Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #193 How Admitting Powerlessness Can Change Your Life with Benjamin Francis Leftwich

Episode Date: June 22, 2021

CAUTION: Contains themes of an adult nature. I believe that we can all learn something about ourselves from every single person we interact with and that it is through hearing other people’s stories that we can learn the most. Today’s guest has a really powerful story to share – he is the singer-songwriter, Benjamin Francis Leftwich. I’ve been a huge fan of his work since his 2011 debut album and I think his music connects with people in an incredible way. Ben’s fourth studio album, To Carry a Whale, has just been released – the first that he has recorded in sobriety. Ben and I begin by talking about the disconnect between success and happiness. At the peak of his early fame a decade ago, he confesses that contentment still eluded him. He had success, fame, opportunities, riches – Ben acknowledges all his privileges. But he could not shake feeling uncomfortable in his own skin, like there was a hole in his heart that he could not fill. In Benjamin’s case, it was drink and drugs he tried to fill the hole with. But as we discuss, addiction comes in many guises. I think to some degree we’re all seeking to fill that hole in our souls, to ‘fix’ whatever we feel is wrong or missing in our lives. We can all feel an emptiness at times. And whether it’s alcohol, sugar, caffeine, gambling, sex, shopping or something else we choose to fill it with, few of us are strangers to that feeling. That’s not to diminish what, for Ben, has clearly been a long and traumatic journey. It’s a privilege to hear him share so honestly about his experience – and what he’s learned in recovery over the past three years. There’s so much in what Ben does in recovery, one day at a time, that I feel could be helpful to each and every one of us. For example, we discuss the difference between saying sorry and really making amends – how the latter means being accountable, asking for forgiveness, while not trying to manipulate the other person’s response. And we talk about the importance of connection and community. How the regular meetings Benjamin and other recovering addicts attend have adapted online during the pandemic and retained their power. We cover so much in this conversation – including, of course, plenty about the music. We talk spirituality, the inherent goodness in people and his goal of progress not perfection. I’m struck by Ben’s gratitude and energy and grateful for his authentic and touching words. This is a powerful conversation and I really think you are going to enjoy listening. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction and would like help, here are some sites that you/they may find helpful: Alcoholics Anonymous (UK) https://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org.uk/ Alcoholics Anonymous (US & Canada) https://aa.org/ Alcoholics Anonymous (Australia) https://aa.org.au/ Narcotics Anonymous (UK) https://ukna.org/ Narcotics Anonymous (Worldwide) https://na.org/ Help Me Stop (UK) https://www.na.org/meetingsearch/ Help For Families (UK) https://adfam.org.uk/help-for-families/useful-organisations Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/193 Follow me on https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee   Follow me on https://www.facebook.com/DrChatterjee   Follow me on https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Love is a way forward and with time forgiveness and that forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting but like until I'm willing to like try and see it from a higher perspective I'm just in a cage. I cannot afford resentments or judgment because if I'm in a space of resentfulness or judgmentalism the sunlight of the spirit is blocked and I'm wrapped up in myself again, right back in the middle of my life. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. Hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast. You know, I often talk about the importance of pushing ourselves outside our comfort zone. This is a theme that has come up on many occasions in the past with my guests. And I think this week's episode of the podcast is me pushing myself out of my very own

comfort zone. I've long held the belief that we can all learn something about ourselves from every single person we interact with. And it's actually through the stories of other people that I feel we can learn the most. My guest today has a really powerful story to share. Now, he isn't what you would necessarily call one of my typical guests. He's not someone who would be considered an expert in a particular area of health, nor would he put himself out there as an expert. Yet, I think he has some wonderful life wisdom to share that we can all take something from. He is the incredible singer-songwriter, Benjamin Francis Lefwich. Now, I've been a big fan of Ben's work for many years. I've always loved the soulfulness and the raw emotion in his voice. And Ben actually came into the spotlight in 2011 when his debut

album, Last Smoke Before the Snowstorm, came out. And one of the tracks from that album, Shine, was officially Spotify's most addictive song of 2014. It was the track that was repeat played most often that year. His brand new album, his fourth one in fact, To Carry a Whale, has just been released. And it's actually the very first album that he has recorded entirely sober. And this struggle with addiction is actually at the heart of Ben's story. You see, Ben and I begin this conversation by talking about the disconnect between success and happiness. And you know, at the peak of his early fame a decade ago, Ben confesses that contentment still eluded him. You know, he just wasn't happy. He had success, fame, opportunities, and Ben acknowledges all of this,

but he still couldn't shake that feeling of being uncomfortable in his own skin. There was a hole in his heart that he just could not fill. Now, in Ben's case, it was drink and drugs that he tried to fill that hole with. But as we discuss, addiction comes in many guises. And I think to some degree, we're all seeking to fill that hole with. But as we discuss, addiction comes in many guises. And I think to some degree, we're all seeking to fill that hole in our souls and try our best to fix whatever we feel is wrong or missing in our lives. And I think, you know, from time to time, we can all feel a certain emptiness. And whether it's alcohol, sugar, caffeine, gambling, sex, shopping,

alcohol, sugar, caffeine, gambling, sex, shopping, or whatever else we choose to fill it with, I think very few of us are strangers to that feeling. That of course is not to diminish what for Ben has clearly been a long and traumatic journey. It's a privilege to hear him share so honestly about his experience, what he's learned in recovery over the past three years. his experience, what he's learned in recovery over the past three years. And there's so much in what Ben does in recovery one day at a time that I feel could be helpful to each and every one of us. For example, we discuss the difference between saying sorry and really making amends. We talk about the importance of connection and community and how those regular meetings that Ben and other recovering addicts used to have in person moved online over the past 12 months and still retain their power. We really do cover so much ground in this conversation. We talk about his music,

spirituality, the inherent goodness in people, and his goal of progress, not perfection. And throughout the entire conversation, I was really struck by Ben's gratitude, his energy, and I was really grateful for his authentic and touching words. This is a powerful conversation. I really think you're going to enjoy listening. And now my conversation with Benjamin Francis Lethwich. One of the big problems in society these days is that we confuse success and happiness. We kind of think they're the same thing, but it's really clear to me that they are two separate things. You can have them both, but getting one doesn't necessarily mean you're getting the other

one. And I think of you in 2011 2011 when your debut album came out smash hit right doing really really well yeah yeah in interviews i've heard you refer back to that period saying that you weren't happy successful on one hand but at the same time not happy so how do you see those two things yeah it's something i speak about a lot with my friends in the studio and with other artists and um I'm aware that I'm saying this from a place of um coming from privilege and being comfortable and having had um relative commercial success through you know being signed to Dirty Hit and the music I've put out over the years but but my experience is, as cheesy as it sounds, I think success is happiness. And true happiness in the soul, you know what I mean?

A feeling of contentment in one's heart. And if, you know, I have friends who I won't name, people who've been in very successful bands, who've touring the world, sending out shows, and, you know know have taken their own life when they get home and i can only speak for myself it's a conversation i have a lot with young artists i'm lucky enough to work with and learn from but really the the juice is to set is to try and care for one's own spirit with whatever program or methodology one uses and get it into a place

where like the spirit can be in the same place whether the record sells a million copies or sells one copy or whether you have a big record deal or a small record deal or no record deal or one record deal and um you know my my experience is that is that i'm i'm most happy and content when i'm around other human beings talking about stuff that matters to me or share or sharing um common solutions and not when i'm in front of loads of people playing shows and and having praise thrown my way that stuff's nice sometimes but i can't tell you the amount of times i've come off stage at a festival and you know i've been crying in my porter cabin that feeling of a hole a hole in my heart you know and that's probably just my own stuff you know that i continue to work on um but i agree that you know i mean really what's the you know i'm not a millionaire

but what's the difference if some you know a big massive rock star's got 100 million in the bank or a billion what's the difference your own plane more space to walk around in a big in a big lonely house uh not being able to go anywhere without being photographed having what you say taken out of context um not knowing really what what a lover or a friend or boyfriend or a girlfriend however anyone identifies might might want from you in a romantic sense you know it's like i don't know i'm in a sick kind of way and maybe i'm in denial about this i'm kind of pleased that i never got i never really got like street street famous yeah what was it like in 2011 so first album comes out you're doing really well um as you say you're reflecting back now what 10 years on yeah it's just about 10 years yeah incredible 10 years on thanks obviously it's a

very formative period in anyone's life you know i think you were how old were you when the first album 21 20 21 yeah i mean 21 to early 30s it's a very significant period in anyone's life and it's it's interesting to hear you speak now that you know those things whether you're getting adulation whether the record sells a million or it sells one copy shouldn't really matter did it matter back then? Yeah. Yeah, it did. It did. And it was never enough because I remember being a 16, 17 year old kid going to see like Fionn Regan play in like 150 cap folk theatre in Yorkshire and thinking like, you know, that feeling when you're like young and you see a band on stage and like a small club and you're like, they've got it. i mean if i ever get there i'll be i remember

