Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #165 How To Talk To Children About Race with Dr Pragya Agarwal

Episode Date: March 17, 2021

This conversation is about a really important topic - how we should talk about bias, discrimination and race. The advice is relevant for everyone, whether you have children or not but will be particularly helpful if you’ve ever felt confused or conflicted about how to talk to children about race. My guest is the brilliant Dr Pragya Agarwal, she’s a behavioural scientist, an academic, a journalist and an award-winning author, who has written widely on unconscious bias and prejudice, racial inequality, parenting and gender. Dr Agarwal’s most recent book Wish We Knew What To Say: Talking With Children About Race is a super-practical, readable manual for people of all backgrounds and ethnicities. I think many people want to get involved in the conversation around race and discrimination but can sometimes feel fearful and scared of saying the wrong thing. I had these common sentiments at the top of my mind when having this conversation with Dr Agarwal and I hope you will find this conversation non-judgmental and compassionate. We begin by talking about at what age it’s appropriate to bring up the subject of race with children – and why ignoring differences in race or skin my not be helpful if we want our children to thrive in a diverse, multi-cultural world. We also discuss the importance of proactively talking about race and privilege with your children no matter what your skin colour. In fact, research shows that when children witness racism, or even see it in the media, it can have adverse effects on their health and wellbeing – even if it’s not directed at them. Dr Agarwal and I share our own personal experiences of racism and why an open dialogue on these issues is vital. We talk about a wide range of related issues including, unpacking what bias really means, understanding where it comes from, and how to know what the right terminology is to use when it comes to race. I love how Pragya explains how we can help our children to stay comfortably curious but non-judgemental, how to teach them to recognise and address unfairness and how to discourage them from shame and guilt but promote empathy and allyship.   This episode is a hugely practical guide for anyone, of any skin colour, who wants to learn the methods, tools and vocabulary that we can use to talk about people’s differences. This really was a wonderful conversation and I hope that it will contribute towards a more equal and connected world. Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/165 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

The point of these conversations is not to create a divisive world because we want to remove divisions. We want equality. We want fair-mindedness. We want everybody to have the same opportunities no matter what. And I think for that we have to hear why some people are not having the same opportunities or they might have certain obstacles. And unless we hear that, how do we address it? And I think that's the crucial bit. We all are in this together. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. This week's conversation is about a really important topic and one that I honestly don't think gets spoken about enough within the health and wellness space. How should we talk about discrimination, bias and race, particularly with our children? Now to be really clear, this conversation is relevant to each and

every single one of us, whether we have children or not, because the themes within it are universal. But I do think it's going to be especially helpful for parents or teachers who have ever felt confused or conflicted about how to talk to children about race. My guest is the brilliant Dr. Pragya Agarwal. She's a behavioural scientist, an academic, a journalist, and an award-winning author who has written widely on unconscious bias, prejudice, racial inequality, parenting, and gender. And her most recent book, Wish We Knew What To Say, Talking With Children About Race, is a super practical, readable manual for people of all backgrounds and ethnicities. Now, I think many people actually want to get involved in the conversation around race and

discrimination, but can sometimes feel fearful and scared of saying the wrong thing. I had these common sentiments at the top of my mind when having this conversation with Pragya a few months back and we both tried really hard to make the conversation as inclusive, compassionate and non-judgmental as possible. We begin talking about at what age is it appropriate to bring up the subject of race with children and why ignoring differences in race or skin colour may not be helpful if we want our children to thrive in a diverse multicultural world. We also discussed the importance of proactively talking about race and privilege with our children no matter what their skin colour. In fact, research shows that when children witness racism or even see it in the media, when children witness racism or even see it in the media, it can have adverse effects on their health and well-being, even if it's not directed at them. Pragya and I both share our own personal

experiences of racism and why an open dialogue on these issues is vital. We also talk about a wide range of related issues, including unpacking what bias really means, understanding where it comes from, and how to know what the right terminology is to use when it comes to race. As a parent myself, I really love the way that Pragya explains how we can help our children stay comfortably curious, but non-judgmental. how to teach them to recognise and address unfairness, and how to discourage them from shame and guilt, and instead promote empathy and allyship. This episode really is a hugely practical guide for anyone of any skin colour who wants to learn the methods, tools, and vocabulary that we can use to talk about people's differences.

This really was a wonderful conversation, and my hope is that it contributes to a more equal and connected world. And now my conversation with the wonderful Pragya Agarwal. Pragya Agarwal. Now, I'm conscious that as we're having this conversation about bias, about race, about racism, and how it plays out in society, that you were born in India, I believe. I've got Indian heritage, both my parents were born in India, they came over here 1960s, 1970s. I was born and brought up in the UK. So I'm aware that we will probably bring, or certainly I will be bringing my own experience into this conversation. So let me expand upon that with my kids. And my wife is like myself, Indian origin, but born in this country. I don't feel at a young age I wanted to talk about race. I don't want to give it any visibility at all because I didn't want my kids to start seeing problems where

problems didn't exist. But I'm now starting to change my view having read your book. What would you say, because I think a lot of people do feel that way, and how would you come back to them? I can relate to that experience in some way. So I came here as a young single parent. I really just wanted to fit in. I didn't want to draw any attention to the fact that I was different in any way because there were enough differences. I was in a predominantly male environment as a young academic. I was also a single parent. And I just wanted to not draw attention to my skin color or my child to feel like they're any different. I talked a lot about feminism to her gender equality because growing up in India, that was really important to me. But I realized slowly that this

kind of colorblind approach is not the best way. Because even if when we are not drawing attention to it, that is still there. Because facial cues, skin color as a cue, people use that as a mark of categorization, as a mark of identification, as a mark of demarcation. That's how people make sense of this world. And that's the first cue that people have of people when you meet face-to-face. Children are also seeing this around them. They notice the skin color, the notice difference. They might not talk about it. They might not create any bias or prejudice around it, but they also pick up messages from media as they're growing older and from books about what is better and what is less, what is inferior. So these kind of hierarchies are forming in their brains from what they're seeing around them.

They're making assumptions and stereotypes of certain people based on these kind of skin color associations. If we don't talk to them, they will form their own view of the world, even if they don't say anything. They might have friends of all skin color, but they still have serious types that people of certain skin color behave like this or act like this. It is also possible that if we don't talk explicitly with our children, they might want to conform to the outside view. As they grow older, they want to have more associations with their peer group rather than their culture or their heritage. So they might actively try to dissociate from

their culture and heritage to want to fit in because they might feel a certain shame or they might feel certain discomfort around how they have to act at home or around their culture and heritage. in it so that they go out in the world and be secure individuals, but also be allies to other people who are not as secure or might face other kind of racial bullying. Children have something called transductive reasoning. So they make generalized assumptions. If they see one person of a certain skin color either being racialized or facing racism or acting in a certain way, they might assume that all people from that kind of race or ethnicity act in the same way. That is how they make sense of the world when they start off with. So essentially, what you're saying is, this is out there. Kids are going to see it. And if we don't proactively bring it up with our

children, they're going to draw their own conclusions. And those conclusions may potentially be problematic. Yes, absolutely. And if we don't help them or support them or question any assumptions they've made, how do we know that these assumptions have been made? And as they grow older, they can become deeply entrenched and ingrained before we have had a chance to address them. Children are not colorblind. So colorblind upbringing is really not the best approach. What we want to help our children see is that difference exists, but that difference should not be the basis for inequality in the world. They should also understand that there is some historic legacy

of oppression, which means certain people might be treated differently in this world than other people. And that should not be the case. American Association of Psychology and Pediatrics have actually shown by research that not only children who face racism or racial bullying, but children who are bystanders or who see this happening around them, it can have a huge detrimental effect to them as mental and physical well-being. So we need to support all children, no matter what culture, background or ethnicity. So does that research say that if somebody has suffered racism themselves, or if they have witnessed it, there's a negative impact on their health and well-being.

