Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #177 How to Build Exceptional Relationships and Why You Should with David Bradford and Carole Robin

Episode Date: April 27, 2021

I believe that in many ways, the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives. Good quality relationships help us with our physical health, our mental health and our happiness. Today, I’m delighted to welcome two fantastic guests who are experts on how we can all build exceptional relationships. David Bradford and Carole Robin taught interpersonal skills to MBA students for a combined seventy-five years in their legendary Stanford course, Interpersonal Dynamics (affectionately known to students as “Touchy-Feely”). They have also coached and consulted with hundreds of executives all over the globe. Now, they’ve brought their invaluable lessons to all of us, in their fabulous book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues. We begin the conversation by defining what exceptional relationships are and why it is so important for us to have them in our lives. We talk about the concept of being ‘over the net’, which is a brilliant tool that you can use in interactions with others to make sure that you’re only ever owning your reality – not telling other people how they’re feeling or what they’re doing wrong. We talk about the risk involved in raising issues in a relationship and how we might prefer to avoid confrontation. But while there’s a risk in expressing your feelings, there is a cost to silence. David and Carole share a powerful example of a major setback in their own friendship, and how they managed to overcome it. There’s much more to discover in this conversation, including thoughts on parent-child relationships, friendships that are no longer nourishing, and how we can improve our digital interactions. David and Carole’s world-famous course may be taught around leadership, but their wisdom is relevant to us all. I thoroughly enjoyed having this conversation and I hope you enjoy listening. Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/177 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Where has this been all my life? How come nobody ever taught me how to handle a conflict productively? How come nobody ever taught me that actually conflict can build an even stronger relationship? How come nobody ever told me more about how to learn about myself? You have a choice to take a risk and become better known. You have a choice to get more curious. a risk and become better known. You have a choice to get more curious. You have a choice about receiving a piece of feedback as a gift and a data with which you can make more choices. You have a choice about whether or not you want to keep learning and growing.

Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better Live More. Today's conversation is all about relationships and as you may have heard me say before, the quality of our relationships in many ways determines the quality of our lives. Yes, it feels good to have close nourishing relationships, but it's so much more than just feeling good. Good quality relationships help us with our physical health, our mental health, and our happiness. So on today's show, I am delighted to welcome two fantastic guests who are without question experts on how we can all build exceptional relationships. David Bradford and Carol Robin have taught interpersonal skills to MBA students

at the prestigious Stanford University for a combined 75 years in their legendary course, officially called Interpersonal Dynamics, but affectionately known to the students as Touchy Feely. They've also coached and consulted with thousands of executives all over the globe. And now they've brought their invaluable lessons to all of us in their fabulous book, Connect, Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues. Now we start off our conversation defining what an exceptional relationship actually is and why it's so important for us to have them in our lives. We talk about their concept of being over the net, which is a brilliant tool that you can use in all your interactions with

others to make sure that you're only ever owning your reality, not telling other people about how they're feeling or what they're doing wrong. And I have to say, if all you do is listen to this conversation and understand and then practice this concept of being over the net, I am confident that many of the relationships in your life will improve immeasurably. It really is that powerful. We also talk about the risk involved in raising issues in a relationship and how we might prefer to avoid confrontation. But while there's a risk in expressing your feelings, there's also a big cost to silence. In fact, David and Carol share a powerful example of a major setback in their own friendship and how they managed to successfully overcome it. Carol and David cover so much ground

in this week's conversation, including their thoughts on parent-child relationships, friendships that are no longer nourishing, and how we can improve our digital interactions. Their world-famous course may be taught around leadership, but their wisdom is relevant to each and every single one of us. I thoroughly enjoyed having this conversation. I've already started to put into practice some of the tools that I've learned from them. I really think you are going to enjoy listening. And now, what I thought was an exceptional conversation with two exceptional people, David Bradford and Carol Robbie. How would you define an exceptional relationship and why should we be striving to have more of them

in our lives? Well, let me answer the first part. As we observed this, we saw six core competencies. One was, to what extent can I be myself? Not spin an image, not to pretend to be something else. Second, to what extent could I build conditions where you could be more yourself, where we can be more human beings with each other? Third, a notion that if I do share myself and tell you personal things, you won't use it against me, and I won't use your information against you. Fourth, can we be honest with each other? Can we tell the truth and not have to read between the lines? Fifth, we're going to disagree, and that's okay. And can we raise it and not shove it out of the rug? And can we resolve it in a way that also further strengthens the relationship? And finally, can we be committed to each other's growth

and maybe raise the difficult issues because we believe the other, we care for the other, and we believe the other can be even better than they are? And I'll pick up on the why. And before I go there, I want to just underscore that relationships exist on a continuum. And at one end of the continuum is contact, no real connection. At the other end of the continuum is this notion of exceptional that David just described. And on your way to exceptional, along all these dimensions, as you develop more of them, you actually develop a more robust, functional relationship. So the entire world would be better off if we could move the needle

along the continuum so that way more relationships would be functional and robust and healthier. And that applies to families and communities and teams and organizations. The idea, what we noticed or what we came to understand through the course was that we're not advocating you try to turn every relationship in your life into exceptional. That would both be exhausting and impossible. On the other hand, shouldn't you have the capacity to move at least some of your relationships to that level if you want to, especially if you both want to? And so, you know, you might have one person like that in your life. Maybe if you're lucky, by the way, because a lot of people don't have any.

But you might want to have, you know, a handful, three, four, five. And so the book actually is meant to both expand your capacity to create much better relationships with everybody and take a few of those to this whole different level. It's interesting that this course that you both taught for many, many years at Stanford Business School, it strikes me that although the course was taught around leadership to some really highly bright, highly academic students at Stanford, that the principles really apply to each and every single one of us in work, in family, in love relationships, in work relationships, whatever they are. And David, when you were reading out those six hallmarks of exceptional relationships, what I was struck by is number

three was you trust that self-disclosures will not be used against you. Number four, you can be honest with each other. Number five, you deal with conflict productively. Now, if I think about one of the most important relationships to many people, it's their partner or who they are married to. And I know many marriages, both personally, but also in my 20 years as a doctor, when I see patients complaining about their relationships and the impact it's having on their health, number three and number five are often not there. You trust that self-disclosures will not be used against you and you deal with conflict productively. So it's very striking for me at the start of this conversation,

our marriages or some of our marriages, some of our love relationships may not yet have every component of an exceptional relationship. And I think that that's sad. And I think one of the reasons is to build a relationship, to build a sort of robust relationship that Carol talked about, you often have to raise the issues that could risk it. And I've been married 56 years, and there have been many times where I've said to myself, oh, do I really want to raise this? And I'm not saying one should raise everything, but we often err on the side of being too cautious. And I think that what I've usually found is that when I take the risk of raising it with the intention not to bludgeon the other person, not to attack them, but because I'm hurting and I want something more, usually the risk works out.

Not to be trite, of course, but no risk, no reward. of course, but no risk, no reward. And, you know, to your point, Rangan, we get, both David and I get calls and emails from students, not just the, oh, you know, I got promoted to CEO because of what I learned from you. We get, I'm pretty sure your course just saved my marriage. Or my, you know, what I learned from you just helped me reconcile my relationship with my brother who I hadn't talked to for a year. That's why it's so powerful. And that's why it's become such a legend. So let's go back to the start, because I think the origin story here is well worth diving into. So my understanding from the research I've done is that David, you started running this course around 45 years ago, and then Carol,

you joined about 25 years ago. So feel free to fact check that if I'm slightly out of the loop, but that's certainly what I've read when doing my research. So that's a long time, 45 years of running this. So David, at the start, what was your incentive to do this? Were there relationship conflicts you were having in your own life that led you down this path? What was behind setting up this course? And actually, were they receptive at Stanford to a course like this all the way back then? Well, it was really 55 years ago, that's a minor point. And I didn't start it, to be honest.

