Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #13 The Importance of Barefoot Shoes with Galahad Clark

Episode Date: April 11, 2018

Dr Chatterjee talks to co-founder of global footwear brand, Vivobarefoot, Galahad Clark. Galahad comes from the family behind shoe-making dynasty Clarks and he explains why he set up Vivobarefoot. They discuss why it is important to allow your feet to move naturally and what impact kids shoes can have on their future health. Show notes available at: drchatterjee.com/galahadclark Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and BBC television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier because when we feel better, we live more. We live more. Galahad Clark. Galahad, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, hi. Happy to be here. Galahad, I'd love to understand from you why you set up Vivo Barefoot. What was the inspiration behind that? I was never intended to go into shoes, having been more or less born in a shoebox in Somerset. I ended up at university in America, and to cut a long story short, because of one of my favorite music bands,

I ended up getting back into the shoe industry. So I was already making shoes when a childhood friend of mine called Tim Brennan, who was a student at the Royal College, came with a pair of Nike Harachis with the sole cut off. And he'd stitched a tennis racket cover on in place of the sole and said to me look this is the way shoes should be made and for whatever reason I just instinctively loved the idea less shoe more you and then started a long journey of development to what has become Vivo Barefoot today.

Wow, what a story. So how long ago did that happen? It's now in 2018. When did that tennis racket shoe first come about? It was like a sort of Indian moccasin, a Nike, a big Nike shoe that had been turned into a sort of Indian moccasin. And this was in the mid 2000s. I was already making a little shoe brand and it took us about three, four, five years before we got a convincing shoe. The very first Vivo barefoot shoes we made had a zip around them and the idea was that the sole was so thin it would be easily repairable and also be the only shoe you ever needed so it'd be easy to just interchange the uppers whether you wanted something a bit more sporty or more everyday for work but like all those ideas uh like trousers that turn into shorts or sofas

that turn into beds they uh and and neither particularly good trousers or shorts. And we ran into that same problem with the shoes. So the zip on zip off shoes didn't work in the end. And so it wasn't until about 2009 that we came up with a convincing commercial version of Vivo Barefoot. Wow. And how is the brand going? How are people responding to your and Vivo Barefoot's philosophy around shoes? science or education behind it. So it was more through instinct. And it wasn't until later on that I subsequently got educated in the biomechanics and the barefoot condition. And actually, it was a very small business at first, just a sub-brand of another brand. But more and more people started writing

into us telling us what incredible experience they're having in the shoes we started wearing them more and more every day couldn't wear anything else and so one thing led to another and then it was in 2012 that we finally really launched it as a standalone brand and vivo barefoot really started on the journey that it is today so wow it was a it was a you know years of education really from a starting point of where you know I believed in the conventional wisdom of the shoe industry and it took me you know quite a lot of years of meeting various experts of unravelingravelling that understanding and ramping up my understanding of the way the foot works in its natural state and, you know, ultimately just being dedicated to

wanting to make shoes that allow your feet to do their natural thing. Wow. Well, Galahad, thanks for sharing that. It's really interesting to me that you had to sort of unlearn a lot of the things that you had been taught by the shoe industry it reminds me a lot of things that I'm doing with medicine now and trying to sort of spread the word about how much our lifestyles including nutrition but including what we put on our feet actually play a role in how we feel and often I find that I'm just kind of unlearning some of the things that I've been taught over the last 10, 15 years. And going back to basics a lot of the time, you also mentioned there, Galahad, that, you know, once you started wearing them, you could almost not wear anything else. And, you know, for me, that very much echoes my experience.

So, you know, for the listeners, I think it's probably quite interesting to share how I sort of got into wearing Vivo Barefoot and why now they're the only shoe that I wear, my wife wears, my children wear, and even my 78-year-old mother wears. And for people who've read my recent book, The Four Pillar Plan, I gave us a lot of detail about how I was afflicted with severe back problems. So a good 10 years, you know, it really impacted me physically, emotionally, I had to give up doing a lot of the things that I loved. And I went round, you know, trying to see all these experts, but what's going on my back, and people would say, oh, you're six foot six and a half, you're really tall, you're just gonna have

to put up with back pain. I thought, really, you know, I can't persuade myself that, you know, in my 20s and my early 30s that actually I have to have backache for the rest of my life. And, you know, the journey that I share in my book is how I came across someone called Gary Ward, who, you know, really believes in the importance of our feet. And if our feet are working well, a lot of other muscles in our body work well, you know, as a downstream consequence of that. Since, you know, after 10 years, you know, I studied with Gary and he looked at my right foot and he said, that's your problem. Your right foot doesn't work as it should do. And that is having a knock-on consequence on your right glute muscle and your lower back pain. And he gave me a few exercises

