Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #2 How to Stay Calm in a Busy World with Michael Acton Smith

Episode Date: January 24, 2018

In this episode, Dr Chatterjee speaks to Michael Acton Smith, co-Founder and co-CEO of Calm - the app, website and book. We hear about what inspired Michael to set up the company through recognising the benefits of meditation and how we can all bring stillness into our lives in this busy world. Show notes available at: drchatterjee.com/michaelactonsmith Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and BBC television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier because when we feel better, we live more. we live more. Today's guest is a very special person who has created actually one of my favourite apps. His name is Michael Acton-Smith and he's received an OBE. He was creator of Moshi Monsters, an online children's world, and he's now the co-founder and co-CEO of Calm.com. Welcome to the podcast, Michael. Thank you. Very excited to be here.

Well, I think before we start, I just want to share with the listeners how we met, which was only a few weeks ago in sunny LA. And now we're here in cold, wintry, dark London. Yes, indeed. Yeah, very different. Yeah, we were actually both at the same event together. And we were both standing in the queue for a cafe called Cafe Gratitudes. And I think we spotted both standing in the queue for a cafe called Cafe Gratitudes. And I think we spotted each other in the queue. We ended up chatting and really that's how we met. Yeah, we had a wonderful conversation about health and meditation and nutrition. And yeah, a lot of shared thinking and philosophies. It was brilliant.

Yeah, well, that meeting has led to me advising Michael to being on this podcast. Yeah, well, that meeting has led to me advising Michael to being on this podcast. And Michael, you've got a really interesting story. I'm interested how you started off in business and ended up as a co-founder of a meditation app. Could you share your journey? Absolutely. So for many years, I was running a company called Mind Candy, and we created a world for children called Moshi Monsters. Kids could adopt their own little monster and play games, go on adventures, do puzzles with their monster. And it

grew like nothing I've ever been involved with in my life. It was extraordinary. We got up to over 80 million registered users around the world. We made books and toys and magazines and a movie. But one of the big things we learned was how fickle the kids' entertainment world can be. We were huge one minute and then the next kids had moved on. And that was a very stressful time. We had to let people go from the business. Our revenues dropped and I was super stressed. I wasn't eating well. I was sleeping really badly. I had headaches all the time, was just exhausted. And a friend took me aside and said, why don't you try meditation? And I wasn't in the right mindset. I was like, go away. That sounds ridiculous. I had these

preconceived ideas that meditation was religious or woo-woo or a little bit weird. I'd have to get dressed up in weird outfits and whatnot. But I did something I'd never done before. I took myself off on a solo holiday and I started to research meditation. I read the science behind it. I read some amazing books and a light bulb went on and I realized that there was incredible neuroscience behind meditation. This wasn't woo-woo. This was real. This could really rewire your brain in many ways. So that was the moment when I realised, wow, I want to devote the next many, many years of my life to doing meditation, which I'm a huge fan of, is the preconceptions that it might be religious. They might have to sit cross-legged somewhere. They might have to say a mantra over and over again. And I think it can be a bit off-putting

for people. You know, the term meditation or even mindfulness often gets used interchangeably these days. And for me, it's really a practice of stillness. And I think in our modern busy world, you know, it's never been more important than having that pause button to just stop and contemplate whether it's listening to music or going on your meditation app. What did you find yourself when you first started meditating that convinced you of the benefits? you find yourself when you first started meditating that convinced you of the benefits? I found it really difficult, I'll be honest. I think a lot of people do. The mind does not like to switch off. It's constantly whirring and swirling away. So even sitting down just for a few moments, my mind would just fill with all sorts of thoughts and ideas. And one of the triggers

that helped me reframe it and think about it in a new way was that meditation is like going to the gym. You know, we lift weights to strengthen our muscles. And by meditating, we're strengthening the attention muscle in our mind. We sit and it's not about clearing the mind and zenning out. I think that's a misconception. Whenever thoughts come, which they will, we acknowledge them and we gently move them away and go back to focus on a constant, such as our breath. And then new thoughts will flood in and we'll do the same thing and again and again and again. And that repeated practice, that's what it is, a practice, helps strengthen that attention muscle and brings so many different benefits to our everyday life