being with my first ever girlfriend on a bus going through manchester and seeing like a a tiny poster of an artist called peter broderick who signed to bella union at the time and it's a label and an artist that i love and thinking it's kind of it's i am self-centered in a way you know thinking oh my god if i ever saw myself on a poster, I'd be so happy. And then sure enough, I get there, I'm playing those venues in bigger within six months. And I'm like irritable, restless, discontent in my own skin and constantly living in the delusion that she'll fix me or he'll fix me or that will fix me or I'll sip that and that'll fix me or more praise will fix me or the next royalty check will fix me you know and it was it was um it was never my experience if that makes sense but it did matter back then I think I'd be lying if I said it didn't and I have to remember

that now when I'm talking to young artists if they're like posting about themselves on social media or asking me for favors or this or that I'm like I have to remember that I was also that guy you know and it's important to be hungry and you know kind of be like hey will you manage me or send your demos to a label or you know and it's important to be hungry and you know kind of be like hey will you manage me or send your demos to a label or you know it's tricky isn't it because you know what do they say youth is wasted on the young like there's so much that we know more if we understand more about life as we get older and in some ways we kind of wish we knew it back then but in some ways i think it's just part of the journey you kind of got to go through it to understand it. You said something, Ben, which really caught my ear a minute ago,

which you said, it's probably just my own stuff that I'm dealing with. Well, I don't think it is. I think it's universal. I think pretty much all of us have a hole in our hearts and we seek to fill that hole with whatever we can. And the question is, are we choosing things to fill it that are going to start really, you know, filling it for good? Or are we filling it with like quicksand that we just get a temporary kind of, oh yeah, that feels better. But then it just seeps right through and that hole then

becomes even bigger, I think, than it was before. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I think the problem is, for me at least, I can only speak for myself, I got into the habit of filling that hole in my heart with stuff that I was allergic to and didn't last. And I'm still in the business of trying to fill that hole in my heart but i fill it with um with not stuff that i try and i'm not perfect you know i'm only human but i try and fill it with stuff that isn't uh gonna kill me or or harm i'll harm those around me directly or indirectly

if that makes sense yes i mean i think what we are talking about at the moment is universal whether it's you when you're 21 wanting to sell more records and play bigger gigs or whether it's someone starting out or in their job who wants a promotion or who wants to earn a bit more so they can get a bigger car or a nicer house or a flashier holiday. It's actually the same underlying drive. We think that's going to make us happy, but it doesn't. I want to be really clear that I get it. If you've got nothing, really clear that, I get it, if you've got nothing, more money is going to give you food and shelter. I get that. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just simply saying that once we have those basic needs met, the research is pretty clear on this, that more money is not really leading to happiness. And I think what we can say is that money can often eliminate some of the causes of unhappiness, but I'm not sure money in and of itself gives us happiness.

I think it's a really common misconception that wanting to be secure or have more or be warm or eat or wanting to have sex or be in love or grow, have more comfort, security, wealth even. I think it's a misconception that that stuff is a sin. You know, I think they're very human, natural desires that everyone has, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them at all. Again, I can only speak for myself, that the point, the measure of when those desires, how I would put it, get defective or harmful is when they separate from their intended purpose. And I start putting them right in the middle of my life. I put myself right in the middle of my life and they become my entire goal of like, i want to get more money or i want to get

more famous i want to get more sex i want to get more this or that or whatever you know um and i the work that i try and do myself is just to stay right sized without being cruel to myself there's nothing wrong with wanting you know i want i want to get a new sofa cool like i want to get girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever like cool i don't think those things are sinful or evil at all. But I think some people, for whatever reason, and I consider myself one of these people, kind of, those, what I would say, kind of God-given instincts, for whatever reason, run rampage.

And chaos can my in my experience i was reading the press release for your upcoming album which you know as we record this conversation i think is out in about what day are we on friday today one week yeah one week in one week to go right so we'll definitely get to that because i've heard two of the tracks so far i can't wait for the album to come out next friday thank you and they are sublime beautiful they're just so so good but it's the pressure release that this is the first album that you've written being sober. And I want to explore that a bit because, well, let's start at the beginning.

You know, what were the problems you were facing? You know, maybe tell us a little bit about that and sort of where it started and where we are now. I think the main problem i was facing was um from very i'd say from about 23 24 i really wanted to stop um taking drugs and drinking and i couldn't i made every kind of promise in the world i mean i went to every therapist read every self-help book tried new partners moved to the other side of the world threw drugs or alcohol into the river onto the roofs of hotels to try and get rid of it and would quickly be out there kind of

picking it up again or calling whoever to to get my fix and um my problem was really that I was irritable restless discontent in my own skin unless I had uh those kind of things in me to to fill that hole in my heart um and it was you know I went through my life like a tornado I didn't I wasn't present for the people I love like I I was um emotionally absent from from my own life and and the lives of most people I met um and I really you know whenever I'd be traveling to new places around the world or on tour or whatever I just wouldn't I wouldn't be able to function without certain things um so I'd say the problem was was the kind of the hole in my soul you know and I just kept trying to fill that and I you know I knew that what I was feeling it was I was allergic to but just knowing it wasn't enough to get me to to stop until I reached a place of what I would describe as um a bottom in which I I had nowhere else to kind of

turn emotionally other than to ask for help um from a kind international fellowship of human beings who shared with me a common solution that I try and practice one day at a time to um to keep me away from putting that stuff in my system that I'm allergic to and through doing that I haven't found it necessary to take a drink or a drug for uh well over three years first of all thank you for sharing that congratulations um on over three years that's I mean I mean, that's wonderful. You said allergic. When you say allergic, do you mean medically allergic or do you mean sort of metaphorically allergic? I mean, allergic in the sense that once I start,

I can't stop. Once I put one in me I trigger a craving and I cannot stop until I'm so messed up that I you know pass out or whatever and then I wake up and I can't stay stopped I forget the kind of suffering and humiliation of 12 hours or a week or a month or a year ago and i start again and so i would describe it as that the problem kind of the problem centers in my mind and that's where i try and apply you know a spiritual solution to to build a defense against that first one that will trigger the the allergy you know and trigger that craving and and you know i'm i'm not an angel there are many other things that are not uh drugs or alcohol that people get you know sugar you know i mean we

talk about before we turn the camera on man like i'm if i get my hands on a box of wagon wheels it's they're not they're not gonna they're not sticking around very long you know what i'm saying and that stuff can be deadly for sure you know and that stuff I have to continue to work on and I don't believe that drugs or alcohol are inherently evil and that no one should take them and I know many people who can have great times using those things and can go out on a weekend and enjoy and and then go to work on Monday and put it down and not be obsessing about it but um i'm not that guy you know nor do i think that my that i have a monopoly on

recovery or the solution to to alcoholism or drug addiction would you mind sharing what sort of drugs you were taking um alcohol skunk and prescription pills mixed together um and other things as well that weren't my favorites yeah you spoke about being 23 and i'm interested as to when do you think this started um i think i've always felt that kind of hole in the soul sense of separation um apart from the world otherness from long before i discovered alcohol and drugs i think i've always been you know i remember being like nine years old and playing like halo on the xbox just like not wanting to stop you know i'd walk home from school just like walk home from school and just play games or watch horror films or um you know compulsive eating that kind of stuff so i think i've always had that that ism that kind of

i self me of of of alcoholism from from as as far back as i can remember really um codependent kind of romantically obsessed um i don't know i'm not a i i really care about the solution and trying to live in that i don't know whether i was born with it or something happened and nor do i want to sit in like a uh like a pity party like kind of pour me pour me pour me another drink mentality because that that's not good for me you know and um my instinct that i was from before i can consciously remember things i feel like i had that had that thing that feeling of just like ah and a quick way to numb out that feeling is to to do those things i was describing you know it's interesting uh are you familiar with gabel

matte's work of course yeah he's a he's a legend yeah i mean i love gabon i've spoken to him a couple of times before on the show we're going to speak again in a couple of months i think and um you know i really i like his broader definition of addiction um because i think society has had this view of addiction oh you know drug addicts on the street corner you know uh or the the sort of overt alcoholic who can't function in life and you know has had to sell their house you know these kind of were the extreme sure uh examples and i think we like to make ourselves feel a bit better that oh you know i'm not one of them yeah that's exactly right i'm not an addict and you know i know in an interview when i was researching this morning you've you said we live in an addicted

world and um you know gabble's definition i think has sort of three key components it's a you know it's when we crave something and get a reward from it. It's something that we can't give up. And the third component is where we can't give up in spite of negative consequences. And once you start broadening out of that, I think it's very hard for many of us to make a case that we all don't have some form of addiction, whether it is shopping, sex, Instagram, binge watching, whatever it might be, coffee. We've talked about that before, as well as heroin and cocaine. I think, and what I love about Gabble's approach is, and it's something I completely subscribe to, it's a much more compassionate approach, not why the addiction, why the pain.

