Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #202 How to Defy the Odds and Become Your Own Champion with Olympic Boxer Ramla Ali

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Caution: Contains themes of an adult nature. The term ‘inspirational’ can be overused when it comes to describing public figures. But in the case of today’s guest, it couldn’t be more fitting. Ramla Ali is a professional sportswoman who became the first-ever boxer to compete for Somalia in the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games. Her incredible story is told in her new book Not Without A Fight: Ten Steps To Becoming Your Own Champion, and I’m honoured to hear it from her first hand. Ramla is a former refugee whose family fled from Somalia to Kenya after the civil war. After settling in the UK, she describes a pivotal moment in her teenage years when she was attacked by a group of boys for wearing a hijab. This, together with advice from her GP that she was obese, proved an incentive for Ramla to begin boxing. But it was a secret she kept hidden from her traditional, religious family. We talk about the range of feelings these events gave rise to, sharing our thoughts on the immigrant experience, and on being the subject of parental disapproval as well as pride. And we discuss Ramla’s journey to the Olympics and how much the African experience differs to that of Western athletes. Until she found sponsorship, modelling helped to pay Ramla’s way in sport. Yet she talks with touching honesty about struggles with confidence, self-esteem and finding her identity as a Somali woman in the public eye. Today, Ramla’s confidence comes from the knowledge she has achieved all this against the odds – and that her fight helps women and girls of all backgrounds, races and religions to be seen. She’s giving back not just through this platform and as a Unicef Ambassador, but through her Sisters Club, a free boxing club that provides a safe space for women in London to access the sport. Ramla is a true role model and living proof that we can all be our own champions. I really think you are going to enjoy listening. Thanks to our sponsors: https://www.vivobarefoot.com/uk/livemore https://www.blublox.com/livemore http://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/202 Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/3oAKmxi. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Follow me on https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee Follow me on https://www.facebook.com/DrChatterjee DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

If you put your mind to something, you will stop at nothing to achieve it. Be brave enough to take risks. Be brave enough to put yourself in uncomfortable situations and you'll end up being happier. Hi, my name is Rangan Chastji. Welcome to Feel Better Live More. Hello, how are you doing? It feels really good to be back in the swing of weekly episodes. Feedback to last week's episode with Andrew Weil has been absolutely incredible. Thank you to every one of

you who listened and shared it with your friends. Now, the term inspirational can be overused when it comes to describing public figures, but in the case of today's guest, it couldn't be more fitting. Ramla Ali is a professional sportswoman who became the first ever boxer to compete for Somalia in the Tokyo 2020 Games. Now, Ramla's an incredible lady with an astonishing story, which is outlined in her brand new book, Not Without a Fight, which has just been released. Ramla is a former refugee whose family fled from war-torn Somalia when she was just a child. And after settling in the UK, she was bullied at school and physically abused, including one particular episode when she was attacked by a group of boys for wearing a hijab. This, together with advice from her GP that she was obese, proved an incentive for Ramla to begin boxing. But it was a secret that she kept hidden from

her traditional religious family. Fast forward a few years, and Ramla is now an Olympic athlete and a model who has graced the covers of Elle and Vogue magazine. So what happened in between? Well, that is the subject of our conversation today. We talk about so many different topics, including how she managed to defy the odds, how she dealt with parental disapproval. And I have to say she talks with a really touching honesty about her own struggles with confidence, self-esteem, and finding her identity as a woman in the public eye. We also talk about what drives her and why giving back to others is so, so important. At its core, this is a powerful conversation about being brave, taking risks and being yourself. I really think you're going to enjoy listening.

And now my conversation with the inspirational Ramla Ali. I was born during the height of the civil war in Somalia. Not a lot of focus was given to records, official records, birth certificates, marriage certificates, death certificates, things like that. So when I was born, the war broke out, my family fled, and a birth certificate was just lost. And a lot of people do say to me well surely your mom should know but you have to remember at that time my mom was going through such a traumatic experience you know it's i i understand why she doesn't remember anything before you know the experience that in you know I'm talking about

so um yeah it's I don't know how old I am but that's a good thing because I will always tell people I'm 21 well well I'll tell you what's fascinating for me is there's a lot of wisdom in that book for someone so young. It is incredible. And I think to me, it's reflective of the diversity of experience you've had in your life. It's incredible. Many people don't go through what you've gone through in their entire lives. And you've gone through that in just a couple of decades or so yeah that thing about age is fascinating because I do understand that because my dad's I don't think I knew until a few years before he died I can't remember when I got told that actually they'd added on they changed back in India I think I don't know his family I think had made him younger than he actually was because to them,

it meant he would have more working years. So he could work for longer before retirement if he was younger. And I was explaining this to my kids just a few days ago. I said, guys, around the world, people have got different experiences. They've got different priorities just because you know the time of your birth, where you were when you were born and your exact birthday, it doesn't mean it has the same level of importance in every single culture. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 100%. Like my dad, I feel like he was in a similar position to your dad. You know, his years have been changed. I don't know by how much it's similar with me like I my sister who um you know when you come into this country if you don't have birth

certificates whatever you have to do this is it called naturalization papers I feel like it's called naturalization paper so she just made up an age, like a year, a day, month, year for me. And she increased it by a couple of years so I could start school early. Reason being is I could get free school meals. So my age was increased a little bit so I could start school early to get free school meals, basically. So you're actually 19 I I might be I might be yeah I mean it's it's fascinating isn't it and I think one thing I've learned um you know having done maybe 200 of these podcasts now is 200

damn that's a lot of podcasts that's a lot of talking it's a lot of podcasts. That's a lot of talking. It's a lot of talking. I love to talk. You know what? You need to love to do it to do it, if that makes sense. And I feel like you love doing podcasts, getting to know people. I feel like as soon as I walked in, I sort of got that energy from you. I couldn't do it. I don't like talking that much. Well, you've got a book out and I'm sure your publishers are going to make you talk to a lot of people. A lot of people this month, yes. But I got pitched you for the show a few months ago and I said yes immediately. Because I saw the pitch, I had a look into the story and I thought,

I want to know everything about that woman. She sounds incredible. Her life story is incredible. You're going to make me blush now. No, but it's true. You know, I relish the opportunity to, you know, you don't get to know these stories, understand the journey from you from you you know as a baby in Somalia to come to this country as a refugee and just a couple of months ago competing in the Olympics so let's go through it from the start but before we do how was the Olympics? It was a it was quite a weird experience because of you know everything that's going on in the world. Japan was just in its like, is it third or fourth state of emergency?

Everything was in lockdown. We weren't really allowed to leave the athlete village. You weren't really allowed to socialize with other athletes. You know, you weren't allowed to go and watch other sports that weren't your own. So you didn't really get the full olympic experience i mean don't get me wrong i was 100 proud and you know i'm humbled to be there and just like it was an amazing achievement for me to get there but when i after the olympics when people were asking me how was it i'll tell us all about it and i think the one

thing that i will tell everyone is that because i represent i represent somalia at the olympics so that the african olympic experience is so different to the western olympic experience if that makes sense you know when you represent the us gb fr France, Australia, I think like the big big countries they have all this funding behind them, they have so much support staff, they have just all the money you can think of just thrown at it and then there's just little old me, me me and one coach I wasn't allowed to take any sports stuff with me so I wasn't I couldn't take my physio my osteo I couldn't take my second coach you know I had no kit I was me and Richard my husband who's also my trainer we were the only two people in the whole village walking around in jeans because we had no kit.

