Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #16 Jamie Oliver's Ambush on Childhood Obesity and Learning to Cook

Episode Date: May 4, 2018

Dr Chatterjee talks to celebrity TV chef, restaurateur and childhood obesity campaigner Jamie Oliver on his ambitions as a boy working in his family’s business, his current role as an obesity campaigner and what he’s working on for the future. “Obesity kills more people than any conflict on the planet, so that’s why we should treat it as war.” *Please note this podcast contains some swearing* For show notes visit drchatterjee.com/jamieoliver Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier because when we feel better, we live more. we live more. Before we get into conversation with today's extremely exciting guest, I'd just like to take a moment to say thank you to every single one of you who's helped make the launch of my first book, The Four Pillar Plan, such a big success. Guys, I wrote this book because

after nearly 20 years of seeing patients, I'm convinced that about 80% of what I see in my clinic is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles. What I've tried to do is simplify health down to four key areas, the four pillars of health that we've got control over that also have the most impact on the way that we feel. Relaxation, food, movement and sleep. The book came out four months ago and I'm still getting messages every single day on social media with success stories of how the book is changing people's lives. It's giving them more energy, helping people lose weight, improve the quality of their sleep, help them with their gut problems, and even get off some of their medication. I'm also amazed that the reviews keep coming on Amazon. I've got over 400 reviews now. The bulk are five-star reviews. So guys, I really want to

say a big thank you. I really, really appreciate your support. I know people are listening to this podcast all over the world. And for a number of months now, people in the USA and Canada have been asking me when the book is coming out there. Guys, the book has just been released in the USA and Canada. It's got a brand new cover, but it's also got a brand new title. It's called How to Make Disease Disappear. So if you live in the US or Canada, you can now get it at your local bookstore, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and all the usual online retailers. Right now onto today's podcast conversation. I'm really, really excited about today's guest. It's somebody who, quite frankly, needs no introduction at all.

I'm extremely honoured that today's guest is such a big supporter and fan of my work and my book. It's celebrity chef, best-selling author, and one of the UK's most vocal and successful health campaigners, Mr. Jamie Oliver. Jamie, welcome to the Feel Better Live More podcast. Thank you for having me. Hey, it's my pleasure. So we're here in your offices, your studio. Yeah, it's kind of a studio kitchen.

We cook here, we test here, but it's soundproof so we can film here. But outside is all the test kitchens, so every recipe that i write so i normally write a couple a day will be tested cooked by me then tested five times in the business and then we send it out to a couple of strangers and then that's how the edit process works so often people sort of say how does it work and and it's pretty much worked like that for 20 years i mean it was less organized

for the first five years but we pretty much testing like that for 20 years i mean it was less organized for the first five years but we pretty much testing was always at the heart of what we did and ultimately that kind of i guess that sort of uh understanding that there is not just a customer to the book but the person thereafter goes shopping and buys ingredients and needs a really good a to z kind of instruction manual to get to success. So definitely testing was, that's what really happens. This place is just incredible, just walking through your energy, your enthusiasm, your personality, it just shines through this place.

Thank you. Yeah, it's incredible for me. And there's, you know, you wear so many different hats, Jamie, you know, we could go so many different directions in this interview. But I thought a good place to start would be, you know, you wear so many different hats, Jamie. You know, we could go so many different directions in this interview. But I thought a good place to start would be, you know, right at the beginning. So, you know, when you were a little boy, what did you think you'd be doing when you were an adult? Well, I was a happy-go-lucky kid.

I had a beautiful childhood. I lived in a little village called Clavering in Essex. About 1,100 people. Neighbours, friends, quite huckleberry thin, rivers, fields. Went to a regular state school, was definitely not a high achiever, I was the opposite. So I spent most of my education time in special needs, didn't really achieve anything at school. Got an A in art, a C in geology, and then everything else was pretty much ungraded as far as I can remember. Bad, really bad. But sort of alongside alongside that school which by the way i enjoyed i mean i think the first step to a successful school is is it happy and is it safe and it definitely was that it was

the education bit that was the problem did your teachers ask you hey jamie what do you want to be when you grow up i think they knew i was going to be a chef. Because, I mean, not through passion or kind of creativity or anything sort of like romantic. Like, I just really wanted a pair of Puma Dallas trainers. And that was the day of Freeman's catalogues. And I really wanted to drum. And there was a little three-piece drum set. Freeman's had everything.

If no one knows what Freeman's catalogue is, listening to this, then your audience is way too young um but no like i lived in the country so it was quite a slow life um and we didn't of course have internet or anything like that and distribution of anything was slow so i just wanted to earn money young like eight nine years old and my dad was like a self-made sort of working class boy that kind of set up a pub and I didn't know at the time but he was one of the kind of now I know he was one of the sort of pioneers of maybe 30 or 40 people in Britain making pubs have gastronomic food so a proper French regimental kitchen

buying whole ingredients whole pigs local games something that's the fashion now he was doing all the way but I didn't realize how cool he was yeah i just thought it was dad and i thought it was normal to walk down the stairs and your front room in a normal house was a kitchen um and we always had six or seven chefs on a shift we made all our pastry all our meringues you know we prepped our fish so it was a proper kitchen and of course i wasn't that was just normal life for me but um i really i wanted to earn money so i could buy things from freemans and that's the honest truth and i really loved the idea about if you do three hours work that can equal three pounds sixty and if you keep working then you might have a tenner and then um so life went on and i was a regular kid and and by the

time i left school at 16 i'd gone through every section of the kitchen at least six times. And I'd worked through summer holidays. And of course, you know, three quid was never enough. When you're 40 and you want 30 quid, 40 quid. Whatever you've got, you want more. Yeah, man. And also, you just wanted a girlfriend. So I was desperately trying to get a chick.

