Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #117 Why Black Lives Matter with Darryl Edwards

Episode Date: June 16, 2020

CAUTION ADVISED: this podcast contains themes of an adult nature. Darryl Edwards – aka The Fitness Explorer – was one of the very first guests to appear on this podcast, all the way back on episode 7. He is someone who is passionate about promoting movement that is fun and playful. But that’s not why I invited Darryl back to talk to me on this episode. If there’s a thread that runs through all my podcasts, it’s that empathy and compassion are essential to feeling better and living more – and that’s more important now than ever. This episode was recorded 10 days after George Floyd lost his life in Minneapolis, US, and the #BlackLivesMatter movement rose up in response.  I talk to Darryl about his experiences growing up in the UK with black skin. He was born in the UK but his grandparents came here from Jamaica in the early 1950’s. Whilst Darryl is a leading light in the wellness industry, he’s also one of the few black faces. And perhaps, until now, we haven’t thought enough about why.  Darryl has an in-depth knowledge of black history and in today’s conversation, he takes us back to the very origins of the transatlantic slave trade, the ‘social construct of race’, and dehumanisation of African people in the late 14th century. He describes how, far from being a US-only problem, transatlantic slavery was introduced by Europeans throughout the world and capitalised upon by the British. He explains how racism didn’t end with the abolition of the slave trade but continued through systemic laws of suppression, oppression, colonisation and segregation. I’m really grateful to Darryl for distilling what he knows into a form that we can all understand and act on.  He shares shocking examples of racism he’s experienced, from playground bullying through overt workplace discrimination to the fact that, as a black man, the police have pulled him over while driving at least 100 times, including at gunpoint. Whether this is an experience you share or one you can only contemplate with horror, the question we are all asking now is how should we respond. Darryl and I discuss how all of us, not just the black community, have a responsibility to internalise racism and think ‘that could have been me’. Empathy and compassion surely have to be part of the solution. Can something positive come from the tragic death of George Floyd? Perhaps, if those of us now listening, engaging and learning go out into the world and demand change. ‘Our window of discussion has extended,’ says Darryl. ‘Please listen to us.’ This conversation is a very good place to start. Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/117 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I feel as if I'm sleeping, always sleeping with one eye open and one eye closed. That's what this kind of systemic racism, this feeling of living is like. You have to be aware that it could happen at any time and that it's always been a part of your existence from the very first instance. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better Live More. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the podcast. So it's been an emotional few weeks, there's been a lot going on in the world. And in particular, there has been a growing and important social conversation taking place around race, prejudice and privilege.

What I try and do on this podcast is to have conversations that matter. Important, authentic and insightful conversations that really make us all think and reflect on how we might do things differently. And I feel strongly that this is an issue that matters and is an issue worth talking about. So I decided to invite my friend Daryl Edwards back onto the show. Now Daryl was actually one of the very first guests to appear on this podcast all the way back on episode seven. And he's someone who is really passionate about promoting movement that's fun and playful. But that's not why I've invited Daryl back to talk to me today. If there's a thread that runs through all my podcasts, it's that empathy and compassion are essential to feeling better and living more. And that's more important

now than ever. I wanted to talk to Daryl about his experience growing up in the UK with black skin. He was born in the UK, but his grandparents came here from Jamaica in the early 1950s. Whilst Daryl is a leading light in the wellness industry, he's also one of the very few black faces and perhaps until now we haven't thought enough about why. Daryl has an in-depth knowledge of black history and in today's conversation he takes us back to the very origins of the slave trade and explains why race was actually something that was constructed here in Europe. I'm really grateful to Daryl for distilling what he knows into a form we can all understand and act on. He shares shocking examples of the racism he's experienced, from playground bullying,

through overt workplace discrimination, to the fact that as a black man, the police have pulled him over whilst driving at least 100 times, including at gunpoint. Whether this is an experience you share or one you can only contemplate and imagine with horror, the question we are all asking is how should we respond as individuals and as a society? Daryl suggests that all of us, not just the black community, have a responsibility to internalize racism and think, that could have been me. Empathy and compassion surely have to be part of the solution. and compassion surely have to be part of the solution. Can something positive come from the tragic death of George Floyd? Perhaps, if those of us now listening, engaging and learning go out into the world and demand change. Our window of discussion has extended, says Daryl. Please listen to us. This conversation is a very good place to start.

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special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of athletic greens which is worth around 70 pounds with your first order you can check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more now on to today's conversation so daryl welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Rangan, for the invitation. I'm really looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, me too. You are actually one of my earliest guests. I can't remember the episode number, but, you know, way back in the day. I think it's number seven, yeah, which is my lucky number, actually.

So, your lucky number, fantastic. As you know, Daryl, I'm a huge fan of your work I really enjoyed that chat with you I always enjoy frankly any conversation any interaction with you um but as you know what has prompted this conversation is what's going on in the world at the moment and you know to put it in context of people who are listening, because not everyone listens on the week of release. Some people will be listening to this conversation in six months or 12 months time. We're recording this conversation maybe a week and a half after George Floyd lost his life in America. And since that happened, there has clearly been a huge movement and a growing awareness of what that means, what has happened,

and the potential implications. This movement is happening in a way that I have never seen before. Certainly, in my awareness as an adult, I have never seen before. Certainly, you know, in my awareness as an adult, I've never seen anything like this before. So before we get sort of cracking into the conversation, you know, my background is that my parents are Indian immigrants to the UK, but I was born and brought up here. I wonder, Daryl, if you could start by explaining your background and how that might play into the conversation we're about to have today. Yes. So I was born here, first generation Black British of African descent as a byproduct of the transatlantic slave trade. So both my parents are Jamaican.

My grandparents came here in the 50s, early 50s. And I think whenever I thought about this issue and this issue of systemic racism and prejudice and bias and stereotypes and the like, and having discussions with other people, what I've noticed is the main level of ignorance is in how did this start? How did this come about? Is there a history at play here which informs not only my experience as growing up to the present day, those who look like me, but of others as well. So why would somebody state that there's such a

thing as white privilege? Why would somebody make that claim? Why is that being proclaimed? Why would we need to use terms like hashtag black lives matter why are there some of other heritage heritage who will also say i don't really understand you know i'm from another part of the world and even though i'm an immigrant my experience has been different and when you understand the history you'll realize there is such an interconnect between all our experiences. And when you realize what the kind of genesis was of this breaking down and this division by race, which is not actually a biological or genetic construct. It's a social construct. So once you understand this social construct and how it began, then you can start to unravel why I'm having this experience today, why you will have certain experiences that may differ to mine, but are still subjected to what is systemic and structural.

Why people who are being told you have a certain amount of privilege will not be aware of it. And why even, not just a black and white thing, why even those who want to turn themselves as brown, or, for example, why they are not aware of where they too can have this distinction of privilege because it isn't binary. There are shades of grey from the most extreme examples

of what can happen being subjected to brutality of racism up to what's relatively trivial, seen, deemed to be relatively harmless and is deemed as acceptable. So yeah, I would love to share the historical perspective and bring it forward to the present day. And that will give people an historical context and hopefully help them understand,

oh, I can see why I have that point of view. I can see this isn't purely about my experiences growing up, but some of it is a legacy. Some of it has been passed down to me. Some of it is within my DNA. of it has been passed down to me. Some of it is within my DNA and I have no idea as to why. Yeah. Darrell, you brought up so many different issues there and we're going to try to unpack all of them throughout the course of this conversation. I think one of the things you said there that really, really made me think is this issue of blind spots, this idea that many people, even until two weeks ago, right, were going about their lives completely unaware that there may be a big, a significant problem with racism all over the world, but certainly in America,

but also here in the UK. And I think that's been the most striking thing for me, is how many people seem to be waking up to what many people have known have been going on for years. Now, I will emphasise here, and I think you brought up a really good point, that it's not binary. And I agree with you, it's not binary. But lots of different people have experiences of racism, myself and my family included. But it's become quite clear to me over the past few weeks in particular, that that's a very different experience over the past few weeks in particular, that that's a very different experience from the experience that the black community face. And that's something I've been spending a lot of time thinking about. So before we get too deep, I wanted to ask you, Daryl, do you remember where

you were, what you were doing when you saw that video? And when you saw it video and when you saw it what goes through your mind um yeah i i as soon as i first saw the news which was would have been on social media i didn't i didn't watch i didn't watch the video i already i already knew what the outcome was um i certainly formed an opinion as to what occurred and as to why it occurred. And to be frank with you, Rangan, I've seen scores, hundreds, probably thousands actually of those type of videos over the last few years. So for me, it was just another example of this extreme case of racial-based police brutality. And we have to, again, we have to compartmentalize this, you know, and say it isn't, you know, there is such a thing as police brutality, there can be, which can affect anyone. But there's a specific type of brutality, which is based on this systemic institutionalized problem. And in some respects, America, like in lots of different examples, it sometimes displays the best and worst of all types of areas of life and humanity,

it kind of represents this duality that always exists. And the legacy within the US of the slave trade and the slave trade being held on to a lot longer than other parts of the world. So when slavery had been abolished by the British, within the British Empire, for example, it still continued in the Americas, in the United States. That continued for some time.