Absolutely. And that the Paediatric Association in America is actually doing more work around it from case studies, but also other scientific research that yes, witnessing racial bullying, even seeing it in media or even seeing this happening can really affect children's well-being. Yeah. I mean, that's fascinating because that really then starts to really build a very strong case that we should be talking about it with our kids. Because I guess if we don't, and we try and pretend it's not happening, and they witness it, they're going to have to deal with that emotion, probably the confusion in their minds, in their bodies, which can manifest in so many different ways as they get older. And you mentioned identity and feeling secure. And there's something about that that

really I felt when you said that, because I've touched on this a couple of times on the podcast before, but I definitely, definitely moved away from my Indian heritage and culture as a teenager in my 20s. You know, I think many immigrants will know the feeling. And I think your daughter, your eldest daughter, from my recollection of reading the books, I think she might have experienced something similar. But I felt very much, okay, mum and dad are bringing me up with a sort of Indian culture at home. At school, particularly at primary school, me and my brother were maybe the only non-white kids at school, I think. Maybe there's one more family. And you want to fit in. Yeah, I did go to a diverse school actually in my teenage years, but I still, I wanted to be like my white friends, right? So I

would almost issue, you almost have a double life. You live the life at home and you're doing the things the way you're being brought up at home and you live another life outside home. Now, maybe all teenagers do that to a certain degree. I don't know, but I know that that has caused me major problems in my life. Whereas now, I really embrace my Indian heritage. I'm so proud of it. Yeah, and I can relate so much to that. Even though I didn't, I wasn't born here or brought up here. I came here very early 20s. But I was rejecting some of my heritage still because I wanted to fit in and some of the toxic elements of Indian-ness or

patriarchy. And I wanted to really reject that. But also there was this internalized, I think, racism or racialization. If you grew up in India, you face culturism. You also have this inherent kind of legacy of imperialism, which makes you feel like certain things here are much better, or certain things about India are not as good. You feel uncomfortable talking about your food in a way or talking about your culture, because there's almost a shame certain sometimes associated with maybe it's not as good, maybe people will make fun of it. I know my teenager, my child, she was very young when she moved here, but she had done Indian classical dance while in India growing up. And she rejected that. She didn't want to do Indian classical dance anymore. She just wanted to be like people here only read in English or speak in English. She forgot everything, how to say anything in Hindi, or we didn't speak Hindi at home because that just didn't happen. And I think, yes, over the years, I've realized how much that is really crucial to my sense of identity,

but also her sense of identity. And now I have mixed heritage children who my husband's white, Scottish, and I am from India. And that becomes even more crucial for me that they relate to their Indian part of their culture and heritage. And how do I do that in a way that is comfortable and confident to them so that they know that they're part Indian, they know that that's a really important part of their identity. And I think it is so crucial for children to grow up with this really secure sense. Otherwise, as you say, the code switch, which is being something else at home and being something else outside, and that causes confusion and conflict. And that can be

really, yes, it's quite troublesome, I think, as they grow older. I mean, if we look at it from a different perspective, if someone listening to this has got white skin, and their partner, if they have a partner, has white skin, and their kids have got white skin and their partner if they have a partner has white skin and their kids have got white skin why should they have this conversation with their kids what is the onus on them to have it yeah i think that's something that it becomes tricky because often people of color have to start this conversation at a young age because they know they have this weight as a parent to the responsibility that they want their children to not face anything when they go outside. They worry about it. They're anxious about it sometimes.

We live in a world where, of course, white people or white parents might not have those anxieties because that is the predominant culture that we are living in. But as we talked about the research from American Association of Pediatrics or other research that's shown, children even who see bullying or racism, witness it, can also have an effect on their mental and physical well-being. can also have an effect on their mental and physical well-being. So that is one reason for the child's mental well-being, so that if they see something like that, they understand why this is happening, why some people are treated differently. It might happen to their friend as well, because they might go to a school where they have friends from different cultures. But also, all of us have to speak to our children about privilege and power because we all have privileges. Our children are being brought up with certain privileges, intersectionality of privilege. It could be race, it could be gender, it could be class, caste, education.

White privilege exists, which means that white children are protected from certain things in terms of racism. And I think it's important to speak to them about how to leverage that privilege to be an ally, to support other children who might not have that privilege, who might face racism or racial bullying. Also, if we want to create a fair-minded, equal world, we want the cycle to stop somewhere, which means that we want our children to understand that they cannot perpetuate or in any way this cycle or continue this cycle in the future. And how do we do that? We can only do that if we start from a young age to make them aware that they have the power to create an equal world. They have the opportunity to create

a more fair-minded equal world, which means that they have to treat people in an equal and fair-minded way. Yeah, so much to think about. I think it's such an important topic. And I think until, certainly for me, until I read your latest book, you know, just to see it written down, see a language, see a vocabulary around it, see the different ages and the recommendations you make for different ages. It was so useful. I always want to be honest and share things on this show to really try and connect with people. And, you know, I don't think I've spoken about this, but last year, so my kids are at a local school and there was a speaking festival. I won't say which one it was. Most people attending were, they have white skin. And in my daughter's age category, I think there were

six, no, there were six people competing for this. Competing, you know, it's just, it's to help kids, you know, speak in public and perform. And okay, so you've got to try and take out the biased dad part of this. So six people go up on stage and perform. Now, my daughter was genuinely excellent. Now, I'm a dad, so you would say, yeah, okay, of course you're biased, and yeah, I probably am biased towards my daughter and my kids, right, naturally, like many parents are, but she was placed last, and what was really interesting is that there was shock in the room. And actually, many of the parents came up to my wife afterwards and saying, oh man, she was absolutely brilliant. I don't quite understand that. And

the point is, it caused real conflict for my wife and I, and I'm sure my daughter picked up on that because the judge was probably mid-70s, an elderly lady with white skin who I think had been judging for years. I genuinely can't see how my daughter came sixth. It's not about where she came because it's about just expressing who she is, but she was confused. We thought she'd be first or second. Not that we actually value that much stuff anyway. We really don't. But it's like then we were like, well, how do we say this? What do we say? I don't know that was racism. I can't say that for sure. And that's where this whole topic gets very tricky. Then you start to second guess yourself and you go, oh, it could have been something else. Of course it could have been

something else. But I guess I will put my baggage from my upbringing and what I've experienced or perceived to have experienced over my 40-ish years on this planet. And I genuinely feel, as my wife does, that there was a racial element there. Now, I can't prove it. I was going to write to the festival and really compassionately and just express some concerns. And then I can't remember why I didn't. I think lockdown started. And you know, we get busy. And then I would think afterwards, should I have? I mean, then, because you could argue, I have been silent.

I've allowed that without challenge to continue. And so I have a conflict in my head. Should I have done something different as a parent when I can't prove it? And then what do I say to my daughter? difficult. And that is one of the ways this kind of manifests. It's a form of kind of microaggression because you don't know whether what you're feeling is valid enough or not, and whether if you say anything, you would feel like you're overreacting or others would feel like you're overreacting. And I suppose one of the reasons parents often don't say anything also is because already there is a bias.

There's a perceived bias from parents that people feel that parents are going to be biased. You don't want to be one of those tiger parents who are kind of trying to go ahead and do it. But I can see from the situation which my older child, because she played violin in a number of festivals, we know that how that manifests. It is an implicit bias that the judge could have carried. I think on the issue of being silent, I think it is, again, very difficult. Yes, we do get busy. There have been situations when I wanted to write letters and I just think, oh, I'll just let again, very difficult. Yes, we do get busy. There have been situations when I wanted to write letters and I just think, oh, I'll just let it go this time because it's exhausting,

you know, to have to tackle these things again and again and again. A lot of emotional energy in your body and your mind to actually, should I do it? Should I not? What will they think? Am I causing a problem? Am I raising an issue when there isn't one? Will she then be discriminated against next time? Because we've already, you know, made these things go round your head. And that is exhausting. And I think that people don't realize how parenthood as parenting children of color or being a parent of color is exhausting because you're carrying these emotions.