when we're not meditating. So that was key for me, thinking of it more as almost mental fitness and been hugely valuable for many different areas of my life. Fantastic. I think a lot of people will be able to resonate with that. How long did you try and meditate for the very first time you did it? How long did you try and meditate for the very first time you did it? I think this is one of the things you have to go slowly at first. If you're trying to run a marathon, you don't start by running 10 or 20 miles training. You get off the sofa and maybe you walk around the block.

And I think the same is true of meditation. Even just breathing consciously and being aware of your breath for a few seconds is a good place to start. In the Calm app, we encourage 10 minutes every morning, but even that can take a little bit of time for people to work up to. So for me, it was just very gently beginning with a few minutes and then lengthening from there. I love your marathon analogy because that's the exact analogy I use with my patients in my practice every single day. Because many people come back to me and say, you know, doctor, I don't think meditation is for me. You know, I can't do, I can't switch my mind off. And the first thing I say to them is if I said to you, you have to run the London Marathon next year,

you wouldn't go on one or two jogs and try and do 26 miles and then come back and say hey doc i can't do it i think you would naturally understand that you know you have to train yourself to be able to get to that level and if we've spent our whole lives busy with you know information overload and we've never actually had to pause and think about our our mind and our breath it's really unrealistic to think we're going to be able to do it straight away. So I think lots of people are finding that and I think reframing it as mind fitness is absolutely fantastic. One of the things I like about apps such as your own is that I think it removes one of the obstacles to meditation. Many purists out there will say you don't need a phone,

you should be able to just meditate. I get that, think you know we're in a bit of a crisis at the moment where i think as a society we're struggling to switch off and i think mindfulness and meditation is of critical importance and i think your app simplifies it for people what has the feedback been since you created calm it's's been incredible. It's one of the most rewarding, magical things I've ever worked on. And Alex Chu, the guy I co-founded the business with, and I are just blown away, and the rest of the team at the reviews we get. It's had about 50,000 five-star reviews in the app stores, people talking about everything from how it's helped them get their first good night's sleep in years and wean them off sleeping pills. People have talked about how it saved their

marriage. It's helped little children. It's helped people in nursing homes. It's just every aspect of society. And when we started the business, a lot of investors told us that this is a little bit niche. You know, mindfulness is a fad. It'll pass. That's absolutely not true. It's only getting bigger and bigger. And I think it's relevant for every single person with a mind, 7 billion people on earth. So yeah, just such a wonderful business to work on. Yeah, I can hear the passion because it's obviously a very successful business, but a business that's helping a lot of people. I mean, Phenomenals have created something that's helping people sleep, saving their marriages. it's helping children, it's quite remarkable

and actually I often think about these simple lifestyle changes that have huge benefits quite quickly actually. So if we talk about sleep for a minute and you said someone is you know fed back to calm that doing the meditation through calm has actually helped them sleep better. That's a problem which affects so many people. People can end up at their doctors, they can end up on sleeping pills, they can end up having poor concentration at work because they can't sleep. It causes stress and anxiety. And actually, the downstream consequences of not being able to switch off and therefore not being able to sleep are profound. They affect work, they affect family, they affect the way you feel about yourself.

So just a simple thing, plugging into an application that helps you meditate, can have such profound benefits. It really is remarkable. I don't think there's that knowledge yet that actually these small changes in our lifestyle can have such profound effects. It's so true. I think we tend as humans to overcomplicate things. We think we always look for the most tricky, complex solution. But you're right, simple, very simple lifestyle changes can make massive, massive differences. Just getting a little bit more sleep every night or spending 10 minutes every morning to meditate can transform someone's life. And what I love about your book and your philosophy is that none of these in isolation are silver bullets. But when you combine them, that is when the magic really