Another professor started and didn't get tenure, and I was hired to teach the course. Yes, to speak to your last point, the school was a little ambivalent about it, but because it started to get such positive student response, the school said, well, we're not sure we fully understand it, but the students love it, so we're going to do it. I think my motivation is I've always been concerned with relationships, and actually the methodology of this course was one I knew before coming to Stanford. It just made such a difference to me personally when I didn't have to pretend, when I could have that relationship. And I'm sure you know the feeling when you start to talk and you go, you know, I can take off some of my armor, some of my protective armor. And then I was also consulting in organizations, and I was seeing the waste when people avoided

issues, talked around things, or attacked each other unproductively. So I think I was personally thirsty for this, wanting it, and loving it when I had it, and deeply gratified when I saw the students respond to it. Carol, you've also been really intrigued with this. This has been central to your life, too. Yeah, I have a slightly different and much more circuitous story because, of course, I've had many careers. Unlike David, who who spent his life in academia, I had like five careers before I came to Stanford. And but I remember vividly I was thinking about this last night. In fact, running in anticipation of this of this call, I was thinking about my first T group.

of this call, I was thinking about my first T group, the T standing for training, not therapy, just for the record for all the people listening. And my first T group was 25 years ago. And I remember vividly this experience of finding an unending source of strength in a modality that helped me learn more about who I was and how to connect with other people. It was literally life changing in the moment. It's like, oh, I've always been fascinated by people. And even though I've had lots of different careers, the through and I've always been fascinated by people. And even though I've had lots of different careers, the through line is always my fascination with people. And this was a whole new window that opened up for me. And I thought, I mean, I had, I had been a manager, I'd run $50 million business, I'd been an executive recruiter, I'd been a consultant,

and suddenly I was like, oh, wait, this, whatever is happening right here, this is what I want to dedicate the rest of my life to. I want to help people have the experience that not only I just had, but I just saw all the people in this room have. And that's what brought me to David's door. One of the members of my dissertation committee had known David's father actually very well, and David. And he said to me, you know, you should go meet David Bradford over there at Stanford. They've got this course that's like becoming more and more popular,

and I think they need more people to teach it. So go meet David Bradford. And so I walked into David Bradford's office and said, hi. The rest, as they say, is history. And the more I got involved in it, the more it became clear to me that for me, this was my life's calling. I was put on this planet to bring this to as many people as I possibly can. You said a couple of really interesting things there for me, Carol. You said it helps you to get to know yourself better and also how to connect with others. And that is something I really want to dive deep with you both during this conversation because, you know, for me, what is my interest here? Well, I'm a human being, so I would like, you know, a better ability to interact with my children, with my wife,

with my work colleagues. So there's a personal desire to improve my skills and frankly, skills I don't think I was ever taught. And we can maybe talk about that later. I don't think I was ever taught, and we can maybe talk about that later. But there's also a professional interest. And my second book on stress, I wrote about this, a quarter of the book on relationships and said that the number one factor in having a long, healthy, and happy life is the quality of your relationship. So having close, nourishing relationships helps us reduce stress in our life. But at the same time, it works the other way. Having too much stress in our life and being too busy and rushing around all the time can sometimes make it harder

to have those close nourishing exceptional relationships, right? So it kind of works both ways. So I've got a deep personal and professional interest here. I'm just really fascinated as to, you know, why has it proved so popular, right? You've got very able students at Stanford, you know, they're probably not going to Stanford, at least initially, to learn about relationships, to learn about how to interact with others. They're probably straight A students who are like, okay, I'm going to learn the skills, I'm going to go out and I'm going to, you know, go and crush it when I start working. So why has it proved so popular? I've seen some stats that

it's 85% of what is it? Can you can you tell that stat is? And then please explain to me why it's proven such a hit with the students year after year. Well, first, I want to say that students don't go get MBAs to learn how to have better relationships. But a lot of them choose Stanford instead of other very famous, very well-known business schools because of this course. I've had many, many students tell me they chose Stanford over that other very well-known business school in the East because they knew that if they came to Stanford, they would emerge better human beings. Not just better leaders, but better human beings. And it's all because of this course.

So, of course, by now, it's a legend. It's a flywheel. And so students come to choose Stanford for a reason. So most of them are going to take the course. Now, some of the answer, and I'd love to hear what David might want to add about this, but some of the answer to your question is that they have a lot of that same experience I had in my first T group, which was, where has this been all my life? How come nobody ever taught me how to handle a conflict productively? How come nobody

ever taught me that actually conflict can build an even stronger relationship? How come nobody ever told me more about how to learn about myself? So it's the process of discovery that is so transformative that, and all they have to do is have the experience and then they tell other students and then alums tell students who come, whatever you do, this is one class you should not miss, even though it's an elective. And we would never turn it into a required class.

Let me build on that. And what Carol is saying is, you're right, Rangan, that our students are bright, they've got straight A's and so on. But they also walk around with a notion that if I'm to be a leader, if I'm to be influential, if I'm to be popular, if I'm to be sexy, whatever it is, I have to pretend to be something that I'm not. And so much of the world holds that view. And what happens in this course over the 10 weeks is students take the risk of letting themselves be known, taking the risk of sharing parts of themselves. I think this is what Carol really experienced that first time,

and we see it all the time, of saying something that might get me rejected, that might get me seen less of. And what they experience is that their peers say, now that I know you, the real you, you're much more influential. I'd want to follow you if you were a leader. So it's so personally validating because the other problem with an image is if in the short run the image works, it's further devaluing because it just confirms my fear that the real me won't work. And that's such a destructive self-concept. And so when you have these open relationships and I can say things, I can take the risk of being myself, not of sharing everything, but sharing things that are most relevant to our relationship,

I get validated. And that is so important. Yeah. There are so many things to pick up on there. I'm sort of drawn to this quote that you both put in your wonderful book. We're so used to disguising ourselves to others that in the end, we become disguised to ourselves. It's so powerful because you see this all the time. I've experienced this myself. I think we all have when we try and be somebody who we're not. And after a while, you actually, you forgot actually, who am I really? Who am I when I strip away this kind of image that I've created in front of other people? Something I've shared on this podcast many times in the past is that this podcast has really helped me through these conversations, which I hope some of them are exceptional conversations.

which I hope some of them are exceptional conversations, but I really feel that it's helped me shed some of these images and think, well, you know, it's too exhausting to try and portray an image of you. And I just think, well, you know what? I'm just going to be myself, warts and all, you know, for my strengths, my weaknesses, my insecurities. And it's so freeing. There's a freedom when you learn how to be yourself. That's exactly what I was going to say, is it's such a trap

to have an image, as David says, especially one that works for a while, and then it becomes a trap. Now I'm really afraid to let you in to what's really going on and who I really am. Because, gosh, maybe you like this spun image and you won't like the real me. And so there's something about creating an environment where people can test that. You know, that's a mental model. We have them throughout the book, right? Beliefs and assumptions. Oh, if I do this, this will happen.

we have them throughout the book right beliefs and assumptions oh if i do this this will happen well it turns out that that there's no way to actually know that until you test it and and so developing environments or relationships you don't even have to be in a t-group you could just develop a relationship with someone else where you get to test some of these beliefs and find out oh wait i, I've always thought that if I showed you that I'm actually pretty insecure and scared half the time, I always thought you'd think less of me. It turns out you feel more drawn to me and you can relate to me better. Who knew? Yeah. And what is so one of my favorite things about the book is these case studies that sort of interweave, they come in and out throughout the book is these case studies that sort of interweave. They come

in and out throughout the book, because frankly, I challenge anyone to read the book and not see parts of themselves in not just one, in various different case studies. You see, oh, yeah, I can kind of resonate with that a little bit here and that a little bit there. Let's get into some of these principles, because I know you're a big believer that every relationship is unique and what works for one may not work for another. But there are these common principles that I think we can all learn. And I've got a few I'd love to go through. But if the only thing people take from this conversation is understanding over the net, I think it would transform so many relationships, just that one

principle. So I wonder if you could both share what is over the net and why is it so important? Okay. To start with, we have to be a little complex, so bear with us. They're actually, in interaction, three realities. One reality is my intention, my motivation. So right now, I intend to be clear, I intend to be helpful. Second reality is my behavior. What do I do? What do I say? My words, my tone.

And the third is the impact on you. I don't know that third. And not only that, you don't know my first. Each of us have two of the three realities. To build a relationship, I often need to raise the issues that get in the way. It's called giving feedback. And in giving feedback, we do it in a way that tends not to be functional. We don't stick with our reality, our expertise.

So the net concept is think of tennis. And there is a tennis net between the first and the second reality, between my intentions and my behavior. You can't play tennis. You can't play in the other person's backcourt. You got to stay in your court. But most feedback is over the net. So if I do something that bothers you and you say, well, David, you just want to dominate. Well, hell, you don't know what I want. You're over the net. Or David, you just want to show how smart you are. Or David, you're just this. And so we say, stick with your reality. So I remember a time when a person said, frowned and said, I'm bothered. And I said, well, Donald, what's the matter? And he said, you interrupted me. Now, if he would have,

and I said, yes. And he said, that's inconsiderate. Now, it would have been more accurate if he would have said, I feel put down. I feel not being honored or considered. That would have been really his reality. But he was telling me the impact of my behavior. And by doing that, I could then say, wow, wasn't my intention, but I guess I'm doing something that I don't want to do. So if we could stick with, how does your behavior affect me? What does it make me feel like? How is it likely to impact my results and my way of interacting with you? We can say an awful lot more. But when we go over the net and make imputations of the other's motives and intentions, the other person feels defensive, resistant, and it hurts the relationship.

