Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #204 Why Running A Marathon Will Change Your Life with Hugh Brasher

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

This Sunday 3rd October, I’ll be one of 40,000 people taking to the streets to run the Virgin Money London Marathon. So, in preparation for what I’m told will be a life-changing day, I spoke to its Event Director, Hugh Brasher. But this episode is more than a conversation about running. It’s about the magic that happens when hundreds of thousands of people come together and revel in what’s possible. We begin by talking about its history, the famous atmosphere, crowd support and many other factors that make the London Marathon experience unique. We also talk about the vision behind the London Marathon, its inspirational aims and objectives that are still based around those drawn up by Hugh’s father, who co-founded the race 40 years ago. And they have more to do with social unity than sporting prowess. If it’s running tips you’re after, there are plenty of them here. But we also discuss the importance of personal goals – how there’s more to marathon success than a certain finishing time. We talk about making mass-participation events more diverse, supporting the ‘back of the pack’ runners but also how we can use physical activity as a tool for life transformation. Whether you run, walk, spectate, volunteer, or watch it on TV, I hope this conversation might inspire you to get involved one day with the London Marathon. Or perhaps you’ll seek out an event more local to you. The point, which Hugh makes so beautifully here, is that the sport is almost secondary. This event is about community, commitment, coming together and celebrating the human spirit. I’ll see you on the start line.  Thanks to our sponsors: https://www.zendium.com/livemore https://www.calm.com/livemore http://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/204 Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/3oAKmxi. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Follow me on https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee Follow me on https://www.facebook.com/DrChatterjee Follow me on https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

What sport does is it teaches you together you will be better. Even though you're running 26.2 miles, you'll be floating on this incredible sea of positivity. Anybody can do it and the feeling you will get will live with you for the rest of your life. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better Live More. Hello, how are you doing? My name is Rangan. I am the host of this podcast. Welcome. And I really do think we have a very special episode lined up for you today. Now, some of you may know that in just a few days, I am due to be running one of the world's most iconic races, the London Marathon.

And if I'm being completely honest, this is going to be me well and truly outside my comfort zone. I'm honestly not sure I would have been doing this had I not been challenged to do it on live radio last year. But I'm really glad that I was challenged because by accepting it, I've been on an incredible voyage of self-discovery. So in preparation for what I'm told will be a life-changing day, I decided to speak to the London Marathon event director, Hugh Brasher. Now, Hugh's a pretty incredible man in his own right who has been through a lot in life and has a lot of practical wisdom to share. But right at the top of this conversation I want to be super clear this is not just a conversation about running or the London Marathon. I actually feel this was a really raw, honest and authentic conversation about all kinds of things that

have relevance to all of us. We talk about how important it is for all of us to try new things, occasionally to get outside of our comfort zone. The incredible power of community and the magic that happens when hundreds of thousands of people come together for a common goal. Yes, we do talk about this incredible event and its history, the famous atmosphere, the crowd support, and the many other factors that make the London Marathon experience unique. But we also talk about the vision behind the London Marathon, its inspirational aims and objectives that are still based around those that were drawn up by Hugh's father, who co-founded the race 40 years ago. And it may surprise you that they actually have more to do with social unity

than sporting prowess. If it's running tips you're after, there are plenty of them here. But we also talk about the importance of personal goals and how there's more to marathon success than a certain finishing time. We talk about making mass participation events like these more diverse than they currently are, supporting the back of the pack runners, but also how we can all use physical activity as a tool for life transformation. Whether you run, walk, spectate, volunteer, watch it on TV, or even have no interest in running and the London Marathon, my hope is that this conversation might inspire you to one day get involved. It could be the London Marathon, or perhaps you'll seek out an event more local to you. The point which you make so beautifully in our conversation, is that the sport is almost

secondary. At its core, this is about community, commitment, coming together, and celebrating the human spirit. I hope you enjoy listening. And now, my conversation with Hugh Brasher. Conversation with Hugh Brasher. The London Marathon is and has been probably one of the main focuses for me for this entire year. It's been there in the background for me. We'll get into the story of how that all happened later on, but you are in charge of the London Marathon. And I'll be trying to sort of figure out what is it about this race that seems to have such appeal for so many people. And literally a few hours ago, my cousin Bobby sent me a text. He said to me, Rangan, the run is incredible. Even before the

run, strangers are saying good luck to you on the streets underground drivers are doing the same on the tannoy this just shows you the buzz that you get before during and after the run the atmosphere that I had on that day is not something I've ever found again since I will now say for sure it's my favorite day of my entire life by some distance if I had to redo one day again I would choose it over any concert I've been to, any birthday, and any holiday. Wow. Yeah. So why was I sent that text? What's so special about the London Marathon? I mean, genuinely, that description, how he's laid that out is for so many people. That is so true.

And why? I think it's because you will be floating, even though you're running 26.2 miles, you'll be floating on this incredible sea of positivity where people, as total strangers, are wishing you the best in the journey that you're on those 26.2 miles and we are lucky in life if we get three or four people that genuinely want us to be successful but on that day you will have tens of thousands of people shouting your name put it on your vest put it on your t-shirt and you, you know, we can't be Harry Kane at Wembley. We can't be Andy Murray at Wimbledon, but on that day, you will feel like

that when they're playing at their best and you will float if that is possible floating 26.2 miles. But that, that, that is the feeling and the emotional, the emotional connection that the crowd, the incredible crowd that come and support will give you. I'm getting tingles just thinking about it because as we speak, as we record this, what is it, 12 days? Yeah, it's 12 days to go and a bit less than that, you will already be running at this moment in 12 days time. So yeah, the final stage of the Odyssey will have started. For people sort of listening now or watching this who maybe don't run and listen to this show for, let's say, health advice and inspiration,

why does the London Marathon matter? Why does it matter beyond the 40,000, the 45,000 people who actually turn up and run it on the streets? What goes on beyond that? And why should everyone really care? Look, it's a great question. And again, there are just so many different answers to it. But it is about inspiration. It's about inspiring people on their health journey, be it their physical health journey or their mental health journey. And that latter piece, that mental health journey, now more than ever over what we as

a society or world has been through and is still going through. That is so important. And when you break down running, it's incredibly simple. It's just one step in front of another, but you have control over whether you take that step or you don't take that step. And for each person, there's research going on at the moment that for each person that does the London Marathon, another 200 people have been inspired to take up that journey of positive physical and mental health. So you've got this incredible community spirit coming together. And it is, it's just like, I say it's basically, it's 40, 000 people running on the streets of london um but around them the biggest street party in the world is going on celebrating those 40 000 slightly mad souls um doing this incredible thing 26.2 miles it's not, but it's achievable if you put your mind to it. And that's, I think,

the power of what the London Marathon has become, which started with, you know, 1981, my father co-founded it with John Disley. At that stage, it was mainly men. It was like only, I think, only 300 women, just under 300 women out of 6,000, just over 6,000 finishers in the first event were women. Now it is a sea of humanity of everyday people. That statistic is pretty incredible. For every one person who does the race, 200 others get inspired. What is that? Is that from watching on telly is that from seeing people who look like them i guess not the elite athletes say oh i guess that looks like a

regular mom just like me and she's doing it i mean what's going on there how does it inspire people beyond that actual event so as you've said, it's exactly, it's like because what you see is what you believe. And therefore you see someone looking like you doing the event, you go, well, if they can do it, I can do it. But there's also a huge charity fundraising connection. So about three quarters of the runners will be raising funds for charity,

but about 1.6 million people have donated to the people running. So even though you've got 40,000 running, you've got 1.6 million that have donated. You've got 4 million watching on telly in the UK live, let alone those that are following it up with, you know, sort of on demand. You've then got it transmitted in 196 countries around the world. And that incredible, it's the stories, it's the human stories that make the London Marathon what it is. It's not the stories so much of the elite athletes. They're amazing performances, incredible performances, but it's that connection where people realize that actually that person is the same as me or that person has a story and I have one that is different, but is motivating for me to go on that journey.

part of that, which I didn't read out before, was him saying, why did I first do it? I did it because I used to watch it every year on the BBC. I used to see it. I thought it'd be great to do it. And it'd be great to say I've done the world's most famous marathon. But he said, since he has done it, he said, those reasons mean nothing anymore. I don't want to say that I've done it. I just want to experience that day again. And I guess for someone like myself, who's 12 days out from my first marathon, reading that, hearing you talk, it gives me tingles. I'm thinking, well, yes, it may be different this year because of what's been going on in the world. But I'm thinking. Maybe it's something that you can read about, you can be told about it, but maybe it's something that you can't really quite get

until you actually do it. I'm going to love talking to you after the event because it's a feeling that, however much I try and describe it, it's almost indescribable. It is. It's a feeling that however much I try and describe it, it's almost indescribable. It is just that connection that you have with your fellow runner, with the people supporting you, who have been on this journey and your connection with people that are supporting the fundraising. And I can't promise you that the last six miles will be feel as you're doing it, the most amazing feeling. Um, but it's afterwards. It's like very often people cross the finish line and they're just in tears. They're just gone through an emotional journey, remembering the reason that they ran, whether it's for a loved one, whether it's for someone they lost, whether it's for themselves, whether it's for a loved one, whether it's for someone they lost,

whether it's for themselves, whether it's for their community, for whatever reason, it puts you in a place that actually is a positive place to be. And you've been through this journey. And I would just say to your listeners, it is indescribable, but if you can, you know, anybody can do it. And the feeling you will get, as Bobby said, will live with you for the rest of your life. Anybody can do it, you say. So this morning I've been asking people who I've come across in my life, would you sign up for a marathon? Someone close to me said, no way. I don't see the point in having to, I don't see the point in pushing my body to that extreme. Someone else said to me, I don't have time to train. I think at the school gate yesterday when someone said, oh, not long till the marathon now, Rangan. I said, yeah, why don't you sign up for next year?

