Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #17 Matt Willis on Pop Stardom, Addiction and Discovering Good Health

Episode Date: May 9, 2018

Dr Chatterjee talks to pop star, actor and self-confessed nutrition geek, Matt Willis, about the whirlwind of Busted, his alcohol addiction and his new-found awareness of the impact of his diet on his overall health. Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/mattwillis Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and BBC television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people, both within as well as outside the health space, to hopefully inspire you, as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier, because when we feel better, we live more. So today's guest is someone who's probably a little bit different from the

previous guests you've heard on this podcast. And it's someone who I'm really excited to talk about because the reason I've called this podcast Feel Better Live More is because I genuinely believe no matter who you are, no matter which field you work in, when we feel better in ourselves, I think we get more out of life. The gentleman I'm going to speak to today is a pop star. He's an actor. And over the last few years, he's become a self-confessed nutrition geek. It's Mr. Matt Willis. Matt, welcome to the podcast. Hi. Thanks for having me, man. I'm really stoked to be here. Matt, I think before we get into the nuts and bolts of this conversation, I always like to share with the listener where our paths cross first.

Right. I think for me, we met, I think, in 2005, I think it probably was. Yeah, it was 2005. Yeah, so I was taking a bit of time off. yeah it was 2005 yeah so I was taking a bit of time off I was actually playing a lot of music in the French Alps

over the winter period and I remember we'd finished playing a gig and myself and the drummer were out just unwinding afterwards and I suddenly got a tap on the shoulder I think from your manager at the time saying hey look

we saw you play before. We're just wanting someone we can just go and sit down and chill out and chat. And that was basically because you had just come out of Busted. Is that right? Busted had just finished. Busted had just finished, yeah. We just kind of, we broke up in the, I think in the January, or it might have been the beginning of February. I'm not entirely sure.

But then I went, I literally went to Chamonix straight away just to clear my head, just to get away from London and kind of chaos. You know, and at the moment I needed taking out of London, you know. So, but unfortunately they took me out of London and put me in a ski resort which was probably just as bad but um but it was um yes i met i met you in the in the bar it was really nice yeah we got we got to know each other and yeah you came and sang with us i think as well the next night um and really we've we've got to know each other from there so quite a chance meeting um and you know you know, we got to know each other a little bit out there. Then, you know, sort of stayed in touch after that, you know, at various amounts because obviously we all get busy in our own lives. And then I think we'd kind of lost touch a little bit.

And then I remember when my first series of Doctor in the House came out, I think you started tweeting me. And then I think we re-engaged at that point. Yeah, yeah. And we've hung out quite a bit recently. And, Matt, I think, you know, we talk about that time in 2005. You were at that time, and I think from recollection, the biggest pop band in the country.

Yeah, arguably, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was kind country um yeah arguably yeah yeah yeah it was kind of um it was it was yeah it was a whirlwind it was a massive kind of like um kind of life changing thing you know being busted it was um and at the time it was it was amazing but then just as you met me it all ended you know just as fast as it had happened it had all ended you know which is a very weird time for me and how did all that start for you i mean how did you become you know in one of the leading pop bands certainly in the country and i know busted's reach spread you know much further than that but how did that come about is that something you had planned as a kid uh well not not really if i'm honest like i kind of played guitar in my room and stuff

and kind of always sung you know and um but i wanted to be an actor you know that's i went to acting school and i kind of always thought that was going to be my life if i was lucky enough to do that you know and in the meantime i'd kind of met james bourne from my band and we were writing kind of silly songs and we thought you know we might play like local places in south end you know where like i then lived with him in south end and we kind of you know we might play like local places in south end you know where like i and then then lived with him in south end and we kind of you know and i mean we always had the goal to be a band and kind of go on tour and stuff but we never really thought it would ever really the childhood dream right yeah the childhood dream but you you kind of like to be honest to

play in front of a load of girls would have been wicked that's all that we really aimed for at that time you know so um and then um we did a demo of our song and someone handed it to simon cowell you know of our demo of what i got to school for and um and he wanted to sign the band and as soon as he wanted to sign the band literally everybody in the music industry wanted to sign the band and so from two like two kids who we we got charlie involved a few weeks before that as well like he was so new to the band like me and James

we'd been doing it for a couple of years got Charlie involved our demo got sent off and they saw the picture and it was no longer these two weird kids we also had this really

dashing good looking front man and before we knew it we were signed and we didn't actually sign to Simon Cowell we signed to someone else but I think because he was interested everyone just picked up a buzz and we were kind of a bit of a buzzword and um

and then it just went from there really wow so so from just writing songs in your bedroom with a buddy you then get a record deal and then you release music which it clearly resonated with with the public um how did that affect you on a you know were you having fun i mean was it was it the best time of your life or do you look back now and reflect in a different way um do you know what no i look back at it and so as going it was one of the most amazing times of my life like i mean i and i can look back and go there was trouble there you know and kind of go and kind of point to certain moments in my life where people sat me down and said you should calm down a bit you know and I can I can pick certain moments out of my life when that happened and a

lot happened during that period but when I look back at it I had such an amazing time I mean I was I was 18 19 you know playing arenas you know like touring the world you know, playing arenas, you know, like touring the world, you know, it was just like, and I had a bit of money. It was just like, everything was kind of insane. It was just amazing. Wow. So, you know, you're a pop star, you're touring the world. And, you know, I'm sure probably enjoying life quite a lot, I guess, on the roads you know as a I think most 18 year olds probably would do if I'm honest um and then it all ended and how was that you know emotionally you know to to deal with when when buses suddenly finished did that change things for you um yeah dramatically I think um and at the time I didn't really realize what effect that was having on me when I think about it. You know, like when Busted ended, I was quickly, well, just before it ended, I was kind of told by everybody,

don't worry because, you know, you're going to go solo and it's going to be amazing and you're going to be this and we're going to sign your record deal. And like, I was like, oh, OK. You know, I didn't ever plan on being a solo artist. I'm quite comfortable being the bass player, but OK know I guess I'll do that now you know and um and so that was kind of like I think that was to kind of stop me kind of going oh my god my life is over you know but um but then you know I didn't really ever want to be solo I didn't ever really want to make an album of my own I loved being in a band and it was um and slowly but surely it kind of um it kind of uh without that focus and without something which i loved all day i kind of did turn to kind of you know things got