Compare that to everyone else that had like hundreds of kit in their suitcases given to them. So it wasn't, you know, it was a pretty weird experience. And I think the positive that I've taken from it, obviously it didn't go my way, but the positive that I've taken from it is that I went to the Olympics. I, you know, went to the Olympics all on my own with no funding, no money behind me, no support staff, just me and Richard. And I got there on my own. And that is something to be so proud of because I know not a lot of people could do that it's something I hadn't reflected on but the experience of competing for an African nation in your case Somalia is very different from competing well there's a lot of corruption involved I know for a fact that

the International Olympic Committee so the IOC have given a lot of funding to Somalia. And in the five years that I've competed for Somalia, I've not received a single penny of funding. So everything that I have done to get myself there has been from my own pocket. So, you know, like I model a bit and everyone's always saying, well, you do so much, you do so much you do so much

modeling but the thing is I have to because one shoot will pay for a tournament one shoot will pay for tickets to get me to a tournament and the accommodation food and things like that so I've had to self-fund and fully fund myself in the last five years and that's why I said like it's something to be so proud of because I got myself there. That's kind of the story of your life from what I can tell. Against all odds, you have time and time again achieved things. And of course, your story is very specific to you. It's your story. You know, you are now an Olympic boxer. You know, specific to you it's your story you know you are now an olympic boxer you know that that is something that no one can ever take away from you but i kind of feel that we've all got our version of your story in us yeah you know it doesn't mean that everyone listening to this or watching this

wants to be an olympic boxer or believes they can be an olympic boxer but i kind of feel that they've all got their own version of that. Do you know what I mean? 100%. I feel like it's transferable. Is that why you wrote the book? 100%. It's a book about 10 of my most important fights. Every chapter and every fight in that book is a life lesson that every person, the every person person can use it to transfer it to their own life. One of my favorite things in the book is the sort of conclusion sections at the end of each chapter where you almost summarize the key lessons,

which I feel if people read those, there's incredible life wisdom in those. I mean, there's 10 of these life lessons in the book. Yeah. Which is your favorite? Oh, I love be yourself. You know, the thing about being yourself is nowadays there's this, you know, there's this age of social media. People will only put their wins on social media, never their losses. And because because of that it's so hard to be yourself it's so hard because you start comparing yourself to everything that you see and for me sometimes

I have to take a complete switch off from social media because obviously like for example after the Olympics I didn't do well every time I was scrolling through and I was seeing like other people succeeding and doing well it was making me feel bad but the thing is is I'm on a completely different journey to everyone else everybody's on a complete different journey don't compare yourself to everything that you see on social media or what you see of someone else you should should be yourself. And because you're, you're on this completely different path to everyone else. I mean, I think you just, you've hit such a key point there. I've been reflecting on this a little bit recently, um, with respect to the London marathon. Yeah. The truth is I was challenged to do it. A year and a half ago or so, I was on the Chris Evans

Breakfast Show when my last book was out and we did an interview. And at the end of it, Chris challenged me. I can't remember what he said exactly, but it was something like, would you be interested in the London Marathon? And I thought, oh yeah, I would be Chris, but you know what? I don't think I'd be able to get a place now. It's not long to go. He goes, no, no, we've got a place for you. And so he sort of put me on the spot. I agreed to take it on at the time it was going to be in April, 2020 that got postponed because of what's been going on. Uh, it is going to be now in October, 2021. And in and in relation to what you were saying about you're on your own journey 100 the reason i i feel i've been really examining that in my own life recently with to do with the marathon is you know i've always been very competitive in my life and that's not always come from a good place

if i'm if i'm honest yeah and it's as I learn to be more compassionate to myself and let go of some of this inner angst um I'm not just not sure how competitive I really am anymore right so the context is the wrong good of 10 years ago would have been really focused on a time okay what time am I going to do in the marathon? What should someone like me be doing? And the truth is, is that I've got really clear goals. I want to talk to you about goals later actually, but I know for me, my goals for the marathon are really simple and they're very clear on my head. Number one, I want to nasal breathe all the way around. It's just something I'm very passionate about,

nasal breathing. So I want to be nasal breathing. I want to finish with a smile on my face. Okay. That is something I would like to do. I think it's possible to do that. And another one of my goals for it is that I don't want the training beforehand or afterwards to break me and not allow me to spend time with my family and not allow me to do my job. And why that's so interesting and important for me, Ramla, is because if I wasn't clear on my goals, I could get sucked into other people's narratives. Oh, you know, you're only a real marathon runner if you break five hours. You know, oh, someone like you in reasonably good shape should be hitting this time. And occasionally I let myself get caught up

in someone else's story. Then I go, no, there's no, that number, that time, if you finished a marathon and you get a time, that time doesn't tell the story behind it. That doesn't say, oh, you were full-time athlete and you can devote seven days a week to training and resting. Or are you a single mother who's working two jobs and you're also doing this to raise money for charity? That time means very different things depending on the context of the rest of your life. And so when you say our dreams, our journeys are individual, you're spot on. You're looking at those Olympic athletes and going, well, who knows how long they've been training for? Who knows what funding

they got? What team they were allowed to take with them? You know, we don't see that, do we? We just see the top line and we make a judgment. Yeah. You shouldn't look at someone and just make an instant judgment because you don't know the full story behind how they got there or why they're there. Yeah. No, definitely. Let's go back to the start. You were born in Somalia. What do you remember of that time? I honestly don't remember anything. A lot of what's been written in the book

was stories that my mum has told me very recently. Like I've, you know, you come into this, so like, you know, you're born somewhere else, you come into England, you get so used to this, like this, I mean, I wouldn't say it's like luxury, you know, we grew up in council states but compared to you know life back home it you get used to this luxurious lifestyle and you just you forget about your culture and you forget about home and things like that so I've never been in a position where I wanted to sit down with my mom and ask her anything and it's only when I got married that my husband was really curious so you know he'd ask me questions and I'll be like well I don't know so you know he'd get really curious and then he'd want to you know speak to my mom and

it's only when he started talking to my mom my mom telling him these stories is when I actually for the first time learned about my childhood in Somalia um yeah before then for a good long time I didn't know anything about it because I never asked the questions I mean a lot of those early years are written about in quite some detail yeah um in the book and you you talk about talk about your older brother yeah he passed away in Somalia and that's you know the reason why we had to leave sorry flee um was because you know he he didn't survive the war so my mom you know any mom would want their kids to be in complete safety so she said we're going we just left We took a few clothes, everything we had back home, had to leave, pictures, birth certificates, everything was left because that was considered luxury items.

And yeah, the detail you talk about in the book is only because I only learned about it quite recently because of the questions my husband was asking. So what is it like for you as you're starting to hear more from your mum, from your family about your early years? Like, you know, I think back to all the times as a teenager when I was just so horrible to my mum. Like, you know, you go through this phase of just, mum, you don't know what you're talking about leave me alone and stop stop being in my business and like you realize the reason why me birth me I realized the reason why my mom was so protective

was because she just didn't want to lose another child and now reflecting back on those every time I was horrible to her or shouted at her, I just feel really sad. And, you know, I really wish I knew all the stories I did, all the stories that I know now back then. I feel like I would have been a different person. But it's like I said, I just I wasn't interested in getting to know anything because I came to the West. I was now a Westerner. I was now a British girl. Had my friends going out. You know, I used to just leave my mum at home.

Now I make sure I go and visit my mum at least once a week. My mum loves having so much family around her. We make sure that every Saturday we come together as a family. We chill. We get dinner. We want to make sure that that's that's a regular thing now um but yeah i really wish i knew all the stories because you know growing up when i was younger i used to be so ashamed of being somali and i don't know why but now i feel

like a sense of pride it's everything that my mom has told me everything that she went through my mom is like a much better fighter than I will ever be she's honestly the strongest most bravest person I know everything that she's ever been through and to come out still smiling and never complaining of anything that is a true champion to me yeah it's inspirational hearing that, isn't it? It teaches us what bravery, what courage really is, and what some people have lived through and continue to live through, I guess, if we look at what's happening around the world. And I guess that subtitle of the book, 10 Steps to Becoming Your Own Champion, it's kind of there, isn't it? Becoming your own champion it's kind of there isn't it becoming your own champion what does that mean to you your version of that the story from your childhood that you know I read

over and over again was when your parents decided you had to flee yeah but I think you had to wait for a boat to take you from Somalia to Kenya oh my god my mum was like saying it was the longest way ever obviously I was really young I didn't know like a baby still breastfeeding um so obviously I didn't didn't know what was going on um but yeah we waited a really long time for that boat that was just every every time it was like oh yeah it's coming soon you're still waiting and it doesn't come oh it's coming soon like every time you you hear the same story you just after a while my mom was saying you just start to think is this boat ever coming are we gonna end up dying here um and then you got on the boat and it's like because of because of how long

the wait was so many people had started to wait for this one boat. And, you know, a boat that was meant for like 200, I want to say, like 500 got on. So it was like overcrowded. Do some of your oldest siblings remember? Yeah. They remember being on that boat. Yeah.