And no girls were interested in me at all. So I was desperately trying to get a chick and no girls were interested in me at all. So I had to kind of like put extra effort into procuring my Farrah trousers and my Fred Perry T-shirt. Come on! And my Fila breakdance top, which is now back in fashion, I'm apparently told. You could get your own tops out. Oh, man, I see the pictures of me and it was just all wrong. Undercut. I look like a giant strawberry. You know, big, massive lips

and my face hadn't grown into my lips at that point. But always a passion for cooking? If I'm really honest, I respected cooking. I liked cooking. I think passion is a really interesting word. Passion is a love affair, it's a romance, it's kind of an exponential thing that you can't stop I don't think I found that I think often you have to learn that I loved it but passion I don't think happened until I worked with Gennaro Contaldo

who I still work with to this day and he was my first boss in London oh wow so what age did you actually start cooking eight eight yeah and I started off in the wash-up area, £1.20 an hour. And although it was illegal, Dad was kind of almost gifted lots of children to earn pocket money. And it's something that I still believe in today. I think, you know, although there's lots of regulations around kids working, the value of money and the concept of graft and the idea of feeling good about yourself because your feet hurt

and you've been doing a bit of sweat, I think it's really, really important. And I honestly think that most of my skills that I learnt as a child were at work at the weekend. Were you forced to do that? No, my dad was quite strict. So you had to contribute at the weekend by cooking? Yeah. Or said hey dad can i cook in the kitchen i asked dad for pocket money at eight and he said i'm never going to give you pocket money but you can earn it um he did uh occasionally wake me up with a hose pipe and keep reminding me people die in bed um so get up uh regardless

of friends sleeping over so some people might think he did force me, but he didn't really force me. It was just profoundly intrinsic to a family business. Yeah. This is a family business. This is how we roll. Pull your finger out and contribute. And he was an amazing teacher. And to this day, there's so many parts of him that, you know,

I haven't been able to better myself or improve on through seeing other people. And the same with my mum, of course, because mum, it was a team effort. It was yin and yang, like any decent marriage, right? So like dad used to fire people, mum used to go and rehire them and find out what the problem was. So they were kind of like, they work well together. Do you think that as you get older and, you know, as you're, you've been a parent for a number of years now, get older and you know as you're a you know you've been a parent for a number of years now but as we get older we get more life experiences do you feel you've got a much deeper understanding of what your parents did for you because certainly I'm fine with that I've only been a parent for

eight years and I'm thinking wow I get it now I get it more than I ever got it before yeah I mean I think now I look back um you know dad was in in a, you know, quite white part of Essex, grafting and paying most people more than himself to make a business successful that was a raggedy old pub that then became a kind of prolific local hero pub. He had two kids. I think life was more analogue and the concept of community was thicker in the village then. So I mean, I still to this day believe that some of the hidden learnings of my childhood were living in a pub or the concept of a pub or what is the concept of a pub?

And what I now know is what's fascinating and what has armed me with skills that I think have got me through some really important and really tough times is anything for everyone you know that's what a pub is my best friends were gypsies cockneys you know our customers were city boys on single molts jaguar out the back and a seagull we had gypsies we had football club bowls club we had old age pension everyone was welcome there was no distinction in area. You know, it didn't matter who you were or where you came from or your financial background. Everyone is welcome. And because that was a reality, then you've got to write a menu that facilitates that. So, of course, we can have fillet steak on the menu, of course. And, of course, you'll do more of that on a Friday and a Saturday.

But you've also got to have an entry point, which is inclusive, because you've got to feed people, nourish people. But I think, you know, pubs are coming back now, but we've had 30 years of pubs declining. And I was going to say, do you think that the lack of, or the amount of pubs that have closed over the past 30 years is a problem for British culture and British society, really? Maybe. And I haven't overly thought about it,

but I think, you know, kind of bringing it back to some of our kind of working areas now, and then I'll bring it back. But, you know, I spent two years travelling around the planet, studying and looking and filming where people live the longest. More 80-year-olds, more 90-year-olds, more 100-year-olds, more centenarians than anywhere else on the planet. How? When? Why? What? What makes this 50 mile area unique? What makes their disease rates kind of skew the other parts of the country or the world? And I think, of course, it's a bundle of things. But definitely one of the things that is a consistent is community, best friends. So people that live in these areas of longevity have an average of seven to 12 best friends. The average here in Britain is three.

They have a faith. So it doesn't matter what faith, but they have a faith. And so what does that mean? I don't know to the human body. Is it stress relieving? We know stress can kill or contribute to killing. But as far as the pub's concerned, whether it's a church or a pub,

I mean, just take... Some form of community. Yeah, take away the concept of booze or religion, which debatably had a bit of booze as well and a bit of bread, depending on the day of the week. But I think the idea of a place that allows people to air views, to debate, to laugh, to giggle, to build relationships, to have solidarity, to giggle to build relationships to have solidarity to fix local

problems locally i mean yeah it kind of all feels like it makes sense i see coffee shops actually maybe serving that kind of role for some people now and you know the last 10-15 years coffee shops and cafes have exploded but the difference is is, at the heart of coffee shops, success is not coffee anymore. And it's not milk and it's not the machines and it's not the training. If you really look into the underbelly, and people might argue this, but I think I'm right, is Wi-Fi. And when you go to coffee shops, they're all rattling a Wi-Fi. They're on a screen, mate. You know, they're working.

So I guess the point I'm making is not that they're relevant or useful i think they can be and probably will be but in a pub people talked i don't know about you but talking that's what we're doing now isn't it nice yeah well in a few years back when i you know probably drank a little bit more coffee than i should have done you know i'd stop off on the way to work it was super early i'd stop off at a local cafe get my americano and i sit down and you know days become weeks weeks become months and you actually hang out with the same people doing the same thing and i i realized i sort of reflected one day that i've just spent 20 minutes having a sit down chat with people i don't know i probably wouldn't get involved with and you know my my world and their world probably wouldn't collide. But you're right, they do have sofas and they do try and make it a communal space.

