Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #15 Treating Depression and Anxiety with Dynamic Running Therapy with William Pullen

Episode Date: April 25, 2018

Dr Chatterjee talks to William Pullen, psychotherapist, author and founder of Dynamic Running Therapy about how running and walking can be the perfect therapy for mental health conditions. Show notes available at www.drchatterjee.com/williampullen Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and BBC television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people, both within as well as outside the health space, to hopefully inspire you, as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier, because when we feel better, we live more. I'm really excited for my guest on today's podcast. It is a gentleman who

thinks that running, as well as other exercises such as walking, can be incredibly beneficial to help treat mental health problems such as depression and anxiety. And he is author of the book Run For Your Life. It's Mr. William Pullen. William, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Nice to be here. So, William, we have never met before. This is the first time for us. And actually what happened a few weeks ago is that William interacted with me on Twitter. And, you know, I had a quick look at your sort of homepage and looked through your tweets,

and I immediately got that feeling that, oh, I really want to talk to you. This is going to be right, you know, aligned with what I think about, and I want to learn more about you, just simply from having that. You know, you get a flavor sometimes from just looking at someone's, you know, timeline,

what's on there. And so it's great for me that you're actually here today we can have this conversation so William your book has got a fantastic title Run For Your Life what is it about? So the book is it's does a few different things actually I hope on one level it encourages people just to get moving and running then it has some simple guides on mindful walking and mindful running it has programs for running with your kids. Then it has some simple guides on mindful walking and mindful running. It has programs for running with your kids. And then it has specific programs for running with depression, anxiety, anger, things like that. Things to help you with those conditions.

Have you always been a runner? No. All of this springs out of a meltdown I had about 11 years ago when I found myself in a meltdown and decided that the only way to get out of it would be to throw everything at it, kitchen sink. So I threw at it running and I was not a runner at all. If you can imagine the opposite of a runner, a smoker, a drinker, amongst many other things, and a poker player. It sounds like the lyrics to a song, doesn't it? Smoker, drinker, poker many other things, and a poker player. It sounds like the lyrics to a song, doesn't it? Smoker, drinker, poker player. So how long ago was this?

About 11 years ago. 11 years ago. And what sort of job were you doing at the time? I was in television, actually. So you're working in television, you're drinking too much, smoking too much, not looking after your health. And I'm very much in love with somebody and that relationship. We were from different backgrounds, different countries, different religions. She, in the end, our families, etc. It didn't work out and it was

rather devastating. And I don't know why I had this sort of meltdown that I did. I think turning 40 was part of it. But I decided to take up running. I took up psychotherapy as a client. I took up boxing and yoga anything i could to get out and keep me moving did someone say you should do those things so because i'm just trying to get my head into the place where you were so your relationship's ended you are not feeling great you're feeling burnt out um you know did you see a doctor you know what what what was going through your mind at the time okay so I was I would describe it as both depressed but something bigger than that happening and so like a lot of

depressed people I found it very hard to action anything you know I I did too much isolating too but I knew enough I still have a good rational mind. And I knew that the depression was telling me things that I knew weren't really true. And so I knew that I had to ignore those voices and start doing something. And nobody told me to start running. But I knew that if I could get moving, if I could get running, even if it started off with a 10-meter run, I knew that it would be good for me. I knew being outside would be good. The fresh air would be good. The camaraderie would be good. Everything would be good for me. I knew being outside would be good. The fresh air would be good. The camaraderie would be good.

Everything would be good. Wow. So you started running. You said you were boxing as well. Yeah. And what started to happen as you started running? What benefits did you start to feel? Well, can I just back up a bit?