i got carried away with a lot of different things and um and you know alcohol played a massive part of my life for such a long time you know and um and it really kind of brought me to my knees in the end do you think that you started drinking more after bus did finished or when you know you guys were you know flavor of not the month flavor of the year flavor of the three years and you know touring the worlds um because i imagine that would um lend itself to quite a bit of partying when you're on the roads but how was it even harder when it when it all ended was did you use alcohol to sort of you know numb some of those feelings potentially i think so i think i mean i mean to be honest i was always a party boy i was always the one out of the band who was up the latest but i'd also be up first in the morning and i was quite good at kind of doing my job you

know making sure that i was there you know but i was definitely the wild kind of crazy party guy you know um but to be honest towards the end of my drinking it became more a problem of necessity rather than rather than just to kind of numb feelings or to get out of my own head it was kind of um i became super you know addicted to alcohol you know and it was kind of a point where i couldn't go a period of time without drinking because i felt like I was going to die at points you know it was just the shakes and the kind of anxiety that came up on me it was like a physical withdrawal from alcohol every time I stopped drinking so and did that just sort of build up insidiously over time without even realizing it yeah I mean there was times when

I knew what I was doing I knew that I was drinking earlier in the day. You know, that was the biggest one for me. Like I never thought I had a problem with alcohol cause I'm trying to drink in the morning, you know, like, and like, that's what alcoholics do.

And suddenly I was drinking in the morning, you know, it was kind of, um, so everything, you know, I, I,

I hear this a lot in, in kind of, um, in fellowships that I belong to now, you know, I kind of hear that, um, you know,

you, you say, I will never do this. I'll never be that bad. And then slowly, but surely you do those things and you are that bad, you know, so it's, it's, it's, it's a progressive illness, I think. So what happens from, you know, you being in that moment in that dark place where you are you know over relying on alcohol as you in your words an alcoholic um whereas now i see you as somebody who's very very health conscious who's very much into nutrition yeah what happens uh well to be honest i mean this is the thing like i think along the way i haven't drunk alcohol for nine years years now. But along the way, I've kind of come to a conclusion that I have, you know, I don't really have a problem with alcohol. I find that as a symptom of my illness of addiction in a way, you know, I kind of find that I just have a certain thing within me that if you can become addicted to something i'm most probably going to become addicted to it you know so um i've picked up so many different things along the way like um you

know and and kind of had to deal with them as they come you know but um but i think the best one i picked up on was kind of trying to look after myself you know and kind of i think it got to a point in like 2009 where i just looked a mess you know like i'd kind of been sober a little while and um and uh i was i was not drinking but i still looked awful and i was like i still you know i stay up as late as i possibly can you know like just watching rubbish and i eat terribly but um and then i so i thought right i'm gonna start looking after myself a little bit more so i started going to the gym and going on the treadmill like everyone does, you know, and I kind of and I did that. And I'd have my Lucas aid before I went in, you know, and I kind of come out and I'd, you know, I don't know what I was doing at the time.

It was just I was just eating terribly, you know, but I thought that was what was supposed to be to be good, you know. And then someone at my um gym gave me a copy of rob wolf's paleo solution and um and i literally started reading it that night like he gave it to me i was like oh i'll you know i'll read this what's this about you know and i read that book and it just resonated with me and i was like this just makes perfect sense you know obviously you know pringles and lucas aid are not the best diet for me you know like um so that that book literally i became obsessed with that and i became one of those really annoying paleo guys who uh who knew everything and told you everything you were

doing wrong for quite a while you know told everyone who you came across hey you gotta read this you gotta do this exactly you gotta do this you know gluten is the enemy well you know and i was really i was really i was really that guy you know for a long time you know but um and suddenly but surely you know like i've changed certain things and tweaked certain things and kind of you know and then i fall off the wagon a little bit every now and again you know but um i think those principles you know of kind of just eating what humans should eat just eat real food really is what is what the message is you know just eat food you know and um and that has kind of really stuck with me and really helped me it's fascinating to hear you say that matt because you know one of the one of the most frustrating things that i come across as a medical doctor who's trying my best to you know

help create a shift in thinking in public health as you know how we all look at ourselves how medicine is practiced also in terms of really looking for the root cause of problems rather than suppressing symptoms with drugs which is what I find we do a lot of the time these days there's a lot of divisiveness on the internet over you know is it paleo is it it low fat? Is it vegan? And, you know, I was thinking about this recently and actually I was thinking about it a lot when writing my first book. You really have to compress your thoughts to really, you kind of know it in your head, but you think, actually, I need to get this down in a very coherent way so people can understand it and and i thought you know what i've got patients who have read paleo books and it's

changed their life it's got rid of their joint pains it's got rid of their weight problems i've got patients also who've gone vegan um and they've transformed their health and what the commonality is though when people do you know paleo when it transforms them or they do veganism and it transform them often what a lot of what they do is quite similar which is get rid of the processed junk food yeah so yeah no matter where you start from if you're having a lot of western processed junk foods and you cut those things out which you do on a paleo diet which you would probably do on a well-functioning or a well-thought-out vegan diet, actually most people are going to feel better.

Now, long-term, do people need to stick to that? Well, you've illustrated really well that you were really kind of regimental at the start with it, but you've kind of figured out what works for you now. Yeah, and I think it is so individual. That's the thing. I think one size definitely does not always fit all you know and um and i've got friends who are vegans who do fantastically on it you know i've um you know i've got friends who you know but i've had periods of my time and i've eaten a lot more meat than i do now yeah you know but now i try to um i try really hard to fit all my micronutrients in which has

made a massive difference to my life like in the last kind of month i've been really focusing on kind of eating as many different varieties of vegetables as i can you know it's kind of um and my energy levels are through the roof like it's just a simple change and it was like um because you know before i go through periods of life when i was like right okay i eat the same thing all the time you know and i eat chicken and broccoli and all life when I was like, right, okay, I eat the same thing all the time. You know, and I eat chicken and broccoli and all that kind of stuff that you're told that is going to get you in ripped or whatever. You know, and then you're so deficient in other things. You know, but by just eating kind of an array of different stuff, you don't notice, but you're getting everything in.