So you're right. It's a key concept. And it's so hard for people not to make attributions of the other person's motives and intentions. And it's so damaging and so dangerous. Carol, before you respond, I just want to ask that because I think it's a great example, David, that I understand we've got these three, any given interaction between two people, there's three realities. We can only know two of those three realities.

two people, there's three realities. We can only know two of those three realities. The problems often arise and start to escalate in relationships when we try and pretend or make an assumption about that third reality that we know nothing of, really. So you mentioned people get defensive when we start to make that, I guess, judgment. It is often in many cases, in all cases. I want to, Carol, perhaps if you could just explain, why should we not go onto the other side of the net? What is the problem when we do that? And maybe you could bring up some other common everyday examples just to really bring this home for people. Sure. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show.

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So reality number two, the only reality known to both of you is that your colleague has arrived to meetings late. That's a fact. We know that. And by the way, reality number two is something that anybody watching a video would say, yeah, that's what happened. Okay. That's the reality known to both of you. Now, I'll put it in first person. Now, I'm irritated. That's reality number three. The impact of you arriving consistently late on me is that I am irritated. that's the third time that you've arrived late and I'm finding myself getting more and more irritated. And I'm telling you this because I don't think either one of us is well served by my being irritated. I say something like, well, obviously this meeting isn't very important to you. That is over the net. I have no idea whether the meeting is important to you or not. I am playing in your court. And, or I say something like, I feel that you don't care, which by the way, doesn't have a single feeling word in it, which is why the vocabulary of feelings is such

an important part of staying on your side of the net. I feel that you don't care is an attribution. You don't know whether, I don't know whether you care or not, unless you say I don't care. So if I say, I feel that you don't care, or this is obviously not important to you, and you do care, and it is important to you, are you going to be more inclined to step to get into a problem solving conversation with me? Or are you just going to defend yourself and say, of course I care? Or, you know, you know, that, you know, that you're not going to say, huh, you're irritated. I wonder if we should talk about this some more uh you're going you know of course I care and uh you know you're wrong you know I might I might and so now we don't get anywhere yeah so unless I learn to say I feel irritated or I feel worried or I feel that's why the vocabulary of feelings is so

important it's all it's grammatically impossible in English to express a feeling and start with the words I feel like or I feel that the minute you do that you are in all probably going to be over the net because you're going to make an attribution or you're going to impute a motive i feel like you don't care i feel that it doesn't matter to you i feel uh like uh i like i don't matter to any of those things are over the net yeah it does that help answer your question it really does and and the truth is that applies to all kinds of different relationships. But I would hazard a guess that many people in relationships are going to pause the podcast at that moment and send it to their other halves and say, do you want to just have a little listen to this? That would be my suspicion. Let's find out

when the episode comes out, what feedback there is. find out when the episode comes out, what feedback there is. Well, in fact, Rangan, you know, I think this example is in the book. Well, and people love this example so much because I talk about how my husband used to come home after a long day's work, collapse on the chair, and I'd come zooming around the corner, having been home with two little kids, desperate for adult interaction. And I'd start talking. And the only thing he would do is, you know, in those days, we still read newspapers. So he would, he would look at the newspaper and he would say, uh-huh, uh-huh. And I would say, you're not listening. You're not listening is over the net. I am not in his head. I don't know whether he's listening or not.

So then of course he'd say, yeah, I am. You went to that nursery school, you're all worked up. And then I'd be even more enraged. It wasn't until I learned to say, honey, when I'm speaking and you make no eye contact and the only answer I get is a grunt, I don't feel heard. That's entirely on my side of the net. Carol, let me just pause you there because there was a key point there for me. So I get it. When you say you're not listening to me, you're on the other side of the net. That can lead to all kinds of problems, defensiveness, you know, a battle back saying, no, I was listening, you know, whatever, that could spiral out of control. But then the next thing you said, I thought was really key. Even if you had said, I feel as though you're not listening, that's still over the net, isn't it? Because I think this is a really key

point that I really want us to pause on, because I had to reread the section a few times just to really lodge it in my head because I think sometimes that the progression from going oh that's over the net I'll say okay you know I'm not going to accuse him but I'm just going to say that I feel as if you're not listening but you would also what I mean why is that problematic as well because it's not a feeling there's a trouble is the English language we use I feel in two different ways, which is what Carol's trying to say. We use it for an opinion. And so if you could replace I feel with I think, and it still makes sense, that ain't a feeling. I feel, as Carol is saying, can be a feeling. I feel upset. I feel dismissed. Or it could be a thought. And you asked, Rangan, about why this is important. Not only does it create defensiveness, but the other person can say, no, you're wrong. And so you lose influence. But when you stick with your reality, it's indisputable. So when Carol said, I don't feel heard, I don't feel, or even I don't feel cared for, Andy couldn't say, no, you don't. He'd be over her net.

So it's much more impactful as well as much more connecting because Carol is showing what's important to her. Feelings tell us what's important. what's important to her. Feelings tell us what's important. And the trouble is we tend to dismiss feelings because we so much stress thoughts. Yeah. That's why the course is called Touchy Feely by the students. For a reason. What if someone doesn't have a wide emotional vocabulary? You know, it's not something that is particularly, I was going to say well taught. I don't think it's taught full stop at school. Certainly it wasn't when I was at school. I don't see any evidence of that's changed, certainly with my kids, when I hear about what they're learning at school. when I hear about what they're learning at school. How can somebody, and I'm interested,

you know, David, over these 45, 55 years, you know, have you seen a difference in what people's ability is putting this stuff into practice? You know, did students 40 years ago have a better wider emotional vocabulary? Has technology changed things now, whereas the students coming in now, I don't know, have got more limited? What is going on there and how can we help people who actually don't know how to describe their feelings? Yeah, there's been a dramatic change in the last 55 years. It was not unusual 55 years ago in these groups where we'd ask the student, well, what are you feeling? And they would say, I don't know what I'm feeling. I don't even know if I'm feeling. So I think you're right. The whole educational system So, I think you're right. The whole educational system stresses rationality. That doesn't mean it also can't

bring in feelings. And I think at least in the U.S., in some of the primary and even secondary schools, there is a little bit more of that. So we've seen a change with people more in touch with their feelings, not as much as they should be. Now, I think part of that has been helped because of the seminal work that Daniel Goldman did on emotional intelligence, which showed the central role in being an effective leader as well as an effective person was being in touch with feelings. But we make a short copy of that vocabulary of feelings that Carol was talking about, and we give it to students. And often in their interaction, they'll have this piece of paper on their lap. And somebody will say, well, what are you feeling, Sam?

And Sam will look down and say, I am feeling, and has to find it. And in this process of stressing what you're feeling, they get more and more in touch with it. But you're right, we all could do a much better job. Now, we may not in the moment know it. Carol and I have been teaching this for decades. And there are times in our interactions, particularly when we're bothered, when we don't know immediately. And we say, hey, wait a minute. I need a moment to tune in. So it's hard. It's challenging. And I think people are getting better and need to be much better. Carol, why don't you talk about the two antennae? I think that really speaks here. Yeah. I was going to say that one of the things we talk about in the book and with our students is to think in terms of two antenna. One which is wired to pick up signals on what's going on for me.

That might be called an intrapersonal antenna. And the other one that's wired to try to pick up signals on what might be going on for you. to try to pick up signals on what might be going on for you. And part of this work and part of the skills and competencies here, it helps you tune into even more subtle signals on both antenna. And if we go all the way back to the beginning, when I talked about what I learned about myself and continue to learn in all this work, self and continue to learn in all this work is how certain feelings are really are much harder for me to access. And then of course, that takes me into an exploration of what's that about?

