Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #155 The Power of Plants, Love and Connection with Dr Gemma Newman

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

This week I’m delighted to welcome friend and fellow GP, Dr Gemma Newman to the podcast. Gemma is someone who I really respect, not only is she incredibly knowledgeable, she always leads with kindness and compassion – values that I aspire to myself. Gemma has recently released her first book, The Plant Power Doctor: A Simple Prescription for a Healthier You. Having been a doctor for 17 years, Gemma has learned a lot by interacting with her patients but like for so many of us, she has also learned powerful life lessons through her own life experience. Gemma has a strong family history of heart disease and in her early days as a junior doctor, she found herself to be carrying excess weight and was exhausted. This led to her making some changes to what she ate and how she moved, which helped her lose weight. In fact, she dropped from a size 18 to a size 8 but when she checked her blood levels, she found some concerning results. Initially, Gemma put these results down to her genes and did nothing more about it until she started researching a whole-food plant based diet. Following this research, she decided to give this way of eating a go and she shares the transformative effect it had on her and some of her patients. This is a wide-ranging conversation. We discuss how many of the chronic illnesses we face - including heart disease, cancer, type 2 diabetes, hormonal dysfunction and obesity - can be helped with changes to our lifestyle. We also talk about Gemma’s own near-death experience and the topic of spirituality. Finally, Gemma shares her brilliant top tips, which you can put into practice immediately to change the way that you feel. At the heart of all Gemma’s advice is compassion and kindness and I’m sure you’ll enjoy this conversation as much as I did! Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/155 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

I think where I got my heaviest was actually when I started being a doctor. Yeah, that's so ironic, isn't it? I was doing all of these night shifts. I was trying to get junk food on the wards because I was so tired. I thought, I just need a quick energy boost because there's a box of chocolates on the ward, biscuits in the doctor's mess. They bring in Domino's pizzas. And so I found myself exhausted. I was a junior doctor, I'd get home from work, and I'd want to be falling asleep at the dinner table. I thought, I've only just started my career, I'm trying to help people, and I can't even stay awake. I need to do something about this.

Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. This week's conversation is with my friend and fellow GP, Dr. Gemma Newman. Now Gemma is someone who I really respect. Not only is she incredibly knowledgeable, it's the way she conducts herself that impresses me the most. She's someone who always leads with kindness and compassion. She never speaks badly about other people and these are values that I aspire to myself and really value in others. Now Gemma has recently become a first-time author with the publication of her book, The Plant Power Doctor, a simple prescription for a healthier you. Gemma's been a doctor for 17 years and she's learned a lot through interacting with her

patients. But like for so many of us, she's also learned powerful lessons through her own life experience. Gemma's got a strong family history of heart disease and in her early days as a junior daughter she found herself to be carrying a lot of excess weight and she felt exhausted. This led to her making some changes to what she ate and how she moved and yes this did help her to lose weight. In fact she dropped from a size 18 to a size 8. But when she checked her blood levels, she found some concerning results. Now, initially, Gemma put these results down to her genetics and did nothing more about it

until she started researching a whole food plant-based diet. Following this research, Gemma decided to give this way of eating a go, and she shares the transformative effect it's had on her and some of her patients. What's fascinating for me is that Gemma has found a way of eating that works for her and her lifestyle and as you've heard me say many times before this is something that I always strive for with my own patients. In our conversation we explore all kinds of different topics. We discuss how many of the

chronic illnesses we face including heart disease cancer type 2 diabetes hormonal dysfunction and obesity can be helped with changes to our lifestyle we also talk about Gemma's own near-death experience and the topic of spirituality at the end of conversation, Gemma shares some of her brilliant top tips, which you can put into practice immediately to change the way that you feel. At the heart of all Gemma's advice is compassion and kindness. And I'm sure you'll enjoy this conversation

as much as I did. Now, my conversation with Dr. Gemma Newman. I fully appreciate I'm a man talking about this, right? And, you know, I would say there's pressure on men as well, but I certainly think that there is, there's unique pressures on the sexes, but I certainly do think for women, for many years, there's been this pressure, you know, I've, I think I've been more aware of it since I got married, but there's always been a pressure on women to look a certain way. I think that's now also started to be the case with men. But I think it's happened with women for a lot longer. And I know when researching you, Gemma, that you once were size 18.

And you went down to a size eight. And I wonder if, you know, how did you feel when you were size 18? What was going on then? So you're're right i think society does tend to look at women in and women are more valued for their aesthetic on the whole this is a huge generalization obviously but i think it stands that the different sort of um sort of sex tropes are true so men tend to be valued for perhaps sort of contributing or earning money, being the provider, and women tend to be more valued in society for the way that they look. And I think hopefully that's beginning to change. So for me, I didn't feel too much different in myself about being a bigger size because I was never really that. I was always a fairly quietly confident person. I felt that my worth was more from within. But having said that, I did fall prey to the usual

insecurities that most women have, making sure that I sort of try to look my best when I'm going out, make sure that I have got my makeup on, wearing a nice dress. And so I did feel more confident gradually as I began to lose weight, but it wasn't a part of who I was. I didn't feel like my identity had shifted too much. Like I still felt me. Main thing I really noticed was I had a lot more energy and I just felt as though I had more motivation, as it were, to sort of do the things I wanted to do, which didn't necessarily come from the aesthetic, more the fact that I was just doing more physical movement and I was making healthier choices. And so, yeah, I think for me it was mainly an energy and motivation increase more than anything else.

Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting. Were you as size 18 as a teenager? Did you put on weight at uni? What happened then? Because I'm really interested in this because obviously you know we're both GPs and you know weight is something that comes up a lot. So I think it was late teens. And then I started medical school. And then there was just having to cook away from home and not really looking after yourself. So it kind of continued a little bit there. Then over time, it just sort of dipped a little bit. I think I had managed to lose a little bit just because I was more active in the sort of middle years of med school. And then it went back up a little bit. So it was kind of like, it's more of a,

rather than it being kind of like a mountain up and a mountain down, it was more of sort of rolling hills of change over time, just without me really being consciously aware of it. I think where I got my heaviest was actually when I started being a doctor. The irony. Yeah, that's so ironic, isn't it? I was doing all of these night shifts, shift patterns. We know they're not great for our metabolism. I was trying to get junk food on the wards, chocolates, because I was so tired.

I thought, I just need a quick energy boost because there's a box of chocolates on the wall of biscuits in the doctor's mess. They bring in dominoes pieces. And so I found myself exhausted. I'd get home from work. I was a junior doctor. I'd get home from work and I'd want to be falling asleep at the dinner table. I thought, I've only just started my career. I'm trying to help people and I can't even stay awake. I need to do something about this. And so that was one of my first sort of impetuses to actually make a change because I wanted to be able to serve people in the way that reflected, I suppose, a synergy because me being exhausted and overweight was not really sort of living what I was hoping to help other people to achieve. And so, yeah, that's when I thought, well, okay, I know that lifestyle has an impact because I'm not looking after myself.

So I started to exercise more and I ate more sort of salads and chicken and fish and all the things that we do to sort of think that we're doing well with what we're eating. And that's basically what helped with what we're eating. And that's basically what helped me to get right down. I had specific goals in mind at that time. I think that's probably the most intense. I thought, no, I need to get more energy. I need to give myself specific targets. Otherwise, I'll just keep on my sort of rolling hill trajectory back and forward. Because I never really thought about it before. And I think this is the other thing is, I am naturally, according to my genetics, somebody that has a tendency to gain weight. And so I thought, well, if I actually do put a little bit of active thought into it and move my body more and have these goals in mind, then I'll hopefully achieve what I want to achieve

and get there. And I did get there. And I was pleased. But there was still a part of me that realized it wasn't necessarily the full answer because I had a raised lipid profile. I decided to get my blood test checked. I thought, I'm in the prime of my life. I'm fit. I'm healthy. I've got so much energy.