Rather you than me. So why is it that something that in your words, anybody can do, so many people think is unattainable and not for them? many people think is unattainable and not for them so i'm going to ask you a question back because if someone had said to you two years ago before you've gone on the journey that you're going on was it for you what would you have said yeah that's a great question hugh um so let's rewind two years you know for some people a marathon's on their bucket list i don't think it was for me like i honestly don't think it was for me and i think that's because you know i would do the park run yeah um maybe every other week with my son you know so that's 5k it was fine no real problem although uh yeah there was a time when I was starting to get hammy discomfort after

two or three K. I'd say it's a good point. I probably would have thought, if I'm honest, sounds good, but God knows where I'm going to fit in this sort of time into my already really busy life. If I do have spare time, I'd probably rather do something different now how did it change for me yeah that's gonna be my next question that's exactly how does it feel now so funnily enough in the two weeks proceeding to when I found out stroke agreed to do the marathon I was struggling with an injury actually and I couldn't really do the park run. I was sort of the 2K, my right hand, he kept going. And my third book had just come out, Feel Better in Five. I was starting off a book promo in London for a week. And I was on the Chris Emmons Breakfast Show. And, you know, I grew up watching

Chris on telly. So it was a bit of a pinch me moment, even though I'd been on the show before, it was a bit of a pinch me moment even though i'd been on the show before it was still you know this is chris's show and we just had a phenomenal conversation chris was talking to me for the first 10 minutes about this podcast and saying how it's changed his life and it's you know everyone should listen to it i was thinking this is chris evans talking about my show i couldn't quite believe it at that time then we spoke about the book and things were going great. I thought we were just winding up the interview. And Chris suddenly said, and speaking of marathons, what do you say, Rangan? Dr. Rangan Chastian, the London Marathon 2020, what do you think? And essentially, he challenged me on air. I think I sort of semi said yes and said, well, I'm pretty sure I couldn't get a place now anyway. It's not long to go.

He goes, no, no, we've already got your place before the interview. So him and Vassos were looking at me and basically challenged me on air. And I said, yes. I don't think I quite realized it at that time that it was only about 12 weeks to go at that time, maybe 12 or 15 weeks. Of course, the April 2021 ended up getting postponed. I know you ran a virtual event last year, but the actual in-person event is happening, I guess, almost 18 months a year, a year and a half after that initial event, which for many reasons for me has worked out quite well. But going back to that initial point, yeah, I probably would have said a similar thing or probably thought I can't fit that in, but saying yes has transformed my life, right? Because saying yes has taken me on a journey

of self-discovery i was gonna do it in april 2020 like yes it would have been tough but i've got together with a phenomenal running coach who said wrong you can do it. It's going to be tough, but we can get you rounds. But since I've had longer and I'll be working with her, my body is moving more efficiently than it's ever moved before. I've learned about my mental obstacles that happen when things get tough. I've done tough things in the past, but in a slightly different way, this is sort of showing up other parts of my personality for me. So I actually thought a few months ago, I said to Helen, who's my running coach, I said, Helen, even if this got cancelled, I am running a marathon on Sunday, October the 3rd, 2021. I hope it's in London, but if it ain't, I'm doing it somewhere because I'm ready in my head.

It doesn't mean I feel I've done enough training let's be really clear but in my head i'm like no i am completing a marathon in 2021 yeah and i mean uh just when you say that bit about doesn't mean you're necessarily ready as a first-time runner i think that's what everybody feels i think they get there and it's like the the process you've gone through the training i mean yeah you've you've had i mean what is incredible to say is on the day of the marathon it will be 889 days since the last in-person london marathon for the masses it's quite incredible um so it's two and a half years since april 2019 uh to october 2021 889 days i have worked it out because you're looking at me like i'm just So it's two and a half years since April 2019 to October 2021. 889 days.

I have worked it out because you're looking at me like I've... Well, I'm just saying presumably that's the longest gap ever since it started, right? Absolutely. Since the 29th of March, the first year, 29th of March 1981. And then it moved to April in 1982. So there's never been that gap. And I think that journey you've been on in terms of, of, um, adapting over, over that time is a journey that so many people will have shared with you and the ups and downs, the disappointments that we've had

through, through this journey. And then, you know, that's why I really believe that the 3rd of October, um, I mean, I don't know whether you watched the Olympics and Tokyo 2020, and the emotion that the athletes, when they came off the track, were showing was profound. It was deep. And even though they were competing without any crowd, just I think their relief that they had been able at the end of their four-year or now five-year cycle been able to complete their event. I think this is going to be the People's Olympics on the 3rd of October. And that connection that people have with their own emotions and the journey they've been on,

I think it's going to be the most memorable London Marathon ever. Wow, we've had some pretty incredible ones in the past. Well, let's take it back to the start. I believe that the idea for the London Marathon came about when your dad, I think, had a post-run drink in Richmond all the way back in 1978. So tell me about that. What was going on at the time? Yeah, my dad liked the pub. So in our house, it got called the station. I have no idea why. He was coming back from the station, but actually he was in the pub. And the running club that he belonged to was called Ranelagh Harriers and their clubhouse was behind the pub. And he was there one evening and his clubmates came back and they'd just been to New York. And as you say, it was 1978 and they'd been to New York City and they had run

the New York City Marathon. And they were waxing lyrically about it, saying it was the most amazing thing. My father had to go see what it was like. I have to say, my father thought, well, that's the worst thing I could possibly think of, running 26.2 miles on the road. He loved the countryside. He loved the mountains. He might go out for three or four hours for a walk, but the thought of doing it on a rock- hard pavement was the last thing he thought would be a good thing. But he went there and he wrote movingly in the Observer in 1979 about that he had had an epiphany like Saul on the road to Damascus. And my father had been Olympic gold medalist. He had heard the crowd roar at Melbourne in 1956. He'd, as a reporter, which is what he was, he'd been at so many different sports events,

the World Cup in 1966, but he said he'd never heard such a roar as the roar of the crowd supporting 20,000 people in then the gun crime capital city of the world, which New York was in 1979. And that feeling, he asked, he said he knew that London had the course because John Disley, who co-founded with my father, said it did. But he said, did London have the heart and have the soul to welcome the world? And again, the 3rd of October, we will show we do and that Britain does. And it is just, as I say, I can't wait to speak to you a few days afterwards and hear the journey and what you felt it was like

i mean hearing you recount that story about your dad and you know the passion with which you speak always felt there was tears there you what does this event mean to you yeah Yeah, a huge amount. I mean, it's his legacy. It's his and John Deasley's legacy. I mean, they were incredible people. You know, my father was the pacemaker to Sir Roger Bannister, along with Chris Chataway. And you see a picture of those three people, and they were sort of pantheons of sport. And what they did outside sport was quite incredible. Does it make me emotional? Yes. Because the London Marathon has become what I call, and I believe is called one of the crown jewels of British sport. And if you look at the others, you talk about the FA Cup, you talk about the FA cup, you talk about the grand

national, you talk about the boat race, you talk about Wimbledon. Firstly, everyday people can't do that. Um, they're all over 150 years old. The London marathon is 40 years old. And it's that unique bit where you are starting on the same start line of the gods of the sport. You know, whether it's the Elliot Kipchoge, whether it is Bridget Kosky, whether it's David Weir, whether it's Shelley Woods, whether it's Manuela Schall, whoever, these incredible athletes who have been on the same journey as you. And yeah, they might be running an awful lot quicker,

but you just don't get that in anything else and i think how britain has adopted this and um it will be something like 40 percent of the watching population will be watching having the london marathon on their tvs which is incredible that doesn't happen these days with netflix and amazon and all the other channels, but people have just adopted it. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's a real honor to be in the position I'm in, um, and to be inspiring people to, to, to take up running, um, whatever age, I mean, I'm passionate about kids taking up sport and just how it brings communities together and people together. On the London Marathon website, your vision, your values, your aims are all there. It says, one of the aims of the London Marathon is to show humanity that on occasions,

society can be united. I found that really interesting, particularly if we think about the state of the world today, which is very, very divided, a lot of polarisation. This would be going on for years, even before the past 18 months that was going on. So why is it such a passion through this event that you want to show humanity that society can be united? And also, why in those words did you put to show humanity that on occasion, society can be united? Those two words, I thought were really interesting. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1