You start to feel better. And I think these, you know, I spoke to Rob Wolf about this. And I think these, you know, I spoke to Rob Wolf about this. I was in, I think it was November at the end of 2017. I was in California and I was at Chris Kresser's book launch. Wow. And I was speaking there with Chris and with Rob. Had a long chat with Rob. And, you know, what's interesting, you talk to Rob and, you know,

he will also accept that there are many ways to do this and we need to personalize it for ourselves. And Chris Crusher as well, he says it's a very good starting point for people to go paleo, let's say. But then people need to kind of figure out bit by bit what works for them. figure out bit by bit what works for them. And what I'm getting from you, Matt, is that you are now more in tune with the choices that you're making in your lifestyle. You're a bit more in tune with the impact that's having on you.

Is that fair to say? Yeah, humongously. Like I can notice changes like within a week of, of adding something new into my diet, for instance, like, like I'm,

I'm adding so many more vegetables now we're kind of doing um i'm working with a guy at the moment i'm doing a film in september and i'm and i have to look a certain way for the film right so um so actually the the last couple of weeks like i've been um i've been really focusing on my diet you know i kind of think i eat pretty well anyway you know and um and me and a guy called paul burgess are kind of doing this plan together which is really nutrient dense you know it's like it's like you have to make you know you have to fit a certain amount of calories in stuff which is which is quite by the way i'm doing this for a role like i would i could not possibly live like this

you know really but um you're basically trying to sort your physique out because you're going to be on screen i'm going to be on screen so i i want to look a certain way you know the director has told me i need to look a certain way by a certain date so that's a certain pressure isn't it it is a certain pressure and there's also the pressure to go right okay let's let's do all this stuff which is very unhealthy to get you to this point just to look good on camera which is kind of what actors do you know unfortunately you just hear you know you've got to take this and you've got to do this and you've got to eat this you know and kind of relatively starve yourself towards the towards the shoot to that must be a huge pressure actually it is a huge it is a huge pressure i guess a motivating factor in one way because it's presumably going to drive a lot of healthy

behaviors potentially um although i get the impression you're pretty healthy as it is these days yeah but i in fact find that it actually triggers my head to for unhealthy behaviors like um like it kind of um it makes me think right okay because um because anything you can take too far right and like um and i think you know unfortunately with with with jobs like that there is a tendency to to to go the wrong way and kind of maybe not focus on the right type of diet and kind of just crash it and kind of get there and peak for that one day of filming and then you know the wheels are going to fall off of that eventually you know so i was like how can i do this in the healthiest possible way i've got a really long time i haven't got to do

it till september i was like how can i do this look this way but keep my body as as healthy as possible i wonder there matt given your your previous experiences with excess um let's say with alcohol is there anything you can learn from that that you can apply into this situation so you're you're being pushed to look a certain way for a acting film role yeah and so you know as many of us would we want to look a certain way on camera i mean i think many of us can probably resonate with that but you also know that there is a potential by doing that it's going to trigger some of those potentially unhealthy addictive type behaviors yeah yeah completely do you have any how are you going to

try and avoid that do you know yet or are you trying to figure it out no i'm still trying to figure it out because because i find that i trigger addictive behavior all the time like that's the biggest problem for me really in in my recovery process is is is my behavior you know i notice it all the time i have to really work on that you know so um i mean i i do have the tendency to go right let's work out for five hours a day and eat you know relatively small meal you know and all that kind of stuff which becomes a you know the wheels will just fall off and it will just all go horribly wrong so i'm like right so i had to employ somebody to get someone very good who i trusted who i who i know is in this kind of world um how can i do this in the healthiest possible way that's great so you're you're you're giving that that plan up to

somebody else you're paying someone else to actually almost make sure that's taken care of for you completely and it takes out of my own head because my own head will run wild with it and i'll start going on to you know maybe if i cut my calories to 1100 calories a day that might you know that's my head that will tell me that you know whereas someone else will just go do this follow the plan it will work and i go okay yes thank you very much i can resonate with that on so many levels a lot of people listening probably don't know that about me that i've i have you know, my good friends throughout school, throughout university will tell you that I've got a very addictive type personality. Right. But, you know, if I'm doing something, I'm all in. Yeah, yeah. I can't just sort of dip in and out. I'm either doing it or I'm not.

Yeah, yeah, completely. And, you know, whether that's partying in my 20s, whether that is, you know, oh, I'm going to get fit now. I remember I hadn't swum for about five, six years and suddenly I thought, well, I'm going to get really good at swimming. And, you know, I went, I was working in pediatrics in Shrewsbury, actually. I remember it really well. And I'd often stay there in the week. And I thought, yeah, I'm going to get into swimming. So I found a local pool and I literally went every day for seven days,

like about half an hour or an hour. And by the end of the week, I couldn't lift my right shoulder anymore because I damaged my rotator cuffs because I hadn't swam in ages. And suddenly I just threw myself into it. And then I couldn't do anything with my right arm for about three or four months. I couldn't play the sports I wanted to. And I thought, that's just typical me. You know, I've just gone straight in rather than think. just typical me you know i've just gone straight in rather than think and you know you can with hindsight of course i was going to injure myself because there was no build-up to it yeah um but

you know i won't go into all now but you can go to all aspects of my personality and i've i've certainly you know i took up golf about eight years ago um you know because i long story but i'd hurt my back and i had to give up playing squash. I was really missing competitive sports. Right. And I became obsessed. My friends were like, well, why can't you just play now? And again, I'm like, no, no, if I'm going to play, I'm going to be getting all the magazines,

going to be reading about it, getting the lessons. I'm going to be working on my swing every evening in the mirror. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you might be able to resonate with some of this is literally that is just me yeah with everything you know like i took up crossfit and um and i loved it dude like it's competitive it's um it's it's exercise it's kind of a sport of the gym in a way i was like this is everything i need in my life you know and i went every day for like 14 days and was just a mess at the end of it.

But you know what's interesting for me? Over the last four years, I've had certain elements of media exposure. And I probably had to sort of look deep inside throughout that time, whether it's things you don't like reading on social media, whether it's a press article about you that isn't accurate and, you know, is ripping off another article. And, you know, people are then commenting on things that actually you never said in the first place. And I've had to really process all that because, you know, I'm quite soft skinned, really. I'm genuinely, I'm a doctor who's trying my best to help as many people as possible in as harmless a way as possible.