to do, which took me three or four, maybe five minutes maximum. And I could feel instantaneously that my back felt better. And literally within days, within weeks, it was like a different person. And now I'm back to doing things that nobody ever thought I'd do, you know, back playing squash, you know, really reaching hard. And, you hard. I'm six foot seven, so to reach for some of those shots at the front of the court, it's a lot of strain on my back, but I have no doubt at all that my back can cope. It all comes down to the fact that my right foot now works better than it did five or six years ago. Interestingly enough, I was told for years I needed orthotics. I'd been to see podiatrists.

I had custom insoles made. I went through the rather laborious process of putting them in all my different shoes when I was wearing them. And something just didn't really fit for me with that. And it was Gary who showed me that actually my foot was unconditioned. Five years ago, Gal, I had a flat foot. Now I've got an arch in my foot was unconditioned. You know, five years ago, Galahad, I had a flat foot. Now I've got an arch in my right foot without insoles. And, you know, the relevance to Vivo Betterfoot is as I got tuned in to how important my feet were and how I really enjoyed feeling my feet, you know, doing the exercises and I felt alive.

I naturally then didn't like wearing these cushioned shoes that I had. And I started looking, well, you know, there's this barefoot movement is growing. That kind of makes sense to me. I'm going to try that. And why I came across you guys was I'm a UK size 13. And actually you were the only company at the time where I could get a UK size 13. So that's actually why I went with Vivo Barefoot. I thought, oh, I can get my size. And literally from there, progressively, as I got my first pair of shoes, which are, you know, some sports.

I can't remember what they were, actually. They were black and yellow, actually. They were the Evos. The Evos, yeah. One of your earlier iterations of what are now, you know, a huge range. And I just, I loved the way I felt when I wore them. And that then progressed to actually all my shoes, even my smart shoes are now Vivo barefoot shoes. And, you know, once a few years ago, I actually went to a wedding. And I thought, oh, you know, I can't wear Vivo's for this. I'm going to have to wear my

dress shoes. And interestingly enough, at the end of that wedding, I felt really niggly in my back because I just put on a shoe with a thick sole. My whole biomechanics and gait had changed. And I thought, wow. And so since then, I've actually, you know, I got in touch with you and I've now got, you know, dress shoes that actually are barefoot shoes. And I really believe in the concept. I feel it myself. You know, I see my kids, I watch my kids. And like you, I've got two young kids, and I see how they move. And I want to keep them in that sort of barefoot environment for as long as possible. And one thing I've always liked about, you know, your company's approach is that you say, well, barefoot is best, actually, it's better not to wear any shoes. But if you have to wear barefoot shoes, and I wonder if you could just elaborate on that a

little bit. Yeah, no, I think it's a bit of a public health issue that most children end up up at uh leaving school with feet that look more like shoes rather than feet yeah and a and a foot that isn't naturally shaped is necessarily not functioning as it should function and most kids then pick up you know bad movement habits by wearing padded or heeled shoes, sitting around on chairs all day long, and thus endure a life that, you know, almost inevitably in the majority of people end up in some sort of chronic pain later in life. And it can be easily avoided by just letting the foot develop naturally, letting the foot look natural. I mean, just to let you know what we're up against, I spent some time with a famous kids' shoe designer the other day

who designs for some of the biggest shoe brands in the world, in the UK and Germany and France, and we were discussing the importance of letting a child's foot develop naturally and a strong wide foot being the basis of the healthy kinetic chain as you've been talking about and she said yes but we deliberately design children's shoes so that when they're older that you know that the feet don't don't become too wide like she said to me look have you ever seen anyone that's never worn shoes before they have these big wide feet and all the toes are splayed out i said yeah that's uh that's that's what a foot looks like and she said

yeah but we we deliberately design children's shoes so that they don't become like that so that when they're older they can fit their feet into nice leather shoes. And I said, are you, you know, really, is that really what you're telling me about? And this is, you know, someone that designed shoes for the leading comfort shoe brands in Europe. And then she said, yeah, and the other thing is that, you know, in Germany, it's slightly different to in Italy, which is slightly different to in UK. There are different shapes. I said, well, what do you mean different shapes?