And yeah, as I think about that and think of you, and again, I want to be totally respectful of where you are in your journey and what you want to talk about. You know, it doesn't sound as though you were using drugs at the age of nine, right? You were doing that later on alcohol, but you, I'm getting the impression that you were sort of felt you were drawn to just chuck yourself into things like you, would you sort of numb out to computer games? Is

that how you describe it? Totally, you know, to computer games or, you know, like food, um you know like food obsessing over girls porn video games um anything you know anything to change to change the way i felt um and there were consequences at at that young age a little bit but it was more when i kind of got into the realms of being an adult and was just if I'd have met you like four or five years ago and I'd have come to do this I'd have been you know using in your garden and like I'd have been looking in your eyes thinking like when's he gonna stop talking so I can go and do my own thing whether it was you or anyone else whether it was you or a label head or an artist or anyone you know just very self-centered you know and that's and that's not because i don't feel like i became you know an alcoholic because i i drank or used um obsessively or excessively i think i drank and

used obsessively and excessively because i am an alcoholic you know and that stuff was just was the solution to my problem which is life itself you know when i get into recovery i get surrendered by the bottle or by the bag and then i think that i think that that's my problem when i put it down and i feel worse than i did when i was high and then i become surrendered by life itself and i try and pick up some some suggestions that other human beings have put in my path to try and get out of the way of myself and live a life beyond my wildest dreams, you know, one day at a time if I put in the work. How did fame at 21 affect this, would you say?

Because, like, I don't know, there's a certain spotlight then that gets put on people, the certain magnification this during the last 12, 15 months as well, where people have had to live in very different ways to what they're used to, that whether it's the restrictions or it's fame or public exposure, I feel it's stress testing the system. It's putting more pressure in and it exposes pre-existing faults. I don't mean fault in a blame way, but pre-existing cracks that were already there. I feel it just turns the gauge up so that you can start to expose those.

I don't know how that sits with you in terms of what happens. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, something that is really important, especially at this time of year.

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are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. In answer to your question about how did I find fame and success at 21 or those kind of arenas and what it brought up for me, I think it made me seem to the outside world very functional and like bar the people who were very close to me you know romantic partners or tour managers or promoters or the record label were well aware that there was there were problems and what on the receiving end of a lot of my kind of um nastiness and um but you know i was sat after a part of my first time we taught it for three

years and then finished touring that in like end of 2013 maybe and for three or four years i was sat in you know an inexpensive flight in the middle of london by myself with a hole in my heart filling it with the stuff i'm allergic to you know and i think it was hard it was maybe hard for um my own ego and judgment that judgment that you were talking about like well I'm not on a park bench homeless drinking a bottle of cheap do you know I mean I'm not doing this drug or that drug or whatever it's the one thing that separated me from from starting to to live in the solution was my own judgments you know i'm not i'm not going to go and sit in a church basement with a load of you know with you know very judgmental actually it's exactly where i it's exactly where i needed to be um but in answer to your question i think i

i found it weird i think in terms of like the little bits of fame that people coming up to and like oh hey like I love your stuff I hope and I think I was always in that realm gracious with people and like thank you I really appreciate that um I really love music and it was wild to be like knocking around with you know artists that I've loved my whole life and becoming friends with people and all that kind of stuff. I think when someone's young and they get they get suddenly have a you know relatively big publishing deal or record deal or success then they're not no one's trained them to like be like responsible with like money or time or these kind of things it's like that's what happens with art you kind of get this block of an advance or whatever and it's like oh that's so i think that's kind of difficult i think that's

where good managers and compassionate honest um fiscally assiduous managers are important to to help guide artists in in those realms but the main the main thing i think was just that i was like nothing's wrong with me i'm killing it i'm amazing everyone loves my music blah blah blah blah blah very outwardly functional like i said sat sat in a flat in the middle of london with everyone's you know i remember being sat in a flat my friend cindy she works for sony in new york she texts me she's like your song shine is the most repeat played song in the whole world on spotify this year and it just the whole world i just went it's like what in one ear and out the other i was like thanks man back to doing whatever i was doing you know not just not present and escaping and totally powerless it's interesting that um

you know the theme of judgment you know judging other people for the way they're sort of dealing with their addictions but that ain't me i'm in my you know i've got a big single i'm getting my nice pads and you know we we can tell ourselves so many stories about our lives and i can guarantee ben that there will be people there will be hundreds of people listening right now who are in the same position. And what you just shared probably was like straight to their heart. And they thought, you know what, that's kind of me. Maybe not with the big album and the big song and that, do you know what I mean? But their version of that in their life.

Sure. Man, it's there it's it's everywhere everywhere you look that stuff is there yeah and i hope i hope something i we talk about or that i say might be useful and goes without saying like if anyone is you know people can find me easy like if they want everyone to chat but if anyone feels like they're at a bottom and wants to like speak about um would be interested in hearing some of my story or the solution just hit me up i've done that plenty of times speaking to other people it might help me more than it helps them you know that's why i've been trained in recovery i i keep what

i have by giving it away i mean it's incredible being a service to others is is like the antidote to deep long introspection and getting to self-focus you know it's it's it's the simplest and i don't think it's the quickest antidote to getting out of that you know do something for somebody else yeah just finishing on judgments i think we're an incredibly judgmental society i have been very judgmental in the past. It is something I actively try and catch myself on. I do find I'm becoming less and less judgmental by the day. It feels really good. And I realize that at the root of judgment is a feeling of inadequacy,

either when we're judging other people or when we harshly judge ourselves it's a feeling that we're not good enough we're inadequate and i remember at school i grew up in manchester well i grew up in um in south manchester in cheshire went to school in manchester secondary school big you know academically you know very um driven school um big football culture in Manchester, you know, so, you know, who you support is a big part of your identity at school. And, you know, everyone loved football or seemingly was into football. I don't think it's quite the same thing. What was interesting is how judgmental we were. And I probably was if young footballers who were caught doing all kinds of stuff in nightclubs when they were 18 19 right and you know slapped on the front page of the sun or

the mirror you know basically just destroying these people and then if you think about it you think i don't know if you've left school you're 16, you're with a club, you're training all the time, you suddenly are getting 30 grand a week. I kind of challenge many people not to make a few mistakes. What is your relationship being to judgment, would you say? I agree with what you're saying. say um i agree with what you're saying it comes from a place for me i can only speak for myself but from a place of my own low self-esteem or feelings of inadequacy the one thing that separated me from getting clean and sober for a long time was my own judgments exactly like you're talking about 15 minutes ago i'm not that bad i'm not that bad those young footballers that you're talking

about you know they've got cameras on them all the time how many of how many of us human beings can truly say that we've lived that we've been spiritually fit 24 hours a day i don't know anyone i don't even know you know spiritual leaders or religion you know your history you want that story about the monk came out and he's like flying around in private jets like smoking blunts and jets so it's like dancers you know what i mean it's like wild and like you know a phrase I really love is that but for the grace of god there go I and I use the word god with a small g but like that's me you know the seconds and inches you know like of causing chaos and being in the wrong place at the wrong time and

I think a lot of young kids man if they had cameras on them all the time filming and then they had that one inappropriate joke they made or that one stupid decision they'd made or that one awful thing that they'd done filmed written in bold capitals and slapped on the on the front of the sun then everyone would be under the bus you know and that's not to excuse anyone's harmful behaviors um my own included but i think like yeah love is a is a way forward and and and with time forgiveness and that forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting but like i know in my life when like and i won't mention names but they're people like family stuff where I feel

like people have done like serious harms to me in the same way that I have to other people and like until I'm willing to like see it try and see it from a higher perspective I'm just in a cage you know and that's a big thing and you know for people in recovery like I cannot afford resentments or judgment because if I if I'm in a space of resentfulness or judgmental judgmentalism the sunlight of the spirit is blocked and i'm wrapped up in myself again right back in the middle of my life and i've got 15 years of field research that tells me that my self-reliance and my me running purely on my own power leads me to the to the doors of a treatment center feeling suicidal having having burned out my life you know my self-reliance has failed me in that respect and i need to quit playing god you know i mean

let's talk about recovery because you know as you say you're over three years clean and you know there's a real there's a real authenticity speaking to you um which i love and i've got to be honest i find quite rare these days. Um, you know, you've come to my house, we've had a drink of water, sparkling water, just to be clear. And, um, you know, a hot drink as well. And, um, we've been chatting and I have been struck by your humility, your gratitude, your authenticity. I really have. It's been a really lovely energy to be around. Thanks.