How come anger is so much harder for me to even allow myself to feel than sadness? And that's me. And yours might have a whole different construct. And I think it was because, I mean, in my case, I never saw anger expressed in a way that looked productive. And it was scary. And so rather than learn how to express anger, I learned to suppress it. That does not really do me any good. And it doesn't anybody do anybody I'm interacting with any good. So this work has helped me. I mean, of course, there's also therapy. But let's just set that one aside. It's just been liberating, we're back to liberating, to allow myself to feel angry, to allow myself to express anger, connecting in an odd kind of way. Because even though anger can be very distancing in the moment, it's also very honest and very raw. extent that I've learned how to express it in a way that might in the moment distance you, but then also include my reason for wanting us to have the conversation and where I hope we end up

actually brings us closer. If I don't say it at all and I sweep it under the rug, we don't get closer. Yeah. It's what you do when I say I'm angry. And I want to come full cycle to that whole notion of the net and staying with your reality. So I can say, hey, Carol, I'm really angry when you did X. And I feel dismissed. I feel unimportant because of all the work I've done. That's different than saying, Carol, I feel angry because you are an inconsiderate person. See the dramatic difference in the first one, I'm owning what's going on for me. And that's

the part that is connecting because Carol then can say and does say, God, what have I done? What's going on? But the second one distances us. So anger is what you follow it with. I mean, this sort of example, you know, I'm drawn to that word risk a lot that has come up a couple of times in this conversation. And I guess, Carol, if we go back to the example of you talking to your husband and you've been at home with the kids, he comes back. Yeah. You felt upset. Yes. When you didn't get an indication from him that he was listening to you, right? So maybe that wasn't... Go on, please. So I didn't feel heard. And when I don't feel heard, I feel dismissed, and I feel distanced, and I feel resentful. And I felt those things because he made no eye contact,

and the only response I got was a grunt. Okay. So you've stayed on your side of the net and you've explained that and you've, you've, you've explained how you felt as a result of his behaviors. Exactly. Got it. So there is a risk that isn't there because by opening up by being vulnerable by expressing how you felt you are on one hand risking real rejection because if at that point your husband but this could be any relationship if at that point there is nothing coming back. That in some ways, I don't know, is that a worse situation? Because you have risked expressing what is going on inside your heart and then someone ignores that. And there's this bit in the book also where you said there's a cost to silence. So I thought that

was a beautiful sort of almost conflict. There's a risk to opening up, but there's a cost to silence. So I think it's really important at this juncture to come back to the fact that, A, stay on your side of the net. And B, tell the other person what your intent is in saying what you've said. So when I said, Andy, when you don't make eye contact and all I get is a grunt, I don't feel heard. And then I feel dismissed and sad. And I'm telling you this because when I feel more distanced from you, I can't be there for you in the way I want to be there for you. So now he can still say, I don't care. So it is a risk. You're right. But it's less likely that he's going to respond with that if I've told him what I'm hoping the outcome will be of having told him.

to the purpose of feedback. The purpose of feedback is to move into a problem solving conversation, not to change somebody else. And by the way, net jumping invites net jumping. If I just said, I feel that you don't care and I feel that you're insensitive, then he says, well, I feel that you're really too needy. And now we've really got a problem. Yeah. And I think I can't imagine there is anybody who is listening right now who has not been in that situation at some point in their life. Net jumping leads to more net jumping and just accusations coming left, right and center. And then you almost forgotten what the problem was in the first place. Right. And you've especially forgotten what the purpose of telling the person was. We have a problem that I would like to talk about how to solve. So when I'm able to stay on my side of the net and say what I say to Andy, then Andy can look

at me and say, well, honey, if you want my undivided attention, you're going to have to give me a half an hour to unwind when I get home from the office. And then I think, well, in fact, I say half an hour. Are you kidding? I've been counting the minutes for you to get home. How about five minutes? We settled on 15. More time than I wanted to give him, less time than he needed. But guess what? After that, I waited. And then I got his attention. And he made eye contact. And we had a conversation. And so instead of escalating, not only did we de-escalate by my staying on my side of the net, but we moved into problem solving. It's often hard in the moment to get it exactly right. So let's play out the worst scenario. So let's assume that Carol had made an accusation

and Andy had responded in kind. We don't have to do this perfectly. Hopefully with this model, this realization, one or both can say, hey, wait a minute. This isn't working. We're both attacking each other. And so you can stop this. And what is really very helpful is could Andy have said, honey, what's going on with you? And that might have cued her to get back to feelings. Or she could have said, hey, wait a minute. I just realized I attacked you. And that might have cued her to get back to feelings. Or she could have said,

hey, wait a minute. I just realized I attacked you. Let's step back. So I don't want the audience to think you've got to do this perfectly. But the power of this model is allows you to correct and improve when you do make a mistake, because we all make mistakes. And in fact, my cousin, who's a journalist, knew about my work, but after she read the book, and she said to her husband, you've got to read this book too. So he read it too. And now they've got a shortcut. I think that was over the net. And immediately, they both know what they're talking about. of course that's what our students in fact not just i mean the entire stanford gsb graduate school business culture that language is part of the culture yeah you're over the net and everybody knows what that means

yeah i mean what i love about that is that clearly many on many occasions during this conversation on many occasions during the book, it is very clear that language matters. The way we use language absolutely determines the quality of our relationships. And then if you can, with your partner, with your work colleagues, with your friends, have a common vernacular that you're all using, that you all know the meaning, I guess in some ways it takes the emotional sting out of it. Because if someone sort of says that's over the net, you know what? Yeah, you're right. Actually, that was over the net, wasn't it? And it almost, I really like that. And I feel I can see how that's in the culture

at Stanford. I would hazard a guess that many of those graduates have brought that terminology into their companies. Is that right? Correct. Yes. Not as many as we'd like, but certainly many. Because of course, we'd like everyone to have that vernacular. Yeah. No, I think it's brilliant. And it's very non-judgmental. It's very factual. It's super nice. Another thing in that example, what I love about it, I think it's a very relatable example, Carol. So I'm sorry to keep coming back to it, but I think we can use that and sort of, you know, we can probably demonstrate quite a few points on the back of that. So this idea that there's a cost to silence, right? So let's just imagine, and I think pinch points,

which is another beautiful section of the book, comes in nicely here. That let's say, you know, you're feeling the way that you're feeling. You're not feeling hurt. I think that was a feeling. You're not feeling hurt. Okay, I'm getting there. But you chose not to say anything because you thought, you know what? I don't know. Maybe you might have thought he looks tired. He's had a long day at work. Okay. So that's maybe you

understanding what might be going on inside. But again, you would be speculating, I guess, because you don't know that. But what would happen? Let's play it out that you said nothing and it would keep happening night after night. How might that scenario play out? Well, that's a great example of how a pinch can grow into a crunch. So the first time it happens, it's a pinch. I feel unheard. I feel dismissed. I let it go. Happens the next night. It happens. go. Happens the next night. It happened. Now I feel a little worse about it. And I let it go. And you know, we talk about this in the book with pinches, we tend to say, it's not worth it.

And instead, we urge people to replace the pronoun with the word I, you or we, I'm not worth it, you're not worth it, Or we're not worth it. And then ask yourself again whether it's worth raising. So what happens is if I don't say anything, it's a week later and Andy says something and I bite his head off over it. Well, maybe it's got nothing to do with what he just said. It's got to do with the fact that for a week, I've been growing more and more resentful that my needs aren't being taken care of, that I'm not feeling heard, that I'm feeling less and less important. So now he needs something from me. Well, you know, yeah. Well, let's see what it feels like to need something and not get it.

That's really productive. Yeah. That's very powerful. When you say it's not worth it, replace it with, I'm not worth it. You're not worth it. We're not worth it. Because that just, it just changes everything, doesn't it? And I guess that is the reality of what we're often saying. Within that relationship, we are effectively saying that. We're trying to give us some psychological distance by saying it. Exactly. But who's it? Who's it? It's us. Right. And David's point about the fact that there is always a risk, I don't want to just blow past that. It's risky. It's also risky to say nothing. It might come out in some other way. And I personally sometimes say, this feels risky. I want to say this to you, and I want you to know that it feels risky.

you to know that it feels risky. Okay. So another thought I had was, let's say your husband had had a really busy day at work and he didn't get a lunch break and his drive home was stuck in traffic and he's just, oh, he's in the house. He just wants to unwind a little bit and in whatever way he likes to do that. And let's say at that point, you said you stayed on your side of the net and you brought it up. So, you know, you didn't make judgments, but you said that. Now, one option might be he's just not in the headspace for that conversation at that point. So what options are there at that point? Because he may well have heard his wife say something really significant and meaningful that really does need attention. Is it a good practice at that point? And I guess, throughout this book, I think through learning

about relationships, we learn more about ourselves. Would it be a good practice for him to say, hey, look, I can understand that that is something that we really need to talk about. Can you give me 15 minutes just to sort of unwind from work? And then I'd love to sit down over a cup of tea and have that conversation. Or maybe give us some examples of, because I imagine that may happen from quite a lot. That's almost exactly what happened once I learned to stay on my side of the net. Which is, you know, honey, I just, I need some, I need some time to unwind. And, and let's talk, you know, and so then I was like, okay. And he had the good sense to say, I need some time to unwind.

Let's talk about this over dinner. Not, I need some time to unwind and then never come back to it. Or never talk about when we're going to talk about it. It's like right now, I'm sorry, I can't have this conversation right now. I hear how important this is to you. I can't have it. In fact, I don't want to have it because I want to give it its due. Can we have the conversation at dinner? And then we had the conversation about the negotiation at dinner. Yeah. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my

very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good?

