Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #153 Rich Roll on Why Consistency is the Key to Success

Episode Date: February 3, 2021

CAUTION ADVISED: this podcast contains mild swearing. Today I’m welcoming back my good friend and fellow podcaster, Rich Roll, for the third time. Rich has recently gone back through his 500 plus podcasts and collected words of wisdom from 50 of his podcast guests in his new, self-published book Voicing Change which is, quite simply, a thing of beauty. Rich was a huge influence on my own decision to start a podcast – and to evolve it into long form conversations. So, we kick off our chat talking about the craft and what we have learned from it. He explains that he likes to prepare well and research his guests but ultimately trusts in the process and his instincts. That’s advice that translates to all walks of life, from a sporting event to a job interview. We discuss how leading with your own vulnerability can be the key to putting other people at ease and helping them to open up. Rich reveals how every success in his life has been very hard fought and has been a process of work undertaken consistently, aggressively and anonymously. He believes that many of us overestimate what we can do in a short period of time and wildly underestimate what we're capable of accomplishing over a decade or a number of years. Above all, he is a believer in process over outcome, the journey not the destination. Growth is all about stepping outside your comfort zone. Over the past year, of course, that journey has been difficult for all of us. But even in the face of global calamity, Rich has some great practical advice on how best to survive and even thrive. We discuss parenting through the pandemic, Covid’s effect on the world’s mental health and our worries about its impact on our kids. But ultimately, Rich believes we can navigate through the fear and emerge from this era with more resilience, better able to handle difficulties. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/153 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

The quick fix, kind of hack your life mentality is a close cousin to the clickbait, soundbite media culture. We all want it now. We want it immediately. We want to be the best version of ourselves tomorrow. We want to read this book or do this one thing and fix everything overnight. And it just doesn't work that way. And I think even if you were given the opportunity to snap your fingers and, you know, become the person you always wanted to become, you're still robbing yourself of what's most valuable about that transformation, which is the journey to get there.

Every success that I've had in my life has been very hard fought and has been a process of a lot of behind the scenes work undertaken consistently, aggressively, and anonymously. You move these mountains over a very slow period of time. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. Today, I'm welcoming back for the third time, my good friends and fellow podcaster, Rich Roll. Now, for those of you not familiar with Rich's backstory, I'd recommend listening to episode 28 of my podcast, where we go through it in detail. It is

really, really inspiring. Now in summary, Rich used to be a successful lawyer, but at the same time he was really struggling with alcohol. This led to a few low points in his life, one of which was walking up his stairs in his early 40s and having extreme chest pain. This led to him completely turning his life around. He transformed his diet and with his newfound health, he started to compete in ultra endurance events and has been named as one of the fittest people on the planet. Now, I'm a big fan of Rich because through his life journey, he's learned a lot of universal truths, which he shares openly to help us understand that change is available to us at any time. Now, Rich has recently gone back through all of his 500 plus podcasts and has collected words of

wisdom from 50 of his guests in his new self-published book, Voicing Change, which quite simply is a thing of beauty. Now, Rich has had a significant influence on my own decision to start a podcast and to evolve it into long-form conversations. So we kick off our chat talking about the craft and what we each have learned from it. Rich explains that he likes to prepare well and research his guests, but ultimately once the conversation starts, he has to trust in the process and his instincts. That's advice that translates to all walks of life, whether it's a sporting event or a job interview. This is a wide-ranging conversation. We talk about the importance of leading with vulnerability and how it's the key to putting other people at ease and helping

them to open up. And Rich also reveals how every single success in his life has been really hard fought and has been a process of work undertaken consistently, aggressively, and anonymously. He believes that many of us overestimate what we can do in a short period of time and wildly underestimate what we're capable of accomplishing over a number of years. We discuss parenting through the pandemic, COVID's effects on the world's mental health, and our worries about its impact on our kids. on the world's mental health and our worries about its impact on our kids. But ultimately, Rich believes we can navigate through the fear and emerge from this era with more resilience and better able to handle difficulties. I always enjoy catching up with Rich. I really hope you enjoyed listening.

And now here's my conversation with the inspirational Rich Roll. Rich, good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks for setting this up, man. I wish we could be in the same place at the same time, but this is the world that we live in. It is the world we live in. We both share a love of remote Zoom conversations, don't we? It's coming around for me. I'm in the acceptance phase at this point. Yeah. Have you been through denial that this is happening? Well, I definitely was in denial and I refused to do Zoom calls. And then I've slowly acclimated to the reality that, you know, this is just the way that it has to be. I mean, I've been fortunate in that being in Los Angeles, I have access to lots of interesting people and we've implemented safety protocols here at Makeshift studio. As you know, I typically recorded the podcast at my house. When coronavirus started, we moved it out of the home for obvious reasons. And we're in a kind of temporary makeshift situation. So I've been able to do in-person podcasts with some people, but that's

been spliced with Zoom calls here and there. And we've been trying to figure out the technological capabilities of this to deliver a high quality version of the typical Zoom call. So I'm in a studio right now with all kinds of cameras and fancy recording equipment. So I think we're in a position to deliver something atypical in the Zoom universe. Yeah, I'm interested as someone who, you know, I'd love to publicly acknowledge you as I have done before that I've been in the podcast space now this January will be three years. And, you know, we passed some really cool milestones recently. And I've learned a lot about myself and the process during that time. But you're someone who has definitely had a huge influence on me in terms of my decision to start a podcast. And also, I think my decision to evolve the show into a long form show. So I want to acknowledge you for that. So thank you, because I really feel you

have led the way in that. I feel podcasting has changed my life. It's made me a more mindful human being. It's made me a more trusting human being, a more compassionate one. It's made me a better husband, a better father. It's made me less judgmental. And I actually believe that podcasting is a window. And how we podcast, in many ways, reflects how we do life. So I wanted to break down the process with you, if you're game, and to see if that is the case or not. So I thought I'd start out by asking you, how do you prepare for a podcast? Yeah, that's a good question. Well, first of all, thank you for the kind words. And I just want to acknowledge what you've created and built yourself because your podcast has grown into something very successful and you're very good

at it. I think the medium is well suitedsuited to you and your personality. And the community that you've been able to cultivate by dint of your podcast, I think is super inspiring. So, you know, wind in your sails and I hope that you keep doing it because I think it's great. Personally, you know, how I prepare. I mean, that's evolved over time. I think I prepare very thoroughly. My typical process, it depends on the guest, of course. If they have a book, you know, I try to read the book or at least as much of the book as I possibly can before they come on the show. And then I do a deep dive. I open up like 20 tabs on my browser and try to read as much as I possibly can about them. I take notes either longhand or in a Google Doc, not of questions to ask, but sort of topics that I think will be

interesting. And I sort of collect all those links for the show notes during the research phase. But I don't ever create a list of questions. And I've also learned over time that there's a peril in being over-prepared for a guest because if you already know the answer to every single question, it's gonna be a stale experience for the viewer or

the listener because you're robbing it of the opportunity as the host to be surprised in the moment if you already kind of know where the person is going to take it. So I've learned to do enough research and then to actually hold back from my instinct. My instinct is to like want to learn everything. And I have to actually say, this is enough. I have what I need. I don't want to know anymore because I want to be able to be spontaneous in the conversation. So that's my typical process. And then sometimes I'll have my laptop open and I have those notes in front of me, but I rarely, if ever, look at them. And it's almost like a safety net.