They told me the story of, so this story is not in the book, but got on the boat and I had contracted head lice. And so, you know, someone's bright idea was, oh, yeah, if you put a bit of rat poisoning in her hair, it'll kill the head lice. So my mom put rat poisoning in my hair, but it made me really sick. And I was like moments from death. So I almost died on that journey as well. Well, obviously I didn't because I'm here today,

but that is a story that one of my siblings had told me that I didn't even know happened. But I'm sure there's like loads there are more stories like that that we just haven't spoken about um but I suspect as you get older you'll you'll want more and more of them yeah like I know for me having kids having kids makes me want to know even more about my upbringing and stories you know it's I've got this real deep curiosity now about things that actually with hindsight it's like why did I not want to know about this stuff before but I think that I think there's something in the

immigrant mentality when you come to a different country you just sort of suppress it down and get on with it do you know what I mean 100 you just want to suppress everything because you try and integrate yourself into where you so you try and so we came to england and you try and integrate yourself into english society as as quickly as possible so people don't see that you stand out you know yeah and people don't call you names or say things about you because you want to you want people to consider that you're from there and you're british and you know x y and z so yeah you're right like i've just suppressed it my whole life i was ashamed of it for a really long time as well ashamed of what being somali being an immigrant being a refugee like growing up it had

such negative connotations with those words um so i've always been ashamed obviously not now but you know i've begun to learn to now i'm so proud of being Somali but back then you know kids are so cruel the moment they you know sniff that you're a refugee they'll start calling you names and I went through a horrible secondary school experience like I didn't have the best um you know when people say secondary school is like the time of your life make sure you enjoy I did not enjoy a single bit my head was buried in books I never got a detention I was like the model student because I had to be I didn't have a lot of friends so can you imagine then then them finding out I was refugee on top so I'll just hide it as much as possible you went from Somalia to Kenya on this boat yeah which sounds incredibly a traumatic

journey yeah um then i think you were based in kenya for a period of time yeah waiting to come to the uk but there was all kinds of challenges during that do you know much about that I was told that we came to the UK on fake Kenyan passports that's what I was told and that's how we came to the UK um and that's all I know it's incredible to hear this because it just shows us all the lengths to which people will go. For safety. For safety. Like, you know, when you see these people that say,

refugees don't belong here, they're only coming here for money. Like, I feel like, you know, when you come here, I'm not sure how much, I think it's like £120 a month, I want to say, in London. Not a month, sorry, a week. Nobody risks their lives for 120 pounds a week. My dad was this incredibly intelligent man. He had loads of degrees. He's multilingual. You're telling me he came here for 120 quid a week when he had such an amazing career back home. No way. A lot of people that do come here as refugees, they come with such amazing skills. They're doctors, they're lawyers, they're architects, but then they've got to come here.

They've got to come here. They don't speak the language and they have to take jobs that, you know, they can, they have to take the first jobs that they can get because of the language barrier. And that must be hard for a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you, I, I'm a, I'm a people person.

I really enjoy talking to people. And then if I'm ever in a taxi, I'll always talk to the driver, find out a bit. And, you know, a lot of the time taxi drivers have come here from abroad. Yeah. And then you talk to them and it's like, yeah, I used to be a doctor in this country or I was an engineer here or I was a lawyer here. And you sort of think, wow, we must have some of the most qualified taxi drivers on the planet. And then what's incredible to me is the work ethic and the, you know, certainly I'm just getting a short taxi journey.

So I'm not going to claim to know the entire life story, but just, I don't know, the sort of, you just got to get on with it attitude. This is what I need to do to support me and my family. So that's what I'm going to do. It's, it's really very, very humbling. Certainly I find it very humbling and I kind of feel, you know, we are living in a pretty divided world at the moment. There's a lot of judgment of other people, but, um, that's one of the things I really, really like about your story is this. You just get on with it. You get on with it, but I think we can all see ourselves in it. You know, you, as you say, you, you know, you would have grown up around a lot of stress that your mum and family were carrying, fear of life, moving, trying to flee, getting to Kenya,

not knowing if you'll ever get this boat to Kenya, thinking you might die on the boat to Kenya. Then from there, having to wait indefinitely to try and get hold of these passports to flee and then seek asylum in the UK. Of course, you're being asked a lot about your story at the moment. Do you ever sit back and in those quiet moments when you're not on your phone and you're sitting there, do you ever sort of pinch yourself and go, what happened? How am I ended up fighting in the Olympics on television? What happened there? What happened there?

Yeah, you do sometimes get these pinch me moments. A few years ago, my brother, he he graduated from kings with a medical degree he's a doctor now obviously my mom's super proud of him you know african parents are the same i'm sure as as indian parents you know if your kid is a doctor they'll tell everyone. But, you know, he posted something like, I beat the odds, you know, born a refugee, this, this, this, this, that, and look at me now. And it's the same for me. Like I beat all these, I beat the odds, you know, I could have died. I didn't. Came here as a refugee. I worked so hard in the last five years. I was working as a model to get myself to the Olympics, you know, doing these 12 hour photo shoots that was so tiring and then competing against people

that have full time, full time funding. So yeah, it's definitely a pinch me moment. You started off the book with an incredibly powerful story, a visceral feeling and memory from childhood when you're 11 years old. I wonder if you could tell that story. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink

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So I was walking. You know, one thing that my mom wanted us to never lose sight of was our culture, heritage, religion as well. She's very big on religion. So when we were younger, she'd sign up for us. She would sign us up for Quran studies. I've got two older sisters and an older brother and one by one they just sort of said I'm not going anymore, I'm not going anymore, I'm too old. So I was coming home from Quran studies by myself and on my road a few boys on bikes stopped me, sort of cut me uh as I was walking down you know ripped my hijab off and um the pin that was securing the hijab right here just under my face and you know just near my neck

as they ripped it off the pin came undone and it and it sort of pierced me in the the neck obviously at that time because of everything that was going on the adrenaline the shock didn't feel it um as I picked up my hijab to put it back on I realized the pin was gone looking for the pin and I realized it was stuck in my um neck and as I pulled it out it was like blood trickling trickling down my um my neck and my body and I think that was the moment that it was really sad it was really um it I feel like it was the day that I just fell out of love with my culture because I thought I remember blaming my mom thinking well you sent me there and it's

your fault that they did this. And I just, I walked in the house and I remember telling my mom, look, I'm too old now. I'm not going anymore. And that was that. I mean, you were only 11 at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 11, 12. 11, 12.

And, you know, you said that was sad. I mean, it sounds scary. It sounds, you know, said that was sad i mean it sounds scary it sounds you know were you scared it was it was really scary because it was i remember three of them and it was me against three boys um so yeah it was it was it was a very scary moment because there was no one else on the on the road we lived on a quiet street you know the end of the road was a very scary moment because there was no one else on the road. We lived on a quiet street. You know, the end of the road was a busy high street, but our road was really quiet. And I was really scared that there was no one there to sort of have my back and protect me and tell them, oh, guys, what are you doing?

And I think I was at a really young age to know anything about racism, to know anything about Islamophobia. And I just I was at a really young age to know anything about racism, to know anything about Islamophobia. And I just took it down. I just put it down to, oh, they must have picked on me because I was Somali. And that's why I sort of blamed my mom. And now I'm just looking back, as I was writing the book, looking back, it's like, why did I blame my mom? It's not her fault. And it's not my fault either it's their fault um but at that time I didn't see it like that getting your hijab ripped off having this injury with the pin in your neck

you know at that age you know you you want someone to blame right so yeah you generally we we often do it with those nearest and dearest where we know we're actually safe yeah exactly and it's and it's like i was gonna let go but we sort of know it's safe because it's actually your mum yeah and she won't do anything you know really and it allows you to get that emotion out in some way yeah but but when you were writing about it did it bring it up fresh again for you and did you oh it made me so angry like i'm just like i really wish i could bump into them right now um and just say try it again let's see what you let's see what you're gonna do like I'm just really angry that I didn't stand up for myself and I just let them you know obviously they're three that is three against one they're

boys you know there's obviously a genetic difference um so I'm not saying that I would have done anything back then but like even just to stand up for myself verbally I wish I'd have done that but I didn't I just kept quiet I was really frightened um but yeah do you think that incident in any way has shaped your decision to become a boxer it could it might it maybe I never thought of it like that I feel like you're the first person to I mean like this is this is the first time I've told this story. My mom still doesn't know the story. And, like, you're the first person to ask me about it.