And after slavery had ended, it was a very short window of where there was significant progression by African- Americans of being able to own property, of being elected to government. You know, there was a significant high proportion of members of the Senate and the House just after slavery. Incredible, you know, recognition and wealth creation. That occurred. But what also happened was people saying, hold on a second, no, we're not happy about this as former slave masters. What can we do to

maintain the sort of labor we were getting before, which is free? What can we do to ignore the claims of compensation by our slaves? So the compensation at the time was going to be 40 acres in a mule. That's what Spike Lee calls his production company, actually. Because every former slave, that was going to be the compensation given to slaves. That wasn't granted. So they lost the access to property. They lost the ability to be able to provide for themselves.

They lost political representation because voting rights were basically obliterated. So you could no longer have representation. They introduced Jim Crow laws, which were laws of segregation, which mandated in law that even though the Bill of Rights say that all men are created equal, you know, that's part of the constitution, that actually you're still going to be seen as non-human, as not a human being. So we will continue to have these laws which will say you cannot dine together, you can't work together, you can't live in the same communities together. You have to be subjected to us maintaining this structure, this system of racism. And that's with us today. experiences to share of how you have experienced racism and discrimination and prejudice in your life here in the UK. And I definitely want to get into that because I think it's important, particularly for listeners of this podcast in the UK, to realise that actually this is not just a

US problem. But before we go into those experiences, I wonder you you you're someone who who is very familiar with the history uh of racism where this all started and how actually we in the uk can look over there to seeing a problem without realizing that actually it was back over here in europe where a lot of this started so i wonder if you could just take us through that history so that we can understand it. So basically, this construct of race started in the late 14th, early 15th century. And because prior to that, there was no definition of race based on color, based on ethnicity, based on where you came from.

There was nothing like this. People traded, people had wars, people fought, people had slaves. It was usually based on status, on class, on being conquered. That's what happened. That's what happened. At the time of the initial exploration to the New World, i.e. the Americas, by the Spanish, the reason that occurred wasn't because they just wanted to see what else there was in the world. It was because they were aware there were riches elsewhere, precious metals in particular, that they couldn't source from Europe. So let's go to foreign lands and see what we can obtain. Maybe there aren't people living there.

You know, maybe it's just an empty, vast resource available to us as Europeans and we can claim whatever is there. Of course, they encountered people, and the Spanish basically annihilated most of the native population of all of the Americas. a lot of trade that existed across the Mediterranean between Africa and Europe, decided to capitalize on the slaves that were already in existence in Africa, of actually utilizing them for labor in Europe, because the Catholic Church had basically made slavery of a European, of another European,

they kind of, you know, it was banned. It was no longer permissible. It's probably a better expression by the Catholic Church. So the Roman Catholic Church permitted slavery from non-Europeans into Europe. And then there was royal assent by the crown to say, yes, you can continue to do this. And there were a couple of conditions. One condition was they have to be converted to Christianity. So it's actually okay if you do that, because they'll have a better life in heaven. And secondly, was that this was going to be a lifelong experience of slavery.

You couldn't pay for your freedom, which is what a lot of slavery was prior to that time. You'd work for a certain period of time, and then you would earn your freedom. So that stopped. And the third was there had to be a justification as to why you could enslave. As a Christian, how can I enslave another human being? And so they had to create this system of we are superior, you are inferior, you're not humans. If you are killed, thou shalt not kill, one of the commandments of the Bible, doesn't exist in that example. If I kill a native First Nation person from the Americas, thou shalt not kill does not apply.

It's not applicable. So they had to create a justification religiously in order to do so. And once the Spanish, the Portuguese who initiated this, of course the European nations got wind and they were like, we want to take part in this. The British, the French, the Dutch, a lot of Western Europe took part in the transatlantic slave trade. And a lot of the wars of that period were to establish dominance over the assets of the new world. So Jamaica, for example, which is my sort of intermediate heritage, was owned by the Spanish, had been conquered by the Spanish. Most of the Indians who are known as the Arawak Indians, the native peoples, were wiped out. Very few left.

Slaves from West Africa were transported to the Caribbean, and it was established as a Spanish port. The British pretty much just took it over because the Spanish were spared so thinly across all of their territories, they couldn't defend a lot of their territories. So the British capitalized on that. Pirates were used. Pirates of the Caribbean, it sounds so romantic when you watch those movies. But the true story is the British used pirates to destabilize

some of those territories from the Spanish, fighting over, again, precious metals. from the Spanish, fighting over, again, precious metals. But what was even more lucrative was when this triangle of trade commenced, which was the new riches of the Americas. Tobacco, cotton, sugar, and rice would be in fourth place. But those three commodities became the most valuable commodities at that time, very lucrative. And they monopolized that by taking those riches from those regions, which were harvested by slaves, to Europe. And then they went to Africa and sold, traded guns and the like, took slaves and carted them back to the Americas. And that and that continued.

So there was a justification. There was a justification to enslave another human being, to treat them as cattle, to trade them at market at the marketplace, to, you know, kill those who were on the ships who didn't play ball, who didn't want to be subjected to that. So people were throwing up the ships like any other asset that doesn't suit a purpose. And the problem with this aspect of the slave trade, it was the biggest slave trade ever in human history millions tens of millions plus were involved in that route from west africa and so from west africa to america to the americas so the by by the amer, that means North, the Caribbean, Central America, and South America.

So anyone of my hue, my complexion, that is from the Caribbean, or South America, or North America, who was born of several generations ago, is basically the son or daughter of a slave. That's it. That's the reality. So I knew from a very young age that my ancestors were slaves. That was 100% a fact. How did you feel about that? Because for people who are not familiar with that history, Daryl, I suspect that many people know a little bit about slaves may have seen a couple of films but regard it as something off the past that doesn't have relevance anymore i told and i can totally sympathize with that point of view you know what does that have to do with now and even for myself when i first was told about slavery um it's like, yeah, what's that got to do with me today?

You know, we have to focus on today. But many of us feel that once slavery was abolished, that was the end of it. There was no continuation of this legacy. But unfortunately, there was a continuation of this legacy. The continuation of this legacy was after the slave trade had been abolished, were these systemic laws that were created in the Americas and other parts of the world to keep that suppression and oppression in place. The next stage, which was the colonization phase, and for somebody of Indian heritage, of Indian descent, many, you know, lots of Indians are aware of India being, you know, one of the jewels in the crown of the British Empire.

You know, Jamaica was at one point, Jamaica was actually the wealthiest region globally, generating more money for the British crown than any other region because of the slave trade. So that's all stopped. That's all ended. Let's just move on. Let's move on from there. One of the things people don't realize is when slavery was abolished, the slaves received nothing. So similar to in the US

where there was no 40 acres in the mule, slave trade in the Caribbean, in the British Empire, there was no compensation for the slaves. The slave masters, on the other hand, had significant compensation by the British government. I recall that it was 50% of GDP was granted to former slave owners in England.

Yeah, so Dara, to me, and I'm not familiar with all the detail with respect to this history as clearly you are um but what i hear when i hear that is if you and or your family have been enslaved for years yes and then yes you're freed um yes but you don't get anything well you don't have it you presumably don't have much anyway to actually start and create that life that you may want but also if the slave masters are being compensated to such high degrees for loss of a subhuman to work for them you know which is which is frankly inhumane to even think about this and even talk about this but you're creating right from the get-go a disparity where the people

who were slave masters are getting compensated so the gap between them presumably and the poor is huge and yes in some ways i mean what year was that and then are we still living through the legacy of that disparity and wealth today yes we certainly were and i'll try and i'll try and really compress this because there's a significant history but i know we were limited on time so yes there was, there was that initial, here's some compensation. Slaves weren't educated. They were illiterate. They weren't able to go to school.

No education. The only skills they had was working the land. You continue to work the land. Some slaves actually had to hire the land they were working on with the proceeds going to their master. I mean, again, there was, you know, it was, the system was created in a way to ensure that we still need to make money as former slave owners. This is one way of doing it. By the time of the British colonizing India, for example, slavery was no longer in existence. However, the subjugation, the decision of saying that we are superior as Europeans

to you as Indians, you have to be subservient, you have to subject yourselves to our great authority. There's lots of atrocities, which I'm sure you're aware of in Indian history, but because of the hands of the British and the Dutch as well, and the Portuguese.