I feel like if I, because I get nervous before every single one of these, even though I've done almost 600 of them. I want it to be great. I put a lot of pressure on myself because I want it to be the ultimate experience with this individual. I probably would be better off just not having the laptop or any notes in front of me at all, and just trusting the process and myself at this point, because I've done it so many times. I know what I'm doing on some level. But it's about doing the prep and then putting it away and

forgetting about it and not having anything in front of me so that I can be completely present with that individual. So I generally think about how I want to kick it off and then gently steering it from time to time to make sure that it doesn't go off the rails, but also allowing it to be what it wants to be rather than my preconceived idea of what I think it should be, I think is super important. And that also goes into the choice of guests for the show. So, you know, I think that's another conversation. But I think in terms of preparation, like sometimes I'll just have an old friend on and I don't do very much prep at all. Like,

I just want that to be as raw and as authentic as possible. So again, it depends on the guest, but you know, probably typically, you know, three to five or six hours of prep goes into each person that I sit down with. So you prepare heavily and then you try and let go when the conversation starts is kind of what I'm hearing. And I'm just wondering, is there a learning there? You know, is that how you approach an athletic race? Is that how you approach anything else in your life? Because I suspect that principle, although it's based around the podcast,

like I think there must be something in that for, let's say an employee for work, they have a presentation to do, you know, they can prepare. But then when the starter gun goes off, you kind of got to let go. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's the starting gun analogy is perfect because as you know, I grew up as a swimmer. I was a competitive swimmer for the first half of my life. And the way that I approach a podcast is very similar to how I would approach a swimming race in that you do the training, you do the reps, you put in the time, and then you show up on race day and you let all that go and you trust the preparation. And it's all about trying to get into the go. But that's where kind of some of the mindset tactics come in to just be as rooted as possible in the experience and being in acceptance

of what is happening. So it's very similar to an athletic race in that regard. You and I both know as people who have been guests on many podcasts and been interviewed many times, there's nothing worse than being on somebody's show and they ask you a question and then you answer it and then they go, awesome. And then they ask the next question because they're so attached to getting through their list of questions. They're so overly wed to their idea of what they think it should be that it ends up kind of being dead on arrival. And the beauty of podcasting is allowing that authenticity to shine through.

And in order for that to occur, you've got to be present with the person that you're at and not thinking about what the next question is. When you're sitting down at a dinner party, you don't prepare for that. You're just engaging somebody who's sitting across from you. You're not worried, what's the next question I'm going to ask this person? You're just following your curiosity and asking the next thing that you think would be interesting or that you actually want to know about. And that's what I'm always trying to create in these experiences. Yeah. I get what you're saying about being over-prepared. I think we can be over-prepared in life. I think sometimes we have to stop

and trust what happens next. Okay. We've done our best. We've done enough. Have you ever done a podcast where you haven't had time to prepare and what happens then? Or are you someone who is so diligent with preparation that you wouldn't allow that to happen? Yeah, I've had that a couple of times. There was one experience, it was many years ago and I won't say who the guest was, but I completely forgot that I had a podcast scheduled with this individual. It wasn't in my calendar or it slipped my mind or something like that. I was just at home doing my thing. And this person pulls into the driveway and was like, I'm here. And I had done zero preparation and knew almost nothing about this

person. It wasn't a public figure. And I thought, oh my God, like, what am I going to do? Should I tell him like that we have to cancel this? I had this instinct that this is going to be a disaster because I really don't know what I'm going to do. And instead I just thought, well, let's go with it and see what happens. And it ended up being fine. And we had a great conversation. And perhaps that conversation ultimately was better than the one that would have occurred had I spent a ton of time preparing. I don't know. But it gave me confidence and faith that you can do that, that it's fine. that safety blanket or that impulse to try to control isn't necessarily required. And I think it also forced me to confront my ego a little bit,

because if I'm being perfectly honest with you, I always want to come across intelligent, like I have the good question and I can, you know, make the insightful remark. And a lot of that isn't in service to the conversation or in service to the audience. It's really about my own insecurities and my own ego and what, how I want to be perceived and received by the audience. And that's bullshit, right? So that's a little battle that I'm always waging. Because I feel like, oh, if I'm super prepared, then I'm going to look, no matter what happens here, I'm going to look good. And that's really not a healthy or productive way to approach this medium. you know, approach this medium.

Yeah, it's interesting, Rich. Just a few hours ago, I spoke to the current England football manager or soccer manager for those listening in America. And it's exciting. Yeah, it was really exciting. And one of the things he said and he shared was how some of the top players feel really nervous before a game. And I feel that that has such a value for people who are listening to go, oh, wow, the elites, the guys who we look up to, man, they kind of struggle with the same stuff as we do. Or people listening to this who are fans of yours of which many of my guests are fan and many of my listeners are fans of yours but man rich gets

nervous really after 500 episodes i think i think there's learning for people so that people often believe that the guys who've got the the tick as if what society defines as success have got it all figured out. They don't struggle with ego. They don't struggle with pressure. They don't get nervous, but you just rock them onto the mic, calm as anything, having meditated for 20 minutes and you just zen out. But it's not that, right? No, it's not that at all. And it's very much the opposite. I think, you know, people can get the doing this for literally coming up on a decade at this point. I'm terrified to go back and listen to episode three. I never go backwards and tap into that. I'm just always moving forward.

And the thing about the podcast is it's in the doing. The lesson really is that it's in the doing that the discovery occurs, right? Because you're doing these podcasts. They're not going to be perfect. They're never going to be perfect. And you have to let go of that and just keep moving forward and keep putting episodes out and getting better as you go and maturing and improving and becoming a better host and everything that gets packed

into that. So, uh, in podcasting, I think that it is a medium in which people are, are, um, the audience I think is more permissive. Like they're not expecting it to be this highly crafted thing. In fact, if it is, it kind of loses its magic. And I found that, you know, when you misstep or you, you know, one isn't so great, like my audience at least is like, they're okay with that. They're like, all right, well, on to the next one. You know what I mean? And eight years later, like hopefully I'm better at it than I was in the beginning. The stakes are higher because the audience is larger. And now it's like a vocation and there's sponsors and all this other stuff. It's become a business. And that certainly wasn't how it began and wasn't how I imagined it. But, you know, I was able to undergo that growth curve at a time when

podcasting wasn't as big or as mainstream as it is now. And I feel grateful to have had that experience when the stakes were much lower so that when this medium has kind of exploded and become more of a mainstream thing, I feel like I have a grasp on this craft that I wouldn't have had even a couple of years ago. You're essentially talking about consistency and how consistently applying yourself to a craft has made you better. has made you better. And of course, that is a lesson that we can all apply in our own lives to relationships, health, or a passion that we're pursuing, right? That consistency. And I wonder, because consistency is something that's really hard for many people. It's like they want the quick fix. It's like, you know, tell me what I need to do and I'll do it, but not consistently

week after week. And I guess I know you identify, because I've heard you say this, as a writer. And I think that's interesting because you have your, well, now the second book that I'm aware of, you know, the first one, which is just a wonderful memoir, Finding Ultra, it's just a brilliant read, inspiration, hope, kind of, there's so much there for people. But as somebody who identifies as a writer, it's been many years between that book and this gorgeous new book that I hold in front of me, Voicing Change. And so I kind of feel there's something to do with deadlines that might be worth exploring. So you have a deadline that either is put on you or you put on yourself that you have to publish a certain amount of podcasts. Therefore, in some ways, you know, it's not going to be perfect because it will be what it will be.