Because I'd like to give the story as it should be told. back up a bit because I'd like to give the story as it should be told. Because the truth of the matter is, is that in between me finding myself in this state and me getting help for myself, I saw a doctor and that doctor said to me, listen, there's a hard way for you to do this and there's an easy way for you to do this. I recommend you take antidepressants. And I was like, oh, I don't know about that. He was like, well, listen, if you take them, all that noise in your head, all that negativity will stop for a bit. And then you'll be in a position where you can start to think straight and make some rational choices. And it was because I took his advice that I was, I think, I was able to then make

those rational choices and more importantly, actually go out and do them. So I owe a lot to him and I owe a lot to antidepressants. So I don't think it's easy for people and any of your listeners who are depressed. It's the hardest thing to go from being depressed to going running. You know, there are not many things that are harder than that. And yet it's what I'm advocating to people. harder than that and yet it's what i'm advocating to people but yeah it's the the the sort of catch 22 there is that you know there's a lot of research out there about how exercise can be incredibly beneficial for people with mental health problems but you know the irony

is there that when you are feeling low or you're struggling with your mental health, the last thing you probably feel like doing is going for a run. So how did you summon up the motivation to do that? You know, you just get desperate. You get to a point where you realize nobody else is going to help you. And you finally decide today's the day for action. But I think I had a rational mind. I was old enough and smart enough. And thank God on antidepressants, which allowed me to think to myself, I'm the one that needs to do something here.

And I was experienced enough in the world to, if you like, do a sort of life hack and sell it to myself in a way that was doable. lifehack and sell it to myself in a way that was doable. Because if I said to myself, well, I need to go from being what I feel now to a full on runner, this would be something I would have never been able to sell myself. But what I knew by that point in my life and all the other things I've been involved with, which is that if you take small steps, one step at a time, it's a miracle where you can get to. Do you think that having somebody to run with helps you get the motivation that you need in order to keep running? Certainly for me it did and certainly for people who have mental health conditions I would certainly say look if you're struggling to get out there then definitely try that route. If you're coming at it more as just you're interested in the mindful running, whatever,

if you're happy to do that alone, then do it alone. It's whatever works for you. In your book, you mention the term dynamic running therapy. Yeah. Where does that name come from and what does that actually mean? Well, I made it up, is the truth. Dynamic, of course, refers to movement, but it is, I recognize, a mouthful. But it just seemed like a good name.

It makes sense. It's dynamic, it's running, and it's therapy. I couldn't come up with a better name. Oh, I like it. Good. So let's say somebody's listening to this yeah and they have been struggling with their mental health or they know somebody as many of us do who are struggling with their mental health and they want to talk to them about running as being an option for them is one of the options

is that they can self-motivate and try and start running and see if they can keep that up because we would hope that the more they do it the more they the better they start to feel what is particularly unique about the stress you outline in your book well again it depends why you've picked up the book if you've picked up the book for mindful running it's unique in the sense that it's my take on mindful running and mindful walking um if you have you if you've picked it up for anxiety and depression, well, then those programs are very particular in the sense of how I come at them. So you've got specific strategies in the book to actually help people with different conditions. Yes, indeed. If you go to, for instance, let's take the depression chapter, for example,

instance, let's take the depression chapter, for example, you'll find that there's an introduction on depression. And then you'll find 20 questions to run with as many times as you like to explore and take notes of your particular experience with depression. So it helps you to, you're going to use the body, you're going to use running with these questions and the and the process of running will help bring up the answers and for people who've never done it before it might seem a little bit odd but running really does help you bring up feelings and bring clarity to your feelings i literally had a conversation in the last few days with a good friend of mine who you know uses running as a way to de-stress as almost the antidote to you know the the the work pressures and the family pressures and was just telling me how a lot of the time where when the running's taking place these ideas these creative ideas come to the fore but also you know he manages to process a lot of the things that he's maybe thinking about or struggling with in life.

That happens almost naturally when he's running. Is that something that you have found yourself? So much so. The creative aspect, the focusing aspect of running, the motivation piece we're all familiar with. Even non-runners are familiar with that. But the way that it clarifies thought or apparently does is just fantastic. So yesterday I was on a long chat with a lady in the States who's trying to put together a business management running course. So she's trying to get businessmen to run and in so doing actually find themselves motivated in their own work to push them better in sales, etc.

Because she recognizes, as I do, that there's something about the process of running, once you can get into it, that's massively empowering. So I think for that reason, I would say to anybody, you know, just give it a go and you'll be amazed by what comes up, what comes out of it. I think it's like this. My experience is this.

Sometimes you go out for a walk or run, but I think a run is a stronger example of this, and you'll go out and you'll feel overwhelmed at the morning. God, I've got all this problem. I've got this issue. I don't know how to work it out. I don't know how to think through it clearly. And at the end of the run, even though you haven't spent hours deconstructing it and putting it back together, somehow you now know the answer, or at least you feel that you know the answer. Now, what happened between point A and point B is a very interesting question.