It could have, because I remember starting boxing that following summer. And maybe the reasons for me starting boxing was to get fitter and to lose weight but maybe the fuel was to know that i'm always protecting myself and to know that if if that situation was to happen again i would have the confidence to you know stand up for myself yeah you said you're angry you're angry at yourself for not standing up you know for who you are and who you were back then are you angry at those boys as well yeah how dare you like what because someone's different they deserve to be picked on because someone's different they deserve to be hurt like there's so that's that's the beauty of London I love living in London it's such a multicultural city you you know you can be next door like one neighbor can be

from you know India and one neighbor can be from the Caribbean and you know you just all live together in harmony you might have differences but you know you're there and you learn to respect each other and I feel like they just didn't respect being a Londoner because you know this you have so many cultures in London and everybody learns to just get on love each other live around each other and be respectful of one another um so yeah i'm angry at them for not knowing what being a true londoner being a true londoner is i can't imagine sort of what that must have been like as an 11 year old girl and you know if i, if I think back, I think, I think about that as a story, as an incident, it's striking to me that you, I think, is it, is it that childhood naivety that

where you didn't know about Islamophobia, you didn't know, you, you sort of almost didn't think it was, there was a racial element to that. right whereas now you're looking through a different lens and you think this this has been documented so much recently or maybe it was still being documented back then but i just wasn't aware of it but now that i read the news more and i watch more news on tv and i you know i read newspapers i know that it does exist um and it's still out there, you know, I read newspapers, I know that it does exist. Um, and it's still out there. And, you know, anytime there is some sort of attack, they will just assume it's a terrorist attack. But then when it's not a person from the Middle East, say for example, if it's a Caucasian man, they'll just put it down to his mental health. But if it's someone from the Middle East,

he's a terrorist. You i i always say i've always said to richard that any terrorist is somebody that suffers with mental health like that's the first thing that people should go and test out is their mental health um but yeah like that's that's how it's like muslim people are labeled now if they do these attacks um the terrorists but if it's someone from a different um culture it's not terrorism it's something else so you know it is how it's being portrayed in the in the news it's really clear that you were brought up with a strong you know a strong faith but you do comment that actually your interpretation of your faith yeah was different from your mum's and I found that

really really interesting so what exactly did you mean by that and you know is that something that caused conflict and a lot of the time how is it at the moment a lot of the time i feel like religion is something that's very individual it's it's it's between you know i i believe you know there's a god and you know the my my interpretation of the religion is my relationship with god and nobody else should challenge that but my mom constantly challenges that you know she'll say things like why are you not wearing a hijab i'll say well it's between me and god but my interpretation of the religion is very different to hers um and you know over time she's learned not to ask me these questions anymore because i will always give the same answer it's my relationship with god yeah but it's about what we were talking about earlier on isn't it

about being yourself yeah about finding the strength to actually be you yeah I kind of feel and not letting anyone dictate who you are you know being you know being brave enough to be yourself because it might be hard you know to be yourself might be really hard like I said in this in this age of social media where anything anyone posts is perfection like these filtered and airbrushed photos it's not it's not real and you know it's it's it's you know that's what everyone strives to be now is to be this perfect image. It's not real. And yeah, it's really hard to be yourself. But I feel like you should always be brave enough to be yourself. Because you'll just live a much happier life.

But that's one of your life lessons in the book is be brave. Yeah. So when you talk about bravery, is that what you mean? Be brave enough to be yourself? 100%. Be brave enough to take risks. Be brave enough to put yourself in uncomfortable situations. Like for example, if I'd have never had my first sparring session in the ring, I would have never have known that I wanted to be a boxer. So I had to put myself in the uncomfortable situation of taking myself out of my comfort zone, getting in the ring,

knowing that I was going to get hit in the face and it probably was going to hurt. But I had to put myself in that situation to know that it was something that I wanted to do. And like similarly, my very first photo shoot, you know, I was so uncomfortable uncomfortable I didn't want to do it like my idea of modeling was to be your height and to be this thin and you know walking on set and I didn't feel pretty but I had to put myself in that situation to know wow I really enjoy this

I'm going to do it more often um so yeah, it's about being brave to be yourself, but it's also about being brave to put yourself in uncomfortable situations to know that you will end up loving something. You end up loving or not loving something. You do write about that photo shoot or one of your first photo shoots in the book. And it was, you know, I was reading that story and I thought everyone's had a moment like this in their life

because you were talking about going to this setting that you'd never been in before, something you'd probably like seen in magazines and probably belongs to a world that was different from your world. And then I think you wrote about the first person there, you know, she looked as though she'd been doing it for years. She was stunning. She was absolutely stunning. And she was about your height, like I said.

And I just felt, honestly, everyone has laughed at me when I give this analogy, but I felt like a potato compared to her. And I was so uncomfortable. But then after, you know, being on set for 20 minutes, 30 minutes, I started to get a bit more relaxed. And then it became really enjoyable. But I had to put myself in that situation. I had to be brave. You know, it could have been easy for me to say, no, I'm not going to do it. I don't want to do it, but I had to do it to know I didn't want to do it. Yeah. And, and I guess the easy thing would have been to bail and go, you know what? I can't do this. You know, she's a pro. She looks

great on camera. I'm going to go and make a fool of myself yeah I don't want to put myself through it did did that cross your mind at all did you think I need to get out of here this is not my world or is that not typically what you would do are you someone who would always stick around and fight no I'm one of those people where um I get too embarrassed to bail on something if I say I'm gonna do something I have to go through with it. This is like the very first time I walked into a boxing gym. I felt really uncomfortable because it was a gym full of loads of boys and there was no girls.

It would have been easy to just walk away, but I thought, no, I said I'm going to come. Let's stick it out. If I don't enjoy it, at least I've given it a try. And that was the same with the photo shoot. I've committed to it now. I'm here. I've given it a try and that was the same with the photo shoot I've committed to it now I'm here you know I've driven all this way let's see if I enjoy it you know let's just do it let's see if I enjoy it if I don't at least I've given it a try and that's

been my motto throughout my whole life like don't don't bail out on something just because it's the easy option you know go for the difficult option sometimes and see you know see if if it's something that you want to do and you know put yourself in those situations what led you to boxing in the first place um i was an overweight teenager went to the doctor mom you know the doctor doctor said, your daughter's, we're considering your daughter as clinically obese. So as a 12 year old, 11 year old, 12 year old, it's not great news, is it? Like, because you only keep getting bigger, like, how much will your eating habits change at that age, unless you, you know, consciously make an effort to to change it and I remember thinking wow you know we were learning about nutrition and things like that in PE

and you know I only ever heard those words clinically obese in like you know when you watch these tv programs of my 300 pound life or something like that and that's what you consider it to be you know clinically obese so when the doctor tells you something like that and you're 12 years old you don't want to hear it so I I said my well me and my mum together made the decision that we would I would start the gym so my sister took me to the gym with my mom's card, signed me up. And yeah, the rest is history. It's interesting, isn't it? Just to think about how these little moments at times in our life shape the trajectory of the rest of it. Because I'm seeing you as this

incredibly inspirational Olympic boxer who's faced adversity and has come through adversity to be, you know, someone who many people see as a role model. And I was just struck as you were telling that story, thinking, man, if she'd never had that conversation with a doctor, maybe she never would have gone to a gym and found boxing. And how many of us are actually you know of course that's all of us isn't it you know all of us are are the results of all these little micro decisions at various times in our life shapes our entire life you're right like these like little micro decisions of doing this and doing that and doing this shapes our entire life. But it also goes back to what I was saying is putting yourself in uncomfortable situations

because you'll never know if you enjoy something and you never know if you want to pursue it. You know, it's like even, for example, a job interview that you want to go to and you might think, oh, it's above, like, it's too above me. Like, I'll never get it it's you know they won't want me you need to put yourself in that situation and you'll never know if they want you or not you need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable yeah for sure it's great advice for as a young i guess girl from an immigrant family in london uh you know strong islamic faith boxing doesn't appear to be the most natural choice is that reasonable to say 100 reasonable to say you know what happened there what happened i? What happened? I mean, why boxing? Yes, you tried it, but what did boxing give you? What happened there that's led to you, you know, lying to your family, keeping secrets, all that kind of stuff? What was so powerful about boxing that it led you to do all of that? I loved the feeling that boxing gave me.