And the show's got to go out because I've got to do the next one. Is there something in that something in deadlines that has meant your output with podcasts and books has been quite different? Yeah. I mean, I think there's two things that you're getting at here. There's the deadline aspect of it. And I'm a firm believer in deadlines, and we can talk about that. And then there's the antidote to the quick fix mentality, right? So maybe I'll address that part first. The quick fix kind of hack your life mentality, which is a subject that we've talked about

before in our respective podcasts, is a close cousin to the clickbait, soundbite media culture. We all want it now. We want it immediately. We want to be the best version of ourselves tomorrow. We want to read this book or do this one thing and fix everything overnight. And it just doesn't work that way. I don't believe in any of that. And I think even if you were given the opportunity to snap your fingers and, you know, become the person you always wanted to become, you're still robbing yourself of what's most valuable about that transformation, which is the journey to get there. Every success that I've had in my life has been very hard fought and has been a process of, you know, a lot of behind the scenes work undertaken consistently, aggressively,

and anonymously. You move these mountains over a very slow period of time. You know, my podcast began, it took eight years to get it from where it was to where it is today. My swimming career, my writing career, my athletic journey as an ultra endurance athlete, all of these things didn't happen overnight. They were the result of a dedication to a process that involves strategies and tactics that are not sexy, that are difficult, and that are mostly about tiny little things that you do every single day to move that ball forward imperceptibly and incrementally. And that's not sexy. That's difficult.

And that doesn't lend itself to a clickbait narrative. It's just hard. That's the truth. And deadlines play a big part in that. So when I started the podcast, I made a commitment to myself that I was going to publish a new episode every single week, no matter what. And I'm very proud of the fact that I've adhered to that. Like I haven't missed a single week. And, you know, for many years, it was one episode a week. And now we're doing six a month. Hopefully we're going to mature into eight a month. Like it's taken a long time to get to a place where I feel comfortable doing more and more and more. But simply by making that rule that

I'm going to put one up every week, no matter what, forced me to basically get my shit together and find a guest and produce it and post-produce it and get it up. I mean, in the early days, I was editing the show myself on GarageBand. I was putting it up on the, I did every, there was no facet. I was the only person doing it. So I had to learn every component of what's entailed in creating a podcast from how you get it on iTunes to what mic should I be using and how am I recording this? Now I have a team, but that didn't happen overnight. It took many, many years. So I think what happens is people want the success. They want the result. They don't appreciate the hard work that goes into it.

And they're not patient enough to undertake the long journey required and the learning that gets packed into all of that to mature and grow over time. And I think I said this to you before, I believe we discussed this idea that most people overestimate what they can do in a short period of time, whether it's a month or six months or a year, and wildly underestimate what they're capable of accomplishing over a decade or a number of years. And I think that's part of why people peter out on New Year's resolutions. Like they're not seeing the results that they want right away. They haven't created a structure with interim goals and deadlines built into that where

they can measure their progress incrementally, and they lose enthusiasm for it. So if I do have any kind of special skill, it isn't that I'm an innately talented athlete or a naturally gifted podcaster. It's that I appreciate the journey itself, and I'm willing to put in the work when no one's looking. And I've learned over time in every facet of my life that that work pays off over time, but you have to be unbelievably patient and resist that sense of entitlement that you get, that when you undertake something difficult, that you need to be reaping the rewards. Like I'm just about the work and the process itself. And I've been lucky enough to engage in processes that I love so that I enjoy the journey itself. But by simply being about

that journey and that process, that's why I've been able to move my life into the place that it is today. I mean, thanks for sharing that Rich. It's very, very powerful. I've been diving deep into Ryan Holiday's books over the last few days. And what's interesting as I learn more about Stoicism and I think about Eastern philosophies and Western philosophies what you have just been summarizing there is actually something that I feel Eastern and Western philosophies although can seem quite different at times, where they really do converge is on the idea of process over outcome, journey over destination. You know,

whether it's the Stoics talking about it, or whether it's Lord Krishna and the Bhagavad Gita talking about not enjoying the fruits of your labor, you do the labor for the sake of the labor. I think you beautifully demonstrate in that, that you didn't have a goal to be the number whatever podcast in the world, or it to be this big juggernaut of a show, which is listened to all around the globe. It was a commitment you made to yourself. I'm releasing once a week, every week without fail. And that word to yourself, I think is very powerful. A lot of us break the words that we make to ourselves. And I think that's potentially the start of when friction starts to arrive in our life,

which can lead us down a slippery slope. But I want to know Rich, that vow you made to yourself, if vow is not, you know, overreaching, was it always a good thing? Or did at times it become a noose around your neck? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now.

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Until the end of January, AG1 are giving a limited time offer. Usually, they offer my listeners a one-year supply of vitamin D and K2 and five free travel packs with their first order. But until the end of January, they are doubling the five free travel packs to 10. And these packs are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office, or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. Yeah, I would say it's a little bit of both. I mean, I think there's a,

this is particular to me in a little bit of self-understanding. Like I'm somebody who is a bit of an extreme personality and I need these rules to like stay on track, right? Because I know for myself, if I missed a week, nothing changes, like the earth still spins on its axis and I can still release an episode later than that. But personally, if I break that rule, then it just becomes easier to break it again. And I know myself well enough to know that if I break it once, maybe I won't break it again in the next month. But six months later, I'll be like, well, you know, I didn't put up an episode

that week. So I can do another week. Like, what's the big deal? And then it'll be a month before I do it again. And then I'll just break it all the time. Like, I just know that about myself, which is why I create these rules for myself. And I do it across the board in various aspects of my life. Like, I don't eat meat or dairy. I have that rule for myself. I don't drink or take drugs. Like, that's a hard rule for myself. And I need those in order to kind of stay on track. Now, those rules can also work at cross purposes with your goal. If you are too rigid about them, this works for me. And I try to create rules that are still very doable in the construct of my life. I think the problem occurs when you establish a rule that isn't sustainable, right? So putting one podcast up a week, it's not that hard. It's

pretty sustainable. But if I was to say, I'm going to put a podcast up every single day, I wouldn't have lasted very long before I broke that rule. And perhaps I would have flamed out on podcasting altogether and just quit. So the trick is creating guidelines, you know, sort of signposts along the way that you, you know, privately adhere to that are sustainable and workable within the construct of your life that are still healthy and manageable, but also difficult enough that they keep you honest. I mean, I think the macro rule, if you're to telescope up to 30,000 feet, is really, are you living your life intentionally, or are you living your life reactively? And I think a lot of people are living vast aspects of their life in reaction to the world around them rather than intentionally

in accordance with a plan or a rubric or a set of personal guideposts to help them make the proper decisions to lead them in the direction they want to go. And it's never been more easy to live your life reactively. Like we're constantly stimulated. We've deprived ourselves of the ability to be bored, to engage in our, you know, creative minds. We don't have the downtime that we used to have. We're too busy, too stressed, under rested, you know, overly stimulated. And I think when you're in that state, it's very easy to live your life on autopilot and just proceed. This is my life. This is what I do and never step outside of it to question or to analyze why is it that you're doing things this way? Is there a better way? Is this leading me