So, yeah, the foot shapes are different and the fashion is different. So we have to have different shapes for these different countries. So, you know, I think without even realizing it, the modern shoe industry is literally deforming children's feet and you know you as most people do end up with feet that look more like shoes than feet you end up paying for that somewhere up the up the kinetic chain yeah i absolutely agree it's a huge problem and as i say i had my own personal experience with this you know I don't think as a doctor, as someone who sees people coming in with pain a lot of the time, you know, and trying to help them get to the root cause of that,

you know, I used to send people to podiatrists. And again, I'm not saying there's an issue with that necessarily. But, you know, as I say, five years ago, my right foot was flat. It's no longer flat. And that's got nothing to do with insoles. It's because I now do exercises on those feet just for a few minutes a day. And because I'm wearing barefoot shoes, what it means is that I'm constantly feeling my feet. They're working. They're doing what feet should be doing. And for me, it's been a significant part of me not having pain anymore. And I tell you, I've been recommending barefoot shoes to patients for years,

you know, when I felt it was appropriate. And I'm hearing that a lot, you know, the feedback I'm getting. I even posted about barefoot shoes on my social media channels a few weeks ago. And the positive feedback from people was incredible. Now, I remember when I first got into this movement, I remember reading a lot about barefoot running and how some people say, no, no, you start barefoot running or you wear barefoot shoes for running and that, you know, you're going to hurt yourself. them you know I've got a really good friend in Edinburgh who's recently moved over to wearing barefoot shoes and it's been life-changing for him and he's had you know 10 to 15 year history of back niggles and hip niggles and it's impacting his ability to play sport and do what he needs to do

he's just already felt that he walks differently now that he's in a barefoot shoe he's lighter because if you don't have a huge amount of cushioning under your heel, actually you can't slam your heel down against the pavement because it hurts. So you modify the way that you walk. And I think that's absolutely beneficial for many of us. And I think if people haven't tried it, they would be surprised with how they feel. But the issue of running is, for me, if you've spent your whole life running in cushioned shoes and you're used to really heel striking very heavily, I think if you just suddenly change to barefoot shoes without any sort of preconditioning, I think, yes, you can get injured.

But I don't think that's the problem with the technology or the lack of technology, I should say. It's the problem that actually your movement mechanics you know have evolved around you wearing cushioned shoes so actually if we don't put kids in those cushioned shoes in the first place you know when you watch kids run actually that that you know very few of them that I've seen actually strike with their heels is this something that you've come across there's been a backlash against these shoes from certain courses at all. The foot is, as you know, is an amazing bit of kit with 26 bones, over 100 muscles and tendons and 200,000 nerve endings, the same as your hands.

So they're designed to be a sensory organ and a feeling, moving, sophisticated thing uh you know almost like the hand and the best way to see natural movement is to look at a four-year-old running around a swimming pool on a hot summer's day they're completely barefoot they're running as fast as they can they're laughing having fun jumping in and out of the water on concrete. And, you know, what you notice is that they, and, you know, as we all know, we're born with huge heads on long spindly spines. And they have no choice but to put their head directly above their hips, directly above their feet, making lots and lots of little steps. feet making lots and lots of little steps and you know they can run happily all day long with without getting injured and that's effectively how humans were designed to run unfortunately when padded shoes and uh sitting postures get involved we just develop these bad habits and so you know we make quite a big thing about almost saying to people, look, don't run in our shoes.

Walk before you can run and take the time to let your feet get strong before you ramp up the exercise. And just walking around every day with less shoe on does that. It's a simple thing. If you don't use it, you lose it. But when you start using it again, it's amazing how quickly the foot does regain its natural shape, how quickly the muscles get strong again, and just letting gravity do its job with every step. And as long as you're taking lots of steps every day

and not just sitting around, then the foot transforms itself so quickly, such an amazing bit of kit. So, you know, we spend a lot of time just trying to encourage people to you know almost not think about running but just start day by day step by step and just walking and if and frankly if you're not injured running then you know whatever shoes you use to run in half an hour an hour a week is much less important than how you're using your feet in your everyday life. So it's all about just under low intensity, using your feet in the

natural way. And it's amazing how quickly they'll gain their natural shape. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? It really is. I've noticed actually that, you know, on my Instagram, when I post anything of me working out, it's often in the garden or in a local park, and I am bare foot most of the time when I can be. Even in my book, there's a photo of me out with my kids in my garden in the move pillar. We're all barefoot because I really, I've always been of the opinion that my kids will probably do what they see me doing rather than what I tell them to do. So I think daddy's telling them about, you know, try and stay barefoot as much as you can, you know, let's go out and play, let's go and climb barefoot.