starts happening. You know, if all you were to do was meditate and ignore the other areas of your life, you wouldn't see these benefits, but they compound when you do them together. It can be like a vicious cycle for people, you know, either towards poor health or actually a feed-forward cycle towards great health. Because, you know, you take an example of someone who can't switch off in the evening, can't sleep, therefore feels tired and sluggish, craves sugary foods the next day to keep them going, feels sluggish, so doesn't want to actually be physically active, it then becomes this vicious cycle where they find good health too difficult. Whereas if you pick the right thing for the right person, and this is what I say,

you've got to work out what's the right entry point for that individual. Some people like to change their diet first, and when they do that, that makes them feel better. So they want to be more physically active. They then want to, you know, look after themselves and meditate and switch off and then that helps them sleep better. But sometimes, as you've sort of alluded to, people will start with this whole, what I call relaxation, this whole switch off, doing meditation. That can be the ticket. And I would say to people listening, you know, just pick one thing and actually commit to it for that one week and just see how you feel at the end of it. Yeah. Meditation is such a valuable, almost foundation to help other areas of life. You become more aware and conscious of the things you're doing. So instead of instinctively, almost on

autopilot, going to the fridge and taking out something unhealthy, you can check yourself and mindfully say, do I actually really need to do this? Same for so many other areas of your life you might want to change from giving up smoking to social media addiction. It's an incredibly valuable skill. One of the great ways of framing it, I think, is when you meditate, the decisions you make in life are responses instead of reactions. You're not going from the oldest part of the brain, the amygdala, just reacting instinctively to things. You're thinking. You have that fraction of a second longer to make conscious choices, and that changes everything.

It really does. And when you find that new level of awareness, and this is what I found, I look back on the way I used to behave in certain situations. I think, wow, I was just reacting. And now that I can see, I can go back and go, wow, that's what I was doing in my 20s. That's why I behaved like that. Whereas now I hope I sort of can make better choices because I'm a little bit more aware. Michael, I'm a father of two young children and I know many of the listeners also are parents. You mentioned that children use the car map. Yes. Yeah, I'm intrigued by that.

Can you tell me a bit more about that? Yeah, we're very passionate about that. There was a wonderful quote we read a few years ago by the Dalai Lama saying that if every eight-year-old in the world was taught meditation, we could eliminate violence within a generation. And that just sparked thinking with us. It was so powerful. So we decided to make the Calm app free for every teacher in the world.

And we love this idea that they can learn these skills and then bring it into the classroom. And even if it's just starting the school day with one minute of meditation or listening to the waves or the rainfall from the Calm app, it's such a valuable start to children's day. So we care passionately about that. We think it's such a useful skill for children to learn, to strengthen their resilience, to increase their compassion, their kindness, to help them sleep better. And it can help every aspect of their school life. And then as they grow up as well. Michael, I'm so inspired by what you just said that you've made it available for free for every teacher. I mean, what a phenomenal thing to do because the impact of that really goes back to what the Dalai Lama said.

You know, if we can teach children to be mindful, to meditate, to be a bit more present, particularly in the world the way it's going where there's noise around us all the time. You know, we wake up, we've got social media, we've got a bombardment of text messages and things to do and to-do lists. And, you know, it's never ending. And I think it's going to be tricky for kids to navigate that without these skills. Definitely. And we're already seeing the impact of social media and screens everywhere on, you know, anxiety levels are increasing, particularly amongst teenage girls. Depression has been increasing, insomnia, stress levels across everybody. This is a massive, massive issue. And again, something as simple as meditation can have a huge,

hugely positive impact. You mentioned screens. I think it's, I think screens is a growing problem these days. And in my book, one of the suggestions I make to people is to think about a screen-free Sabbath. Now that can be quite a scary thought for many people. And they may feel a day is just simply not possible without their smartphones. And I say, if that's the case, start off with one hour, start off with two hours, maybe build it to half a day. Because when I do that, and I try with my wife once a week, we try to go out with the children and leave our phones at home for the entire day. And I feel like I've had a holiday.