If you're constantly wondering whether your child is treated differently. And that is not kind of because you're an anxious parent, but you don't want your children to face these kind of issues at school. was black and she was talking about how she had to take her child and put her into a private school because she felt that was a safer environment for her, even if it's not diverse, because they were more vocal about these issues. And schools try and cover this up. It's difficult to talk to your child because you don't want them to feel like a victim. And I think that is something we worry about as parents as well. And I think how do we talk to our children in a way that we don't want them to feel like a victim or an oppressor? So depending on what context it is. is bias involved that people have certain stereotypes that people carry bring these biases into decision making that even though they're supposed to be objective not everybody's objective and they might judge people differently and that it's one person's perspective that's pretty much how we handled it actually we um That's what we said. And also really focused with

her on how do you feel it went? Yeah, daddy, I thought I really enjoyed it. I said, okay, you're happy with the account of yourself? You go, yeah. I said, well, that's good. Focus on that because ultimately all these things are opinions and you're going to get a lot of opinions in life. Some opinions will be what you like, some you don't, but it's just one person's opinion. And that doesn't change who you are. It doesn't change how you feel about your performance. And frankly, that's a lesson I'm still learning in my early forties. And I think what you said there about you're second guessing and, you know, I agree. I think many people, unless you've experienced it, probably don't get it. So I was chatting this morning with Gareth, who's sitting here videoing the show. And it's really interesting. We were talking about this idea of shame. So I spoke to the guy called Vivek Murthy,

the former Surgeon General under Obama in America on the podcast back in June. And I shared something publicly for the first time, which is I had an uncomfortable experience just before my second book was published, The Stress Solution, when I was in a meeting at Penguin. And they were talking about the plans for publication. And they said, wrong and look, you know, things are, you know, really good news for this book. We've got really good distribution. Lots of the retailers are taking the book this time like they weren't for your first book. And one major retailer in particular has agreed to stock the book. They wouldn't take your first book because they already had a book out by an Indian doctor on the shelves.

And what I shared about it was that I heard it, I felt uncomfortable, and then I buried it because I didn't know what else to do and no one else said anything. So we just went on with the meeting. But I remember, I remember getting on the train home afterwards and thinking about it and listening to a podcast and something I was listening to where the sentiment was basically, something I was listening to, where the sentiment was basically, you know, make yourself so good that you can't be ignored, was what someone was saying. And I didn't necessarily think of it like that, but I remember absorbing it and going, you know what? I'm going to keep writing great books, or as good as I can make, and so you've got no option but to stock my books. And actually now, as probably the biggest selling health author in the country, they to stock my books. And actually now as probably the biggest

selling health author in the country, they all stock my books. But that's not a healthy emotion. That's not a nice way to feel because there is shame. And what Gareth was saying this morning when I was chatting to him, he says, explain that to me. Where does the shame come from? Because I don't get that. Is that something you feel needs to be brought up in this conversation? And what is your view on that? Yeah, I can relate to that. And I think I have become more vocal about talking about these issues now. But for a long time, I tried to not talk about my failures, perhaps, or anything I felt like that, because I felt like I had to prove myself,

like I had to work 10 times as hard to be as visible and as taken as seriously than anybody anybody who is not a young brown woman. And I feel like people of color have this feeling like there is not much space for them. And I think through implicit attitudes and beliefs, they're made to feel aware that there's only space for one or two of us in anywhere. And so we have to fight for that space. And I think that also creates competition amongst sometimes people of minority ethnic communities, because they know that there's only one or two, we have to be best and we have to compete against each other to get that one seat at the table. But we also have to work 10 times as hard to prove ourselves. We can't show

vulnerability, we can't show weakness, because we don't have the luxury to. We just don't have the luxury to. I think that maybe there is that cultural element to it because, of course, our parents knew that we had to work 10 times as hard to be taken seriously. We don't talk about failure. That shame comes from that as well. We have to be successful and we start associating our measure of our validity

and our worth through how people perceive us, I think. And that is something that is just toxic for any human being. When you get your value from what other people say about you, I think it can lead to a perception of happiness for a little while. But once you sort of scratch beneath the surface, there's a lot of emptiness on the other side of that, I think. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show.

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That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. Live more. Yeah, and I think that is also because of the power hierarchies in the society about whose opinion do we value, whose opinion matters, you know. There is a certain notion of white supremacy in it about which people are the gatekeepers, which people are deciding who's worth listening to, whose books are worth stalking, whose books are worth putting, promoting, you know, all those things. So yes, it is because of the racialized power hierarchies in society. It's about who has the privilege to be like that. How many seats are there? Why can't we create a bigger table and put

more seats at it rather than just having one seat? I know that when I was applying to agents, submitting to agents, somebody told me, I already have an Indian author on my books. And I was like, all Indians are not the same. I'm writing about different things. Even if when we talk about inclusivity and diversity, it's so box-ticking, it's so performative that there's only space for one of us on that table. So I think, yes, I think that's where all these feelings come from. But by talking about it, that's how we get change, right? Because the incident I'm talking about only happened two years ago, right? And I want to share that again,

because I want people to know that it doesn't matter where you are in life or what your perception of success is it's still going on it's still happening now actually I have addressed it now I wrote a I'm really proud of the letter that I wrote to the sort of my boss at Penguin as it were or not boss or not boss, but the most senior person I'm in contact with there. And they were amazing. But what I did is I made sure my emotions, I'd made sure that my anger and judgment, and that was all processed. And I wrote a calm, rational letter sticking to the facts, not dealing with emotion. And I genuinely feel that the way I wrote that letter has actually contributed to the impact that it's had because

they were great. Everyone who was at that meeting contacted me separately. A few people sent me a WhatsApp message saying, Ranga, you know what? I still remember that happening. I felt uncomfortable and I didn't feel I could say anything either. And so it's really interesting. Everyone remembered that moment, but nobody said anything. Now, everyone in that room are great people. I get on really well with them. They're fantastic at their job. I have nothing but positive things to say about them. So what's going on here where people are respectful. No one in that room would call themselves racist. I don't think any of them are. Okay. I would not call myself racist, yet no one spoke up, including myself. Why is that? Is it so ingrained in us that we just don't feel we can? It's just the way it is.

Yeah. It's just the way it is. That's how we accept it, because we just think that's the way it is. We just have to get over it. We just have to deal with it. And I think there is a lot of discomfort talking about these things. I don't want to be the person who says something in case I'm wrong. I don't want to be the one creating a fuss. I don't want to be coming across as ungrateful. I think there is also a sense of gratitude and gratefulness sometimes to be accepted into some of the spaces that we think we don't belong to or we are not worthy enough to be in that space. Maybe there's a sense of imposter syndrome that we all carry that, am I really good enough? But they've created space for me. They brought me into this space. I should be grateful that this is happening to me. And not ruffle any feathers. Yeah, totally. But I can tell you this, if that happened to me now, I would be completely different. I wouldn't get angry.