You know, I think it's much more powerful if daddy is also barefoot at the same time. You know, that photo in my book gets a lot of comments, actually a lot of feedback. But, you know, when you were just talking then, Galahad, it made me think about how various things are normal in different cultures. So, you know, my parents are Indian immigrants. My dad came to the UK in the early 60s and my mum came in the 1970s. And, you know, in Indian culture, you don't wear shoes in the house. So it's very normal that, you know, you take them off outside the front door and you are, you know, barefoot in the house. So it's very normal that, you know, you take them off outside the front door and you are, you know, barefoot in the house. That's just what I grew up with. And even

when I go to my friends' houses where they don't have that sort of requirement, I do actually just take my shoes off when I come in because it's just what I've always done. And then I think, well, actually in British culture, you know, or certainly a lot of my friends and their families, a lot of people sort of get up in the morning and as part of getting ready, they wear shoes. And even if they're just in the house all day, they will be wearing shoes in the house. So, you know, I just think culturally also different communities do different things with their feet. And I wonder sometimes about the downstream consequences of people getting into shoes all day, every day, so early on in life. But then the other thing I used to do, Galahad, which you might find interesting, every other summer, I would go with my mum and my dad and my brother to Calcutta, which is now called Kolkata in India. And, you know, interestingly enough, a lot of people in India, certainly a lot of the people around the house,

certainly with my memory, we were barefoot all the time. And even when I'd go and play football with my cousins, I remember I was about eight years old and my little cousin wanted me to come and play football with him and his buddies. And we went down and played barefoot. And this is something I wasn't used to in the UK, but I was out there with my cousin and his friends in India playing barefoot. And it's interesting that a lot of the population in India can actually squat for hours on end to do things because that's a part of what they do. As you say, use it or lose it. And I guess why I put it is that we are untraining our body's natural innate ability to function efficiently i watch my kids i watch

other children i watch the way that they move and i watch their their feet i think well why are we shoving these feet in big cushioned shoes and we're compressing them and you know you extend this on later on in life we've got a huge problem with bunions and i think how much of that is to do with the fact that we're shoving our feet into narrow shoes? I don't know if you've got any thoughts on what I just brought up there. Yeah, I mean, almost entirely to do with shoes. The modern shoe phenomenon is only a few generations old, whereas obviously humans have been moving around the earth for thousands of generations.

Probably one of the first tools humans ever invented were shoes. And, you know, we're lucky enough to work with a group in the Kalahari, a bushman that's still making the original hunting sandals out of eland skin. And, you know, unfortunately, humans don't have hooves or pads. So we had to come up with foot protection. And the bushmen in the Kalahari have probably been making eland sandals for 100,000 years. And they use them to run down antelope over eight hours on very hard savannah. And there isn't obviously an ounce of technology there.

And if they didn't work, we wouldn't even be here today. And then leaving Africa, obviously, to cross deserts and the mountains to populate the rest of the world, we've needed shoes, but for protection from cold and cuts. And that's it. And, you know, one of my favorite stories of indigenous shoemaking is that the the people in northern Finland in Lapland they make their shoes out of reindeer skin and they're almost foot by foot skin by skin they're just a very simple one layer thick reindeer moccasin basically and then they wear them with no socks and they just put a little bit of hay in for insulation. And they're 50% warmer and 50% lighter than any modern shoe exists. And there's now an old wives' tale almost in Lapland

that because there's been a lot of funding and the rich Scandinavian countries have looked after their indigenous people and sent up a lot of fashionable modern shoes. And I was lucky enough to go up there last year. And they were saying that there's an understanding that when you're starting to feel your knees or a bit of back pain, just go back to wearing the traditional reindeer skin moccasins. And it will clear up and they they couldn't couldn't quite make the connection but um it's amazing you know the point is that you know humans have made shoes for you know literally over a hundred thousand years probably and you know for all but the last few generations those shoes have allowed the foot to

do their natural thing. And it's only very recently that all this modern technology and new shapes that... But, you know, that extends out beyond just footwear and shoes. You know, if you think about the food industry, you know, you think about how we've eaten a certain way for hundreds of thousands of years and then in the last 50, 100, even 500 years, things have dramatically changed

and it's having a consequence. And it is interesting in how many different spheres of health, you know, going back to basics, going back to the way we have done things for, you know, thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years, is often the best solution. You know, modern tech isn't always the way to help us. Funny enough, modern technology and science is helping us understand

that. Exactly. So there's a real irony there. We need modern science to prove why what we used to do was so beneficial. You said something about this tribe in Africa, about that they would walk across, you know, very, very hard savannah. Does anyone ever come back to barefoot shoe manufacturers and say, hey, look, I understand what you're saying, but we didn't have all these concrete and tarmac roads and pavements in the past. So does that deem your argument or your philosophy less relevant? There's plenty of research to show that the hard-baked earth of Africa can be just as hard as concrete.