As a doctor, you'll understand the physiology of it better than I do. I know a little bit about it. There's some in the book. So I think the brain chemistry definitely changes how we understand or how we're now experiencing what we were then experiencing. Yeah, but we also notice this happens with with sleep um you know often you know if you go to bed thinking about a problem on the assumption that you can sleep then whilst you access deep levels of sleep there's some pretty interesting research i've read saying well your your brain starts to try a different part of your brain starts to solve that problem you know when you're not consciously thinking about it and i

imagine there'll be a similar process going on when when you're out running and you're sort of you know doing something else your brain is subconsciously working away and and maybe working more efficiently you mentioned right at the start that you would run outside yeah you also work as a psychotherapist now, and I'm interested to know what your thoughts are. Should the running be done outside, or can people still glean similar benefits if they run indoors on a treadmill? They can certainly get the majority of it from a treadmill. But you're unlikely to run with somebody else on a treadmill. It tends to be a bit of a solo pursuit. So you're losing that bit.

You're losing some of the biology that you're enjoying for your microbiome and all that business. You're missing some of the vitamin D of the sun. You're missing the being outside, the fresh air, all of the sensory input. missing the um the being outside the fresh air all of the sensory input well i think intuitively i think we all know that we feel better when we're doing things outside you know working in a in a dark it doesn't have to be dark but a but a soulless gym or you know running in a soulless gym or running in a forest somewhere you know i think we all know what would be better uh not of course not everyone has access to run in a forest, you know, and often it's on urban streets. But, you know, my bias is to, you know, certainly recommend it to be outdoors where possible.

There's no question. And, you know, one of the reasons I think it works better outside is because we're supposed to be going from A to B. When you're running in a gym, there's no sense of getting from A to B, really. When we get to A to B, I'm the person that's achieved something, right? Even if it's just running around. That still speaks to my biology. It speaks to the mythology inside my head. It speaks to the sense of accomplishment.

And this is massive, right? Because when you are depressed or confused, or let's say you're trying to work your way through a problem, when I set out from A and I get to B, one of the things that's changed, one of the reasons why I now think that I have answers that I didn't have at A is because what's happened to me? I've changed from being the man who at A didn't know what to do, right?

So I'm a man who's not a doer. I'm just a thinker at this point and a thinker that's lost. When I've got to B, I'm now a doer. I'm a different man at that point. I'm full of doing. And I think it's that confidence that comes and it trickles into your thinking and your processing. And suddenly, out of nowhere,

a path of the many paths you were looking at when you were still at A about how to crunch this problem. Suddenly one of them steps up and says, this is the path. It makes sense. I now know. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. And it's, you know, makes me want to go outside and have a jog right now, actually. You know, it makes me want to go outside and have a jog right now, actually.

If you think about the term mindful running, when I first read it, I read the term because I've not managed to go through your book yet. I'm very much looking forward to doing that. You know, a thought I had in my mind was, is this about running, but also really paying attention whilst you're running? So feeling your foot, you know, hitting the ground and feeling that interaction between the foot and ground and then the spring as the foot leaves the ground. Is that what you're getting at. It's to be mindfulness as we understand it, mindfulness in the Buddhist tradition is to try to escape the irrelevance of thinking about the past and the future all the time. Because we need to stay in the present, don't we? There only ever is the present in that sense. That doesn't mean that we don't learn from the past and we'll prepare for the future. But fundamentally, we need to be in the present. And so mindful running allows you, all mindfulness practices are about working on everything that's sensory. In running, it's going to be your footfall or your breath or the number of trees or the sensation of fresh air it's to keep on coming back to what your senses are giving you for input and and to get away

from that constant fear what am i going to do here what did i do yesterday what will i do tomorrow to get away from that and to live here in the present moment yeah what did you find as you, in those two years between starting to run when you were clearly not in a good place at all to running the Paris marathon, you know, was it a constant improvement each time in your mental health or did it start to escalate? You know, I'm really interested because I think people who may resonate with what you're saying may want to understand, you know, was that improvement you felt immediate? And as you kept on running, did the improvement keep going? I would say that it was pretty much immediate because I was doing it with a friend and I needed, because from where I was coming from, this depressed feeling and this powerless feeling, the sense of camaraderie and