I would just calmly say, just hold on a second. Let's just go back over that. So what was going on there? So what happened? Explain to me what happened? Which retailer said they wouldn't stock my books because I'm Indian? Come on, let's talk about it. But do you know why I would say it now? Because I've been having these conversations on my podcast with esteemed people like yourself, having these conversations, raising them up, processing my own baggage that I've picked up over 30, 40 years of not talking about it. And now I go, no, you know what? I feel secure in who I am. I'm going to say it. So that's why I think books like yours, raising visibility of this is just so important. And it's important for people like you to share these experiences,

because I think when you voice these concerns, then people who might not be as established can also see this happening to themselves and feel that they're justified in questioning it. And I think it's important that we're having these conversations because now openly people are questioning these implicit racism that exists in so many of our domains that we think are very fair minded and egalitarian. We recently talked about openly about the advances that people get. And we saw disparities in authors of color and white authors. And even at the same stage of their career, they were getting hugely different publishing advances and contracts. We are seeing how very few people of

colour are in publishing domain. And that makes a difference. If you are the only Indian author in a room full of white people, then how are you going to feel confident to even question something like that, whatever stage of your career you are at? So I think that's why we need more people in every domain as well. Yeah. It's funny this morning, I was thinking, okay, Dot Saigal is going to be here shortly. Let me just have a quick flip. And I thought, oh, let me just have a look how things have changed. I looked in the Apple podcast charts in the UK. I looked at the top 50 and I thought, how many non-white hosts are there? This podcast is currently, I think, number 14 or 15 in all uk podcasts michelle

obama's one is i think about 35 36 and i say every other host was white person was white what would you say to that i mean is that because we have less talent and therefore only 48 out of the top UK 50 podcasts in terms of most listened to are hosted by white people because they're better and more able to articulate messages in podcasts? Or is it something else? Gosh, there would be so many issues with it, isn't it? I mean, so many things. First of all, I suppose who feels confident enough to put themselves forward and say that they have a story worth telling or that they have a voice that people are going to listen to. Secondly, I suppose, there's also about representation. If people don't see people like them doing a podcast, then they might think nobody's

going to be interested in my podcast, so they might not put themselves forward. It might be because of confirmation or affinity bias that people only listen to people who are more like them or who think that they're going to relate more to. So if there are more white people listening to it, then maybe they will listen to people like them. It also could be because of who gets promoted, who gets more visibility, who is considered more marketable. We know, I mean, if you relate the same thing to books, we know that the kind of books that get commissioned sometimes are because there's an assumption about what the readership is and what they'll be interested in. So even if certain people of color get promoted, it's because they're talking about immigration

or they're talking about something that they think a white audience would be interested in from that perspective. So they're pushed into a box. They can't just go into a podcast and talk about a dog because that's not what people of color do and are supposed to do. So I suppose there are all these stereotypes and biases that come into play. And yeah, exactly. We don't hear a multitude of stories. It is all whitewash. So we only think these stories are worth telling, these stories are worth listening to. We know that social media

algorithms are also biased. They promote certain people. We saw that certain black and brown commentators on social media, especially Instagram, don't get as much visibility as white commentators. We also exist in echo chambers, so people are talking. We only listen or read sometimes books or listen to podcasts that other people are talking about. So if our communities like that,

and they're only promoting certain things or talking about certain things, we want to listen to that. And people stay in these echo chambers and they never break out them. So those podcasts or those books don't never get to the kind of bestselling charts because they, even if they are as good as them. So I think it's such a, so many myriad of things, just so many things that come into play in this. But I think for a child, I suppose it's so important for them to understand that their stories are worth telling, that their voice matters, no matter what background or culture. We give them that confidence as they're growing up, that they see representation.

I think that's why we talk about diversity in books. We talk about diversity in media, that they see representation. I think that's why we talk about diversity in books, we talk about diversity in media, that they see representation as well. Yeah. What we're talking about really is bias. So now might be a good time to sort of define what is bias and then sort of maybe sort of dive into how that bias shows up when it comes to race. So bias is something, just a preference for some things. So we're talking about just now as a parental bias, and that's a positive bias because all of us want to think our children are the best and that's kind of an evolutionary thing. Otherwise, how would we deal with some of the most difficult situations that we are in as a parent when we are completely exhausted. So that's a positive bias. There are positive biases, like we feel certain

affinity to people who go to the same university, who support the same football team, those kind of things, because we want to build our communities. Everybody wants to feel belonging, a sense of belonging. But when this bias turns into prejudice or negative discrimination against a certain group because they are not part of our in-group, they are different, they're treated as othered, or they are not considered as good as somebody else, then that is toxic. That's harmful in our society. Bias has different layers. So there's individual biases that we all carry, which are formed because of certain templates or stereotypes we built into our brain. There could be interpersonal bias because of our individual

biases. We discriminate against somebody or we prejudice against somebody. But because of the historic and legacy and the nature of oppression that's carried through because of slavery or other forms of oppression, there are certain societal or systemic or structural biases that are built into it, which means that there are hierarchies of power, of who has more power than others. are kind of a vicious cycle because our individual biases feed into the systemic and structural biases and our systemic and structural biases reinforce our individual biases. So race is such a prominent example of it because race is a social construct. Race doesn't really, has no biological basis to it. We have all shared 99.9% similar genes. There's less diversity in humans than fruit flies, you know. But it was built as a construct because people wanted to justify in the past that they could oppress

certain people. They could say certain people with certain biology or certain skin color are less intelligent, less able to manage themselves so we can go in and manage them or oppress them. less able to manage themselves so we can go in and manage them or oppress them. And we are more intelligent. So I think that's why it was constructed. Race might be a social construct, but its manifestation as racism is very real. So its effects are very real. Because of the notion of race and racialization, which means these racialized hierarchies were built, there is certain still a notion of who has more power. So this kind of white supremacy we talk about, that people have this belief that whiteness is better in some way.

We know from research that children as young as three years old start believing that fair skin is better, or they choose white or fair skin dolls over black dolls, children of all background and ethnicity, because that's what they see around them. What's interesting about that for me is you say people and children of all ethnicities will choose the white doll, not just the children with white skin. Yeah, because that's what they're seeing around them. Because the way that white supremacy or whiteness permeates a society, they see more white people in books. They see more white skin people in films or media or cartoons.

white-skinned people in films or media or cartoons. They also see that blonde hair, white skin is a princess and people with dark skin, dark hair is a witch. That's how a lot of films are designed or our books are designed. That's Disney's MO, right? Yeah, absolutely. So my four-year-old, when she was a year ago, she came back from nursery and still she wants to be Elsa because she's seed frozen and she wants to have blonde hair. And she's like, I don't like dark hair because blonde hair is better because she goes to a school where everybody has fair skin and blonde hair and she's the only child with dark skin and dark hair. And I have to address it right there and then rather than thinking of it as a childish fantasy, because for me, it's really important for her to take pride in what she is and who she is, because that's where

it starts happening, that they start getting body image issues. What can you really do about that? Because let's say your daughter at four says, I want to be Elsa. Okay, which is completely understandable in her head. Of course, I've just seen this wonderful, epic film. Yeah, in her head, of course, I've just seen this wonderful, epic film. Yeah, I want to be Elsa, right? In her head, that makes complete sense. So as her mother, you can bring that up and try to have that conversation with her. But does it make a difference? Because that's, well, of course, I'd love to know what you would say about that. But if we're trying to use rational argument to explain something, but then she still goes back out into a world where that is what she's getting fed, there's a conflict, isn't there? It's not enough for me to just say it right there. Oh no, your dark skin is beautiful or your black hair is beautiful.

That's not enough. I have to reinforce this again and again and again because she's getting this message again and again outside. So this work cannot be done just when Black Lives Matter protest is happening or just when a child sees a murder of a black man on television or newspaper. It has to happen every day what was really striking in the book is at some point can't remember where you say well i noticed you very much focus on early years and you say by nine years old children's views are fixed and And I paused when I read that and I thought about it. I thought,

oh no, my son's 10, my daughter's nearly there. But then I thought, okay, this is really, really interesting. I mean, you do recognise that there's an individuality with children and they all develop at different weights and at different ages, which I thought was a really lovely part to read. But you're really making the case that we need to start way earlier than nine, right? Now, how early do you think we should start? And do you think that answer is different if you have a child with brown skin, with black skin, or with white skin? If you'd asked me this question a few years ago, maybe I would have said something different. But I think now, as I'm reading more scientific research, also based on my personal experience, but also talking to lots of diverse parents,

I realized that although it is different, black and brown parents start talking to their children much earlier. At least black parents do, I know. I think we have to address racism within South Asian community in a different way, I think, the way that it manifests. But black parents have to start talking to their children much, much younger because they, about how black boys are treated. We know that in schools, black and often brown children are penalized and punished more for the same kind of demeanors. But I think this has to happen for all children because we are linking it to how their sense of identity is formed, how their own notion of their self,

but also other people's selves are formed. So it's not just a responsibility of white parent to do that or for brown and black parent, but for every parent, because it has to happen from a young age in the way that we unlearn our biases as parents, first of all, because we all carry stereotypes and biases. And children are like sponges when they're young. They're picking up all these implicit messages. They're looking at us, our facial expressions, the way we talk about certain people, the offhand remarks, the books that we bring into our house,

the media that we are bringing into our house, the things we are talking about, how we're treating other people. Am I crossing the road when I'm seeing somebody coming towards me because I'm feeling fearful? They're picking up these cues and they become similarly fearful of people of certain skin color if they see their parent doing that.