And I think, interestingly, even back in my little slow, gorgeous village of Saffron, town of Saffron Warden, you know, our local pub was turned into a Starbucks. There you go. So, you know, slowly but surely the pub's been going, and, you know, I don't know. I thought you were going to say that

one of the ways in which these guys make profit now is from all the snacks and all the sugary muffins and things. That's probably what I should have said, yeah. Well, no, but I thought actually that probably brings relevance to, you know, what you're doing today. Yeah. You know, the Jamie Oliver of 2018 compared to the boy at eight who's, you know, trying to earn a bit of pocket money and the

way to do that is to work in his dad's kitchen the boy at eight was a very simple um happy-go-lucky uh nice kid you know that and the same for the boy of 15 you know i've changed a lot you know and and for the better uh in many ways yes i think i think my life has taken on a different kind of role now or that's how i hold myself to account i think um without question i mean and this hopefully doesn't sound um uh pretentious but i feel like a public servant really strongly. And through books and through the relationships and stories that I've told through food, as clear as my very own wife, you know, what's right for the public at large is my boss. And that is a responsibility and often an incredible burden and it's unequivocal unless you want to

retire which I can but I don't feel obliged to but I can but I don't think I should it's it's a really interesting thing and I like you know that's so far away from that 15 year old boy that really what I knew I was going to do at 15 was go to london work for three or four years learn some new skills and bring it back to the countryside and between me and dad we were going to find another local pub and i'd be doing 65 covers i'd have a small wine list and i'd rattle out some kick-ass dishes and and i knew i was going to do that i knew i could achieve that and i had a very very, very predictably nice village, pub, life and an okay sort of lifestyle to go with it. And I was fine with that. Do you ever sit back and think, what would it have been like? What would your life have been like had you gone down that path rather than do all the great things that you have achieved i think i'd still be

with jules yeah um i definitely still have five kids because she's like she's like loves kids um i think we'd be really happy i think we would we would more happy essentially probably yeah i'd like to say my family life could be as happy i think my work life which is full of lots of nice things and i'm very grateful for that, everything's a balance. You know, I'm just coming out of a phase of being, like, shot to bits for, like, months by press for various reasons, you know, mainly around sort of work, restaurants, all kinds of things, campaigning. So obviously you become a target.

And I think in Britain, culturally, like, being enthusiastic and having an opinion really rattles people's cage. But you know what? I think I'm also coming to terms with, and you're going to have to do this as well, is coming to terms with some people can't stand you. Yeah. And that you repulse a percentage of people. But I think as long as, like everything, as long as there's light and shade, as long as there's, like, I think there's no point in having a public facing job, which we both do, if that is such a thing that was possible, is just time. I mean, if you just don't go away and if you just keep telling the truth, like you've got a chance. And I think in public health and the things that we're both deeply passionate about,

which is how do we make real food more accessible to families, especially the poorest and most disadvantaged you know how do we not just from food but how do we make that access to education or skin on skin or training or teaching or inspiring available to everyone is should it be a human right for every child to be taught about where food comes from and how it affects their body and do you die 11 years younger by not doing your geography homework and if you know how to budget and cook and know the basics of nutrition will you live seven to ten years longer and i know you know that these are statistics that really are your life right now but also people and i think when you work in a restaurant and when you work in a doctor's surgery you have to stand back and try

and be professional although you could joke about many things and say this is the customer and the customer is many things they're right and they're wrong they're nice and they're hideous and sometimes they're confused and sometimes they've been misled and both restaurateurs and doctors have to deal with all of that and you have to love them all. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as a GP, I mean, we see everyone. We see rich, poor. We see, you know, granddads. We see little babies.

We see the whole spectrum that's out there in society. And they come to us and they trust us. They open up to us about things. And, you know, you learn a lot. You feel very privileged. You feel very privileged you feel very very lucky that actually people are sharing parts of their lives that sometimes they're not shared with anyone else and they're sharing with you and you do that for enough time

and you start to reflect on what you've learned and you really do start to to pick up things you do start to see that actually you know it's very easy particularly when you're trying to make a change in public health you know people assume that everyone else has the same knowledge base as they do but they don't so we just did that uh facebook live um you know just what about half an hour ago and you know i saw some of the comments but what's incredible for me is that i have been sat at that practice in oldham, where I worked for seven years, with a family. Their child was, I think it was eight years old. He was struggling with his weight.

And we went through their diet. And they were giving them this sugary cereal box every day. Because there was a, I think it was a picture of a heart on it. Something like that. And I remember saying to the parents, hey guys, look, did you know how much sugar is in this? And they were shocked, like literally shocked. They said, well, hold on, it all looks really healthy. It's, you know, healthy cereal and that's what I've been told

and, you know, a lot of people don't realise that. We don't realise that actually there are still pockets of the population. There's still a lot of people out there who don't know some of the basics. But often what we're campaigning for is really i mean we're not we're not actually if i got you to write down all your wishes and mine i bet there's nothing nasa or science-based really i mean science like getting people to the moon base it's really simple stuff like truth honesty jimmy what i say to people is that the principles of good health right haven't changed in hundreds

of years what has changed is the environment in which we're living it's that simple so many people say well you know you talk a lot about these four pillars so that's my whole thing it's about that health is a combination I think of these four key areas food movement sleep and relaxation you know some people say well you know yeah but that's kind of pretty obvious I'm like yeah I know I'm not, yeah, I know. I'm not claiming to have invented the new rules of health. I think these have always been the rules of health, but the society in the past has made it easy for us to do them.

But also, you know, and I have to give you credit for this because you've done an incredible job. It's like, look, very few people have invented anything. We're all evolving stuff. And it's not just hard fact or science. It's also the way in which it's not just hard fact or science it's also the way in which it's told the story in which it's told or the way the lens in which you look through expressing or showing something and i think simplification of cooking and simplification of health and and and the area that you work in is really interesting and i think can i ask you

a question far away because like i think so i went back to school like four and a half years ago and i studied nutrition i got a diploma in nutrition and i've now started a master's and as you know nutrition is one of the newest sciences and it's very scientific and and you would know that because you've done seven or eight years of hardcore training and it's interesting like it it gave me fact and it gave me science and it gave me a real understanding of a whole bunch of different stuff that was proven by incredible metadata and studies and but i find myself not only becoming interested even more so in that and validity of data and and truth again yeah but also weirdly

it's maybe more of a hippie and and what the reason i mentioned that is because there's so much that science can tell you but exponentially more that it can't you know we know about a certain amount of vitamins that we know of but we kind of think there might be other things going on there and you know so it's almost what we don't know inspires me to sort of i think it is the stuff that is in your four pillar plan it is like you know relaxation or is that meditation is it singing is it poetry is it having a nap is it having a chat it's all these things yeah and that's what I detail out in the relaxation pill. I say, guys, it can be any one of these things. It's not a prescription.

But what's interesting about what you said, as you're learning more about nutrition, it reminds me of something that I say, which some people find a little bit controversial. Right. And that is when I'm seeing a patient, right, that I'm sitting in my practice as a sick patient in front of me, the practice of medicine, I think, is art and science.