There's research to show rickshaw pullers in India who run around completely barefoot on hard cobbled roads have some of the most perfect feet in the world and no movement problems at all. at all and there's also um you know research to show that walking around in padded shoes in a concrete world that part of the brain that is designed to get vital information from every step from the 200 000 nerve endings you have in the soles of your feet the brain literally starts to atrophy and it's sort of linked to alzheimer's and uh brain degenerative diseases because you know as we were saying earlier if you don't use it you lose it and the body is designed with each step to get vital information you're getting the feet you're getting there's so many nerves there aren't they you're getting so much information to your brain when you when you can feel your feet and if you if you cut that, then inevitably vitality goes down.

Well, so anything you cut off from the human body, there is a consequence. You know, we're very adaptable. We can, you know, we can adapt to lots of things. So if we no longer feel our feet, you know, we switch off those nerve signals. We're not getting them and we will replace that with something else or we just lose it. nerve signals. We're not getting them and we will replace that with something else or we just lose it. Interesting you say about those sort of nerve signals that go to our brain. I tried something with my mother recently who is, you know, she's in her late 70s and a few balance issues and, you know, she's got a scoliosis in her back, there's a curve in her back. And a few years ago,

I thought, well, she's got these thick cushioned shoes to cushion her and protect her feet. But I thought, well, actually, that doesn't really make any sense because the more my mother can feel her feet against the ground, the more what we call proprioception, the more awareness of where her joints are in space, the more information her brain's going to get. So I got her a pair of Viva Barefoot shoes. And I said, mum, just try wearing these, you know, when you go out, even in the house, if you want to, if you know, mum would always wear slippers in the house and her feet were quite sensitive. And her balance improved, almost instantaneously her balance improved. So now she's got about six pairs and, you know, that's all she'll wear because once she puts on

her old cushion shoes, you know, all the modelling or the modern, you know that's all she'll wear because once she puts on her old cushion shoes you know all the modeling or the modern uh you know protect your feet will give you all the right cushioning just can't feel the ground anymore and so i really find it incredible how whether it's with my children and i insist that they're either barefoot or they wear viva barefoot shoes they don't have any modeled shoes at all any cushioned shoes and it's because i passionately don't want them to have to do what I've had to do, which is in my 20s and 30s, unlearn what I already knew how to do. Yeah, me too. But also, you know, you go to the other extreme. My mother in her late 70s, who has, you know, she grew up in India. So her feet, I am sure, would have been tip top perfect until she probably

came over here and started wearing modern footwear her bunion her you know all these things are improving just by the fact that she's actually using her feet again it's incredible yeah the change happens so quickly both ways we've seen it in the Kalahari with the Bushman who starting to get sort of westerns you know secondhand hand-me-downs and it's incredible how quickly their feet go from a natural state to something that starts to look more like a shoe and then as soon as they start going back to wearing their traditional sandals again how quickly the the the feet correct themselves and yeah i'm sure the same with your uh your mother and you know i'm sure her feet are

also getting stronger yeah absolutely what we always say is you know it doesn't matter what you do and how you do it having stronger healthier feet is is better for you yeah and what i think what's remarkable for me is that we talk about you know when when we talk about these concepts you know people talk about the modern world and what you just said about how hard the afric African savannah could be compared to concrete or tarmac. That's incredible to hear. But you know, I'm a huge fan of squash. Squash is a game that I used to play very competitively, but I had to give up when my back went. And, you know, I spent the large part of my twenties and early thirties not playing anymore. You know, the game that I love. And when I, you know, when my back improved, when I started

doing foot exercises and wearing barefoot shoes, I thought, okay, this is fine for general walking, you know, going to the office, you know, even in the gym, I thought this is all fine. But you don't want to play squash with all that sort of lateral movement side to side. You know, I have been conditioned from a young age, you know, you need the right cushioning, you need lateral support. But you know what, about two years ago, I thought, you know what about two years ago i thought you know what my feet feel really strong so i actually got your um i think it's the motus that the bear thought when you've got the velcro strap on so you just got a bit of you know i don't want