And so I was very disappointed when I got my blood results and found that I still had a raised lipid profile because I do have a strong family history of heart disease, which is one of our biggest killers. And I thought that I'd managed to minimize my risks, but I hadn't. I knew that my grandfather died suddenly. He died whilst playing tennis in his early 60s. And I didn't know it then, but my father was also going to die in his late 50s the same way he sort of he suddenly collapsed and had a heart attack after a minor car accident but I didn't that hadn't happened at that point but I realized that oh I haven't managed to change that and I

sort of thought that was perhaps my genetic destiny and I wasn't going to go to do anything about it until a few years later when I sort of decided to look a bit more into nutrition research yeah. I mean there's a lot to unpack there I just want to back up a second because it's interesting for me that it seems as though your drive to get healthier lose weight wasn't so much coming from a cosmetic viewpoint. No, it never did for me. And I think that's because... That's very unusual, I think. It is unusual. I appreciate that. And you see it all over social media, people wanting these sort

of bikini bodies and things like that, especially for women. There's a lot of pressure, I do think, to look a certain way. But for me, it was never about that. It is strange. I can't say exactly where that confidence came from, but I just felt as though I was still me and I would always still be me. And it didn't matter what I looked like on the outside, that my soul was unique to me and always would be something special however I looked on the outside yeah I mean I wonder if that inner sense of self-worth that self-esteem I wonder if that actually was possibly one of the reasons why you were so successful on your journey because I think for many people I've really thought long and hard about this so over a number of years that of course lifestyle nutrition you know and we're going to talk about that in the conversation about how much that can play a role but I'm really

starting to come to the conclusion that for many people losing excess weight and regaining their health is often a self-esteem issue it's often a self-worth issue and when people love themselves for really who they are they naturally make better choices I think yeah you're right I think it does come from that sense of of self but also what I worry about is when people only have weight loss as a goal, it can then lead to issues with the control over food. And I mean, that's something I guess I sort of touched on a little bit when in my writing is the sense of, I want people to embrace these more healthy habits and a more whole foods, plant-based approach, not just so they can lose weight. In fact, that would even be a side effect. It would be because of all the other things that it

could potentially do for you and how you can feel about yourself. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I'm really fascinated. How can it be that at 22, 23, you have a drive to lose weight that doesn't come from cosmetics. I've also heard you talk about your grandfather dying. I wonder if you would mind talking about that and what you learned from that. Yeah, so I was seven at the time. And actually, there's a couple of things that happened when I was seven. I've never talked about this before. My grandfather passed away. And obviously obviously that was a formative moment,

especially the devastation it caused my father and he already had mental health problems. But also I had sort of a near-death experience. I almost drowned when I was, I couldn't swim very well. I wasn't a strong swimmer. And I was in a swimming pool. I'd been looked after by one of the customers of my dad, because at the time he was functioning enough to work. And so they'd taken me off swimming and I couldn't swim properly. And I got stuck in the deep end. And I remember having this feeling as though my life was flashing before my eyes.

They talk about it in the movies, and you don't necessarily think that that's actually going to happen. But it happened to me, where my life from the point of birth to that point flashed before my eyes. And I remember laughing to myself and thinking, well, that didn't take too long. And I thought, well, I am only seven, so I can't expect it to have taken very long. But I felt this incredible peace. Even though I was effectively drowning, I felt quite peaceful. And it's really quite hard to articulate why that might have been, but I just felt that everything was going to be okay. And that I was part of a greater whole. And if I wasn't here anymore, I would still be somewhere

and I would still have an awareness of something. And I had all these thoughts in my head as I was drowning and somebody, the lifeguard pulled me out of the water in the end. Um, and I survived. I was fine. Um, but I guess that might have had something to do with it as well. Now that you're asking me the question, um, I, I suppose for me, it was, you asked about self identity and aesthetics and things like that. And yes, of course it's important to me to try and look my best, but I think part of the reason why I did have that feeling of confidence in myself was love, actually, just love. So I felt very loved by my mother, specifically, she was very nurturing and loving. And although we didn't have a traditional mother-daughter relationship, I genuinely felt as

though I was the center of her universe. And so that gave me that sense of importance to somebody, I think, looking back on it. And so that's a tremendous gift that she'd given me is that feeling of being loved and being worth something. And that's something I think probably has stayed with me all through my life. And I think that the research tells us actually that even if you have one person in your life growing up that can give you that sort of close relationship or that love feeling,

then your outcomes for long-term health, stability, happiness are far greater. And so even if you've had an abusive relative or where you haven't necessarily got on with a parent or there've been some issues, as long as you've you've got somebody one person then it's enough to give you that that start in life i mean i get teary hearing you say that it makes me want to when my kids are home from school in a couple of hours it just makes me want to give them a hug and look them in the eyes and tell them even more than i think i already do how much I love them how loved they are what it's really incredible um you know I'm thinking seven years old to be drowning and have a sense of peace with that do you feel you've ever been scared of death I was scared of not um I I have a memory memory of being scared that my mother didn't exist when I was about three or four.

Sort of realization that, oh, I'm relying on this human, this grown human for everything. What happens if she's not here? So there was that feeling I distinctly remember. But no, I don't think I ever necessarily remember feeling scared of dying as such. necessarily remember feeling scared of dying as such. But I do think that a fear of death is part of the reason why we have a lot of, I'd say, I mean, we go down a different route here entirely to what I was expecting, but I think that ICUs and intensive care units are tremendous places because we are able to come back from the brink of death. If you have an accident or something happens to you and the doctors can help fix you and you've got surgeons to help operate on you. But I think also this multi-million pound industry is also kind of built on the fear of death as well.

Because there are times in our life, especially if we have chronic diseases that we've lived with for a long time, that it's around the time that we might expect that our natural, physical life should end. But we keep holding on. We hold on so tightly because we're scared to not be in this body anymore. And what would that mean? And we would disappear and our significance would melt away. And I think that that is something that society as a whole might need to look more at is to think actually let's prioritize that feeling of self-worth coming from somewhere deeper and that legacy coming from the love that we give to other people and the contribution that we make to other people's lives. Which I guess I

know it's a fairly esoteric path that i'm going down but i think um fear of death is part of why we have so much um chronic disease management that doesn't necessarily serve us in the best way hey i completely agree i think a fear of really living. And I think 2020 has really, I think it's really brought that into a sharp focus. All kinds of decisions were made in 2020. And, you know, there's opinions on both sides in terms of what should have happened, There's opinions on both sides in terms of what should have happened, could things have been done differently. One thing though I will say, because I feel very strongly about this, is that at no point did I hear a conversation around quality of life.