It wasn't just the British, but the British mainly. But there's something called colorism, for example. So this is not often spoken about. But within the South Indian continent, South Asia, there is this concept that was introduced by the British, that was introduced by their view of the world. And those of lighter hue, lighter complexion, tended to have a far better life experience than those of darker skin. The caste system, for example, and there's a focus on,

you know, it isn't just about the type of labor that you do or, you know, the heritage that you have. There's a significant aspect of it, which is based on the color of your skin. So that happened in India. We still have the ramifications of that happening today in India. The Dalits, the previously known as the Untouchables, those individuals were subjected to a different life experience, and many of those individuals can't escape that fact. And to consider most of it is just based on this. most of it is just based on this. So it's almost impossible to say that any of us can escape this. So there's this legacy of systemic racism based on this hierarchy of privilege and supremacy

and the gradient from the top to the bottom and the darker your skin complexion usually the worse the more severe the treatment the treatment in national so national socialism with the nazis nazi germany for example the jews are subjected to that if you look at any of their work people often say it was just about the Nazis and the Jews, National Associates and the Jews. But there are many examples of those of African descent who are part of those who need to be destroyed. You know, Roman Egyptians, those who were mentally and physically handicapped, those who were of darker complexion,

you know, the Slavs, for example, were put into that category, those of Slavic heritage, those of Asian descent were in that category. So there were other peoples who were slaughtered in the Holocaust, even though the Jews were obviously the majority, significantly majority of those affected. But that's another period of history where that system of Eurocentric view of the world was mandated. Apartheid is another example in South Africa. You know, segregation was also a part of that into the 60s. And even though apartheid has been dismantled in the 90s, segregation was dismantled in the 60s, there is still this legacy that any of us on that spectrum still face and still feel.

Yeah, it's interesting, Dara. One thing that I think we often forget is how recent apartheid existed, how recently black people in America weren't able to mix with white people or travel, you know, frequent the same places, play baseball. I remember maybe a few years ago, over the last years, I've been to lots of conferences, often to do with lifestyle medicine in America, like yourself. And often on the planes, I end up watching a film. And I remember watching so many and thinking, wow, I think it was, I can't remember the year where black Americans were actually allowed to play baseball in the top tier. I think it was called 42. I could be completely wrong on that. Yeah, I think, yes, yes. And I thought, that's not that long ago. Yeah, Robinson.

Yeah, Jackie Robinson. You think that wasn't that long ago yeah Robinson yeah you know yeah Jackie Robinson you think that wasn't that long ago and then you think about and it was more relevant to me because I was traveling to America quite frequently and I was thinking wow in the context of that having a black president seems on so many levels a huge progress given that's what 50 60 years ago you know uh if you had black colored skin you couldn't play baseball in the top league and now there's a black president but i guess in some ways has that been misleading because you have a black president and it would appear that maybe we're moving into a post-racial era yet the the events of two weeks ago, or not quite two weeks ago, show us quite clearly that we haven't.

Yes, it is confusing. And of course, there has been significant progress. Even for myself, the career that I was in, to be able to go to university, to be able to do the kind of work that I was doing. That's progress. But unfortunately, I was still subjected to racism, systemic racism at job interviews.

There were times that I was off the job over the phone and they saw my CV, they gave me a rigorous interview we needed to start immediately i'd get to the office and as soon as you walked in you knew you weren't you weren't going to be working there there'll be you know sorry the budget's been pulled for this project um sorry you know we don't think you're going to fit in here you know like maybe it's too far of a commute it's a bit too far outside london maybe you should do i'm like and you kind of go no it can't surely can't be racism you know surely that's not the reason there must be another explanation for this but that's i think that's that's i think this is a really good point daryl because if it's just one isolated incident right it's easy to think i

wasn't in my head or um you know there's no way sometimes of proving some of this stuff right and that's and and a lot i absolutely i don't want to put my experiences in here because we're very much specifically trying to talk about uh your experience and the experience of people with black skin. But I will say from hearing that is that, does that lead to a bit of self-doubt? You think, no, no, it wasn't that. It was something else. You don't want to believe it. Yet if you see it over and over again, you go, I know what's going on here. I mean, when was the first time you remember, you know, being on the receiving end of a racist comments and then how did that play out in your career in the I mean uh primary school playground you know five or six years old people who were you

know I went to a very multicultural I came from a very multicultural community my school was very multicultural there were kids from all over the world the first time I had a racist slur I was like I don't even know what that is I'm in shock I know it's something bad I speak to my parents

about it and they explain to me they kind of explain we kind of told you this was going to happen This is the reality of what you're going to face. And that continued. There were so many of those incidents. You know, I saw the National Front were marching. You know, if anyone doesn't know what the National Front were, they're like a far right organization. they were marching. I knew people who were older than I who were being attacked because of the color of their skin. I saw signs saying, Blacks go home.

I was surrounded by that. So I couldn't, even though I felt that things certainly were better from what my parents told me, what my grandparents told me, their experiences when they arrived, I didn't feel or experience many of the things they experienced. But I had a new experience, which was still bolted on, which was still connected to all of their experiences. connected to all of their experiences. And when I went to grammar school, so I was the only kid at my school who passed, they were 11 plus, I was 10 years old. I came from a very, certainly no privilege, very poor, very impoverished childhood, but I was able to go to grammar school. Parents are very proud of me. They'd always driven me to do well grammar school parents are very proud of me they'd already they'd always driven me to do well at school my mother told me at five you need to be a doctor that's what I was told

you know and I was like yeah it's gonna it's gonna happen went to secondary school grammar school the first day at school I remember uh there was some racist abuse i was one of maybe seven or eight non-white children in my school year and about 120 kids and on the first day of school it was only the first year of school that would attend on day two i then got a sixth former so you know they're like 16 17 who bullied me who basically told me at 11 years old that I was going to get bullied every single day that he saw me at school. He was going to take my money. He was going to make my life hell. I didn't belong at this school. And this school was right in the middle of a very diverse community. But that's what I was told. And I went home and I says, you know, mom, this is what happened to

me today. And, you know, I was in tears and she's like, did you stick up for yourself? And I says, you know, I tried to mom, but you know, he, I'm only really small and he's, he's 16, 17. He's like, he's like a man, you know, what am I, what can I do? How can I defend myself? You know, did you go to, did you tell the teachers, you know, mom, I tried to tell the teachers, but they didn't really, they didn't really want to know. They didn't really want to help. I was, I knew I was on my own. And my mother just said to me, you need to find a way of being able to deal with this, because you may, we may not be able to help you, protect you. We can't always chaperone you to school. We can't always meet you after school. The teachers may not be able to help you.

And I recognize that it wasn't just me. A lot of my friends of similar heritage were having exactly the same problems. So the messaging that I had from my parents from five years old, that kind of drove me on to really want to excel at school. And there were a few hiccups for sure. But, you know, I decided not to specialize in the sciences and do medicine, which is my original plan. I fell in love with computers in the late seventies, actually. And I decided that's what I want to do as a career. I didn't

even know there was a career in computer science, but I just had a feeling that's what I want to do with my life. And when I did computer science at university and I went into the world of work, I think what I assumed was that things were going to get better. So when I was trying to get my first job post-qualification, I assumed that was going to be it. I'm like, oh, I've now got the qualifications. You know, I can now do whatever I want. This piece of paper is going to give me freedom. And it didn't, it didn't happen. I mean, I did so, I took part in so many interviews where you're just thinking to yourself, what am I doing wrong? You know, I'm, I'm acing the tests. I'm acing all the technical tests.

I'm getting, you know, a hundred percent. Daryl, you did the best in the test out of all the candidates. But sorry, we just can't give you a job. What do your parents do? Just explain what my parents did. Oh, well, yeah, sorry, we can't give you the job. What my parents have to do whether I can have this job or not. There were so many obstacles. People telling me...

What did your parents do at the time? My mother was a full-time mom. My dad was a mechanic and carpenter. That's what they did. My mother was at home. You know, it was fairly traditional back in the 70s. A lot of parents did that had that had that type of house and let's put this into some time perspective when you had finished you got

your qualifications and you were out there looking for work and jobs what was that the 70s was it the 80s so that would have been the 90s that was in the 90s so so so yeah so that would have been the 90s uh the early 90s and um yeah applying, you know, you apply for every single job available. A lot of my, you know, a lot of my former students, so students that basically I achieved better qualifications than them, they were getting jobs just like that. I was still looking for work. What I ended up doing was I started doing a job getting paid

about a third of what I should have been getting paid just so I could build up the experience. That's what I started doing. So I just did a job. I was like, I'll do anything. Just let me sit in this desk. So I did a purchasing assistance job, buying goods and services.

