Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #220 Mel Robbins on How To Take Control of Your Life With One Simple Habit

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

CAUTION: This podcast episode contains swearing. Mel Robbins is one of the most sort after motivational speakers in the world. Her TED talk has been viewed almost 27 million times and she's also the best-selling author of several books, including her latest one, The High Five Habit: Take Control of Your Life With One Simple Habit. In today's conversation, Mel explains that all of us know what we need to do for the best in any given situation but it’s acting on that knowledge that’s hard. It’s so easy to be impulsive or fall into old habits. And I think this is where Mel really comes into her own. Her approach is all about practical, real life advice that busy people with busy lives can easily implement. A prime example is something that Mel calls the five second rule. This is a rule that stops negative thinking in its tracks, and immediately breaks the feedback loop of procrastination and moves us into taking action. It changes a bias of thinking into a bias of action, giving you the confidence to try when you're full of doubt. In fact, it's so simple that my 11 year old son has already seen its benefits in his own life over the past few weeks. We also talk about The High Five Habit (which is the title of Mel’s new book) - this is the idea that by simply giving yourself a high five in the mirror each morning, you can experience transformative effects in your life. This simple exercise is about recognizing yourself and asking yourself what the person looking back at you in the mirror really needs and by doing so, Mel explains that you are retraining your brains neural pathways and convincing your subconscious that you are someone who is worthy of celebration. This really is a wide ranging and in-depth conversation. There is something quite unique about the connection that Mel has with her audience and the way she delivers her message. I think a lot of it comes down to her raw honesty, and the fact that all of her methods are borne out of her own lived experience. She's been there and she is very happy to share her struggles, her insecurities and her battles. I certainly got a lot out of this conversation and I think you will as well. Thanks to our sponsors:   https://www.calm.com/livemore   https://vivobarefoot.com/livemore   http://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore   Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/220   Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/3oAKmxi. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Follow me on https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

I'm on a mission to get every human being in the world to add one simple thing to their morning routine. I know that this takes five days to work. Five days before you have an enormous breakthrough in how you see and relate to yourself. It's simple and it works. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. Hello, how are you doing? I hope you are having a good week wherever you are in the world. Here in the UK, it has been getting colder, it has been getting darker, but my hope is that this conversation brightens up your day, no matter where you are, because my guest is the one and only Mel Robbins. Now, I posted a photo

of Mel in my studio just a few weeks ago, and I was overwhelmed by the response. So many of you are huge fans of Mel and we're really, really excited that she was coming on to my show. So for those of you who don't know Mel, Mel is a former lawyer. She's one of the most sought after motivational speakers in the world. Her TEDx talk has been viewed almost 30 million times. And she's also the best selling author of several books, including her latest one, The High Five Habit. Take control of your life with one simple habit. In today's conversation, Mel explains that all of us know what we need to do for the best in any given situation,

but it's acting on that knowledge that's often so hard. It's so easy to be impulsive or to fall into old habits. And I think this is where Mel really comes into her own. Her approach is all about practical, real-life advice that busy people with busy lives can easily implement. A prime example is something that Mel calls the five-second rule. This is a rule that stops negative thinking in its tracks and immediately breaks the feedback loop of procrastination and moves us into taking action. For many people, including a brand new team member of mine, it has been transformative. It changes a bias of thinking into a bias of action, giving you the confidence to try when you're full of doubt. In fact, it's so simple that my 11-year-old

son has already seen its benefits in his own life over the past few weeks. We also talk about the high-five habit, which of course is the title of Mel's brand new book. The idea that by simply giving yourself a high-five in the mirror each morning, you can experience transformative effects in your life. This simple exercise is about recognizing yourself and asking yourself what the person looking back at you in the mirror really needs. And by doing so, Mel explains that you are retraining your brain's neural pathways and convincing your subconscious that you are someone who is worthy of celebration. This really is a wide-ranging and in-depth conversation. I was delighted that Mel made the trip up to my studio in person. And I really think there is something quite unique about Mel,

the way she delivers her message, the connection she has with her audience. I think a lot of it comes down to her raw honesty and the fact that all of her methods are born out of her own lived experience. She's been there and she is very happy to share her struggles, her insecurities and her battles. I really do think this is a special conversation. There were times within it that I think we both forgot there was a microphone there recording what we were saying. I certainly got a lot out of this conversation. There were times within it that I think we both forgot there was a microphone there recording what we were saying. I certainly got a lot out of this conversation. I think you will as well. And now, my conversation with Mel Robbins. You have been helping probably millions of people around the planet for many, many years now. What do you think is the main reason why people, despite knowing what they should be doing,