It was always about preservation of life. It was always about preservation of life. And I don't want to be insensitive to anyone who may have lost people in 2020. But I think as a whole across society, I could talk about in the UK and the Western world per se, we really need to have a conversation around, we need to talk more about death and what does a life well-lived mean? I think we don't really talk about it much. I know, but we should, right? Yeah. I have to say, well, this is my mum head talking. So I've got two sons and they both

went through a phase where they were morbidly fascinated with the idea of death and asking me, how do I not die? They both wanted to know how to not die and how I could live forever and how they could live forever. And I found this really fascinating that they both went through that phase. And I thought to myself, well, I would like to imbue them with the idea that it wouldn't be a disaster if I died at some point when it was naturally the time for me to do so and that they don't need to be afraid of death. But they have this instinctive fear of it, I suspect, because this current life, this existence is all that they can perhaps comprehend, especially from the ways that we talk about life in society. But I really wanted them to understand

that for me, I mean, this is my personal belief that death is not an end. It is a kind of a new beginning. And that's something that I guess everybody feels very differently about because there's never any proof. You can never really say either way what happens after we die. But I do still believe that we are all intimately connected in life and in death. So actually, you're never really lost when you're gone because you're always part of, even if you're an atheist, which many people are, of know you there's no reason to suggest that you wouldn't be but the idea is to say we're all still intimately connected to each other and to the light to the world that we live in and to this planet and so we have those sort of collective communities and environments that we have a duty to care for and I think that that's something that that can

also connect us on a higher level, irrespective of what we believe happens to us after we're gone, is almost like that legacy of connection that we can keep regardless of our beliefs. Do you identify as someone who is spiritual? And if you do, how would you define spirituality? And if you do, how would you define spirituality? Well, I do identify as someone spiritual, but it's something I don't refer to too often because I think sometimes that can almost alienate some people. Because especially if you have a strong Christian faith or if you're a Muslim or if you have other kind of strong religious traditions,

then for you, sometimes spirituality is seen as a bit of this sort of esoteric woo-woo stuff that's not very concrete. And you actually, you know, you should believe in one path and that that's the path that we should go down. And equally being an atheist, I don't want to say to people, yes, everybody should be spiritual because there's no should about it. We're all very unique um but i suppose for me it's about connection it always has been about connection love and gratitude and if those three things um if we can feel those three things and implement them in our lives then i believe that that is a form of spirituality something that everybody can understand and implement practically i love what

you said there's no should about it and i've got got to say, Gemma, that's one of the things I really respect in your approach, whether it's when I've heard you speak before or whether it's in your new book. It's a very compassionate approach to people. You're not trying to uh, force people down a certain path against their will. It's more about sharing ideas and information that might resonate. Is that a fair sort of summary of how you approach things? Yes, I believe it is. Because, I mean, when it comes to, I mean, plant-based nutrition is one of my many passions, but it is only one of the things I'm interested in is what the book's about. Um, but for me, the book was not to make people eat a certain way. It's never been about that. And also I kind of understand, um, what it feels like

to be kind of skeptical about trying new things as well. And I, I, I never wanted it to be like I had to try and force people into trying to eat this way. It was more a case of just understanding that there are certain things that I wish I'd known. And if I had known earlier in my medical career, then it would have actually helped me to help more people. And that's where I come out with the book. So I wrote the book because I wanted to widen my circle of compassion so that I could hopefully help other people feel better, not just within my surgery. I've got nearly 3,000 patients, but also within the wider world. And then those ripples of compassion can then spread out further into their own communities and in their own families when they benefit and so on. So that's what it's all about. That's all it's ever been about really. But it's just one tool that I think people will really benefit from if they knew about it. Yeah. So when you went on your journey to get more energy and get more out of life, I believe that you tried a low carb diet. Yes. Well, I just, I hadn't done a huge

amount of research back then. But I just thought, well, it's in the magazines. And, you know, we learned at medical school, the importance of making sure that you didn't have micronutrient deficiencies and some of the things that could go wrong with the body if you were malnourished, for example. But we never sort of really touched um the tenets of a healthy diet and i think because i mean logically speaking most people know that fruits and vegetables are good for you and so you just kind of read through the magazines and think oh well carbs are bad i'll cut carbs that's what people do so you were junior doctor at the time oh yeah i was i was i literally just started work so i was 20 i was quite young literally just started work. So I was 20, I was quite young, actually.

I was a young doctor. So I was 22 at the time. So yeah, that's, that's what I tried. And it, it, it works for weight loss and I don't have anything against it. You know, if people want to do it and it works for them, that's great. But this is when you found you, you were losing weight easily? Well, I mean, for me, I don't know easily enough. Like I feel, I feel like you can lose weight pretty much in many different ways. You could starve yourself and lose weight, but it wouldn't feel easy. Low carb approaches can be helpful for some people. Whole food plant-based approaches can be helpful for other people. approaches can be helpful for other people. Yeah, so I did lose weight and it wasn't tremendously difficult. But I think what I began to realize over the years and after doing a bit more research

was that there are specific things in a low-carb approach that could be potentially detrimental to my longer-term health. And there are studies to show that prioritizing plant proteins over animal proteins have been associated with a higher healthy longevity. Um, and there's quite a few studies to show that. Um, and it's, yeah, so, so for me it was actually understanding, well, there's many ways to do it and there's no, I don't want to knock anybody doing it in a different way, but I felt that, um, after having done some research on the topic that actually whole foods plant-based approaches were more beneficial in the longer term

because it made it easier it made it easier to lose weight and still feel satiated because you've got this amazing fiber-rich diet and so you've got all of your gastric hormones that are that are in sync and they're telling you, I've had enough to eat, I'm full. And you don't have to think too much. I think part of the problem with people who go on diets and the dieting culture is that you're always having to think about food and eating and whether you've eaten too much and whether you shouldn't eat this thing and counting the calories and all of this. That's not helpful long-term. Whereas I think if you're just going to be focusing on foods that are healthy in abundance, those natural foods that are high

in fiber, high in micronutrients, high in antioxidants, then you're actually just feeling your body in the right way and feeling good about it. Yeah. So you change your way of eating, it's sort sort of working then you do your blood cholesterol panel and you get worried and you think oh wait a minute I've got more energy I'm able to move more and get more out of my life but I'm slightly concerned about these markers was that a standard lipid panel yeah just the ones you normally would go to any doctor and get um and yeah so I thought to myself at the time I didn't think there was anything I could do about standard lipid panel? Yeah, just the ones you normally would go to any doctor and get. And yeah, so I thought to myself, at the time, I didn't think there was anything I could do about it. You thought it was genetic because of your... Yes, because of my grandfather and, you know,

some other relatives. I just thought, well... And also I thought, well, heart disease is our biggest killer in the Western world and cancer is the second biggest and you've got to die of something and I'm doing my best. What more can I do? So what happened? So you're getting on, you're feeling better. And what led you from low carb to whole food plant-based? Because I've heard bits of that story before, and I think it's really, really interesting. Oh, so I mean, like anything, a journey is so much more interesting than the actual end point sometimes. But I think it started probably with my husband and my son separately for different reasons. So my husband

was marathon running and he was doing a lot of training. He kept on getting injured. And he looked at his technique and he looked at how much training he was doing doing and he was thinking, well, I've done everything I can. What else could I possibly do to stop myself from getting injured every time I try and go for a run? And he thought, well, why don't I try and emulate ultra runners? Because if they can run double marathons or triple marathons, what are they doing? If I can do that, then maybe I can run a marathon. So he started to look into books like Rich Rolls, Finding Ultra, and Brendan Brazier's Thrive. And gosh, what else do you look at? Scott Jurek, Born to Run. So he got all these books, he was sort of avidly reading them. And now sort of

looking at the corner of my eye thinking, what are you reading? And he said, I'm going to give this whole food plant-based thing a try. And I oh what's that then what does that mean he said well it means to prioritize you know fruits and vegetables and whole grains and and pulses nuts and seeds herbs and spices I was like oh well doesn't sound like you can eat very much he said no you can you can make burritos and porridge and pancakes and curry and and you know any kind of world cuisine that you like, you can make. There's all these recipes. I said, oh, okay, well, our friends aren't going to ever invite us over again.