And I've kind of had to figure out a lot of stuff, like, you know, process my own stuff, basically. And I'm finding as I've done that, I'm more at peace with who I am. I'm more happy day to day. I feel my life now, my job has got real meaning it's got real purpose yeah and i've kind of found since since i've really tapped into that my addictive behaviors are or my tendencies are reducing quite dramatically and it's really been in the last i don't know maybe two years or so i'm really starting to go i'm not quite as you know i don't get quite i'm quite happy to take you know it's not all gone yeah right but it's just not there as much and you know i i wonder you know

can you i don't know i'm just sort of sharing that with you do you see anything in that yeah yeah completely i mean i think this is um uh this is the thing because because certain parts of me i wouldn't change you know this is the thing that people say to me are you are you um does it bum you out that you're an addict you know i'm like no i'm really i'm really i've learned to love that part of me in a weird way i mean i don't like what happens because of it sometimes, but there's also some benefits that go with that. Like I think I'm the way I am in my work because of this, and I get a lot of benefit out of that. And there's certain parts of me which I like.

And also I like the man I am today because of the work that I've done within recovery to feel this way. I would never have known this about myself I've been so necessarily comfortable about certain areas of my feelings if I had not have done the work which happened from me walking into certain rooms and saying hi I'm Matt I'm an addict you know so um uh which takes a lot of courage I think for people to kind of say I think that's a big a big step for anyone with a with a problem with with drink or drugs to kind of come to that conclusion for themselves how is it for you now saying that in front of me not in a in a in a room let's say with other people struggling with addiction yeah i presume back then it might have given you i'm guessing anxiety or palpitations

just a thought of saying it yeah are you completely at ease with that statement given you i'm guessing anxiety or palpitations just a thought of saying it yeah are you completely at ease with that statement now oh i'm completely at ease with that statement yeah like i mean it took a long time for me to be completely at ease and to be honest it depends it for a while it depended who i was talking to when that would come up you know like it would be um like if i ever went out like um if if i went to an event or something and someone would offer me a drink i'd always say no i'm driving yeah you know because it was just an easy get out you know like oh you can just have one no no i'm fine thanks i'm driving you know it's just my way of not having to say um you know because also it's a bit of a

conversation killer no i'm a i'm a drug addict you know like a kind of a drink it's a bit it's a bit much to take on so i was like how what can i what can i say here to get away from this but now i just go no i don't drink you know and like people are going oh i said no just don't doesn't suit me so you're you're you become that much at ease with who you are that you're happy saying that now yeah completely and i think i think i think the more open we are it, the less of an issue it will be for people. This is the thing. I think there's a certain stigma attached to, you know, like, you know, when you think of the word drug addict,

you think of a criminal guy robbing people for their purses, you know, to buy heroin and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, this image comes up when you think of drug addicts when really i sit in rooms around the country whenever i am and i sit in rooms with you know all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds who all have this one thing in common you know and it's the most amazing feeling sometimes to sit in a room. Because I remember going into these fellowships. You're not supposed to say if you're a member or not. It's anonymous for a reason.

But I remember going into these places. And throughout all my life, I felt like I had this secret that I was potentially maybe crazy. You know, like I had this thing wrong with my head, right, that I thought differently to everybody else. I was uncomfortable in my own skin. I was I was uncomfortable in social situations. I couldn't deal with just simple human interaction, you know. And then I found substances and alcohol, which made that go away you know and i could suddenly behave in a way that i could never behave before and um and i felt comfortable in

certain situations it was amazing and um and then unfortunately everything it it gave me it took away tenfold towards the end but i went into this room and um and I heard people telling my secret. I heard all these people in this room and I felt like going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, they're going to lock you up. Don't talk about this. But I was like, oh, I'm not – what I thought about myself is not true. I'm just an addict. Wow, this is quite a liberating experience.

I suddenly have something which I can relate to other people about i can talk to people about and they understand me and i understand them it's um it's a beautiful thing yeah it's an incredible story matt um you know you should really check out this this guy called dr gabor mate i was listening to a podcast with him the other day he's a fascinating man i i the immense pleasure of seeing him speak in back in that california trip back in november and asking him some questions at the end and i really think he's onto something and he you know he says the way a society that we treat drug addicts is outrageous he says because these you know any addiction is actually i mean he puts it down to um some form of trauma in childhoods

and you know i guess some people will find that controversial i think he's on to something actually in terms of that we're using addictions whether it's drugs whether it's alcohol whether it's sugar right because a lot of people hey they've got emotional reasons why they're eating so much sugar yeah completely myself included in that absolutely i think many of us are which is why we find behavioral change so hard yeah and he he really presents a very compelling story as to how all these addictions are the same they are we are looking for those substances to give us something that we're not potentially getting in another aspects of our life and i'm still kind of trying to process it all and figure it out in my head yeah something about that

resonates with me which is why i feel that since i've really really grown into who i am now and what i'm trying to do uh both in my practice both as a dad and trying to bring up two hopefully amazing kids i certainly like every parent i'm trying my best to do that yeah i kind of realized that when i get that fulfillment and that real sense of purpose i'm finding more and more that my uh addictive tendencies are going down which is just quite interesting for me on one level um yeah really interesting it is interesting i think um i had someone you know and also this is the thing when when it's controversial to say it comes from childhood trauma um um trauma means is different to everybody absolutely you know like you didn't have to be abused as a child to have

childhood trauma you like anything can happen could have been your your mates at school um suddenly ditching you and going to a new group of friends and you suddenly felt insecure yeah yeah as many people have had it as i had at secondary school and i've recently figured out how that has driven a lot of my behaviors but yeah so by tackling that and actually becoming at ease with it that actually it it's changed my behaviors. And it's just phenomenal when you start going back. It is. But you can't go back when you're, it's very hard to go back when you are relying on other substances to get you through. Completely, because you're self-medicating. You're numbing the problem. So I think it was Chris Kresser that said something that said, if you have a rock in your shoe, you know, and you're walking around, it's causing you pain.