struggle? They procrastinate. They have these negative thoughts that get in the way of them taking action. What do you think the reason is? Well, I think knowing what to do is really simple. I'm serious. In any area of your life where you feel stuck, you know what you need to do to move the needle, to improve the situation at work, to change your career, to improve your health, to make yourself happier, to work on your marriage. The information is everywhere. And in fact, if you're listening to me right now and you go, Mel Robbins, you are wrong. I have no idea what to do. I just know I'm stuck. Actually, you know what to do. Go to Google and type in, I hate my job, and you will get hundreds of millions of links. You will probably find a hundred thousand videos that are made by people who

have been stuck in their jobs, who will walk you through a step-by-step process that you could take order to change. The what is easy. The issue is how. How do you make yourself take actions when you're afraid, when you're scared, when you're overwhelmed? How do you break bad habits? How do you break the negative thinking that is causing you to feel paralyzed? See, the problem for most of us is we think about what we need to do, but thinking won't change your life. The only way you're going to change your life or change your career or change your health is to take action. And so the reason why so many people get stopped by procrastination and stopped by fear and stopped by anxiety is because they never get past the part of just thinking about it. And I believe that we all have a habit that I call the habit of hesitation.

And in psychology, psychologists and researchers say there's basically two types of people, right? There's people that have a bias towards action. And those are the kinds of folks that when inspiration strikes or when confidence strikes or when courage strikes or when opportunity strikes, they tend to lean toward it and to take action. And based on research, those folks tend to be happier, healthier, more successful, more fulfilled in life. And then there's the rest of us. And those of us that have what psychologists call a bias towards thinking, which means in a moment of uncertainty, a moment of opportunity, a moment where you need courage or confidence, instead of leaning toward it, you lean away from it and you start thinking, what should I do? And it's that habit of hesitating in moments of change that is

keeping you stuck. We call it procrastination. We call it overthinking. We call it a lot of things, but it's just a habit of pausing. And then you trip into patterns of thinking and patterns of behavior that have been holding you back for years. I mean, people say information is power. And based on what you're saying there, and I actually agree with this, information is not everything, is it? We can have the information, we can have the knowledge. Knowledge is power. It is, but it's not everything, is it? You can have the knowledge and not take action. I know a lot of really smart people that are miserable. Yeah. I know a ton of people that do nothing but read self-help books or watch videos on YouTube

about inspiration and do nothing. The reason why is they gather information as a way to feel like you're working on something. Learning is a really important thing to do. Understanding, becoming more self-aware, it's critical to you improving your life. It's critical to you improving your life. It's critical to you being happier and more fulfilled. If you don't understand yourself and you don't understand the patterns of thinking and the patterns of behavior that are keeping you stuck, you'll never be able to break them and replace them. But you can get yourself comfortable with learning and duping yourself into thinking that somehow being smarter about what you need

to do to be healthy will make you healthy. That's not true. Just like reading about launching a business doesn't launch a business. And so, you know, one of the other things that I find to be really interesting, and I think this is one of the reasons why people really resonate with a lot of what I have to say. I don't know if it's the dyslexia, the ADHD, what it is. But I can't remember a lot of information in terms of a list. So if I'm trying to get healthy and you give me 11 things to do, I will do none of them. you give me 11 things to do, I will do none of them. If you give me one simple thing that I can grab onto, I will likely try it. And I think a lot of times what happens for folks is, and I know it certainly has happened for me, is that even if the information is empowering, if it feels complicated,

I'm not going to do it. Yeah. That's the beauty or one of the beauties, I'd say, of your approach, whether it's in your, you know, you've written multiple books, but the one before this, and including this one, The High Five Habits, you know, the subtitle, I think, says it all. Take control of your life with one simple habit. simple habit. And as you talk, Mel, I really, I can't tell you how much I connect with what you're saying, because it's a, it's very similar to the approach I've tried to take with patients for over 20 years now is keep it simple. You know, what is that one keystone habit that's going to unlock the door to all those other habits? Before we get into the new book, I have a new team member. And she's a huge fan of yours. And last night, I said to her, hey, so I've got Mel coming to the studio. She was losing it with excitement. And she said, Mel Robbins changed my life. If it wasn't for Mel, I'd still be in a job that was