where I need or want to go? And then years go by until you reach some inflection point or endure some kind of crisis that forces you to stop and take inventory of how you're living and make appropriate changes. So really, the know, the rules or the guideposts, whether it's I'm putting up a podcast a week, or I'm going to wake up at this time of day, or I'm going to exercise three times a week, or I'm going to eat these foods and not these foods, or I'm going to go to bed at this particular time, or no screens, you know, within an hour of sleep, or whatever it is. I think being proactive about those things, making a commitment to yourself is an act of self-love. And then recruiting community for

purposes of accountability to keep you on track. These are tools that I've deployed and employed in various aspects of my life, both in the podcast and outside of the podcast, to simply be a better human and to live more consciously, mindfully, and intentionally. And I think that's applicable to everybody, no matter who you are, where you find yourself on this carousel of life. How do you deal with the scenario where a guest is sitting opposite you? And they're a bit nervous. And they may not be giving their best accounts of themselves. You know, what can we learn potentially from how you manage that situation? I mean, has it happened much? And when it does happen, do you have a process and a strategy to try and help them through?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think I hadn't really experienced much of that until the last couple of years. And I would say that I struggled with the idea of beginning to film the podcast for that very reason. I felt it important to evolve the show into a visual format and to be able to share it on YouTube. And that's, you know, had its own evolution. But I was also very aware as somebody who really is, you know, going for the emotional connection that once you introduce a camera into the equation, you know, people tend to act differently. Even the most polished, confident, relaxed person is going to be a little bit more, you know, back straight up when they know there's a camera staring at them. So that's something that,

you know, I'm still trying to figure out. And with the new studio, we're going to be able to move the cameras back and try to make them less obtrusive. But there is a certain person who gets really rigid and nervous. And that is heightened by the introduction of a camera. And when that occurs, and it has happened a few times, I mean, all I try to do is lighten the mood. And if I have to shift gears and ask them about something I feel like they're really at ease talking about, that's what I'll do to try to get them to relax or tell a joke or get them to forget that there's a camera or a microphone in front of them. And once I can get

them engaged with a particular subject matter that they care about or that they're passionate about, everything else starts to fall away. I also think eye contact is really important with that as well, if I can maintain eye contact with that person and just really give them that sense, like, it's okay, you're safe here. And I'll do that through just, you know, facial expressions or my personal demeanor. And sometimes it takes a few minutes, but to cajole them into that sense that it's going to be okay. And then once you get them rolling and everything else drops away, and it's just two people looking at each other, then it's back on track.

Yeah. I mean, I love that. And I think there's a lot there that many of us can learn from that. You know, when people are struggling, when people are not at their best, when people don't feel safe, let's lean in, let's connect. Let's smile. Let's talk about things that they like talking about. That is human connection because those little facial expressions. I mean, it's funny. I think on maybe my last appearance on your show or the one before that, I think I sort of said, well, it's interesting. I feel that I've been podcasting my entire life, even though I've only technically been podcasting for, you know, coming up to three years, because I've been seeing patients for nearly 20 years. So what do I do? I sit down and

I talk and I always think about connecting first before trying to give them any education or wisdom that I may feel a need to share. I learned very early that you connect first once you've connected, that once they know that you actually care, they're all ears. And so I feel I bring hopefully the skill I have in a consultation room into the podcast realm. Of course, it's different, but it's not as different as you might imagine, actually, because ultimately it's

human connection, right? Yeah. Well, in your office, a patient comes in and that's a safe environment. And whatever they say to you is protected by law, right? So you're creating an environment in which they feel safe and they need to feel safe in order for you to treat that patient. And I would say in my case, there's a couple things that I employ. The first thing is that if I have that sense that somebody is nervous, I lead with vulnerability. Like I'll share something about myself that I'm embarrassed about. And that's basically my way of saying like, it's okay. Like you can be vulnerable here. I can't expect you to be vulnerable if I'm not going to be

vulnerable. And so I try to set the tone in that regard. And in the way that you kind of learned how to podcast by the way that you interact with your patients in the treatment room, I had two great educations that in retrospect, looking back, were training grounds for being an effective podcast host. The first is thousands of hours spent in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings through the process of getting recovery. And, you know, for people who are unfamiliar with what that world is all about, you basically sit in rooms and people get up and share the most vulnerable aspects of their life. And they do it with courage and with humor. of their life. And they do it with courage and with humor. And it's quite inspiring, you know, to hear people get up who at one point in their life were utterly broken and share how they piece things together and do it in a way where they're relating stories that to the normal person would

seem horrifying. There's something so beautiful and inspirational about that. And that's where I learned how to be a public speaker because I would do the same. I would get up and share my story. And it gave me such a profound appreciation for the power of vulnerability and the power of storytelling and the power of storytelling and the power of personal narrative. And a big impetus or motivation in me starting the podcast was I wanted to give the broader public a taste or a sense of what that experience is like. Because irrespective of whether you're a drug addict or an alcoholic, I think there's so much that can be gleaned and learned from that type of experience.

And I wanted to recreate aspects of that in the conversations that I'm hosting. The second training ground for me was as an attorney where I took a zillion depositions. where I took a zillion depositions. I just sit across from somebody who's in an antagonistic position from me, the opposite of vulnerability, where they're trying to protect themselves at all costs and learn how to ask the right questions to elucidate the kind of information

that I'm trying to get. So one is, the first is a very touchy-feely thing. And the second is a very practical kind of information extraction process. And I think the two of those together have served me well as a host. Have you ever been in a situation on your show where because of the intensity of the conversation, because of what a guest is sharing with you, that you've ended up sharing something that you weren't even quite aware of. You kind of knew,

but you hadn't properly voiced it yet. And I guess I'm asking that because I have, and I can perhaps share that with you shortly, but I'm really interested as to whether that's ever happened to you. It happens all the time. It happens all the time. And I'm pretty much an open book. So when I get interviewed, people are like, is there anything you don't want to talk about? I was like, no, just whatever you want to ask me, it's fine, you know, and then we'll start talking. And then I'll just say something. And I was like, Oh, I didn't even think I was going to say that. Or, you know, maybe I shouldn't have said that. But it's always been fine. So I just, you know,

