. It almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? In the sense that if that's what the movies are telling you and that's what media is telling you,

and then let's say you're in your late 40s or early 50s and you forget something, you then will say to yourself, well, that's because I'm getting older. And it almost is reinforcing that belief. And is that part of the problem? Like, rather than actually, I think there's an example you use either in the book or an interview, I've heard you say before that we just create a different narrative around it when we're older. Yeah. So, you know, I teach college students and 19-year-olds are very forgetful. They lose their cell phones and their keys. They forget their computer passwords. This happens to 79-year-olds too.

But the story is different. When a 19-year-old, you know, has one of these memory lapses, lost my cell phone, can't find it, they just say, oh, I've got to get more sleep or I've got too much on my plate. The 79-year-old or even 59-year-old says, it's Alzheimer's, I've got to get more sleep or I've got too much on my plate. The 79-year-old or even 59-year-old says, it's Alzheimer's, I know it, it's downhill from here. Part of the problem is that if you forget something and you obsess about it or stress about it, that's going to release cortisol and adrenaline, which are going to shut your memory down and they make it even worse. So if you're trying to find a word and you're just beating yourself up and say, oh, I have it here,

that's the worst thing you can do. It's better to let go. Now, we do know that when older adults have this memory lapse or delay in getting a word or a name, it's not actually the concept that they've forgotten. It's what's called the phonological word form, that peculiar set of vowels and consonants that represent the word. That's what you lose. And there's a very particular area of the brain that is a little bit decremented as we get older. So you might know that you're thinking of a flower and you can picture it and you know its use, but you can't get the name gladiola. But sooner or later, you'll get it.

It's that, and you might even know it starts with G. It's four syllables. I mean, we've had this tip of the tongue kind of a phenomenon. But the proof that it's not really a memory deficit per se is that you get it eventually. And, you know, just don't stress out about it. Let it go. I mean, can we train that to be better? Let's say we're thinking of that flower, we can't think of gladiola. Is there something we can do to make it more likely that we can think of the word?

We don't know, other than just letting go and moving on. It's not that, most of the time, it's not that important that you get exactly the right word. I don't think that's important, isn't it? That whole idea that really circles back to something you said right at the start of this conversation about, you know, I think you said something about diet. You don't stress about it too much. And you're saying now when you stress about it and you release cortisol, cortisol in itself, when, you know, too much of it for too long a period of time will be detrimental to your memory. So, chronic stress is detrimental to your brain, right? Absolutely. I mean, we've been listing big killers. Chronic stress is a huge killer.

Yeah. The fact is, though, you do need a little bit of stress. Yeah. Stress is actually neuroprotective, and it kickstarts the immune system. This is why I say, you know, if you retire from something, you should retire to something else. why I say, you know, if you retire from something, you should retire to something else. You need the modicum of stress that requires you to get up out of bed in the morning and groom yourself and go be with other people and make some work product that's got a deadline. All these things

are important as long as they're not stressing you out completely uh without that small amount of stress we often see a great decline in mental and physical health but yes chronic is it's like with everything in the body there's this goldilocks zone yeah you know too little is no good too much is no good you've got to come right just right in the middle you know i teach um a course that i created with with uh some colleagues of mine called Prescribing Lifestyle Medicine, an accredited course that we teach to, you know, GPs and specialists and other healthcare professionals about the science of various lifestyle factors and how we can use them to help our patients.

And I show this graph, I think it's from a 2015 journal. I can't remember the name, Learning Memory. I can't remember the name of learning memory I can't remember the name of the journal but again there is a journal of learning and memory it's one of our big journals I think it's that one and there's this beautiful graph showing stress's impact on the brain and how again it's that you know you start off a little stress increases your brain function is improved. But then you start to get diminishing returns, and then it starts to become detrimental. And we know that, you know, chronic stress, you know, kills nerve cells in the hippocampus and memory center of the brain. So, as you say,

it is that Goldilocks zone. You need enough to get you engaged in life, but not so much that you're worrying about every little thing. I think you actually mentioned in the book, don't you, people who ruminate a lot, that go over and over things and worry and become anxious about it. You're saying that actually makes your body awash with those stress hormones that can actually be detrimental to aging well. Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah, I mean, super, super interesting. And the stress hormones not only