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to want to understand where someone else is coming from where we want to listen to where they're coming from and um the marathon breaks down barriers you know 26.2 miles it's a long way um and and everyone on that day it's what sport does actually it's incredible it's what sport does you realize that you are united in a purpose and i go back to to kids and um you know i've got an eight-year-old an 11-year-old and i found out you have that have have the same and you know um minded junior park run on on saturday and i think you know you're you're talking in the same way and if you can you know what sport does is it teaches you together you will be better it teaches you that um together with surrounding yourself with great people, you will do great things. But you also can't control everything. And you can't control if someone is going to be better

than you. If you go for a job interview, for example, you can't control if the greatest person for a job is going to turn up, but you can control whether you are well prepared for that interview, whether you have done your research, whether you turn up on time, whether you turn up relaxed, whether you turn up having slept, whether you turn up having eaten the right food, whether you turn up on the top of your game. And if someone turns up better than you, heck, you did your best. Some other time, you will come out best. And that does go slightly away from what we've talked about in terms of showing the family of humanity that on occasions it can be together, because the more

occasions that we make it happen, the more we break down those barriers, the more that the world will realize that that's what we need to do going forward. And, you know, these goals were put in by my father and John Disley. Same ones, really? Same ones. So there are a couple of extra ones that we've added, but that is one of, we've slightly changed the words. It was the family of mankind as opposed to humanity. Mankind is not now, it's humankind or humanity.

So we've slightly tweaked in terms of the words, but those, that, and the marathon's done that. If you go to after the Boston bombing tragedy and our event happened six days later and people, you know, we had 30 seconds of silence on the start line to show our togetherness with what was going on in New York at that time. And we will have people from around the world. Not all the countries will be able to join us on the 3rd of October this year, but it's another reason we've put the event back to the 2nd of October 2022.

So once again, we can welcome the world. And marathon, you know, we're part of Abbott World Marathon Majors, Berlin, New York, Chicago, Boston, Tokyo. We genuinely want to try and bring the world together. And it sounds a ridiculous statement. It really does. describing humanity, division, togetherness. I kept going back in my mind to what you said about what's special about this event, that I will be running on the same bit of roads as some of the best runners in the world. If Kipchoge didn't have the Olympics this year, I probably would be running on the same pavement as Kipchoge. And I think that's incredibly powerful, actually, because as you say, with other events, it can feel quite distant. Oh, that's a great spectacle to watch from afar. Oh, wow. I love watching this. But actually, what can be more powerful at bringing people together than actually, you know, existing, running, facing adversity, maybe at times experiencing pain and suffering, but you're doing it on the same roads, on the same pavements, with the same crowds around you. I guess, of course, I haven't experienced it yet myself. I cannot wait to. But in some ways, that shows that we're all the same

more than anything else. Exactly. That is exactly it. And I think you mentioned earlier that your wife, your kids are coming to support and the um, uh, the conversations they'll get in with other people who are supporting a loved one or just, you know, those conversations again, will bring people together. Um, so, and I think that the more we are connected with our feelings, the more where we feel something together, that's what creates these incredibly powerful experiences, we feel something together, that's what creates these incredibly powerful experiences that you just don't get in life generally. And it is what we have missed more than ever in the last 18 months as we have been segregated, separated. You know, our kids haven't been educated at school. We haven't been able to meet our friends

yet together. We will be bringing people that outside it's safe and it's going to be the most incredible experience and the feeling I hope you get. And I mean, one of the dangers if we talk this up and then you come afterwards and you say, oh, gee, that really wasn't what I expected. Well, I'm sure it possibly won't be what I expected. But you know, one thing I've learned today over the past few years, I think, is kind of just be more accepting. It will be what it will be. As you say, and I've heard you say this in other interviews, I saw this really gorgeous

conversation you gave, I think, to some colleges in London uh to try and inspire you know I guess teenagers and people in their early 20s about going on in life I thought it was absolutely fantastic you could see the passion um and your desire to really help people but you know one of the things you spoke about there and you've spoken about already is focus on what you can control well like I can control how much I train. I can control what I eat before and what I drink before. I can't control the weather, right? I'd love it to be, you know, not too hot.

I'd love it to be like blue skies and cool breeze behind me helping me. But, you know, it could be pouring down with rain. And if it does, it does. I can't imagine that would, if I'm honest, in any way change my enjoyment of the events. And I guess even if, I don't know, of course I'm hoping to complete the events. I imagine each year, are there people who pull out and they're unable to? Do you know what sort of percentage that is? Yeah. I mean, one of the slightly bizarre statistics is, so about each year, about 450 people start but don't finish. So about 450 people drop out on the route of about 40,000 people. So you're playing around with about 1%, just over 1%.

And that sounds reasonable to me because it's hard yeah although everyone can do i actually do believe that everyone can do it actually something may happen on the day you might sprain your ankle or an injury might flare up and you might come to the point where actually you know what i could go through but i'm probably gonna knacker my knee if i finish this and then not be able to walk for the rest of the year so you know do you know what sort of people drop out and do you know sort of for what reasons they they often do it it is most often it is an injury that they sustain um or an illness that they've picked up um that they didn't realize and then as they're going through the day, I mean, we've done a huge amount of work this year for the back of the pack runners. So we've got a party bus at the back.

We've got a load of tail walkers. So people who are helping runners. We've got supporters from miles 16 to 24 to walk with people if they are um uh sort of really feeling the effects so we've done a huge amount to support people on that journey because they've done a huge thing to just to get to that start line that's really exciting first of all i'm intrigued as to what goes down on the party bus um but i'm fascinated that as a society and i'm super aware that you come from a family of high sporting pedigree. Dad, an Olympic gold medalist. I think your mum was a high level tennis player. Yeah, she won the French Open, both singles mixed and doubles.

So understatement of the year that you come from a high sporting pedigree family. There's obviously a fascination with the elite in society. We like to see how fast people can run. We like to see, you know, who's the best tennis player or who's the best whatever. But it strikes me that talking to you about the London Marathon, talking to my friends who've done it or who aspire to do it at some point, it strikes me that in some ways there should be more focus on the back of the pack. Because in some ways, they're the kind of everyday heroes. They're your neighbours. They're the people who don't have their own coach, their own physio. they're the people who don't have their own coach, their own physio. They don't have infinite time to rest and chill after a long workout. They're the ones who are squeezing that workout in

around looking after kids, school run, job, shopping. Is this something that you think has to change across the side? Do you think it's something that the London Marathon has had to evolve over the years, this real focus on the back of the pack? Yeah, I think, and actually, I think it's something, I mean, we've had a partnership with the BBC since day one in terms of that's where the marathon has been on TV. And if you think there's coverage pretty well over six hours live, yet the elite athletes are taking two hours and 30 minutes. So two hours for the women and two hours, actually two hours 15, two hours 20 for the women

and just over two hours for the men. The elite wheelchairs are about one hour 30 and one hour 40. So actually you've got, you do have more coverage of the everyday stories because those are the ones that actually inspire people and those are the ones um where the marathon really connects with people going back to on a on a level i mean the gods of the sport amazing but that's not us um that's not who we can aspire many of us to be um but actually just being the best that we can be um memorize you know doing something in memory of something of somebody else

um helping someone on that journey helping through fundraising that's things that we can do that's going to give us a positive life experience and um that's i think you know positivity and being positive in life that's what it's all about go out enjoy life and and the london marathon even though you're on this journey of 26.2 miles you will feel at the end that you have done something incredibly positive. What does running a marathon teach someone about life? What doesn't it teach them about life? So I think, firstly, just one step at a time. I think, firstly, just one step at a time.