I'm not even always aware of it, because I do it so frequently. But I'll throw it back at you. What was it that just happened where you shared something you weren't ready to share? So this was with a chap called Vivek Murthy, who used to be your Surgeon General. And I can't remember the exact timing of this, but it was maybe a week or two after what happened with George Floyd. I can't remember the exact timing. It's a bit of a blur. But I remember having the conversation with him and he was such a softly spoken, warm, just a beautiful soul, it felt like across the Zoom screen. I actually did feel a powerful connection, although it was on Zoom. And he shared a few things about his own life, which were really powerful. And I don't know where it came from. I feel, as I've shared with you before, I feel the whole of 2020 has been personal growth on steroids. I feel, as I've shared with you before, I feel the whole of 2020 has been personal growth on

steroids. I feel that, frankly, doing a podcast is the best personal growth anyone can possibly do, because you learn about yourself constantly. I certainly don't feel I would be where I am physically, emotionally, spiritually, if I didn't have a podcast. emotionally, spiritually, if I didn't have a podcast. But something happened then, something that I had buried inside me. And again, you know, I don't think I realized how much it had bothered me came out in that conversation. I didn't mean to, it just sort of came out. And all it was, Rich, was between my first book and my second book, I was in a meeting in Penguin Random House in London. And my first book had been, you know, a big success over here. And we were sitting in a meeting and, you know, as is normal. And this is only relevant in sort of hindsight, but, you know, it's a very

white middle class environment. I was the only non-white middle class person, I think, in the room, which is what I'm used to for most of my life. And they said, Ron, we've got really good news. I said, what is it? It's like your new book, The Stress Solution that's coming out. We've got great distribution everywhere. Because one of the major retailers wouldn't stock your first book because they already had a book on the shelves by an Indian doctor. And I didn't even know how much that had bothered me, Rich. But what happened is in that moment, no one said anything. I felt discomfort. But as has been my learned behavior with my father and my mom, who were

immigrants to the UK, which is keep your mouth shut. Don't make fuss. Get your head down. Work hard. That's how you get far in life. I didn't say anything. No one said anything. We just carried on. I remember walking out just thinking, just feeling a slight discomfort, but then I buried it. I buried it. The point I was simply trying to make is the medium of podcasting, and we'll come to the book because I think that's so powerful about what you can learn from the medium of podcasting, but it's so powerful that I expressed something that I hadn't even expressed, I think, to my friends or my family. It was buried inside me. I almost felt guilty, Rich. I thought, well, hold or my family. It was buried inside me. You know, I almost felt

guilty, Rich. I thought, well, hold on. I'm, you know, I'm in inverted commas successful. You know, oh, they wouldn't stop my book, poor Rangan. But actually what it did for me is bring up loads of shame that I've carried my entire life of not feeling that I fit in, of growing up in a white middle-class neighborhood, being the only Indian kid or family at school, always feeling that you're clashing with your culture at home to the culture around you. So that's a shortened version of what I shared. Right. But in deconstructing that, what I heard is that Vivek led with vulnerability. So he demonstrated his comfort with being vulnerable in whatever anecdote or story he shared with you.

And that opened the door where you felt comfortable sharing something that you hadn't anticipated or planned on sharing. So that's a perfect illustration of your original question, like what do you do when somebody isn't feeling settled or whatever? You lead with vulnerability and you create that permissive, comfortable space for that kind of honest exchange. And those are the magic moments. So whatever else happened in that podcast, obviously what's most meaningful to you, and I would wager for your audience as well is you having the willingness to share a story like that if we talk about race one thing that really impressed me was your willingness to dive into a topic that externally at, you didn't need to, in the sense that a lot of people don't like this topic. A lot of people get quite defensive about it. Yet you leaned in, and you didn't have to.

And I'm sure because I saw some of it, there would have been criticism to you about you. some of it, there would have been criticism to you about you. You know, I saw comments like, you know, I saw one comment, which was, man, that's it. You know, I've loved you for seven years. But you know, I'm moving on now, which is very reflective that, oh, really, we have to 100% love someone. We can't like them 90% and disagree with them. You know, it's very reflective of where society is going. But, you know, what was going on then in your mind? And why did you go into this area that business wise, brand wise, right? You probably didn't need to. Where did that urge come from? Yeah, I mean, not only did I not need to, I did it at great peril in terms of, you know, the risk that I incurred by doing that. And I stand by it and

I'm very proud of the fact that I made my voice known. And I'm also hyper aware that a lot of people were not happy with that decision. And I probably lost, you know, audience share as a result of that. But the truth is that when the world started to get super crazy, I felt compelled to share my perspective. And that's a function of a couple things. First of all, what's the point in having a large platform if you're not going to leverage it for what you feel strongly is the greater good? Otherwise, it feels like an academic exercise. And as the parent to two young daughters, I felt it important to raise my voice about these issues that I care about and to be on the right side of history and to play some small part in the gestalt of positive change.

And I know very well that most of the people who kind of do what I do made a different decision. And I think that decision is motivated for factors that I can understand. Like it's financially perilous to like step out of this lane that you're in to talk about subjects political and social, knowing that not everybody's going to like it. And I'm somebody for whom that's very uncomfortable. I'm a people pleaser. I don't court controversy. I'm not, you know, a political pundit. I'm not trying to divide people. I'm trying to unite them. And my whole podcast has been about creating a space where people from all walks of life and perspectives can congregate around timeless ideas. congregate around timeless ideas. Historically, every podcast I put up is essentially evergreen. It doesn't quite matter when I publish it because it's about an idea that is just as relevant today as it was five years ago or eight years ago when I started the podcast. the podcast. But as the kind of political and social turmoil began to accelerate, I felt like I needed to step behind, step out from behind this microphone and be a little bit more proactive

about my ideas. I mean, like yourself, we have these amazing conversations with individuals, but it's about the guest, right? And I felt like I needed to be able to express my perspective in a bit of a more unfiltered way and to also use the podcast to bring on a greater diversity of voices than I had in the past. Like I became very aware of just how white, you know, my podcast had been. And it was, you know, like sort of, you know, being, you know, calling my own self to the mat and really doing a deep dive into, you know, just how much growth I still had to do to learn and to be better and to be this voice of positive change. And, you know, I made this commitment that I was going to step into it knowing that, you know, a lot of people were going to be unhappy. And I've had a couple very overt,

you know, political podcasts that have been met with mixed results. You know, a lot of people are delighted and they're like, thank you for speaking up. And, you know, privately, most people are like, wow, that was really, you know, that's really something that you've been doing that. But I also get a lot of emails. And if you're to peruse the YouTube comments, you know, there's a lot of angry people out there as well. And I knew that going in and I said to myself, you have to be okay with that. And I am okay with it. And I feel like I can stand behind everything that I've said in those episodes. And I'm going to continue to explore those tricky subject matters and do it from a place of the highest consciousness that I

can summon. Again, I'm not here to cast aspersions or divide people. I really do want to be able to have nuanced conversations about these difficult subjects. But it's impossible to do that without upsetting some people or ruffling some feathers. possible to do that without upsetting some people or ruffling some feathers. As a people pleaser, what was it like when, on one hand, you want to do what's right, you feel there are social responsibilities, I've got a big platform. This is a big issue. I want to contribute to this. What was it like when some of those comments started coming back? Was it hard? Were you totally okay with it? Or did you have to go through a process of going, hold on a minute, why am I doing this? What is going on there? Or were you just like, yeah, man, I'm totally zen

with this? Definitely not totally zen. I mean, I'm still in it, you know? And I think when you say people pleaser, like I say that as a pejorative, like that's a character defect, I think. And I started the podcast to continue my own personal growth. I had gotten sober and changed my relationship with food and with exercise and had, you know, transformed myself tremendously. But I was also very aware that I still have tons of blind spots and I wanted to continue to evolve. And the podcast is like my own personal therapy to bring people on to help me with that and to share their wisdom, but also in a self-serving way to help me with my own issues,

right? Of which I have many. And recognizing that I'm almost a pathological people pleaser is something that I feel like I need to overcome. Like on one level, being a people pleaser is probably what motivates me to have podcasts that appeal to as many people as possible. But ultimately it gets in the way of being authentic. And also it's, it, it, it exists in tension often with doing the right thing. Like you can't please everybody and stay true to your convictions. And that tension is something that I wanted to explore. So it was very uncomfortable for me to step outside of hiding behind the microphone when I have guests on to address the audience a little bit more directly and to talk about those convictions, understanding that that was completely at odds with being a