Same to you. And is that something that was there pre-recovery or do you feel that is something that recovery has given you i don't believe that anyone is born like sinful or evil or defective or um nasty um i think there were probably you know I believe that deep down in every you know man woman and child or however anyone chooses to identify that there's the fundamental idea of good or God or or spirit um so I think okay you know it's funny that I've met a few artists like recently I'm writing with and stuff that I'll meet you back in the day, like 10 years ago at the festival, you were, you were, you sat with me, you know, when, when people occasionally, I'm not saying that everyone's amazing, but say don't, but like, I'm kind of shocked when I hear that sometimes they're like, Oh man, you were so nice

to me 10 years ago. I'm like, I'll make you 10 years ago. Oh my God. Um, so I think there were, there were parts of it yeah but for the it was it's definitely a practice that recovery has given me um and um recovery has given me the ability um to be honest and and you know and have integrity um and i don't get all those things perfect all the time but it's i didn't get those things by stopping drinking and using you know like when i stopped drinking using i'm in trouble and and i got those things by picking up the solution and you know the process of clearing the channel between me and whatever that thing is it's been there the whole time that I was standing in the way of

I don't know if that answers your question quite no no it's yeah it doesn't it's you know it's fascinating because all that goodness is there within all of us and somewhere along the line we go off track and actually a lot of what we're trying to do when we're trying to find ourselves is just kind of return back to who we already were. Patient-wise, I've been involved with lots of people who've been struggling with various addictions. I know some people really well, some good friends who have had very public battles with addiction um in a rich role a good friend of mine fellow podcast host we've he's been on the show three times and we've spoken about his journey with alcohol yeah he's a legend he is yeah he's amazing and um what's

really interesting is that i find like even someone someone like Russell Brands, who I've not on the show yet, I hope to in the next few months. But I'm struck as someone who has never been down that path. Now, I'm very clear, it doesn't mean I've not had addictions. I absolutely have. But as someone who's, I guess, not hit that rock bottom in a way in terms of, let's say, alcohol or drugs, and has then had to go into a formal process of recovery, what I'm struck by is when I talk to people like you or Rich Roll or I see Russell Brand speak, what I often see are people who really get life, who by going so extreme in one direction, they seem to have more of a realization of what truly makes us tick and makes us happy than people who've never been to that extreme, who just sort of slightly off the edges.

What goes on there that gives people these really great principles to apply in their daily life because i actually think we could all probably learn from them yeah i am you know i'm no expert on on recovery all those all those those beautiful 12 suggestions but i think this is the thread that that connects those free you know me and and those those guys who talk about who i love and and many people in in recovery of course love is like uh we've all i can only speak for myself i imagine that they might say a similar thing is we've all been at the point of surrender and accepting that by myself i am uh powerless over this thing that i'm allergic to and that my self-reliance

and self-will um has failed me and i need, I desperately need new, new management. And I make that, and by new management, I don't mean, just to be clear. Sorry, Mark. You're happy with your manager. Yeah, I love Mark. Mark, shout out to Mark. You know, and, and, but just knowing that I need it isn't enough. um you know and and but just knowing that i need it isn't enough i then have i make that contract saying you know making a decision to turn to turn my you know my thoughts and my actions and my will

of my life over to that place and then and then but just doing that isn't enough you know i could say like if i said oh you know god i'd really love a sip of coffee right now then i don't you know it'd be cool if it did but the coffee my cup here isn't gonna like magically come up and come into my hand you know i need to do the work to like to clear that channel and gain access to that thing that i believe has always been there and some of that work is you know you used the word you, you've used a few like kind of spiritual terms and getting honest with myself and another person. Making amends to people I've harmed, not saying sorry. I've said sorry a million times.

I'm sorry, man. You know, amends. And then what's the difference? to me it's only my my experience but the difference is asking for someone's forgiveness and being accountable and naming what I've done you know the difference would be like hey x and y um I'm sorry for that time I was an x and y to you you know or hey man can i have a minute of your time you know i i'm i deeply regret how i treated you back then i know it was mean and nasty controlling judgmental you know by the grace of god it's not a behavior i repeat and i am

you know i'm trying to live in a way which is less destructive and i hope you can forgive me and i i deeply apologize when you do that when you take the time to make amends like that how much of the teaching or how much of what you're trying to apply is I need to do that and not be attached to the outcome of that and so the reason this is so important to me is I feel a lot of the time we give our power away to other people and we become prisoners because our well-being is dependent on what other people do around us, how they interact with us, what they say when we say something to them. people do around us, how they interact with us, what they say when we say something to them.

And I think that's very human and I understand that. But I know in my own life, this peace and contentment that I feel these days comes from a real detachment from the outcome of what I do. Like if I was to say that to someone and they're not ready to hear it, I've still got to be satisfied and go, you know what? That's cool. Yeah, absolutely. How do you look at that? That situation you're describing does happen regularly with me and some of the guys I'm lucky enough to work with. I've done my part.

I've I've done my part you know I'm not um I'm not God and it would be wrong of me to kind of force those things on someone else and sometimes you know I might reach out and it's very clear that someone doesn't want to hear from me and I you know I need to respect that and not and not ruin an opportunity to maybe be useful um later on but i'd say and people are well within their right you know to not want to speak i don't want to talk that's absolutely fine um but my experience has been that 95 at the time i'm amazed at how um willing people are to you know to hear something like that or even amazed at the like ben like what we were 15 you know like well you know but and i need to be careful as well not to to go in and try and seek praise and adulation for like you know going to sit down with someone and being like i'm enlightened you know i mean i'm not you know

a couple of things there one is that um i've gone through nerves at times with before you coming up right because it's not really nerves but just like an apprehension that sometimes thinking, think of this as a health podcast, right? I want to help inspire people to live better lives. And it started off, I would talk to experts in their field and I branched out loads of times, but I want to branch out more and more because I feel what I want to do is take health outside the health space. Like I think health is life. Health is everything. We take our health with us in every interaction that we do. And I feel that we learn through storytelling, we learn through other people. Every single human being has got a story that we can learn something from. Not only am I

incredibly inspired by you as an artist and a songwriter, but there's always something about your warmth when you, I think, first messaged me on Instagram a couple of years ago that I've really, I liked that energy. And what you said there about trying to make amends rather than saying, sorry, I think, I'm always trying to think how's this relevant to someone who doesn't feel they're an addict? But I really see a parallel in relationships where, let's say, I don't know, two partners, husband wife, whatever, where there's a bit of friction and you're trying to make an apology. But if the apology doesn't go down the way you want it to, oh, it's not worth trying. You know, it's

so common, these little traps that people fall into. I have fallen into them in the past, but when you can kind of break free from that, and I think that it's those words, honesty and integrity, because when you're acting with honesty and integrity, it actually doesn't matter what the outcome of that is as long as you, you know, what does honesty and integrity mean to you feeling like i've done my part without trying to manipulate or control the outcome and that has come from a place of um of true surrender and like accountability.

That's the best I can do. I'm not, in songs I'm all right with language, but when I'm speaking, I find it hard to like, I don't know what the definition is of those words. I know how they feel in my system. You know, it'd be like, I don't know. What's a good example? And man, I'm no angel you know progress not perfection I I'm not a saint I'm trying to grow along you know lines that that that might be useful to me and to

other people but I'll give you an example and I've shared about this in in in meetings being back and this is something i've done in sobriety you know i'm not just getting sober doesn't mean that i'm switched on you know i need to to follow those things and you know pick pick up those tools one at a time being backstage at a festival and going up to an artist that i'm not don't i don't hate them but i'm not obsessed with them and be like man like i love the music do you know what i mean like that kind of that subtle dishonesty or being a soiree and you know what london you know you're at the so our house or ned and he's like yo rank rongan it's like yo like

you know and there's like famous people there and presenters and you know someone like they've got money or whatever you know i mean that kind of stuff and being like hey you know like that that when i when i get home after those things i'm i feel icky because i've been dishonest if i've gone up to someone and being like man like i'm i love your new record you know and it's like it's not something i do as much anymore but i i'm capable of that stuff without checking myself you know what i mean like kind of I'm capable of that stuff without checking myself. You know what I mean? Like kind of,

I don't know what I'm saying. Mate, I think you just gave the best example ever for me. It's, it's something I think I've done in the past. And the thing is, you can't hide from yourself. Yeah, yeah, literally. That's the truth about it. You can't hide.