You know, we are in society, we tend to fear change. We tend to fear what might happen that is bad, as opposed to actually looking at what might happen that is good. And, you know, I, as you say, come from a sporting background. Um, my passion is actually motorbike racing. That's what I do. And, um, you don't look at the corner. You're always looking through the corner, past the corner where you want to go, where you want to go is a safe place. If you're looking at the corner, you're probably looking at the kitty litter. You're looking at off track, you're going to end up off track. So you've got to look where positively you want to go. And so I think that, um, what the marathon teaches you is firstly

one step at a time. It's a long journey. Um, and there's a Chinese proverb proverb, and I'm not going to get it right, but, uh, just something like the journey of a thousand miles starts with one step yeah and and that's what the marathon can teach you it can teach you also surround yourself get information you've got a coach yeah now I mean where did you find your coach from where did you get your coach from so look I'm incredibly lucky um and I want to acknowledge that not everyone has got the resources to have a running coach and uh a time to put into that um but but the honest truth is what happened is after I came out of the radio studio and got into a taxi with Gareth who's, who's videoing the conversation at the moment.

I was like, what have I just done? I've just said yes to do a marathon. I can't run more than 2k at the moment without my hammy going. And it's in April. I was like, well, it's in April. That's not long to go at all. So I got on, I had work to do, so I had to put it on my mind, get on with the job. And I thought, okay, how am I going to do this? I've said I'm going to do it. I would like to do it. And I caught up a chap called Gary, Gary Ward, who's been on the show before. Gary is the guy who I really put down to someone who helped me pretty much get rid of my back pain i had 10 years of chronic back pain in my 20s i was trying everything you know physios doctors um or you know basically all kinds of treatments things would help for a bit but

i would never get to the root cause of the problem. And I knew, you know, people say, oh, wrong and you're tall. It's just the way it is. I thought, I just do not believe that just by being tall means I have to put up with debilitating back pain for the rest of my life. And I've always been very inquisitive and curious. And I found this guy, Gary, who's incredible. I went on one of his courses. I think it was the first doctor to study his methods. And in a nutshell, he said, wrong in your right foot is not working properly. If we can get that, you know, moving more efficiently, I think that will help your back. And literally five minutes of foot exercises a day. And my back was like 70, 80% better. So what's that got to do with the marathon story i phoned up gary i said listen mate you gotta help me i am meant to be doing this in a few weeks

he said all right come and see me well well you know let's see what we can do went to see gary and he said he left me a voice message a few days after and he said rongan i know especially over the past few years since you've been on telly and with the podcast, you have got an incredible black book of people to call. But I'm telling you, speak to Helen Hall. She's unbelievable. So I went down to see Helen with Gary. And that was the last January 2020. Helen is one of the most incredible human beings I've ever met. Not only is she got a way of looking at the entire human body, that's just incredible. And I've seen a lot of great coaches in my life. She is definitely in the top drawer of anyone I've come

across. She's getting my body moving more efficiently. And as I said, the marathon for me has been a journey because I've been seeing her and talking to her regularly. She's now become one of my closest friends. And together, she's helped me. There's many things she's taught me, if I'm honest. One of the things that she's really helped me see is that your training has to fit around your life. And for me, I really want to sort of get this message out there to people where possible that, and I wonder what your thoughts are on this because the marathon's a long way. So, you know, most people would think it requires a huge amount of training, a lot of time out. I have to find this time from somewhere. A lot of people are still training even when they're

already knackered. I actually think that's another way because when I say I haven't trained as much as I would have liked to, you know, it's been a busy year for a variety of reasons. Things have come up in work. You know, my mum who's, you you know she turned 81 a couple of weeks ago she's not really well she's been falling a lot my brother and I helped care for her and Helen's helped me realize that wrong and look you can only train as much as you can train you can't fabricate time out of thin air and she's helping me realize that you can actually train for a marathon and also be kind to yourself. And I'm not sure that's the common narrative. I think the common narrative is you have to punish yourself. Even if you're exhausted, you have to still get those trainers on and go and push

yourself. I totally agree with you. In a simple phrase, in the simple um answer you do not need to punish yourself and actually that's not a positive thing to do um so you need to start recognizing when you're tired and adapt your training and or not go training and then do it the next day you're you know on the journey that people the hardest bit i mean that you got the first step but if you've not run before it's those first six or seven weeks that's the hardest bit once you've got through those first six or seven weeks you're actually getting endorphins you're getting a natural high from the fact that you're running and you're going to want to do it and actually sometimes it can become compulsive and you've got to try and dampen that down do it um because it feels good um you know

and going back to my father in 1981 he used to write an article in the observer there was the bracer way and it was the hanscom way and the hanscom way was like run miles and miles and miles and my dad's way was much more going to the mountains have a bit of fun do it do it sort of more infrequently, do it with a pint of beer, and you'd have different people following on which way was better. And in the end, it's about the individual. It's about what works for you. I think that's the key point, what works for you.

So this journey of self-discovery for me was really trying to figure out, why am I actually doing this? Am I doing it because I said yes? I don't think I am. I think the old Rangan, the younger, the less secure Rangan of five, 10 years ago would have definitely done it because I said yes. And I remember when I posted about it on social media that day or the day after we posted the video of Chris asking me. And a lot of my followers said, Rangan, don't do it just because I said yes. You should talk to your wife. It's going to be a huge amount of training, a lot of time out of your family, all this kind of stuff. And it was amazing to see their concern.

It was amazing to see their concern. But it hasn't really been like that. The truth is, and I wonder what your view on this is, especially because you come from a competitive family. Well, I assume a competitive family from the achievements of your mum and dads. I think my identity used to be, it used to come from external achievements. So, oh, if I did this, it would help support my self-worth. It would make me feel artificially good. So in the past, if I said yes, I was going to come hell or high water. I would have done that event and completed it, even if it broke me. But the Rangan of 2021, I would like to think is very different. If I honestly thought that doing that event would break me or give me a knee injury,

I would have pulled out. I would have said, hey, you know what? I said yes, but you know what? me a knee injury, I would have pulled out. I would have said, hey, you know what? I said yes, but you know what? Genuinely, I can't fit it into my life. Because I've had longer, I've realized, and Helen has been hugely influential on me throughout this journey, that you don't have to beat yourself up. She said very similar to you. She says, what humans are good at is putting one foot after the other. Humans can always keep going. It's what we do best. And whenever I struggle, I always think about it. And she says, wrong. And if the distance is long enough, you will come out of your funk, you know, walk. You may not feel good, just walk for a bit and you will come out the other side.

So instead of thinking, oh, I'm done now, just walk and you'll probably find you feel different. So I guess I'm getting quite emotional thinking about this, but I have been on this process of really understanding my body better over the past 18 months. I feel what I've learned with Helen and on this journey to do the marathon, it's going to help me in every aspect of my life. It's going to help me walk better. If I play golf, I'm going to golf better. It's going to help me have more mobility in all my joints. So actually for me, a week on Sunday, in some ways it's the culmination of all that self-discovery, but it doesn't stop there. It doesn't stop there. It's not as if that's the end destination for me. No, I'm not going to suddenly stop running a week on Sunday and go, oh, cool, that's done now.

Let me get back to my life now. I'm already thinking about the marathon year after. If I'm honest, I'm already thinking, oh, what about the London Marathon next year? What about ultras? I'm already starting to think beyond it. And I want to ask you, Hugh, because last year was obviously a very difficult year. You had to cancel the event. I remember in the summer, July, August time,

I remember there was quite a lot of animosity on Twitter saying, you've got to let us know. We've got to know, know. We've got to know, am I to keep training? Do I stop? What was that like for you and your team when you were getting that animosity? Because I imagine behind the scenes, it was very, very hard to know, could you put this event on? But then also, what does that teach us? I understand people want to know, but if we're really focusing on this as a process, a journey rather than a destination, in some ways you could argue it doesn't matter whether the event is happening or not. Do you know what I'm getting at? Of course it matters,

but do some of us get too entrapped and thinking it's of course it's a great event but i don't think it's just about the event it's what it teaches you along the way and beyond and look you've said a lot of pretty profound things there and um you know how did it feel when we were getting the criticism, you know, just tell us what's going on? It felt difficult. But we had knowledge that we were trying to do the right thing and that we were doing the right thing, that we were working with London authorities. I mean, putting the London Marathon on, it's going through five London boroughs plus the city. It's in the Royal Parks.

You've got the BBC. You've got the mayor's office. You've got Transport for London. You've got a myriad of different private landowners, be it Canary Wharf, Tower Hotel. You've got so many different people that you are speaking to who help you and who need to be allowing you for that marathon to go on. Um, and so we were trying to give people as much information that we could. Um, and we were dealing with so many different scenarios that we had planned. Um, uh, and yes, it didn't, it didn't happen didn't happen but I agree with you it's about you can as an individual you can focus on well it's just about that one day and I agree with you it shouldn't be about that

one day that one day is going to be incredible but life is should never be about one day life should be about every day it should be about the journey it should be about every day. It should be about the journey. It should be about, I mean, one of the things I want to ask you, how do your kids now feel? You know, it's coming up with 12 days to go. What are they saying to you, Dad? What's happening?