All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. And I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits and improve our relationships. There are of course many different ways to journal and as with most things it's important that you

find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to

buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. I wanted to talk there about something I've been thinking about, probably for the past few weeks actually. I'm in the process of writing my next book at the moment, and one of the chapters is on conversations. Now you use the term armor. I use the term masks in this chapter that I'm writing. And there's this clash inside my head, which I thought it would be really awesome to actually discuss with you both and to hear your thoughts on it. So I feel that solitude...

Not a feeling. Ah, okay. Okay. This is great. Personal session. Uh, okay. It's okay to say you think, just don't call it a feeling. Okay. I love that. Okay, great. So let me try again. I think, man, my kids and wife are going to wonder what has happened to me when I walk into the kitchen after this, and I start suddenly not using the word I feel anymore. But I, okay, let's try. I think that solitude, that, you know, not loneliness, solitude, intentional solitude, being able to be alone with your thoughts is very important for physical health, mental health, emotional health. for physical health, mental health, emotional health. Now, I think that when we can't be with ourself, when we struggle with that and we distract with, and we all get

distracted most of the time, I guess, but when we can't be with ourselves to really understand ourselves, then we often have a delicate sense of who we are, a fragile sense of who we are. And then we bring that into our interactions with other people. So therefore, we're almost using other people to prop up our sense of who we are, our insecurities. And then I feel that I think that's a very vulnerable position to be in because as soon as those friends, as soon as that network is not supporting that fragile view of who you have of yourself, you start to get really emotional and upset and it can really cause friction.

So on one side, I think that solitude helps us get in touch with our emotions so we can better show up in our relationships. But on the flip side, I kind of feel, and this is something Esther Perel said to me when I spoke to her on the podcast, that, you know, she said that we are relational beings. We only exist in relation to other people. And so I think that also we start to learn who we are. We start to learn about ourselves through the interactions we have with other people. I don't think those things are mutually exclusive, but I wonder if you could help me unpack that a little bit. Yeah, you're getting at a crucial, crucial concept.

We talk about building an internal gyroscope, that in essence, if I can get a lot of feedback about how my behavior affects other people, it gets me to reflect about why I'm doing what I'm doing. Because particularly if I do something that's dysfunctional, I don't want to. So I'm going to reflect. But that feedback also allows me to know more about myself. I know that when I do X, it works with that person. I know when I do Y, it's less functional. We start to see how others see us. That builds an internal gyroscope so that when somebody says something, I'm not upended, that I have this solidity, I have this solidness within me. So other people have helped me build this solidness, which paradoxically allows me to be

open to more feedback, because we're often afraid of it, because one piece of feedback could be so upending if we don't have this central part of ourselves. So again, it's that paradox. We need other people to know the impact we have, which gets us to understand ourselves better. And we build a self-concept and we accept ourselves. The acceptance is really important. Because I'm also being accepted by you, I accept myself more. And therefore, and in that process, I have used solitude to reflect. Why am I acting as I'm doing? What is it I want? Why do I do that? But then I know I'm using other people's feedback to know myself, which builds a solidity about myself. Yeah. Carol, you want to add to that?

I was back on the fragility that you mentioned, Rangan, and the idea that the less I tell you about me, what's really going on for me, the less, the more opportunity I give you to make up stories about me. And when that happens, I'm actually more fragile because the stories you're going to make up about me are going to maybe be way worse than what I'm actually going to tell you about me. So I think there's a really interesting, but back to your solitude question. interesting. But back to your solitude question, there's the processing part that David was just talking about. There's the learning part that happens in my interactions with others. And then I have to do something. I have to process it. I have to internalize it. I have to think about

what does it mean? I have to think about how do I want that to inform my choices going forward? And some of that, as an extrovert, some of that I do in conversation with others. And some of that I actually have to do on my own. That's why, by the way, the students have to keep a journal, which they hate, and then thank us for forever. journal, which they hate and then thank us for forever. There is something about the process of integrating, learning, that journaling, I think, is especially useful for. Yeah. I mean, there's many greats throughout history who have waxed lyrical about the benefits of journaling every day. And I don't think everyone has to, but I'm sure people can find alternatives that suit them. But

I do feel some form of intentional solitude helps us know ourself and helps us show up for others. So yeah, I really just wanted to discuss that because it's just something I've been wrestling with in my head. So I really appreciate your insights on that. Exceptional relationships. Okay, you mentioned at the start of this conversation, the six criteria. And I'm wondering, you know, is there a limit to how many exceptional relationships one can have in one's life? Because it sounds as though they need time, they need commitment, they

need intention on both sides to deepen. And you know, we're sort of busier than ever before and people are struggling even to find five minutes a day to journal. So, you know, is it something that is harder now in this modern age? And actually how many is it realistic that someone might be able to have in their life? I think if you have four or five, you're ahead of the game. That would be what I would shoot for. But I want to come back to what Carol talked about before that all relationships are in a continuum. Because the four or five are going to take a lot of work.

It's going to take time. It's going to take risk taking. And it's not just that I have other distractions, but I have other things to do and four or five are a lot. But there's two points to make. One is that doesn't mean other relationships can't also be important, can't also be personal, can't also be more honest. And Carol made the point I really want to underline it. Can you look at all your relationships and ask yourself not, can I make this exceptional? You may want to do that for four or five, but can I move it along the continuum so it's a little higher than it was before? The other point I want to make when talking about time is I think that the issue is not do I have time, but it's how I use my time. And so much of our interactions are superficial when they don't have to be.

So I often have the thought, gee, I'm having conversations this level. Could I drop it one level? Could I make it a little more intimate? Not that I'm sharing everything. And I think that if we saw all of our ongoing interactions as an opportunity to be a little more honest, to be a little more self-revealing, to be a little more curious about the other person, to be a little more willing to raise a pinch, will make those other relationships also have meaning in our life. So we shouldn't get hooked on saying, I've got to have my four or five. Yes, I hope we do have exceptional, but to see all relationships as having the potential to be more personally gratified and in their own ways to be a source of learning. Yeah.

I'm also wondering about over a lifetime. I think four or five in a given moment in my life is a realistic, more than that feels overwhelming. But it doesn't mean that over my lifetime, I've only had four or five. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting that when you mentioned four or five, David, I was immediately struck by, I don't know if you've heard of it, this Okinawan concept of moai mates or Moai friends. Have you heard of the Blue Zones? These five areas around the world, these little pockets where they have very high rates of longevity and very good health even into their hundreds.

And I've sort of researched quite a lot about them and they have this concept. In one of the blues zones, Okinawa in Japan, they talk about these Moai mates that they have five friends for life from, I think, childhood all the way until they die. These five friends who support them emotionally, physically, financially. You know, I thought, what a lovely concept. Now, of course, that was in a different time, in a different era. But it was striking that you also said four or five, David, which was the number they talk about. But then, Carol, I think what you said was, it really brought up something in me, which is this idea of moving on from relationships and relationships serving us at various times. And that sometimes we have to move on and not cling to relationships

that no longer fit. And I think this is something that many people really, really struggle with. I know I have struggled with this in the past, really struggled with it. Where in your 20s, let's say you're, you know, after work, you go out to bars, you're drinking and you have friends that kind of fit that, but then sort of got married, had kids, sort of moved on and like, it's kind of not my scene anymore. I don't really enjoy it, I don't want to do it. But some of those relationships, not all of them, some of them just no longer seem to work anymore. And I wonder if you have any helpful advice to people on how to navigate that. It might have been an exceptional

relationship. It may not. It may have been just a very deep relationship. But I think this is something people really struggle with. Yeah. I think what's important there is that we not blame the other person if the relationship starts to lose some of its intimacy, some of its closeness. And we tend to say, well, you're not this or you're not that. And again, it's back to self-awareness. Can I say this, and I think you said this, that this no longer fits me. I'm owning what's going on. And can we honor it? Can we use the parallel of what is the UK? You now recently had a funeral. The king is dead. Long live the king. That we honor that it was important in the past.

