Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #179 Why Emotions Matter More Than You Think with Professor Marc Brackett

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

CAUTION ADVISED: this podcast contains mild swearing and themes of an adult nature. Today's conversation is all about our emotions and my guest is Professor Marc Brackett, the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. He's published over 100 research articles over the course of his career, and has dedicated his life to studying and teaching emotional literacy. But why are our emotions so important? Marc explains the profound benefits of being better able to express and regulate our emotions on multiple aspects of our lives. Our emotions affect our creativity, learning and problem solving, but also our physical health and our mental health. Yet so many of us struggle to express and regulate our emotions. It's not something that is taught in schools or even modelled by much of society. Marc aims to help change this through his work and research. He has developed something called the ‘RULER’ approach to social and emotional learning, which is used in over 2000 schools across the world and is detailed in his brilliant book, Permission to Feel: Unlock the power of emotions to help yourself and your children. The ‘RULER’ approach sets out the five underlying skills of emotional intelligence and stands for Recognising, Understanding, Labelling, Expressing and Regulating emotions. The RUL, says Marc, is about our experience – whether of our own emotions or someone else’s. The ER is about what we do with the feelings. And I think it’s an invaluable tool for children and adults alike. Marc explains why he wants us all to become what he calls ‘emotion scientists’, rather than being ‘emotion judges’, and he wants us all to be able to better understand our own and each other's feelings. This episode is packed with personal insights, practical examples and brilliant tips to put his advice into practice in your life and perhaps that of your children. I hope you find it as useful and meaningful as I did. Thanks to our sponsors: http://www.calm.com/livemore http://www.vivobarefoot.com/uk/livemore http://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/179 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

So much of our emotion regulation ability stems from the way the adults in our lives spoke to us when we were kids. Did you have someone in your life give you the permission to feel? Literally. Who just provided the space for you to be your true, full, feeling self. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better Live More. Today's conversation is all about our emotions and my guest is Professor Mark Brackett, the founding director of the Yale Center of Emotional Intelligence. Now,

Mark is a very esteemed guest. Not only is he a professor at Yale, he's published over 100 research articles over the course of his career and has dedicated his life to studying and teaching emotional literacy. But why is that so important? Well, in our conversation, all will be revealed. Mark explains the profound benefits of being better able to express and regulate your emotions on multiple aspects of our lives. Creativity, learning, problem solving but also our physical health and our mental health. The thing is though many of us find this really hard. It's not something that is taught in schools or even modelled by much of society and Mark's aim is to help change that through his work and research. Now Mark has developed something called the RULER approach to social and emotional learning. It's used in over 2,000 schools across the world, which is really, really inspiring

because I think it is so, so important. And that RULER approach sets out the five underlying skills of emotional intelligence and stands for recognizing, understanding, labeling, expressing, and regulating our emotions. Now the first three, R-U-L, for recognizing, understanding, and labeling, is about our experience, whether of our own emotions or someone else's. And the last two, expressing and regulating emotions, is actually about what we do with those feelings. I think it is such an invaluable tool for children and adults alike. In our conversation, Mark explains why he wants us all to become what he calls emotion scientists rather than being emotion judges. And he wants us all

to be able to better understand our own and each other's feelings. This episode is packed with personal insights, practical examples, and brilliant tips that you are going to be able to implement into your own life and potentially the lives of your children as well. I genuinely think you are going to find this as useful and as meaningful as I did. Now, my conversation with Professor Mark Brackett. Mark Brackett. So emotions matter for five key reasons. The first, attention, memory, and learning. So, you know, if you're feeling anxious or overwhelmed or fearful about something, your brain is in fight, flight, freeze mode, not learning, paying attention mode.

That's why I was a terrible student in school. I hated school. It wasn't because of my cognitive ability. I'm a smart guy. It was because I was overwhelmed and scared for my safety. Because I had some serious trouble troubles as a kid and I was horrifically bullied. And so if I'm worrying about like, getting beaten up, how can I be caring about the Roman oligarchy or English history? The second is judgment and decision-making. We like to think of ourselves as being rational creatures, like I chose this because my intellect

said it so. And what we know from research is that our emotions are a big part of our everyday decision-making. So in my work in education, I've done studies where I've randomly assigned teachers to be in different mood states, good mood, bad mood. Very simple, think about a great day at work, think about a crappy day at work

and write about it for a few minutes. And then I had them evaluate the same student essay, one to two full grades difference in the evaluation. When I asked the educators, do you believe that how you felt had any influence over that grade? What are you talking about? I do grading all the time. Of course not. It's ridiculous. So that tells us that how we feel influences our judgments. And that happens mostly outside of conscious awareness. The third is relationship quality. Our facial expressions, our body language, our vocal tone, how we feel on the inside drives whether or not we want to approach or avoid people

i ever work with someone who is like really disgruntled yeah have you yeah for sure they're just like difficult to be around for a variety of reasons like they roll their eyes or they talk over you or they just look angry. And when you think about those people, do you say to yourself, gosh, I'd like to work with that person for the rest of my life? No, you say, I'd do anything to get away from them. So think about that, how we feel when we wake up in the morning, our anxiety, our sense of joy drives us to want to approach the day or avoid the day. Avoid the people we, you know, if you're in a relationship, you look over your significant other and you're like, you know, you anticipate how they're going to make you feel. And then you think to yourself, like, I want in, I want out.

The fourth, we'll call it physical and mental health. Emotions are the drivers of our health. We know that how we feel influences the chemicals in our body, which in turn affects our immune system, affects our heart, our just general physical health. And then finally, for people in the workforce, emotions are the drivers of our creativity and our performance. Having worked at a university where everyone has high general intelligence, you know, my assumption early on was that everyone would be successful.

But the truth is they're not. And many of our students have mental health problems. And so why is that? Well, it's because as you get older and are trying to achieve your dreams in life, right, you get disappointed, you get frustrated, you get harsh feedback. And what happens? You either deal with it well or you don't deal with it well. How many really creative people have you met who just couldn't reach their dreams? It's not because of their creativity. It's because they can't deal with the feelings associated with the creative process. Not only their feelings, other people's feelings around them they can't deal with.

Correct. their feelings, other people's feelings around them, they can't deal with. So basically you're saying that getting better at recognizing, understanding, dealing with, processing our emotions is going to help us be more creative, more mindful, have better relationships, improve our physical health, our mental health, our emotional health. That's a pretty good sell, right? That is a huge deal. And emotions, of course, is the topic of your book, of I think your life's work from what I can tell. And a bit of background on me, Mark, I've been a practicing medical doctor now for around 20 years. But over the past few years, Mark, I think my understanding has evolved to think actually a lot of lifestyle issues, in inverted commas, are a downstream consequence of a lack of emotional intelligence. So I'm thinking more and more with

my patients that actually improving their emotional intelligence, their ability to feel, express these emotions, actually would solve a lot of, or certainly help a lot of their symptoms and the problems that I see. So I wonder if we might start by unpicking that a little bit. What is emotional intelligence? And do you think there is a role for that with me trying to help my patients? It's so funny, you know, that you're asking this right now, because at noon, I'm doing the first of a series of five webinars on emotional intelligence for the cancer hospital at Yale. And so one of the leaders, his name is Roy Herbst at Smilo, a lung cancer specialist, has asked me and a colleague to come in and work with, you know, well over a hundred physicians

and nurses and others on this exact topic. So the answer is, you know, I have so many stories I could share with you about the lack of emotional intelligence in medicine. You know, from just plain old arrogance that I've seen, you know, to just this thing that you're talking about, which is, you know, that you have to control, constrain, mask your feelings because you have to be seen as this authority figure slash person, you know, who can't be, you know, befuddled or be, you know, feel because that will influence your patients. You know, there's so many, I think, wrong mindsets. I hate to be so strong about that, but around emotion and its intersection with clinical practice.