So I think at a young age, very young age, what we have to do as parents is to unlearn our biases and to make sure that we are bringing in diverse books and media. We are exposing them to it. We are picking up on any of these assumptions very young at very early on and questioning it and challenging these stereotypes in our children from a young age yeah as i shared before my bias has always been not talk about it pretend it's not there um very much i absorbed my dad's modus operandi which which was very much, I think, very typical, certainly in the 60s and 70s of Indian immigrants coming over to the UK. I'm sort of very familiar with that, particularly with doctors, because that's what I grew up around. It's very much, keep your head down, don't say anything, just don't make a fuss, make sure you're top of the class, because if you're top of the

class, you're going to succeed in life., because if you're top of the class, you're going to succeed in life. That was literally my upbringing. It's like, you know, if you come second, it's like, well, hold on, why didn't you come first? And that came from love, right? That came from a desire that, hey, we don't want you guys to go through what we're going through. And the way we can try and ensure that doesn't happen is by, you know, if you're top of the class, if you go to the best universities, if you get the best jobs, actually, you're going to be fine in life. And I do like with many things. If I was having kids now, fresh, I'd probably do things a little bit different. But I'm sure many parents are like that.

You know, once you know better, you do better. But my wife shared something with me this morning over breakfast. She said, when my daughter was four, she had taken her swimming. My son might've been swimming and they were watching. And she said to my wife, mommy, is that another brown, is that little girl got brown skin like me? And she said, yeah. And I can't remember how she said it, but she noticed it. She said, oh, it's sometimes lonely being the only one with my sort of skin. It broke my heart hearing that.

But then the point of that is this is real. As you said right at the start kids are noticing this whether we say it or not if we don't bring it up they can draw their own conclusions yeah it's heartbreaking isn't it and i can relate so much to that about being the best so that nobody will ever question you so that you will always have the space and i think i was brought up like being the girl, so that there was a whole session of patriarchy that you have to be the best because you're a girl, you have to prove yourself. But then we moved here and my older daughter, yes, that's how I was bringing her up. I wanted her to be the best. She went to schools where she was often the only brown child. She went to orchestras and national ensembles where

she was the only brown person. She went to Cambridgeras and national ensembles where she was the only brown person. She went to Cambridge where in a college, chose a college, which was not diverse. So she was one of the very few brown people there. And for her, she wanted to also pretend race doesn't exist. So it doesn't matter if it's not diverse. Why, how does it matter? I'm going to be one of the best. So it doesn't really matter. But I think no matter how you're seeing yourself, you're still being seen as, and these barriers are there. These barriers will always be there. So I suppose every child wants to feel a sense of belonging that there are other people like them. So I remember I took her to a conference in Stanford once. She was presenting a poster. And suddenly there were all these children of Indian

origin there as they are at these things. But it was California and these parents of Indian parents. And suddenly my child saw these people who are like her, who shared some of the similar things that they were facing at home with their parents. She could talk to them about similar things. And suddenly for the first time, she felt really secure in who she was, not ashamed or embarrassed of being what she was. And I think that was really a striking moment for me as well to realize how much we need these communities,

how much we need representation, how much our children need role models sometimes as well to see other people out there talking about these things like them. You're right, people need role models sometimes as well to see other people out there talking about these things like them? You're right. People need role models. If someone's listening to this, right, and they go, okay, I get what you're saying. Let's say it's a family with white skin. And their child, at their school, there's only one Asian kid or one kid with black skin.

Is there anything they can do to help? I think it's really important that we don't, again, tokenize this kind of being an ally. We shouldn't really tell our children that they have to actively choose a particular person as a friend just because of their skin color. You know, it's important that we say that they don't have the white savior complex, that they're going to go and rescue this person because they're brown or black. They might not need rescuing, you know. They're probably really confident and they might not need a white friend to come and rescue them. But I think it's important we create opportunities for our children where they can interact with other children from other backgrounds and cultures of all sorts so that they know that a person with brown skin or a black skin doesn't necessarily act in a certain way,

that they not just wear a sari or celebrate Diwali or they are fighting for their rights, or opposing slavery or oppression, but they are doing just normal things every day as well, you know. It's really important for white children to understand that, that they are like everybody else, like people are just doing normal things, no matter what their skin color. But if they see somebody being treated differently because of their skin color, a child should be able to acknowledge that, understand why it's happening, be able to talk about it at home so that they can create an environment where the child can come and say, I've noticed this. Why do you think this is happening? And have a conversation around it, not feel awkward and uncomfortable about it. But also depending on the age, a child can be an ally. So if they see something happening, they can either tell a parent or a teacher that this is happening.

If they see a child being lonely because of their skin color or isolated, they can create an opportunity to go and talk to them and sit close to them and empathize with them. I think it's really important that children learn the value of allyship from a young age as well. Yeah. What your book does really well, it does many things well, but it gives voice to this as an issue. It raises visibility. It brings it out of the dark and into the light. It gives people a vocabulary, a structure to actually start having these conversations, which is, I think, one of the missing pieces that's been, we can raise awareness. We can

talk about it on social media, but actually people need help, right? Many of us need help. people need help, right? Many of us need help. So, you know, for example, let's say someone's listening to this. And again, let's say it's because I feel very conscious that it's, as I said at the start, I'm aware that we've both got brown skin, right? Coming into this conversation. And I want to make sure that it's inclusive to everyone because the way we create a fairer world is not by putting people off the topic. It's by getting people to go, yeah, I want to be involved. I want to help create that fairer, that equal world. But I know many parents feel uncomfortable. So if it's, let's say it's a family with white skin, and let's say their child comes back and goes, mummy or daddy, why is two of my friends,

why have they got a different colour skin to me? Have you got any advice on how they can navigate that if they feel discomfort? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. the Thrive Tour, be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that

actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision-making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviors into long-term habits, and improve our relationships.

There are, of course, many different ways to journal. And as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel.

Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal, or click on the link in your podcast app. Yeah, I think as parents, we have to question our own discomfort. So as I say, I think every parent has to start this work from before they become parents, but certainly after they become parents, to start reflecting on their own biases.

Why do you feel discomfort around this topic? It's like anything else, you know, race is racism or race or our skin color is part of who we are. Why is there discomfort around it? Is it because you don't have the right vocabulary? Then I suppose it's important that as parents, we learn the right terms and vocabulary and understand it ourselves so that we can talk to our children about it. Also, as parents, it's important to understand and acknowledge we don't know the answers to everything. You know, we can pretend, but we don't.

So depending on the age, I think we can learn it around our own children. We can say, let's find it out ourselves together. There's so many resources out there. I actually don't know that myself, but let's do the work together. Let's find it out. And I think that it's really important for children to see that our parents don't know anything, but we can still do the work to find out everything. We don't know the answers to everything. where we live. And a child pointed at me in the library and said, mommy, she's got brown skin, that lady. And her mother got really uncomfortable and pulled her away and said, shh. And I thought that was a really nice teachable moment where she could have said, oh, yes, all of us have

different colored skin or like we have different color eyes, like we have different colored hair. That's what makes us unique. And she could have engaged with me or there are so many books now we can look at and say, look, everybody's unique. Everybody's different. And that's what makes us really special. That's such a wonderful example because I've also experienced similar things to that. And it's amazing the discomfort in the parents.