What are they saying? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last.

Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision-making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal,

and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of

their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. I mean, they're excited. They can't't wait they want to come down they want to watch I said daddy will we be able to see you you know you're pretty tall I'm like okay kids you know I'm tall but there's gonna be a lot of people around I don't know they're just really excited and can I just say that's part of the that's part of this wider sort of sphere

that what you're doing and what you're doing, talking about it here with, you know, you've already said 650,000 people listening every week. Um, and the journey that you're going on and what's happened and the ups and downs of it, actually the process and you know you're inspiring your kids you're inspiring people listening to this that's just the most incredible thing to be doing and um hopefully that again fills your heart with just incredible joy yeah it does you know seeing the excitement on the kids faces i know I know that will matter, you know, if, as people say, at some point in the race, when your mind is saying, you should stop, you can't go on. Yes, I'll draw my internal resources.

Yes, I'll draw my internal resources. I've been doing a lot of thinking about this marathon, as you can probably tell, and I guess a lot of it's coming out at the moment because you're here. But I'm going to finish that marathon. I can see that. I can see that in your head. I can see it as you imagine.

I'm not going to finish it at the expense for everything else if something happened that i thought i was gonna you know bust my knee if i continue okay i'm not gonna be stupid i will you know pull myself off the course and go okay it wasn't meant to be this year yep but but what's really helped me and i did an instagram post on this which people really liked about a week and a half ago, maybe we can talk about it, is I've got clear on my goals. Not other people's goals, not the newspaper's goals, not what people write about in running magazines goals. That's all fine, but I really don't want my goals. And I've done a bit of

self-inquiry as to what do I want out of the marathon. So I've got four goals in my head, which are unique and personal to me. It doesn't mean no one else can have them. It just means these are my goals. I want to do it mostly nasal breathing, because I've been studying a lot of nasal breathing. I've spoken about it a lot on the show. I know what it does to our body physiologically. It will keep me in the aerobic zone. There's all kinds of reasons. So I'm going to see if I can do that I want to finish with a smile on my face which I'm sure I hope everyone can do or aspires to do I want to do it in my vivo barefoot minimalist shoes because Shoes because I've been wearing barefoot shoes for eight, maybe even nine

years now. I really like feeling connected to the ground. I'm not advocating people go and suddenly do that just to be really clear. I've been wearing these kinds of shoes for a long time. Yes, it means I don't have any cushioning, but I've been learning to run this way. So for me, that's something I want to do. And the fourth thing is I didn't want the training to not allow me to do my job that I love or spend time with my family the way I want to. And it really hasn't. And that's what I'm really, really proud of. It's not gotten in the way of my work. I'm not saying everyone can do that. really proud of. It's not gotten in the way of my work. I'm not saying everyone can do that. I've just been very, I think I've trained smart. And again, I will give huge homage to my coach for helping me. I think she goes, Rongan, look, I wouldn't run this week. You've got too much on,

your bucket's full. You're going to put more strain on your body. So I feel, I don't know if I'll manage to meet all those four goals. I'd like to think I'll finish with a smile on my face. Even if I'm crying inside, I'm sure I can, you know, put on a smile for the ends. But the point I'm trying to make you is that people ask you what time are you going for? This has been really hard for me because I've always been really competitive and I don't think it came from a good place in the past. If I look at those four goals, which one of those four have got a time at the end of it? None. So this has been a real struggle with me because part of me wants to look at the time, but part of me is also going wrong. And that's a narrative you've grown up with since you were a kid, that your time matters, that it's important. It says something

about who you are. But I've come to the realization a few months ago, my wife and my kids do not care one jot if I do that marathon in two and a half hours or six and a half hours. They will not love me even 1% less. It doesn't change my ability to do my job the day after. And I think why I'm so passionate about getting this message out there, Hugh, is because I really so strongly feel that many of us walk around and we absorb other people's goals and we think they're ours, but they're not. And therefore we're trying to live up to something that's not ours. You can't compare yourself to Elliot Kipchoge. A, he's one of the most talented athletes probably ever to walk the earth, but he's a professional athlete. He can run, he can get coaching, he can rest when he needs to rest.

And I feel, what do you think about a focus on times? Because I'm not saying it's always wrong, because for some people, it's a great motivation tool for them. But when you look at that time, let's say four hours, 4.30, five hours, it doesn't tell you anything else about that person's life. Was that person running a marathon in five hours and they were single and they were in really good health and they had nothing else to do apart from work and train? Or were they a single mum working two jobs, also caring for a relative and actually just getting on that start line was one of the most incredible things I've ever done. You know, it doesn't tell that story. And that's why I'm so keen to try and get this message out that you can do it, but do it your way.

And look, again, I think that's just such a great life lesson, which is we do absorb so much pressure from external and have to live up to, you know, you talked about my father, my mother, do I have to live up to that or people, you know, what their friends have said that they should do or what somebody else did? No. I mean, that's the great thing about the marathon being such a leveler and, um, you know, just have that inner strength, have that belief in yourself and that, you know, you can, as your coaches said, finish it. And by the way, anyone can have a coach by joining a running club. So in reality, that accessibility might not be as good as your coach, they absolutely can do that so they can go on the internet they can research stuff so it it you know i'm not criticizing people for trying

to run a time i'm just going as enough pressure on society a full stop for us at the moment more i mean just ridiculous amounts at the moment So it's one of the reasons in terms of the virtual event that we did in 2020 and the fact that it is incredible. There'll be 40,000 people on the road from Greenwich to Westminster, but there'll be another 40,000 doing the 26.2 miles in their community, doing the virtual event their way in 23 hours they've got 23 hours 59 minutes and 59 seconds to do it in and that again for me just makes the marathon even more powerful even more helpful even more inspirational um and and it just takes away the pressure for so many people where they've got crowds you know some people get agoraphobia they don't want to, or claustrophobia.

There are too many people around them for whatever reason, but they could do it their way. I love the fact that we are, together we run, is what we're doing both virtually and on the event on the day from Greenwich to Westminster. One of the most incredible things, I think, for people watching the London Marathon is the variety of people taking part, the different shapes, the different ages, the

different sizes. And I think that's what's incredibly special about the events we're going to put this podcast out just a few days before the ballot opens for 2022 so here for people who are thinking all right i'm thinking about it i hear what you guys are saying but it's still not sure whether they should put their names down in that ballot what would you say to them just do it it's as simple as that i think it's the first step going back to what we talked about the first step if you take that first step and put your name in um you might get a place and if you do get a place then you've got to go now i've got you know people will find out at the end of january beginning of february 2022 what a great way you then got another nine months with which to um ease yourself in to the fact you're then going to be running that 26.2 miles in october

so um and that's a journey that you'll go on and as you say it does not have to be pressurized it can be that you're going to start walking a mile that's what you're going to do that's your first thing that you're going to try and do is walk a mile or walk half a mile um but it's that you know we know that if you have an event at the end, if you've set yourself a target to complete it, not in a time, just to complete it, then you are much more likely to do it and then try and find somebody else. I mean, Chris Evans got you involved. And that's what I love. Chris is just so enthusiastic, him and Vasos and how many people they get involved to get that realization that it is accessible if you put your mind to it it's about comfort zones isn't it it's about putting yourself outside that comfort zone

to see what happens yep and you know speaking as someone who feels incredibly grateful to have a place, because my cousin got a place in 2018. He's not got in on the ballot since. He's just each year waiting and waiting to see. He wants to experience that again. And I know how lucky and fortunate I have been to be given a place. So I do not take that for granted. given a place so i do not take that for granted but i'm so glad chris and vassals challenged me because had she not i would not have been on this voyage of self-discovery but i had to say yes i'd have that date on the calendar and then i had to learn around it and i think that's the power isn't it you know put your name in the box you may not get it but if you do then suddenly you've got to ask yourself a few questions yeah and i mean you probably you know in terms of i know you talk about this a lot in terms of the importance of sleep the importance of the right food and nutrition but again these are all things that on the on the journey you're on you'll sort of realize because you'll feel the difference when you're running you'll feel the difference in your

legs and your muscles and it is then just about looking after yourself holistically and you will end up in a much healthier place i believe at the end of that journey you have something called the spirit of london marathon awards and i'm interested as to what they are and what are some of your most memorable stories from the marathon yeah I think you know we've talked a lot about the feeling of running that 26.2 miles and the spirit of the London Marathon is about people that have really shown that feeling, have done something that is connected with the world, with Britain. And, you know, it really is just incredible, just some of those stories where people have, uh you know their story has blown up um