And I actually also said to my boss at the time, can I do some programming out of hours? So I ended up staying after hours, building up some programming experience, commercial experience, getting paid about, back then it was about 8,000 pounds. And I should have been getting at least double that, triple that. And I remember after a while getting this experience, saying to my boss, look, I'm developing these systems for you. I'm helping. I'm helping out. Any chance of a promotion, any chance of a few more thousand, you know, just 10,000, you know, that would suit me.

And I remember my boss saying to me, you don't deserve that sort of money. Just continue doing what you're doing. Again, subjugation again. You don't deserve any more money. And I'd be like, but look, I'm doing programming work. So I should be getting a lot more. Oh, no, not here you won't. So I decided to leave.

I was like, now I've got enough experience. Let me go out there and see what I can get now. I've got a few years. That's going to make a difference, surely. So I went through the same process again of getting lots of doors slammed in the face. Until one day, I remember having five interviews and I had four job offers. And this was in London, again, more diverse. Like, okay, wow, this is people biting my arm off saying, yes, we want you to work for us.

Look at your experience. Look at the things you've done. We'll pay you whatever you need. I went back to work and I remember telling my boss, oh, I'm going to be leaving in a month or so. I'm handing him my notice. Oh, how did you get, you know, who are you working for? I told him, oh, well, yeah, they pay more.

They pay more anyway. So that's why you're getting that sort of money. Do you know what's really interesting, Rangan? The company, which is Royal Mail, by the way, that's who I worked for at the time. Royal Mail basically contacted me, another office, and said, we hear that you have this experience and you're going to be leaving to work for Argos.

That's who I got the job for in Milton Keynes. And I went, yes. And I went, how much are they paying you? And I said, oh, they're paying me £18,000 plus a company car. And they went, Daryl, please come and see us immediately. We need to have a word. Anyway, I went to see them and they offered me a job. What was really interesting was I got paid far more. you know, so it's like 25,000. So imagine four times what I was

getting paid back then, plus a company car. I was promoted higher than my previous boss. My boss still, or former boss, tried to block my transfer, did everything she could to stop me going to this, you know, new position. She was like, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure you're not going to be working and earning that sort of money. I mean, can you imagine, you know? So you didn't leave in the end. You actually, you got, the company Royal Mail gave you a better offer and you decided to stay yeah i decided to stay because i wanted you know of course i had the benefits of of you know having built up uh several years of service um and they really bit my arm off for someone listening to

this who may think race has nothing to do with this they may say daryl look um you know it's tough when you start out in the world right you've got to earn your stripes you've got a lots of people don't get the jobs they want to get they have to do work experience to build it up um yeah you know and this is not what i think just to be really clear um just what is how can you be sure that this is to do with racism? Okay, so, well, you know, when you see your other colleagues not being treated in the same way.

Yeah. But even so, you know, let's just say they were working harder than I. Let's assume that was the case. I suppose it's when you have the accumulated experience of having other situations. So as I became more experienced, as it became easier for me to get interviews,

as I started developing this experience, when I made the decision, for example, that I wanted to work for Microsoft. So in the mid-90s, you know, 96, so Microsoft was the biggest tech company by far. Windows 95, people may or may not remember that. I remember thinking, I have to work for Microsoft. That's my dream. That's my goal. And I remember going for my first round of interviews and it was, I mean, it was so difficult. Again, it was sort of like,

you know, what school did you go to? What school did your parents go to? Like, who do you know? I'm like, I don't know these people. I don't have those connections. You know, there are quite a few obstacles, but it was like, but your experience is incredible. You know, your qualifications are incredible. And I remember thinking to myself, because of that experience,

I actually don't want to work for you. I want to actually work for an investment bank and make more money. That's what I decided. I was like, you know what, I'm just going to go for the money. Because of the questions they asked you? Yeah, because of the questions that I was asked. Here we go again.

It's like, here we go again. I just can't be bothered doing this over and over again. Yeah, it's like, here we go again, here we go again. And I suppose probably the most stark examples of where it's definitely racism. And again, it's still kind of covert, but here's just two examples. So one, several years later, I was sent to a satellite office to do some work, and I was going to be managing the building for the day. So I was very senior at that stage. And it's like, Dal, can you work at a satellite office and manage them for the day?

Yeah, sure. I get to the office, and the receptionist says, can you go and get changed? So I'm wearing like, I've got my cufflinks in, I'm like in a three-piece suit, I'm looking pretty dapper, right? I'm like, what do you mean change? Like, is there some dress policy here? I've got no other clothes to change into, but I'm like, okay, I'll go and check. So I go into this room and like, I'm not seeing anyone, but I'm like, okay, I'll go and check. So I go into this room and like, I'm not seeing anyone changing. I'm like, I wonder what this is about. I go back to reception and she's like, look, I've already told you.

I told her who I was. I said why I was here. She's like, go and get changed. I then realized it was the changing room for the cleaners. That's what it was the changing room for the cleaners that's what it that's what it was and you know I came back and I was like I asked to see the most senior person there and there was there were so many apologies oh we sorry we didn't realize before you were cleaning why did you think I was a cleaner what you know when I told I already told you why I was here and there was

and there was some recompense there was you know there were people were disciplined for what what happened to me on on that day but there were also other experiences where like i said i had job offers before being seen so telephone interviews and and so you especially when they wanted somebody in the next day or right away so there wouldn't be time to see you face to face it'd be like we'll do an interview over the phone and we'll, we've already seen your CV. Yeah, you've got great experience. Come on in, Daryl Edwards. You know, we, they can't tell from my name on my CV, what my heritage is, right? I get to the office. I remember once sitting in a reception, there were three of us sitting down, one person to my left, one person to my right. The receptionist, the boss came down. Oh, who's, where's Mr. Edwards? Oh, he's just sitting over there. She points at

me. He comes over. He looks at me, looks to my left, looks to my right. He says to the person on my left, oh, you must be Mr. Edwards. And I'm kind of like, actually, no, I'm not going to say anything. He goes, no, it's not me. He kind of looks at me, looks at the other person. Oh, I don't think, yeah. He goes back. I thought you said he was there. Yeah, he is there.

He's right there. She points at me. He comes over. The same thing happens to the person on my right. Looks at him. Oh, Mr. Edwards. Goes to shake his hand. He's like, no, I'm not Mr. Edwards.

He looks at me, the only other person there, and goes, hmm, no, it obviously can't be him. He goes back. Same thing happens. He then comes to me. He's looking down. He's looking at the floor. He's like going bright red.

He obviously recognizes what he'd done. He'd obviously recognized his prejudice. And he was like, I'm so, so so sorry and as I was taking the stairs with him to go to start working my first day he was like please don't report me to hate human resources you know he's like honestly it was a genuine mistake and I said to him frankly I was like no there was no you there is no excuse whatsoever for you not addressing us all and asking us all who here is Mr. Edwards. You just didn't assume that I could be the person you spoke to on the phone who's now turned up and has this skin complexion.

It's as simple as that. And unfortunately, I have many, many, many more of those examples. So the more experience I got, I think I assumed that it was always going to get better. You know, like, is this going to be good enough for me not to be challenged? When will be the day that I will only be viewed on my experience? And so I internalized that by deciding

I just have to be the best. That's what I have to do. I have to be far better than any other candidates that they see today. That was my decision. That was my thought process. I'll just quickly finish this part in the work. I remember the computer manuals we used to use. So before Google, you had to look up commands. And I remember going to an interview once and deciding I was going to memorize every single page of this manual. Anything they asked me, I'm going to know it. I'm going to learn it by rote. There was no need to do that. That's why they're reference manuals, right? There was no need to learn those things by rote. But I recognized that I had to excel

so that when they saw me, they're just like, oh my goodness, is this guy got a photographic memory? We have to hire him. We don't care, you know, we don't care what his heritage is. That's a situation and the stage that I got to in my career where I felt that, you know, I still didn't feel good enough, even with all those accomplishments, even with all those achievements, even with getting that fat paycheck and going, look how successful I am. And look at the big house I live in and look at the fast car that I drive. And haven't I done well for myself? And now my mom can be proud, even though I didn't become Dr. Edwards. But look, mom, look what I've achieved.