You can't, you know, do this for too long. But he did it and he did really well. He ran his next marathon an hour and 10 minutes faster. An hour and 10 minutes faster. I mean, I don't even know what time, I mean, that's got to be like 25% off your time or something. I know, I know. Something ridiculous. It was crazy. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for

something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, something that is really important, especially at this time of year. It also contains prebiotics and digestive enzymes that help support your gut health. All of this goodness comes in one convenient daily serving that makes it really easy to fit into your life. No matter how busy you feel, it's also really, really tasty. The scientific team behind AG1 includes experts from a broad range of fields,

including longevity, preventive medicine, genetics, and biochemistry. I talk to them regularly, and I'm really impressed with their commitment to making a top quality product. Until the end of January, AG1 are giving a limited time offer. Usually, they offer my listeners a one-year supply of vitamin D and K K2 and five free travel packs with their first order. But until the end of January, they are doubling the five free travel packs to 10. And these packs are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more.

And so he got my attention and I thought, I felt a bit a bit like oh i should probably know why this is helping him because i'm a doctor and people always ask me oh you're a doctor you should know so the answer is everything you should know everything oh it's hard to know everything but um so i started to look at some of the research i understood then that actually having a general sort of fiber rich antioxidantrich diet would improve your recovery time, certainly. And that seemed to be one of the main keys to his athletic endeavors, is that he could recover from exercise more quickly, and then he was able to train more frequently, and so on. So that then started me on a journey towards understanding it all a little bit more. I'd already looked into the environmental science and I'd already began to understand the effect that humans were having on the environment through our food choices.

And that's something that bothered me, but it didn't bother me enough at that time to take action. I just felt like, oh, it seems a bit too pious. It just seems too much hard work. I get it, but it's not for me. But then when Richard had began this journey, I thought, well, let me look into it. And so that's when I really sort of did more of a deep dive into nutrition and the different aspects of nutrition

and some of the incredible advantages of having this pattern of eating. But obviously there are pros and cons to everything. But for me, it seemed to make so much sense when you could improve the symptoms of chronic heart disease, where all these different guidelines are telling us actually that more plant foods, more whole foods is good for us, but it's not something that necessarily infiltrates not only medicine, but the general public. The World Cancer Research Fund tells us that fruits, vegetables, legumes, and whole grains are the cornerstones of a cancer-preventing diet. And the American College

of Cardiology tells us that a plant-based diet is one of the number one things you can do to prevent heart disease, our biggest killer. And that's based on many, many years of studies. And then you've got the American College of Clinical Endocrinologists that tells us that a plant-based approach can be incredibly useful and one of the primary things you can do to prevent type 2 diabetes and so it's sort of like a penny dropped in my head and I just thought why don't people know this information um you weren't eating that way at the time you were just researching I was just researching so you'd seen the amazing improvement in your husband's you're like okay had you been observing what he was eating had had you know had you been involved with some of that like oh what are you eating I'm going to try a bit of that you know I'd been

watching carefully because you know with the family and stuff it became if I if I just sort of jumped in both feet then it would have meant changing everything that was cooking and i felt i wasn't ready yeah i didn't feel emotionally ready for that so i was just watching observing reading doing some of you know the research around sort of behind the scenes and then i just sort of decided to take the plunge and just secretly give it a go because i'd read enough by then to think, okay, I think this could make a difference to my own cholesterol actually. And I didn't want to lose face. It's difficult when you kind of, it's great to enlist the support of family and friends. And I would always suggest

people do that. But at the same time for me, it felt a bit like, I really don't want it to go wrong. I don't want to make a big announcement and then feel like I've not managed to do the thing I had hoped to do. So I'm just going to slowly start to cook more plant-based, make more plant-based meals, sort of make these gradual switches. And I didn't tell anyone. And then after about a month or so, I said to Richard, I said, I've actually, I've gone completely plant-based over the last month. Did you notice? He's like, no. Well, I have and I'm feeling good he said oh that's that's cool um and anyway I got my lipid panels checked again and I was delighted

to see that I was finally in the normal range many years later two kids later I was exercising quite a lot less as well I was still exercising moving my body but a lot less than I was when I was um in my 20s And I've managed to bring everything back to normal after all that time. And we use these personal stories to help us motivate ourselves. But it wasn't just about that. Obviously, there was a lot of research as well. But then I feel like the magic happened as well in my clinical practice when I started to gradually suggest some changes with my patients if they were open to it or for something that they felt interested in. And then that's really

where I began to see, wow, this has so many applications that people don't necessarily know about. So I've had patients that have dramatically improved their Crohn's disease and their eczema and irritable bowel syndrome and one gentleman reversed his very low grade prostate cancer and another many people have have improved or completely reversed their hypertension type 2 diabetes and hormonal health. Yeah there's a really nice section in the book on hormonal health. Yeah, there's a really nice section in the book on hormonal health. And a lot of these, there's so many case studies in the book that you share. Now, there will be, I'm sure, some people listening to this who prefer a low-carb approach than a whole food plant-based approach. And I want to get into some definitions at some point, because I think some of these terms can be quite useful. And could it be that some patients,

let's say you mentioned eczema, for example, and you've written a nice section on eczema in the book, and dairy is a common trigger for many people with eczema. So does it depend on where you're at? So if you're coming from a place where you're having the standard Western diet with lots of processed foods, you would help people put more plants in there or, I don't know, go vegan potentially? What are these definitions? That's got the definitions, right? What does whole food plant-based mean? Okay, so I would never tell my patients they have to go vegan. I would never tell my patients they have to go vegan because that's actually,

veganism is by definition, it's a lifestyle where you would minimize harm to animals. And so that is, when you're looking at veganism as a way of eating, then it's almost defined by what you're not putting on your plate rather than what you are. So you are excluding all animal products wherever you can. And not just on your plate, but of all animal products wherever you can. And not just on your plate, but of course, wherever else you can in your life. So that's quite different from emphasizing a whole foods plant-based approach. And also plant-based diets, it can mean a huge array of things. Someone can be eating pretty much any kind of dietary style and say that it was predominantly plant-based if they were eating mostly fruits or vegetables or whole grains or legumes or you know or even to be honest ultra processed foods because sometimes um you get

these the junk food vegan movement where the ethics and the environmental concerns are paramount and so for them you know having vegan donuts and and vegan um snacks and vegan biscuits and vegan chips and crisps and all these things is just a simple swap for them. So that hasn't really changed a great deal. And that wouldn't be defined as a whole food plant-based approach and it wouldn't be optimal for our health. That's what's the interesting thing actually about veganism per se, is that it seems to draw a lot of different kinds of people. And it's almost like, um, it brings a lot of emotion as well into the food choices, which I think is a hard thing. And I never really liked the idea of getting into diet wars or, you know, people must eat a certain way.