so an example would be um in 2017 i think it was the duke and the duchess of cambridge and prince harry talked about i mean the marathon became the mental health marathon it was they uh there was they took 12 people with mental health issues and um they were followed on a tv program on this journey that they they went on and there was one particular woman who her story was just quite incredible she She had lost her baby aged one and five days later, her husband had then committed suicide. And she unbelievably felt she wasn't worthy of anyone's love. She didn't feel connected to the world. And the journey that she went on in terms of building up her confidence through running that 26.2 miles, the story that got told was quite incredible. And that is Rhian Burke. That story that was shown on TV and the spirit that she showed, showed the true spirit of the London Marathon. And, you know, I feel incredibly proud that the London Marathon was the end vehicle for that campaign of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Prince Harry about mental health, something that we as a society didn't talk about. You know, it was very

easy to understand if someone had a physical health issue, you've got a broken arm or you're limping or you've got a bandage, but to understand mental health and how they have changed society in that way and that the marathon was part of it. And this, you know, the spirit of the London Marathon is about that. It's about, you know, just the first winners. If you go to Dick Bidsley and Inga Simonson,

who, you know, these were the elite runners, and they finished that first London Marathon hand in hand. And talk about setting the marathon off in a way that you couldn't possibly have written. I mean, if someone had said that these runners, the best runners in the world are going to duke it out over the roads of London and then finish hand in hand. But there are just incredible stories every year and the spirit of the London Marathon is where people are brought together. You know, whether it's Michael Watson, who the boxer and he did it in eight days,

I think it was in 2003, the same year that Paula Radcliffe broke the world record. There are just these stories. It's worth your listeners just looking them up because they're moving stories and they are the reasons that people ran and the journey that they went on and I believe that the marathon for each one of them has helped them on that journey I mean it's incredible to hear these stories, these individual stories. I guess there's going to be 40,000 stories each year, right? Because each individual, whether it's their first marathon or their 20th marathon,

there's something about that distance, I'm sure, that teaches you something new every time. Because each day is different. You will have slept differently coming up to it. You will have eaten differently. Your life circumstances will be different. And therefore, the you that shows up will also be slightly different each time. And so, it's incredible to hear that. And as she was saying that, it made me think that when your father thought about the event, co-founded this event in the late 1970s, early 1980s, a long time ago, mental health would not have been on anyone's agenda, mental health would not have been on anyone's agenda, whether it's for a physical activity race, whether it's in society. I guess back then, the view would have been a marathon

is about physical health. Whereas these days, we're discovering that arguably more important than that is its effects on our mental health. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, that you absolutely that, you know, they absolutely never thought about it in 1981. I mean, my father died in 2003. They certainly weren't even thinking about it in 2001. So that really, as I said, only happened from 2017. But also I don't think that the, you know, we have gone through one billion pounds having been raised by the runners for good causes, having run the London Marathon. One billion pounds. And I don't think he and John,

I mean, John died a lot later than my father, but I mean, John knew that we were getting to the billion and he was immensely proud of it. But my father would never have thought of that was possible. So I think it's just grown in this incredible way that the community has, you know, Britain and the world has helped it to grow. I mean, it's an incredible statistic that to think that this event has raised more than £1 billion. And that really answers one of my first questions, which is why should we care about the London Marathon? You know, why does it matter more than just those 40,000 people who are on their own journeys on that particular day? And I think that's quite clearly there,

shows the societal relevance. But what happened there? Because there was no thought towards mental health when it first started. There was no thought, from what I understand, to charity when it first started. So what happened? At what point did the London Marathon start to become associated with charities? Was it from the crowd? Was it an individual? Or was it from the organization itself? So it actually came about because trying to get businesses to enter the London Marathons, there were some bonds created by Dave Bedford, who was a previous race director, and they were bonds for businesses to get guaranteed places and for whatever reason businesses didn't decided didn't decide that was the right thing that they wanted to do but charities did and they um sort of i think amplified something that again is just a

uniquely british thing which is sort of the fancy dress piece. I mean, you might be smiling. I'm really hoping you are smiling as you come down that finish straight, but be very careful. Do have a quick look around about who else is around you. Because one of my favorite memories, I think, was, I think it was Andrew Strauss running the London Marathon and a full gorilla out sprinted him down the finish line this guy dressed in a full uh gorilla suit and this is why it's such a leveler it's like you know one of the greatest cricketers in the world and then this this guy obviously was absolutely all out i think andrew was just sort of sauntering to the finish line this gorilla comes shooting past him so his finish

photo was probably andrew strauss with a gorilla next to him. So I think there have been so many things that have happened. Like when we talk about the virtual, the marathon, it's like the fact that we believe that we'll have something like 80,000 people around the world, both in their own communities and on those roads from Greenwich to Westminster doing it. That's an incredible thing that we could not have imagined in 2019, that that's what we'd

be saying is happening the next time the full London Marathon happens 889 days later. We would not have imagined it. So I think what we've been quite good, the team has been great at doing is developing, listening and developing the event. And it is the most popular marathon on the planet. 450,000 people applied in 2019 for the 2020 event how many applied for it was actually four i think it was 456 000 people from um applied in six days to do it to do the 2020 actual london marathon the one that didn't actually um happen um so nearly half a million people applied for 40 000 places yes how many applied for this year oh uh it wasn't as many because we didn't have the in 2020 we didn't have um you know people doing the actual in-person event and i think it's it it's that bit where you get the connection the humankind coming together where you know that's what it inspires people so much what do you do about that as an organization because as awareness keeps growing year on year as people i guess the learnings of the past

two years or so you know we've all learned things about ourselves about what makes us tick what do we miss when society shuts down you know what are the what are the things we truly value in life and if more and more people think yeah i want to come together as a community i want to be on those iconic london streets putting one foot in front of the other you're already struggling to meet demands with nearly half a million people applying so what happens as more and more people enter that balance there's going to be more and more people enter that balance? There's going to be more and more disappointed people. And look, it is a very,

it's both a great position to be in, but a difficult position to be in. And I think, you know, we do say there are other marathons other than London. And there are some great other ones in the uk in terms of the manchester marathon the brighton marathon ennebra marathon and it isn't just about marathons it is just about you know you've talked about park run yeah um and well i see a lot of similar as you talk about the marathon you talk about you know the back of you know the back of the pack the bus there the tail walkers

i've heard you talk about volunteers before which we'll maybe get onto next i'm hearing a lot of similarities to parkrun i mean yes i don't know whether you've had paul cinton hewitt um and interviewed him who founded parkrun i'm not at paul yet i've had nick the ceo of parkrun yeah excellent which was great yep so and still i remember one of the most impactful things he said to me on that podcast was parkrun is a social intervention masquerading as a running event yep or something to that effect and that has stayed with me yep and um

you know i'm proud of the journey i was a director of parkrun in its early stages right um and before you took the job in the marathon yes um before i took the job at the marathon um and um uh i started one on christmas day in in about 2007 or something. So it's the Bushy Park. And then I think there were maybe three at the time. There was Bushy Park, Wimbledon, and one other. And I do remember saying that this will be seen as even more important than the London Marathon.

as even more important than the London Marathon. And that's a pretty bold statement to make, especially in the position that I'm in, but it is that community. It is the fact that they are going on every day in communities around now the world. What Paul has done, what Nick is doing, what Tom Williams is doing, what that team is doing, is quite incredible to get people on that journey, those first footsteps. And it is, you know, it's like

you talk about the back of the pack. When we had our back of the pack issue, which is we let down the runners at the back. And those are the runners that we're actually trying. Those are the people who are participating that we're trying to inspire, the people that this is not normal to do 26.2 miles. So how can we genuinely create an amazing atmosphere for them? And that's what we're hoping to do with the party bus, with the tail walkers. But yeah yeah park run is quite incredible and and i just think that we link together in a in a lovely way i agree i mean it's it's for me it's not about which is the most impactful i think they're both doing incredible things in their own way you know park run has been transformative in our in my own family life you know it's something we've certainly used to at least collectively do at the weekends together

um i know as a doctor i've got many patients whose lives have been transformed by parkrun not only those who want to run it i've got many case studies i think about in my head now are people who i encourage to go and volunteer yeah and the volunteering was transformative for their mental health yeah how important are volunteers to i guess all sporting events but in particular the marathon yeah i mean quite simply they couldn't happen without volunteers. We will have about four and a half thousand volunteers around the route. And again, people come back year on year. It is quite incredible because, as you say, the benefit that you can get, how you're helping other people, that you can get how you're helping other people the benefit you get just by giving your time and your positivity to helping someone just direct them in one place or helping them on the