stressing me out. So I couldn't stand anymore. If it wasn't for Mel, I'd still be on antidepressants. If it wasn't for Mel's 5-4-3-2-1 rule, I wouldn't have pressed send on the application to join your team, Rangan. And she only joined a few weeks ago. And that just really hit me at how profound and how life-changing your work is, because this is one individual who has shared how it's helped her health. It's helped her, well, it's helped her physical health, her mental wellbeing, and it's helped her to get a job, which as she said to me last night, has pushed her out of her comfort zone that she knew she could do, but probably wouldn't have had the courage to go for. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. And there's a couple of things that I want to say about that. That story does a beautiful job of explaining my mission in the world. And that is to uncover simple tools that anybody can use to help them make changes in their life.

And so the reason why, what's her name? Her name's Steph. So the reason why Steph was so excited, and I hear it every day, like one of the coolest things about being on YouTube and being on social media and putting work out and speaking on stages around the world is when you have a super simple idea, it's so sticky that anybody can share it. It sounds kind of stupid that count backwards. Okay. You know, you're not going to forget that because it sounds kind of dumb. And the idea itself is so simple and so sticky. Anybody can try it and anybody can share it. And oftentimes people don't even know my name. They're like,

oh my gosh, you're the five lady or Robin. They don't even like, they've been watching me. And I love that because for me, it's about the tools. And in Steph's case, what's super interesting about her excitement, because I literally cannot go through a day at this point and have somebody not walk up to me and say, you changed my life. And I always say the exact same thing when somebody tells me that. I say, thank you so much for telling me. I appreciate you acknowledging me and following me. But you deserve the credit because you did the work. I just gave you a tool that I happened to discover that helps you move from thinking to doing.

So she moved herself from thinking about how much she hated her job to 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, stopping the thinking by counting backwards and pushing herself to move. She moved herself from thinking about applying for the dream job of yours and 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, about applying for the dream job of yours and 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, hitting send. She moved herself from thinking about going to the gym to 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, cutting the procrastination loop in half and then replacing it with a push to take action. And so what's so elegant and simple and empowering about the five-second rule or the high-five habit or all the other simplistic stuff that I tend to share with the world, because that's the stuff that works for me, is that these are all tools that cut through the bullshit that's holding you back. And it just so happens that your nerdy friend Mel

has done all the research to be able to explain to you why science and research and decades of psychological academic work actually is encapsulated by counting backwards 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, or in this particular new brain hack, the high five habit, how simply high fiving the human being you see in the mirror every single morning as part of your morning routine will build the habit of self-empowerment, self-respect, self-worth, self-encouragement, self-love. This is powerful stuff. And it sounds dumb. And here's the other thing. And you and I were just talking about this. I think that life is so freaking overwhelming. Yeah. And when your problems seem overwhelming or when that dream job seems impossibly far away,

we all make this fundamental mistake of believing that because your problems are so big, the solution must be big. Yeah. problems are so big, the solution must be big. Or because the dream is so far away that the way that you're going to get there is so enormous. And the fact is, it's the exact opposite, the exact opposite, everybody. That when your problems are enormous, it is the littlest thing that moves you in a different direction and starts to chip away at it. When your dream is enormous, it's the littlest thing that gets you moving. And when you understand that you can get started towards something by doing the smallest little thing, and it'll crack open something inside you and let some light back in, that's powerful. One of the reasons I think so many people around the world resonate with you is

because you have a real knack at making people feel that you get them, you get their life. And you share a lot of that in the new book, The High Five Habit, you share a lot of your own struggles where things didn't quite go as well as you wanted them to on multiple occasions. And when I hear you say that people come up to you on a daily basis, I'm interested in how do you really take that feedback? And does the Mel Robbins of 2021 take it in a different way from the Mel Robbins of, let's say, 2011? Because I get this real impression that you have evolved. You are taking your readers with you. You've spoken about, and we'll get to this, you've spoken about guilt, about shame, insecurity, jealousy, all these things. That's the nice stuff. That's the nice stuff. Oh, for crying out loud. When are we going to talk about the cheating and

the anxiety attacks and the quitting jobs during a panic or the homesickness or the, I mean, drinking myself into a ground, anxiety, postpartum depression. I mean, I have just had a roller. I was a very high functioning, screwed up human being. Yeah. I think there's a lot of them around. I think most people are. Like, I mean, you're either, I think we're all sort of like finding our way back home to ourselves.