damage cells in the hippocampus they damage your microbiota in the gut they get it out of balance and you know your microbiome is is creating 95 of the serotonin that ends up in your brain and doing all other kinds of things in terms of immune function. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible. I mean, Dan, there is so much that we could talk about. Going back to before we close it off with some really practical tips for people, you know, one thing I really was absorbed with in your book was that was the stuff on pain and i think you quote a statistic saying that pain is the source of 80 percent of doctor visits in the u.s or something like that which which was really staggering and it's interesting also that the way we treat pain today is basically the same way we've treated it for 2000 years with the bark of a tree,

aspirin, or its synthetic equivalents, or the seed of a poppy, opiates and their synthetic equivalents. We have not made advances in 2000 years. Well, I wonder if that's because we're looking at it maybe through the wrong lens. And what I mean by that is you say in your book that pain, and why this is so important is we're talking about healthspan versus lifespan. Sure, you can live to 100, but if your last 10 years are in chronic pain, you know, that is going to influence the quality of your life and how much enjoyment you get and what you're going to get out of that life. And you say that pain is influenced by cultural, environmental, historical, and cognitive factors.

Isn't that interesting? So, in the US, doctors all know, especially ER doctors, emergency room doctors, you call them something else here, I think. Yeah, well, A&E or emergency departments. All of them know that if you're a member of a certain cultural or ethnic group, on the standard pain scale of 1 to to ten if you say that your pain is three and you remember this particular group they prepare the operating table these are people who are not accustomed to expressing pain you know zero is no pain ten is a lot of pain if they say three it's time to prep the operating room there are other people they'll say they have a nine and it means you can, you know, just let them sit in the waiting room for

a few hours. There are these different ways we have of being in the world that are cultural. And I guess in many levels of pain, well, not many levels, pain is subjective, right? So, it's absolutely that. So, therefore, if we're using a subjective scale, n 0 to 10, to tell the doctor in front of us or the healthcare professional how much pain we're in, of course, my three may be different from your three. Absolutely. And it's a matter of context. I'm really annoyed and I'll stop and take the rock out. But I might pay 40 quid to go to a massage therapist to press on exactly that part of my foot. And give you the same level of pain. So, it could be, let's say, a seven with a rock. It could be a seven with a vigorous and strong massage, but you will interpret that differently, won't you? Oh,

this is good for me because there's tension here that the massage therapist is releasing as opposed to, oh, something's there. And I guess in a nutshell, we could do two hours on just pain alone. It's that complex because there is, it's very clear now, isn't it? It's not just, it's certainly not just mechanical at all. There are emotional stress, psychosocial components to do with pain. You know, how come you wrote a chapter on pain? Well, again, I think part of it was that a lot of what we know about pain hasn't trickled down to the average person. A lot of it came out of McGill, where I ran a lab for 20 years from Ron Melzack. And in fact, I include the Melzack pain scale in the book, because if people

can refer to it before they go to see their doctor or go to the A&E, they're using the terms that doctors might be expecting them to use. For example, is the pain stabbing or is it dull? Is it focused or is it based on pressure or based on laceration, these kinds of things. But the other reason I wrote about it is that, again, part of this societal narrative is that as we age, we're going to be miserable and in pain. And actually, the available evidence is that, yes, we do get aches and pains, and they get worse and worse, and then they start getting better. There's a point of inflection that depends on the person, but around 75 or 80, the aches and pains somehow disappear for many of us or become manageable. Yeah, and that's a very optimistic note, which is a great way to start ending this conversation that i've really really enjoyed and i wish we did have another two hours me too um you mentioned i think another another

very exciting statistic is that 82 is the happiest age statistically that's what i read in your book yeah incredible i mean so that gives us for anyone who's listening to this podcast or watching on YouTube right now, who is under the age of 82, which is probably many, if the majority is saying, I would guess, that's pretty exciting. It means our happiest days are still to come, right? And I think we can push that out another 10 or 20 years if we can get rid of ageism and treat older adults with more dignity and respect, not allow them to fall into complacency and learned helplessness. I think 82 is movable. Yeah. Well, I love that, Dan. I absolutely love that. And, you know, I always like to close off

the conversations with tips for people. So, the podcast is called Feel Better Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of life. And I think the tips that you are, you know, the habits you're talking to people about in your book, yes, it's going to help them age better, but it's also going to help them feel better today. Yeah, agreed. And that's what's really exciting. So, I wonder, you know, you've done a lot of talks, you've been on a book tour for over two months now. From everything that you have put into this book, from all the feedback you've had at events,

you know, what are some of your top four or five tips that people can think about applying into their everyday lives immediately to improve the way that they feel? Well, follow healthy practices. A moderate diet. There's no one diet that's been clearly shown superior to the others. The Mediterranean diet, the keto, the paleo, none of them have panned out, you know, statistically or research-wise.