And now we need to move on. But I need to move on. It's not because you are lucky. Okay. And in fact, you know, there is a chapter in the book about, you know, some, it's more about relationships that don't ever really quite reach that level. And the acceptance in that doesn't mean you don't have a good relationship, just means it's not exceptional. Yeah. But I, and I'll add that I don't want to understate how hard that is when one person has a different set of needs than they had before that now shifts the nature of the relationship that they've had up until now. And I mean, we're all works in progress all the time,

and relationships are dynamic. So to expect anything to be a certain way forever, I think is unrealistic. Yeah, I think this is something we should really talk about, that relationships change. I've heard you in another interview, Carol, I heard you involved with when I was researching for today's show, that you was talking about your own marriage and saying that the relationship you have now with your husband is not the same relationship you had when you met. In fact, you are different people, both of you, from when you met. And I think that's something we really need to recognize that actually is something I've been very aware of in my own marriage. And, you know, I really feel that when you put in the work... Wait, wait, wait. What do you really feel?

when you put in the work, what do you really feel? Ah, this is great. So, okay. Okay. This is going to be very hard for me because my, that is the way this way so far I communicate a lot. So this is going to take a lot of intentional work for me. But the reason I stopped you is that right now you actually were feeling something. Yeah, you're right. I was. I was feeling, well, I was talking about my wife and I was going to say that I feel we've got a truly exceptional relationship. Okay. That's not a feeling. Okay. I think closer you think you have and what's the feeling attached to that the feeling is a I feel a bit emotional saying that I feel um I feel like proud I feel satisfied I feel grateful I feel happy I I feel fortunate. See what's happening here. We're learning so much more about you in this moment. I almost said, go pull out your book and pull

open the appendix and find the feelings, just like the students, right? And we're having a fabulous conversation. I'm really enjoying it. I find it intellectually really interesting and stimulating. And right now I feel even more drawn toward you. I think what I was trying to get at, and I'm going to be, I'm going to really think about these feelings because I think it's awesome to have this reflected back it really is um i think i have mentioned this a couple of times on the show before but we have a completely different relationship now than when we got married yes and when we got married there was know, it was a whirlwind romance and it was, you know, desire and it was like, you know, passion. And I had the reality hit of actually, oh, kind of this day to day life.

And then there's all kinds of dynamics that maybe we weren't aware of when we got married. And this is just, you know, as you said, Caroline, that interview, you're still discovering things about your husband, right? New things after however many years of marriage. And I feel, not I feel, let me catch myself again. I know that we have a much better and more effective way of communicating. There's still, you know, a lot of, as I read your book, I see, oh, I could improve this, actually. I could change the way I interact here. I could learn from that chapter and that case study. And this is why I think I'm so delighted with that book, which is why I think everyone should get a copy, because it helps us understand ourselves. It helps give us practical tools that we can use in everyday life. And that's one thing I would challenge everyone who's listening

to do is go, just take one thing from this conversation and go, you know what, I'm going to try that. I'm going to try that in one of my work relationships or with my partner or with my parent, you know, whatever it is. So, but it's not the same relationship now as it was at the start. And that's a good thing. And I see a lot of problems. And I've got friends who, I've got a friend called me recently said, hey man, I'm really struggling in my marriage. You know, she's just not the same person that I married." And it's like, well, you know what? After 15, 20 years, yeah, she's not going to be the same person. Do you know what I mean? Did these things come up in your course as well? Do people talk to you about their partners, their marriages? Yes, they do. And what I would also say is you can't go back. It's not just that

we can't go back, but can we also appreciate the present and the future? So I'm in my 80s. So not only is Carol saying, am I discovering new things about myself and about Eva, but we're facing new issues. So we've been having conversations around end of life. What is that going to be? What sort of care do we want to give each other? So that wasn't a discussion that we had when we first got married or we had different conversations then. We had different conversations with kids. We had different conversations when we made choices about work and the centrality. So I think where I would want to go is to say, what are the issues that are of central importance to me and my spouse at this point in our life?

And can we be more honest and direct and self-revealing about those issues and not try to go back to where we were 30 years ago? Yeah. I'm thinking about that phrase, David, you use, you can't go back. And I think that's actually really, really powerful. you really, really powerful. And I think about in my own life, I'm very, very lucky to have a group of really close friends. With one of those friends who I'm super close with, things have evolved recently because we now do a bit of work together. we now do a bit of work together. And it's really interesting this because there have been pinch points on my side for sure that as of yet I have not brought up. And I've been close to bringing them up at various times. And I started reading your book about, hey, you know what? Let me just absorb this material first and really try and think about the most productive way of doing this. And one of the reasons I haven't yet,

we want to put a bit of time in the diary remotely, which is obviously the way things are. Certainly in the UK, we're only just coming out of our third lockdown as we record this conversation. We'd be super busy. And I've really felt, you know, I need time, I need space, because this relationship matters to me. It really matters to me. And I don't think it's possible to go back because things have changed. New things have come up because of us now interacting in a new environment. But I'm just thinking, have I not had this conversation yet because I haven't had time, because I feel we need proper time and energy, because we've not managed to get face-to-face, or is it that I'm actually scared? And because I'm scared, I'm not curating the time. And of course, it's hard. I mean, you can't possibly know. If we

use the over-the-net analogy, I guess it would be impossible to know exactly what's going on. But I imagine you might have some theories based upon your many years of experience. Yeah, I think that you put your finger on it. I think we use time as an excuse. We say, oh, we don't have time. Or I'm not ready. Or I'm not ready. I think when you were starting to say, maybe I'm scared, I think that that's a good chance for introspection. I think there's also a mental model, Carol talked about that, that may be getting in the way. And that is, if we have a pinch or annoyance, it's so easy to say something is wrong with the other person or something is

wrong with the relationship. And I'd want to reframe that and say hmm this is an opportunity for learning so I'm going to use an analogy you're driving your car to work and it starts to sputter a little bit you don't say bad car bad car you say hey there's something I need to work on so is this pinch an opportunity for you to discover what is not there in the relationship that you want or an opportunity for you to learn more about yourself or to learn more about the other person? And I think that if you go in with the attitude that pinches, even crunches, even conflict is an opportunity to learn, we're more willing to find the time to be able to do it. Because it is a sign that something important is going on. And ignoring it is ignoring something that might be a crucial source of learning for you, the other, and the relationship. Yeah. Just to respond, I feel that I... Back up.

I have learnt a lot about myself as I have reflected on this particular situation. I've journaled it. I've meditated on it. I've been for walks thinking about it. I guess... Excuse me, let me break in. That's wonderful. And you only have two thirds of the reality.

You don't know where the other person is, what's going on there. So I'm in favor of all you're talking about, about reflection, solitude and journaling. But I also want to talk about the richness of the interpersonal function of knowing their reality and the two of you joining together to figure this out and that's a form of connection yeah i really appreciate you saying that and if as i sort of articulate this with you both i think oh I think I said I think I didn't say maybe something's happening um my fear I think is coming from in some ways actually reading the book has made me realize that I could start tweaking my language. And if I can expand my

vocabulary on this, I can have a much more productive conversation around this rather than, yes, prioritizing it, make the time, but go in. And again, maybe that's fear maybe you're never ready you learn and this is something you do say in the book it's an experiential process you can't just read and rationalize it and go oh i know how to do it now you you only learn by doing it and and being in there um yeah so i'm just sharing that there's been this going on in my head a little bit for for a few months now actually for a few months so i so while we're on it rongan i want to go back to a couple things that david said one is curiosity and the the importance of you remaining curious it as you go into it uh and whether or not what

what is your relationship with curiosity how do you feel about being curious? And the other thing I want to say is that when you journal and you think about it, you're also you journal or walk or think about. Because my hunch is that when you have this conversation with your dear friend, the more you can also name your feelings about this, the stronger the likelihood is that you're going to have a really productive exchange. And that's really terribly important, what Carol just said. And to build on that, I'm a little worried about your emphasis on language. So I'm both going to agree and I'm going to disagree. Language is important. But I think what is most important is that you have the theory right. And if you have the theory right, the words will follow. And I really worry when our students say, well, how do I get just the right words? And if you, in a sense, say what Carol just said,

how am I feeling? What's my intention? I wonder what's going on for the other person. And you could also, when you said, I'm afraid of raising this, I would urge you to say that as well, because that's an important feeling. And you don't have to get it perfectly. In fact, not infrequently, Eva says to me with some exasperation, you teach this stuff. Why don't you do it right? And I'm over the net. I forget a feeling. I make an attribution.

But I can recover. And so, again, it's the theory behind all of this. it's the theory behind all of this. That if you have that and you're getting it in an impressive way of the role of feelings and catching yourself, I want you to honor what you're doing. And you didn't get the words exactly right at the beginning, but you caught yourself. That's what's important. Yeah. It's such wonderful advice. And I really appreciate hearing that. It's like getting a masterclass. And it's really striking to me that even that example you gave just then with your own wife, that we can often see things beautifully in other people. We're brilliant at seeing it, but often it's it's so hard to see it in ourselves

you know we're sort of within ourselves it's very hard to step outside us and go this is what's going on here and as you you're explaining that example David there's this very powerful example at the end of the book between you both, which you very courageously, I feel, shared in the book. But I think it's one of the most powerful sections because, as you just said, it shows that even the experts in this field who have been teaching it to thousands of students can also sometimes slip up. I wonder if you might feel like you can share some of that story and what some of the learnings are for us. So, you know, the bottom line of the story is that we had an incident that occurred that

resulted in my saying I would never talk to David again. And we were already very close. We already had what we would probably say was an exceptional relationship. David had been my mentor, and then eventually we had grown closer and closer. We'd done a lot of work together. We developed a lot of programs together. And the details of what happened are not particularly important. But essentially, David did not support me in a way that I wanted to be supported.