So as you felt, I guess, more secure in who you are in your skin. Because the reason I'm asking on this, I think a lot of people, myself included, have struggled to take praise in the past. And you say all kinds of things to sort of, you know, battle it off or just, you know, you take it, but you feel a bit uncomfortable maybe with that praise. And I'm just interested on a personal level. Yeah. How has that been for you? Well, um, was it hard at times? I'll tell you what, it's hard. It's hard when I'm with a friend or when I'm with, um, like a family member. And, um, I know that it's annoying to somebody else I know that it's annoying to somebody else because they see it sort of in the lane of celebrity and it's not a celebrity experience at all. I have no interest in being famous.

I have no interest in being considered a celebrity. I personally don't consider myself a celebrity so much so that up until four months ago, my freaking home address was on my LinkedIn account. That's how dumb I was about the kind of reach that I have. And so I love those moments and I'll tell you why. I don't think those moments are about me at all. I see a moment like meeting somebody like Steph, who walks up and says, oh my gosh, holy cow, I can't believe you're in London. Because of you, I've got this new job. And because of you, I stuck to my diet or because of you, I got control of my anxiety. And I'm like, thank you. Actually, you deserve the credit. Don't give me the credit. I just shared with you a couple tools that worked for me. You need to keep the credit because you're the one that did the work. And so every person like

Steph that comes up to me or that writes to me or that messages me or that puts something in the comments, to me, that is evidence that the work that I'm doing in putting up a YouTube video is having a real impact on people's lives around the world. I'll tell you a story where it was a real turning point for me. And so it's like this incredible validation that is the source of my drive. And it's why I am maniacal about what the thumbnail looks like on YouTube. I'm maniacal about what we're putting up on Instagram. There is not a caption that goes out that I don't write. And we put out 19 pieces of content a day. There is not a thing that gets posted that I have not personally signed off on, that I haven't looked at the edit, that I haven't picked the music, that I haven't like literally done everything. I haven't done everything, but I take so much care and intention in what we put out and here's why.

So we were on vacation in Iceland as a family for my dad's, I think it was his 75th birthday. And we were three hours outside of Reykjavik. And we stopped at a little ranger station outside of a national park to walk in and go to the bathroom and to grab a cup of coffee before we drove into this national park to go hiking in the middle of nowhere. And I am wearing a parka with a hood up. I have a hat on, a little beanie. I have my glasses on and my coat zipped up like this. And we go walking into the ranger station. And my husband, Chris says, Hey Mel, you want a cup of coffee? And I say, Oh yeah, I'd love one. Um, I'll, I'll take it with cream and sugar. And the ranger, a woman in her mid forties, all of a sudden looks up and says, Mel Robbins, is that you? She didn't even see me.

She heard my voice. And I turned and she goes, and I'm like, hi, oh my gosh. Take my hood off. How are you? What's your name? And she got so overcome. And she said, I have to tell you, I have to tell you, you got me through an abusive marriage. Your videos made me feel like I would be okay if I left responsible for her changing her life. I feel like I'm a human being that has had a lot of struggles. And because I've met so many other human beings that are trying to change their lives, I understand the patterns. I understand the holes we dig for ourselves and we fall into. I understand all this because it's both a lived experience and because I've literally talked to, coached, helped, inspired so many just normal, real people going through stuff. And I also happen to be a trained crisis intervention counselor who worked a domestic violence hotline for four years. I happen to have been a public defender that did

criminal defense work for people who could not afford attorneys. And there's tons of mental health services and addiction counseling and training that goes along with that. And so when I hear that there is a woman in an abusive relationship in the middle of nowhere in Iceland, who is watching YouTube videos as a way to have a lifeline, to be able to find the courage to face the things going on in her life and find the strength within herself to be able to take those actions and to hold on to the hope that things are going to be better if she does, that to me, like we're done here. If I were to die on the plane crash home, I have lived an extraordinary

life because I have helped somebody. And so that experience made me go, whoa, this is so much bigger than a book, than a video. Like I put so much intention into what we put out because I know there is a human being on the other end of it. Put it there. High five. Yeah. I mean, that's such a powerful story. And I think about that, Mel, and I think... Well, your podcast does the same thing. You take your expertise, your intellectual curiosity, your wisdom, your humanity, and you produce a show where you're putting this out. for you in terms of going from treating patients in a one-on-one capacity and their families to spreading life-saving, life-changing information, knowledge, empowerment stories to help people. I resonate with a lot of what you've been saying. It's the most incredible journey. It's the most incredible feeling. It's made me really question what does it mean for me to be a medical doctor in 2021, 2022? You know, what does it really mean? You know, medicine, like law, I'm sure, is a very sort of conformist profession.