It's just incredible what happens when you don't have these devices with you. But many of us feel we can't. It's so true. I mean, if you just wander around and look, everyone is on their phone walking down the street at bus stops. I was on holiday over the summer and almost everyone had their phone out on the sunbeds. I'm just thinking, when do we give our minds a chance to rest and daydream and look up? It's crazy. And people often say to us, well, you know, isn't calm part of the problem?

We are, you know, teaching through the device and the smartphone. But the way we answer that is that the device and the technology is not the problem. That's merely a tool. It's how we use it that matters. And by learning to meditate, by being more mindful, we can use our phones and our devices the way we want. Rather than being yanked around on autopilot, we become masters of our devices rather than way we want. Rather than being yanked around on autopilot, we become masters of our devices rather than slaves to them. The average person checks their phone over 100 times a day. Now, I guarantee most of those times will be on autopilot. Far better to do it consciously when we want, how we want, where we want. And again, when you have that

control over your device, it improves your life in traumatic ways. Michael, I can't say how much synergy there is and how much it makes me smile hearing you talk, because some of what you just said could have literally been word for word what I've written in my book. Because I agree with you. I don't think technology is bad. I think technology has allowed us to do so many great things, but we need to use technology in a way that it helps us rather than controls us. And I think your app, you know, I understand why people ask that question. And when I posted about meditation via apps before on social media, some people said you don't need an app to meditate.

That's part of the problem. And look, I think you've got to meet people where they're at. You know, if people have apps on their smartphones, by starting off using Calm on their smartphones and learning to be mindful, that may lead them to some beneficial practices. They may think, actually, you know, for the first hour in the morning, if I'm not going to meditate, maybe I'll keep my phone off. Or I know some people, and this is what I do, if I do switch my phone on in the morning to meditate using your app, what I do is I keep it on airplane mode. So I've made a decision to use that to help me, but I also don't want the bombardment from the outside world. So I keep it on airplane mode. And for me, that's been a very

useful tip. Have you had any feedback from Calm listeners, Calm subscribers on little tips that they've used to help them? Yes, absolutely. And for my own life, I do something very similar. I used to go to bed every night doing emails and then would check social media and like an owl would fly by. And I'd find it tricky to switch my mind off, unsurprisingly. My dreams would be filled with tweets and Instagram posts. And so now I never use my phone in bed. And when I wake up in the morning, it's hard to do, but I make sure I don't check Twitter or WhatsApp or emails until I've left the house. And it's incredible the difference it makes. Going into the shower, not thinking about, you know, why my last Instagram post only got four likes or what Donald Trump's been up to

lately. Again, just daydreaming, thinking, just starting the day in a much lighter way is really powerful. These have such knock-on effects, these little routines that we can develop because, you know, this tech-driven world is not going away, nor should it go away necessarily. It's more about coming up with simple daily practices that actually help you harness that what's great about them but also not you know not losing yourself in the process and it's interesting I had a thought then I talk to my patients when I'm talking about changing their diets I say control the environment that you can control the point being when you step outside your front door

these days there is a whole barrage of temptation waiting for you. You can't buy a coffee anymore without having to run the gauntlet of muffins and cakes. And even if you have said no in your mind, you get to the barista and they're trained to say, would you like a pan of chocolate with that, sir? So I say, don't use temptation at home. Control that that environment make that a safe zone it made me think about what you said if you don't look at whatsapp or twitter or instagram by and large until you're outside the house you are controlling and taking ownership of your home and your morning environment which really sets the tone for the rest of the day yeah it's so so true

at work if someone brings in chocolates and there's a big bowl of them sitting in the kitchen, it is incredibly tempting just to pick one up every time you walk past it. So as you say, controlling your environment, making sure those negative cues to trigger unhealthy habits are not there. And in reverse, putting healthy cues into your environment to help establish the habits that you want makes a big, big difference. So Michael, for me, I try and meditate every day, although I must say out of my four pillars, I find the relaxation one the hardest. I find food, prioritising sleep and movement pretty much okay for me. I've really sort of got them drilled down in my lifestyle. But the relaxation element I struggle with, and for me, if I do not meditate first thing in the morning, it doesn't happen. Yes, you're not alone. Most people are like that.