to use the word stability because that makes me think of modern footwear but i've gone to playing squash now where there is i I have no problem at all. And my back feels perfect when I come off the squash courts. And, you know, I used to spray my ankle a lot in my teenage years. And I wonder how much of that was, you know, on the squash court, I wonder how much of that was to do with, you know, my cushion and my modelled, sporty, high-tech, quite literally the brand's high-tech,

and it was the high-tech squash shoes i wonder how much that affected my my movement mechanics it's funny that tim brennan who was my friend that brought the the idea of vivo who's really the inventor behind um vivo he's a passionate tennis player and it was through alexander technique which is sort of postural alignment um therapy and he always did it barefoot that he realized that you know perhaps his shoes through Alexander technique, which is sort of postural alignment therapy. And he always did it barefoot that he realized that, you know, perhaps his shoes were the problem of why he's getting injured playing tennis a lot. But I would like to stress that, you know, we really don't recommend going straight to sort of intensive sport with barefoot. Take it easy. Start in your everyday life just

start like you're saying walking around every day yeah uh in in in your home without shoes on start wearing less shoe every day and when you feel your feet are getting stronger then slowly slowly um add sport but you know i think there's no question that it will end up in in elite sport and you can already see in basketball that the shoes are getting you know less and less supportive and thinner and thinner and yeah I would echo what you said Galahad you know just just to clarify for people listening to this I didn't just suddenly go and start playing competitive squash with barefoot shoes you know I spent you know good two or three years doing exercises I've started to feel stronger my my back felt better. It was a

natural progression for me. So I'd absolutely say, hey, guys, look, you know, if you're interested, just start by being barefoot more. You know, when you get home, take your shoes off, go in the garden, you know, obviously, it's, you know, February at the moment in the UK, when we're recording this, it's not ideal, but you can actually get out there in the garden barefoot, get used to feeling your feet before you jump into doing marathons or squash playing in them but there's no question you can get there and you know interestingly roger federer who's arguably the greatest tennis player of all time and one of the reasons is he's gets injured a lot less than everybody else and i saw a thing from one of his coaches that he gets made fun of a lot on the tennis tour

because he's got such big, wide feet. And Nike have to make special shoes for him that are wider and thinner, which is the way he likes it. Wow. And if you look at the way Federer moves around a tennis court compared to others, he's just a lot more graceful, a lot more on his toes and his forefoot. And, you know, the coach was saying that, you know,

one of the big things around Federer compared to the other players is just the health of his feet and movement pattern is just, you know, completely different to the others. And, you know, look at him winning Grand Slams now, you know, almost older than anyone's ever won them before. I mean, it's incredible. And actually, it makes me think, you know,

when they are making fun of him, I'm sure his Grand Slam record is quite a good way of kicking back against that. But, you know, you should remind me of something that when I used to watch Wimbledon a lot growing up, I remember the groundsman at Wimbledon saying that when Andre Agassi would play, you could tell afterwards

because there just wasn't the wear and tear on the court. And I, you know, obviously, I don't know. If you know about Agassi, I don't know what his feet look like, and I don't know. But I suspect that his biomechanics and his lightness of touch as he would move around the court

probably, I think it's reasonable to think, may have some similarities with Federer, would imagine but obviously I can't prove that yeah I've never seen his feet either and I mean I know he was uh definitely um pretty high a lot of the time he was winning a lot of those matches so yeah maybe that has something to do with it yeah absolutely oh I'll tell you what um you know we talk about technology and what strikes me is that you have created a footwear brand in the modern world in the 21st century

that actually there's almost a lack of technology behind the shoes. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I think we promised to give you less than any other shoe company less less support less padding um and you know actually there's a it's thanks to modern technology in many ways that we're able to make shoes as thin and lightweight as we're able to make them now and this is this is not a new idea interestingly clarks in the 19th century were

promoting foot-shaped shoes and there's amazing advertising campaigns from the 1880s talking about hygienic boots and shoes but like you say something happened in the 20th century where we got obsessed with modern technology would save us all. And we just started to move away from this natural base layer. And, you know, hopefully we're at the beginning of a journey to go back to a more natural base layer because, you know, it's sort of nature's last stand before the machines all take over. Yeah, no, I agree.