You can do that stuff and it can, it can seem seem okay but you know when you're sitting alone you know that you've done something that's not in alignment with who you are yeah totally and i think when i think of honesty i think of you know this kind of radical honesty with yourself it's that honesty with yourself you're like you know what if you've got weaknesses trying to work on, don't try and kid yourself as much as possible that you don't have them. Accept them, acknowledge who you are, but then also try and show up in the world as a respectful, humble human being. But by showing up in the world a certain way doesn't mean you've sorted all that stuff out. And this is something I've been wrestling with over the last few months as I, and I was telling you before, I've just submitted the first draft of my next book uh i mean this is the most

raw personal and i think it's the most honest and i think it's the best book i've ever written like i cannot wait for this to come out because I think it, it really is my passion project. What I've been wanting to say for years, but maybe didn't feel comfortable enough in my own skin. Still try and be the doctor, you know, what, what should a doctor sound like? Do you know what I mean? And it's a term that I've been thinking about and been writing about and I'm bringing it up because I kind of feel something you said that even when you're mentoring young artists or you know what the example you shared about this kind of fake praise to someone hey man I really love your work

even though you don't you don't need to say that you could just say hey how's it going do you know what I mean exactly and performative authenticity. I've been thinking about the word authenticity and I've been thinking about this whole concept of particularly around social media. I think there is a performative authenticity sometimes on social media. It's so hip and cool to be authentic that I think we have totally misrepresented the word. And I think people are doing this without even realizing it. They're sort of minimizing, sometimes, privilege, sort of over-exaggerating certain insecurities and weaknesses. a few ideas and we were basically just saying that or the conclusion was I actually think it's very very hard to be authentic on social media I think the platform it celebrates inauthenticity but I really feel that the danger is that you start to change that photo a little bit because

you look a little bit better right like this is quite an extreme example because we all do that to a certain degree. But once you start doing that or you start to tell a vulnerable story that's not really the truth, but you know it's what the platform wants and you see this everywhere, then the problem is that you get love and validation for a person who you're not. And therefore, you're incentivized to keep portraying that person online. But meanwhile, inside, there's a little shell of a person. And I was chatting to someone yesterday about this, who literally, high profile influencer, opening up, won't say who it is. Just saying, yeah, my life online, I know it looks like I'm having a whale of a time, but my life is broken. And do you think how many of us are looking at

people like that? And I don't know, I'm still, I'm fully articulating my thoughts on that, but I don't know what you would say to any of that. I only speak for myself but i think living and living and dare i say even monetizing um a dishonest representation of oneself which i have done before um will eat will slowly eat your soul but like you say you got nowhere even when you get home even if you get home you're in a million pound bed and a hundred million dollar mansion you're lying in bed and there's nowhere to hide but inside there's that voice inside going you really put you really pulling that you know you can't escape it you can't escape that's that that spirit you know it's just like I'm here and I love you but like what are you doing Ben do you

know I mean like I do that yeah it's like editing pictures and stuff i mean everyone does it but it's you know there's a lot of sick people me me included you know like just kind of yeah yeah i feel i hope it that kind of stuff i feel like it's starting to get into its death role and i'm lucky enough to work with like young, you know, 19, 20 year old artists who are right at the front of that social media. Very credible, extremely gifted, kind, young humans. And they're so inspiring to be around, man. They're like so on top of this stuff and aware of it. That's awesome. They're almost like post cancel culture.

Do you know what I mean? They're like post self obsession or something, you know, like they're so, I'm like, this was not the way 10 years ago. They're so fresh and hardworking and kind and compassionate and gifted. And yes, you know, in the artistic communities were generally all kind of like, you know, left leaning, but they, they, they, they don't get into the hatred and the judgment that so many people can get into which for me when i'm in a place of judgment when i'm on that throne it's like it's a cold it's a cold seat for someone like yourself whose debut album blew up okay

um you're five days off you're seven days off the release of your fifth album i think it's fourth fourth and like a few eps okay it's a fourth album yeah well let's let's compare and contrast ben 10 years ago one week before last smoke, before the snowstorm comes out. Ben, today, one week before to carry a whale comes out. What is the difference? You fundamentally seem to have changed so many aspects of who you are and how you show up in the world. So how does that relate to such a big moment? Or a significant moment, I should say. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from

the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there.

This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits and improve our relationships. There are of course many different ways to journal and as with most things it's important that you find the method that works best things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I

outline in the three question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel.

Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app i think the the first thing that comes to mind is that i'm more awake this time 10 years ago I was probably backstage at a festival drunk or on drugs and

not awake not really bothered um a big a big difference that I feel is like I'm more in love with songs that I've always loved songs and been in love with it and kind of been addicted to music in a way but I feel way more in love with like songwriting and more here for I remember being like like one or two days clean sober being like oh my god i'll never be able to write a song again but it's my experience has been that i've i feel like i've become a better songwriter a better listener more empathetic around artists more grateful to learn from them even if they're at the start of their journey um i'm just i'd say i'm just more awake but it's

funny with i think artists will relate to this but it's funny with releasing album like to everyone else it's new but to me it's like a year old you know you must have that with books so it's like it's like i'm already writing for the next one do you know i mean i've already got a dropbox folder of songs and bouncing them with my manager and i'm grateful to put it out to the world and i know it's part of the the kind of game of the music industry um and i'm really proud of it and the difference is i was more awake for the creation of this album as well like me and my producer get cape wear cape fly like we left no stone unturned you know like i know other other humans who worked on the album as well who are too many to mention but they're incredible and i'm eternally grateful to them um we were really focused we're like this is

i want to be a 10 track album it's gonna be called to carry away it's gonna be about living with this thing that i live with and that it's heavy but it's also you know it's kind of like a beautiful thing to be aware of and we got rid of a lot of like big ish whatever that means you know songs that like publishers loved and stuff from the albums it like it wasn't true to the message of this it didn't make sense in the thematically in the context of the album um man you know you know what capo is on the guitar where you let me so like we me and sam get capable to produce the album we spent literally days recording the same song and there's that no the capo is wrong we did it all recorded the drums guitar vocal like move the capo down to four move up to set you know we were like to suit your voice or to suit the tonality of the song mainly to suit

my voice which really is like the feel of the song and that 10 years ago was something that my reaction to Sam and myself suggesting we got this wrong let's go again would have been no no no don't bother wait i'd rather go outside and chill do my own thing you know that extra that that awakeness and kind of respect and love for the for the music and to get it just right because it's i told myself this myth as a young artist which is like songs just land in your lap it's all god man it's all chill blah blah blah blah i'm just gonna be sat on my bed writing a song and once or twice i've had songs land like that but the most part is like i've realized that recent like starting to love the craft part of it as well sitting with a verse and going let's change the chord at the end of the verse or that one is it but or is it cause

you know i mean like the little twists and turns then when you listen to the whole piece, it's like, oh, it makes a difference. You know what I mean? I'm, I'm, you know, the difference. I'm, I'm, I've had more success or less success in someone or whatever that man, honestly, I learned more from like 16 year old kids who've just been signed, who I'm lucky enough to write with and learn from than I do with megastars. Because they don't know and they just, it's all feel. It's all that thing we were talking about in the context of recovery, like that thing deep down in every man, woman, and child, or however anyone identifies that fundamental idea, that juice, you know, and for some people that comes out of songs or creating an equation or being an amazing single parent or being a teacher or a doctor, a scientist, whatever, cleaner, you know,

the thing where it's like, oh my God, I loved it. I love like just sitting with you and having a coffee before we get into whatever we're going to do. Yeah. There's a certain freshness, isn't there? When people haven't been, I guess, jaded by the industry and it's not got stuck into a rut of doing things, which, you know, we can do. It must be lovely to, well, I imagine working with 16 year olds is helpful for you as a songwriter. Yeah. but I imagine it's pretty helpful as a human being as well yeah it's cool it's like fresh and like often like that I've you know their parents like come with them to studio which is awesome and it's like nice to meet people and I have much to learn man you know I'm not um I'm not god can you over tinker like so you've got a song and you it's

pretty good and you're moving around with the with the capo to get the right tone in your voice, to get the message right. You know, do you, I guess I'm asking because I struggle when I'm writing to know at what point is it, okay, we're done. And I'll tell you, for me, deadlines have been critical because I know, okay okay the book's going to print now this is the best i can do at this time and what i say to um you know i speak to a lot of younger authors who sort of hit me up for advice and i um actually why don't we think of this I don't know if I told the story on the show before, but I remember when Bono was interviewed after, it's the pop, was it pop or pop mart? I can't remember what it was called now. The pop mart album sort of, you know, in the early nineties. And it was maybe a year after it came out and he was interviewed about

it. And he said, listen, the album wasn't ready, but the tour had already sold out. We had the world tour, but so the album just had to go out. And had we released it a year later, it would have been a completely different album because all of those songs evolved on tour and they actually properly formed on tour, but we just had to put it out. And I always thought, but I used to be, well, I still am, but I used to, you know, obsess about music. I'd get albums, I'd be listening all the time. I'd be reading CD bookverts, Q magazine, like the works. And I found that really helpful because I thought, okay, look, this is art. Just because you've sent the book off to print doesn't mean your thought process has stopped. It still continues. The minute after you send that email and it goes on Twitter, it's still working.