This mindset that emotions are emotional intelligence is a soft skill, you know, kind of is mind blowing to me. you know, kind of is mind blowing to me. You know, that it is something to be suppressed, denied, or controlled, as opposed to the way we think about emotional intelligence is learning how to use our emotions wisely to achieve well-being, to achieve good relationships, to achieve our goals, to be creative. And so for me, it's never about repressing, denying. It's always about just capitalizing on them and using them wisely. And so that brings up the question of like, what is this thing that we call emotional intelligence, right? Because it's not emotion, because emotions are the things that we experience. It's not just cognition or intelligence, because that's the way we process cold cognitive material. So it's this intersection of the two.

And my mentors, who are Peter Sullivan and Jack May Mayer were the originators of the theory of emotional intelligence and I've worked now for the last 25 years helping to refine the concept and measure it and teach it and so as you know from my book I use the acronym RULER to describe the five skills so the question is Dr. Chatterjee are you ready to dive into these five skills. So the question is, Dr. Chatterjee, are you ready to dive into these five skills? I can't wait. Let's go. All right. First one, recognizing emotions. So for example, I'm watching your facial expression during our webinar. And I'm going to be honest with you, my automatic attribution is like, he's like, either confused, or he's processing. But like, you know, like, is that just what I'm noticing? And the question is,

who's right? Do I know actually how you're feeling? Or am I, you know, attributing my anxiety and overwhelm about today onto you? And so there's so many layers to reading emotion, right? Because I project my feelings onto your feelings. I don't know you that well. So maybe that's your natural baseline look. Maybe you are. Like you're trying to like concentrate on what I'm saying and you're trying to process it.

And so like I'm misreading that as like someone who's thinking for someone who's confused. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Yeah. This goes on every day of our lives, every single day. And with our partners, with our children and our work. And so when we're trying to do the recognition of emotion or that first R, we're trying to make meaning out of people's facial expressions, body language, vocal tone, and behavior for what we call the interpersonal component of the skill. And then there's the self-focus, which is like my own awareness, like what's going on in my body? What's going on in my

brain? Like how am I feeling? And so throughout the day it's this dynamic um interplay between how am i feeling and how are the people around me feeling yeah that's the first r i find that really really interesting and i guess then a follow-up from that uh mark is how do we if if the first r is recognize how do we know if what we think we're feeling is the way we're feeling or the way that we think other people think that we're feeling I mean how do we get that sort of level of expertise yeah and so it's by building really really good relationships and being honest and authentic so for example um ask me how I'm feeling. How are you feeling today, Mark?

Fine. Nowhere to go, right? Yeah. All right. Ask me again. How are you feeling today, Mark? You know, it's weird. It's like this odd mixture of frustration, despair, overwhelm, and like jittery. And you're thinking to yourself like, oh, shit. I'm actually thinking what an incredible range of words he has to describe his emotions but yeah you know so like i think this all goes back and as you know you read my

book to the origin of my interest in this field which you know from is from life experience but also a very important relationship with my uncle and I think what my uncle was able to do was not project or attribute emotion to me. But what he was able to do was build an incredible relationship with me to then provide the space for me to have what I call the permission to feel and be my true feeling self with him. for me to have what I call the permission to feel and be my true feeling self with him. And so I think, you know, what's missing in our culture, and I think this is ubiquitous, pretty much, is this comfort with feeling, you know, that I can say I'm feeling whatever I said, anxious, overwhelmed, angry, jittery, despair.

And like, you're not going to be like, as my dad, as my partner, as my boss, you're not going to be freaked out by it or like, or frozen by it. What you'll be is curious and compassionate. And so to me, that first R in RULER really embeds all of that idea of wanting to have the relationship, you know, because there's so many things that happen, right? When you ask me how I'm feeling, right? A, I'm making, my brain is saying, do I tell the truth? Do I tell the truth? Am I going to be honest and open? am I going to be honest and open? If I am honest and open, then you have assumptions on your end, which are, do you know what to say back to me? Do you have the time? Are you willing to support me? I mean, think about all that goes into me being open with you. And then there's like, all right, so what's the strategy? Like, what do I do if it's an emotion that's not helpful or is getting in the way of achieving goals?

Then how do I help this person? And then even more importantly, as a parent, how do I help my child eventually help themselves get through life? So it's a lot. Are there people in society in the work that you have done who are quite good with their emotions? It's a particular subset of people you've seen, oh wow, this group for some reason seems to be pretty good at labeling and dealing and processing their emotions, or is it pretty universal that

generally we struggle to do this? I know, I hate to say this, but I think it's pretty universal. I wish, you know, I have found obviously people who, you know, are interested in social work and counseling and psychology are slightly better at this. But I think what I found or what we find is that they're generally more empathic, but they're not necessarily more emotionally intelligent. Right. Because you really have to learn the vocabulary.

You really have to learn the evidence based strategies for managing feelings. And truth is, none of us are taught this stuff. You know, I'm very fortunate. You know, I have an approach to teaching this work in schools throughout the world. I have many, many, many schools in England. Actually, there's a fabulous school in London called the Charles Dickens School that is one of our top ruler users and kind of checked him out. And I've worked in schools throughout Kent and elsewhere. Although interestingly enough, talking about mindsets, about feelings,

one of my first trips to England to do a training on our program on emotional intelligence, I was at a very fancy private school. I'll keep the name anonymous. And this teacher, she must've been in her 70s. She was there for many, many years, 15 minutes into my full day training. She was there for many, many years, 15 minutes into my full day training. She looks at me and she says, my job is not to talk to my students about

my feelings. And I was sort of like, okay, it's nine o'clock in the morning. We got a full day here. Like anybody else got a different perspective and anyway it was a fascinating moment in my career and i've witnessed this over and over again whether it be in education or in the medical profession whereas it's like this phobia this like it's not my job to talk about feelings as if feelings aren't part of who we are every single day in every moment of the day yeah Yeah. So first are recognizing emotions, paying attention what's going on in your body, in your mind, paying attention to other people's facial expressions, body language, vocal tone, few things here, bias can get in the way.

So if you are prejudiced or racist, you will over-identify negative emotions or anger, for example, in people of color's facial expressions. Because of that bias, it will go into your analysis of people's expressions. So we need to be super mindful about, not even if you are prejudiced or racist, but if you are a majority group person who is only used to being around other, let's say, white people, you're going to make more errors in reading people of color's facial expressions. So that's R. Then there's the U of ruler, understanding. So why am I angry?

Why am I afraid? What's underneath frustration versus overwhelm? So recently I gave a speech to about a hundred superintendents. Those are big leaders of schools. And I asked them, what's the psychological difference between anxiety, frustration, stress, and overwhelm. What do you think the number one response was? I imagine either they were lost for words or they said they were all kind of manifestations of the same feeling.

Exactly. You hit it spot on. They all said, oh, there's no difference. I'm like, this isn't a trick question. And so this gets into like this understanding of emotion is quite important because it's not only like the language piece that we're going to get to in a moment. It's really understanding that anxiety is about like my mind is perceiving uncertainty in my surroundings. Frustration is like there are blocks. My goals are being blocked.

Stress. I've got too many demands. Not enough resources. Overwhelmed. I'm just overcome by lots of feelings. And so why this matters is because, as we say, you got to label it to regulate it. You got to name it to tame it. And so if you don't even know how you're feeling or how the language to describe it, if you're a parent, right, as you are, if your kid can't

label their feelings, like, how do you know what to do to support them? What happens when you don't understand emotions or have the skills to label them, the R, U, and L, is that you rely on, like, things like my parents relied on, like avoiding. Go to your room, right? Because you get overwhelmed by your kid's feelings, right? Kid is like, I can't take it anymore. I hate you. And you're thinking, who do you think you are to talk to me that way? You know, I'm your father. You should respect me. Meanwhile, your kid, you know, might've been beaten up at school and he's feeling bullied and shame and doesn't know how to express it because

they don't have the language to express it. And he's embarrassed. He has feelings about his feelings and he's embarrassed and he's, you know, scared that he's also afraid. And he's just acting out. Because he doesn't have the permission to feel. And he doesn't have an adult around him to support him and labeling those feelings and understand those feelings. But yet, what happened to my family was it was too much. It was a lot of too much work. So I'm going to like go to your room, get out of my face. And of course, you know, that's why I got my doctorate in emotional intelligence. It's so important what you just said for me, Mark.