Like so many people will know this, you know, know when they're in the lift with a child and the child just says something, which like, oh, have they just said that? Right. But, but why should a child not say that? That's perfectly legitimate. But I guess then the onus is on us as parents to not shy away and go, oh, I'm so uncomfortable that my child has said that. I don't want, I'm going to pretend it hasn't happened, which again, the child's going to pick up on. it hasn't happened, which the child's going to pick up on, it's actually leaning into it, isn't it? Saying, hey, you know, that's an amazing observation. You're right. You know, when we look around, can we see anyone else who's got different colour skin? You know, you're right. It's a teachable moment. Yeah. And children do stare. Children are curious. And I think, as you said, children pick up on our discomfort and they're watching us to see how are we going to react. And I also shared another experience. We were coming back from India. We were sitting on Heathrow in a restaurant.

And there was a Chinese-American family sitting right next to us, very close. And they had small children. And my then two-year-old kept staring at them because she hadn't seen anybody with the same kind of facial features or anybody who looked like that because we don't live in a very diverse area. And I think she was watching us to see how we would react. Are we comfortable around them? And are we talking normally to them? What are we doing? So that because children at that age are fearful of unfamiliarity. At that age, it isn't bias or prejudice, but it will turn into it if we let it to turn into it. At that stage, they're only afraid of something that's unfamiliar. They're curious of things that are

unfamiliar. So I think it's up to us to how to create the sense of comfort around these topics. I mean, that raises the question for me, is bias not an essential part of being human? Is it not something we've always used to keep us safe, to make sure we stick in our tribe? And if it is, then are we actually trying to fight our innate human nature? Yes. Some of it is correct because as I said in Sway, there is an evolutionary basis to how we created in-group and out-group. In a very, very distant past, our ancestors wanted to feel safe. They hadn't built immunity to a lot of diseases.

There were limited resources. They were fighting for these limited resources. So yes, there is a certain amount of primal instinct to stick with people who we feel we are comfortable with, who are like us. And we create these in-group and out-group mentalities in real life, but also in social media. We create these bubbles. We only relate to people who share the same views.

And because there's less cognitive resource used up or cognitive load used up in trying to contradict what we already believe in rather than just look for facts that confirm our existing views. That's easier for us. But we are in a different world. We are not competing for the same kind of resources. We are not in the same kind of challenges like we were in very, very distant past. And I think now we are seeing that these biases can have very toxic and very harmful effects. We're seeing how these feelings of fear and threat of outsiders can be tapped into by politicians, by media to create the divides and deepen these divides. And when we do that, then we are really setting a walls where none exist, I think.

Yeah, I think you made that point so brilliantly. And I think, I always think of the phrase, you know, be the change you want to see in the world. I'm really conscious of how I put information out into the world. You know, I try my best to come from a place of compassion, non-judgmentalness, love, Because I think if I want that world for my kids to grow up in, and frankly, for me to inhabit, I've got to do that bit in my part of the world. And so there's a wider point that if we don't, as parents, engage with this, on some level, we're actually contributing to inequality and many of these kind of divisive problems that currently exist in society. Absolutely, so much. And I think as parents, we are so responsible for the world we create for

our children. And these are the people who are going to grow up and going to inherit, but also these are the people we can empower to create change as well. And I have so much hope for the next generation because we're seeing that they, I see with my children, with my daughter, they're so much more responsible and socially conscious and more fair-minded already. But we can really, really support them in knowing how to create change as well and why they should create change as well. We know that the pressures children are facing from social media, from their internet, as we are all doing distance learning and working from home so much. We know people get radicalized on the internet. We know that they're seeing so much divisive opinions and views out there that

children are susceptible to believing. So unless we have these honest and open conversations at home, how are we countering those pressures that our children are facing from the outside world? You mentioned online learning. And before the summer, when schools were closed closed and the UK was in lockdown, an interesting thing happened. So my kids were very fortunate that their school put an online curriculum together. And so they were doing this curriculum, I think it was on Google Classroom. And, you know, occasionally, you know, someone would post something and everyone would jump on and get involved and there'd be these long threads.

Now, the headmaster's really, I've always been impressed with the headmaster. He's incredible. He's very interested. He actually grew up in Liverpool, which is obviously where you live. And he's always struck me as someone who really values fairness and equality. And not long after the George Floyd murder that's obviously sent shockwaves around the world, he posted a photo. I can't remember what it was, but he posted something on Google Classroom about equality and about not discriminating against race. And it was really interesting.

Hardly anyone commented. My two commented, and I think one other child from mixed race background commented. Right? And I remember it because my wife and I had a conversation about it. I'm thinking, this is interesting, isn't it? Why is it on every other thread, everyone's getting involved and putting in their, giving emojis and whatever. But on that one, deathly silence. And I think this speaks to one of the main hurdles that we've got to overcome, which is this discomfort, right? So people move away and don't want to engage. And I think that's one of the biggest obstacles to this entire movement is how do you get people who don't necessarily feel it's relevant to them, how do you get them to engage? Yes. And I think that's such a kind of a poignant example. I think a really powerful

example because I think for a long time, race and racism has been considered a problem of people who face it, or people of color, they're talking about race and racism. It's not a problem of people with white skin or white people because they don't encounter it in predominantly white societies. And unless children have had these open conversations at home how do they know how to react to these things again they might think it's not my problem it's only aimed at people who are got darker skin or who are from brown and black backgrounds it's targeted at them it's aimed at it's nothing to do with me because i'm white i think the way sometimes also there is a feeling that there's a white guilt associated with it as well, where parents don't talk about it. I saw that a lot around Black Lives Matter. Suddenly,

that was manifesting in everybody trying to get reading lists and trying to talk to the children, I need to do this work now. We've been talking about it for a very long time. Why is this work suddenly happens when a black man is killed in the street? It's a good time to do it, but why is this work not happening all the time? There's a white guilt associated with it that, oh, because there is a talk about black or brown people facing racism, am I part of this in some way because I've got white skin? And that discomfort also comes from that feeling of guilt. I think that is why these discussions have to happen in a way that don't make any specific

individual as a victim or an oppressor. I think it's important for children to know just because I've got white skin doesn't mean that I have to act in the same way or I do act in the same way. Or just because I've got brown and black skin, I will always be treated in the same way. I think that is also a nuance that we need to focus on in these conversations. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the guilt. Because ultimately what's happening there, you know, whenever we feel a discomfort, often it's just a mirror being shone back on us that we've got something that we haven't processed ourselves. And I think, I mean, you know, I wanted to talk to you about terminology

because we live in a very politically correct world where the way we say things is really important. So a term you've used during this conversation is people of colour. Are you a fan of the term? I'm not a fond of, I'm not fond of any term, but I'm not fond of BAME either. Don't get me started on that term. I've got to be honest, like, I don't know the history of that term. I can't stand it. I don't resonate with it. I'm like, what BAME, black and minority? I mean, I just I, there's no part of that that speaks to me. I don't think we have the right vocabulary for it. Because ultimately, because we are talking about white and non white, I don't like non white, because it's centering whiteness. It's saying white

is the major thing that we're talking about and everybody else is non-white. So I don't like non-white either. I suppose people of color is used a lot in the US, not in the UK. I talk about it or I use it because it is demarcating a skin color, I suppose.