I didn't become Dr. Edwards. But look, mom, look what I've achieved. But I still was subjected to exactly the same behavior in so many different ways. I've heard you say before that you've been stopped many times when driving your car, whether it's the Aston Martin or whether it's your first car, right? Yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference. And i can honestly say with no exaggeration and this includes me not owning a car for the last 10 years i hire one if i need to right so imagine um at least 100 times that's the very conservative number of times that i've been stopped okay let's just pause it there daryl the minutes i think this is a key point so you're saying that in your lifetime you have been stopped by police whilst driving

at least 100 times yeah at least easily 100 now that is stark that for people listening who listening, who, you know, question whether racism still exists or discrimination, that alone should, you know, should make you stop and think and go, wow, have you, the listener, experienced that? Have you ever felt when you're driving to see your parents or to work that, hey, you know what, I may get stopped here. And it's, I'm pretty sure there was, because I've heard you talk about this before, that any sort of reason was made up, right? There often was no reason to stop you at all. Yeah, there was no reason at all. And some of those experiences, unfortunately, were by one of the most harrowing experiences was when i was stopped at gunpoint and and um yeah i mean it was it was very traumatic and i remember thinking to myself am i going to be killed just because of the car that i drive when was that daryl that would

have been in the two two thousands so that would have been probably about 2007, 2008, I think it was. So that's not that long ago. We're just talking about just over 10 years ago, right? Not that long ago. So let's go to that instance. So you were driving. Do you know why you were stopped and why you were at gunpoint? Really hope you're enjoying the conversation so

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australia you can get your 20 off code by going to vivobarefoot.com forward slash livemore. Yeah, so I'm in my, at that point, I'm driving my Aston Martin, you know, James Bond's favorite motor. So I'm driving a really nice car. I remember a police motorbike came up to the side of me and kind of started to flag me over. And I'm like thinking, oh, you know, maybe, you know, again, maybe there's something wrong with the car. Maybe something's happened. Maybe there's a cavalcade coming through. You know, sometimes that happens. Like the royal family are coming past, so they want to make sure.

But, you know, he basically started then, once he waved me, he was like telling me to go into like a car park, like a supermarket car park. So I go into this car park. And then next thing you know there's many more police officers arriving and of course again i'm still thinking well maybe something's happened maybe you know like lots of things happen i wonder what's happened so i so you know the first thing that happens as soon as they they come to my to look at the car and I, and I'm, I wind the window down.

And, you know, they're like immediately like, get the F out of the car. Did we tell you to wind down your window? You know, get the F out of the car. Like, okay, okay. Sorry. Obviously, you know, you get out of the car, you know, guns are pointed at you. Like what, you know, what's happened, what's happening? Why is, why are they pointing guns at me? And I'm like, what do, can I say, you know, I I'm like why are you pointing a gun at me you know don't ask us any questions you know we can do what you want

you know and then they just said to me is the car yours yes it's mine do you have any proof yeah I've actually got you know I've got my V5 with me I've got the ownership document because I've been stopped so many times so I have that I've got all the paperwork you, so I make sure I was really prepared. But it wasn't about ownership of the car, because even though they had that documentation,

they had my proof of ID and all those other things, and they did all the calls, the conversations that were had whilst that was happening, you know, the conversations like, so how can you afford a car like this? What sort of work do you do? that were had whilst that was happening. You know, the conversations like, so how can you afford a car like this? What sort of work do you do? I work in the city of London and I work for Merrill Lynch or whoever I worked for at the time, investment bank. Oh, you think you're better than us, do you? You know, those are the conversations you'd have.

You know, you're trying to disrespect me because you're trying to devalue my worth as a police officer like no you asked me what i did for a living and i've told you without any i don't want to be cheeky i don't want to to be flippant because i know what could happen and you say that you know what could happen right what do you mean by that are you talking about what happened in america like when you say you know what could happen i think this is very illuminating for people you've been stopped many many times in your life before you've seen all these videos of uh brutality to black people by police in america you've grown up in the 90s, you would have seen the Rodney King, what happened to Rodney King

and the LA riots. Were you scared for your life in that moment? Oh, for sure. Definitely. Especially when you're having a gun pointed at you. Of course. And this is you as a successful guy working in the city,

working hard, buying an expensive car because you've chosen to do that. Yeah. And you're scared for your life and you haven't done anything. I was petrified. But of course, I didn't want to show that fear because even that you feel will make the situation worse. If I show that I'm being intimidated, then that's probably going to make them, you know, again, I'm being bullied here. I'm being bullied. So, yeah, I'm thinking about what I'm going to say.

I'm thinking about when is this going to end. I feel like that five-year-old. I feel like that 11-year-old being bullied. I feel like there's nothing that I can do about it. And let me just say to you as well, like, not all the officers were, you know, they even played good cop, bad cop. So they had an Asian police officer was there. So there were several white police officers and one Asian. And he was kind of playing good cop.

And he'd say things to me like, oh, you know, they're just jealous of you because you're just driving a nice car. You know, don't pay any attention. But I later realized, you know, don't pay any attention. But I later realized, you know, and then he'd say to his colleagues, you know, as soon as he'd say that to me, so I'm thinking, oh, maybe he's on my side. Then he'd go to his colleagues and he'd say, oh, you know what? He just told me that you're jealous of him because of his car. And I'm like, oh my goodness, like, I didn't say that. I didn't say anything. You said that to me.

And I'm like, oh my goodness, like, I didn't say that. I didn't say anything. You said that to me. You know, why are you trying to escalate this situation? Right? So, you know, you realize it's, again, it's not just the caliphate. It's that, you know, how they feel together as police officers, sustaining and maintaining this form of brutality it's it's beyond one individual yes it's systemic structural piece yes to it i mean daryl there's so many things

i want to touch upon here because um you know just hearing that is it is shocking it is shocking. It is, whichever way you look at it, it's shocking. It is alarming to think that it wasn't that long ago in the UK. And again, we're talking about your experience from 10, 12 years ago. This may well still be happening today. I don't know. I'm not an expert in this subject area. But what I will say is, I don't know if you're hopeful at the moment, given what's happened. And I'd love to explore whether you are or not, or whether you think you've seen this all before. And it's like, well, I have no reason to believe that anything's going to change. One thing that I see that might be different, And I'd really welcome your thoughts on this is, there seems to be an awareness. There seems to be an awareness amongst the mainstream in a way that I certainly haven't been aware of in the past. I've never seen this sort of

awareness. I'm not saying awareness is going to lead to change but i certainly know as a doctor as a human being that without awareness you could be damn sure there will be no change right so awareness is a necessary ingredient for change now it's probably not enough on its own but i think without it we're really going to struggle so you know when you see people posting their black squares because i i tell you a lot of people at the moment feel they can't do anything right so a lot of people uh who do not have black skin yes have been affected by what's happened again just to be super uh aware of the way different people uh people from different communities are feeling i'm not at all trying to compare how different people are feeling by saying

that i'm just saying there are certain people who are shocked they're they're thinking how have i been blind to this yes am i part of the problem without realizing it and so they're trying to post about it particularly i see people who've got large And so they're trying to post about it. Particularly, I see people who've got large profiles online, they're trying to post about it and they're getting hammered. If they post a black square, they're getting hammered. If they don't, they're getting hammered. If they ask for help to educate themselves, they're being told, you should educate yourself. You shouldn't be looking to other people to help educate you. And what I see is awareness, but then it's becoming quite toxic

where people are too scared to talk or ask for help. And I understand these emotions. I'm not criticizing anyone for the way they feel. But what do you think people should do? How can we use this global movement to actually create change so i mean there's a those are really great points and um i think i'm going to start about three or four points i'm going to start with the last one which was about um you know like educate yourselves we've we've been telling you about this for years. It's not my job to help you sort

this out. So that's certainly one area that I would disagree with. And I liken it in some respects to Nelson Mandela becoming president of South Africa. And even though many would argue he had a lot of justification for wanting retaliation against those who built apartheid. He decided the best way to help South Africa heal was reconciliation, was learning the lessons, acknowledging the past and trying to build on that and trying to educate both sides of the coin, all aspects of the coin, all this rainbow nation. And that's what I think is important.

So for myself, I'm not frustrated when people ask me questions. I'm actively saying to people, listen to me as a victim. If you're sincere and you really want to find out about my experience, then speak to me as a victim. You know, if you really want, if you're sincere and you really want to find out about my experience, then speak to me, speak to other people who've had similar experiences. If it's genuine, I don't think anyone is going to be upset by that. What people are upset by is when it's blatantly not genuine, when it seems like it's a token gesture. That's what makes people like myself angry. Like, why are you doing this?

Like, please take this seriously. I finally feel as if I'm getting a little bit of attention now for this problem and you're minimizing it. You're making it superfluous. So I would say certainly reconciliation, recognizing that you do have to put the work in it can't all be done for you right you have to do some of the hard work because it's a lot to unravel there's a lot to understand um the one about the second one point i think was about it's difficult to know what the right

thing to do is you know it's difficult to understand what you're going through i've never been i've never been through anything like that. And I'm kind of liking it to, you know, me being male and me, if I was sitting in a room with women and I said, can you please tell me about your experiences being women and in relation to sexism? And it was open. You know, you can say whatever you want. Tell me exactly how you feel.