What's interesting to me, I had a very powerful reason to change. You know, my life was significantly affected by my issues. So I didn't really care, let's say, what a shoe looked like. I just wanted to feel good. And, you know, I've noticed how the range has evolved a lot, even year on year, you know, the kind of styles. Because some people actually initially will probably be, you know, I'm used to heeled shoes. I want a certain look. And I guess you're up against that a little bit, but I've noticed how you guys are really trying to make the shoes

actually look really great as well. And, you know, my wife, for example, she probably didn't have as powerful a reason as me to change. And as I was getting into this movement, I was saying, hey, baby, you should be wearing this stuff. It feels great. And she was a little bit resistant at first. But over the last couple of years,

she's transitioned to pretty much exclusively wearing Viva Barefoot now. And she's got to the point as well, when she doesn't, on a particular day, she wears one of her old shoes, her cushioned shoes. She's got niggles in her back and her pelvis and her hip at the end of the day. And that in itself is motivation to go, you know what? I kind of like feeling good. Is this something you hear a lot no i mean look first of all i want to give a shout out to my cousin and partner asher who's the head designer of vivo and you know he's done an incredible job to to make the shoes look better and better and you know we're we're very proud about a lot of

the shoes we make and we're we're really into it we're we're cobblers and we want to make the best shoes we possibly can but you know with this very strict principles that they're flat they're wide they're with very very thin soles to allow the foot to do its natural thing but i think even he would admit that we still got a little bit of a journey to go with women it's obviously a lot harder with women to convince women that it's a sexy thing to wear flat, wide shoes. And we've actually just recently hired some new ladies to help us really get into this more. We're on a never-ending journey to get that right,

and we want to make these shoes as attractive and wonderful for as many people to wear as possible and you know making it easier for your wife to to make the switch and and many others is a big goal for us hey well look i really appreciate the work that you are doing and part of the reason i put this podcast out is i want to talk to health experts but i also want to talk to people personalities with interesting, business people who are, you know, creating things that are significantly improving the health of many people. And I think your brand and your company is absolutely doing that. And, you know, I absolutely wish you all the best with that. It's changed my life and my

family's life. And I hope, you know, as your brand evolves, you're going to help to transform, I think, the health of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people around the globe so it's hugely inspiring for me so thank you for all that's the other thing that really inspires me about what you are trying to do is that there seems to be a real ethos behind doing things in a sustainable way in a way that's really good for the environment can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, no, thank you for that. And, you know, Vivo was not my invention at all. And I'm just lucky to be in the right place at the right time to have the chance to carry this mission. But, you know, I think any young person in business today cares about sustainability. And, you know, ultimately, sustainability means a lot

of different things to a lot of different people. So we like to start with a definition of sustainability. And we love one from an American guy called John Ehrenfeld, who said, sustainability is about allowing humans and other life to flourish on Earth. There's a great word flourishing. other life to flourish on earth. There's a great word flourishing. And, you know, he said, you shouldn't fill the world up with more crap, so to speak, unless you can do one of at least three things. Products should make us feel more human. They should help us connect more with nature, or they should help us ask environmental and ethical questions. And I think Vivo uniquely does that, and just by wearing less shoe and feeling the ground underneath your feet, a walk through nature or even just in your everyday life,

you just start to have a more intimate relationship with the world and you immediately almost start to think in a more sustainable way. I think, unfortunately, that a lot of sustainability is about materials and and and processes and things but people forget that you know ultimately it's most important is about use and there's no point you know making a product that harms humans and and is ultimately a disposable product that maybe gets worn once or twice for, you know, perhaps not very wholesome reasons and then ends up in landfill, even if it's made out of completely recycled, eco-friendly materials, you know, that can't possibly be called sustainable. It's a good point, actually. I hadn't thought of that. And we're sort of almost, you know know i think probably getting to a world where manufacturers will perhaps start selling use rather than products and then they'll

have the responsibility to take those products back repair them and try and you know keep the materials from going into landfill so yeah well you did great job you know i remember when we first met a few years ago we were were mutually introduced via contact. And, you know, one of my pairs of shoes from about four years ago, the sole wore out. And you guys take it back and you resole the shoe and send it back. And it's, you know, so I'm still using that. Whereas in the past with a different, in a different era, I'd probably have, you know, you'd have chucked that shoe because it was done. And we've still got a long way to go on that. it was done and we've got we've still got a long way to go on that and and and it's you know it's a it's a really important responsibility i think for people that are making things to

be able to create the loops you know unfortunately a lot of big companies have a sustainability agendas but they just end up doing more of the wrong things righter rather than you know really having a you know company that starts from a sustainable philosophy that you know ultimately benefits humans and is a product or a service that is is is good for the world and uh so you know we're we're lucky to have that at vivo and there's a never-ending journey to improve every aspect of what we do. Yeah, well, Gal, look, I'm a big fan of what you do anyway. I'm feeling really inspired and even more enthusiastic about what your company is doing, having spoken to you face-to-face.