Um, because I think there's a lot of emotion tied to food anyway. Um, but I think having a, having a vegan lifestyle, it can be a hugely emotional choice and an identity because what you're doing is you're making a lifestyle choice that is the most compassionate that it could be if you're doing it for animal welfare purposes. And so for you, having that animal product would be a tantamount, it be completely sort of crazy it would be an idea of almost like eating i don't know cardboard or something because it's so far away from where you see yourself in terms of your choices um but that's quite different from somebody who perhaps is an environmentalist and maybe they're understanding that there is a link between

what we put on our plate and the destruction of the planet and the fact that we're in the midst of the sixth mass extinction event at the moment caused by humans, the Anthropocene. That's what we're in. And it's caused by human choices. So if you're an environmentalist and you recognize that, then for you, it may be that you become flexitarian and you would minimize your animal products, especially meat and dairy because of how they're produced. But you wouldn't mind eating, I guess, mussels or sustainably sourced salmon or I don't know, whatever it might be. And again, that's quite different. But some people go whole food plant-based purely for health purposes.

And then they find out that actually they're really keen on the environmental ideas or the ethical ideas, and then it shifts and their motivation shifts again. So it is important to separate the three. I think when you're talking only about health, having a whole foods plant-based approach is inherently extremely healthy, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to exclude every single animal product from your plate. There's no evidence to suggest that you would have to do that for optimal health. Do you think there's confusion? Because I think these terms can be confusing for people. So whole food plant-based to me, from what you're describing, is eat a lot of plants. So I would say yes, plant-based basically means eat as many plants as you can. I think if you're looking at sort of specific definitions and numbers,

when most people describe a whole foods plant-based diet, they do mean 100% whole foods plant-based usually. So if it's described in the literature or if you hear doctors talking about that, that's generally what they mean. A plant-based diet is any kind of dietary pattern that is predominantly plants. In terms of specific numbers, it's really hard to be specific because nothing I think in nutrition can ever be that well-known because everybody's got different stress levels. Everybody's got different microbiomes. Everybody's got different sleep patterns. So it's quite hard to say this is exactly what percentage of these things that you need. I would say that looking at observational data, large populations of people over time, randomized control trials, and looking at the blue zones, for example, that are talked about a lot in the wellness space. And for those of your listeners that don't know, they essentially refer to the

small pockets of the world with their greatest healthy longevity. Most people sort of living up to or around the age of about 100, how do they do it? There's a lot to it, but in terms of what's on their plate, it's 90, 95% plant-based. Or in the case of the Adventists there's quite a few of them that were 100% plant-based. So yes I think overall we could say that the vast majority plants is definitely based on the research I've done optimal but I can't say that you have to do 100% from the data that we have. Yeah I think that's really honest and that's really clear. I actually agree that, you know, I think one of the things that until recently, almost everyone, no matter what camp you were from, agreed on was that more plants, more colours

is generally going to be a good thing more phytonutrients more antioxidants more fiber there obviously has been a carnivore movement over the past few years and a lot of people are sharing some pretty impressive uh transformations when going carnivore it's really really interesting. Pain, autoimmune stuff, eczema. And I guess we can come to that and what we both might think of that. But it's really interesting. So what I was trying to get at before is if you're starting off with a standard Western diet with lots of, I don't know, processed meats, processed foods. And let's say you go whole food plant-based, like you might be helping your patients too.

You're going to be eliminating certain things that could be driving the eczema or the inflammatory bowel disease potentially. But someone listening to this might also argue, well, I can also go put them on a low carb diet that is eliminating a lot of those highly processed foods and also get good results. So do we know for sure it is the whole food plant-based or could it be the elimination of all the kind of highly processed junk and also the elimination of things like dairy sometimes which can be pro-inflammatory and can cause skin problems and I'm just trying to play devil's advocate only because I know this will come up and people will be asking this question and it's not to catch anyone out at

all because I've got patients who are thriving on plant-based paleo diets, or what they call a plant-based paleo diet. And I've got patients who are thriving on vegan diets. So I actually don't, from a health perspective, I don't have a preference per se. But do you see what I'm getting at? Yeah, I do. And I think I love seeing people improve their health, however they do it. I love seeing people improve their health however they do it. I think that when, interestingly about the carnivore movement, yeah, I think my perspective on that is that what they're doing is that they're essentially doing an extreme exclusion diet. So it may be then that because of that, they are naturally avoiding the things that may begin to aggravate their gut

health. And we live in a modern world where there's a lot of stresses to the gut. We know now more than ever that microbial health and our microbiomes is hugely important. Okay. And they're as individual and unique as our fingerprints. And this research is still really in its infancy. But what we can see is that there are certain things that disrupt our gut microbes. Obvious ones would include alcohol, okay? Because years ago, we might have used alcohol to sterilize surgical equipment. You sterilize your gut bugs at the same time if you're drinking a lot of alcohol. Overuse of antibiotics. Antibiotics are there

to kill bugs. And so naturally, they will kill the bugs in your gut. Many people have taken lots of courses of antibiotics over the course of a lifetime. And sometimes that would be for really important reasons. But still, the gut bugs are affected by that. Pesticides as well. Pesticides are in fact designed to kill bugs. That's how they work. We can only assume then that when we're eating foods that contain pesticides, they may have a detrimental effect on the bugs that reside within us. So when we've got all these different things, and it's not just even that, if you're looking at even like processed meats, ultra processed foods, they are detrimental to our microbiome. In fact,

we get most of our antibiotics through the meat that we eat because the meat that we eat contains antibiotics to prevent infection and in the US to also help them with growth. Not here, thankfully. I think it's worse, much worse in the US, I think. Yeah, but still here, the biggest exposure that we have on our plate to antibiotics is through the meat that we consume. And that also can affect our microbiome. Emulsifiers that are in foods. So many processed foods contain emulsifiers, which are bad for our gut bugs. Urban environments are bad for our gut bugs. Stress. Stress is bad for our gut bugs. The fact that we don't get enough sleep, they've got their own

circadian rhythm. You've spoken so much about this, but all of these things have an impact on our immune system and our gut bugs and that interplay between the two and the gut lining. When you're eating more plant food, sometimes that can aggravate those things if there's already a weakness there. But it's a bit like going to the gym. Now, I'm not a gym goer. Unfortunately, I've never had a gym membership, but I know people that go to the gym and what they do at the gym. You've heard about this as a concept. I've heard about the gym. Yeah, exactly. I know people that go. It's an amazing place, it sounds like. Anyway, they lift weights, right? People lift weights at the gym, I guess,

a lot of the time. And they're not going to start with the heaviest weight. They're not going to go to the gym and literally go to the bench and pick the heaviest weight and think, I can't lift it. I have to just give up on my efforts to maintain my muscle mass. No, they'll go and they'll start gradually and they'll keep going along and they'll keep working away at it until they can lift those heavy weights. I see being able to enjoy more plant foods in our diet is a bit like that, but it's like heavy weights for your gut because we know that plant foods are really beneficial for our gut microbes and also for our overall health and well-being. When the fiber-rich foods go into our body, we're not really digesting them.