Tell me how you felt about men. Tell me, you know, just be honest. Raw, brutal, honest. They would have hundreds, thousands of stories of all different, you know, extremities, but they will all have this shared and collective experience. And I am sure as a fellow human being that I wouldn't be sitting there

all the way through their storytelling going, well, you probably out too late at night, weren't you? Well, you probably did something to cause all those events. Well, I'm a man, I don't understand. Do you know what I mean? Like, I know as a human being that I would not have that attitude. I'd be like, Darrell, just shut the heck up and listen to what these women have been through. And you can't understand. You may never have a similar experience, but hopefully you can empathize. You have sisters, you have a mother, you know, you have a daughter, you know, female friends, you have a female partner.

You know, there are some parallels you can draw that have nothing to do with me as a male. So that's the second thing I want to stress. Like people need to just recognize this is a humanity, People need to just recognize this is a humanitarian problem, and we're all involved in this. The last point, which I think you raised, was this kind of – well, there's two more, actually, but one was about influencers, white influencers saying, we stand with you. We want to be allies. We oppose black squares.

And from my point of view, I was very happy with every single black square that I saw. Anyone posting anything in relation to this, I had a mini jump for joy every time I saw it. And I would go to those profiles and I'd be like, hey, thank you so much. Thank you for standing with me. But unfortunately, what I also saw was a lot of hate

directed at the original poster why are you talking about this what has it got to do with you all lives matter etc etc etc and this is what i liken it to. If I posted as a man, you know, cervical cancer matters. It's cervical cancer day. And I have, you know, a pink square with a hashtag, cervical cancer matters. It's, you know, we need to talk about this. There were too many women dying of this, et cetera, you know, we need to talk about this, there are too many women dying of this, etc, etc, etc. I wouldn't expect people to say, Darrell, what about all the other cancers?

Darrell, you're not even female. Why are you posting about cervical cancer? You know, Darrell, why, you know, there are more people dying from breast cancer, Darrell, than cervical cancer. Why aren't you mentioning that? So this is what's insidious about this, will all lives matter? Because whenever we're talking about other areas that are important, like mental health, do you ever record a time when you posted a mental health post

when there was a special awareness day or awareness week and somebody saying, well, what about type 2 diabetes? You know, what about all the physical problems that can happen with humans? Why are you focused on anxiety and depression? And, you know, like that's the only problem in the world. No, it isn't the only problem. We just happen to be highlighting

and putting a spotlight in this. So why is it i i think these are brilliant examples daryl and i think it really helps provide perspective on this because you're right a lot of people are saying this is ridiculous all lives matter all lives matter um and most people i know who were talking about black lives matter say yeah all lives do matter but it's just at the moment we're trying to put a focus on black lives but why is it such a controversial area why do people accept it over um you know a mental health day you can post about it but no one's gonna hammer you and attack you that you're not posting about physical health or type 2 diabetes why is

it what's going on there is it because it's too uncomfortable for people and they don't like looking there yes it's very uncomfortable people feel as if it's where you know we're talking about blame um and no people are just saying just take a look at this seriously just like with me too there's a lot of backlash you know during the me too movement to people saying you know what are you talking about it isn't really a problem you of backlash you know during the me too movement to people saying you know what are you talking about it isn't really a problem you know like men can get raped too i mean it's just ridiculous i mean even when i'm saying this out loud it's ludicrous it's ridiculous if women are talking about something that they suffer disproportionately from in comparison to men, whether it's equal pay to, you know, female genetic mutilation to, you know,

all of the things that are predominantly female issues where men tend to be the aggressors, in most cases, of course, not all. But again, imagine if somebody posted that that and i was like what about when men are abused by women you know like just can you imagine how ludicrous that is all people get abused imagine me saying that you know all people get abused what why are you just why are you just focusing on on female abuse this is the problem. There's a lack of empathy. And going right back to the beginning, the reason why there's a lack of empathy, this has been ingrained in so many of us

for such a long time that we don't feel the human empathy. We don't feel it in the same way. There was a study in The Lancet. I think it was about 12,000 or 35,000 people that took part. And they looked at the social aspects of somebody dying. So an unarmed black person dying, what a black person would feel about it. And an unarmed white person dying, and what a white person would feel about it. In general, when the unarmed white person dying and what a white person would feel about it.

In general, when the unarmed white person would die, so there was no other circumstances, no extenuating circumstances, the white person would say, that is an individual event, it's a relatively unique event, and it has nothing to do with me. It's tragic, it's sad, but nothing to do with me.

A black person, on the other hand, in general, would internalize that event. They would say, that could have been me. That wasn't an isolated incident. That could have been me, it could have been my brother, it could have been my cousin. It could have been my uncle. It could have been my friend. So we internalize this. We maintain this trauma. We take it on board, this emotional stress of this. And if I would say as a part of the solution is if that human has felt the same way about these acts that it could have been me you know that person being brutalized that could have been me you know if i was born female that

could have been me if i was born in another country that could have been me if we started feeling this way i think there'll be i would feel there'd be more compassion and you wouldn't see people feeling proud of the fact that they can say, this is only, you know, I'm sure you've seen these ones, Rangan. If I was a, let's say I was a white influencer and I posted the black square on Tuesday, people would say to me, white people would say to me, Dar people would say to me, Darryl, you're a movement guy. Why are you talking about, you should only be talking about movement. You should only be talking about play. You know, you should only be talking about health. Well, social issues are also

part of health and wellbeing. So, you know, I'm not talking about this because I'm saying I'm an expert. I'm talking about this because I want saying I'm an expert. I'm talking about this because I want to help highlight this issue. I'm talking about this because this is just the focal point. And again, I wouldn't expect somebody to say on Mental Health Day, well, Daryl, you're not an expert with mental health. Why are you posting it? You know, well, I've had mental health issues, so I probably do have a right to post.

But even if I didn't, I can still empathize. I can still sympathize. I can still be compassionate. I can still utilize good sources of information that may help somebody who's looking at this. It isn't just about me. And I think that's really important to all those who are on the fence of, well, don't all lives matter? Of course all lives matter, but they have to be seen in the same way.

So please listen to us when we're talking about these experiences because many of us have felt uncomfortable because we feel like it's Groundhog Day. We've been repeating this again and again and again, and we accept it as part and parcel of life. And if there is going to be a change, if there is an awakening, one of the things that I feel is definitely happening is the window of discussion

has extended. That's probably the difference now. It's not just a blip. Tamir Rice, you know, there were so many of these individuals over the last few years that we've seen because people have now had mobile phones recording these graphic incidents of death. But now it's like people are still talking about George Floyd. You and I are talking about this. It wasn't just what happened 10 days ago. And hopefully people will continue to talk about this. I certainly won't veer away from this conversation anymore. Even myself, I've run away from this conversation.

You know, I've waited for people to ask me, you know, Darrell, why is there a lack of representation, do you feel? Why are you the only Black person at this conference? Why is there not greater representation and diversity in this group? You know, I wait to be asked. And then I'm like, okay, I can tell you why. Thank you for asking. That's the second time I've been asked in five years.

Ooh, isn't this great to be given this platform? But I'm always thinking that. I'm always wondering why. Why do you feel, Daryll you couldn't bring this up before because um what what's really interesting for me listening to you talk listening to these various incidents where you're at gunpoint or you're the repeated racial discrimination you face in your work life your professional life no matter how far up the chain you go, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You still have to prove yourself or you still have the perception

that you have to prove yourself. But what does that do to your psyche about your self-worth? You mentioned earlier on in the conversation, you feel as if you're not enough, right? And I know as a doctor that those sort of emotions are incredibly toxic. They're incredibly toxic because they stay inside you. They eat away at you, you know, week after week, month after month, year after year. I've become aware of this myself very, very recently. And a few weeks ago, I released a podcast with the ex-surgeon general in America, Vivek Murthy, who was an Indian doctor by heritage, who was appointed the surgeon general for America by the Obama administration. We had just a phenomenal

conversation. And for people who are listening who didn't hear that conversation, I, for the very first time publicly, explained how I was sitting in a room at my publisher's a couple of years ago as the only non-white person in the room, which again is not unusual. And I don't really ever think anything of it. That's sort of been my life. So I just, you know, get on with it. But I heard them, it wasn't the publisher, I'm keen to add here, but in that meeting, they were just telling me how, you know, we didn't have really good distribution on your first book, The Four Pillar Plan. You know, that book was a huge success in spite of the fact that I wasn't in supermarkets or on all the bookshop shelves. There was a bit of a grassroots movement

about it, which led to its success. But they said your second book it's brilliant we've got um we've got a lot more distribution one of the major retailers wouldn't stock your first book because they already had a book by an indian doctor on the shelves and i said that publicly uh on that podcast a few weeks ago and it's opened up a can of worms for me, Daryl, because I didn't realise how much that had bothered me. And I've realised that I didn't feel able to say anything in that moment. Part of me thought, right, check this out, part of me thought, oh yeah, you know, that's quite reasonable, actually. I'm so ingrained in this and i've been so conditioned by my upbringing which is don't talk about this stuff keep your head down work hard just make