I'm not saying you're a bad father. I keep on using you as the example. I apologize. Hey, look, we're all looking to learn. I'm looking to learn all the time and improve how I parent and how I live my life. And, you know, emotions is something that my wife and I talk about a lot. You know, my daughter who's eight at the moment, she often displays what might be interpreted as anger. But as I've sort of been researching your work and diving into your book, it feels like there's this sort of, I don't know, primary emotions, secondary emotions, tertiary emotions. I mean, she's outwardly giving off these signals to, let's say, me or my wife. But obviously,

then what you want to do instead of doing, we don't do this to be fair, but instead of being, you know, you can't speak to me like that, go to your room, you know, or go on the naughty step, you shouldn't be talking to daddy like that. For example, we don't do that, actually, we're, you know, we, we do try and understand what's going on here. But it's hard, because if I don't have the language, and she doesn't have the language, well, how do we start to unpick that? I'll tell you one thing I do, and I'm not saying I'm doing the language, well, how do we start to unpick that? I'll tell you one thing I do, and I'm not saying I'm doing the right thing, is we, stroke I, I'm a big fan of journaling as a way of trying to process things. And so when the kids are feeling like this, or however they're feeling,

it's often, well, if you want, you might want to just go and write in your journal, see what comes out, maybe write down the way you're feeling. It just, for me, I feel as I'm trying to teach them something that they can proactively do to at least start, process and regulate them. Now, I'm not saying I'm doing the right thing. I'm open to hearing a better way of doing it, but that's currently our strategy or certainly my strategy. I think you're getting on the right track. I want to say that there's something in advance of the skill. And if you've read my book, so you know what I'm going to get at, it's this idea of A, giving yourself and other people the permission to feel. and other people have permission to feel? Are you open to emotion or are you closed to emotion?

And that's related to another principle that I've written about, which is the emotion scientist versus the emotion judge. And so obviously, I'm on this mission to build a world of emotion scientists who are open to emotion, who are curious about feelings, who want to get granular and specific. They're not like good or bad. It's like, no, no, no, no. How much anger is it? Enraged? Is it livid? Is it angry? Is it frustrated? Is it peeved? Is it annoyed? Is it just uncomfortable? How much happiness is it? Is it contentment or is it ecstasy? Is it disappointment? Is it despair? or is it ecstasy? Is it disappointment? Is it despair? If someone is feeling angry, why does it matter whether they can label that, you know, this five or six possibilities sort of within anger? What benefit does that have to that individual and to those around them? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show.

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That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. live more. So I think as a prevention methodology, I'll give you the example. So many, many years ago, I worked in New York City's public schools, and I worked specifically in the schools with children who were labeled emotionally disturbed. And the teachers confidentially shared with me things like they would get kicked by kids they would get chairs thrown at them by kids but they were so loving and caring about these kids that they did not want to report them because they knew they would get in major trouble and then we taught them ruler which is our approach to social and emotional learning and we gave them the mood meter which is our signature tool for plotting feelings and being emotionally self-aware. And then we taught kids to understand what it felt

like in their mind, their body to feel peeved and irritated versus angry versus enraged. And what would happen is that when the kids were starting to feel their body temperature heat up, or their heart start racing, or their mind going in a place that was uncomfortable. They would say, I need a strategy. I need a strategy. And so think about that for you as a parent. And I'm not going to ask you to be too self-disclosing right now, but in your whole life, whether as a parent or partner, kid, have you ever been like so angry and frustrated that you just like could not deal with it 100 yes multiple occasions in the past and have you ever noticed that like like in a relationship um like you go like the

first thing you're like okay like that was annoying and then you don't say anything or do anything and then it becomes and you're irritated and then you're kind of anything or do anything, and then it becomes, and you're irritated, and then you're kind of like, right? It escalates. Yeah, for sure. And so prevention is always better than intervention. It's a lot harder to help someone manage their feelings once they've thrown the chair at the teacher. Yeah.

It's a lot easier to manage irritated peeve than it is enraged and livid and furious. So I don't know if that's a good enough example for you but for me it's like important because um the more language we have and the more nuanced we are the more self-aware we are the better able we are to help ourselves and other people yeah it sounds like you know it's emotions, they exist on a continuum. I mean, of course, they're always changing, but you don't want to wait until it's gone to the top. And, you know, it's a full blown tantrum, you want to catch it when it's just starting to move along that slope. Yeah, so you can hopefully turn it around at that point, or at least stop

it escalating or minimum or lower the risk? You don't necessarily, this is the other issue is that emotion regulation is not always about getting rid of the emotion. It's about using the emotion wisely. So like, I honestly, you know, I have had anxiety problems my entire life. honestly, you know, I have had anxiety problems my entire life. I worry about everything. I even worry about why I worry. And the truth is, I worry about why I worry about why I worry. And the truth is, I don't really have much to worry about. I've got a very good life. I'm very, you know, pretty healthy and pretty happy. But nevertheless, my default is, But nevertheless, my default is something will go wrong today. And then now I share this with you because I've learned a lot about myself.

For example, during COVID, when these things kind of metastasized, right? It's like, you know, April, like the stock market's going to crash and my center's going to close. And, you know, like, what's going on here? Like, how am I going to work? What is my, how am I going to, you know, my family, my mother-in-law was living with us and she came for something in February. And then she couldn't go back to Panama for seven months. And we were like, okay, this is really like, the world's coming to an end i'm locked in my house and my mother-in-law is not going home and we can't really go shopping and we can't go visit people like there's a lot to worry about i'm fortunate that i don't have you know you know

i have a beautiful home and i have a beautiful family but my point as you can imagine is that that can take its toll on people. And I'm blessed that I was able to sit with those feelings and say, you know what, Mark? Like, it's legit. You got, there are things in this world, this COVID thing, there's a lot of uncertainty. So what am I doing to support myself and my family in the world? And so I channel that anxiety into a number of things. One is really using helpful strategies. I would take some deep breaths and I'd go into my hot air balloon, which is one of my secret strategies that I'm sharing with everybody. I jump into my hot air balloon and I go up in my hot air balloon.

I look down at my life and I'm like, okay, you're anxious about that. How much control do you have over that, Mark? How much control do you, Mark Brackett, have over the stock market right now during COVID? Zero. So then does it make sense to ruminate about that all day long? How is that rumination going to help anything with that? No. Okay. I'm worried about kids in schools. I think that parents and teachers are going to be struggling right now. How much control do you have over that? Well, actually quite a bit because my whole work is dedicated to supporting schools. How about I create a series of webinars with my team to support educators across the globe in managing their feelings? And that's what we did. We built a course that's available for free, and we've had over 100,000 educators register for ready, and we are helping people to learn evidence-based strategies to manage their feelings. And I'll give

you that link that you can share out. Yeah, but but let's see yeah it's just called managing emotions during uncertain and stressful times it's free it's on a platform called corsera and you just type it in and take the 10-hour course to learn about emotion management is that for anyone or specifically for teachers or can anyone go for teachers but you know what anybody could take it um the um you know my book is really more global you know this is specifically about regulation for classrooms and teachers but point is is that i had control over that and so i channeled my anxiety into like i'm going to build a kick-ass course with my team to support educators yeah so do you see what I'm getting at here is that like it's not about I wasn't thinking to myself what am I going to do to rip the anxiety

out of my head because the anxiety is legit yeah does that resonate yeah yeah it really does it's such a powerful example because we we can think of it as playing out maybe in two possible ways. So let's say you weren't able to understand, you know, what these emotions were, where they were coming from, if you couldn't label them, then I imagine that they would be repressed inside of you and it would come out in some way, whether it's a row with your family, whether it's too much wine in the evenings or too much time on social media, you know, some sort of coping mechanism because these emotions, they don't just, if you don't deal with them, it's not like it goes somewhere. It always goes somewhere. But because you were able to be skilled at actually understanding, well, going through your whole ruler approach, basically, you were able to then do something about it. So not pretend it didn't exist, not get rid of it