So, you know, whenever the, not the first gym I ever went to, but the second gym I went to, there was a really nice quote on the door just before you enter. And it says, leave your ego at the door. And I love that. I mean, I had no ego, but it's like, I interpreted that as leave all your worries at the door and I love that I mean I had no ego but it's like I interpreted that as leave all your worries at the door and then you'll go in through the doors and you're like in this whole new world where you just forget all the stresses that are going on in your life and for that one and a half hours two hours that you decide to train everything is just forgotten and it for me

I really enjoyed it because it gave me so much relief from my home from all the stresses in my house like I'm sure you have dealt with do you have any sisters I don't okay but a brother okay you won't know this but in the you know I want to say Indian cultures African cultures the girl is always left to do all the cleaning in the house, all the cooking. So it took away all that stress from me. So for those two hours that I was training, I would forget being a Somali or from an immigrant family or someone's dishwasher or someone's cooker. I was just there and I was me and it was just so enjoyable. And that's what I loved about it the most is that I just got to be myself

for an hour and a half and I was just doing something that I loved and it was for me and no one else. And that's what I loved. I think it was boxercise, was it that you first did? Yeah. And I've never done a boxercise class, but I was struck by when you said boxing or boxing at a boxing gym is different from boxercise. Yeah. It's not as enjoyable. Yeah.

And what did you mean by that? In boxercise, it's just all levels are welcome. You come, you train together know it doesn't matter if you've going if you've been going for two years or if it's your first session there's something for everyone boxing a boxing gym boxing you know it is enjoyable at first but when it gets when it gets down to you've got to learn all the correct techniques oh it's it's it's time to prepare for a competition or a fight it becomes less enjoyable because you're constantly watching what you know it's a way it's a weighted sport and you're

constantly watching your weight you know if you eat this, I'm going to go over on the scales tomorrow. And I think that element is something that I really hate in boxing, is the constantly watching your weight. You become obsessive over time. I feel like a lot of people have developed eating disorders because of it. But that is the nature of the competition. It's a way to sport for a reason. You know, boxing is considered one of the most dangerous sports of the competition. It's a way to sport for a reason.

Boxing is considered one of the most dangerous sports in the world. So it's understandable that you compete against somebody your own way, for sure. Do you get scared when you box? No. The only thing I'm only ever scared of is losing, never getting hurt. One thing I hate is you've trained for such a long time and then you lose a decision, and that is so hurtful. Like, I will always congratulate a better opponent and say, you know what, fair play, you worked harder than me today,

you deserve the win. One thing I hate is when you know that you should have won but you weren't given the decision. And that's heartbreaking because you've sacrificed so much time, energy, money into it. So I have a conflict in my head around boxing because I have seen quite a few patients over the years who have told me that boxing changed their lives, that gave them a sense of community, a sense of belonging, a real sort of structure. I remember one of my patients, before boxing, I couldn't do anything. I wouldn't motivate myself to do anything. But in the boxing gym, 10 press-ups meant 10 press-ups. And that discipline was what this particular patient I've got in mind really needed and

thrived on and completely changed his life and of course you know boxing is not something I've really been exposed to I was a fan as a teenager much to my mum's I think once they discussed she she'd never liked boxing yeah so why are you watching boxing these people are trying to hit people's heads but I used to you know I used to get up at like 2 3 a.m my mate would come browns we'd have sky and be watching like the fights from Las Vegas like in the days of you know Lennox Lewis and um you know Evander Holyfield and all that kind of stuff I remember from my teenage years watching all that stuff and I almost remember a bit like what you just said now that, you know, in boxing, they'd say, the commentators would all say, oh yes, this person's going to win on points. Definitely this person's won on points. And then the judges would give it

to the other person. And I remember thinking, oh, how is that fair? Like everyone's saying this person's won, yet the judges have given it to the other person. And that's when I started to really understand, oh, maybe there's more to this and actually who was the better fighter. So I want to know how do you deal with that sort of injustice? But the conflict I have in my head is on one hand, I can see how transformative boxing has been for so many people, yourself. Lots of people say, particularly from certain communities, will say boxing gave them framework, gave them structure, gave them discipline. Yeah, I've also got my mum's voice in the back of my head that ultimately, to me as a non-boxer, you're trying to hit someone's head and take them out. And so some people would call it inhumane. So help me out if you can with that

conflict that I've got in my head. I mean, I don't think boxing is humane. It's a bit of an art form. Like, you know, you spend years in the dance studio learning a routine and that's exactly what boxing is. You spend weeks in the gym learning a routine that could knock someone out um but it just shows or it's similar to like dancing and moving around the you know moving around the ring with like amazing footwork and dazzling people and being called twinkle toes and whatever whatever it's it's i feel like it's the same as that you know watch for me watching certain boxers in the ring to me is like watching art yeah i think that's the only way i can explain it i know like the non-fans will always say oh boxing is so brutal all this blood and all of that all of that

if you can get past that it's actually beautiful to watch especially if you're watching boxers as opposed to fighters so do you know the difference between the two so a boxer is somebody that displays class and skill in the ring and a fighter is somebody that just wants to come and tear your head off i don't like watching fighters personally they are usually the people with the dodgy noses like the noses that look bent and stuff like that. You can tell who a fighter is and who a boxer is just by looking at them. And for me, I always love watching boxers

because it's just so beautiful to watch the way they just float around the ring and display their skills. So yeah, when I talk about it's like art, I'm talking about watching boxers in the ring, not watching fighters. Well, I can believe that. I can totally understand that there is a beauty

to people who know what they're looking for, that the skill level must be incredible. But I guess, maybe this speaks to the fact that I know your family didn't know about this. And I'd love to understand a bit about that. Um, I, I was, as I was preparing for talking to you, I was reading up about female boxing and there was one sort of high profile female boxer. I can't remember her name who was saying, I think every young girl should be taught how to box. Yeah. And I, I, I, I just sat there thinking about that and I thought, you know what? I do every young girl should be taught how to box.

And I just sat there thinking about that. And I thought, you know what? I do have an eight-year-old daughter. I would like her to be able to protect herself as she gets older. Of course, I want that for my son as well, just to be really clear. I'm not saying just my daughter. I would like them both to be able to protect themselves

should they need it in the future. But then I thought, I was reading your story from your side and about your passion for boxing. And then I was thinking, I was trying to flip it and go, okay, if it was my daughter, if my daughter in 10 years tells me she wants to box,

how will I feel about it? Of course, I don't know because I don't know what her drive might be for that but I think part of me as a parent would go man I'd love you to learn the skill of boxing I'd love you I'd love you to train as a boxer but man I don't really want to see you fight and have people taking shots at your face yeah 100% that's that's me being completely honest yeah i agree with you i mean looking back now i i could understand i knew why i was hiding it from them because i knew my mom would be like no you're not doing it i don't want you fighting i don't

want you getting hurt because of everything that's happened like all her traumatic experiences and losing a son and you know we came to the UK and one of my cousins he was stabbed outside of school over a 10 pound debt and killed so you know she she didn't want to in her eyes like most people boxing is brutal it's dangerous I don't want you getting hurt and I could completely understand that. I'm not a mother, but I can understand why anyone would think that way about their child. And I knew hiding it from her is because I knew she didn't want me, obviously for cultural reasons, but she didn't want me getting hurt. And I'm sure a lot of people say the same, would say the same about their children.

But a question, would you say that about your son as well? You don't want him getting hurt? Or is it just your daughter? That's a good question. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. called The Thrive Tour, Be the Architect of Your Health and Happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going

to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour, and I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change.

Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision-making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal. And as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you.

One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much this has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast.