You can take probably ibuprofen to numb that pain a little bit. But really, you should probably take a shoe off and take the rock out. I mean, like, have a little look what's actually causing the pain, you know, which is fascinating. You know, I've heard people in rooms describe it as a hole. There's just a hole in you that you try to fill up with different things. And it's just an ever, never-ending hole. You know, which I find really related to as well. You mentioned this, you know, when we hear the term addict, what comes into our heads, you know, this image of a criminal.

you know, this image of a criminal. And I was chatting to some elderly friends and patients of mine recently, and it's quite clear that actually they have been addicted to painkillers for a good 20 years, opiate painkillers, which have been handed out so much. And, you know, really we're realising now that they weren't doing much of a job in terms of helping people's pain,

or certainly as much as we thought they were. Yet we've got a nation now. It's a huge problem in the U.S. Yeah, massive problem in the U.S. Huge problem. But, you know, we've got a big problem here as well. Really? How many people are addicted or dependent on things like cocodamol and codeine and tramadol,

but actually it's seen in a different way because the doctors prescribed it so you know it's it's legal um and it's uh respectable addiction in some way because it's an opiate like isn't it but the doctors prescribed it so it's not seen in the same way as somebody who's let's say addicted to a street drug yeah it's but it's our perception isn't it a society where and and you know this raises a a wider point which is you know is the obesity epidemic is this epidemic of chronic disease just related to um you know we eat too much sugar we eat too much processed food yeah that's a huge factor but actually is there something on a on a you know on a deeper level that people are dissatisfied with the way that they're living their lives that you know one in four people now in any year in the uk can have a mental health problem yeah i'm thinking

but that's you know if that's a huge statistic it's huge isn't it massive statistic yeah yeah and that's not just about a diagnosis. That is, there's something going on in society. And I just wonder how much of this is, how many of us are self-medicating with food? I know, if I've not slept or I'm travelling around, you don't crave fruit and veg, do you? You're craving that. Totally. If I come home and I've had a stressful day or I'm in a, I'm in a bit of a bad mood and there's something there, which I probably shouldn't eat.

I'm not going to think as carefully about it as I probably should do, you know? And that's the thing. I mean, the thing is that, um, like when you think about, about drugs, like, um, cocaine and heroin and, and, and marijuana, I suppose, and prescription drugs are available to anyone who wants them, right? It's just certain people find them. Do you know what I mean? And it's the same with food. Like, it's that if you walk, if I go anywhere, if I go into any shop, I am faced with a barrage

of the most unhealthy things you could possibly put in your body. You know, but some people choose to eat them all the time and some people choose to eat them all the time and some people don't so there's obviously you know like um and and you know there's obviously something going on there yeah absolutely matt you and busted got well not you and busted busted got back together yeah recently and release an album and you went on tour um you know going on tour is an environment where you're away from your house you're away from the things that make it easier to control our behaviors when we're at home is that challenging when you're on the road to eat

well let's say you you like your nutrition yeah you like eating well it makes you feel good how hard is that when you're on the road it's a lot harder i'm not gonna lie it is it depends to be honest because in the uk we um i don't want to sound like a um i don't know how to come across it but in the uk we get looked after really well yeah you know we have a chef on tour you know we have someone and i can tell him what i want to eat and they can cook me what i want you know and like um you know that we we get we get we get looked after really well but um but when we're in europe or japan or anywhere like this we kind of have to rely on our own um means to get food and it's hard you know traveling around is hard especially on promo tours as well

because a lot of time you're you're in a car a lot and um and you're just stopping at a garage you know and in that case it's almost it's almost impossible sometimes to find something i'm getting the insides of sandwiches out you know like and things like that you know so it's um it becomes increasingly more difficult but but fortunately i have learned how to do that you know i have learned that it just takes thinking ahead you know it's like right i'm not going to be able to eat well today so what can tomorrow so what can i do today to make tomorrow a little bit easier you know like obviously i'm not around a kitchen so i can't really prep food so i'm like right we can stop at you know um i can find make sure that when we stop at somewhere it's got like a supermarket that i can buy some

food put together is that then i mean i just wonder for people listening is that a strategy you adopt so you're going out because yeah not many of the listeners i'm sure are going on you know tours and arenas but we'll probably share similar challenges which is that they might be traveling for work or they might be in a very busy job they're on public transport they're not in front of a kitchen yeah yeah so is one of your tips you know i guess preparation and all that what are some of those things that you buy and like keeping your backpack or does such a thing exist um yeah i always have some raw nuts in my bag you know because i find that um if i'm i don't have too many because i'm very bad at overeating that kind of thing you know so i try to have little like i'm i don't have too many because i'm very bad over eating that kind of thing you know so i try to have little like i'm ridiculous like in my bag right now i've got little sealed containers of of like um nuts i've got my lunch prepped you know like that i've that i've got

with me i'm in the studio all day today so um and you know everyone will be getting deliveroo and stuff but i just i've already got my my lunch and my dinner prepped in my bag. Can I just say on that point because a lot of people go oh it's too much hassle to prep foods and I get it for some people it's it takes a bit of a mind you know a mindset shift to get to that point but you know five ten years ago you weren't doing that so why do you do it today what ultimately why do you prep your food my my day is i'd say 60 more productive if i eat well you know which is um which is which is massive i mean i can get by and i can do a day if i just have to grab stuff like for instance if i i mean i wouldn't but if i ate a kfc for lunch right for instance or another fast food chain you know like um i would be okay i wouldn't i wouldn't fall to pieces but i wouldn't feel as good as i do and i wouldn't be able to work as well as i work and I wouldn't fall to pieces. But I wouldn't feel as good as I do. And I wouldn't be able to work as well as I work. And I wouldn't be able to give as good input into the music-making process as I'm going to make.

Even if it's a margin of 5%, that's still not good enough for me. So you actually think not only does it make you feel good, it helps you perform better? Dramatically. Dramatically. it helps you perform better um dramatically dramatically like um like if i eat what's what i've got with me i will stay at a steady kind of energy level i will i will think clearer you know mind mind fog for me is a big thing if i don't eat well my thoughts get cloudy which is really something which i've it's taken a long time for me to work out what food do that to me you know like if i eat a certain thing like um my i can't think straight i can't get the words out properly i know that i i can absolutely sort of echo that

feeling and basically you're saying when you when as i said at the top you know when you feel better you live more you get completely i couldn't agree more yeah that's it's it's interesting to hear that because what what strikes me matt is that, you know, behavior change is hard for people, right? And often we, it takes us multiple goes to get there. And it's a long journey, really, for most of us. I don't think we're ever there, really, because we can always fall off the wagon. Always. Yeah, completely.