route giving them jelly babies i mean that's probably one thing that uh depending how your nutrition strategy goes on the day you might well be i'd always remember one year um and I really hadn't done the training and um I knew it wasn't going to go very well and uh basically from the last six miles I was stopping and eating jelly babies crisps cheese sandwiches you name it anything I was just shoving in my face because I'd hit the wall and um but yeah the volunteers are the lifeblood of the event and as you say whether it's it's, that happens in London 2012 and the Olympics, our volunteers were just absolutely incredible. And that's what made the Olympics so much was the one of 40 000 but it's that you're bringing other people together to experience that incredible high that's what makes it so in such an amazing day you get runners who come year on year uh i know there's some stories i think there's is it 11 people who've done every single one the last time in part of my research this conversation i

was like 11 people every single one that's incredible do you get volunteers who keep coming back each year and want to volunteer every event or is it kind of fresh new blood every year or are there some sort of stalwarts who are always there and it's part of who they are it is actually both and i mean one of the big things that we're also trying to do is is is make the marathon more diverse um bring more communities into it you you spoke earlier about a um a single mum who's holding down two jobs and uh who's got a couple of kids and she's managing to do the marathon those are incredible stories and we need to make more of them yeah i agree those are the stories i think that for those people who go i'd rather you than me mates um why would i do a marathon i ain't got time for that i think those are the

stories that will inspire more and more people, I guess, from more and more diverse backgrounds as well. I mean, what's that like for the marathon? Do you have a flavour of, obviously, London is an incredibly diverse city. Running, I think, in the past might have been seen by some, Running, I think in the past, might have been seen by some, which is quite ironic given if we look at who's dominating, you know, running, whether it's sprinting or long distance running in the world in terms of which countries they come from. white middle class sport running is that something that the marathon had to contend with is that something you've you've actively had to go and go no we need to get more diversity or is that something you've always managed to attract so mass participation sports events you're absolutely right generally are middle class and more white and do we need to do something about it? Yes. And that actually is one of the huge things that we're trying to change at the moment. How can you genuinely make a sport that is incredibly accessible in the sense that you can do it from your front door? Most people own a pair of trainers.

Most people own a T-shirt. So actually you can go out in a T-shirt, pair of leggings, running shoes, but how can you genuinely, going back to that single parent, if they're looking after the kids, who else is going to look after the kids? How can you really make it something that truly becomes accessible to the whole of society. And we're on a journey at the moment. And we have some great members of the team who are going out into different communities. And this goes across, it's not just running, it is cycling, it is swimming. I mean, we just put on last weekend, we had an event called Swim Serpentine. Linford Christie has just learned to swim.

And there he was with Linford Christie. We had Minnie Driver. I mean, you couldn't get to amazing celebrities, but Minnie was used to swimming. She swims in the Pacific, she was saying, but Linford's just learned. And there he was, 1992 Olympic gold medalist, having just learned to swim and in the Serpentine. So we need to do that for the London Marathon. And there's a lot of work that we're doing going out into communities to change the circumstances that exist at the moment. It's interesting, you said earlier on something like what you see is so important. The idea that what you see in front of you sort of in many ways defines what you think is possible i know as a parent it's something i'm very aware of particularly when i think about my kids and the opportunities they're

being exposed to comparing it to my own upbringing and then you think about diversity and you know yes my dad was a doctor so um i so there was certain privileges afforded through that. But we were an immigrant family to the UK. And if I think about my upbringing, one of the reasons I'm so drawn to nature now is because nature didn't play a part of my childhood. You know, mum and dad came from India here to give their family a better life. It was about do well at school. That's how you get ahead. That's how you get a secure job and you can look after your family. There was no talk about getting out of nature to relax and for your mental health. There was no talk of going for a run at the weekend or I didn't see my mom and dad's go running or putting their running gear on so

it sounds so almost trivial almost trite saying it like this but it just didn't really feature for me so in some ways you you don't feel those events are for you yeah yeah because you don't see it around you exactly and if i compare that to my kids of course they're seeing us do parkrun they're going to see daddy do a marathon and so hopefully their idea of what's normal is going to be completely different so you say your team's working on this is it is it working things changing? Do you know any of these diversity splits at all? Yeah, I do. I do know an awful lot of statistics on it. And London is the most

incredible city in terms of diversity, which is 40%. And this is the last census, 2011. The new census for 2021 hasn't come out. London had about a 41% ethnic community diversity in terms of the London Marathon. Where do we sit at the moment? Around about 10%. Now that's wrong. So what are we doing? We started an event called the Vitality Big Half. And that is actually, it has real targets in terms of community entries, going into running crews, going into different groups and inspiring activity. Because going back to this bit, if you do not see it, you do not believe it. And, you know, I know I come from unbelievable privilege, right? Unbelievable privilege. And what actually motivates me is to take that privilege

and do something positive with it and that's what the london marathon can do i had an incredible meeting last week with a school art global academy in southwark and the teachers there, the commitment that they had to the kids who in lockdown, so few of them had computers to be able to have online learning. They didn't have a table where they lived, right? The only table they had is the desk at the school. And they were recounting to me the trauma of the mental health that is now happening for school kids that had no issues before from the last 18 months whereas the ones that had issue it's become off the scale and yet through sport through activity through helping people to control some part of their life through sport if we can make it accessible it will help and we have to change society and make it more equal and we have to change the london marathon to be more inclusive

yeah that would be amazing and it is anything at all i can do to help with that you doing it is helping i mean um uh your heritage um as you said you're a tall man i don't know how tall you are i'm gonna guess about six four six six and a half six six not wow um uh not the typical marathon runner's height not the typical no absolutely not uh yes that's definitely not i think they say the ideal marathon runners how it's about about a foot smaller than you for the idea um but um and again i think this is about partnerships how can we genuinely break down these barriers and you know go back to what the London Marathon was in 1981. Less than 5% of the finishers were women. Now it's 45%. It will soon be 50%. It has a power to help change society.

And we need to use that privilege to kickstart a really important part of, again, kickstart a really important part of, again, bringing humanity together. One of the things that impressed me most about you, Hugh, when researching this conversation was your passion, but also your incredible, I think, humility because you say yeah you may have had a privileged start in life but you're also very open about where the marathon currently is and where you want it to get to and whether you admire and respect that because it'd be easy to i think to hide from that and not be so open about that. But I think it's really powerful because, you know, nothing is born perfect.

Everything requires work. On a human level, no change ever occurs until there's awareness we need to be honest we need to have self-awareness and only then can we take the steps to actually make change and it's no different from an organization like yours that without the honesty and self-awareness there's no way you can change and make it more diverse but what would your dream be i guess where you know in 2021 now let's fast forward to 2030 what would you like to see for the london marathon at the end of the decade uh look it's a great question we and and i'm very sort of data focused and um

uh so what do i want to see by 2030 so i have um and this is what the team so firstly a vision for a kids event the day before the marathon with 50 000 school kids running the last 2.6 miles of the marathon, where every school kid is getting paid for coming to the marathon. And that money is going towards computers or sports equipment for their schools. And that these schools are, so kids are being rewarded for running that 2.6, not having to pay anything, they're actually getting rewarded for doing it. And I want to see that the marathon has helped this happen in cities around Great Britain. And that the London Marathon, we already as a team have an incredible head of schools,

a guy called Ben Cooper, who is trying to get the Daily Mile in London schools. And I believe we should be getting that happening in every school in Britain, that our kids are having that 15 minutes of exercise every single day. And, um, you know, you take your kids to park run. I take my kids to park run, but again, that's a privilege that we have and we are able to do. Um, uh, we, we need to get, you know, we, there's some terrible statistics. One in 10 of our school kids go into primary school obese. One in five come out obese.

So whatever's going on with the education system, whatever is going on with the health of our nation, we are going, walking into a time bomb of ill health of bad mental health of bad physical health and if we can together and thank you for saying you would like to help us on the journey because i will come back to that i promise you we together, if we really work, we need to get government to start going. It is not acceptable that that's how society has allowed to happen. We need to make some positive change. And yeah, what do I want to see a london marathon that truly represents london's amazing or britain's amazing diversity because it is not just about london it really isn't this is britain's marathon

it is the world's marathon but we need to really inspire all communities to get involved it's pretty inspiring thinking about that and I guess by articulating it and by putting it out there, it opens up the possibility for actually that to happen. I mean, I'm an optimist, although it's hard sometimes to maintain that optimism. I would like to think that that is possible when you have a good team, a great desire, a great focus, a great goal, like a clear goal, what you're aiming for. Just to sort of go to a slightly different area. family, yourself and your dad have been involved with two of the most important athletic feats in human history. So Roger Bannister running the four minute mile, showing people for the very first time that a human being can complete a mile in under four minutes. Your dad was one of the pacers. And you have been involved as well, haven't you?