And what I mean by that is, yes, the science is important. Of course, we're all looking for the truth. We're looking for what's the best data we've got. But no bit of science tells me exactly what is relevant for that person in front of me, you know, with their lifestyle, with their cultural beliefs, their job, what's going to be relevant for them? And when I go around the country teaching doctors, I always say, guys, look, you've got to know the science.

You've got to be up to date. But then there's also something about you trying to interpret that science and making it relevant for the person in front of you. It's not just about saying, well, this study showed that, so therefore you have to do this. I probably did think that 10 years ago. about saying, well, this study showed that, so therefore you have to do this. I probably did think that 10 years ago. But as you get more experience, you learn that actually, you know, there is a certain magic in that human connection. There's nuance. There's nuance, and that's always hard.

You know, we talk about changing public health guidelines and really trying to create that change on a societal level. What I find quite tricky is there's always disagreement. There's always like, yeah, but that's not the answer. This could be the answer instead. But there is nuance to everything, but we've got to start somewhere with some kind of basic principles. Yeah, we have randomly made our children in Britain some of the most unhealthy kids in Europe and the world. britain some of the most unhealthy kids uh in europe in the world uh we've randomly um had a graph of ill health of our children from 2000 to 2018 within our lives within our kind of decades of being professional but one thing's for sure is we can't randomly get out of this trouble

we get we have to strategically fight out of this trouble if we want to get back to the health kind of um credentials of our children of 2000 right which is still that there were still problems then so I think what's interesting is you know what I like fundamentally about your four pillar plan is really if you just get bigger pillars and you get someone to pick them up get a a forklift and take, because really the four pillar plan is about your home and your family and your children. And if you're lucky, you'll buy a four pillar book and give it to someone you love, right?

But I think from a societal point of view and from a public health point of view, we want to take those pillars and bring it out to your cul-de-sac and we want to bring it out to your town and we want to bring it out to our country. And the power of the four pillars might not be as potent as when it was in your home, but the power of even doing half as well for the nation

saves lives, saves money, makes people happier, makes them more productive, makes them flourish. And I think even if we get off of health and go into business, Britain is amazing britain when i come home from countries that don't have the nhs regardless of how bad stuff is i sort of say hallelujah and and our ancestors that put the welfare state in place you know bless them and weirdly enough i started a little restaurant called 15 that was a charity that the proceeds would train underprivileged kids that had kind of come out of, you know, problems with the law or just generally lost.

And I set up in Old Street Roundabout. I was 15 years old now. And it was always a bit of the concept of, can you turn a sow's ear into a silk purse, was a slight, the first divider of me and my dad. He thought I was wasting my time, first divider of me and my dad. He thought I was wasting my time being a lunatic. This is ridiculous.

Maybe he was right. Maybe he's wrong. I think 15 taught me more lessons than most things in my life. But interestingly, like years later, I found out that half a mile down the road, unbeknownst to me in a pub called the Ten Bells, my great, great grandfather was the landlord and he had a soup kitchen out the back and that would feed waves of new immigrants and in that time they would have a low alcohol beer that they would give to children not because they were stupid but because there was cholera in the water and apparently you'd see dead babies and bodies in the street the same streets that hipsters tread today same buildings same pubs.

The Ten Bells was where, you know, a couple of the Jack the Ripper victims came from, right? But the point is, is that his soup kitchen was one of thousands of charities, and some of the bigger ones were like Barnardo's, right? They're the things that inspired the welfare state because shit was bad. When there's dead babies on the street, that's bad.

That's in the history books. Those buildings are still there. The arches of Spitalfield Market are the same ones where those babies were on the street. And so then we start talking about public health. And we go, well, look, guys, it ain't luck that the water don't kill you. It's legislation, law law some scientists and operators within the 28 or 29 water companies in britain that aren't government

necessarily owned anymore most of them aren't for sure like that water's clean yeah it's clean and it ain't luck and i think the thing and i'm sure you have to put up with it as well is the conversation is so favored to personal responsibility because businesses want you to think like that and your average comfortable brit and there's a lot of lot of us right britain is a largely middle-class country we can get on that rhetoric about personal responsibility yeah let parents parent but i think for people like yourself that have worked in like very poor communities seeing the sharp end of ill health which is diet related for me and all the things that i've made myself do before i talk

about them with child health which is primarily driven by the most disadvantaged communities and going on to school dinners and free school lunches and just that as a concept, you know. I think it's really important that good parents that feel that they should parent, that think personal responsibility is really great, I agree with them. Yeah.

But you're too busy to know the layers of detail that are hidden around every bloomin' corner in the food industry. And that must make it easier for parents to do the job that they want to do as well. Some of them, you know, when I talk to parents, a lot of people find it hard. They say, look, I'm trying my best. But once we get outside the front door... This stuff is parent-focused. This stuff is child-focused. Well, why don't you talk me through, Jamie, you know, you've got big plans at the moment with childhood obesity.

You were involved, I think, with David Cameron a few years back in terms of trying to make some changes. But why don't you talk me through what you've done and also what you're trying to do? I think I was the only civvy that was allowed into the sort of, I called it the war room, but it's not. Well, I think it might be in the war room, but the room where they kind of develop these constructs for public uh well for change and how was that it was amazing being the only city in there it was amazing and an honor and i got to meet lots of people and and and i was very impressed about how the room was run by him so i'm apolitical just fyi um and have been since i started campaigning because it doesn't really do me any favours, favouring one over the other.

And ultimately, I don't think that child health should be political. I don't think protecting kids or the NHS should be political, but we do try and politicise it. And when we do, it just slows progress. Same with the NHS. Same with the NHS. We don't want it as a tool that these parties just chuck around and fight against each other. We need to have it so this is in the national interest.