For all the goodwill, for all our intention, if we don't put a routine around it and try and schedule it, it's very hard to kind of slip into the rest of the day. So we encourage people, we think the morning is a great time to try and meditate. And there's a principle called anchoring where you try and do a healthy habit next to something you do instinctively. So we all brush our teeth in the morning, or at least I hope we do.

Most of us will have a shower. You could say you will meditate after doing those activities and before leaving the house. That's one way to do it. Or some people will do it at their lunch break and they'll know before they go and Calm app that has been a huge success is called the Daily Calm. And this is a unique 10-minute meditation that Tamara Levitt, our head of mindfulness, creates every single day around a different theme. So meditating on your own is tough. But when you have something that is new every day, you learn a new principle, you get a

new affirmation, a new quote to take into your day while you meditate. That has made it so much easier for people to meditate and they look forward to it every day. Yeah, thank you for sharing those tips. I think they're going to help a lot of people. Michael, you have so many subscribers to this app. I guess you must have a lot of data in terms of what time people tend to meditate. And I wonder if you're able to share any of those insights for us. Yes. So last year, we saw something really interesting in the data. We noticed that we have users from all around the world. And when we looked at the time of day that people were meditating on their time zones, we noticed a big spike around 10.30, 11pm at night. And we realised what people were doing was they were listening to our

meditations to actually help them fall asleep and drift off. Meditation isn't designed for that, you know, you're in a more alert state. So that led us to create what we call sleep stories, which are these wonderfully soporific, soothing tales that are designed to be listened to at night to help switch your whirring brain off and we combine breathing exercises with music with sound effects and a very very uh slow story and they've been incredible at helping people unwind in the evenings well that's that's so fascinating it reminds me actually of a story from one of my patients where well it's not from one of my patients where, well, it's not just one of my patients, it's a very common story, which is people

struggle to sleep yet they can actually fall asleep when they put the TV on in the evening. I say to them, it's not that the television has some magic sleep-inducing qualities. What it tends to be is that people are burnt out and they can't switch their minds off. And, you know, the end of the day, they've done everything they need to do. They just sit there, they slump in front of the television and they're focusing on something else and their body actually realises, oh my God, I am exhausted. And they just doze off in front of their television,

which clearly they've got to sleep, but it would be much better for them to sleep in their own beds. It'll be more restorative, more comfortable for them. And I think this idea of sleep stories is fantastic because, you know, we can all talk about what's perfect, but we live in a very stressed out and busy world. And I think anything that can help people sleep better is a good thing. Oh, definitely. Hugely important aspect of sleep, as you talk about in the book for our health. As you say, people will put on Netflix or they'll listen to a podcast, but those are not designed to help you go to sleep. You know, car chases and explosions can pop up and you'll be wide awake. One of the things I do when I'm

struggling to get to sleep, again, it's very simple, but is to think of things I'm grateful for. And I think gratitude is so important, but so overlooked. So I'll just think of everything from my friends to the sunshine to just having a roof over my head, being in a warm, cosy bed. And before I know it, my mind has calmed down and I'm drifted off. Yeah, amazing. I actually play a similar game with my children and my wife. You know, when I'm at home, we try and sit down and have dinner together in the evening. And it's a game

I learned from a strength coach called Charles Poliquin. And we go around the table and we have to answer three questions. First one is, what have you done today to make somebody else happy? What has somebody else done today to make you happy? And what have you learnt today? Oh, I love that. And, you know, I thought, oh, this would be really great for the kids. But actually, I find it incredible for me as well. And on so many levels, it helps connect us as a family. We learn something really meaningful about each other. We get to have conversations about it. And it teaches both myself, my wife, and my children about gratitude and about looking for those positives in the day.