people pleaser. So the growth has been amazing because I believe it's provided me this opportunity to kind of evolve past that, you know, that desire to be liked and to step more into following my convictions and to, you know, do what I feel is correct in the broadest sense. But that doesn't mean that when I read these emails or see these comments that it's not upsetting. So what I have to do is just, you know, always remind myself that I knew this was going to happen and to not let it affect me. And sometimes I'm successful with that and sometimes I'm not. But I've really had to step back from perusing the comments. And that's a growth curve as well, because that's also an exercise in ego, like, oh, let's see what everyone's saying. Are they saying nice things about me? Like, you can't believe, you know, if you want to like dismiss all the negative comments,

then you can't believe the good comments as well. So the health journey for me has been in creating a boundary between myself and all of the feedback, not just the negative feedback, but the positive feedback as well. It sounds like you intentionally chose to stress test your system. If you thought you were okay, and you've got your stuff together, you just cranked it up, go, okay, how okay am I? You know, what needs work? As I said, when on your show what's the what's the hamstring strain that's that's always there but when you're walking around in your life you don't feel it it's only when you go for a run or you get to 10k you're like oh my hand is hurting well that was probably

there that imbalance is still there day to day but until you crank it up you're not having that exposed and i think you intentionally did that with those episodes in some ways. It is what 2020 has done to many people completely unintentionally. It has stress tested their setup and their makeup to see where's your blind spot? Where's your weakness? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the

architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health, and together, we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour, and I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now journaling is something that I've been recommending to my

patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all

ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal, completely free, on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal,

or click on the link in your podcast app. a new podcast app. Yeah, I mean, I think the stress test analogy is perfect. I mean, I would add to that also that you can't be afraid to always try new things and evolve and iterate on something. And I think that this was also an exercise in that. Like I've been doing this show a certain way for a very long time and I didn't want it to feel static or boilerplate. And, you know, I felt compelled to like, how can we breathe fresh air into this? Well, let's try a different kind of format and see how that goes. And I think podcasting allows you to do that. Like if it didn't work, like I'll just go back to doing it the way that I was doing it before. But in order to grow, you got to step

outside your comfort zone. And I was very much in a comfort zone with how I was doing the show. And it became very successful with that. But I also don't like the idea of just living in that space where it's easy. It's like, well, let's push the boundaries here. Like what are, you know, what happens if we go in this direction or what happens if we try that? And, you know, so, so, you know, the change in the format and the playing around with it was also, you know, a function of, of that sensibility of not getting too comfortable with doing things the way that I'd been doing them just because it was working. Yeah, you've used the word change a lot there,

which of course is the second word from your book, your new book, Voicing Change. But we're talking about change. We're talking about long form conversation nuance. As you share your process with the podcast, I feel I've learned a lot about what I can do in my own life to improve in certain areas. I would love to think that the listeners and viewers are also going, hey, well, that's about a podcast. It's actually about my life and my relationships and how I show up for life. And I feel that the kind of subtitle, And I feel that the kind of subtitle, Inspiration and Timeless Wisdom from the Ritual Podcast, is very, very apt. So let's get into the book, which actually, it's always I don't like calling it a book because in many ways by labeling it a book, it kind of, it goes alongside all the other books and small, you know, trade black and white.

It is, it is a work of art. It really is. It's something that I feel has got a life to it. You want to hold it. You want to feel it. You want to touch it. You want to, you know, it's, it feels different to me. And it's clear that a lot of time and attention has gone into it. What was the thinking behind it? And why have you decided to go down the self-publishing routes? Yeah. So first of all, thank you. I think it's a work of art too. And it's very much the product of a team effort. Yes, it's my podcast and these are conversations that I've had with these individuals, but I'm blessed to be working with a number of very talented artists, photographers, graphic designers who helped compile this book. So I'd be remiss in not crediting the team component of what went into creating this work of art. And I'm super proud of it. And it is, you know, intended to be

And I'm super proud of it. And it is, you know, intended to be immersive in that respect and tactile. Like people are like, when's the audio book coming out? I'm like, you don't understand. The audio book is the podcast. There's a thousand hours. It's a thousand hour audio book. It's available for free. But this was intended to be a love letter to the many guests like yourself that I've had on the show, a love letter to the audience, and an introduction for people who are unfamiliar with the work that I've done to give them a flavor and a sense of the experience that I'm trying to create with this show. And I'm somebody who cares a lot about detail

and aesthetics and design. And I wanted the book to reflect that sensibility that I try to inject into the show. And it's very modern in a coffee table kind of format. But the idea is to leverage that modern format. But the idea is to leverage that modern format in kind of a Trojan horse sort of way in the sense that you open it up and you're like, this is a beautiful book. Look at these amazing photographs. Like that's what gets you in the door. But what gets you in the door, but what gets you really engaged is the wisdom shared by these many people that I've been privileged to speak to over the years. So what we did is we went through,

we created transcripts of, you know, I picked 50 people over the eight years that I thought was a really good cross-sectional representation of the kind of guests and the people that inspire me. We transcribed those podcasts. We found the best chunks of wisdom from each of them. And those are matched with introductions that I've written to contextualize who these people are and why I feel like their message is important. And it's curated in a way that I feel like it hits every aspect of personal growth and well-being from diet and nutrition to athletic performance to mindset, to psychology, to entrepreneurship, to parenting and everything in between. And what's great is you can open it to any page and find something inspirational or interesting.

And you can leave it out on your coffee table for your guests to peruse when they come over and feel confident that it's kind of a beautiful work of art that anybody would enjoy. Yeah. How important is design aesthetic? And I guess where I'm, why that interests me so much is all my books today, including the new one that comes out in the UK in just a few weeks, are designed. I spend an enormous amount of time with the designer trying to make them look really good, but look really good, not just for design sake, to make it something that people want to pick up, to breathe a life into it. Now,

you've taken it to another level. That's the truth. I mean, I don't know how much these things cost to make and whether any mainstream publisher would what they would say to that. But I feel there's something about that where you, you know, of course, you could have put all that wisdom in a black and white book and it would still have the same words in it. But the method of delivery, I feel, hugely changes the experience and therefore changes how often people are going to pick it up and how much impact it's going to have. Yeah, I would agree with that. And you are somebody who creates beautiful books. it's clear that that design and aesthetics are important to you they're certainly important to me i think the details are are critical

and they're they're something that allows you to differentiate from you are in a visual context, if that makes sense. And I think ultimately what it does is it creates the emotional connection to the words and the work itself. So they are going to be more apt to pick it up because it's beautiful and alluring in that regard. And there's an emotional relationship that occurs. Like, you know, the ribbed cover of the book is intentional, like it has a texture to it. And that's meaningful to me. Like that's part of the experience that I'm trying to convey. And I think those things are important and part of the kind of sensibility that I'm trying to convey. So in the way that I'm trying to connect emotionally with every guest, I'm trying to connect with the readers emotionally and do it in a visual format.