There's a few, I mean, just before I kind of get into that, there's a few things at work at a government level that we can kind of look at. If you just take education, for instance, like, you know, what's happened in education in Canada and Korea in the last few decades, in the last few decades, the results they're getting, which are really contemporary and really impressive, are based around a 20-year cross-party agreement on the principles of looking after Canadian and Korean kids, right? So my point is, get your fundamentals together, say what the dream is, and go and do it. Don't contradict contradict it don't go back on it and just let good people do good work based on the foundations of a belief of something whether it's education and in my opinion nhs or any of those other things so what is that thing for obesity so when i was with mr cameron we were we were really kind of starting to put into place some public facing and some business facing

initiatives some would be about legislation some would facing initiatives. Some would be about legislation, some would be about collaboration, some would be about education, and they all rhyme, so that's sort of nice. And it was, of course, lots of ideas based on science and data and real stuff really happening. Of course, the Conservatives loves a nudge. Oh, I like nudge people. And I like nudge too. I think you can slowly's nudge people. And I like nudge too. I think you can slowly change people's behaviour. You can slowly kind of take strategically salt out of a product

and then if it's done across a whole kind of genre, you'll never notice and we can prove that. And for instance, so the salt reduction plan in Britain has been really effective. We're not quite there yet,

but we don't want to celebrate too much because we don't want to go back up. But it has worked. Sugar was totally different, totally different for lots of reasons. But yeah, so the idea of what does a relevant childhood obesity strategy look like for 2016 was the question. So in my opinion, it was looking good because it was about reformulation, which the public never need to know about because what the government like to do is sort of say we would like you we think you should volunteer to not have as much rubbish in your product and what happens is the big brands that have got a lot to lose will comply and then the mid-size and small brands are erratic but they also compromise each other so you have laggards that are real problems. So often you get even the might of the problem saying, legislate.

We need a fair playing field. So whether it's, you know, should a busy British parent have clear colour-coded labelling on the front of the pack? Yes, it's not legislation. We would like you to. Now, I would like the kids to not get run over in the road. So can you put a Pelican Cross in there? Or in school times, have someone with a little lollipop? You know, I mean, I'd like lots of things in life.

But I think when it comes to protecting, you know, too much energy in the atmosphere as a simplicity is the problem with obesity and a lot of the drivers of diet-related disease that you have to serve. And you're saying, what, 70%, 80% of your patients? I think, you know, honestly, when I look at it, some days I look back at my list and I look at what people have come in with,

I think I can quite confidently say about 70% to 80% of what I see in general practice is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles right you know there's other factors you know yes diet is a huge huge one of them you know there's there's great research on the fact that we're living in a sleep deprivation epidemic at the moment and that is a contributor to obesity and all these other things you know which is basically modern life in our 24-7 society we've got all this shift work We know that shift work is associated with health problems. But these things aren't going away, right? These things are here to stay.

It's what can we do to make it easier for people to live happier, healthier lives. And I think that's the key. I think for both of us, it's right. It's not about necessarily telling people, oh, you can't do this and you can't eat that. It's about saying, look, guys, at the moment, if you're trying to make those healthy choices, once you step outside your front door, it's pretty damn hard.

Mate, I love a burger. Do you love a burger? I love a burger, yeah. I love a pizza. I'm sure you love a pizza. I love a pint. I like a cocktail, right? In a way, they're really honest. They've never lied to you about being an indulgence, right? You know, if you have 10 Negronis, you know it ain't going to be good times, right? And if you do it regularly, you know it's going to be a problem, right?

But I think what's happened with the food industry, tactically, is it's always been better for margins, growth, like for likes, and profit. If you can flog water, and we love water water but like water in a product salt fat or sugar and that's the way the world's gone so even if you look at you know i remember when frozen food as a concept and as a delivery mechanism turned up at my primary school just as mrs thatcher took away the free milk for schools which was a public health initiative because our kids didn't have enough calcium and when that stopped i remember the local girls cooking local food for local kids in a local school it went out to competitive tendering which mean business could come in so it's basically kind of like a catering version of mcdonald's could come in and pitch for work of course the cheapest always win then it was a big kind of race to the bottom. The frozen food vans turned up.

And of course, freezing is genius. It's like a time capsule. It's definitely going to be a relevant part for hundreds of years of health, nutrition, control, lowering waste. But we chose to freeze crap. And we've continued to do that for 40 years, i mean other than some haagen-dazs prawns and peas and chips right you know we've historically kind of we have frozen low quality

stuff so it gets a bad rep right so i mean i'm massively sidetracked but i think what we're trying to sort of say is diet related disease and obesity is a normal response to an abnormal environment and i think when you throw technology like microwaves freezing women going to work uh in larger numbers uh and technology digital tech when you just bundle that into 30 years actually although humans and the planet has been used to constant change always not this pace this pace is kind of extraordinary yeah and that's that's the crux of what you know i see as a doctor is the fact that you know and there's this big conversation about medical training at

the moment and about you know should doctors uh get more training in nutritional lifestyle and i passionately think we should do and it's not because we don't have nutrition professionals already they do exist but what's happened is that you come out of medical school you think you've been given all the tools you need to help your patients and what happens is that year on year you start practicing and this is what happened with me and a few years ago I genuinely thought I was only really helping about 20% of my patients I thought you know the other 80% I'm doing something but I'm often just putting a sticking plaster on their problem because a lot of it is lifestyle driven and so what's happened problem because a lot of it is lifestyle-driven. And so what's happened is that a lot of doctors who are looking at their patient lists are going,

I'm not helping as many as I could. They're trying to figure out ways themselves of how can I help this patient. So a lot of doctors are self-interested and learning bits and bobs. It's not the same as being taught proper nutrition at medical school, but a lot of people are learning that I need to figure something out so that I can help these patients.

That's certainly what happens to me. So just to clarify this to your listeners, right, as a doctor that goes through, what, seven years of training? Yeah, so medical school for me was six years because I did an immunology degree as well. You were clever, weren't you? You did it fast. You turbocharged that.

I think, you know, everyone who goes to medical school has got a certain, you know, they get certain grades to go to medical school. Now, I don't necessarily think that converts to being a good doctor because I think actually being a good doctor is also about those interpersonal skills and the ability to communicate. Of course. But, you know, let's say everyone who goes to medical school. Just to be clear to your listeners, nutrition training is optional.

It's not, what's the correct word? It's not mandatory. Compulsory, yeah. I mean, Jamie, look, if I'm honest, I think back to my training at Edinburgh. And Edinburgh is a fantastic medical school, you know, very prestigious, traditional medical school. I don't remember getting anything on nutrition that, you know, maybe we got a few hours i can't it it

wasn't done in such a way that actually i remember it and i use it with my patients let's put it like that it's not that doctors aren't genius enough to embrace that stuff like at turbo speed because what took me two years you could probably do towards the end of your training in a week right jamie what it is the way i the the way I try and communicate to the public now is that basically the health landscape of the UK has changed dramatically. Our medical school training is brilliant, but it's primarily brilliant for a lot of what we used to see. I'm saying we need a bigger toolbox.