It's the gut bugs that digest them. We're feeding our gut bugs with those prebiotic fibers and that is the optimal fuel that they have and so if we're completely avoiding that it's quite a challenge to then create a healthy microbial environment for the for the long term yeah so i see this as more of an investment in long-term health if you can get your gut health right and tolerate these high fiber foods yeah i think it's a really nice analogy and neither one of us want to invalidate a patient's experience at all and i know some patients who have gone carnivore and feel incredible but i asked him back to this recently on the podcast what he would say to someone who is currently eating carnivore and feeling fantastic. And, you know, Tim gave a really magnanimous answer about, look,

I, you know, basically I get you feeling better at the moment, but it's, it's kind of like, it's the, it can often be the right diet at the right time, you know, and I think I've written about this before, I say sort of the diet you might want to consume and thrive on may change during your life. There may be one diet that works for where you are currently right now. That may move you from A to B. And then as you're at B, and then because you're feeling better, you can start reducing stress, sleeping better. It's like, well, your microbiome is going to respond. And maybe then you can actually start to tolerate a few things that you couldn't tolerate before. So it isn't like, oh, I can't, that food doesn't agree with me. It's like, well,

maybe it doesn't agree with you at this current moment in time because of all these factors. And with your health, it's like the low FODMAP diet for some patients. IBS, that was never meant to be a long-term intervention. Exactly. So iris or bowel syndrome, you exclude these foods. Some people feel fantastic and want to stay on it forever. But most experts will say, this is not a long-term, this is a short-term intervention,

usually under the guidance of a dietician or a nutrition professional to help you. But the goal would be to kind of in a holistic way, address everything so that you can start to reintroduce things. And you often can actually, you know, once you start to look at it beyond just nutrition, but once you look about everything, you know, and I guess we're dancing around it because we're both, I think we're both pretty respectful to other people and their experiences. I never want to to other people and their experiences. I never want to put other people's experiences down because that's not my experience. And I

would probably feel the same as them if I'd grown up in their shoes and if I'd had the same experiences that they'd had and the same problems that they've experienced. So yes, I would never do that to anybody. But I just have to present what I see as the main evidence for human health and planetary health. And if people want to take it, that's fantastic. And they can try it and see how they feel. So if we go into the book, The Plant Power Doctor, a simple prescription for a healthier you. Okay. I mean, I've got it in front of me, Gemma, first of all.

How does it feel? Oh, it feels fantastic. It really does. And in fact, yours is the first signed copy because I haven't been able to sign any of the copies. I think maybe COVID restrictions. Oh, I feel very, very privileged. Oh, I read your lovely message. Yeah, it feels good. What are you proudest of about this book? What I'm proudest of is the ability to get people the message in their hands that they have more power over their health than they realized before. I think for so

many people, their interactions with the medical community as a whole can sometimes leave them feeling disempowered. And especially if they've got chronic illnesses or autoimmune illnesses, they often feel like they're out of control. Cancer as well. It's very challenging for patients because you kind of suddenly go on this roller coaster of ill health and instructions from doctors about what you should be doing and the treatment regimens that you'll be going on. And it's necessary, but at the same time, it's quite disempowering. And what I would love is for people to be able to pick up this book and think, you know what, maybe I'll try this out and maybe I'll feel better. And maybe I can bring my blood sugars

down and reduce my diabetes medications. And maybe I can reduce my vagina pain and walk my daughter down the aisle. And maybe I can reduce the horrendous joint pains that I'm experiencing every morning when I wake up. That's worth doing it for. And that's something that I'm so passionate about because I've seen it. I've seen it in real life. I've seen it for my patients. And I would love for other people to feel that and see that. So what the book does is it basically lays out some of the science, but it also includes some of the patient stories to make it more real, to make it more understandable from a personal level. And there in fact, I mean, I use nearly 600 references in the book, but because to make it more accessible, they're not

all in the book. I'm going to lay them out on my website sentence by sentence. So people can see exactly which references are which sentence. So if they want to dive into the science, they can, but actually the book itself is very friendly. It's got different colours for different sections, watercolour paintings, colour photographs. It's there to invite you to try something new and to feel better. Yeah. No, it is lovely. It's really well written. I think people are really into learning more about nutrition and what various things do and how they interact with various parts of the body. There is a lot in there and you can really see that there's been thought as to how do you deliver this. I love your acronym GLOVES. Thank you. this i love your acronym gloves thank you it's really great um i wonder if you could explain what it is how you came up with it and who is it for so what it is it's that it stands for the it's an acronym to help us understand some of the most important things that will help us stay healthy in life. And it's a loose tool to remind us about what matters. And the gloves stands for gratitude, love, O for organic, which we can

come back to, V for vegetables, E for exercise and S for sleep. And it's just basically thinking, well, you know, let's get the gloves on, get to work. It's a way of understanding that there's work to be done. And, you know, we do sometimes have to really prioritize ourselves if we're going to start on that journey towards a better place in terms of our health. But it puts gratitude and love at the very top of that list. And I don't mean just thinking positive or trying to turn everything in your life around to being amazing when it doesn't feel amazing. That's not what gratitude means. But I think that that would be one of the central tenets to starting to feel good. I think for me, gratitude means to start noticing. Noticing not only the present moment and what you're doing, perhaps like a mindfulness practice, but also just noticing emotions as they pass by, feeling grateful for the fact that you can feel something,

feeling grateful for the fact that you have thoughts that pass by without judging them too much, without trying to force yourself to think positive, just noticing when these things can come up for you and then being aware of them and then focusing on compassion focusing on compassion for yourself and other people um focusing less on judgment of yourself and other people that is the heart of gratitude for me and that is also the heart of healing so that's why i put it at the top yeah basically. Yeah, it's wonderful to hear that. And there's a lot of science behind it, isn't there, in terms of what it does to our biology?

There is. It's really important for our biology and our hormones, our immune system, our IgG levels go up, our cortisol levels go down. So it helps us as much as it helps other people, which I think is just wonderful. But it's probably better not to focus on how much it's helping you. But it does, it really does help. And L for love. Again, I know it sounds corny. It does. And I know people will probably be rolling their eyes, but love is medicine. Okay. will probably be rolling their eyes but love is medicine okay it is it is the ultimate expression of wanting to care for others but also wanting to care for yourself bringing more love into your

life through your interactions with other people through your connections with other people but also for yourself you know really really loving yourself in a way that perhaps you hadn't necessarily thought possible before. How can people love themselves more? And this sort of relates a little bit to the earlier part of our conversation where you embarked on this journey with your health that resulted in you losing weight, but the goal was energy. The goal was to feel better. The goal was to get more out of your life. And you had that inner self-esteem that I am more than my physical appearance. I am more than the number on the scales, right? So you were able to love yourself, but I'm guessing that you see a lot of patients who don't love themselves. And what's your process to sort of get them, you know, along that path and to start loving themselves? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my

very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health, and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life,

and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress,

make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal. And as with most things it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In it you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every

evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app.

It's really a difficult thing to approach because clearly on the basis of a 10-minute consultation with someone, you just have to sort of plant seeds and see if they grow and if they're there at the right time for them in their life. And if you can provide the seed, then maybe they can water it, maybe they can give it some sunshine, but you can't be in control of how much of it they can take in at that time. But I mean, the way I see it is that quite often the events of our lives are, they shape our thoughts and feelings. Okay. So something bad has happened or something that we think of as bad has happened to us in our lives. And, you know, our brains remember it, it becomes a memory and then that becomes a thought process and that shapes how we see the world. And then say this bad thing happened um which gives us an

emotion of a negative emotion that's stored in our body and then that becomes how we feel in the world and those thoughts and feelings then become our identity and they become um what we think of the world itself around us and how we think about other people and so probably one of the best ways to shake that up is gratitude and love um is the sense of thinking i guess not not thinking of yourself as a victim actually because bad things terrible things can happen to people but i think part of the problem is if you think of yourself as being a victim, then it really makes you feel quite small. And when you're feeling small, it makes you feel less generous as well towards other people.