Yeah, yeah, completely. I'm already planning a wagon fall off, which is really weird to say, but it's my wife's birthday next weekend. Right. And so I'm taking her. She doesn't know, by the way. I know you're seeing her, so it's a secret. But I'm taking her away to Venice for the weekend. So we're kind of going away.

And I'm like, right, so there's one restaurant which I'm going to eat, probably eat pasta in, and I i'm probably gonna have a dessert so right okay i'm like i've already got that in my head which is a very weird way to live but i've like um but the rest of the time i found places i can eat pretty well you know i'm just gonna have one meal where i eat what i want yeah no i think that's really reassuring for people that you know it's not that you're all in or you're all out you know you can um you. You can have an enjoyable life and eat well and feel good, and you can have things that you may not choose to have every day, but now and again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do know I will not feel good for doing that, is the thing, which is bizarre. You know, a lot of the time with my patients, I change that or I sort of make some food recommendations. I say, look, guys, you know, try this for three or four weeks and see how you go. And that's come back and see me and we'll have a chance. And it's amazing how life changing is for most people.

I can imagine. But, you know, let's say they come back after four weeks and the joint pain's gone and the skin's better and they've got more energy and the brain fog's gone, which is not uncommon, if I'm honest. And then they go on with their life. And then, you know, bit by bits, you know, bad habits can start to creep back in. Yeah. And often they'll come back and see me and say, you know, I was really naughty last week. I had this. And then, you know, my brain fog came back. And I said, said guys like you know let's think about the language you're not being naughty okay

you that's not you know sometimes i'll say oh i failed i said this is not failure this is part of the journey this is education right you've learned that when you eat well you feel fantastic and you've also learned that actually when the going gets tough and you actually make some different food choices you don't feel so good i said that i think that's a good thing because you the only way people i think sustain this long term is when they feel the difference and they can start put two and two together and go oh when i eat this this happens completely yeah yeah you know and i think until people get to that point you know i i say all the time nobody is going to follow my advice long term if they don't feel different you know you might do for two or three

weeks four weeks maybe two months but the only way that's going to go from actually oh i'm going to do what the doctor told me to actually being self-empowered to go right this is the way i choose to live my life is when people feel differently completely you know like i didn't realize that it wasn't normal to feel tired at 3 p.m in the afternoon yeah i didn't realize that wasn't normal like i always thought oh i just always get a little bit of a dip i need to pick me up at about 3 p.m i don't need that anymore which is um which is fascinating i'm in your book about um about denormalizing sugar that's been such a big thing to my household like um like it's been um it's been it's been it's been a process we're still kind of working on it but it's um but it's uh

it's it we did um we do a thing called Sugar-Free January. I saw it on social media. How did that go? It went really well. Like, it went really well. I mean, we just had no sugar for January, which is good because I think we talked about it briefly. But towards the end of the year, it's just insane the amount of sugar my kids are fed. You know, and not through any fault of my own. my kids are fed,

you know, and not, not through any thought of my own. Like, I mean, it's just like every day there's, they're coming back with something in their school bag from a friend or there's a Christmas card that comes with gold coins in it. Like, it's just like,

oh my God, you know, like it's just a every day and then Christmas comes and, you know, and you can indulge in Christmas. I think that's great, you know, but it's,

um, but you know, and then before you know it, it's Easter, you know, like it is, which is about to come on to us. So in January,uary so you're you've got kids who are under 10 yep yeah so i get it as adults some of us go on these kind of you know sugar-free weeks or sugar-free

yeah yeah um how did your kids take it um not very well they they didn't like it and at the beginning you know like but then but then i started making different things like i started to um i started to make uh like like like mixed yogurt with some like um with some jam that i got that didn't have any added sugar and stuff and so so they were having like a like i was finding ways to and also i baked some stuff which like was sugar-free which they really enjoyed you know so i found like treats and they i really look forward to these things like um like these little kind of like which is which i i was worried about myself i was like am i defeating the object here by you know by giving them these these sugar-free treats because it's still a reward system which they should you're right you know i was like maybe i'm defeating the whole object here

but um once i was just pleased to get through the month in the end but um but uh it's it's it's really helped us, I think, because now we think twice about how much they're having. And if they're going to go to a party, we say, I don't want you to have anything today because on Sunday you're going to be going to this party and it's out of my control, so you're probably going to have cake.

I don't want you to be the weird kid, which is wrong as well. Why should they have to be... This is something that strikes such a it strikes it's such a such a core within me i struggle with this you know as i think many parents do these days is what is the i mean we just rewind back a little bit you talked about 3 p.m yeah and you didn't know it was not normal to have a slump there yeah but actually unfortunately it is normal now. It's just not optimal.

It is the norm in society to have that, but it's not our biological norm. And I guess the same thing is with kids' parties. And I've got two kids under 10, and it drives me up the wall sometimes. And I just don't know what to do sometimes. I don't know whether I'm being over-the-top parents and trying to protect them too much. Because I've gone through periods where I just thought, God, I know what this do sometimes i don't know whether i'm being over the top parents and trying to protect them too much um you know because i've gone through periods where i just i just thought

god i know what this does to your body you know why would i want to put that into you yeah completely and as they get older they're you know you can't control their environment as much as you can when they're smaller once they start going to school and parties. And then one of the big problems I find is that, you know, if you're trying to be a healthy parent in 2018, certainly in the UK, I think you potentially risk sometimes making your kids a social outcast. Because, and I really struggle with that. Yeah, so do I. This is the problem. Like we've had, i've had so many conversations

about this with with people in my family you know about like um i know they're going to the party and i know they're going to be giving the mcdonald's and i'm refusing for my kids to eat that food so i've told them they're not allowed to and they and and they're like you know people are like well then they're going to have to say to the people, I don't eat that. And I'm like, I'm fine with that. Which is hard to say. It's hard. Because I know what... And also I feel like I'm enforcing something in them which in the long term will be good.

But in the short term may be detrimental. It's hard. It's so hard to make the right choice, isn't it? You know what? Sorry, go on, man. Because is one McDonald's going to hurt them that dramatically? I'm like, well, first of all, I don't know is the answer. I don't know exactly what that is doing.