The skills I've learned are great. I still use them, but I want a bigger toolbox so that I can help more people. And that's what it's about. It's about saying, you know, I'm very, very proud of my medical school training but it doesn't help me with some of these lifestyle-driven illnesses. I don't think it makes you a turncoat

for saying that such an important profession that is brilliant and robust in this country and British doctors are world famous and respected but I think it's okay to think we can always do better. Exactly. brilliant and robust in this country. And British doctors are world famous and respected. But I think it's okay to think we can always do better. Exactly. It's just saying, hey, guys, let's update what we're learning now because... Relevance. Yeah, we need things that are more relevant.

And, you know, we talk about this a lot, but when people think about diet and lifestyle, they're always thinking about obesity and type 2 diabetes. And I get that. But this is much bigger than that. I kind of get fed up with the obesity word. It just, it kills me. Mental health problems, right?

Mind is saying that one in four people in the UK are going to have a mental health problem at some point in the year. Let's think about one in four people, right? That's a huge amount. And we know that diet and lifestyle plays a role right i'm not saying it's everything right but they are key factors and i've i've gone through loads of case studies where we've shown that by changing someone's diet you can improve their mental

health there was a great study from a year ago jamie a year ago this the study in australia it's called the smiles trial it's about 67 was about 67 people. It's a small study. But they took these people who've got depression, moderate or severe depression, and were already on treatment, right? And half the group, roughly half, with a dietician, went on a modified Mediterranean diet for 12 weeks.

The other group didn't. That was a statistically significant improvement on their Mediterranean diet. and I'm like why are we not and I've lectured about 100 doctors in Bristol about two months ago and at the start of it I said hey guys how many of you talk about food with your mental health patients I reckon about two to five percent of people put their hand up it's amazing and then at the end of it when I presented the research I said guys look how many will now and they all put their hand up because what's the downside?

What is the downside of changing someone's diet, right? Let's say it doesn't have the impact you want. There are still other benefits, right? Well, I think obviously diet and lifestyle can change many, many, many things. And everyone keeps sort of showing the trophy of making fat people not fat. But, you know, and that's based on statistics and averages of lots of people i mean i think health and feeling good is the optimal price you know i mean like i mean making people this just making people healthier is still a wonderful thing to

get you know i mean i think it's always very weight driven and i'm not disputing whether that is not useful but i think it's bigger than that and it's not just weight and it's not just calories. Jamie the reason this podcast is called Feel Better Live More right is over the last 12 months I've really had to without getting too hippie actually do you know go go inside myself and try and figure out why are you doing all this stuff in you know the the media you know going around the country lecturing why are you doing all that? Is it just about health?

And I thought, actually, this is much bigger than health because a lot of what I see around us in society, whether it's unhappiness, whether it's people nagging at each other, relationships not going so well, without extending this too far, I would say that a lot of the way that we're acting is because we just don't feel as good as we could do.

I genuinely find that when you can help people feel as good as they can feel, they start to get more out of life. I think, like, look, this is... But this is why we come back to, like, if I was a dictator... ..I would make it law that every kid is taught how to cook and where food comes from in school and um and by default the flourishing of education that can happen but by supporting

it properly and fundamentally i mean like even in this business here what i've done recently i used to run charities and bits and pieces on the side and we'd have people doing product here and people doing pots and pans here and design there. And then we'd have the charity and it was all very nice. Now we put the charity in the middle, the epicenter. And what changes is that everything has to have purpose or change or inspire or educate. And if it doesn't, we shouldn't do it. Right. And I think on education, what's amazing is there is no easier way to teach maths than baking, right? There is no easier way to teach geography and culture and history than cooking and food and how food and the transport of food around the country has changed things. But also, more than anything, what is it being British or Turkish or Cypriot?

Like, to be Brazilian is food-driven, you know? And I think to beish is driven by our food our national dish is chicken tikka masala and fish and chips of which neither are british everyone thinks fish and chips is that was jewish portuguese by the way sorry to break it to you and and nothing to do with britain at all you know so i think it's chicken tikka masala that's not british either well i think the brit British soldiers might have had something to do with bending a few recipes, but, you know, we know how and when that came and I'm not debating whether it's a delicious dish,

but it was an ism, wasn't it? It was an English ism of something that we'd kind of taken from another country and in the world of food, for sure, no-one's invented nothing. Everything's an evolution. world of food for sure no one's invented nothing everything's an evolution and the concept of poverty hunger wars technology travel sailing trade the slave triangle all of these things and many more have shaped many things that we take for granted whether it's the ketchup that's a ketchup from china or a worcestershire sauce that came through... I love what you're saying, that very few of us have invented anything new.

No one. Well, unless they've invented air or water. Yeah. It reminds me of something that, I think it was Lenny Kravitz who said this. I'm a huge music fan. I think Lenny Kravitz once said that modern music is just a giant fruit bowl

and people just pick up different fruits and squeeze them and that's what comes out. And I thought he really was on i think it was crowds anyway but it but it but that's going back to your four pillar plan right you know you could probably take everything you written there and and and take its journey to other things you've read in different parts of your life right but the only thing that's important about that is the lens and the way that you've communicated that and and for me through food like everything's inspired by something and then but again it's kind of it's the way i mean like last night i went into a school and um it was like 120 people and there were kids going to do

their exams for the next three weeks so i'd never done it before but i liked the challenge can food make you cleverer it can so i talked i said right we're going to go science and then we get we don't eat nutrients but we eat food but let's just talk about the nutrients like how does zinc iodine iron how does that make the brain optimal what is this brain they didn't even know the brain took 20 of your your energy yeah you know the brain is a greedy machine and you gotta feed that bad boy with water with oxygen and all the things it needs to be sort of sharp and on the ball. And, and, and of course, when you're talking to students about, which is an unusual thing, isn't it? Being optimal for three weeks that could change your life forever. Yeah. That's one thing. And that was the seriousness of it. It's like, guys, if you're in the Olympics,

this is the last three weeks. If you've got the revision in fine, you like guys if you're in the olympics this is the last three weeks if you've got the revision in fine you know if you know but it's about getting your sleep in getting your if you're going to snack good snacking not bad like everything can contribute to a b to an a and and i think even if you're looking at an adult or an employer you know if you've got a factory of 3 000 people and if you only serve shite, you know, nutritionally speaking, is that OK? Is it your human right to only be given shite or given choice? If there's only vending that's bad for night shift workers, will they get fitter or iller? And we know they'll get iller. Well, this is why, you know, this is going beyond being a health issue to being an economic issue.