But if I didn't have a deadline, I think I could work on a book for five years. And so for me, I found these deadlines deadlines really really helpful just to get that balance where it's it's good enough because you can you know with you i mean how do you feel about this you can always change a song right you can always add something or take something out or play yeah i think yes in answer to your question yes one can over tinker and it often happens that you know the the day one you know i work with a wonderful i want no names but amazing very seasoned producer a lot of the time and his day one if we work with an artist what he sends at the end of the day at 8 p.m it's always amazing and then if he plays with it more sometimes

it's not as good you know because it's just when it's just feel and it's just like yeah i'm just trusting my instincts here and bouncing on this sonic or bouncing on on the track it's um it's beautiful so yeah i think you can over tinker i mean you can always i feel like the artist thing is that you're never really a hundred percent at I'm never really 100% content with something. But my general rule is like, especially being awake, do I really feel like this is as good as it could be? Do I feel like I've sung it in a surrendered fashion? Do I think the sounds are as good? Do I think the tempo is as good do i think the tempo is right i think

the key is right do i one thing i like i say a lot this year is that if someone sings in front of me i'm like i believe you you know i mean i believe that that's amazing i totally believe you you can see if you turn the tv and you see someone singing a song or doing a dance whatever you can tell if you even if someone's not got amazing voice if they sing it like their life depends on it and they believe in it it's like i'm in plenty of people don't have a mate i don't think i don't i've got plenty of people i work with i don't think i have amazing voices but they know how to use it and and have it come from here as opposed to here yeah authenticity right it's what we connect to it's um it's one of the reasons i feel that long-form podcasting is doing so well all over the globe um in a culture where people say no one's got time, the evidence suggests otherwise, you know,

you've got Joe Rogan putting three hour plus podcasts out, biggest show in the world. You know, Tim Ferriss, Rich Roll, you know, this podcast is doing very well. Yeah. Congrats. With long form. Yeah. And I think something you touched on there is that over a two hour conversation, you can't fake it, right? You can fake it. And on a three minute live telly interview, you can fake it. You can say the right things. You can give the sound bites. 90 minutes, two hours, people will see

right through it. So I feel like I've said before, I think long form conversation is one way to change the world. I really do. I think it's the modern day campfire i love that i've not heard that before that's great yeah modern day campfire like where we can really just have these human conversations but i think what you're speaking to there is authenticity not it's not necessarily the person with the best voice it's the one who can connect the most and that speaks to what you were talking about i think in recovery you talk about other people being in service I'm one quote I've written down to yourself was um you've said before that a dangerous place for you to be is when you think you can do everything by yourself yeah yeah I do I think my you know my mind is a dangerous neighbor to hang out in by myself.

You know what I mean? It just like I can get so caught in self and wrapped up in self. And my, again, my experience shows me that 15 years of running on self and thinking, Ben, I got this and putting myself right in the middle of my life, being all wrapped up in myself ended up in um just continual heartbreak for me for me and those people around me you know and that that's not to say i'm i'm always free of that now but it's you know i'm human but it's less it's less by not trying to manipulate and control and and and run and run the show myself you know i mean i'm not i'm no longer playing the director having it casting everyone around and saying go here go here go here go here you know i'm just like just yeah what will what will be will be it might not be it's not going to be on my time, but that's okay, you know.

Given that you've been sober for three years now, and given how important being around with, connecting with other people is, have the last 15 months of these distancing restrictions, of these distancing restrictions how have they been for you and has it made recovery even more challenging that's a great question i think i'm aware that through my own privilege and luck and success in music that i've felt and nipper less than most of the world did. I was able to be in a place of comfort in my home. And for that, I'm grateful and privileged. It wasn't as challenging as I thought it would be. The community moved on to Zoom.

The community of kind human beings who share their common solution with me you know one day at a time and who I help occasionally um all moved on to zoom and I've seen I know people personally people I've been texting when I was on the train today who who hit their rock bottom in the pandemic and got sober on zoom by being broken enough to follow suggestions and also you know it can be nerve-wracking for someone to walk into a you know a church basement or a community hall or whatever the place might be you know on zoom you know everyone's got different opinions on this and i'm i'm no expert on recovery or on music or on health or medicine or anything but um

I'm no expert on recovery or on music or on health or medicine or anything, but, um, I've seen people come in and get sober on zoom, broken enough to like, let go of their own ideas and follow suggestions. And some of those people are my closest friends. I was texting one, a friend of mine in Nashville before I came on here.

And, um, I'm looking forward to when stuff goes back face to face you know but we the the the the recovery um road that i'm on is very democratic and stuff is done by group conscience and vote and and nothing there's no leader or no dues to pay or fees to pay or there's no like god you know i mean like there's no by god i mean that there's no like god you know i mean like there's nothing by god i mean that there's no like figure who's like i am the boss of of this place you know it's all like everyone's got a voice and we we constantly speak about when it's right and appropriate to go back into into in-person gatherings and you know and and it's in some

of the stuff you know a few in-person things have started to open up and and the kindness i see is incredible you know obviously when it's it's a lot of time in london i don't know where the government restrictions are out with stuff but it's like only 15 people can be in a room well what happens if 15 people who have got 20 years clean and sober go to a room to meet to to engage in recovery and a newcomer who's drunk comes outside the meeting are they going to get turned away and that would never happen you know because I've seen old timers be in meetings and a newcomer comes there's not space for the old timer walks out and go you take my seat you're more important here that's incredible do you know

I mean so there's stuff to discuss with like when we're going to go in person or not but you know i'm no expert i've in answer to your question i've actually gone started going to um spending more time in and around i've already spent a lot of time there but i can go every day 24 hours a day i could go if i wanted you know it's incredible and zoom you know yeah we can get stuff done i miss the kind of smell of coffee and you know like the the kind of romance of of meeting spaces but um you know we're we're trying to be um we're trying to follow rules and and not play god anymore and not do exactly what we wanted to do you know um for me at least which is do exactly what i wanted to do if it harmed regardless of if it harmed other people and you know people in recovery work you know working a

working an honest path uh hopefully are out of the business of putting themselves in the middle of their own lives it sounds like a key skill that one learns in recovery is compromise is that fair to say i um i've not heard that word before in that in that context but i think for me at least a key skill is accepting that i'm not always right my idea isn't always the best and um that you know a group of recovering alcoholics and addicts together is a powerful powerful force you know i went to doctors and therapists and scientists and all people i look up to and respect as does everyone in the recovery community you know God-given important gifted selfless people um but no I don't think um I don't know about compromise but I think just knowing that like us together is more important than me getting my own getting my

own way you know so if the group or if a collection of of of humans in recovery think um think we're gonna not go and in person for a while but i want to go in person that i've you know i guess compromise might be the right word okay you know there were 10 of us in this room eight of us said let's chill on zoom for a bit and two of us wanted to go in let's let's hear let's hear the minority voice because it's important and it's right to do so um but this is this is what we're going to do i need to get up i'm not i'm out of the business of putting my hands on the wheel and you know driving my car into the side of the mountain this is what i was getting at before i think these lessons that I hear from people who have been in recovery, there just seems to be these universal lessons that we could all benefit from. You know, when you said there, well, I've learned that I'm not always right.

And sometimes someone else has got a better opinion or whatever than me. I don't know that there's a single human being out there who couldn't do with hearing that and being reminded of that, myself included. Do you know what I mean? I really feel there's something about when the pain's so bad, people learn the real truths of life. And I've heard some people who are in recovery say that it was the best thing that ever happened to them. And they learned so much from it and they wouldn't have it any other way, which is really powerful when you hear that. I agree with that.

Do you agree with that? Yeah. Well, people use like to say a great, people think, if someone doesn't really understand that, might think people are nuts, but you'll hear like, you know, I'm a grateful alcoholic or I'm a grateful addict, those kind of sayings a lot and um you know i needed every um

i needed the harms that i cause and and the harms that i i did to myself and every drink i ever had to get to that point and in my case every drug as well to get to that point of surrender just like my self-reliance is failing me here i will fail to manage my own life i cannot stop when i want to i cannot stay stopped once i'm stopped once i start i have little control over the amount i take and uh i'm failing as i'm failing at playing god and being the director of the show i'm just grateful to be to you know to be where i am and i'm not an expert i don't think it's

for everyone i have no monopoly on recovery and hopefully something i say might be useful but sometimes people are only in your life for a for a reason or for a season right you know and it is hard sometimes like think like oh god you know i we were in love or like i miss that person and that's done if i if only we could know each other now and i'm different you know that can be a little a little tricky to accept they're probably people who i who i'm in love with you know or or have a big love for in my heart that i probably won't see and see it might may not see or speak to again and in this life but I have to remember that like I'm no longer running the show and I trust that there's a bigger plan for me and like as soon as I try and get my hands all over it and manipulate and you

know like I'm just yeah I'm my all my experience shows me that I'm that i'm it's not good for me but i forget that you've used the term god a few times in our conversation another term that i i've really enjoyed hearing is spiritually fit and i'm interested in how you would see yourself are you religious are you spiritual you know how how do those things fit together for you? Um, I definitely don't think I'm spiritually fit 24 hours a day. What does it mean being spiritually fit? For me, it means being out of the way of myself, being willing to trust that there's a, there's a, there's a greater plan for me and, um, to not put my hands all over it to not be in the business of judgment to not be in the business of