somebody else's also feeling the same way I did was enormously encouraging to me. So for me, I got a lot out of it. Now, had I be coming from a different place, maybe I'm just unfit and I wanted to take up running. That's going to be a slower growth. You're going to feel, my guess is, and it's going to be different for everybody, but for many people, a lot of the very hard stuff will be at the beginning, right? That first 50 meters, first 100 meters. Then there'll be a sweet spot.

I mean, a lot of people then get really caught up in it, and then it all about personal best and that's when the enjoyment can start to suffer again so do you look at personal bests no that's really interesting no because one of the reasons one of the things i i i find in my clients are people that hire me as a running therapist over and over again and in my regular work so is is striving is the problem striving in the big city. People are trying to get ahead, and they're fragmented in all these different ways as they try to get ahead in the world, and they lose that relationship with just the present being. Yeah, and I guess if that is your work life, then you don't want your running life or your non-work life to also be about getting ahead and what's that time.

And I guess, certainly on one level, I can resonate with that in terms of potentially being problematic for a large part of my adult life, less so these days. And that's for a whole variety of different reasons, but very competitive at work, but also very competitive in non-work pursuits, whether it's sports or whatever, always wanting to perform very, very well. And since I became a father, I've had to really question these traits and try and figure out, is this a good thing? Is this going to be a thing to to show to my

children are they is it going to benefit them or is it going to put a lot of pressure on them and you know i guess a wider a wider point is that for me becoming a father change has changed my perspective on so many different things you know i certainly feel i'm a lot kinder to my children maybe i would be to myself and so it really it helps me challenge and and often change my own behavior um so is is that is that something you would recommend to people that you if you want to get into running to help improve your mental and emotional well-being yeah would you recommend that they don't look at personal best and don't look at times? Just the opposite, actually. It is a confusing subject. I think I'm very much for, I think there's a difference between excellence and striving. I think for me, striving implies,

and it's not clear, but it's my interpretation. We all know what excellence means. I think we all agree that excellence is a wonderful thing, to be the best footballer I can be, to be the best poet I can be, to be the best whatever I can be, to enjoy that process of growing and learning and feeling competent and feeling... Striving, on the other hand, I think often has to do with coming from a place where I don't feel good enough trying to get to a place where I imagine I'm going to feel better

only to when I get there realize that I don't that I haven't felt this is not making me feel as good as I was planning to feel let me now push the thing on a little bit further until I'm finally running after this carrot that's not really getting me anywhere. So in the brief answer to your question is that personal best is a lot of fun in whatever field you're in, right? Whatever field you're in. Keep on. Excellence is fantastic. And challenges are highly correlated with happiness. Feeling challenged. Throw yourself into things in the world. Throw yourself into movement. Throw yourself into action in the world. But balance it out, learn how to balance it out as you have as a new father. Because if you become all about pushing and pushing and pushing,

you're going to end up in a place where you're never in the place you're in. You're always working ahead to get to the next place. And you'll find yourself suddenly waking up, realizing that you've got a Lamborghini in the garage. I'm going to try and come up with an analogy here. A Lamborghini in the garage and Pee Wee Herman in the mirror. Do you remember Pee Wee Herman? I don't, actually.

Good, because it didn't end well for him. He was a famous TV personality and a very funny comedian who was an awkward sort of fellow anyway. It all ended rather badly for him. you know as as someone who's written this book which has gone to a lot of people now as someone who works as a psychotherapist what are the obstacles you commonly hear from people why they are unable to do this oh well i think it's typically well i'm not a runner you know i'm not fit and i say to anyone who comes to me with that, I'm like, well, that's not a problem. We're going to start moving slowly together. It's about progress.

So you mean walking? Yeah, we'll start walking. We'll work up to a run. When I say run, a jog, even if it's only for a minute, the next time we'll do two. But we're also going to use that movement together to learn how you deal with what are the negative voices that come up for you when you can only hit two and you want to do three. And what do you do with those? So the whole thing, and this is what the book's about, is about learning how you relate with yourself. What's your internal dialogue like?