But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. so I'm pretty sure I would say the same about my son I guess I don't like the thought of anyone taking shots at my kid's head if I'm honest right so that's again I always say in theory because you know you never know how you will be in a certain situation um so i i mean i get it i get it there's a conflict right your mom's come from danger she's she's like literally risked life risked everything to get her family to safety and then it's like why why she voluntarily putting herself in danger and to her you can see like i actually genuinely believe that with most people i if we take it outside the situation what if you if you walk around to the other side and

think about that person's experience their upbringing their life experiences it's very hard to not make the case that we would also be acting in the same way if we were them. It's something I use in all aspects of my life, particularly when I find myself starting to judge someone. I think, well, hold on a moment, walk around the other sides of that story. And if you were them, you might be making a similar decision, even though from where you're sitting, you may not. So I could get that. There was also, of course, the fact that your family or certainly your mum, I'm not sure how many in your family didn't really approve of boxing. Why didn't they approve? I think they didn't approve because my mum didn't approve. My mum, african households and families the mom is like the dad they are the decision maker everybody gets my mom's permission before they get my dad's permission so because my mom was so disproving of it they all followed suit so they all didn't they all disapproved

um and that's how it was i think my dad and obviously my younger brother who knew um well let's tell that because yeah you started boxing you kept it from your family so I'm guessing well from what I can tell you you started you it's making you feel incredible you want to keep doing it but you know at home it's not going to be approved off it's making you feel incredible you want to keep doing it but you know at home it's not going to be approved off it's not going to be light so you keep going now this kind of double life actually i think is very common for many teenagers yeah i certainly know for immigrant families yeah it is super common yeah like you know as someone I have some cousins that are like they have this double life of you know they'll be in at home wearing the hijab and then they'll

leave and they'll be going clubbing with friends and like just things that their parents just disapprove of and they have two completely different lives it's quite funny actually actually the other day I was at one of I was at a relative's house and then we were all talking um I can't remember who brought up the conversation somebody brought it up and then we were talking about how how naughty my sister was and how much of a headache she'd give my mom because she would constantly go out and my mom wouldn't hear from her for a really long time and she'd come back and she you know give my mom a headache and then my mom said to me looking back now I'm glad that the only headache you gave me

was boxing and that you weren't up to the same things that your sister was up to because that was literally like I didn't really get into this whole going out with friends partying because of all the discipline that boxing instilled in me. And like, you know, I, you know, friends would invite me out and I'd be like, no, sorry, I've got training tomorrow. No, sorry, I've got to wake up really early in the morning. I can't come out or let's do, no, I can't, sorry, I'm at home. And it gave me that discipline and I just did nothing. And I gave my mom no headache. I can see that because in many ways I guess what they wanted from you on so many levels boxing was giving you yeah structure routine focus

motivation you know these are the things I guess that most parents want for their kids I guess it was just a delivery mechanism of those benefits. They probably would have preferred was something other than boxing. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, but, but now she said,

looking back, I'm glad it was just boxing and nothing else. That's a win at least. That's a win. That's a little win. That's one step to becoming your own champion. Yes. Yes.

Um, so you kept it a win. That's a little win. That's one step to becoming your own champion. Yes. Yes. So you kept it a secret. Now, I'd love you to try and imagine, you know, back to that time where you're sort of sneaking around, you're confiding in your younger brother, you're boxing, you're training, you're trying to get better, yet at home, nobody knows. No. What was that like for you living that kind of double life? It was really weird. I'd be at competitions and I'd see opponents who bring their entire families and I'd have nobody cheering for me. And it was really sad because I had no support. I mean, I've only just realized quite

recently how important support is um you know after the Olympics the first person to call me was my mum I didn't have that growing up because she didn't know slash didn't approve of it and you know having that conversation with my mum and my older brother wasn't so amazing and I think I was at my lowest and they brought me up they brought my spirits up and I realized from then that you know support is really really important I was like truly grateful that she was the first person to call me talk us through the moment when you realized your family knew so tell us about that day the lead-up and exactly what happens it's quite weird um my sister messaged me say hey you're coming home today i'm at the house oh yeah yeah i'm on my way um how long are you gonna stay there

and she said something quite weird like oh as long i'll wait for you until you get here okay so i went home and had you been boxing yeah i was just coming home from training and then i went home and the entire family was there sitting in the front living room including both sisters and both their husbands um and I remember thinking what is going on something weird is going just the way they were arranged it wasn't like it wasn't a gathering of oh yeah let's socialize type it was like everybody was just sat it was a weird like arrangement um I remember thinking what's going on. And then my sister was just like, sit down. We need to have a word. So I sat down and then we saw you on TV and that's

how the conversation started with boxing. Um, we saw you on TV and then they said, we saw you on TV. And then they said, the one thing they said to me was the way that someone's daughter, you know, don't you feel bad that you're hurting someone's daughter? Cause mom feels really like mom is really upset that someone's been hurting you. And that's how the conversation started. It's like, no, it's boxing. it's boxing like you're gonna get hurt you know um then I remember um my mom you know the usual guilt of you're making me sick you're making me ill you need to stop like very dramatic are you lying you're not sick and then she, um, you know, asked me to stop. Uh, and I did because one thing in life, you know, coming from an immigrant families, you always want to please your parents, even if you think it's wrong and it will go against your happiness. You always try and

please them. Um, so I did because it, it was something that, that would please her. So you stopped boxing. How long had you been boxing for at that time uh i want to say about 10 11 years 10 11 years you've been keeping it a secret yeah so the thing is is obviously I was boxing for 10 11 years but my career of boxing has always been stop and start it's never been a fluid career of just training competition training competition training it'd be training I'll have a competition I'd stop for a bit because I'd be too scared that they'd find out. And then I'd start it back up. I feel like the way I did it has been so detrimental to my career

because I personally feel like I should be a lot further than where I am now. I feel like I should have done two Olympics by now, and I've only done one, maybe even three. I guess that goes back to what you were saying before that you're on your own journey getting to the olympics was was one of your big stories against all odds and you you can't really take the context out of that because i imagine most people boxing really take the context out of that because I imagine most people boxing once they started they probably had support their family of their friends they probably had continued training not these kind of gaps where they'd stop for six months or because everyone around them knew what

they were doing and were probably presumably behind it so yeah potentially you would have been further on yet you still got there does that leave you at this moment in your life with any regrets do you wonder well what if I didn't have to do that what if would I have got more from this sport than I already have? I personally feel like you shouldn't live a life of regrets because you'll end up being, you know, there's a lot. There's gyms in London. They have these coaches that are, I could have been this and I could have been that and I could have been a world champ.

I don't want to be that person. And I've always said like never have any regrets because I could have been a world champ. I don't want to be that person. And I've always said, like, never have any regrets because I feel like everything in your life and in your path and in your journey happens for a reason to get you to a point that you are now. Yeah, I would have liked to have had an easier route to get here. You know, I would have liked to have had family support. I would have liked to have had family support I would have liked to have got on the national like continue to stay on the national team and gone to the national team um

you know with full funding and a full support staff and all of that but I feel like the way I did it if I'd have done it that way it wouldn't have been as inspiring as the way I did it now, the hard way. I think a lot of people, you know, can relate to me. You know, not a lot of people can relate to like, you know, the Usain Bolts of this world who just win, win, win, win, win, win, win. And you don't see all the struggles. I feel like because you see all my struggles and how I've done it all the hard way and things like that, it's really relatable. And a lot of people can see themselves, can see me in themselves. And I'm glad that it has happened this way because I feel like this journey that I'm on and this path that I've carved out, it's going to inspire a whole lot of people.

that I've carved out it's going to inspire a whole lot of people and I know one day in the future little girl's going to come up to me and say I started boxing because of you and that will just be amazing do you get messages at the moment from people all the time and what what is there a common theme in these messages what are they saying to you a lot of the stuff is just we're really proud of you you know you've put somalia on the map thank you for you know thank you for putting somalia on the map things like that which is amazing and then a lot of the times is mother is messaging me saying you know i've enrolled my daughter in something because of you it It's not always boxing will be my daughter started karate because of you, or my daughter started Taekwondo because of you.

And that's an amazing feeling as well to know that I'm inspiring mothers to encourage their daughters to take up sport. That's yeah that is amazing congratulations that's that's it's really great to hear that you know you you have this profile now don't you you've you've got this significant profile and with that as you were saying before comes a certain I guess responsibility but how does it feel I guess on an individual level to know that you following your path and now sharing your journey and your lessons through this book and through social media is actually helping thousands of others they see themselves in in you and they're inspired. I mean, I guess that wasn't on your mind at the start, was it? No. For me, it was all purely selfish. For me, it was,

let me start competing for Somalia because in competing for Somalia, I can do all the tournaments that I want to do. I'm not going to get restricted from doing anything you know it's it was all me me me me me like boxing in itself most individual sports are very selfish sports and you know I'll raise my hand and say the decision to do it like that was purely selfish but you know it over time you start getting these messages and then you start to think wow it's not about me anymore it's about all these young girls everywhere that you're in that that I'm inspiring and all these young people everywhere that I'm inspiring and it becomes something much bigger than me and you know it started off purely selfish but it's finished very unselfish.