And in a way I believed was what, and certainly not what I expected in terms of support. Can I pause you there for a second, Carol? I just want to get this close. So you just said, David did not support me in a way that I wanted to be supported. So if I'm, if I got this right, you are still on your side of the net there, aren't you? Because that is factually correct. That's correct. Okay. Correct. Please continue. And I felt betrayed. I felt abandoned. I felt resentful.

And I was furious. And I said I'd never talk to him again. And the chapter, of course, is about how we came back from that. So we could talk about that a little bit more. And I want David to say a little bit about what it felt, what his feelings were on the receiving end of this. Yes, I felt helpless. Yes, I felt helpless. I think what is interesting about this is both each of us thought we were correct. And where we trapped ourselves was starting to argue about who was more correct. And that made it worse. So I felt helpless. I felt that part of the helplessness was a loss at what to do. I was pained. I missed Carol's presence and closeness very much.

and closeness very much. And I felt it was a sense of inadequacy of I didn't know what to do. And in fact, what turned out was that we needed other people to help us to start to unfreeze this log jam that we were in. And I think what is important is that even though Carol was furious, we had to work together. We worked together as professionals. We didn't demonize each other. We didn't say that the other person was an evil person. We didn't say that the other person was an evil person. We assumed the other person had the best of intentions, but I, quote, knew she was wrong, and she, quote, knew I was wrong. And that's where our impasse was.

Did you both cross the net in that interaction? No, I don't think we did. I think't, I think what happened in that, in that, what finally broke the logjam was, well, as David said, first of all, you know, I especially had a couple of people in my life who kept saying, really, Carol, you're never going to talk to David again? What's wrong with you? He's only like one of the most important people in your life. Like you didn't, you know, he didn't kill anybody. He didn't damage anything terribly. So, you know, what happened activated a lot of stuff for me that had nothing to do with David, as things like that tend to be. And it wasn't until I actually, until enough people were at me to say, at least have a conversation with them. We had tried, and the chapter talks about, you know, a conversation that didn't go so well.

But I think what, while we did not go over the net, one of the things that we both had to learn to do better was meet each other emotionally, which is another part of what we talk about in the book. I didn't realize David was in any pain. I just knew that I was in pain. And David recognized my pain, but it was a while before he found a way to express it in a way that I believed him or that I felt meant, for lack of a better way of describing it. And so in a sense, it was only when I said, I can really hear how upset you are, how painful, and I can really hear why this is so important to you. Now, what was interesting is we never agreed about what the right answer was. To this day, I believe he was wrong and he believes I was wrong.

And it doesn't matter. It was irrelevant because I, in a sense, tried to, and it took some effort on my part, to really try to understand. And there's a difference between understanding somebody and understanding somebody emotionally and agreeing with them. And so I could say that I could really understand why you're so upset. And I'm sorry. And I'm sorry that what I did say that I could really understand why you're so upset. And I'm sorry. And I'm sorry that what I did did that. I probably wouldn't have changed my decision. But that was irrelevant, as Carol was saying. How important in relationships is the word sorry? Is this something that comes up in your course? Because many people struggle. That word just can't come out of their

mouth and they will even acknowledge, I just can't say it. How do you help people with that? It depends on what the sorry is and how often we say, well, I'm sorry. Well, I'm sorry. As a dismissive comment, which is really very different than saying, I'm really sorry. And I think that part of what is hard about that is that we think that if I say, I'm sorry, that we have to agree with the other person when we really don't. Or we think that we're totally at, quote, at fault when we think the other person has some responsibility. And so I would want to go back to the notion that I am sorry that you're upset. Because I am pained that you are pained because I care about you. So that's the emotional connection. It's not that I necessarily did something wrong, or that I'm 100% responsible, but I am sorry that we're in this state. I'm sorry that you're hurting. I'm sorry that I inadvertently did something that may have caused that. That's a sorry that is a connecting sorry.

cause that. That's a sorry that is a connecting sorry. Yeah. It's interesting for me that number five in these six hallmarks of exceptional relationships that you put right at the start of the book is that you deal with conflict productively. And I think it's a really beautiful thing for us to sit with this idea that having an exceptional relationship does not mean you're not going to have conflicts because many of us think when we've got it right we've got to sort this not give me any conflicts yeah but but that's not true is it no it's not true in my marriage it's I don't think it's true in any really really robust relationship much less an exceptional one because Because if we look at the, I mean, these hallmarks are interdependent. And if one of the hallmarks is that we are both committed to our own and each other's growth, there's, you know, most conflict results in some growth for probably both of us.

probably both of us. And the other thing is, so we're back to, I think people avoid conflict because of fear, and because it feels risky to lean into it. And because they don't, they're not equipped with, you know, as many tools as are helpful to have. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm struck by a thought there. Could you even make a case that it's very hard to have an exceptional relationship without conflict? Because... Yes, it's impossible.

Yes. It's impossible. That's what I'm starting to come around to, that it's actually a necessary part. Like people say, oh, we never argue. It's like, well, maybe that's because no one's risking,

no one's going deep, no one's opening up. Exactly. So therefore, you've both got this kind of fictional impression of who you are and how you interact. And one thing I've seen recently, and I know you will have seen this or been fed this back by your students, some friends of mine who have been very good friends for years. who have been very good friends for years. One of them has been on a self-development journey in many ways. And really, since the breakup of a relationship,

really getting to know themselves better and realizing that a dynamic in a previous relationship was actually very flawed, but served at a time and has gone through the very difficult process of actually making that be known. I don't know how it was made known, but really quite traumatic, certainly on one side, because that dynamic has changed. But as you've already said, David, as you said, Carol, you can't go back. Once you are aware, things kind of, they just change, don't they? And you either evolve with it and change with it, or you end up very disappointed. And I think back to Carol's point about these six hallmarks being interdependent, if I am going to be more myself and show more of myself and be more of myself. Some of that is going to work well with Carol and some of it's not going to work well. And likewise, when Carol is more herself.

So this process of being known and we think that we need to find a mate where it's perfect, that everything fits. And the consequence of that is, is that we shut out those parts of ourselves, which may be different, and we're less of ourselves. So instead, can we say, gee, this conflict is raising a possibility of how can I still be more of myself and you be more of yourself in a way that's functional? Can we work this out rather than one of us is wrong or the relationship is bad. I know that my relationship with my wife is all the better for the conflict that we have successfully navigated and got through.

Without that, it would have been a fraction of what it is now. It was a necessary part. So my sort of thought there is, do you think that many people end relationships, and I guess I'm talking, well, any relationship really, not just love relationships, but end them prematurely because they don't have the skills. They don't have the toolkit to actually manage that conflict. So the easy thing to do is to go, actually, you know what? I'm out. This relationship doesn't work. And of course, many people, and I've seen this with some patients, they jump from relationship to relationship. It's like, well, what's the common factor here what what's

what's with you everywhere you go but it's very do you know what i mean i say that with love and compassion i really do not not not sneering at anyone i really am not but but you know and that's why i think it's so powerful they either end the relationship or they stall they stay in the relationship in a stalled way, which is almost a different kind of dying, right? Where nobody, you know, this becomes the unspoken and then the unspeakable. And then, you know, I don't know about you, but I know a few marriages like that. And if we come back to relationships get stronger, we say in the last chapter, relationships get stronger. We say in the last chapter, I would never have written this book with David had we not gone through what we went through. Because it took our relationship to a

whole different level when I was so mad at him that I, well, I mean, part of what happened was the process through which we went through also had me see David as, you know, another human being, not a God. Until then, I'd seen him as a God. He was my mentor. And I don't know that I would have agreed to write a book with him. If, if I don't think we would have been well served by that. I think we were able to argue a whole lot more and a whole lot more easily as we wrote the book and disagree with each other, even have a few pinches. And even afterward, you know, I'm like Ms. Control Freak. And, you know, that becomes an interesting issue for David. issue for David. And the fact that we have the relationship we have now is that both allowed us to write a book and get even closer in the process would not have happened had we not had this conflict originally. Yeah, I can really see that, that writing a book together is putting you guys or was putting you guys in a very different environment from what you were used to. So

you'd built up this relationship based upon other environments, other experiences. And now suddenly, a bit like, I'm going to say, this own personal relationship I have with one of my friends where actually things are working great, but we've added in a new environment now in which we're not used to playing in this environment. So now we need to learn a new skill. None of this invalidates the many years of all the other stuff. And that's the maturity that we need to build up, isn't it? That's all great. That's still there. But actually, we've now got this opportunity to see there's this new opportunity for growth. The other thing, Carol,

I wanted to just touch on that. I don't think we'll have time to go deep into this one on this call. And maybe next time I'm in the US or next time you're in the UK, maybe we'll do a follow up face to face, which would be wonderful. But you said you had David on a pedestal. He was like your hero. And another type of relationship that has come up in the book and something I think about a lot is that between a child and a parent. And that many times we, and we have to as kids, put our parents on pedestals and then we become adults and we have our own family and that dynamic starts to change and I really feel and I've seen it with so many patients and friends that actually and I've experienced

with myself that learning how to change that relationship how to evolve it when you're no longer the child to now being an equal in many ways can be fraught with problems and challenges. I know with my own mother, I, you know, I'd have some very difficult conversations with her over the last few years. But on the other side of that, it's much better. I feel, I think it was always good, but actually. It's even better. Yeah. But actually, it's even better.