Whereas if you can empower yourself to thinking, I wasn't in control of what that person did to me, I never, you know, that's something that I could not help. But if I can lift my body out of a memory of that by doing things that can engage my par and those are quite helpful because you i mean psychotherapy is fantastic and people can spend years in psychotherapy and it's one of many great tools but sometimes some traumas you can't think yourself out of you can't think yourself out of suicidal thoughts either sometimes because they're so entrenched in your body, your physicality. So there's lots of different things, but moving your body, creating a mindfulness practice, even just being outside, just breathing outside. All of these things are just little tools and then you can build them up and build them up to then become new thoughts, new emotions, and then new identities. And that can take time or it can happen in an instant. It could be an epiphany moment that suddenly shifts everything that you ever knew. Yeah, it's so simple but so

profound. And it's kind of like what you said before, when you're ready, I mean, you get it when you get it, right? You can't force someone else to get something or to see the world the way you see it. We're all on our own path, doing our thing. We want to share love. We want to share information. We want to share inspiration. What you said about movement really, really strikes a chord with me, Movement really, really strikes a chord with me, Gemma, because movement has been reduced down for so long to being about calories. Movement is so much more than that. Movement is about your brain, your thoughts, the way you feel about yourself, your hormones, your endorphins. Movement is essential to be an active, thriving human. Movement is what your body needs. And actually, there are lots of therapies which actually help

people process trauma through movement, through putting your body in positions. It's not useful. And if people find that far-fetched, just think about your own self wherever you are right now if you're on a walk if you're on a run just stand up a little bit straighter and oh you know I even as I do that making me do this now yeah I'm getting away from the mic it's getting I'm gonna move the mic and annoy Gareth it's all in video shots at the moment it's time for a stretch yeah but you feel different right you feel more confident yeah. And I think we undervalue movement, posture, these things. So I really love that. So that's G, that's L. Yes. Now O is for organic. Now, this is something that can be quite contentious.

And... Hey, anything in nutrition is contentious. I know. Anything. Anything and everything. So for me, I suppose this is great because I get the chance to really share my thoughts in detail. So when I've included O for organic in my mnemonic, what I really want people to understand is the importance of regenerative agriculture for not only for now, but for the future of humanity and the planet. So fruits and vegetables are good

for us. We know that. And all of the studies that we look at to show how beneficial more portions of fruits and vegetables are for us come from people that have eaten conventionally grown produce so what i would say is if you don't have the budget or the bandwidth to think about where your food is coming from it doesn doesn't matter. Just try to incorporate more fruits and vegetables and wherever you can. I don't think organic is as an important message as regenerative agriculture, because that's not always organic. But what it does is it changes our entire food system. Now, this is something that an individual person who's listening to this podcast can't really change. But I think it's something important for everybody to know about so that we can begin to change food policy as a whole. Because the way that we farm food right now, consumers have absolutely no say or even awareness of where their food is coming

from. And the way that we farm, don't get me wrong, I believe that farmers are agricultural superheroes. It is incredibly difficult to grow food. Anyone that's tried to have a vegetable patch knows how challenging it is. And so to be able to grow food for humans is one of the greatest things that anybody can do. And I'm really grateful for our farmers to do that. But I think that conventional agriculture and the way that our food system is currently does not serve us and it does not serve our planet. And that has to change. And it involves essentially going back to minimizing our use of pesticides and tillage in the way that we make food. So normally, when you've got large crops that are all the same,

there's a temptation to overuse pesticides, much, there's a temptation to overuse pesticides, much as there's a temptation to overuse antibiotics in the food chain, in order to try and make sure that you're really optimizing those crops. But the problem is as well, when you till, when you put the till through the soil, what you're doing is you're really disrupting the earthworms and the mycorrhizae. The mycorrhizae, they are fungal networks in the soil and they're really important for maintaining water in the soil and allowing humus to really stay there and not get washed away. And so the conventional way of farming, our top soils are gradually disappearing. And so we're at the point where we're not necessarily even getting the same

amount of nutrients from our food that we would have got before. And so this is something that is highly important for humans over the next 50 to 60 years, but also well, all the species on this planet, because the loss of biodiversity is crippling to our planet. And that's something that traditional agricultural methods, I say traditional, And that's something that traditional agricultural methods, I say traditional, modern agricultural methods are really contributing to. So not necessarily organic, because that's something that is not always accessible to people and it's not always regenerative. But just trying to become aware of where the food is coming from and what that food can give you is really, I think, important on a policy level. Because so much choice is taken away from us.

That's another thing about lifestyle change. We think it's free choice whether we have a processed hamburger or whether we choose a salad. It's not free choice, especially for people who are on the bread line because fast food is cheaper than healthy food and you're being constantly surrounded by it and you may not be able to even get to a place where you can buy those fresh foods easily. So it's a little bit of, it's a real nightmare for some people to even begin to think about healthy choices like that. But we have to start somewhere. So I think it's really important that we change the food system as it stands. Yeah, I mean, I'm so delighted to hear you talk about that. And with such passion, you clearly care so much about this. I mean, there's so much in what you just said.

This notion of personal responsibility is such a loaded word, actually. I mean, just before you came, I was on BBC Radio 4 talking about the government's obesity strategy. And I was on, you know, the presenter was there, there was a dietician on with me. And, you know, I tried to explain how this isn't quite as simple a matter. Helping the country lose weight for their health is challenging. It can be done, but we can't be shaming people. We can't be making people feel worse about themselves. It's not going to help in the long term. And I mentioned there's so many other factors to consider apart from trying to make people feel that they've got to run a marathon every weekend and join that gym and do it for the NHS.

I'm like, look, there's just so much more to this. Stress plays a role. Sleep plays a role. How you feel about yourself plays a role. And the journalist came back to me and said, you know, yeah, but, you know, we've got to take personal responsibility, don't we? And I get that she was doing her job and, you know, trying to have that conversation. But I wouldn't say I went on a rant as much, but I certainly felt very passionate about saying, you know, it's all right for some of us to say personal responsibility, but like you, I've worked in some very deprived areas and it's just not as simple as it's made out to be. You know, if you live in a food desert where all you've got around you are

fast food restaurants and all, you know, they've got £1.50, eat as much as you like. You know, if you're a family of four and you're on benefits, it's like, that's quite appealing. It doesn't mean you don't care about the NHS. It doesn't mean you don't care about your health. I'd say it's not even just appealing. It's logical. It's logical. When you've got a budget that will not allow you to be able to go and get two buses to go to a place where you can buy fresh fruits and vegetables or whatever it is, it's a logical choice because you have to feed your family. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. So I think gloves is great.

Well, you know the rest. I mean, V is vegetables and that includes fruits too and exercise and sleep. And we could talk for ages about each of those topics as well. and exercise and sleep. And we could talk for ages about each of those topics as well. But yeah, I think it's just an understanding that there are things that we can do in our everyday lives that don't have to cost a fortune and that could change everything. Yeah. If only we knew about them. Yeah. Well, you're doing a great job with your Instagram, with your website, with the book.