And I think that's why I prefer it to BME or non-white. I use minority ethnic communities usually because it's about saying everybody has an ethnicity, but we are talking about the people who are in the minority in it. It's hard because, again, when we talk about discomfort, if we get the term wrong, man, particularly these days with cancel culture and all sorts of things, you know, you can be eaten alive, particularly, I will say this, particularly if you've got white skin and you use the wrong term, man, you will probably never venture into that topic again. Because you're like, what's, you know, I try to engage, but people say, you've got to do the work, you've

got to do this, it's up to you. And I really feel that if we want to make change, we've got to get rid of blame. We've got to stop trying to judge people for what they do or don't know. Like anything, once you know, you know. Anything. When you don't know, it's confusing. You know, if you've never heard the term before, and let's say whether you did or didn't know anything about racism, and let's say the George Floyd death shocked you. You go, wow, I had no idea that still goes on. Right? That's an opportunity

for someone to learn. But I saw a lot of people trying to and getting hammered online for trying to say, hey, look, you know, what can I do? And it's like, you're being lazy, you need to do the work. And look, I get it. There's charge on both sides here. And people I feel who've been discriminated against for many years, maybe within their families, probably feel charged as well. It's like, well, you go and start looking it up. You know, why do I need to now educate you? I get it. I totally understand it. I genuinely, I hope I'm not judging anyone. I'm really trying not to, but I just feel if we want to make change, we've got to lead with kindness and go, okay, all right, well, you know, why don't you start with this and this? Because I think guilt is a real thing you saw in that library. When someone points out the mum doesn't use it as an opportunity to teach

she moves away and actually that brings me on to the topic of white privilege which you actually give a really beautiful explanation of that but I was reflecting on it this morning and I thought do you think that's a helpful term and tell you why I say that I don't think any term is perfect because we need a way to describe things and we don't have a language we can't move on. But I think that term might turn some people off straight away to not even engage in a conversation. I can see why people get defensive and I face that a lot when I'm talking about it in my talks and workshops. But I always say privilege exists with all of us. And white

privilege is just one form of privilege. I might have brown skin, but I have certain privileges in terms of education or whatever financial resources or whatever that certain brown people might not have. So I know that I have those privilege. White privilege is just one form of privilege, which means that doesn't mean to say that you people with white skin haven't faced any barriers or obstructions in life. Just means that racism is not one of the barriers that they faced or they're likely to face in predominantly white society. It means that constantly thinking about racism or microaggression is not something that they have to worry about every day. Class is a huge barrier to people. So that's why we need to think about intersectionality of privilege. A white working class person will not have the same

privileges as a white middle class, white upper class person. So we need to think about these things. And that is when we stop making it into an oppression Olympics, where people say, don't you think working class people suffer more than brown people? Or it's not an Olympics. It's not a context. People face different oppressions, different framework of oppression, different structures of oppression based on their context. White privilege, I think, is a very important term to consider that we live in a society where whiteness is the norm. They're less likely to have the security guard follow them around than a black man who goes

around. They're less likely to be racially profiled. I talk of an incident when with my nine-year-old, I was stopped by a police. I have privileges as educated. I was a professor. I was still stopped in the street because somebody complained against us. They thought that we were shoplifters because we had brown skin. That was a huge moment for me and for my nine-year-old

to face because you suddenly realize my skin is something still a barrier and obstruction and the way I've seen. So I think white privilege is an important term as is intersectionality a privilege as any other kind of privilege. And I think I give lots of examples of that in the book about how do we acknowledge this notion rather than getting defensive about it it's not to say that you're not facing any barriers it's not to say you haven't had any disadvantages it's just to say that you've got a racism proof bubble which many other people who do not have white skin will not have yeah and it's not you know ultimately what we're talking about you know at it really if we sort of go to the 30,000 foot view, it's bias. There's all kinds of bias. There's sexism bias. You know, it's well acknowledged that women have been discriminated against for many years. It continues to happen. It doesn't mean that because that is the case, I need to feel guilty as a man. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of

like, you can acknowledge it and go, what can I do to help ensure that this doesn't continue? Or I do my bit. But I guess the sort of the wider point I think is, I mean, if anyone's listening to this, and any of the topics are making you feel uncomfortable, I'd ask them to ask themselves why. What's it reflecting back onto you? What's making you feel uncomfortable? And I'd urge you from the bottom of my heart, don't move away from the discomfort, lean into it, learn about yourself, learn what it is. Why do I feel uncomfortable talking about this? Because I feel a great way to live life is to look for discomfort, look for friction and go, why is that bothering me? Because I think that's where the gold is for all of us. Yeah, absolutely. We have to sit with this discomfort. And if we don't, then we don't

create change. To create change, we have to. Otherwise, we stay in our cushy bubbles and we feel comfortable. And then we just accept how things are. And we accept it as status quo. We just think that this is how the world is. And we'll just try and fit into this world rather than create any kind of fuss or discomfort for anybody. But yes, I think we can all choose our bit. We can all create change. Sometimes people might also think it's just me, one person, how is it going to matter? I think we have a responsibility to engage with different views. We have a responsibility to learn every day, educate ourselves. We have a responsibility to be open-minded, kind,

as you say, compassionate. Empathy is a huge thing about countering bias, because unless we really step into somebody else's shoes, we don't know their perspective. It's about accepting that there's not just one view on this world, there are multiple perspectives. And until we hear these multiple perspectives, we don't know what other people's lives have been like and how they've lived and what experiences they have. So I think that's really important for all of us to do. Are the tools and techniques that you talk about in your book, are they only relevant for us living in a white predominant society? Well, let's take India, for example, where it's not white predominant,

it's brown skin are the majority, and racism absolutely exists there. I think it's important to recognise that there are other forms. We're living in a white dominant society, so we're talking about it in a specific context. But it also has relevance in non-white dominant societies as well, doesn't it? Absolutely. And as you say, within Indian or other South Asian communities, there are other forms of biases and discriminations that really exist. And we have to understand those hierarchies. Again, it's a matter of hierarchy, how those hierarchies are formed. In India, for instance, I talk in Sway more, but also a little bit in this book about how South Asian

communities have to counter racism within their communities as well. And so for our children to understand that racism is not just black and white, it can come from within their own communities as well. Colorism is a feeling or a view that fair skin is better. And that is so deeply entrenched in a lot of communities that from a young age, a girl especially, again, it's intersectionality with gender. Women are made to believe that fair skin women are much better. They are more desirable. They're more beautiful. So they get better jobs or better opportunities. And dark-skinned women, especially, but also men, feel shame within themselves. And that is also a legacy of imperialism that has

persisted that in some way whiteness is better. And that has created an anti-Black sentiment within our community, which means that we see from a young age in Bollywood and books, how black people are made fun of or blackness is made fun of. And that is something we have to counter as a South Asian community, as a brown person. And when Black Lives Matter was happening, I really questioned that on Twitter, but also on other social media about what are we doing as our community to really understand that we can be contributing to this as well. All of us might carry internalized racism as well, which means that we think that we need to behave in a certain way to have more power in society, which means that we might see

people discriminating against people of our own color, skin color as well, or our own community as well. Because once we are at a certain position, we might not want to understand what other people of the same skin color are facing. So yes, I think caste is a huge issue in India. Of course, caste hierarchy is a huge factor in discrimination. And we have to accept and acknowledge that people of higher caste have opportunities and privileges yeah caste privilege is certainly a big thing so i think it's so important for us to reflect within our own communities as well yeah no no very very important points i think you know i was thinking about terminology and you know i've really changed the way i describe things over the past few years. We're the many things in life in terms of identity and how we label things. And

I've actually, when I talk about different people now, I don't know if you've noticed in the conversation, but I typically will say people with white skin, people with brown skin, people with black skin, because I feel that's, and it's, I guess we're all trying to do the best we can, right? We don't want to offend. I want to be factual without labeling. And to me, that feels good to me because I'm like, okay, that's a factual comment. It's a person with white skin rather than a white person. And you may say, what's the difference? And I guess to me on an individual level, I prefer saying a person with white skin because for me, I feel I'm less labeling a group of people. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, that's important that we find our own terminology that we are comfortable with as well. But we also prevent ourselves for as much as we can from labeling people. Yes, skin color is an identifier, but people have their own identity that they can define as well, and they should be able to. Although skin color is a strong identifier, that's why I say brown and black people and white people, because that's how a person is perceived or seen first, you know. And people who are mixed heritage or mixed race, which is often used, find it tricky, I think, find it much trickier because they might be white passing, they might have white skin, but they might not be a white person. So I think saying a person with white skin is perfectly valid because a person with white skin might not identify as a white person. They might have half black heritage or brown heritage

or any other form of heritage, which they might feel closer to. So I think mixed heritage people or children, I think it's a very tricky conversation, which I also address in the book about how important it is for them to have this conversation. Yeah, you absolutely do. And I don't think, it's funny,

when you really think about it, you can really see that identity could get really tricky if let's say you look different from one of your parents or people perceive you a certain way and it must yeah and I know that is something I guess with your twins is it that you are particularly mindful of yes and and And I'm always like slightly thinking about the fact that they don't have very dark brown skin. They don't have brown skin at all. They're lighter skin. So they'll all be white passing.