Yeah. So putting people on pedestals and having to reframe that, I think people get a lot of wisdom in the book about that, for sure. Yeah, thanks. And I think what's important also is, am I willing to get off the pedestal? And I think that's very much true with parents and children. I think that's very much true with parents and children. Are parents willing to let themselves be known? Or is there a fear that the child will no longer respect them as much, think as much of them?

And so, again, that's a risk. You know, and the kids do the same thing. Kids withhold information for one approval. So we're back to the risk. But we're also back to, can we have a deeper connection? Yeah. We've just got under 10 minutes left. And one thing I think I thought we really should cover is given the times in which we have been living, a lot of interaction has gone digital. Yes. action has gone digital. And so I'm just wondering, how do these principles apply when you can't be face-to-face with someone, where you get all that non-verbal communication?

Has it changed things? I guess the underlying principle is still the same, but are you seeing that it's more challenging with digital communication to actually build these exceptional relationships than when we're actually face to face in real life. Well, I'd say at one end email, asynchronous, non, you know, asynchronous written communication is fraught with problems. It was never intended to be a medium for connecting with people. It was always intended to be a way to get information efficiently back and forth. So when people say, you know, can I give feedback on email? I'm like, oh my God, that is a, that, that's a bad idea in general. And sometimes you have no choice and then you have to like, not just double down, triple down on everything we talk about in the book, because now the words really are the only thing that matters yeah uh now at

the other end of course the very best thing is to be in person where you do pick up not just the the the the words and the tone and the new but the non-verbal the non-verbal nuance verbal nuance. Somewhere in the middle is Zoom, better than email, certainly not as good as in person. I think part of what's happened, and we talk about this a lot in some of our other podcasts, is that in this last year, especially, now I'm not talking about technology taking over our lives, but especially since the pandemic, we've, and when we spend so much of our time this way on Zoom, then we become, and it's so exhausting, that we've foregrounded task more and more and backgrounded relationship as a result.

And so now you have to double down on what we talk about in terms of what you talk about and how you talk about it. I don't know, David, if you have something you want to add to that, but those are my initial thoughts. I think that's very, very true. And again, we, to, in a sense, force ourselves to both share feelings when we Zoom and to share personal things that go on. But there's also an advantage, which we've discovered, because my kids are up in the state of Washington, 1,500 miles away. We used to talk on the phone. Now we Zoom,

We used to talk on the phone. Now we Zoom, and it's actually better. So what is really better is when I'm able to travel up there and we can see them face to face. But the Zooming has allowed a more personal connection with my family than we had before. But again, what we have to work at is to use that as an opportunity, not just to pass on news, but to pass on what's going on. So, for example, my grandson is in college and was in a condition where he might have been contaminated with the virus, so is in isolation. That's terribly upsetting. He's tested negative, so he seems to be okay. But not only just sharing the fact that this went on when I talked to my daughter, but sharing our concern and our fear and our gratefulness for how well the university is doing in dealing with it was the important part about it. So again, it's what Carol's saying of doubling down

on those parts that make for connection. Let me tell you what's important to me, what's going on for me. Let me tell you how I'm feeling. Let me tell you how I'm missing you. I think rather than, well, gee, we did this and we did that and so on. It's telling you about me personally and wanting to know about you personally. Yeah. And people think that takes a lot of time, you know, especially because, you know, we've fallen into this. Oh, we got to be really efficient. But actually, if I spend 30 seconds and, you know, when we started the call, you said, how are you? And I said, that's a complicated question. So if I spend 30 seconds and tell you that I'm overwhelmed because I'm moving to San Francisco and I am incredibly grateful that I have a brand new grandson who's three months old because it means I get to distribute my obsessive compulsive neuroses between trying to get this book known in the world and something else that I

really, really care about. That took less than 30 seconds, but you learned more about me. It was more connecting perhaps. Yeah. And I heard Brené Brown recently say that on her Zoom calls with her team, I think if I remember right, they all start off by saying two feelings. Yes. They just say two words, they go rounds, which I thought was great. And I think I've heard, Carol, you say one of the CEOs you trained, could you just tell, because I think it's so helpful and people of that level are still finding time at the start of their call to focus on feelings before action. I think it's really powerful. Right. I mean, they start their every other week executive meetings with each person taking 90

seconds and they time it, going around saying, if you really knew me. And so if you really knew me, you'd know that I'm moving. But they have to include at least three feeling words. And as a result, I'm feeling overwhelmed and wondering how the heck I ever agreed to do this. If you really knew me, you would know that I'm spinning so many plates that I lost all the notes for a talk I was supposed to give this afternoon. And now I'm having to figure out how to, I'm still giving the talk this afternoon so i'm a little crazed so you know and if we were if this was our routine then every two weeks they go around and they know what's happening for each other yeah and they have and they have to have three feeling words i love that

and uh i i think when when i have a team meeting with my own team around the podcast, I think we're going to try that, actually. Well, I'm going to suggest that. I don't want to enforce it on anyone, but I'm going to suggest it and see if people are open to that. I do have someone in the team, in the room at the moment, looking at me. I'm not going to look at what expression he's got on his... Sorry, David, far away. And when you suggest that, I hope you will share why it's important to you. I will. I absolutely will. This is fantastic. Look, guys, I just want to say, I think, Carol, David, you've clearly already helped thousands of people

transform the quality of their lives through what you've done in your professional work, the courses, the in-person courses that you have run. And I know you continue to run in various forms. I honestly feel that this book is a masterpiece that's going to help so many people all around the world transform their relationships, their health, their happiness. I want to acknowledge you for that and say thank you. This podcast, no, it's been a pleasure to read it. It's been an absolute pleasure. I wish we had another two hours. There's so much more, but maybe we'll do that in person in California later in the year if we can make that happen. But to finish off, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. And clearly, relationships are a critical, if not the most crucial part of that. I always love to leave the

listeners, the YouTube viewers, with some practical things. We may have already covered them, but just as a summary at the end, that they can think about applying into their lives immediately. Of course, I'd recommend that everyone buys the book, but can you each maybe leave some of your favorite tips that people can think about applying immediately? Carol, would you like to start? Well, I think if there's one thing that I hope people really remember is the concept of choice, which is you have a choice to take a risk and become better known. You have a choice to get more curious. You have a choice to give somebody feedback because you care about them enough that you want to tell them they're doing something that is not in their best interest. You have a choice about receiving a piece of feedback

as a gift and a data with which you can make more choices. You have a choice about whether or not you want to keep learning and growing. And the more you equip, you have a choice about how much you equip yourself with tools and competencies like these in order to make better and better choices. Yeah, brilliant. David, any closing thoughts? Yes. Lean into it. Whatever it is, lean into it. And lean into it with excitement and the possibility of growth. And I think what I would add to that is see the value in the small steps. It's not just the big steps. You were talking about a friend of yours that you may want to have an important conversation with. But I'm struck with the fact that in my normal interactions, I can do a small thing that is a little more self-revealing, a little more personal,

a little more caring, a little more emotional-based. It doesn't have to be this massive self-revealing. And I think that if we do that on an ongoing basis, we'll find, at least I find myself when I do it, I feel fuller. The connection makes me more alive and I feel more connected. So that's what I would hope people would do. Yeah. The quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives

and the tools that you teach are really, really going to help people do that. David Carroll, I've really enjoyed speaking to you both. I cannot wait till we get to meet each other face to face and do it again. But stay well and thanks for coming on the show. I really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, please do have a think about one thing that you can take away from this episode and apply into your own life. Inspiration and information is not enough on its own. You simply have to take action if you want something to change. And before we finish, I really want to let you know about Friday Five. It's my weekly newsletter that contains five

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