Because I think in the US now, the new generation of kids born have got a lower life expectancy. First time ever. And Britain, dare I say. Yeah, I don't know. Is it the same? I've seen statistics that say that this generation of British kids are expected to live a shorter lifestyle than their parents. This is incredible. It's the first time this has happened.

And I think, actually, if the moral imperative to make a change in health has not been enough, right? I don't think it has been enough, unfortunately. I think that the financial imperative is going to start driving change. I think businesses are going to go, wait a minute, we can't afford this many people off sick, right? Taking time off, not feeling engaged at work, not being productive enough.

We've got to make this environment better. But dude, this is why random ain't good enough. This is why this letter today and getting cross-party support for, we don't agree in everything, but in child health. Well, Jamie, why don't you actually summarise that? You've achieved so many great wins in your career, you know, with sugar, with energy drinks, you know. What are some of the big wins you're hoping for here?

So this is not everything, but essentially what we've got is a range of the most powerful ministers in Britain. And we've got a letter to them that says, in your up and coming childhood obesity strategy, chapter two, we believe this has to be an environmental holistic ambush on bad health for kids like it kills more people than any conflict on the planet so let's treat it like a war so the what what they've all agreed to is um regulating certain things so i'll just go through so from mrs may she's the government she's the boss so her remit is just to have a really good childhood obesity strategy right but because she's the one at the top like she's just got to say yes do it i believe if you go to jeremy hunt who's a secretary of state for social care you know it is compulsory

sugar and calorie reduction targets on foods and not just voluntary but they're measured right so we had a deal called the responsibility deal, right? That's been going for years. It hasn't worked. I guess our belief is it should be the accountability deal, right? Do what you say. Don't just lie. So mandatory training for GPs on key aspects of nutrition. We've just covered that, right? And I'm sure you will be a key person to drive that. A ban on the sale of energy drinks for under-16s. It already says it on the can, but there's kids not just doing themselves harm and having access to them,

but also what we proved is that a couple of kids on energy drinks are making teachers around Britain in classes of 20 or 30 do a compromise plan B or plan C for a class. So that is retarding British kids of the optimal chance of education and therefore presumably careers and this, that. Do you know what I mean? It is about the C going to a D and the B going to a C.

We're talking about the government increasing its investment in public health budgets and a continued national childhood measurement scheme. So just some of this sounds really boring, but okay, so we used to have a compuls national childhood measurement scheme. So just some of this sounds really boring, but OK. So we used to have a compulsory childhood measurement scheme that all areas of the country and kids would be measured at school. Right. Why is this important? We can't keep talking about how bad things are

if we don't know if it's getting better or worse, a.k.a. if it's working or not. There ain't no point in spending public money if it ain't working and vice versa so what they did is they devolved that power and now it's optional yeah and optional having a randomly good test isn't you know we want a good test we want good measurement so um what's your top line target with this you know what would you hope to see this strategy achieve? Basically what it would achieve is getting food businesses to behave and be honest and communicate what is actually happening in the pack,

front of pack, colour coded and clear to help busy working mums and dads. Behind the scenes of food production, it is things like the fortification of foods. So last year in the world of nutrition, and it was quite exciting because it never happens, the highest powers that be said that everyone in winter should take vitamin D. And I'm sure you had the memo and you did. What we've seen since that incredible information is no one's bought any more vitamin C,

aka the public are too busy and not interested to do what they're advised to do. And you know how vitamin D is incredibly powerful for the immune system, for your happiness, health. Your bone strength. You can get it from the sun, but we live in England, right? So what's amazing about fortification is you need never know, brother,

because I can get vitamin D in your flour and I can do it by the week, by the month. And as soon as that sun starts popping out, I can take it out. You know, we can be intelligent about fortification of things we're deficit in. And also with so many people going into vegan diets at the moment, you know, it's not compulsory to put iodine into non, there's natural iodine in milk. There's none. And I can't find one brand that's got it in almond milk, rice milk, all the other milks. And of course, if we got kids going vegan and they ain't getting their iodine, you know, we've got issues here.

So I think, you know, but it's so, I mean, I know you know this ain't clever. This is basic stuff. But this is why, you know, getting, you know, a lot of people say the government should stay out of health. But I don't think either one of us agree because actually a lot of these big big big ideas you know these sort of big concepts they can take care of them so that we don't actually have to worry about them um and the other thing is is that a lot of people you know and i'm like i'm all for the you know eat real food movement i absolutely am but we've got to accept that actually a lot of people are eating processed foods having highly processed foods So we've got to at least make it healthy for those guys. To clarify my position on that,

the kind of easy rhetoric is like, oh, Jamie Oliver, you sort of like middle class, rich wanker, you know, whatever. You know, yeah, it's all right for you, you can buy fillet steaks. And I get that all the time, right? As if it's disarming me of truth, right? And A, the best food in the world

has always come from the poorest communities. But the leverage point is they have to know how to cook. If you've got poor communities that don't know how to cook, hell happens. And we're seeing that in patchwork quilt around the planet. Secondly, I haven't got a problem with convenience or science or even food on the go. And good does not look like bad, flashing red, to green. I'm not expecting everyone to go quinoa and superfood right i honestly like good to me certainly conceptually as public health is going from

flashing red to red the value of going from flashing red to red is is relevant it's possible it's doable we can see difference next month the month after but also it does you know if you look at public health and mass sort of public study it means less disease less people turning up to you yeah i don't know jeremy i i draw the same analogy to the in january and actually this saturday i'm running the the first royal college of gp accredited prescribing lifestyle medicine course for doctors, right? I'm not teaching with my colleagues, doctors, a full load of, you know, I'm not teaching them to be a nutritionist in one day, right?

This is, you know, specialized training that people get. What I'm trying to move them from is flashing red to red to say, guys, you don't feel comfortable talking about lifestyle. You don't have a framework and how you can start using that. So I've come up with a new framework. 200 doctors did it in January. We've got a private Facebook group and they're using it every day in their practice. They're putting on all our views.

But it's resource, isn't it? It's resource, but it's also, it's not perfection, but it's just moving them a little bit along the scale. So doctors who didn't feel that they could, now go, oh, great, I'm going to use that four pillar framework with my patients.