They can easily pass off as Mediterranean or anybody. So the only brown skin person they see is me. And that is, or their older sister, which shapes their perception of what is good or bad. So if they show a preference for their father because he's got white skin or they say your skin's really dirty, mommy, it suddenly raises a lot of red flags in me,

which I have to really, really sit with it for a while, the discomfort to figure out whether it's just a childish way of creating their own sense of identity, or actually they have some biases against darker skin, which can project onto other people with darker skin as well. So I think for mixed heritage, it's really tricky about how we support them to take pride in their sense of mixedness, I think, to take pride in that rather than having to choose one side or the other as well. Yes. I mean, so important. Just thinking about what you said about what we're exposed to and what we see around us. I read about a year ago that since Mohamed Salah came to Liverpool, so if you don't know, striker

of the Islamic faith, becomes a hero, scores lots of goals. I read, and I don't know if you're familiar with this or not, that anti-Islamic racism sort of crimes or complaints have gone down hugely in Liverpool since he joined. I saw that. And I actually quote that in Suey as well, that research, because that shows the value of representation and role models because he's proudly Muslim. And we know Islamophobia exists in our society. It's really deeply entrenched. He's proudly Muslim. He prays openly, talks openly about his faith. And he's somebody that people take pride in because he's such a good footballer. And I think that's a huge thing in Liverpool and Fomby where a lot of footballers live.

So, yes, that has created a less like countering some of the Islamophobic sentiments, I think, for a place which is not very diverse, which has a lot of racism that goes on. And I think that really shows that representation models, role models matter. And also, that really is important for people to see different view of people who they might have only seen in a negative way. So they might have only come across in media of Muslims being a certain way because of the messaging we get. So they're seeing a positive role model, I think. And that's happened with Obama as well as a black man who came as president. And I think that countered a lot of view. We have to see how much that addresses the systemic and structural racism, though. On an individual and interpersonal level, that is really crucial in the way that they're

perceiving. But we have to make sure that somehow that gets filtered in so that the systemic and structural racism that exists in our society, in our policies, in our institutions is also countered. Yeah, no, for sure. In terms of our kids, then, just to start sort of winding down this conversation, of course, I would very much recommend people get hold of the book, Wish We Knew What To Say. I think it's really good, really insightful, loads of practical tips. But for the listeners and the viewers, let's go through. So what are some of the things that parents listening to this conversation can do with their children? Maybe we start from three, four, five, and then move up to sort of teenage years. But I wonder if you've got a few sort of take homes for people. Absolutely. I think there is so much. But the one thing we can, as I said before, we can all do is to start unlearning our biases and reflecting on our biases and stereotypes because the messages we give out to children

is really important. Secondly, bringing in more diverse books, not just books which have tokenistic black or brown person in it, but books that actively shatter some of the stereotypes. So some of the books with diverse role models can also reinforce those stereotypes. So we want them to be exposed to a diverse media, diverse magazine, diverse books. And that has to happen from a very young age that we are doing that actively. We actively question any kind of assumptions they have. So if they say anything, not be judgmental, not criticize them, not shush them up, but more like engage with them, ask them why they are thinking that, how did they shape that view, form that view.

And I think that kind of create a space which is non-judgmental for a child so that they feel comfortable asking any question from a young age. They don't feel like some questions are taboo, some topics are taboo in our family. So I'll just go and form my own views and opinions with it. As they grow older, I think it's important that we expose our children to as many diverse groups as possible. So even if they don't have a very diverse set of friends, maybe clubs or societies, which I know is tricky right now with our restrictions, but just so that they engage with people or they see people from different backgrounds and ethnicity and engage with them, hear diverse views and accents and skin colors and ethnicities. And I think that is really, really important as child grows older.

and I think that is really really important as child grows older history I think is really important for a child no matter what skin color a child has to have a sense of global history of where we came from how did these forms of oppression happen so taking them to like slavery museum or other other museums there's loads of resources online as well having a more rounded view of history from what they're taught at schools. It's not just Tudors and Victorians. We talk about imperial history. We talk about other forms of other places. And I know that diverse books such as Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks, children read them, especially during Black History Month. But we have to help our children understand this is not just something that happened in the past. It still happens. But it is important that they learn they can create change. So from a young age, they can be part of social activism. We can talk to them about if you see something like that,

what can you do about it? What can we do? And if they see their parents getting involved in some of the social activism movements or doing something purposeful or meaningful like that, or actively challenging stereotypes, then they would be more inclined to do that as well. They can do simple things like raise money through just giving, you know, do something that raises money for a charity. That creates a social consciousness about privilege and who's not as privileged. Yeah. And I think as they grow older, maybe do more activities with them around scenarios, like if you see racism or racial bullying happening or racial prejudice, what do you do? Who do you talk to? Who do you go and have a chat with? How can you be a better ally? What do you do to support somebody who's not being as supported at school? So I think just having these really conversations about politics, what's happening in politics.

Yeah. What strikes me as you go through that, I think they're brilliant tips, very helpful. But actually at its core, what you're talking about is having open and honest conversations with our children and recognizing our own biases or our own blind spots that maybe we weren't aware of, leaning into that, discovering it first for ourselves as adults, and then trying to have those conversations with kids. but also something really nice from early on in the conversation is it's okay to say i don't know yeah actually you know what darling that's a great question i

don't know should we find out the answer together that is so powerful i know it's something that we often do with our kids it's like actually i don't know the answer to that at the weekend why don't you spend a bit of time trying to figure that out um i think you're doing just incredible work thank you so much rangan i really do i think these are important conversations if people with platforms can't have these conversations right how are things going to change how are people going to start having these conversations yeah absolutely and i think that's so incredible what you're doing to give this a platform or give talk to people with multiple stories, because we need to hear different stories, because we do need to. And the point of these conversations is not to create a divisive world, because we want to remove divisions. We're not

saying anybody's better than other people or other people need to have more advantages than others, because that's absolutely what we're trying to shatter through any of these conversations. We want equality. We want fair-mindedness. We want everybody to have the same opportunities, no matter what. And I think for that, we have to hear why some people are not having the same opportunities or they might have certain obstacles. And unless we hear that, how do we address it? And I think that's the crucial bit about we all are in this together. We all want equality. We all want fair-mindedness. Well, I think that's a wonderful place to finish off the conversation today. As I say, you're doing incredible work. I really hope people go out and buy Sway,

but also this new one. If people want just a little bite-sized sort of entry into this and some practical tips on how you can have these conversations with your kids, but also with yourself, I would say, it's called Wish We Knew What To Say, Talking With Children About Race. I think it's well worth people buying. Thank you so much for giving me some of your time today and I'm sure we'll have a lot more to talk about if we ever get to do this in the future thank you so much Rangan it's been lovely speaking with you thank you really hope you enjoyed that conversation about what I think is a really important subject as always do have a think about one thing

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