necessarily, understand that it was serving you in some way, but then come up with a strategy. So in terms of strategy, you had your hot air balloon strategy, which sounds as though it takes you out of your life and gives you that 30,000 foot view, that real perspective, which could often be missing when we're inside our life. Yes. Is your family healthy? Okay, good. So not everything is crumbling right now, right? The few things, but we are such multifaceted people when you get in that hot balloon you can look down and think oh wow there are a lot of things actually going pretty well right now to be honest with you um i got to know my partner and my mother-in-law better than i've

ever known them before because yeah i'm usually on the road 50 of the time my partner is a filmmaker on the road and so what was very interesting is that we were like, you know, first we were like ready to pull each other's eyes out, but that's a whole nother story. You know, like in the hallway, it's like, all right, do I say good morning? I'm like sick of saying good morning to you every day. We're usually, we usually have some space. We have to have another meal together. You know, who's cooking, who's cleaning. It was like, you know,

a whole thing anyway. You know, who's cooking, who's cleaning? It was like, you know, a whole thing. Anyway. Did you do the hot air balloon sort of practice in your head? Just so people listening or watching can actually really make it really practical for them. Or do you write it down or does it not matter? Oh, it's in the moment.

It's in my head. And you can do it on paper too. I think it's in the moment. It's in my head. And you can do it on paper too. I think it's a fabulous exercise. For me, it's just like, it's perspective taking. Because you know what happened a lot during the pandemic? People needed to talk. Like they needed, right? We were socially isolated.

We were quarantined. And for many of us, even people like myself who are introverted, right, we craved connection. And then when we connected, what we do is we would complain and we would vent. And what research shows is that it's not helpful. Like I can't, you know, Dr. Chowdhury, I can't take it anymore. Like I'm losing it. Like everything, like I can't, you know, I don't know what to do anymore. I'm like, I'm claustrophobic at home. And then my partner's driving me crazy. And my mother-in-law's also driving me crazy. And my two dogs, they just bark all the time. And I have to hide in the bathroom to have meetings. That's not helpful. People think it is because it's like, I'm getting it off my chest. But that just actually helps you rehearse all

the things that are going wrong for you. And so in those situations, what we need to do is engage in reappraisal or perspective taking. And then you say, you would say to me, if you were skilled in emotional intelligence, say, hey, Mark, I hear all these things that are not going so well for you. Why don't we take a look at some of them and see what we can do about them? And so you're forcing me to pause, to to reflect and to look at things from another lens that is what's helpful to help people manage their feelings where does that fit in the ruler model so let's think about this r-u-l we have um we've woken up we can can, you know, I'm noticing how people are feeling. I'm noticing my own feelings.

Trying to understand where they're coming from. Trying to articulate them clearly with the precise words. We call that the experiential aspects of Ruler. And then the question is, all right, so what do I do with these feelings? Do I talk about them? Do I share them? How do I manage them? And that's the E and the R of ruler. So expressing emotions, knowing how and when to express my emotions. Think about that for a minute, knowing how and when to express my emotions across contexts. how and when to express my emotions across contexts.

So for example, there are so many rules around expressing emotion. There's cultural rules, right? Like think about it. Are the rules in the UK different than the rules in New York City? Little bit, not majorly different, but the rules in South Korea, where I visited quite a bit, are really different than the rules in New Haven, Connecticut, where I live. Think about it. The eye contact, handshaking,

talking about feelings in public. I'm a neurotic Jewish psychologist. All I know how to do is talk about my feelings. But what can people do? So look, you're making a very strong case that talking or in some way, being able to express our emotions is very, very important. Yet, certainly here in the UK, but in many countries around the world, the norm is not for us to express them. There's all kinds of phrases, aren't there, in the common vernacular about, I don't know, you know, boys don't cry, for example. I mean, you know, crying is a form of expressing an emotion, I guess. But boys are told not to cry. It still happens.

A family member recently said that to my son. And I'm cringing thinking, please don't say that because I don't want my kids growing up thinking, actually, it's not okay to express those emotions. But what can people do? Because that's really interesting. You're talking about how we do it, when we do it, where we do it. Some people, I guess, may feel they don't have people around them where they can safely express those emotions. So what is the strategy for those people? Well, I think you're making a really important point here, but I do want to say that we often overemphasize these large cultural differences in terms of like people in england you know the stiff upper lip but you know yes that may be you know historically that way but i have been to england 20 times i've met very warm loving

caring people who want to talk to me about their feelings all day long and And so it's not like, it's not like emotionally phobic, you know, emotionally, you know, whatever. The second is, I think it has to do with going back to that being a scientist versus a judge. So you, like you begin building these insights, right? And like, And like, is how I'm feeling helping me, helping my country achieve its goals? And so, for example, in China, given many cultural things there, we have been asked to build an entire center for emotional intelligence because the Chinese, you know, many people in China have recognized the value and importance of teaching emotional intelligence. We're in schools throughout Mexico.

We're in schools in Italy and Spain, Australia. And so there is a universality to feeling where the difference is like is actually in this E primarily, there's differences in not so much the R because recognition of emotion is a underlying thing that we do for ourselves and other people. The you is pretty universal. Anger is always about injustice no matter where you are. But what I see as an injustice and what you see as an injustice may be completely different based on our life experiences. Labeling, pretty similar, although there are cool words that we don't have, like schadenfreude, which is a German word for the pleasure that we get from watching someone else's misfortune.

It's a kind of a scary little word, but nevertheless. Or mudita, which is a Sanskrit word for experiencing vicarious joy. But the real differences come in this E of expressing. My society has deemed it inappropriate, you know, to do X. Or, for example, in America, racism, and elsewhere, not just in America, right, has created a rule that certain populations don't have the privilege to express their anger, because there are serious repercussions for that, like being killed. So I think of emotion expression as a life or death experience. As you know from my book, I was sexually abused as a child. My abuser threatened me that I could not share what was going on because I would be hurt and my family would be hurt. What does that do to a child? It just, it destroys them, because they're

living with all these feelings of being abused and not having an outlet for them. And for me, it ended up in self-harm. It ended up in an eating disorder. It ended up in failing school and crying and depression. So that can't help anybody when you're trapped with your feelings. And I just think that we need to educate society about these things, these principles, you know, that are, that the, the expression of emotion is, I'm going to say it's a human right. is, I'm going to say it's a human right. And so when you think about it as a fundamental human right, it changes your perspective on it. I really love what you said about different cultures, racism, different races, how that plays into what is acceptable. You also wrote in the

book that if men are forceful, they're seen as being strong and assertive. If women are forceful, they're often seen as being bossy and cowardly, which I found really fascinating as well that even if they are expressing an emotion, the way the world around them interprets that emotion can be really different based upon our own biases and what we picked up and that that that's pretty pretty complex to start unwinding all of that isn't it it's not gonna happen overnight but it's gonna have to happen otherwise we're just gonna blow up as a world um and again going in in learner mode as opposed to knower mode can make a huge difference yeah be that compassionate emotion science so for example culturally we you know i um i've traveled all over the world i've

been had so much fun learning about emotions in other countries one example was in croatia and i was with a friend who is croatian and i'm taking this morning walk on the adriatic sea and i'm thinking to myself, so beautiful. And I'm by myself and all these people are passing me by. And I'm like, good morning. Good morning, like a typical Americano. And everybody's giving me this weird look like, who is this weirdo? And so then, of course, like many of of us i fell into the emotion judge and i went back to my hotel and i said hey zarana you know i'm curious like you know why are people so unfriendly here you know and i was like you know snapped into judge mode and she goes unfriendly like that

may be your perception but in croatia we don't do like that like hello you know you know and then she says the reason why people look confused is they're wondering who is this weirdo who's saying hello and then moving up like they're thinking to themselves like I must know this person from somewhere but they're being really rude by just moving by not stopping to actually talk to me yeah it's this this thing about being an emotion judge versus emotion scientist I think it's fantastic and about being an emotion judge versus emotion scientist, I think is fantastic and reminds me a little bit of recent guests I had on the show were Carol and David who wrote a book called Connect from Stanford. They've been teaching a course on interpersonal skills and interpersonal dynamics at Stanford

for I think 55 years now the course has been running touchy feely thing yeah the touchy feely thing and and actually i had a conversation with them very recently and when you said why are they so unfriendly here it just reminded me of one of their concepts about over the net that in any situation there's there's three perspectives you only ever know two of them like You know your intention, you know what everyone else watching would know, that's the second perspective. But then the third one, you don't know. And as soon as you try and pretend you know, you're going over the net. And it sounds like that is a classic over the net comment. Why were they being unfriendly? So I guess from that, at the heart of your book and what you're trying to teach the world, I guess, is more empathy.