And when I don't know what to do, I'm going to go that four pillar framework with my patients and when i don't know what to do i'm going to go to that and they're saying they'll love it do you know what's interesting sort of as as a kind of operational gift of of solidarity to doctors for instance right if you're saying that good in being a doctor in the future is one that has you know nutrition knowledge and then if government responds correctly hopefully based on what you and your colleagues kind of mold to be relevant is like i've got resource that's levers i can pull if i so want it whether it's kind of anorexia whether it's kind of eating disorders whether it's you know intolerance to this that or the other or just health obesity related things but from my point of

view i know everyone thinks i'm jazz hands and it's all little mr jo doing a little program i've got 7 000 recipes that i own the pictures to videos to i've got recipes that are tested seven times minimum and they generally work and then most importantly all nutritionally sort of done everyone has its own nutrition kind of work but also they're tagged so i can plug my content and i'll give it for free into an NHS system. So when you're in your place in Leeds or here or there or the other, or if there's a resource that people that need help go to, and also based on being, you know, because I don't write by luck anymore.

I write recipes that are cheap. I write recipes that are indulgent. I write recipes that are gluten-free and vegan and vegetarian. Nothing's by luck. It's all structured. So, you know, if you kind of imagine recipes being like a jukebox and you can just go, yeah, £1.50, vegan, bosh, 500 recipes, go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

That's exciting, isn't it? Do you know what I mean? So I think we can be intelligent. You know, like doctors are like DJs, you know what I mean? You need the tracks, you need the resource. So whether whether that's we need the specialists to refer to as well but we need to have that broad base of knowledge yeah well jb we you know we both i know i can talk we could we could we could go on for another hour i mean i think look on the childhood abc strategy what we did was we went for everything from is it okay OK to advertise, targeted advertising to kids, billboard, going to school, TV, screens.

You know, that was Matt Hancock who was responsible for that. Do you know what excites me most on this? It's this, this ambition there in black and white, the ambition to halve childhood obesity by 2030, to halve childhood obesity. Do you think that's achievable? That's the 2030 project. That's what we've given birth to and and the point of the 2030 project which was born here is also not just to get not for me was to get every

part of my business to contribute and if they didn't disappear go away or modify and it's and 2030 is a concept if you put kids and child health first which as you said earlier is a metaphor for economic prosperity social prosperity cultural prosperity and shortening the gap between the richest and the poorest then um what's interesting is it means that we also 2030 project means i have to work with big business even the bad guys it means i have to work it means i you know literally since i gave birth to 2030 two months ago my life is really complicated my life is quite demanding and it's much easier now because 2030 decides it's a really good thing so so i think everything goes through that lens it goes does it fit with 2030 projects or not yeah because i know you agree on all the same things. And I think the spirit of 2030 project

is collaboration, relationships, using science, technology and data and content, new and old, to make everyone allow children, which by default allows mummy and daddy, and furthermore, to flourish. Jamie, there is so much we could talk about we're gonna have to do a part two but just to finish off let's call it a part one right one thing I tend to ask my guests on this podcast is you know I talk about these four pillars of health and I think this four

pillar framework is great for every single person listening to apply in their own life you know which pillar do you need the most work in and so i'd ask you jamie out of those four pillars which pillar do you think you need the most work in i need to get more time for myself and relaxation relaxation pillar meditation pillar um like downtime yeah well listening to myself pillar Pillar, you know, definitely I see that clearly. Have you got a strategy to do that? 2030 says I can't really. But no, it's called The Weekends. And I think I kind of feel that I can get more of that if I am fighting a lot of fires at the moment.

And I'm hoping a few of them will go out. Today's really good news because it's like the fire brigade just turned brigade just turned up yeah do you know i mean and the kids are in there they're in the forest and it is burning but we've got a mob of fire engines now so i feel like there is hope and and when things get a bit easier then i can do a little bit more but i think actually more relaxation will make you more productive and one thing i say to a lot of my patients is that guys in meditation if it all sounds a bit too scary, start off with choosing a tune that you love and listen to it for 10 minutes a day or listen to two or three of your favourite tracks.

Put your headphones on. Just make sure you're not scrolling emails and social media at the same time and just lose yourself in that music. I know you're a music fan. No, music's really important. That acts as a great switch off for many of us. So, yeah, good luck with that. I know relaxation is what I struggle with the most as well.

Let's see if we can do it next time. And the final bit for those people listening, I always try and leave them with some actionable tips that they can think about applying. I've got loads of parents who listen to this podcast, loads of mums, loads of dads. And I wonder, as we're both fathers, we're both passionate about getting our kids involved in the kitchen.

Have you got some top tips that people listening who want to get their kids involved, how can they do it? Try and have fun with it. Try and get the kids to choose. Get them to flick through books and put stickies on and get involved. Use online if you want. If you can take as a parent, it doesn't matter if you don't let any kind of money thing get in the way take him to a farmer's market once a month for their whole childhood and you have to spend nothing just walk from the top to the bottom and everyone that's passionate that do it that love it that

live for it will will inspire that child that walks down that farmer's market in some way shape or form and it will only do them good i think prepare for making some mess and embrace it but also you don't have to feel guilty about using a microwave or a freezer you can be clever about cooking no matter what your budget is and don't forget the best food i've ever eaten in my life has never come from rich communities ever wow It's affordable and accessible for everyone. It's a very British thing that loving food or being foodie is middle class. That does not happen in Europe. Yeah. It doesn't happen in India. No. Where my heritage is from, it doesn't happen there either. No. Don't believe the hype. Yeah. Well, Jamie, those are fantastic tips. really appreciate your time and always good to see you so there you have it guys that is the end of my conversation with Jamie Oliver I hope you enjoyed

it and if you did and if you got something useful out of it please do consider sharing this episode with your friends and your family and your social networks. In fact, why not take a screenshot on your phone right now and post it on your Instagram stories, on Facebook, on Twitter and tag me and Jamie and let us both know what you thought. For the very first time, you can see the full video interview of my conversation with Jamie on my website, along with the full show notes from today's episode at drchatterjee.com forward slash Jamie Oliver. Don't forget my book, The Four Pillar Plan has just been released in the United States and Canada with a brand new title, How to Make Disease Disappear. And you can find a link for the book in the show notes. Guys, please do leave me

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