sure you're better that it's almost the immigrant mentality it's drilled into you you've got to be better than the person next to you if you're going to get ahead very much echoing what you said earlier on in this conversation but since i've said that daryl i've i've been teary i felt really insecure on days and i've started to realize that in many ways i feel i've struggled to be myself my entire life because i felt that my entire life because I felt that me being me is not good enough so and it and it hammers home that point that you mentioned before you you have that feeling inside that no matter how high you climb up that chain you've still got to be yes yeah yeah and then you think hold on a minute what are you complaining about right most of society would judge you as being successful by society's standards right they'd say well you know what are you moaning about i am not part of the

black community right i have not experienced i have experienced racism in my life for sure and i would argue i continue to do so um but i'm not at all trying to suggest it is any way the same as that which you if i've never been stopped in my car right i've never been stopped i've never driven around scared that i'm gonna get stopped that's the truth and and so i on on your in terms of you personally daryl how has this affected your character your psyche how you feel about yourself um well how you feel about yourself? Well, it's impossible. I mean, I posted on social media about this a while ago,

and I will certainly say that I feel as if, I think I put in my quote that I feel as if I'm sleeping, always sleeping with one eye open and one eye closed. That's what this kind of systemic racism, this feeling of living is like. You have to be aware that it could happen at any time and that it's always been a part of your existence from the very first instance. And that's continued to happen. That's what it feels like.

So I feel there is certainly an additional chronic stress, emotional stress that has stayed with me. And I can certainly say that, yes, I have been really successful. I was far more successful then than I am now. You know, I'm trying to make my way in building a second career, you know, so I know I sacrificed a lot to make this change. But at the same time, I know that there is this legacy, there is this additional burden that I'm carrying.

And what I'm carrying is not just my 50 years on the planet. You know, I'm also carrying the burden of my parents and my grandparents and my ancestors that were part of the slave trade and what's happening to those like me. And discussions and discussions about your experience with this system, don't trivialize it. Of course, there's severity, there's extremities, and this iceberg is vast, but it's still bad. And so you may have had less severe instances, incidents, but I would say you've probably had just as frequent incidents as I, just as many hidden ones where you had no idea you were being

affected by it. And because of the success, just like when I was successful, there were so many things that are passing you by, actually, because of this level of success, you're like, oh, you know, there's all that world that doesn't affect me anymore. And I certainly felt that for some time, like, oh, thank goodness, this doesn't affect me anymore. I can now, you know, now I could go to certain restaurants and this was, this wasn't about money. Right. But I knew that I could go to certain restaurants and that there wouldn't be a problem because of how I was dressed, that I wouldn't have been able to do so

if I was dressed differently or if I wasn't earning that sort of money or I didn't have that sort of station. So I recognize there was a privilege that came from having more money. And I think people need to be aware that there is privilege also based on just the fact of the country you're born

or the heritage that you carry. And that affects us all. We all are part of this. We're so interconnected. 99.9% of our DNA is identical. All seven plus billion people on the planet. I mean, just imagine that. If we truly recognize that fact, that we are so similar,

we are so similar. There is more. Do you know, here's another interesting fact, which came from the, I can't remember the name now, the American Society of Human Genetics, right? the American Society of Human Genetics, right? There is more ethnic diversity between me and you, right? Sorry, less ethnic diversity between me and you than there is between all people of African descent.

You know? So I can have far more in common genetically with a white person than with another black person. Yeah. Right. So, you know, if you look, if you actually look at the scientific evidence in relation to the study of genes, if you look at the Human Genome Project, which tells us that we're 99.9 plus percent identical, if we realize that we all have a common ancestor, if we recognize that if we look at the historical texts, you know, of Greek civilization, of the Roman civilization, if I'd have been told at school that they were black, well, they weren't even termed black, they were African at the time, because there was no

definition of black or white in those texts. But if I've been told at school, there was a black African emperor, Roman emperor. And Leptis Magna was where he ruled the rest of the Roman Empire from. And he was buried in York. And I think his son was involved in building Hadrian's Wall. So imagine as a British citizen, a black British citizen, I wasn't told that somebody who looked like me was part, had played such a pivotal role in the Roman Empire. We are told that it was purely a Eurocentric civilization.

That's what we're taught in history. You know, usually history is written by the victors. It's usually written by those who want to say, this is what happened that portrays us in a better light, which justifies the actions of the past. So books are burnt, history is rewritten, you know, language changes. So in the 14th, 15th century, when there was this justification for the atrocities that commenced the transatlantic slave trade,

you know, language changed. Black became bad, you know, language changed. Black became bad. Language changed. Black male, blacklisted. White became associated with what was angelic. Black, what was deemed a sin. And that's still part of our language today. It's just so part and parcel of our language that we don't think twice that blows my mind that is how deeply ingrained this is in life right into our psyches it's actually in the way we actually use words and our brain thinks so it's it's just built in yeah it's built it's built into the language yeah those that black is inferior as inferior. And remember the genesis of that language changing. And it's the same in other European languages. It isn't just the British language. All European languages have created this distinction around that time

to justify that it's okay. It's like a subliminal messaging. You know, oh, yes, if you're black, you're bad. Black is associated with all the horrible things. If we are truly to create long-lasting change, then I guess we would have to change some of our language and start to slowly erode out these words like blackmail, like blacklist, and actually have alternative words. And for people who think that's not possible, we've always changed words, right? Words, you know, language evolves constantly. And if we are going to take this seriously and say, actually, enough is enough, it's time for every single human being to be treated in the same way, with equality,

with dignity, without prejudice, without discrimination, then why can't we change our language? Yes, it may take a while. It may take some time. But that gives me a lot of hope anyway. I mean, Daryl, look, there are so many things we could talk about. I sort of do want to just talk about where you're at today with what you do, because we got to know each other through the wellness space and i've always loved your work um you know your books i think are fantastic your whole philosophy around movement uh and play i think it's fantastic your ted talk which came out recently or you know it's just fantastic you know how many it's done really well hasn't it how many people have you it's about 600 and odd thousand uh now so so um so yeah i'm really i'm really really pleased an interesting you want some interesting trivia about ted talks would love to so if you get 50 if you get 50,000 views you're already in the top five percent of all tech talks so that's so that gives you an idea

of of of the achievement of, you know, even getting, say, 100,000 views or a million views in like, you know, the views that you've accumulated. So, yeah, so I'm really pleased that it's resonating with people, that people have watched it, and people are realizing, you know, we need to, just like this problem that we've been discussing so far, we need to think differently. We need to view this problem with physical inactivity in a different way. We need to provide different solutions.

at the moment, given that we have more information available than ever before, more gyms, more exercise programs, more exercise books, we are the most sedentary we've ever been. So access to information isn't necessarily the solution. It's how can we change the implementation strategies? How can we change the environment to make it easier for people to become more active in all areas of society so with my animal moves decks for example i made the decision well can you before you go into the story can you explain what they are because i think those animal moves decks are brilliant super super helpful for people um so maybe before you tell that story you could explain what they are so people listening yeah can get basically a set of oh here's something here's here's one i made earlier

but no they're basically they're basically cards like playing cards but they're fitness cards they're movement cards um and i created them because I wanted to create like an unstructured, you know, play is often about something which isn't structured. And it's about engagement and having fun. So I wanted to create a way of taking my Animal Moves book, which has a regimented kind of 28 days program, into a way that's a bit more freeform. You know, you pick up a card, you do like a movement that's a bit more free form you know you pick up

a card you do like a movement stack you do something else you come back you pick another card you interact you tag team here's your card here's my card so I basically created this deck these decks of cards where you can play games with movement rather than viewing them as exercises with movement rather than viewing them as exercises. And that expanded from my adult version, which is my first deck, to a kid's, a junior version. So I have a version for kids like 14, sort of 7 to 14. And then I have a version now for very young kids,

which is my last deck that was released between 3 and 6 years old. So there's a bit more education. There's a bit of discussion about habitats. There's a bit more discussion about them not having to read, for example. You know, they don't have to be able to read to be able to fully engage with the cards. And then I have one for office workers who want to, whether they've got a standing desk or seated, but I want to get a bit more movement into their day.

So, yeah, so I created this really useful resource. It's shipped now to over about 45 countries globally. So I'm like, really, I'm like, it's been incredible that people have demanded this and they've been ordering it from the UK. So, you know, I don't have international distribution or anything. It's like they come to my website, they're like, we want your product and I live in Chile or wherever it is. So that's been fascinating.