What's the quality of that language? And then addressing it where it needs addressing. So if it's particularly persecutory, then ask yourself, is that the way you would treat others? Is that the way you want to treat yourself? And is there a better way? Is there a better language? Do you have to damn yourself? Can you not just say, well, I could have done better or i'd like to do better today

not i must taking away the shoulds and musts um that's a big part of it you mentioned that you started taking antidepressants which you felt helped you or as you reflect back you think may have helped you think more logically to make some helpful choices did you then come off those antidepressants i did i set myself a six month period to be on them and i came off after six months um i i'm not sure i would have done had i if i didn't have the running to now regulate my mental health which i still use to regulate my i use it instead of antidepressants so that's your therapy that is my therapy and would you consider yourself now let if i had met you at that time when you were experiencing all these problems and burnt out and you were you

diagnosed with depression by your doctor yeah okay do you consider yourself still to have depression no and you put that down to the running most definitely that's incredible so did did you make any other changes or was that was that the primary change that's a primary one i mean i think it helped getting out of television which is you know not media tends to be a very superficial kind of place to find yourself. And to become a psychotherapist has been a very enjoyable and exciting process. But I would put it down mostly to the empowerment that I feel as a runner. I now know that if I go out and have a run, and if I can find somebody to run with me, I mean, for my recreational, I know that I will feel better. So I don't need those. I'm always in the confidence that no matter how dreadful I feel

today, if I do have a bad day, I know that if I can get out there running, that it'll all change at the end of that run. And if I need, if i still feel dreadful the day after then i'll make sure i get another run so you're literally using it as a therapy 100 in this in the last few years have you ever for whatever reason whether it's an injury or work pressures have you ever gone through a phase where you maybe didn't run as much as you would have liked to and you noticed your mental health start to deteriorate, which then became a motivation to actually keep going again. Oh, most definitely. And that happens to me quite often.

For one reason or another, I find myself unable to run very much. I don't have time to run on my own account or I've got an injury that stops me from doing it. Things start to go downhill. Yes, things start to go downhill yes things start to go downhill but do you know what what's what for me William what's so important to recognize about that is that's the process of education that's the process of empowerment it's you know whether you're talking about food and people changing their food choices for a period of time and feeling

great and then work gets in the way and they get too busy and they start to eat out again and they don't you know they don't pay as much attention and then what you know they start to feel bad again and often they'll come in to the practice they don't see and i've been really naughty i'm like okay let's just change the language about this you've that is you're discovering more about yourself you're learning actually that when you make good choices you feel great when you don't you don't feel so good and that then is that new level of motivation to understand why you're doing something because i fundamentally believe that no patient or no member of the public would or should do anything that i or anyone else recommend them to do long term unless they're feeling

different because they might do for a few weeks they might someone might hear this podcast i very much hope lots of people will hear this and go actually i'm going to start doing that see that helps my moods you know that would be my it would be a dream scenario and i think that will happen but if within a few weeks if they don't start to, on some intrinsic level, start to feel some form of benefit, I think people are likely to stop. Yeah. So it's interesting to me that when you don't do it so much, it's just a reminder. So I guess the question would be, do you have a set dose per week that you tend to do and you then supplement that with additional doses if you aren't feeling so good no i find personally and everybody's different for me three doses a week

is just about right um i run along the river along the thames and so normally i'll do uh two during the week and one on the weekend if i go away for a weekend then i try to do three during the week and one on the weekend. If I go away for a weekend, then I try to do three during the week and it's in the morning. And do you find with your clients and the feedback you've had from readers of the book, would you say that three times a week is about right for most people and accepting that there's a huge variation? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a great way to go. And, you know, even for those who are starting off slowly, then make those three walks or one walk and two runs or just get out there, spend some time with yourself. And I'm not one of these purists who says that, you know, you can't listen to music. If you want to listen to music while you're out there, do that.