And actually, as you say, and we didn't get a chance to cover this, but you say, as I absolutely agree with, that often it's more important what you don't eat than what you do eat. Right. Don't eat heavily processed foods. And it's also more important than we realized when you eat. Yeah. Your metabolism is linked to your biological clock, that funnily named suprachiasmatic nucleus.

And if you eat at the same time every day, you're going to digest the food and draw the nutrients out of it more completely. So, moderated lifestyle in terms of diet. Eat more plants than you usually do, probably. But a varied diet. And get a good night's sleep. And movement, which I see as the imprisoned corollary of exercise. It's not about whether you get an extra 20 minutes on the treadmill. It's about whether you actually get outside and move your whole body, especially in nature. So that's three things, the healthy practices of

diet, exercise, and sleep. And then I would talk about mindset, trying to cultivate curiosity, openness to new experience, conscientiousness, and resilience. And then the final thing, number five, is to associate with new people, especially younger people as you get older. Keep your social networks, and I don't mean your digital ones, I mean your in-person ones, going. Because that is really an important part of brain health and brain happiness. I love those tips. I think my listeners are going to absolutely love them as well. Thank you for making time today. If people want to sort of stay in touch with you, are you on social media?

Yep. I'm at Daniel Levitin Official on Instagram and at Dan Levitin on Twitter. And those are the best ways to find me. Fantastic. Well, Dan, thank you for your time. And I have no doubt that if you're willing, next time you're in the UK with a bit of time, we will continue this conversation. Oh, I would look forward to that. Thank you. That concludes today's episode of the podcast what did you think i thoroughly enjoyed my chat with dan i hope you got a lot of value from our conversation together you know when i reflect on

dan's top tips it never ceases to amaze me that no matter what expert or highly esteemed guest I have on the show. There are always some consistent themes, sleep, food, movement, mindset. These are the things that improve the quality of our lives in the short term, but also in the long term. Now, there were so many amazing tips on today's show. Please don't try and do everything at once. advice as always will be to pick one thing that you heard about today that you feel you can implement into your own life immediately of course please do let Dan and I know what you thought of today's show on social media and if you get a second please do rate review share the show with your friends and family if you're interested in learning more now that the podcast is over please do head over to the show notes page which is

drchastity.com forward slash 112 on it you'll see links to dan's new book his previous books his website his social media channels and some of the studies that we discussed on the show today, as well as some really interesting articles. And of course, don't forget, if you want practical tips on how to bring these changes into your life, please do check out one of my first three books, The Four-Pillar Plan, The Stress Solution, and Feel Better in Five. In fact, many of you have been asking me over the past few weeks when Feel Better in Five is going to be available in 5. In fact, many of you have been asking me over the past few weeks when Feel Better in 5 is going to be available in America. I've now got a publication date, September the 1st of this year. So you can jump onto amazon.com now and pre-order your very own copy of Feel Better in 5. It has a brand new cover. It looks completely different. So really, really excited to see the response to

the book when it is out in America. Now, many of you do ask me how you can support my weekly podcast. One of the best ways is to support the sponsors of this show. Without them, there really would be no show. I've got a page on my website now with all the links from this episode and previous episodes to the promotional offers given by the sponsors you can see all the previous offers from companies like vivo barefoot and athletic greens at drchastity.com forward slash sponsors don't forget this episode like all of them is also available to watch in full on youtube so if you know someone who you think would benefit from the show, but doesn't listen to audio podcasts, please send them in the direction of my YouTube channel. A big thank you to Vedanta Chastity for producing this week's show and to Richard Hughes for audio engineering.

That is it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure you have pressed subscribe and I'll be back in one week's time with my latest conversation. subscribe and I'll be back in one week's time with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time. Thank you.