Empathy to the world around us, but also empathy to ourselves, I guess, in some ways, right? Well, I think it's empathy plus. Because here's the thing. i may be able to feel what you're feeling because we've experienced similar things or because we've had the same experiences so for example um i'm a white guy from the united states um you are tell me who you are a man from I'm born and brought up in the UK, but my parents are Indian immigrants from Calcutta. They came over to the UK in the 60s and 70s. But I'm born and brought up here. Yeah. But you have different color skin that I have, and

different religious background probably. And you know, I grew up in New Jersey, which is, you know, a suburb of New York City. Parents who were second generation from Poland and England and Austria. And that's what I learned. You know, I learned what they provided me. You learned, you know, what your family provided you and it's limited it's limited knowledge right i remember the first time i went to new york city and i walked around new york city i was like oh my goodness this is like this is fascinating um even like for example

when i um when i grew up being gay was like my mother's hairdresser. That's what I thought was gay, like a flamboyant person who does women's hair. You know, and then I went to New York City. I'm like, oh, God, there's like tough guys who are just like bankers. It was like mind blowing to me, you know, like just because I was so naive in my, what I knew and what I experienced, you know, and, and so like, if we go through life, you know, only, but the things that we learned early on in life, it's going to be just so limited. And then we go in as this curious emotion scientists, right? It's like, tell me more oh i'm curious um it just first it makes life much more interesting um and secondly you're going to make a lot less enemies and mistakes in life yeah our childhood influences us in so many ways in terms of our you know adult behaviors many of them

even we you know i swing to gabble maté multiple occasions on this show about how childhood adversity childhood experiences plays out in so many different ways when we're adults but if we think about emotions specifically, where do emotions come from and how much are they influenced by the way that we saw other people express or not express their emotions when we were growing up? I learned about anger from my, my father had terrible anger problems and like his pierced eyes and his pressed lips and his, you know, threats and anger, um, really affected me as a kid. Um, and so I, even my feelings around it, I, you know, I grew up, I have now as an adult, after studying mindfulness and emotional intelligence for 30 years of my life, I've learned to deal with it. But for many, many years, I was afraid of anger. I had a fear of anger because anger for me was out of control. And now I see anger as a productive emotion to fight against injustice, to help the underdog.

Totally different mindset. But you know how many years I had to spend learning about this stuff and practicing it and breathing in and out and not taking on my father's anger and that intimidation that I had? I remember a little kid at five, six, 79, 10 years old, big angry dad, gritty teeth, yelling, screaming, spankings. That's what I learned about anger. My mother had very similar anger. She'd run around hitting us for things too. My parents were, I know my mother and father loved me to death. However, they had no training in emotional intelligence. And so they were, they were, you

know, my father grew up in a family where, you know, he shared a story with me once that his father used to take a cigarette and when he was mean, and he would just like, literally put a cigarette out on my father's arm. So think about the abuse my father endured from his own father. You know, my mother's mother, my mother took her own mother for shock therapy for depression when she was a teenager. Yeah. And so like, what is, you know, think about that. Imagine bringing your mother to have shock therapy. Imagine your father burning your arm with a cigarette. Like, where the heck do you learn empathy, compassion, emotional intelligence. And I want to just say one last thing about this, which is you learn empathy, compassion, emotional intelligence?

And I wanted to say one last thing about this, which is you said empathy. And so I think empathy is a big piece of it, but it's insufficient because I may be able to share, while I don't have your cultural background, you don't have my cultural background, maybe you have experienced prejudice in your life. People have seen you as being different because of the color of your skin. I don't have that because I'm a majority group, you know, white person. But I've experienced the feeling of being different because I had a big nose as a kid. I'm Jewish, too, you know, being bullied. And so you've experienced shame in your way. I've experienced shame in my way.

And so we can share the empathy for the feeling of shame, which I think is at the core of our ability to connect. However, that's where empathy stops. And that's not sufficient from my perspective, because firstly, I've got to use the skills of emotional intelligence to to pick up all those cues but it also comes into play with well as your friend or if you were my son can i support you in managing the shame and going beyond the shame and empathy doesn't go there that's where emotional intelligence goes yeah really fascinating that really really fascinating one of the things that i found most helpful uh in your book is this gorgeous chart at the uh at the back this all the i mean i i mean you'll probably at the top of your head, but the list of lots and

lots of different emotions, what is it? 50, 100, 100 emotions, right, on there. I don't know what the research is showing, the average number of emotions people are able to express, perhaps you could share that. But as well, sort of related to that, I find the way you've color coded it, you know, red, blue, yellow and green. So red and blue being low pleasantness, yellow and green being high pleasantness. Really, really interesting. This has really helped me this chart. I would encourage every person to look at this and try to articulate their emotions using this chart. But I think I've heard you say before...

We have an app, by the way, that corresponds with it. Oh, really? Yep. The Mood Meter app. And you can just go to moodmeterapp.com. Oh, fantastic. Well, I think it's such a helpful resource. I think I've heard you say that when you ask people in public about this, sort of 60 to 70%, I think, will say, I think you said we're in the yellow and green. And when you ask them in private, it's the opposite. So we have a bias between expressing positive emotions in public and sort of negative ones in private. So I wonder if you could just unpick some of that for me. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you

know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last.

Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. And I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress,

make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them

and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. Well, you're getting to another aspect of that E in RULER, which is emotional labor, which is that, you know, you're a doctor, right? Could you imagine like you walk in to see one of your patients and you're like, you say to your patient, hey, how's it going? And your patient says, oh, I'm feeling, you know, frustrated and scared. And you're like, yeah, me too.

That's going to be a little awkward. And so you have to go through life, given your job, engaging in a lot of masking of your true feelings. Just like if you're a kindergarten teacher, you teach little five-year-olds, right? You can't be like, you know, imagine I was a kindergarten teacher, like, good morning, boys and girls. Mr. Brackett is really, I'm kind of depressed today. That's not going to go over very well. How many parents are going to want to drop off their kid to that class? By the way, I have seen that, which freaks me out, but that's a whole nother story. And so there's a discrepancy oftentimes between what we show on our face and what we feel on the inside. And that takes its toll on us over time. You know, as a

leader, you know, you have to show that you are functioning well, that you are managing your emotions effectively, you have to engage in this labor. Now, here's an interesting story, or not story, here's an interesting tidbit about this. So imagine you, you have two children, you said. Two children. Yeah. Okay. So you have ever had like a day at work where you're just like, maybe something didn't go well with a colleague or someone.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And so you get home from work and you're at dinner and you say, Hey kids, you know what? Daddy had a really hard day at work. I said something, something happened, you know, in my office. And I was just, I said something that was really mean. And I've been thinking about it all day. And I'm wondering, A, you know, what can I say tomorrow to maybe apologize and let the person know that I was in a bad place? And B, how can I not let this happen to me again, or like less so? Think about what you just did.