Do you ever share those stories with your mum? Sometimes. Like my Somali isn't the best of Somalis. It's not the best because we speak a lot of English at home. And then, you know, a few Somali words broken in here and there, my parents don't speak a word of English. So I will sometimes try and explain it. And she says, wow, it's amazing. But like, I hear stories from my sister who's told me things about my mom talking about me to her friends, which is so great. Like, oh, did you know my daughter is, you know, she's basically talking about me like the proud doctor you know son you know how I was saying that she's so proud of my brother that's how she's talking about me now have you

been waiting a long time for that a really long time yeah and it's great that it's finally happened but it never happened but yeah it's really great that's finally happened like i'll say i'll show her pictures of magazine covers that i've done and things like that and she's so proud and she'll tell her friends like if i bring her a handbag from if a brand gives me a handbag so i'll ask a brand for a handbag for my mom and they'll send it to me and give it to my mom and then she'll call her friends did you know ramla just bought me this bag she's like telling everyone but you hear that second hand you don't hear it direct from her no yeah that's interesting isn't it there's a i've seen a meme of the the greatest flex is your parents who will cuss you to your face but talk nice about you behind your back

yeah I mean again it is you know I'm talking to you know someone from a fellow immigrant family so I you know I know it's common in our kind of upbringings, you know, um, I, if I, if I get a real compliment from mum, like, I think, was it my last book or the one before she said, actually, that's, that's a really good book, Rangan. I was like shocked. Did mum just say that? Like, I know sometimes I have to pinch myself as well like who you thought you thought me but but you know what it felt incredible and then you thought wow you know I've kind of man I'd be wanting that validation and I think there's something certainly with might bring in this kind of tough love where you know, always sort of push harder.

You can always do better. Yeah. And I think that's helped on so many levels. But at the same time, it is nice, isn't it? To hear that, oh, they're actually proud. Yeah, that she's proud of me. She used to tell me off for boxing, but now she's proud that I box. And showing off to her mates. And showing off to her mates showing off to her

mates about me like I never thought I'd see that day you mentioned you've been on a couple of covers now you've been incredibly modest because let's let's talk about them this one is L magazine oh that's the most recent one yeah I saw that incredible cover thank Thank you. And I think one was Vogue, was it last year? I think it was 2019, British Vogue. Yeah. So you've been incredibly modest. These are iconic magazines. Their names are known globally.

And you've graced the cover twice. So what would 11-year-old ramla think of that do you think she would laugh at you and say you're lying because you sort of you know you come you come from an immigrant family you live in a council estate you know you have to have a weekend job um to support yourself but then you walk past all these shops of you know the diors the chanels the the coaches of this world and you walk past thinking i'd love to own that one day and then one day they're paying you to wear it it's mad that's why i had to write it because all of this is like unbelievable moments that just need to be documented and told to everyone let's say

there's a teenage girl listening to this at the moment or watching this or a mother of a teenage girl who's struggling with identity and you know feels a bit of a lack of motivation and feels that nothing's really going on with their life what would you want them to take from your story i feel like the one thing that they should know is that i i too struggled with identity for such a long time from the age of 11 to you know i even till now like sometimes struggle with it a little bit but you know you shouldn't let your own fears hold you back from doing things that are you're you're destined to do let's say take yourself out of your comfort zone and do something that you're not comfortable with because it's only then that you will realize if you love it or not be brave enough and be courageous enough to try new things yeah great advice we've covered

and discussed the fact that you've come from a family which belongs to the muslim faith yeah and how instrumental that was in your upbringing, but you're also a female who has got into a very male-dominant sport. And you have got to be competing at the Olympics. You've been on the cover of Elle magazine, of Vogue. You are a Nike-sponsored athlete now. You have got big brands associating themselves with you. So you really have kind of smashed through

quite a few of these glass ceilings, which is really incredible. So even actually go through that and say that, it's really quite something. If we focus on you being a female what has that been like getting into boxing from what i could tell you know traditionally very very male dominated what is what has that been like i mean of course you tell the story of sexual harassment when you're in a boxing gym.

Tell us a little bit about that and how that has shaped your life. Back when I started, female boxing wasn't really a thing. Coaches would never pay any attention to women because it wasn't something that would get them the most money or get them the most um getting the most reward or getting the most recognition because nobody gave a damn about female boxing it was only after the 2012 olympics that it was just such a boom you know i i think i read somewhere they were in most clubs with% increase in female participants, which has been amazing. And since 2012, more coaches are paying more attention to women because they know that female boxing is the future.

It's something different. Women want to learn correct technique. They want to learn correct technique they want to display their technique a lot of women are boxers like i was saying earlier the difference between boxers and fighters like women want to show off how good and crafty they are in the ring um so obviously like it's been really it was really hard starting off as a female because nobody was paying me any attention you know half the time I was learning things on my own and learning things in the comfort of my own room and practicing things that I wasn't

necessarily being taught in the gym um so it's been quite hard but I'm glad that you know because of how hard I found it more girls now are going to find it a lot easier. I don't like some, I think someone asked me once before, like, do you, are you sad or like that it's been this way? I say no, because, you know, I'm now able to pave the way for girls to, to, to have it a bit easier in the future and you know there were a lot of sleazeball coaches back then that there was a lot of like sexual harassment a lot of unwanted touching and a lot of sexual assault you've experienced all of that that i've experienced and i talk about in the book and you know hopefully stuff, because more and more women are talking up about it.

A lot of the women that have had to grow, a lot of the women that have had to endure it and go through it are speaking up and being brave enough to speak up about it. We are paving the way for the new generation to not have to experience it. generation to not have to experience it so that is that is you know it was hard but I'm I'm I'm glad that other young girls are not going to be put in the same position that I was put in has that ever driven you on in the ring when times get tough or for training do you ever think back to harassment or bullying at school or those boys who you know ripped the hijab off your face when you were 11 do you do you hold that pain inside you as motivation or have you managed to let go of it and move on I feel like you just you can't you shouldn't hold on to you shouldn't have grudges and you shouldn't hold on to anger because you just end up being bitter.

There's so many bitter coaches out there who hold because you've succeeded in your career far further than they ever could. There's so much resentment in the way they talk to you and the way they treat you. And I don't want to be that person. So I tend to not hold, right. I'm a very forgiving person because then, you know, I, I end up living a very happier life. Have you had to learn to do that or in the immediate aftermath of some of these experiences, has that anger eaten you up? Has preyed on you have you is that something that always came naturally to you or have you learned that actually letting go of this stuff and moving on makes you feel calmer makes you feel more relaxed and ultimately leads to a happier life I think I learned that from my mum like I said like my mum you know has gone through so much and

it would be so easy for my mom like anybody who's heard my mom's story from the outside looking in would say you know what I can understand if you're very if you end up being a very angry person but she's so forgiving and you know you know you learn the traits of your parents and because that's all I ever saw was this forgiving woman who who's been through so much and just you know forgave everyone that has put her in these situations I then adopted that same outlook um on life it's interesting I I see a parallel when I hear that with my wife's family particularly my father-in-law I'd say because they are East African Indians family particularly my father-in-law I'd say because they are East African Indians and my father-in-law's family Kenya yeah in Kenya yes absolutely there's

a lot of Indians in Kenya yeah and um I didn't know about that Indian heritage side in East Africa till I met my wife I just didn't know about it you know I just knew about my Indian heritage from India and actually if you unpick their story of you know being present in Kenya for the coup being scared you know people coming to the village raping murdering um them having to I mean how far do we go into this but you know them having you know basically my wife and her brother when they were very little had to sort of hide in a kitchen cupboards and be quiet whilst there were people coming to the door and the parents were trying to make sure the kids were quiet so they didn't know they were there and actually there's been an incredible repressed

trauma from that not speaking about it not which is only sort of coming out in the last few years i'd say but vince dad's outlook on life is just incredible it's inspirational like he's the most relaxed person i know nothing seems to face him things come things, things go. He's always got a big smile on his face. He's forgiving. He's understanding. And I hear you talk about your mom. And I know adversity is when we truly grow in life. But I think of the adversity that your mum's faced and then she appears to be a really forgiving person I find that really inspirational yeah my mum is an inspiring woman she should write a book she'll have some stories to tell um chapter one when I found out my daughter boxed so when your mum did find out it sounds as though

there was real turmoil for you in a turmoil because the the sport that you loved on one hand you could no longer do but you wanted to be respectful to your family I think it was about six months or so before that itch became too strong and yeah I just had to go back and you had to go back it's like i said like i loved i loved the feeling that it gave me of just forgetting everything like i could forget my family or the or the the stresses and the struggles of home life and i was really missing that because all i was doing was coming back from uni or work I can't remember what I was doing at the time coming home into a stressful environment then going back to a stressful then it was just this constant cycle of stress and I really missed the outlet that boxing gave me of having to forget all

my troubles and my worries so when you went back to it again you had to go back to keeping it a secret again yeah what actually happened in the end like how did they finally find out um i think that they found out because so this was after i decided to compete for somalia you know we just kept running into closed doors of who do i talk to? Who do I contact? Can't get access to anyone from the Somali National Olympic Committee. It was hard. You know, I met, started following someone on Instagram who was a quite senior politician in Somalia who said, you know, what you need to do is you need to do a sit-down interview or some sort of recording with a very large Somali TV station and then put it out there.