One thing I did want to talk about is hormones and why eating more plants might be beneficial for people i guess i'm thinking about women with hormonal issues but i guess you know let's not exclude men from the conversation they're important for men too yeah absolutely and i think yeah i mean as i said that there is a chapter in the book on this and it's also for men too because there are things things in our environment and in our diet and in our lifestyles that affect men's hormones exactly the same as they would affect female hormones as well. But it can make a huge difference for things like period pains, fibroids, endometriosis, menopausal symptoms. And why is that? Well, I think a lot of the time it can come down to the extra

beneficial fiber that you're eating, because what you're doing there is you are avoiding constipation. It's an important thing. When we get constipated, it's quite an easy way for our bodies to recycle unwanted hormones. And so when we are trying to poop out the extra estrogen that we've got in our bodies, but we're constipated, then that estrogen just gets reabsorbed through the gut lining. And then that can be a problem. So you're essentially exposing yourself to higher levels of estrogen. Same with, I guess, holding excess weight as well, because fat cells are not just inert, they are little hormone factories as well. And so when you

are reducing the size of those hormone factories, you're also reducing the amount of excess hormones that you're being exposed to. So having a more whole foods plant-based approach is useful because what you're doing is you're increasing the fiber, you're avoiding constipation, you are increasing the amount of micronutrients, antioxidants, which is very helpful. But say for things like period pains, for example, what happens with your periods is why they're painful is through the release of prostaglandins in the womb lining, which are important because they help to contract the womb as you're bleeding. And that's part of the natural physiological process but when you have a diet that's very high in omega-6s, oily processed foods and animal products

you're actually taking in foods that will increase those prostaglandin levels in the womb lining and therefore potentially also make your periods either heavier and or more painful. So it sounds like a strange thing because people don't tend to talk about it too much but actually having a more whole foods or a plant-based approach is really beneficial for improving period discomfort and part of that is also related to sex hormone binding globulin shbg it's like um what's so useful about it is it helps you to be able to regulate your hormonal exposure again it's another way you to be able to regulate your hormonal exposure. Again, it's another way of regulating that hormone exposure in your body. And when you have a

more whole foods plant-based approach, you're actually increasing the amount of SHBG that you have, thereby allowing you to be a little bit more in control of that hormonal regulation. Whereas women who tend to be either overweight or suffer from polycystic ovaries, they have less of the SHBG, which means that they have less control over the expression of these hormones in their bodies. Hence, some of the problems that they have around either less frequent or heavier bleeds or the acne and things like that. So they're all connected. Phthalates as well, environmental plastics exposures they they do according to some of the studies have an impact on our own hormonal balance and so when we limit our environmental plastics exposures we may also be then improving the ability of our bodies to balance our natural hormones so um things like having your water um that's not in

a plastic bottle maybe or um not microwaving your food in plastic uh little things like that could actually potentially make a difference with regard to the amount of hormones that you yourself are being exposed to and producing in your body yeah brilliant, brilliant. A very, very thorough summary. There's so much more in the book. There's loads, loads more. I mean, Gemma, look, as we sort of draw this conversation to a close, I think about you as someone who I respect a lot. I like the way you deliver your messages more than anything else, frankly. It doesn't mean I don't like what you said. I like that as well, but it's more, I just, I value in people more, I've realized over the last years, I value kindness and compassion more than anything. I really respect people who

deliver their message consistently in a certain way. I think it's what the world needs more of. consistently, in a certain way. I think it's what the world needs more of. As you know, the podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. So what I'd love to do at the end is for the listeners, for the viewers, I wonder if you would mind sharing some of your very top tips, things that people can think about right now, start applying into their lives so they can improve the way they feel and live more. This is something I do every morning. I think of my top three values before I, it doesn't take a moment. You just, I literally just repeat them in my head as I'm getting out of bed. And it allows me the opportunity to remember what's important to me, not only that day, but for my lifetime.

And the values that hold the most importance don't have to be the same. They don't have to be static. So, but they have to be true to you. And then that can also help you change your behavior in ways you didn't know before and make little shifts in your lifestyle. So for me, so I've never shared this before either, but for me, those three top values are love, gratitude and focus. Because for me, I wanted to, it's very easy to procrastinate and to sort of not get things done. But if you want to share a message of importance, then you have to actually take action. So for me, that was important, something I really, family, so many different words that could be

different for every person. But those top three values, if you wake up in the morning and you remember those three things before you start your day, it can also have a tremendous impact on what you decide to do that day. So that number one and I know I can see that you're thinking about your three um would you be comfortable to share what you're thinking about right now yeah um I've sort of done a few value exercises over the summer and I'm I keep changing them all the time so it's something I'm sort of spending a lot of time with at the moment but I think the three that come to mind straight away are love integrity and family um which i think is very powerful pretty much sums up the most important things to me at the moment

yeah so that's a that's lovely and that that uh that can be really powerful um for anyone to do because it's something that most people don't really think about so the values exercise is great um but in terms of uh the i guess plant power message um i would say be kind to yourself um and just notice the things in your life that you would like um different and think about the kind of um person that you that you want to be and so when you when you're focusing on those things and you're focusing on self-compassion, it's a really good tool for creating change in a healthy way. Simple swaps. So practical things. Simple swaps is a great way to start. So say you love spaghetti bolognese, then you just want to look up a really delicious, flavorful lentil bolognese recipe. Say you love, I don't know, let's think like a chili con carne, then you look

up an amazing three bean chili recipe. And after just a few interesting new recipes that you've got together, then you pretty much change your entire repertoire without realizing it. I think most of us get into sort of food ruts a little bit and we get into the things that we're used to cooking, especially with families. And so it's nice to go on a bit of an adventure and just think, OK, what are my favorite food swaps and what recipes can I learn this week? So great to have simple swaps. And gosh, I think of a third one. And, gosh, I think of a third one. I think probably just using your freezer if you've got one. Helping you to prepare more easily for the rest of the week is great. So you could do a bit of food prep on the weekend, bung it in the freezer.

You don't have to think too much during the week about what you're doing. Those are great ways of just kind of simply bringing in more plant power steps. And it can start with one meal a week, just feel good about it and think, I really enjoyed that and that was delicious. And what else can I try? You know, so just making it fun, making it enjoyable. Yeah, I love it. And you've got all kinds of tasty recipes in the book as well.

A lot of people are having their stomachs grumbling at the moment and their mouths watering. Gemma, I think you're doing incredible work. Thank you for coming to the studio today. Lovely to see you. Thank you for the signed book. And I hope we get to do this again at some point in the future. I hope so too, Rongan. I've loved it so much. Thank you. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, do have a think about one thing you can take away and start to apply into your own life. And please do take a moment to share this episode with your friends and family. Doing so, especially if you send them a personal note at the same time,

is something that has benefits for you both. It's going to make your friend feel good. It's also going to make you feel happier because you've done something kind for someone else. It really is a win-win all round. To see more information about Gemma and links to her books, website, and social channels, you can head to the show notes page on my website. And if you're interested in my own view on nutrition, you can check out either my first book, The Four Pillar Plan, or my fourth book,

which only came out a month ago called Feel Great, Lose Weight. They are both available in paperback, ebook, and as an audio book, which I am narrating. Now, before we finish today, can I ask you a question? Have you signed up for Friday

5 yet? It's my brand new weekly newsletter that contains five short doses of positivity. It could be a practical tip for your health to try out, a book or article that I found inspiring, a quote that's caused me to stop and reflect. Basically anything that I feel would be helpful for you. It started at the turn of the year and feedback has been so incredible so far. If you like my podcast and like what I stand for, I think you are really going to enjoy it. It is not spam.

It aims to bring you value. So if you're interested in signing up, you can do so at drchastity.com forward slash Friday five. By signing up, I'll also send you my sleep masterclass video series. A big thank you to my wife, Vedanta Chastity for producing this week's podcast and to Richard Hughes for audio engineering. Have a wonderful week. Make sure you have pressed subscribe and I'll be back in one week's time with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the architects of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it.

Because when you feel better, you live more.