A, you tell your kids that you experience negative emotions. B, you share with your kids your experiences. C, you're telling them that you reflect about things. D, you show them that you are trying to problem solve. All in that three minute interaction with dinner. How many parents do you think are doing that with their kids? Yeah, I mean, I don't know the percentage, but I got to say, Mark, I would say, as you said that, I felt really quite emotional because I feel that that is probably the biggest thing I've changed in my parenting over what, nearly 11 years of being a dad. I think in the early years,

I felt I had to portray a certain image of what a dad is. And, you know, I don't have any problems and I've got everything sorted. But I don't know when, it's probably a good five, six years now, where I've really, as I've understood the power of emotions more and more, I think I want to model to my kids that actually, yeah, daddy has struggles sometimes. Or maybe daddy got something wrong that, or not wrong, daddy did something that actually he might want to change. And I don't know what is normal anymore because we have these discussions all the time at breakfast and at dinner. And sometimes I think,

am I overdoing it with the kids? But I'd like to think I'm not because I sort of feel that if they see me and my wife doing that, that they're going to think, oh, it's normal. It's normal to recognize this stuff. And I'm guessing that's what you would teach, is it? 100%. The trick is that you don't want your kids to think that you're emotionally, you know, a basket case and that they have to support you. You want to demonstrate that you feel the full mood meter, right? Because a lot of parents think parents think yo daddy's doing great today or they're clueless and they're just in a one quadrant like living where they are temperamentally and they don't really express other feelings um you want to really in my opinion share that you experience

the full range of emotions and provide examples for what makes you feel disappointed what makes you feel angry what makes you elated what makes you feel calm and content. And then demonstrate that you have strategies to manage those feelings. So I want to ask you about something to do with masks. And I've been going deep into this subject area for the last few months. I'm currently working on my next book and there's a chapter on masks and when we wear them and when we can take them off. And something you just said there triggered a thought in masks and when we wear them and when we can take them off. And something you just said there triggered a thought in me. So you mentioned the kindergarten teacher doesn't necessarily want to go in and say, oh, you know, I'm having a bad day today and life's not good,

right? And early on when talking about the benefits of, you know, being in tune with our emotions, you mentioned the word being authentic. So something I've been wrestling with recently is what does it mean to be authentic? Because you could argue that if a kindergarten teacher who is really struggling and having a bad day comes in and expresses that or acts that out, that they are being authentic to the way that they're feeling. And so the question is, when is it appropriate to wear masks? And as we wear certain masks, are we potentially kidding ourselves and not acknowledging how we're feeling? And where I've currently come to, and I'd really welcome your view on this, is that it's okay to wear masks at various times.

But what you don't want to do is wear a mask without understanding what's really going on. So if you at least understand what's going on, you can recognize it to yourself, but then choose to act in a certain way. But I think many of us are acting in a certain way without actually taking the time to understand how we really feel. Help me out. Am I onto something? Would you agree? Would you disagree? I think you're making good sense out of this.

The way I would think about it in my own language and thinking is if you're an emotion scientist, you understand how children's brains develop. And so you'll know that, you know, you're not going to tell if you're going through a divorce and your wife is having, you know, cheating on you, you're not going to say, you know, to your five-year-old, you know, you know, you know, mommy's having an affair with another man and I feel envious of that man and I hate her. Like that's not going to be helpful for that five-year-old's social and emotional development.

Although I can imagine a scenario where someone was so detached from their emotions and so worked up with rage that they might actually say that to their child. I've seen it. Really? Yes. Wow. I'll never forget. You made me think, you know, you're bringing up all my stories

that I've repressed in my presentations. I was at a school, a very elite private school in New York City, preschool. Boy came to school and the father said to him that morning, your mother loves another man and you're going to have a new daddy. And that was it. And he left and went out to work because that was his way of getting even with his wife. Now, in my opinion, he's damaged that child in ways that, you know, are going to

take, you know, many months and years of therapy, because that's a harsh thing to say to a little kid. And that's another, that's the lack of emotional intelligence, right? Yeah. That could be prevented. And it will be prevented if we ensure that everyone gets an emotion education. And so, yes, of course, just because you have the permission to feel doesn't mean you have the permission to express every emotion to every single person at every moment of every day. You know, I was out to dinner with some friends the other night, and this husband and wife, we were talking about something, and the husband decided in the moment to like scold his wife.

You know, you're being judgmental right now or something, he said. And I was like, I felt like, that was embarrassing. That was humiliating um and so in that moment you know he could have felt it and then maybe on the drive home he could have said you know hey honey you know i thought you were being really judgmental in that moment but there was no need for him to express his emotions in front of everybody because he wasn't taking into consideration the health and wellness of his wife yeah it's there's nuance everything's nuanced in this work yeah i i get the strong feeling that the more you know everything's really about choice isn't it really

the more aware you become about anything in life whether it was emotions or anything else the more choice you have is like oh i'm aware now aware now of this. Now I can choose. But without that awareness, you just sort of blurt things out, you're reacting. And I really feel that, I think, as I say, I know I love that chart because it gives you, I think one of the biggest limiting factors, certainly for me, but certainly what I can gather in society as well, is we don't have the vocabulary. I mean, what is the average amount of words people have to describe their emotions? Have you done research on this? You know, it's hard to do that research because it depends on how you ask the questions, right? But I do know, you know, from my million people that I presented

to have met more, you know, most people say fine, okay, busy, pissed, stressed, not, they don't say pissed in, in the UK, because it means something different. The, and so the, it's limited, you know, we're not saying, you know, jubilant, or ecstatic, or contentment, you know, or hopelessness, despair, frustrated, overwhelmed, you know, we're not getting granular. That's my hope is that we will. I think it's important though, because what you're, all of your questions are leading to the big final R of ruler, which is regulation. And so that example I said of that couple in the restaurant is interesting, right? Because he was feeling maybe anger, you know, that his wife

was being judgmental. And then he felt the need to not manage it, but to express it. He thought in the moment, the strategy that's going to work best to deal with my feeling is to make fun of my wife or to put her down or embarrass her in front of other people. Now, he might not have had that hot air balloon look at this thing, right? He might have just been impulsive about it. been impulsive about it. And so this is where, you know, emotion regulation is so important because you can't always say what you want to say when you want to say it to whoever you want to say it to. Like there are norms in life. You do have to learn how to manage your feelings. And because, right, think about it. Because, right, think about it. All of the dysregulation that my parents engaged with me on didn't lead to great outcomes for me, right?

It led me to secretly eat, to go buy ice cream and sit in my closet and eat ice cream, to engage in a lot of negative self-talk. And as a matter of fact, I'm jumping a little bit here, but so much of our emotion regulation ability stems from the way the adults in our lives spoke to us when we were kids. You're too fat. You're too skinny. You're too tall. You're too short. Your nose is too big. Your nose is too small. You're too dark. You're too skinny. You're too tall. You're too short. Your nose is too big. Your nose is too small. You're too dark. You're too light. Dark is bad. White is good. I mean, endlessly hearing these messages. And I can tell you that my negative self-talk, which is still pretty strong, has metastasized because it just grew and grew and grew and grew as I developed. Because there was not a lot of opportunity to go from self-criticism to self-compassion. Think about it. No one was saying, hey, Mark, gosh, you should try to look at this from a different perspective. Hey, Mark, there's got to be another way to look at this. Hey, Mark,

you know something? These people don't have the right to speak to you this way. That's meanness and cruelty. That's bullying. Now, I was blessed when I was a teenager, my uncle intervened and really helped me to think through these things. But I'm going to tell you right now, this is life's work. I thought, okay, Mark, fifth degree black belt in the martial arts. All right, you're confident now. PhD in psychology. Cool. Professor at Yale, tenured. Cool. And then the pandemic hit and I started having panicky feelings. I started ruminating more. I started all... And I was like, but you're 51, Mark. You're supposed to be a leading expert in emotional intelligence.