And I think it works in that regard. And you's, I think it works, you know, in that regard. And you're correct in that, like the other part of your question that I didn't answer is like, why did we self-publish? This is, I mean, we made this decision for several reasons, not the least of which is, it is an expensive book to produce. And I knew as somebody who's done cookbooks and made visual books in the past that a publisher was going to be reticent to pay the kind of advance that I think a book like this deserves because it's expensive to produce. And it's going to be expensive for the consumer to buy, which means they're going to sell less copies. So it doesn't quite work optimally in that traditional publishing

format. And I now am in a position where I have the human resources and the financial resources to do it ourselves. And I wanted to have that experience of creating something pillar to post on our own without the interference of any gatekeepers or any intermediary saying, well, this is not how we do it. You know, it has to be like this. And we need your subtitle to be like this for metadata. And like, I didn't want to deal with any of that stuff. And I didn't want anybody having any say in what the cover was going to look like other than us. And I'm so proud of what we created. And I think it excels on every level.

And I think it's better than anything we would have been able to create with a publishing house. And now to own it outright and to manage every component of it from, what's the page thickness and like all the tiny little details that go into creating a book. Like I feel more emotionally connected to this book as a result of that. what's the page thickness and like all the tiny little details that go into creating a book. Like

I feel more emotionally connected to this book as a result of that. And now we're, you know, we basically did the print run and we're managing the fulfillment and we're shipping it ourselves and doing it only through our website, not even through Amazon, like we've sidestepped Amazon. So it's really very much a DIY thing that is completely outside of the whole publishing paradigm altogether. Now that presents its own challenges because shipping charges are extensive. Like if I want to send this book to you in the UK, it's going to cost like, we're so acclimated to like free shipping or super cheap shipping as a result of Amazon. But since we're not using Amazon, it's more expensive. And that means it's less accessible and we're going to sell less copies. But this is really a book for the fan.

It's a gift from a fan to somebody else. It doesn't have to sell to millions and millions of people. And there's something really liberating about not having to worry about what the pre-order campaign looks like and how many copies sell in the first week and making this list or that list. Like, I honestly don't care at all about any of that. This is just a work of passion that we created that we're making available for people that are interested in it. It's doing great. People are loving it. I'm super proud of it. And frankly, from a financial perspective, knowing that we're making, you know, instead of $1 a copy or whatever it is that when you, when you work with a publisher, like, you know, we have, you know, we're going to make like $20 a copy, which is the way it should

be. So it has its challenges and we, you know, dealing with customer service and all of that is tricky and, you know, we're learning as we go, but it's incredibly gratifying to, to do it yourself and, and to, you know, just own it completely. And I'm really enjoying that aspect of it. Yeah, I think it's just wonderful. I think it's a book for anyone. I think it's a great gift to give other people. It's a great gift to give yourself. I feel it's so gorgeous that on a day where you're not feeling so good, you can just sit there with a cup of tea or a cup of coffee and just randomly open a page. It's really nice. You don't have to read from start to finish. You can just open it. But there is something about what you're saying,

which is real artistic freedom in terms of every aspect of it. And, you know, that's the beautiful thing about it. It very much, I feel, you know, I remember, Rich, I was at your house. What are we in? We're recording this in November. I think it was last September. So 14 months ago, I think I was chatting to you about the stress solution on your show. And in between podcasts, I think we went into your gorgeous house. And I saw the kind of early proofs on the table. You're like, this is what I'm working on. I was like, oh man, that looks beautiful. And so to see that actually, you know, you very kindly sent me a copy and it's a gorgeous experience, even from getting it, the kind of the cardboard box, the kind of, even from getting it, the kind of the cardboard box, the kind of, it feels special. It's the opposite of disposable bite-sized media that we don't have time for. This is an experience,

right? This is a beautiful human experience, buying your book, receiving it, and then getting the wisdom from it. I thank you. Yeah. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. I love it. And I think also to the point about, you know, design, because this is such a design heavy book, like you've been to my house, I live in an architectural home and, and I've learned by living in the home that I live in, how important like architectural details are, which seem to be indulgent, but actually like are so, so to such a great degree, like inform the experience of how you live your life. And the book is kind of a, is a literary reflection of that sensibility. And it's also a way of saying, to your point about, you know, bite-sized disposable media, that these podcasts that I've done, some of which are many years old at this point,

just because they are in the past doesn't mean they're any less relevant or important now than they were when I recorded them. And I wanted this book to be a reminder of that, but also to say, I understand you don't have 100 hours to go and listen to all of these. So here's like in written form, a taste of what these people have to offer. So you can look at it and say, this is a person I want to learn more about, or this person I don't care about, and to revisit maybe podcasts you listened to quite a long time ago as a refresher course. Where can people order the book? It's available only on my website, richroll.com.

Richroll.com slash VC is the landing page for the book. And we ship it globally. Shipping charges in the UK are going to be expensive. We don't make any money on that. It's just, it is what it is. We're always looking for better shipping options, but we can get it to you. And that's the place to go to pick it up and learn more. The final area I felt I wanted to probe with you if you are willing to go there is something I

spoke about with a friend earlier on today who I was catching up with. And he's got teenage kids. He's got teenage kids. I don't. My children are 10 and 7. So I feel that in many ways, how I've dealt with the restrictions and the changes in society, I feel that they, in some ways, have been quite sheltered. Like, I think they're young enough where I can shelter them from it and interact in a way where I would like to think there has been minimal impact.

Of course, I don't know that for sure, but I would like to think so. But I do wonder if having teenagers where connecting with others and getting that independence and that sort of restriction, it's something he certainly found challenging. And he feels that there's been a few problems that have needed to be overcome. And also really struggling with the amount of screen time that has ensued from this and the reluctance to change that. I feel

he's wrestling with a few issues there. And I thought, I wonder if Rich might be wrestling with some of these issues as well, or what is his experience? So I wonder if you can sort of shed some light on whether this is something you're observing in your own life and if you have any kind of wisdom to share on that. Yeah, it's been incredibly difficult. I've got two daughters, two older step-sons and two daughters. My daughters are 16, almost 17 and 13. And I'm so sympathetic to that because their entire lives have been pulled out from underneath them. And now they're just at home at a moment in their lives where their social interactions are of paramount importance, especially with teenage girls. This is what I'm dealing with.

It's incredibly difficult. Like having played a large part, a large role as a stepfather to the boys who are now 25 and 24, I thought that I had some chops when it came to parenting, but nothing prepared me for the strange, mysterious genus of human that is the teenage girl. Like this has really flattened me in so many ways. And they've become my greatest teachers because they challenge me to such a profound effect and learning how to kind of surf the vicissitudes of their emotional experience has been really tricky and difficult. It would be under normal circumstances, but in a quarantined pandemic situation, everything is heightened a hundredfold.

And we've gone from this parenting mandate of screens are bad to suddenly you need to be on your screen all day. And I think that that's confusing for a young mind, for the parent to switch gears like that, to say you shouldn't be on your phone to now your entire experience, schooling experience is relegated to the screen. So for example, my older daughter, she goes to an art high school that it's like a performing arts high school where practical visual arts are a huge part of her academic curriculum. Well, it's all on Zoom now. Her Zoom day starts at 8 a.m. and it goes to 4 p.m. Those are just her academic classes. Then she has her practical art that she has to do. Then she has her homework, which is also performed on a screen.