And so, yeah, that's our little gratitude game that we play. And I agree with you, gratitude, there's a lot of good science behind gratitude, actually, and what it does. Definitely. The human brain likes to focus on the negative. And, you know, that's done a great job at keeping us alive for thousands of years, being wary of predators and dangerous berries we might be eating. But in modern society, it can be hugely damaging. We can get caught in these negative cycles. And so to consciously try and break that by thinking of positive stuff can improve our mood, improve the mood of everyone around us. So yeah, really important. Absolutely agree, Michael. I talk about people making conscious changes to their lifestyle

to make unconscious changes to their biology. Michael, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I'm going to end with two questions that I like to ask each and every one of my guests. The first one is, which of these four pillars, food, movement, sleep and relaxation, do you struggle with the most? I think it used to be relaxation until I discovered meditation. And still I'm far from perfect, but my practice is getting better and better. I'd probably say it is food and nutrition. You know, I'm an entrepreneur. I work crazy hours. And often at the end of the day, the last thing I want to do is make a home-cooked meal. So I'll pick up a takeaway and that is probably the area of life I need to improve the most. Well, thanks for sharing that. I think we've all got one area that we struggle with at least.

But I must say in LA, which is where you live a lot of the time, I think. Mostly San Francisco, but I do go to LA a fair bit. where you live a lot of the time, I think. Mostly are San Francisco, but I do go to LA a fair bit. I have personally found when I'm in California that it's a bit easier than where I live to make healthy food choices. There seems to be a wide variety of options that potentially aren't available here.

But yeah, thanks for sharing that. And the final question really is, my goal with this podcast is to give people actionable tips that they can apply immediately into their own lives to help them feel better. I wonder if you could share some of your top tips for the listeners. Well, I think the idea of not starting your day with your phone is a really good place to begin. So simple, but try it for a couple of days and see what happens. I think something like 50% of people will reach for their phone first thing in the morning before they've even got out

of bed. So that's one thing. The next is walking down the street, not using your phone. Again, the number of accidents that happen where pedestrians are knocked over because they're focused on their phone is ridiculous and growing. So that's another thing to consciously be aware of. Those are probably two big things. And then starting your day with meditation, just as hard as it is, just persevere with it. Every habit that can change our life is not easy, but it's worth doing and persevering with

and seeing how it impacts every different area of your life. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Can you just clarify for me, for the listeners, if they're not starting their day with their phone and we're trying to encourage them to meditate daily, potentially using apps like yours, any tips for that for them? any tips for that for them? Yes so when I say not starting the day with the phone not starting to go into all the social media and the email and the little spritzers of dopamine that we crave so much when we go into those places and using your phone in a healthier way

whether it might be for meditation or to practice a simple breathing exercise I think there's a big difference and that's as we talked about using your phone where you're in control rather than the other way around. Yeah, thanks for that. And I think that'll be incredibly useful for people. You know, your app is fantastic. I think it's going to help. And while it already is helping hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions of people around the world live happier,

live healthier lives. And I think that's absolutely fantastic. I'd encourage everyone to actually, if you are struggling with your meditation practice, if you've always thought about, you know, I'd like to get into that, but I'm just not sure where to start. I would encourage you to go to Calm and actually download the app. There is, I think, 10 meditations that people can start off with. Yes, there's quite a bit of free content. And then there's about 100 hours of total meditation content for the subscription part of the app. But the seven days of calm is a great place to start. Ten minutes every day for a week

and I'd encourage people to give that a go and see how they feel. Michael, thank you for sharing your insights today. I think what you're doing is absolutely incredible. I very much hope we have the chance to further this conversation at some point in the future. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you very much. I've loved it.

That's the end of this week's Feel Better Live More podcast. Thank you so much for listening. And I really hope you found the conversation useful, but also enjoyable. If you're not already, I'd highly recommend that you subscribe to this podcast so that you can be notified when the latest episode of my podcast comes out. I'd also be incredibly grateful if you consider going onto iTunes and giving this a five-star rating so that I can get this information out and reach more people. It really does make a difference. And if you have any suggestions for people you'd like to see me have conversations with on this podcast, I'd encourage you to get in touch with me on social

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