manipulation and control to not be in the business of um dishonesty um yeah i believe i believe in i believe that there's a god i'm not religious i'm not a member of any organized like religion that isn't for me if it works for many people it's not something that currently i'm in or around but there have been too many coincidences and seconds and inches moments what i would call god shocks in my life right person right time right place right time you know for me to um to not believe you know and the one thing that you know i've done consistently since the last time i was drunk or high was hit my knees each morning and just to ask for help you know and i choose to use the word God but I've been lucky that I've been taught that it's a God of my own understanding and

my God is not everyone else's God and my God would probably get another alcoholic drunk and their God would probably get me drunk and you know like they're all kinds of people in the places that I go to and you know I've sat in meetings of recovering alcoholics next to on one side of me i got a single mother the other side of me i got an orthodox jew the other side of me i got an ex-pimp i got i got a muslim next to me in a in a hijab you know and they're my friends like i don't care just because they might believe something different to me or whatever like we're all there for you know that common solution and um it's really beautiful and i have much to learn from those people um my experience is that the religion of my childhood

blocked me from the god that i know now because so much of it was man-made um wow and and again you know my truth is not everyone else's truth and i have many friends who have you know the practice organized religion that's okay and it can be very helpful and very beautiful to many people um but no i'm not i wouldn't say i'm religious but i believe in god i love the term energy that keeps coming up in this conversation i think the energy the intention behind how we speak what we say i think i think it's everything i think it's everything um i remember the very first message you sent me on instagram i looked at it this morning oh really what did i say how long ago was it? Five years? No, it was 2018 or 2019. Okay. And I was probably a bit starstruck at the time.

I think I was starstruck as well. He must have followed me and I'm like, Oh my God, my friend Michael's like, Rangan man, he's amazing. You know, I was talking about off screen, he's a doctor. He's like, Rangan's amazing man. So the feeling was mutual. You sent me a message saying, I love the energy of your podcast. And the slightly immature in me back then was like oh my god benjamin frances life has just sent me a message so you know i've been listening to his music for years um and i you know it's something i'll be thinking a lot about and i and i really i feel very humbled to be I feel very humbled to be witness to this conversation, you speaking so openly about your experiences, because I know there's a lot of anonymity in the recovery community. And for those people on the outside, I've always got that sense that there's so much wisdom that we can learn from it.

I really do. And something that I've, on my own journey to become a better human being and a better father and a better husband and a better doctor, is I think about honesty, integrity. I think about the energy with which I put things out into the world. Now with a, you know, a pretty sizable platform to communicate with people, I think the way I say things is actually more important than what I say. I love that. is actually more important than what I say. I love that. And it's a realization in the past few months, really, that it's about, it's, you know, I do have social media platforms that I post on, even though I have grave concerns over social media and what it can do. My way of dealing

with it is, is not spending too much time on there. But it's also to make sure that everything I post comes from a good place. I'm not going to talk down about other people. I'm not going to criticize other people. I'm not going to call people out. And I want to know, is this creating division? Is this going to bring people together? Is this going to put out compassion, kindness, and positivity? For me, that's the only thing that matters. I want to help improve people's lives the right way. And I'm not saying I'm perfect.

I'm not saying I always get there. But it's that energy piece that I think is so, so important. I love that. And I want to remember that how i say something is more important than what i say yeah yeah i love that i agree with that as well yeah the energy good energy just non-divisive i agree the good energy is important and i think i agree that compassion and kindness and forgiveness and love are very important things. But I also know that sometimes being, and only in my experience, sometimes people being truthful and honest with me, even if it wasn't dressed up in traditional loving and compassionate language, was really kind. And, you know, because if I, when I'm in or was in, in the business of, you know, this, you know, addictive behaviors, alcoholism, I would eat, I could easily go to a bookshop and pick up a book on radical acceptance, loving myself, compassioning myself. I know that's not a word but you know i mean and and love myself right into a bag or right into a drink or right into

any kind of behavior you know i'm saying so i have to be careful within that that well yes i agree those things are incredibly important and you know the one of the things i've been taught in in my path of recovery is that love and tolerance of others is that code but i have to also remembering that my powerlessness over alcohol and drugs and not think ben you've really done great be be kind you You know, three years into recovery, you know, you put out an album, you write with all these artists, you're doing great. Be kind.

Be kind to yourself and be compassionate to yourself and really give yourself a treat and go and buy a 12-pack of Red Stripe and a bag of drugs. And I will do that. And, you know, I can only speak for myself, but I can be very sneaky as an alcoholic or addict.

If I'm not picking up the solution that I've been taught by kind human beings in recovery, that's what I'll do. And that's what I did for seven years, you know, reading all kinds of self-help books and all this kind of stuff. And like, you know, for many people, self-help is a brilliant, beautiful thing. But, you know, people get caught in the language and semantics of stuff but actually self-abandonment there's juice there as well in like service yeah your third album was called gratitude yeah gratitude um it's such a powerful emotion and sentiment and I know many people in recovery talk about this a lot. Why did you call it Gratitude? That album was for the 90% of it was written

in end of 2016 to 2017 2017 end of 2016 to 2017 and i called it gratitude because i was at the i was at the moment i wasn't i hadn't got clean and sober yet but i was at the moment of surrender and awareness that i was surrounded in grace and i just hadn't seen it you know the title for that originally came from i was on tour in the states at the end of 2016 I was on like a two-month tour out there I was with my friend Jake he was on tour with me I had a tour manager called Michelle sound guy called Ryan and I fell off playing in um Dallas Texas and I in a place called uh Deep Elm in Dallas Texas and I um I fell off um not fell off the stage but I was just wasted on stage played a show it was it was fine went into the garden and um was chained smoking

cigarettes and having a drink and I met a woman there and um I said can I get you a drink she said no I haven't drank in five years I said why she said I've been there and done that and uh turns out she was five years clean and um that was prevenient grace you know that was that was some someone being put in my life at a certain moment when I really when I really really was desperate and needed it and that person carried the message to me and then we fell in love and for a minute and um it didn't work out but um gratitude for the gratitude that comes from those kind of moments of just like wow like there's there's hope there's hope here there's hope here and i probably came up with that title before that relationship ended but the feeling is true you know like thank thank you whoever's running this show because you're doing stuff for me that I cannot I cannot do for myself and you won't do stuff for me that I can do for myself you know I mean just I was playing a show to a few people in Texas and

that thing that I believe in put someone in my path who drastically shifted the course of my life. She didn't save it, but she carried a message and a solution that saved it for sure. Sounds like you were meant to meet her. Yeah, I believe so yeah i believe so i believe so i mean i'm sure maybe some people listening think that's super cheesy but i feel like it was i am a singer-songwriter after all well on singer-songwriting um writing. It was interesting. Adam Duritz, the singer of the Counts and Crows, certainly one of my favorite bands in the 90s. What a band. He was on Rogan recently, which was

awesome. I've not seen it all. I just saw some of the clips on youtube um but he was telling us about the story of mr jones and what happened to him afterwards because i guess you i know that was a huge global scale and i'm sure you you know similar things where something just goes big and changes things sort of overnight um but he said something which i i thought i'd ask you he says life for me is awkward and uncomfortable but not when i'm on a stage when i'm on a stage everything is fine yeah i totally agree with him i was having that conversation with um i think either my manager mark or or someone else the other night maybe someone in my, my therapist, you know, to be honest, I think it was the other week. And when I'm in the studio, for me, it's when I'm in the studio as well.