And it's exhausting. And it's really made me rethink the value of this educational paradigm because the anxiety that she's experiencing, having no ability to, you know, untether herself from this computer screen and have any kind of experience outside of it has really been incredibly difficult for her. And I'm sympathetic to that to the point where myself being somebody who cares a lot about the educational experience and who is very driven, I'm now saying like, I don't care what your grades are because this is making you into a crazy person. Like what good is coming from any of this? And she really, she's a very social animal and needs to be with a lot of people in order to feel grounded.

And now she can't do any of that. And it's been really trying. Conversely, my other daughter is very much an introvert and she's doing a lot better with all of this. But you can see the progressive withdrawal that occurs. Like they just become more and more withdrawn, the more removed from the kind of daily cycle of being social animals becomes. And how you parent through that is a challenge. And I don't know that I have, you know, the ultimate answer other than, you know, to try to do the next right thing to stimulate them in certain ways. But I think that this is a situation that's going to have an indelible and unbelievably profound impact on this generation of people. And what that turns into, you know, five, 10 years from now when they're now in the workplace, you know, what are their priorities going to be? Like, what is the lens through which they perceive the world?

And I don't know that we can anticipate what that's going to look like other than, you know, my sense that it's significant. And I think we shouldn't be underestimating the kind of impact that this experience is having on young people. on young people. Yeah. It's interesting what you shared about the educational experience because the narrative is like, you know, the good schools are putting things online and therefore kids can keep learning. But I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced at all. And I understand the rationale behind it, but I do think there is a consequence. I think there's a behavioral consequence, there's consequence. I think there's a behavioral consequence, there's an emotional consequence. There's a conflict of messaging consequence, as you sort of alluded to at the start there. And I very much have been very, I appreciate my

kids are younger. So I don't think grades at 10 and seven necessarily are the same as your kids age, you know, as teenagers, I certainly accept that. But I very much be like, listen, I don't mind if you don't, if you don't do that class, you know, you want to go play in the garden, or go and read a book or go and play piano, you go for it. And that's also a conflicting messaging as well. Because it's kind of like, well, let's say things do go back to the way they were in schools. It's kind of like, let's say things do go back to the way they were in schools it's kind of like well hold on a minute daddy wasn't that bothered before and what now he is bothered you know it's i i think there is a confusion i i hey man i think some of this is hard to measure

but we're not measuring it anyway we're not measuring what we can measure we're measuring an acute rate of something that we can you you know, we can easily get figures that we can chuck on the news. But we're not measuring the mental health consequences or the fact that the amount of hand washing diktats that have been there. And I'm not, I'm sort of, I'm saying the consequence of that will be, I think, and I hope I'm wrong, is masses of OCD in five years and 10 years, where people think they have to hand wash everywhere all the time before they do anything, or be scared of other human beings because they are a risk of infection to me and i i unfortunately i think there could be a mental health epidemic that is about to be unleashed and i hope i'm wrong and i hope that people people with platforms like yours or mine can do our bit to try and contribute.

But I do worry. I do worry. I think this has been so transformative, 2020, that to think there will not be a consequence. I think when I spoke to you, I think on the second time on your show, I spoke about touch, human touch and how important that is for our reptilian brain and what it does. And, you know, that's kind of been going out of society for many months now. So I don't know, Rich, I mean, would you agree? Do you think we are on the cusp of something? And potentially to sort of finish off this conversation, what sort of words of wisdom might you offer people to think about

to help them through it? Well, before I answer that, I'll just chime in on your last thought. And to say that I agree. I think that it's devastating that we're raising a generation of people who are terrified of human touch. How long is it going to be before you can be in a room with somebody else and not worry about what might happen if you shake their hand or hug them? And what is the long-term impact of that trepidation on a young mind. And I think we're not adequately calibrating that in how we're responding to this virus. And that's not to say that the pandemic isn't something to be taken seriously, but I think it's incumbent upon us as parents to ensure that we're not raising a generation of people who are terrified by the world, right? How do we responsibly navigate through this without becoming

unnecessarily afraid of things that we can't control? And I think that's where the work is required. And I think that, you know, short of that, we are going to see massive mental suffering as a result of this as young people mature. And, you know, what that looks like, I think the only thing we can do, you know, to bring it back to stoicism in some regard is to identify the things that we can control and focus on the controllables and let go of everything else and to shift our perspective on everything that is transpiring across the globe and in culture from a fear-based perspective into this sense of what it can do for us. The idea being like, this isn't happening to us, it's happening for us. Where is the lesson in all of this? Where is the learning opportunity? Where is the growth opportunity in what is transpiring? And I think the more you can kind of inhabit that

sensibility where you're approaching these obstacles and these challenges, not from a place of being afraid and rearing back from it, but leaning into it and saying, oh, this is revealing to me this thing that I didn't want to look at, but now I have the opportunity to look at. Let me work through this. Or with this restriction, how can I find something, a creative solution to the problem that I'm trying to solve? And the more you can train yourself to approach all of these difficulties from that perspective, I think not only do you become more anti-fragile and resilient and more robust in your stress response to the world, you grow as a result. And I think you put yourself in a position to emerge out

of this very strange era, not only a little bit more self-actualized, but in a better position to handle greater difficulties down the road. Rich, you're an incredible human being. You're an inspiration to many people around the world. You're the first guest that's been on this show three times. And I think there's no guest I would rather have come on for the third time. The book is wonderful.

It is a gift to the world. You have had a incredibly positive impact on my own life. I want to thank you for that. I want to thank you for your time today. And I can't wait for round four. Appreciate that, my friend. Much love, Rangan. And likewise, you inspire me.

I'm proud of what you've built with the podcast and the way in which you communicate and advocate to the world. So please keep doing it. And I look forward to that moment and hopefully the not too distant future when I can get on a plane and fly to England and spend a little more time with you. For sure. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, have a think about one thing that you can take away and start applying into your own life. And if you heard last week's conversation with Professor Laurie Santos from Yale on happiness, you may remember that doing something for somebody else benefits you as well as them. So why not take a moment

right now and share this podcast with a few people in your network who you feel would enjoy listening. You could text them a link right now along with a personal note. It's going to make your friend feel good and it's also going to make you happier. It's a win-win all round. If you want to learn more about Rich, please head to the show notes page for this episode on my website and you can see links to his new book, some really good articles that he's written and his social media channels. Now, if you'd followed me for some time, you will know that I love to spread helpful, positive health information. I try to do this on the show, but also on social media. The problem these days is that only a tiny percentage of my social media

followers actually end up seeing any of my posts because of the social media algorithms. Now to counter this, a few weeks ago I started a brand new weekly newsletter called Friday Five. It contains five short doses of positivity. It could be a practical tip for your health to try this week. A book or article that I found inspiring, a quote that has caused me to stop and reflect. Basically, anything that I feel would be helpful to share with you. I only started it a few weeks back. Feedback has been incredible.

If you like my podcast and like what I stand for, I think you are really going to enjoy Friday Five. It is not spam. It really aims to bring you value each and every single week. If you're interested in signing up, you can go to drchatterjee.com forward slash Friday Five. And if you sign up, I'll also send you my sleep masterclass video series. A big thank you to my wife, Vedanta Chatterjee for producing this week's podcast and to Richard Hughes for audio engineering. Have a wonderful week.

Make sure you have pressed subscribe, and I'll be back in one week's time with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it. Because when you feel better, you live more.