I think with your team in Eliud Kipchoge's successful attempt to break two hours. So talk to me a little bit about that. What can we learn from you Roger Bannisters, from your Eliud kipchoge's who are smashing through previously thought limits on human potential oh i think we can learn an enormous amount from each of them in different ways and i mean just yes we're talking about running but i mean

just bring in emma raducanu and what she did um in the u.s open um with such joy on her face um and such positivity and um sort of this bit where elliott talked about no human is limited and um that's what you when you go back to, to Roger Bannister, it was deemed to be physiologically impossible for someone to run under four minutes for a mile back in 19, back in, in it for nine years, between 1945 to 1954, it had been that's 10 years. So 1946 to 1954, it had been deemed physiologically impossible to run under four minutes for a mile. And there he was training as a doctor. Now, so he was training as a junior doctor and you will know firsthand how difficult that is. And he goes out and does something that

is said to be physiologically impossible. And it goes back to, he managed to fit that in. And what did he do? He had a great coach. He surrounded himself with other people, Chris Chataway, my dad, and my dad, you know, that probably inspired him to become a gold medalist. was chris chataway uh was a world record holder he in in 1950 um i mean bizarrely actually he was the first sports personality of the year chris chataway in the year that roger bannister won the uh broke the four minute mile record one of the broke four minutes the mile he uh um chris chataway because he beat a runner called vladimir kutz at white city stadium 100000 people watching and live on TV,

whereas Roger, no one was on TV. It was about 8,000 people at a track. But I digress. I think Roger just showed what you can do with your life. He was just the most incredible man. And the four-minute mile was a small part of what he did. And Elliot has this unbelievable zen-like quality. And what he says, and when he says it, there are just some absolute nuggets. And what he did, yeah, we were part the team um and as you say the london marathon team of 80 people who are passionate about trying to help people to be the best they can be whether it's the everyday athlete or the absolute you know goat the greatest of all time elid kipchoge and it was an incredible experience to be part of that team um so Dave Brailsford led um the team um Valentin Trau who is Elliot's

manager and myself was sort of a leadership team and then you had these incredible teams operating to find paces to look at the new formation, to, you know, go into wind tunnels. You had Ben Ainslie racing as part of it, looking at the whole wind. You had our operational team getting the course, you know, resurfacing it in places, changing the banking on a roundabout. I mean, it was just the level of detail that was gone into the nutrition. You know, every water bottle that Elliot drank out of was discarded, picked up, and then weighed afterwards. So they knew exactly the amount of liquid that he was taking in his body. If you look very closely, there's a great film out at the moment. If you look very closely,

actually one of the first things they do when he finishes crosses the line jumps on a scale because they were weighing him afterwards the level of detail um i just saw an early copy of the film incredible isn't it yeah i think everyone should watch it yeah yeah so yeah it's it's look it's a an honor to be part of that sort of thing um it doesn't come around too often um and yeah i think that whole family connection it was was lovely for me to um just be part of the team that that helped elliott show the world what he said which was no human is limited i guess that's the point of the London Marathon, isn't it? You just mentioned it's about helping every single person be the best that they can be. So Elliot Kipchoge breaks two hours with this incredible team of help, looking at all the kind of small margins everywhere. Okay, great. That allowed him to be the best that

he can be. But that's maybe not relevant for me or for you or for the single mum or for the busy executive or for the school teacher, for the school cook, the cleaner, right? Their ceiling or their potential is different, not better, not worse, just different. And that's this overriding message I'm getting through from you, Hugh, which has given me tingles because I haven't experienced it yet. I'm days away from going on that part of my journey for the first time. I know I'm going to learn about myself. But like you, I believe that everyone has got their own marathon. For some people, their local park run is their version of a marathon, or I guess even their version of a two-hour marathon, right? For someone, depending on your physical health,

just getting around the 5k park run at your local park, that may be your version of a marathon, off a marathon, but it speaks to this idea that we all have unlimited potential and we all need help to be the best versions of ourselves. And that is it. It is about help. It's trying to get help. It's being open to help. And we will only ever be the best we can be if we get help. And it doesn't matter whether you're really a Kipchoge. It doesn't matter whether you're the single parent. Someone's got to look after your kids when you're not there. So someone's got to help you. And it's trying to work out what you can control.

It's trying to work out what you want to do. And yeah, it's not about measuring yourself against these gods of the sport. It's just about doing it for yourself and having it in your heart, um, that you just want to achieve something that will be positive, that will build your self-esteem because too much of society just takes away people's self-esteem and the marathon can really, really help build it. And Bobby said it so perfectly in that text at the start about about the feeling which is just so incredibly positive only a few days to go for me hugh any advice for me before the big events uh i think um don't do anything new is the is the first So, you know, you've been on the journey for 18 months. I always say to people, if you're used to having a beer beforehand or a wine or whatever you do beforehand, before you run or that's what you do, just do that just because otherwise you start

worrying. You know, you'll be playing all the things through in your head about what's going to go on the next day. So firstly, just try and do what you're used to doing that's the number one thing um try not to get carried away at the start um you know you'll have the crowd you'll have people i always remember um uh my wife uh i wrote a training program for her um and she was doing it i think this was 2009 before we had our first child and she'd done her best half marathon and she wanted to put this pressure of a time on her and i said fine and sort of wrote her sort of said we'll pace it this way um i only found out she had honestly she said it was one of the this is gonna she's now gonna put your listeners off she said it was one of the worst

experiences of her life um but um she only found out about three months later um that she basically ran a pb for the first eight miles so she just got so carried away by the crowd and what was going on it's a bit downhill it's like so relax um uh don't do anything new and absolutely put your name on on your vest on your t-shirt um you'll want your name changed by the end of it i promise you because you'll be sick of hearing it um but um i have heard i have heard that uh don't go off too fast. Yeah. I've heard, in fact, Helen said to me many times, whether it was a London Marathon or any other event,

biggest mistake, you get carried away with the adrenaline, and then you start going out too fast, and you pay for it later. You do. So thank you for that advice. Yeah. Hugh, I've got to say, I really enjoyed this conversation. I really appreciate you making the journey up to the studio. I think what you and your team are doing

is absolutely incredible. I'm so delighted that I'm going to join that journey of other fellow London marathoners, whether people who compete or they watch or they give to charity. The podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our life. Have you got any final words of wisdom for people listening to the show? Wow. I think just trying to have fun in life generally. You feel better when you're smiling. You feel more positive when you're smiling. And enter that ballot.

It'll open on the 2nd of October, the day before the marathon. Even though if you think you can't, I promise you, you can. And I just want to thank you so much for inviting me here. I think what you're doing in terms of just promoting health and, you know, I love you're trying trying different things the nasal breathing um the barefoot running i know you've got the vivo shoes on but uh you're experimenting with with with different different parts of it and doing it in in a natural way um and i think that everyone should just do it for themselves and um And then one last thing I just want to say, because you made a commitment on air with Chris Evans that got you here. You said you would help us in increasing the diversity of the London Marathon.

And Rangan, I would just so like you to help us to do that. We will be on that journey together. And I'd just love to hear your story afterwards and see how it felt for you. But thank you so much for inviting me here. My pleasure, for sure. I'd love to do everything I can help to improve the pickup and the diversity.

And no doubt this will not be the last time we speak on the podcast together. But I guess for now, I'll see you on the start line. So what did you think? Did you enjoy listening? Do you feel inspired? Are you going to put your name down in the ballot? Go on. If you're not sure, if you're umming and ahhing, what have you got to lose? If you don't put your name down, what have you got to lose? If you don't put your name down, you ain't going to get in. If you do and you get a place and you've got a

decision to make, what are you going to do? How will you fit it in? I've got to be honest, as you've already heard me say, simply saying yes last year to doing the London Marathon has already transformed so many aspects of my life, irrespective of what actually happens in the event this weekend. So I'd encourage you, if you're not sure, give it a go, pop your name down. It opens this weekend. It's only open for a few days. See what happens. Or maybe it's not a marathon. Maybe it's something else. Maybe the conversations inspired you to step a little bit outside your own comfort zone. Whatever it is, please let me, Hugh, the London Marathon, let us know on social media what you thought, what your learnings were, what you might

challenge yourself to do next year. Honestly, we would all love to hear. Before we finish today, before you take off, I really do want to let you know about Friday Five. It's my weekly newsletter. It contains five short doses of positivity to get you ready for each weekend. It can be a practical tip for your health, a book or article that I've been reading,

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