When I'm on a stage, when I'm singing and my eyes are closed and I'm singing and my heart's in it, I'm surrendered to it, I'm believing. Or when I'm in a studio, deep in the trenches of a song with an artist that I'm lucky enough to be with and learn from it all kind of goes away and then the second I get into the taxi home or get the lift home or whatever and get as soon as I'm in the cab even I'm like driving through London and I'm remembering like oh my god we were there and we you know this happened there and oh blah blah blah you know I'm I get awkward and then I'm back on my sofa kind of like very lucky to be where i'm at but in a place of irritability restlessness and um discontentment and i'm so lucky to have to have found a solution i can apply to that

hole that we started speaking about at the beginning of this conversation so i agree with adam and what a band you've been very conscious throughout this conversation so far about making sure that we know that this is your own personal experience you're not trying to tell anyone else how to live or claim to be an expert in anything it says this is just your lived experience but i feel we all myself, can learn a lot through anyone's lived experience, including yours. And I'd love to know, to the limit you're open to sharing, what sort of things do you do on a daily basis to keep you right to keep you spiritually fit and then i'd love to understand what happens in 2022 when you go on the road and you're not in your sort of routine and your house and when you're flat where you've got these kind of practices in place yeah do you need to adopt a different strategy have you thought about that and you know

what that may look like the daily routine um again you know it's different for everyone i start my day and um i read some pages from a book um where i found the solution to my um problem then i hit my knees say a few prayers don't always know who i'm praying to or what i'm praying to but it helps me um then i normally make a coffee sit in my garden i read another little little reading from this from a book that i love called daily reflections um and then i turn my phone on you know i try not to get into industry chat and diary stuff before i'm kind of right and i'd say minimum of four times a week i go to a meeting of other alcoholics or addicts in in recovery and hear them speak sometimes they someone speaks for 20 minutes sometimes we go around in a circle or whatever and i listen to them and i speak and i learn from them and people speak about

the solution um and i before i get into bed at night i hit my knees as well and um thank thank whatever it is that's out there for another day clean and sober i've got into habit recently of like praying for like friends who are like struggling with various diseases sometimes alcohol alcoholism, sometimes, you know, medical diseases. How does it make you feel when you do those prayers for people who are struggling? More peaceful than I was before i said the prayer um and hopefully useful um i often call a man in america who takes me through

the suggestions and and and shares with me the solution to or the solution that he has found that i have found to uh to alcoholism those are the things that come to mind in terms of like routine i've toured america and europe and uk and maybe somewhere else um sober so i can answer your second part of the question um i go i go to meetings of recovering or recovered alcoholics and addicts. On the road? Yeah, in America every night because the meetings are everywhere. And in the UK when I can. But I wouldn't leave it longer than a few days.

And I listen to other people who've had similar stories, sharing their experience, strength and hope. And I just stay right in the middle of the bed with that stuff um when i'm on the road and i call others and try and help others be of service to others and as well as call my my man in america man i've so enjoyed uh speaking to you thank you you too towards the end of this conversation now i i would just love to talk about your music um i've said it at the start but i think it's incredible thank you so much man a few of my friends um it's actually one of my best mates who i told um um speaking to you today on the on the podcast he said no way man no way he's one of his tracks

it's like our family favorites on a spot by playlist we all the kids we all listen to it but you know your music is touching a lot of people and um um i heard the two new tracks the first first one, Cherry in Tacoma. There's a couple of lines in it, I love. It's always a risk pinning my happiness on a kiss. One shot wonder. I don't even know what it means, right? But I just hear it.

I go on my water side, listen. I go, I don't know what exactly he's saying, but the energy just hits me. Thank you, man. just hits me yeah thank you man i am that's really a song about my own issues around codependency and you know like we speak about earlier kind of thinking that anything i can do to not really be honest with myself to not really look in would you know she'll if i fly across the world to tacoma and go bowling and you know um watch a movie and sit in her garden by the pacific that the song talks about i'll be happy you know and it's and uh

it's a big risk because i've tried that a couple of times and um it's good i'm not yet i haven't become enlightened it's kind of how we started right success and happiness we we think that's going to give it to us yeah yeah yeah it's a risk it's a risk yeah a big risk yeah you know the insanity of across the atlantic or the pacific you know i mean it's like left to my own devices i'll tell myself that those kind of journeys are really wonderful ideas. And sometimes they can be, and for some people they can be, you know, but it's a song about codependency and a crazy journey to Tacoma,

which I think sounds beautiful to sing. If I look at my diary for 2022, one of the early dates I've got in is your tour. Thank you, man. Listen, I got to say thanks again. Thank you, man man you're you're a week away from from a big release um i can't wait for the album to come out i hope i get to play some of these tracks on my radio to show because i think they're great thank you brother um i think your songs help people honestly i think your songs tell stories that people can

see themselves in and you know if i'm feeling down and i put on some of your music it always it's it's funny it doesn't necessarily in that oh it's an upbeat song lift my mood no it's it's by connecting with the emotion i'm feeling it makes me feel you know you feel less alone and less isolated you feel oh there's someone else out there you know it's yeah it's incredible thank you i feel like that when i listen to music as well it's an incredible power and um just to sort of finish off and i'm aware you do not consider yourself an expert but i'm going to ask this nonetheless this is called feel better live more because when we feel better in ourselves we get more out of life and so i'd love if you have any final thoughts to share

with the audience over you know you've been through a huge roller coaster of a journey you're still on a journey like all of us yeah but have you got any sort of words of i was gonna say words of wisdom but let's take the pressure off have you got any thoughts that you want to share with people who feel inspired by your story and go you know what i can see a bit of myself in ben I want to start making some changes in my own life do you have any words you want to share with them um again like you said I'm I'm not an expert um asking for help is not a sign of weakness

admitting powerlessness is not a sign of weakness, admitting powerlessness is not a sign of weakness, it's a runway to fly off into a beautiful life if one is needing and willing to do that work and getting around a community of people who have identified their problem and are willing to name it for what it is accept it surrender to it ask for help around it and do the work on it it's not a sign of weakness it's it's a beautiful thing and um my experience won't be for everyone's and then and i have no monopoly on recovery or the solution but when i accepted i was powerless i couldn't stop couldn't stay stopped and that my

life was unmanageable that was a point in which i could then progress into finding new management and and clearing the channel and thanks ben that's coming on the show thanks for sharing your story i really would urge everyone listening watching this right now to check out the new album to carry a whale um if you like streaming it's everywhere if you like me and want to get the cd and vinyl, you can do that as well. But I really do think your music moves people. Thanks. And I hope everyone who listens to my show gives it a chance and gives it a listen and see you on the road. Thank you so much. God bless you. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. And please do let Ben and I know what you thought on social media.

I really would encourage you to check out some of Ben's music. In fact, Ben and his record company have given me permission to put a couple of his tracks at the end of this podcast. If you just wait two or three minutes to the end, you can hear two tracks that I've chosen. One is the first track on his new album. It's called Cherry in Tacoma. It's absolutely gorgeous. And then I've decided to play Shine, which is that big hit that was Spotify's most addictive song of 2014.

So do please listen to the end. See what you think of those tracks. And if you like them, you know, check out Ben's new new album to carry a whale and check out his earlier stuff as well i think the music is absolutely fantastic before we finish today i want to remind you about friday five it's my weekly newsletter that contains five short doses of positivity to get you ready for the weekend there's usually a practical tip for your health to try. I'll often write about a book that I've been reading or share an article that I found inspiring. Sometimes I share a recipe that I'm making and I usually finish with a quote that has caused me to stop and reflect. Basically,

anything that I feel would be helpful to share, I pop it in that email. I get such wonderful feedback from my Friday Five readers. Many of you tell me that it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive every Friday, you can sign it for free at drchatterjee.com forward slash Friday Five. And if you enjoyed listening to the podcast, if you found the content useful, please do share it with your friends and family. You can do this on social media or alternatively, you could just send a good friend of yours a link to this episode right now, along with a personal message. Please do also consider leaving a review on whichever podcast platform you listen on.

And of course, please do support the sponsors. You can see the full list of discount codes at drchastity.com forward slash sponsors. Thank you so much for taking some time out of your week to listen. Please do press follow on whichever podcast platform you listen on. So you'll get notified when my latest conversation comes out. And always remember, you are the architects of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. And to finish off this week, I leave you with two sublime tracks from Benjamin Francis Lefwich,

Cherry in Tacoma, followed by Shine. Enjoy. Jerry, I flew all the way out to Tacoma To tell you that I'd, I cared to know you But the signal died and I ended up sober Cherry, I'm on my way, I know it's getting colder Pacific in your garden I can hold you Loosening the chips

On both our shoulders It's always a risk Pinning my happiness On a kiss, one shot wonder Big and tough ball, smash into a wall, what do you know? One shot wonder I'm a fool, a fool for thunder Hey Jerry

Jerry, we could break the ice with bowling or a movie In the car back home you say you always knew me And all about the pain that feeds the beauty It's always a risk Pinning my happiness on a kiss One shot wonder, begging to fall Smack into the wall, what do you know? One shot wonder, I'm a fool, a fool for thunder We are now at Upper Session Road අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි We are now at Upper Session Road I could sing you your favorite song, yeah you'd sing along, you'd sing along

I could wrap you in your favorite clothes and kiss your face just so you know That I'm the one who has got your back, now turn around and don't be sad I hope you find the love that's true So the morning light will shine on you Hope you find what you're looking for So your heart is warm forevermore I could fly you away with me To the furthest place you'll ever be We could smoke till the sun goes down And without a sound, without a sound

We'd fall asleep by the big blue sea With open eyes so we could see The way it shines for you and I You know it'll shine until we fly I hope you find the love that's true So the morning light can shine on you Hope you find what you're looking for So your heart is warm forevermore

I could wait with you by the water I could wait with you by the water I could wait with you for the winter to come I could stand with you with your snow boots on I hope you find a love that's true So the morning light can shine on you We are now at Upper Session Road Find what you're looking for So your heart is warm forevermore