And what I realized was that I was not prepared for the pandemic. I hadn't experienced a pandemic before. And so I needed to go back to my strategies and practice them and refine them. Yeah. And it was hard work and it's still hard work. And so when people like all the time, I get these questions like, what's the best strategy? You know? And I, you know, I throw one out there like, that's the one i'm going to use and i'm like well guess what you know like positive self-talk is helpful but sometimes you got to solve the problem yoga is great like yoga everybody thinks yoga is the answer now i love that yoga is the answer to all of life's problems and i'm a yogi guy i've been

doing yoga now for 25 years um but like i have not seen the research which shows that downward dog you know reduces my envy um it's like you know where i work so many of the um the counseling groups they were like yoga and mindfulness solves everything because it's an easy quick fix and i'm thinking to myself it's not the way it works it's an easy, quick fix. And I'm thinking to myself, it's not the way it works. It's like breathing exercises. Everybody thinks breathing is the answer to all of your struggles with feelings. Does it help? Definitely. Is it sufficient? Definitely not. I mean, could it be the way people are doing these things. So let's say yoga, you know, yoga, if you know, and I am not a trained yoga instructor, just to be to be super clear. But my understanding is that, you know, yoga in its purest form is about bringing body, breath, mind, heart all together. It's not just a physical

practice. Can I get into this position? It's so much more than that. And I feel it's been misinterpreted a lot about being purely a physical practice. But let's say you practice yoga in this more holistic way. Presumably that can be a pathway into go, oh, I'm feeling a tightness here on my right upper back because I'm feeling stress. This could be anxiety. Oh, two weeks ago when I was practicing, I also felt that. And then that was when my email inbox was overflowing. Can it start to... Because what we're talking about massively is self-awareness. We're talking about not going outside, but turning around and going inside. So presumably there's a whole multitude of practices.

Meditation for someone might do nothing for their emotions, but for someone else, it might really tune into where they hold certain emotions, like in their body. You know, that isn't labeling it, but presumably that has value as well. No doubt. And I am a big proponent of all these things. What my argument is, is that we need a wide range of strategies. And then if we rely only on breathing, only on mindfulness, only on yoga, we're doing a disservice to ourselves and other people. If your kid is being bullied at school, you can't tell them that yoga is going to solve their feelings of shame and fear. It's just not going to work. They've got to learn how to build

their self-esteem. They have to learn how to negotiate power structures in life. And so the way I like to think about emotion regulation is as a holistic model of a it starts with giving yourself the permission to feel all emotions no judgment every emotion matters all emotions are information b breathing work is very very helpful especially when you're experiencing very intense emotions because it helps you to deactivate so that you can be present so that you can engage in the cognitive strategies yoga is wonderful it provides you this space it opens up your body it helps you to initiate neurochemicals that are helpful for experiencing more pleasant emotions never have felt worse after a yoga. I've only ever felt better.

But there are other, like sleep is a factor for your regulation. Nutrition is a factor for regulation. Other forms of exercise are factors for regulation. Your narrative, what you say to yourself when you make a mistake matters for your emotion regulation. Your connections with other people. Do you know that the mere presence of someone who you perceive to be loving and caring is a helpful strategy?

Wow. Have you ever been around someone who you just, their presence makes you feel at ease? Yeah, for sure. It's incredible. What a gift for someone else. What a gift to be able to give another human being. You know, when I was on my book tour recently,

before the pandemic, like really running around, I gave a talk in New York State. And I never really spoke about my relationship with my uncle before, because it wasn't something that was that relevant to my career. But having writing, having written a book about it, it became relevant to my story. And I shared this concept of permission to feel and how my uncle was that one adult who gave me that permission to feel. And then I asked people to reflect on, did you

have someone in your life give you the permission to feel? Literally. Was it a parent, a cousin, a relative, a teacher, a coach who just provided the space for you to be your true, full, feeling self? And so many people said no. Some people said yes. And they said, well, what are the characteristics? They're compassionate, they're nonjudgmental, they're accepting, loving. And so what was very interesting to me was when I gave this one speech, somebody said to me, well, Mark, it sounds like your uncle was a miracle for you. And then he said to me, are you paying it forward? For whom are you and Uncle Marvin?

And of course I I almost I started froze because I realized that I'm a workaholic. I'm not that person. And it is since that day, that person said that to me, it was like a defining moment in my life. Like, am I making an moment in my life, like, am I making an effort to be that present person for other people? And it's hard work because it's not about you anymore, right? It's about the altruism. It's about the giving. And so, you know, when you're around people with that kind of energy, you have less of a need to regulate. Yeah. Does that resonate?

Yeah, it really does. It really does. I mean, you know, your Uncle Mama sounds like an incredible person. You used the word, the word miracle was used there. when you use the word that the word miracle was used there and I was thinking well we've all got it within us to be a miracle for somebody else haven't we we've all got that ability if we learn the language of emotions if we can can sit there and be present and be patient and not be a judge just be a a listener, right? Listen, let someone express in a safe space. And actually there was something that I underlined in the book,

Mark, when you mentioned your uncle and he said to you, how are you feeling? But you said it wasn't just what he said, it was the way he said it. And that was really quite profound for me. I knew he wanted to hear. I knew he wanted to listen. I knew he wouldn't tell me, well, toughen up or, you know, get some grit. Yeah. And how many of us ask questions like that? We don't really want the

answer. We're just exchanging pleasantries. You know, how are you? How's it going? These are just such common throwaway phrases now. How can we be a miracle to someone else? What are the skills we require if we are going to ask that question and ask it with a real intention to listen and not judge? So it goes back to everything we've spoken about. It's about A, building that mindset that all emotions matter. It's about giving yourself the freedom, the permission to feel all emotions and live without judgment. It's about the same for other people. It's recognizing that everyone deserves the permission to have their feelings, no matter what they are. And our

job is only to support them in using those feelings wisely. And that requires those R-U-L-E-R skills. You've got to be able to recognize your own and others emotions, understand where they're coming from. You can't really coach someone by telling them how they feel. Why are you so angry? Don't feel this way. You've got to ask the question to hear the themes. Oh, I'm noticing that my son's self worth has diminished. Oh, that's shame. Oh, I'm noticing that he is afraid because of danger. Oh, that's fear. You, the adult who are raising kids or the boss who's supporting colleagues, you've got to be aware of these concepts so that you can help other people label their feelings. But what do you say to them? Because there's a

part in either in your book or a previous interview that I've seen with you where I think it came up that the question, what's wrong to your child, you were saying it's not a very helpful question or maybe in not all situations. And that is something that I have used recently myself with my children. But reading that or hearing it made me think, okay, that's interesting. I'm very motivated to try and catch myself and change things. Very, very motivated. And one of my goals with this podcast is to help reflect on these things with other people so they can see them as well and go, oh, you know what? I do that with my kid. Maybe I can change that. How might we approach a difficult situation with our children instead of saying, hey, darling, what's wrong? Just say, you know, tell me more about what happened at school today. I'm curious to hear

more. You know, you said, you know, that you felt this way. I'm curious, you know, what made you feel that way? And just asking more open ended questions, then closed ended questions and not putting a value on the questions. So why would you feel that way? Right? What's wrong? Well, I haven't I had an aunt who did all time. She always called me and say, what's wrong? I'm like, you. I'm fine. Stop projecting all of your crap on me, lady. But that's the truth, isn't it? That is the truth. Often it's us projecting

our reactions to how we think they should be reacting back onto them and it's like no let them express it the way they want to express it as a parent like you are living with fear you want your kids to be healthy and happy and successful so and also like you're probably someone who is thinking that i'm probably the response partly responsible for what's going wrong and so i might as well find out what's wrong because then I could fix it. And there's no fixing, right? The fixing is a weird thing. There is managing, you know, over time. And so that can be very helpful. What if they won't speak to you? What if they won't answer that? Are there any, is this where journaling comes in? Is this where you go on a bike ride together and hoping that sort of kind of distracted environment things start to

come up rather than that intense one-on-one? Hey, what's going on? Tell me about school. Well, you can go crazy with this stuff, let me tell you. So obviously, I know a lot about this work and I can really get it wrong also. So my partner got into a fight the other day and I was like, are you angry, frustrated, overwhelmed, scared, nervous? And it was like, can you just shut up? I was so determined to label the feeling, you know? And I was like- It's like, I don't want your chart.