I think it's nice also to switch it all off and just listen to the birds. But if music is going to get you out there, get there. If it's a podcast like this excellent podcast, get there listen to a podcast get excited i listen to a lot of podcasts and i find them hugely uh inspiring in my life they i learn so much about the world and i walk away and i'm just like wow i feel like i've got all these tools and all this knowledge yeah me too i i mean i i echo that you know when i'm uh i come to london quite a lot these tools and all this knowledge yeah me too i i mean i i echo that you know when i'm i come to london quite a lot these days and you know i normally will get through at least one or two podcasts on each journey and it's just incredible how much knowledge and motivation i get just just from doing that and i like your approach it's very pragmatic it's like look

we need to get you outside we need to get you moving if we need to get you moving. If you need music to do that, fine. And I think, you know, it's really important these days to have those kind of very common sense, pragmatic approaches. There is perfection and then there's reality. And, you know, just moving people from being in boxes all day long and then sitting in front of the sofa in the evening to actually getting out and moving their bodies in the fresh air ideally that is a huge change for most people and and if i can jump in i think you know in in therapy what i said to my clients is we're going to sit here together

i'm going to hear about your world i'm hopefully i'm going to understand something about your world hopefully i've got something to add and to questions for you to understand about your world. But ultimately, in the end, you may have to make some decisions about how to live your life in a way that's more productive for you. So you're going to have to make some changes probably. I was going to say that reminds me of, you know, that's putting something back onto your client or me onto my patient saying that, actually, I can help guide you. I can help show you some tools. But ultimately, you're going can help show you some tools. But ultimately, you're going to have to figure it out.

You're going to have to take ownership of it and figure out what's going to work for you. That's what I was gleaning from that. But when it works, right, when you are in the flow, when you find that thing that works for you, the beauty of it is you no longer have to go through that whole personal, you know, encouraging yourself because you know it works for you. And that's what this book is about in a way, is it gives you an opportunity to look at how you relate to yourself and your conditions. And then once you've gone through all of that, you can just run. And the beautiful thing about running is I don't need to spend hours while I'm running thinking about who I am and what,

it just works. I know at the end of that run, I'm running thinking about who I am and what. It just works. I know at the end of that run, I'm going to feel mentally better no matter what I think about. I'm going to feel mentally better, physically better. It's a fix. Yeah. William, it was very inspiring chatting to you, actually, and just hearing your own personal journey. Thank you for sharing that with me. Pleasure.

I'm sure many people will take, you know, motivation and inspiration from that. I think instead of a podcast on my train home tonight, I think I'll be reading your book, Run For Your Life. What I do now is I've started to do show notes. So I'll put a link to the book on the show notes at the bottom of this podcast. I'll also put links to your social media handles. Where are you most active if people want to connect with you uh twitter pullen therapy p-u-l-l-e-n therapy uh instagram d underscore running therapy or just on my home web website which is dynamic running therapy.com great well

we'll put all these links there in the show notes um william i always like to finish off um and it really goes into what you said about you finding podcasts uh motivating and inspiring often as i do and i want to leave the listener with a bit of inspiration with a bit of something to reflect on something where you know something that they can actually think about putting into their everyday lives immediately and i just want to, have you got any sort of final thoughts to share with the listener? Well, yes, I do. I'm glad you asked. One is that if you are feeling in your life, like there's a, that you're caring a lot, then think about doing an empathy run with somebody. If you know somebody else who feels

like they're caring a lot, go out and do an empathy run or walk with them. It'll really be great for both of you. But most of all, here's my takeaway. I really want people to understand, to take a punt, if you will, with attempting to walk, run in the ways we've described. Because I know right now, you may feel weighed down by what's happening in your life. You may feel like you're immovable and that the world is going to, it feels immovable forever. But trust me, if you go out there and you can get that first step taken care of and then just add one more to it and everybody can take one or two steps. I promise you at some point, maybe around step 15 or 10, you'll find yourself breaking into just a constant flow and it'll all make sense.

Well, thank you for that. Thank you for giving up your time today. And thank you for coming on the podcast. I hope to get you back on again at some point in the near future. Pleasure. That concludes the latest conversation on my feel better live more podcast i hope you enjoyed it if you did please do take a screenshot of this page on your phone right now and post it on social media please do tag me on instagram instagram stories facebook and twitter please do use the hashtag feel better live more i want this podcast to help transform the health of as many people as possible so if you could also leave a five-star review on itunes or wherever you listen

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