I normally end my conversations with guests to try and give the listeners actionable tips, things that they might be able to put into place immediately into their own life to help improve their health and i wonder actually do you have four tips that the listener could take from this conversation from your ethos to help improve their health happy yeah the the four pillar barefoot plan yeah so i mean i think you know we as we've been speaking about today the first thing is to walk before you run don't rush into it don't rush into sport use them in your everyday life and you know don't feel like you have to use them every day all the time you know gradually phase into barefoot so that'd be tip number one walk before you run but then running and sport is definitely an option down the line and i you know i think all elite sport

sportsmen will end up celebrating big strong healthy feet and they'll jump higher and faster than ever before anyway tip one walk before you can Tip two, wear as little shoe as possible as often as possible. Just go to a shoe-free household. Get out in your garden. You know, it's obviously we're in the coldest week Britain's had for many years. But, you know, spring is around the corner. Go around your house barefoot. Get out into the garden barefoot.

But as Rongan does, it's, you know, that's a wonderful way just to reawaken your feet up. Pillar number three, I would say, is try to do some feet exercises. Just when you're in the shower, just scrunch up your toes, think about your feet, put your big toes under your feet, above your feet, get a ball, roll your feet over a ball. We have a series of exercises on our website called Toga. But, you know, so tip three is basically just start to think about your feet, wake up your feet. You know, I'd like to think we're maybe entering the decade of the foot. And tip four is ultimately about movement. You know, so much of our brains we've been discussing are there for movement. If we didn't move and we weren't designed

to move, we'd have much smaller brains. So move more. And, you know, one movement that is forgotten in Western society is squatting. And squatting is really good just to get flexibility back into your ankles, get flexibility back into your hips, even balancing on things helps with hip mobility. So tip four is just move more and try and include some things that maybe you don't do on a regular basis like squatting or balancing. Yeah, well, thanks for that, Galad.

I think for people who don't use their feet, who are used to being in thick cushioned soles for the majority of their waking lives, even just getting a bit more barefoot and actually starting to pay attention to their feet, I think would have a huge impact. And the other question I often ask guests is, is there one book that you would recommend to the listener to sort of help shift the way that they think potentially? Yeah, I mean, look, there's a famous book that was written about seven or eight years ago. And it's a confusing title based on what I've been saying.

But I'm going to have to say Born to Run by Chris McDougall. First of all, it's a gripping read. It's a really fun book to read. And second of all, it just has a lot of really good science in there about this journey. And I think, you know, if you read it, you'll enjoy it. And you'll also start to think about your feet more. Yeah. Galad, I read that book.

I can't remember when it was, but it's got pride of place on my bookshelf in my study. It made me smile. It made me inspired and in no doubt contributed in some way to this journey that I'm on. So yeah, I think that's a fantastic recommendation. Anyone listening who's not read that book, I strongly recommend that you do. Galad, I really appreciate you making some time out of your busy schedule today. I think the listener will very much enjoy that and hopefully we will have persuaded a few more people to start paying more attention to their feet. Thanks for your time. Thank you. No, it's a pleasure. And, you know, thank you for all you're doing on a much, you know, grander scale to really, you know, start to transform health in the country. Yeah, thanks. You're an inspiration. And, you know, we're very happy to call you a friend and a supporter of feet gala thank you so much and i hope that in the next few months we can probably revisit this

podcast with some updates so uh yeah have a good day thank you awesome thanks that's the end of this week's feel better live more podcast thank you so much for listening and i really hope you found the conversation useful but also enjoyable. If you're not already, I'd highly recommend that you subscribe to this podcast so that you can be notified when the latest episode of my podcast comes out. I'd also be incredibly grateful if you consider going onto iTunes and giving this a five-star rating so that I can get this information out and reach more people. It really does make a difference. And if you have any suggestions for people you'd like to see me have conversations with on this podcast, I'd encourage you to get in touch with me on social media using the hashtag

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