Just let me be angry the way I want to be angry. I know all the feelings. Tell me which one you're feeling. And I was like, oy. You know, it was quite an interesting moment. You know, and then, you know, I'm, you know, these meta moments, which is a strategy that I teach in my book around self-regulation to think about your best self. My partner says, oh, so you're taking the metamoment right now, right? I'm like, yeah. But you're still really irritated with me, right?

I'm like, well, I guess. And so now I'm like, oh, shit. I've got to monitor my facial expressions when I'm regulating, because then my partner recognizes that I'm regulating, and it's like, knows that I'm still angry. And so this is, you know, it's what makes it interesting and fun, but also like, it's like knows that I'm still angry and like this whole like and so this is you know it's what makes it interesting and fun but also like it's work yeah and again I want to just say because I don't think we have much time left that there's no perfection here you know and how about this how about just acknowledging that you messed up and apologizing

why is it so hard for us to say i'm sorry why is it so hard for us to forgive um i was fascinated by a study that was done on forgiveness that people who hold grudges versus people who forgive or have different consequences and think about this for a moment. They had this study where they randomly assigned people to write about their grudges or write about something they wanted to forgive someone about. And then they literally just asked them to jump up in the air. And do you know that the people who wrote about forgiveness jumped higher than the people who wrote about their grudges and so what that tells us is that sometimes just letting go makes us lighter literally like spiritually lighter yeah and so this is not a perfect science emotional intelligence is not a perfect science how we feel is so nuanced and complex.

And it's very different than other things that we learn in life. So for example, math has never been my major strong suit. I'm pretty good at it. I've learned enough math to be able to manage my checking account, count the change at the grocery store, analyze a bill. I'm pretty good with it. And I don't really need any more training in math to get through life. You know, I'm a pretty good writer. You know, I wrote a book.

I couldn't believe I was able to do that, but I did it. And I got great editing and support. But nevertheless, you know, I'm a good enough writer. I may never be good enough at dealing with my feelings because it's life. You can't predict your future. My mother died when I was 23 years old of pancreatic cancer. I never anticipated I would lose my mother at such a young age. You just don't know what's going to happen in life like the pandemic. And so I think the best we can do is give ourselves that permission to have the feelings that we have, to be those compassionate emotion scientists around our own and others' feelings, and to

kind of be on this continuous improvement cycle for our own healthy development and if we have that attitude i think we can have a really great life yeah so powerful what you're saying so powerful the work you're doing mark i i really appreciate you giving up some of your time today to talk to me. This podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our life. And clearly having more ability and intelligence around our emotions is certainly going to help us get more out of our life.

Right at the end of this conversation, Mark, I wonder, you've given some of your beautiful closing thoughts there. Are there any sort of practical tips, closing kind of, you know, things that you can just summarize here for people who are inspired to go, right, you know what? I want to do that. I want to take this seriously. I want to improve this. I mean, I would definitely say buy Mark's book. It is fantastic. It is so well written. It really is so, so practical. But yeah, any closing tips at all? So I think the first is, and I say this, but I'll get more specific, right? That permission to feel, right? Notice, am I judging my feelings

or am I allowing myself to feel? Like that's a task. Like literally at the end of the day, start reflecting on, did I allow myself to feel this way or was I automatically judging? Did I do that with myself? Did I do it with others? Going to that emotion scientist piece, I think the first place is to start with that recognition and labeling. Am I really articulating clearly my true feelings? So the mood meter, which is my book, right? Go to that mood meter and look at it and say, how am I really feeling? Not good or bad. You know, am I feeling irritated or am I angry? Am I down or am I disappointed? Am I calm or am I serene? Am I happy or am I optimistic? And try to get granular. Try to be specific. When you're hearing other people share their feelings with you,

ask yourself, you know, like, for example, if I said, you know, if I was a, you know, a kid with my dad, you know, you know, my father got a flat tire and I was so angry. I didn't get to go to my friend's house. Well, is that really anger? Like it was all legitimate. Your father didn't not want you to go. He probably was dying to drop you off actually. So it's probably you were disappointed because you had an expectation, right? That you were going to get to go somewhere, but life happened that got in the way. And so you didn't meet your goal. That's disappointment, not anger. So really helping kids and other people label the feelings precisely with the experiences they're having. And then, you know, my final suggestion to everyone is, does everyone have equal permission to express their feelings in your home in your workplace

does everyone feel comfortable what is your policy around talking about feelings is it one of openness and inclusiveness or is it one of closeness and judgment and that leads to the final r which we could spend a whole podcast on, which is regulating, right? What are your strategies? Are the strategies that you're using to regulate working for you or against you? And so that becomes another element of the emotion scientist, which is, am I lying to myself, you know, about my self-talk, right? Or am I, is my self-talk really, really working for me? I'll give you an example. During the pandemic, I made a commitment to exercising more. I'm like, I got more time than usually, right? I don't have to commute anymore.

I should be able to put in a lot more workouts. I'm like, Mark, you're going to be positive today. I go downstairs. I get into my living room where I work out. I put out my mat, I start doing crunches and I'm wearing shorts and my legs are really like pale. And I'm like, your legs look like glue. And then I start doing my crunches and I look at my stomach and I'm like, oh, you're never going to have that flat stomach that you wanted. That was the first freaking minute of my being awake. And'm like mark you made a commitment before you went to bed last night to use positive self-talk not self-criticism all right yeah but over again and so i encourage everyone to to listen to themselves

but also getting that hot air balloon about the strategies they're using to manage their feelings. Ask yourself, is what I'm doing to manage my frustration, my anger, my anxiety, to promote more joy, et cetera, contentment, are those strategies working for me? about yeah contentment are those strategies working for me like am i having greater wellness am i building and maintaining more beneficial relationships and positive relationships is my physical health in good place am i achieving my goals and if they're not working for you then start practicing new ones and give yourself the permission to just start over because this is life's work. Mark, thank you so much for all the work you're doing. You'll be helping hundreds of thousands,

millions of people all around the world, no doubt. It was a pleasure to meet you. One thing I wanted to say is that every couple of months I do this virtual book club. And so for people around the world who read the book, I take people through like five weeks of like live sessions with me going through each chapter where they can ask questions and do stuff like that. So how can people find that? Everything, everything about my work, you just go to my

website, which is Mark with a C bracket, B-R-A-C-K-E-T-T. By the way, I have a British last name. It's MarkBreckett.com. And from there, you can learn about my book, you can learn about the work I do in schools, and you can also learn about our company that does work in the corporate sector where we have a whole training program for people in the workplace and adults called OG Life Lab. All those links you're going to provide me, I'll put in the show notes so that people can, you know, who want to learn more about your work apart from the book can do that. And yeah, I hope your day is calm. I hope it's relaxing. I hope it's not as bad as you are potentially worried it might be. And hopefully I'll talk to you soon. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, please do think about one thing that you can take away from this episode and apply into your own life. If you want to learn more about Mark, pick up his book, or even find some of these online resources that he has made available to schools and to people all over the world. There are links to

all of them in the show notes page for this episode on my website. And before we finish, I really want to let you know about Friday Five. It's my weekly newsletter that contains five short doses of positivity. Now, there's usually a practical tip for your health in it. Sometimes I share a book, an article, a video that I found inspiring. I may share a recipe that I'm making. And I pretty much always finish with a quote that's caused me to stop and reflect. Basically, anything that I feel would be helpful and uplifting. I really do get such wonderful feedback from Friday 5 readers each week. Someone tweeted last week to say it's one of the only newsletters they regularly look forward to receiving every Friday. And I know many of you feel the same way. If that sounds like

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