I know that it's not doing very good stuff for them at that moment. But they're not going to have it again for a while is what comes back at me all the time. It's not like they're going to have it all the time. But yeah, but still, that kind of... And also, also that's like then you're enforcing something within them as yeah but it's it's if if you do something good you get something bad so you're rewarding your children with bad things yeah which i think is a bad system to have you know it's it's a challenge there's no doubt and i i you know i try and promote the best behaviors of my kids that i can but i i worry sometimes i'm going over the top with them and you know a lot of people will say you know kids are allowed treats but you know i i don't dispute

that what what i what i struggle with is the fact that treats and sugar have become the absolute norm you know my view is personally and I guess this is a little bit controversial but I've been doing a lot of work with um you know Jamie Oliver's team over the last few months yeah looking into schools and you know trying to trying to assess how we really make an impact here and we all kind of agree that schools should be what we call healthy zones so i think schools for me should be the model you know educationally academically behaviorally but also nutritionally because i if i want to give my kids a treat i don't want them to have had a load of treats at school which

then potentially impact what I can do with them I would much prefer that I think it's just again I've got to be careful not to put my view well this is my view my view is that actually schools in general should be healthy zones if parents how they choose to bring up their kids what they choose to give them I think that should be up to parents you know i you know a lot of people talk about nanny states and i get all that so i think parents should absolutely have the autonomy to do what they choose to do with their children yeah i just don't like how you know the way it is now in schools you know it's a in many schools and i look i appreciate many schools are trying to change this and and schools are under a lot of pressure i do understand that but i think we do

have an issue where you know one in five children start primary school in this country overweight or obese by the time is that one in five but by the time they've left primary school it's one in three oh my god so you've got to say on one level something ain't working yeah and um it's it's an incredible challenge um i mean you said what does this stuff do to you i think what a lot of people don't realize is that you know when we have let's say a fast food meal you can measure if you take your blood about an hour later or two hours later you can measure levels of inflammation in your body have gone up just from one fast food meal now look many things we do cause inflammation right i'm not saying

long term necessarily that's that's an issue but we know that you can actually you can have a whole food colorful meal full of really you know good sort of um lots of different colors and you know some broccolis and you know whatever just like a rainbow salad and you you won't get that same rise in inflammation as you do let's say when you go to a fast food and have a burger and fries and i don't we realize actually literally every time we have that we're inflaming our body now we've got to take a balanced perspective you know now and again it's not the end of the world i'm sure but what i worry is when they get a taste for this stuff is you know if they get a taste for this stuff are they going to want it

more because i know what it can taste like yeah completely yeah that's um yeah that's a worry isn't it it is a worry yeah and it's also it's that sorry no no go matt it's also that thing it's that reward system thing you, which is worrying to me, which is like, it's like, oh, you've done a good job, so you deserve something that is... Sweet. Sweet, exactly, which is like,

so it's just an ongoing thing, isn't it? My wife and I, we're really trying our best to change the wording that we use at home. We're not perfect. We're certainly trying. So, you you know then doing something great we're trying to think of um other things to reward them with like you know

you know you know a book you want so let's go to let's get the shop on let's buy that book now right well we look we've only just started we're just trying to alter the when rather than it be oh i've done this give me something sweet now because that then becomes conditioned doesn't it really that it really does and i notice it so much did you know there's a change in your children throughout january you know when they you you know you we'd have december madness as a way with all the treats everywhere at christmas when you had cut out the sugar for the duration of January, I'm really interested both for yourself but also as a father, did you notice anything different with your children?

Yeah, I mean, I noticed a less manic, like, behaviour sometimes. Like, I mean, it's not like my children are, you know, I'm sure every parent says, but much of them are pretty you know like a pretty great kids you know but sometimes there can be a mania that arises between them that can be you know just like um you know which is just um an influx of i think sugar you know like so so i didn't see any of that but you know i noticed the um i know it's the biggest effect on my littlest one. Like if my little one is like 20 months old and if someone gives her sugar, it's a dramatic, dramatic effect.

You know, and like it can be said, oh, it's only one biscuit. Look at the size of her, right? If I was to eat a biscuit in comparative size to her body to a biscuit, I'd be looking at like a bin lid biscuit. Do you know what I mean? That's a good point.

I've not thought about that. It's so huge, the amount of sugar she's putting in her body for how tiny her body is. But it's just normal to just give her a biscuit. And you give her a bit. That's such a massive amount of sugar for her size. Yeah, incredible. Yeah, you're right, actually.

I've never thought about it like that, the the you know proportion yeah yeah in relation to our weight and our size yeah yeah i mean it's just an it'd be it'd be like eating a bin lid size biscuit be humongous what difference did you notice in yourself um from sugar free january yeah uh what's the past um i i have a really bad relationship with sugar. It all ties into addiction. If I have it, I behave differently. I find myself craving it and doing things that I did when I had alcohol and drugs in my life. But I do it with sugar.

I'll find myself in the biscuit tin at 9.30 p.m. And I'll be eating them on my own so no one sees me. Do you know what I mean? This is behavior which I do not want in my life. And it's ridiculous and I hate it. So I try now to not really have any. But occasionally I will. Like I said, it's my wife's birthday so I'm going to have a piece of cake or a dessert.

But I'm not going to then go to the shop and buy every chocolate bar and take it back to my hotel room and gorge myself which is which is the tendency i have to do and i am i find myself like if i get in that rut like a couple of years ago i was in a i was in a bit of a sugar hole for a while and i found myself just eating it all the time and i know like i'm i'm i know what it's doing and i know how i'm behaving but sometimes it just gets into your behavior this is it when people say oh people everyone knows what to do they're just not doing

it in terms of health i don't buy it because you know i think all of us want to be as healthy as we can i genuinely believe that and i think if we're not making decent choices it's often because of underlying issues that we're sort of um and i think you know i think just putting it all on the individual is is i don't think it's that fair really i don't think it's fair i think it's a real it's a real um it's so much bigger than that you know because everyone does know you know that everyone does you should be there you mentioned that the sugar chaps are in my book and the reason i'm i called it denormalized sugar yeah i thought long and hard about this i went through a few different titles and i thought actually you know what i don't want to demonize

it yeah i'd say you can never have sugar again a in the modern world that is frankly going to be impossible yeah you just you know you're setting yourself up for failure right yeah yeah um but i kind of thought look we've always craved sugar now not necessarily all this refined sugar but we've always had it even things like honey hunter gatherers have had honey for you know thousands of years yeah it's a quick energy source yeah yeah but what's changed is that it's their breakfast lunch and dinner and snack time for all of us for many for seven days a week now so it's not necessarily that sugar in isolation is this thing we should never have i and that's where the name came denormalize it so you know if you want a sticky bun right now and again when you're out with your mates in a coffee shop okay have it

but don't kid yourself that day in day out that you know your cereal your sandwich your pasta with your ready mayo sauce don't don't kid yourself that you're not having sugar already you know the whole point of that chapter is to reset your relationship with sugar reset your taste buds because a lot of people also don't recognize that if you're used to having a lot of sugar you crave that sweetness so you know i used to have uh sugar in my tea years ago and the first time i I cut it out, I could barely stand it. But a few weeks later, I ended up picking up someone's tea at work, the wrong one, with sugar in it. And I had to spit it out because your taste buds can change that quickly.