But the last point is, I suppose, it's about this diversity question. So if you buy my decks, I know you've got a few of my decks, you'll see that I represent lots of different children, lots of different heritages in the decks. And it was a purposeful decision. I wanted people to feel that they were represented

when they looked at these cards and they they were represented when they looked at these cards and they saw other people when they looked at these cards. But what's fascinating about me creating them are some of the conversations I had. So a couple I had was one asking me with the adult deck, I don't think there's a blonde lady in the deck. There's a blonde man. There were other European heritage individuals in the deck, but there just didn't happen to's a blonde man. There are other, you know, European heritage individuals in the

deck, but I just didn't happen to be a blonde woman. And I got chastised by somebody saying like, oh my goodness, you've got all these different people, but why not a blonde woman? I'm like, well, blonde women are quite well represented, you'll find in popular culture. And I do have a blonde man. It's not like I'm like, I don't want any blondes to appear in my deck. You're not blondest. And I also had another question, which is a little bit more difficult conversation around, do you have a different type of deck? So when I first launched the cards, the junior cards, you know, I was asked, like, do you have a different type of these cards? I'm like, what do you mean?

And they kind of assumed that this was a diverse edition, you know, the kind of United Colors of Benetton or Coca-Cola edition. And I was like, no, no, that's, I'm like, this is the edition. There was no other version. And I'm kind of like, actually, what do you mean by that? You know, I'm kind of playing dumb, playing naive.

You know, what do you mean? And they said to me like, you know, know, I'm kind of playing, playing dumb, playing naive. You know, what do you mean? And they said to me like, you know, something a bit more kind of vanilla, something a little bit more like that my kids could relate to. And I, and I just replied, I was like thinking,

I'm not, I'm not going to get a sale out of this. And I just replied and said, actually, I think your kids will still get just as much out of this. Even though there are people of different colors on in represented in this deck but that's that's a sort those are sort of questions that i that i had and it makes you realize that if i again if i was white and i produced this deck

of cards with all white people i probably wouldn't get any questions at all you know it will be accepted that would that's how it is that's pretty much how it's always been i may get somebody saying why don't you have a bit more diversity but you know it's kind of accepted that we we expect to see a certain type of individual when we look at fitness and health and well-being yeah and and and and that is played out in the health and wellness space isn't it in terms of what we're seeing i mean genuinely i think you are of course we all live in our little um bubbles in terms of the social media world that we inhabit and what we see but i have to say for me i you do seem to be one of the rare black faces in that world

um there are there are others uh but i'll tell you before the before the you know the the the tragic death of george floyd i remember as i was processing what i brought up with vivek on the on the podcast and i start to think about race and I start to think about these things. I looked at the top 100 podcasts on Apple in the UK. And I went through all 100 of them at the time. And it changes from day to day. And I think I was the only non-white presenter in the entire 100 um the the only non-white solo presenter of the podcast and i thought and again these are things i've never really looked at before daryl i think i've shut my um i think i've just got on with things as my dad told me to right just get your head down work hard just keep doing what you do. But once

you start looking, you start seeing it and you think, is it true that it's just talent that rises to the top? No, clearly that is not the case because there is no way we can justify it. Even if you just look at the proportion of different ethnicities in the UK population, ethnicities in the UK population. Now it has changed as Apple are now doing a special promotion to try and encourage people to look at podcast hosts who've got black skin, trying to look at the history. And it's brilliant to see. So that has now changed. How long it will change for, that I don't know. But it is interesting when you start looking for this, you will start to see it everywhere. And going back to that piece at the start about awareness, that can only be a good thing. Because

I'm convinced, Daryl, that two weeks ago, a lot of people, and probably myself included to a certain degree, were walking around blind and were not aware. And though, you know, and I know you posted about this on your Instagram a few days ago, some brilliant documentaries on Netflix to watch that will open your eyes. I saw 13th again last night, and it is a harrowing watch. If anyone listening and you want like a 90 minute documentary that's going to really help you understand some of this history in a very informative and engaging way, I would definitely, definitely recommend it. I've only just started watching the other one, which you mentioned, When They See Us. I can barely watch, to be honest. Yeah, you can prepare for a lot of tears, Rangan. I can barely watch.

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You can barely watch. You can barely watch. You can barely watch. You can barely watch. You can barely watch. You impactful enough and then a couple of nights ago my wife and I started on the first one and I could just feel something happening to me as I'm watching it um it is so the point I'm trying to make is for people who are interested for people who've been touched by what's gone on the world have been affected been touched by the stories that you've shared and they want

um you know to go and understand a bit more there are so many different resources but certainly i would agree with those things you highlighted on your instagram i think those documentaries are reasonable places to get some information for sure would you agree with that totally agree and it's you know it's a relatively inexpensive you know you don't need to put much time investment to get access to a lot of knowledge. So that, especially 13, for example, that crams in pretty much slave trade to the present day in terms of the African-American experience and the criminal justice system. In a very, I would say, objective way, you know, she had, as I'm sure you remember,

she had voices from both sides. She had liberal voices, she had as i'm sure you remember she had she had voices from both sides she she had liberal voices she had conservative voices you know so so i think it was it was a it was fair but the outcome is what we would expect to see if you if you see if you see this so yeah there's those are great resources great documentaries the bbc uh yeah are certainly um in in in the sort of june mid-june to end of june period are highlighting some fantastic works from a black british experience so if you want to find out about the black british experience which isn't about just wind rush that's what we many people believe is just wind rush on actually there's a 2000 year000 year legacy of Africans within the UK, within the British Isles.

Wow. Well, I'll certainly try and get all those links and put them in the show notes section, including links to your website, of course, Daryl, and your cards for people who want to buy them, which I would highly recommend. I think they're absolutely fantastic. But Daryl, just to close off this conversation,

then in view with everything that you've seen, are you optimistic? No. Okay. I'm optimistic that there will be some short-term gain. There will be some progress that will come out of this. There will be increased awareness. I certainly feel more comfortable talking about this,

and I hope that continues long-term. Where I'm less hopeful is about the dismantling of the systemic and institutionalised aspect of this. That's where I feel less hopeful because there have been lots of false dawns before. You know, 1968 Civil Rights Act in the US, Equal Discriminations Act, you know,

or Equal Opportunities Act in the UK in the 60s, you know, those were like false dawns. Everything's going to be okay now. We're legislating against discrimination, you know, it's in the statute, incredible, but things didn't really change. It just morphed into something less overt. And I have a feeling there'll be another dampening down of like, oh, we're going to have to shift. We have to shift our position slightly because there's now a new normal.

There's a new awakening. People are more aware of this. So let's find another way of maintaining the system. I don't want to end on a downer. So what I will say is, if people who are currently engaging with me, who are sending me messages, who are posting on their social media profiles, who are watching these documentaries, if they, after having this engagement, then go out and shout and call out when they see examples of this. If they demand more diversity in their workplace, if they challenge people, if somebody posts on your wall something vile,

don't just delete it and censor it to pretend it didn't happen. Comment back and say, this is not acceptable. And if I lose you as a follower, I'm happy to do so. Those are the actions I feel that we need, no matter what your background. If we all did this, if we all said, I'm going to shout and speak out about this, the world will be a better place. So that's what I'm hopeful for,

that people will start taking that action on board more and more. I really hope so. Please, please do so. Yeah, Daryl, that is, I think, is a fitting place to end our conversation today, leave with a message of hope, a message of things that people can do. They can learn, they can educate, they can listen,

they can show empathy. All of these things can be done. As human beings, we have the capacity for all of those things. But Daryl, stay well. Thanks for your time today. I'll see you soon. Cheers, Morgan. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. So what did you think of that i hope you found it interesting eye-opening perhaps and i'm pretty sure that all of us have something to reflect on after hearing that conversation of course please do let daryl and i know what you thought of the conversation today on social media he is at fitness explorer Instagram. I would also highly recommend that you check out Daryl's work and his movement philosophy. You can hear a lot more about that

all the way back on episode seven of this podcast. It is well worth a listen if you've not already heard it. Now, Daryl is someone who's doing incredible work in wellness. So as well as following him on social media, I'd really urge you to check out his brilliant TED Talk on movement, his fantastic books, as well as the Animal Moves card deck that we discussed in the conversation today. You can see links to all these things on the show notes page for this episode, which is drchastity.com forward slash 117. As usual, please do share the podcast with friends and family and really anyone who you feel would benefit

from hearing this conversation. And if you can spare 30 seconds, please do leave a review, whichever platform you'll listen to this on, like Apple Podcasts or Spotify. A big thank you to Vedanta Chatterjee for producing this week's podcast, and to Richard Hughes for audio engineering. That is it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure you have pressed subscribe, and I'll be back in one week's time with my latest conversation.

week's time with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the architects of your own health. Making lifestyle changes is always worth it. Because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time. Thank you.