Eventually, the right person will find you and contact you. So I was really nervous because I knew that if I'd have done that because of all the Somali TV that my mum watches at home she would for sure find out but he said this is the only way and I thought okay if this is the only way and it's like I said earlier be brave and put yourself in uncomfortable situations thought if this is the only way this is what I'm gonna have to do so I did I did that um I did that interview and I remember my uncle he called me after the interview was aired to say he'd seen it and he was really proud and he talked to my mum and to make sure that she would in turn be quite supportive um and that's how they found out the second time.

And it just goes to show you that you can do anything you put your mind to. I wanted to go to the Olympics. I had no funding, but I was adamant that I was going to get there. I worked so hard to save up for such a long time. Do you believe that's possible for anyone? I don't mean get to the Olympics. For anyone.

Can anyone, if they want it bad enough? If you put your mind to something you will stop at nothing to achieve it me and richard were saving up for a house and we thought shall we put the deposit on the house or shall we pursue this boxing because we had we were getting no funding i was the smart one and i said let's put a deposit on the house and he said no we're going to do this boxing thing because i don't want you to live deposit on the house and he said nope we're going to do this boxing thing because I don't want you to live a life of regret and so I think we were down to our last month's rent and then after that would have just been homeless and it was Nike came on

board just at the right time you know someone at Nike Dan Smith he just he took a chance on me because I remember before Dan Smith signed me at Nike I'd pitched myself to them to one of their advertising agencies who were like no they they because I'd not really done anything. So, you know, I'd won the nationals like twice and the GB championships and things like that. But because I'd never been to the Olympics or won something internationally, they weren't really interested. But Dan Smith, he took a chance on me.

He saw my potential. And it was because of that we were able to continue because it just created this sort of ripple effect like Nike came on board then another person I feel like sponsors love sponsors if they see you're sponsored they want to sponsor you so Nike came on board then someone else then someone else and because of Dan Smith taking that chance on me, I firmly believe it's because of him that I got to the Olympics. He'd probably be happy that I've said that. Obviously, Richard got me to the Olympics as well,

but if it wasn't him taking a chance on me, all of this wouldn't have happened. All of this getting signed to IMG and getting this sponsor and that sponsor and that sponsor probably wouldn't have happened so i i owe him a lot well big shout out to dan big shout out to dan and also just speaks to the importance and i know you write about this you're very passionate about this about having a team around you right you need to have a team around you, right? Yeah. You need to have a team around you that you trust. You can't just have any person around you. You need to be in sync. That team needs to know everything about you. They need to know when you're upset, when you're happy, how your body

works, the mechanics of your body, what makes you tick. Like you need, it's really important to have a positive and a good support system around you she's got a couple of things i want to cover before we close this conversation down one is relating to sponsors of course as a female boxer there's not much money i i know that there can be a certain perception oh that she's boxing she must be doing really well but actually when you look at the reality, it's a struggle. And as you say, you're down to your last rent check. This is the reality of being an amateur athlete

for so many people, isn't it? Yes. But I remember this story where, I think it was an agency in London. You had a meeting, you and your agency in London you had a meeting you and your husband Richard you had a meeting and they were potentially interested in signing you to get you some deals but the guy only forgot my kit off yeah the guy showed you a picture of a girl in her bikini said this is you know what we're gonna needing or what did he say he said to me that if i wasn't willing to show a bit of skin i wasn't gonna do very well and that was really heartbreaking because i really needed the

money i really needed to you know get some money for competitions because you know you only get better when you compete regularly you only get better when you go to um training camps abroad and you're able to spar with different people who have different styles um so obviously it was really heartbroken and it was only until img who i thank in the book um because they made a lot of things happen. I sat down with them and then they told me that they have a lot of hijab wearing models and that, you know, they have to make sure that only a woman does her makeup, does their makeup and only a woman can style their hijabs and they only wear modest clothing. So they said to me that I would only do things that I was comfortable with because the moment I feel uncomfortable is when it shows on screen

and on camera um that's it I mean it's incredible to hear that from IMG who are women they're women it was two three incredible women um at IMG who said this to me and they've been true to their word ever since because sometimes when they forward me when they forward Richard the email chains and you know they get they get sent the the looks for the for the shoots that I'm gonna do you'll see it no no no Ramla will not wear this like they just know without me even telling them now it's really great to hear that um the last thing i wanted to talk to you about was what this does to an individual to a woman when they become a boxer when they train when they feel stronger because you write very clearly in the book that getting fitter

increased your self-confidence it increased your self-esteem and I know that you've set up sisters club so I wonder if you could talk about what it's done for your self-esteem what sisters club is and why it's so important to you firstly when I was boxing and then I noticed the changes in my body, you know, over time, I remember I was able to run for the bus or as I was getting fitter, I became happier in myself because I was getting healthier. good feedback about me to my mom and that made me really happy to see all that progress right in front of me and you know I became this strong person that I just didn't I didn't want to take anything from anyone and I or after that I started standing up for myself a little bit more and I just wanted to give that feeling of being able to just stand up, stand up for yourself to other people. And, you know, hence the creation of Sisters Club. It was an initiative that I set up back in 2018.

And it was basically a free weekly. So I volunteered an hour of my time once a week to women to help teach them how to box, how to defend themselves. So it wasn't a boxercise class. It was an actual boxing class where they'd learn technique, learn proper defense skills and get fit at the same time. Because I remember my sister, she was pestering me. You know, she's very religious. She wears the hijab, all of that. And she said to me, there's not a lot of safe spaces in London for women where they can train.

So I thought, you know what, let me set this up for you. Set up Sisters Club. And it's just been this thing that has just grown and grown over time. So a lot of the time women you know from religious minorities will come like I said they don't necessarily have space safe spaces in London and then ethnic minorities just people that don't have access to sport then after that women who'd suffered from domestic violence and abuse started showing up. And I remember I had a conversation with one of the women who said she felt really safe walking home alone at night.

And I thought, wow, I've done my job. If I've given a woman a feeling of empowerment and a feeling of being courageous to just having the basic right of walking home alone at night then that's an amazing achievement and that was the initial purpose of setting up sisters club and it's grown so much that we've started expanding it with the generous donations from sports direct and nike i mean i've got to do a lot for it but it's generous donations from Sports Direct and Nike. I mean, I've got to do a lot for it, but it's generous donations. It's incredible to hear. It really is.

You're empowering women from all backgrounds to feel better about themselves, to get out in the world, to feel safe walking home. And I want to say it's incredibly inspirational to hear that story. And I want to commend you for everything that you're doing. Thank you very much. As we wrap up, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More, because I kind of feel when people feel

better in themselves, they really get more out of their life. I always love where possible to leave my listeners with some kind of really practical tips and things that they can think about applying into their life immediately. I know we've covered a lot in the conversation, but just to close off, do you have any final words of wisdom for people listening and watching? Be brave, be courageous, and you'll end up being happier. And don't be afraid to be yourself. Simple advice, but very, very very effective if people want to stay in touch with you you know where can they find you online if they want to get involved with sisters club they want to come along right how can they do all this stuff so you can follow me on instagram

if you want it's just simply ramla ali or you can start following Sisters Club, Ramla Ali underscore Sisters Club. And then we've expanded now to four locations in London, but we're going to expand across England. Coming up north? Yes. I think we're going to do one in Manchester. Basically, we're looking at all of the locations where they have a lot of um religious minorities that don't necessarily feel comfortable being in uh male-dominated spaces male-dominated gyms but it is a class

open to everyone any any woman that feels uncomfortable training in a gym full of men is welcome to come to sisters club if it's anything i can do to help spread the word let me know i'll share it all on social i think it's an incredible initiative yeah i think you're an incredible woman thank you thank you for joining me on the podcast thank you for having me really hope you enjoyed that conversation as always do think about one thing that you might be able to take away and start applying into your own life. And as always, please do take a moment to let Ramla and I know on social media what you thought. Before we finish, I want to let you know about Friday Five.

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