Some say within two or three weeks. So once you've, I'm sure with your kids, they probably in January reset their relationship and their taste buds a a little bit so you're probably wanting a little bit less um but one of the final questions i was going to ask you is um you were in the gym you were recognizing that you weren't looking physically as good as you wanted to look, despite having cut out the booze, and someone gave you Rob Wolf's book. Yeah. Do you think if someone gave you Rob's book when you were 19 years old

and you were on tour with Busted, it would have had the same impact? I wouldn't have read it then. I don't think. I really wouldn't have. I think I was ready for... I was ready to read it at that point in my life. You know, like I needed it.

You know, like that's the big thing, isn't it? Like I think, I think if someone had given it to me, I'd like to say in the madness, you know, like people sat me down and in so many kind of authoritative figures sat me down throughout my life and said matt you need to watch what you're doing and i didn't listen but then i needed to listen and some and

suddenly stuff sunk in so i put it the same way with food like um you know like i think i hit a point where i was just you know unhappy and i couldn't you know and then someone gave me this book and it all made sense yeah it's the right time right the right time and this goes back to what you're saying when you when you when you discover the power of food you're telling everyone like i did yeah and actually become irritating and actually people don't want to hear it and i was actually yeah you know what i and i have so many patients or friends who say oh you know dr chachi i love what you're doing i love your book but my partner my husband i can't get him on board you know i keep trying and i, you know, Dr. Chachi, I love what you're doing. I love your book, but my partner, my husband, I can't get him on board. You know, I keep trying.

And I said, you know what the problem is? The problem is that you're trying to change them. And, you know, it just, it rarely works. You know, people have got to be ready for it. They've got to be open to it. Yeah, that's so true. And hopefully eventually they will, you know, but they'll come to that conclusion themselves, I think. Yeah, and I say to people, just try and hopefully eventually they will you know but they'll come to that conclusion themselves i think yeah and i said i said we were just trying to be the example

you know don't um you know don't get all evangelical about it don't sort of overly preach about it just get on with your stuff that's what i do when i'm out of it then i just choose my healthy food if people don't want to have it i don't comment i genuinely don't judge one of the things i've tried really hard over the last few years, as really as much as possible, I just try not to judge people. I'm very open. Everyone's making the choices they want to make. And I've got control over my choices.

That's what I'm going to do. I try and control my children's choices. But everyone else, I'm like, hey, guys, you know. Yeah, man, it's going to be life. Yeah. Matt, look um you've been a very very insightful guest for me to interview and it's a very different guest for listeners of this podcast so far what i've you know i think people are really going to enjoy uh the conversation

i think they'll have learned a lot from your insights what i've done with health experts is I often leave them giving some sort of tips to the listeners you know in terms of what they think the best things are to help improve their health and you know I'm not saying it's a fair question for you necessarily I'm I'm just sort of thinking in everything that you've learned on your journey in your work in your health journey as a father um are there any things you can leave the listener with you know i was trying to leave them something that they can think about as they turn off the podcast do you know i just um i have i have i have no idea i think um one of the biggest impacts is i um i do a thing um called the five minute journal right which um I do every morning

and every evening and it's made such a big impact on my life just it's like a little it sounds a bit hippie but it's like a gratitude list right and I do it every morning and every evening and I love it you know it sets me up for the day like I write a little it takes two minutes in the morning and this is not even like nutrition related this is about what i'm kind of grateful for in my life at that moment and i thought this was rubbish when people told me about this kind of stuff i thought it was complete you know nonsense you know and um and i can't tell you how much of an impact it's had on my life like i look forward to doing it and at the end of the day i write down some things some amazing things that happened in my day

and i go to bed and i sleep better i kind of um i wake up in them and and literally this thing can change my mood if i wake up sometimes i think we wake up in a certain mindset i don't know why but um this little thing i can do two minutes in the morning two minutes in the evening and it changes my mood and changes the trajectory of my day matt that is so incredibly helpful and you know i was i was that's such a small thing i've seen some of the science on gratitude and journaling uh i know tim ferris talks about journaling a lot um i've i've experienced the benefits myself yeah um but you do it as a regular practice what two minutes in the morning two minutes at night it's called the five minute journal it never takes me

more than two minutes in the morning if you've got a book that you do it in i've got an app on my phone literally i wake up in the morning i do it on my phone like um like uh and and i do it in before like in the evening i don't i try not to have my phone on in the bedroom so i do it like before i'll go to bed in the evening and um and uh and that's um and it's just i love it and plus i attach a photo to it that i've taken throughout the day you know so then i can look back on it sometimes and go oh wow this was happening it's a really nice thing matt that's an incredible uh bit of insight to leave the listeners with thank you for that matt i can't say how much you enjoy the chat

i wish you all the best on your health journey i wish you all the best with um you know getting in the studio and recording thanks but also and i hope very much you can get in shape for this film without it sort of bringing up sort of unhealthy behaviors so we'll stay in touch let me know and i will maybe we'll get you back on in a few months and see how you got on brilliant thanks a lot rungan thank you that concludes the latest conversation on my feel better live more podcast i hope you enjoyed it if you did please do take a screenshot of this page on your phone right now and post it on social media please do tag me on instagram instagram stories facebook and twitter and please do use the hashtag feel better live more i want this podcast to help transform the health

of as many people as possible so if you could also leave a five-star review on itunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts that also helps me spread this message further i'm always open to more suggestions so again please let me know on social. I'm always open to more suggestions. So again, please let me know on social media if you've got any more suggestions on people you would like to see me interview on this podcast. Thanks for listening. And I hope you can join me next time.