And I know like in a conventional, let's say national health service, primary care clinic, I can probably see 40 patients in a day, 10 minute intervals, which is suboptimal, but we'll leave that for another, another conversation. This show, my books, you know, all the stuff like you do, you know, we're reaching with the show, if you include YouTube, close to a million people a week, right? And I get drowned in messages on Instagram or private messages or letters. And it's so touching because you realize actually every time you put something out, it is reaching a human. They're hearing it, they're changing the perspective on their life and it's impacting, yes, their health or their relationships. And it's incredible. And

I think what a great age to be alive in because we've now got these mediums where we can do that. I mean, what I hear about you, Mel, which I really love, is that so far we've talked about how you've helped a lady who's struggling with domestic violence. We talked about one of my team members who you've helped leave a job she wasn't happy in. You've helped change her health and get her off medication, yet you're not a doctor. not a doctor. And I find that fantastic because I think the majority of what we see now as medical doctors, I think 80 to 90% is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles, how we're living and we're stressing out or we're overworking and we get anxious thoughts and we're not, you know, this is what's driving our real health. So the question then for you is, as you say, you're not a trained, I guess,

therapist or medical doctor, yet you're helping people with their mental, physical and emotional health. Why do you think that is? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, something that is really important, especially at this time of year. It also contains prebiotics and digestive enzymes that help support your gut health. All of this goodness comes in one

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office or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. Well, you know, I think that there's a couple things. One is I do have expertise, because my expertise comes from lived experience and from sitting in a therapist chair getting therapy for five to 10 years off and on. It comes from taking medication for 25 years. It doesn't mean I can prescribe it, but it means my life has been saved by it. It comes from studying this stuff, because what happens when you invent something like the five-second rule and perfect strangers start to tell you that they're counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, just like they saw you doing on YouTube, Mel. And it's impacting major issues in their life

from losing a hundred plus pounds to staying sober to... We now have 110 people who have stopped themselves from attempting suicide. For me personally, I feel a responsibility to understand why something like that works. And then when somebody invites you to come to Starbucks or JP Morgan because they've seen your videos and they want you to come talk about how the five-second rule can help a company change its culture or help a company change or help people who work somewhere be less stressed or more courageous. You better be able to show up and explain exactly why counting backwards, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, can be proven using science and studies and case studies and the examples of real life people around the world.

What was interesting is when I invented the five second rule and this little technique, I was simply a woman who was 40 years old with three kids under the age of 10 who was unemployed, $800,000 in debt because my husband and his best friend went into the restaurant business. It was fabulous for a while. And then it was the restaurant business. And like complete morons, we had secured everything with everything we owned. And so when the things get bad in 2008 and the market turns and the housing crisis happens and the restaurants start to go under, the liens hit our house. We lost everything. I mean, we didn't go bankrupt. I mean, just by the grace of God, I had such crushing anxiety despite the Zoloft. I couldn't get out of bed. And so the five second rule, whether you call it an

act of desperation or divine intervention, I think it's divine intervention because it sounds stupid. I mean, the idea was simply when I wake up, that anxiety is so dark and I would lay in the bed and I would stare at the ceiling and I would think we're going to lose the house and I'm a failure and I hate my husband and nobody can find out and what am I going to do? And just like, how did my life end up like this? And just on and on and on and on. And the more I thought, the deeper the hole was. I had this idea that, God, maybe if I move fast enough, when the alarm rang, if I got out of the bed fast enough, maybe I'd beat the anxiety. Maybe I wouldn't be in the bed. So I decided I'd launch myself out of bed like a rocket. That's where the counting backwards came. Little did I know that when you count backwards,

you interrupt the habit loops in your basal ganglia and you draw your focus to your prefrontal cortex, little did I know this would become one of the most powerful starting rituals in habit research on the planet. Little did I know that this little brain hack is a form of metacognition that allows you to interrupt any thinking or behavior pattern and give you a moment of what psychologists call objectivity so you can choose what you do next. And so, you know, you see that quote all over Instagram, right? And all over social media, you know, it's not what happens. It's, you know, how you respond and that's where your power is. But if you're a person and life is overwhelming and life is happening, you're like,

life is not happening for me. Fuck off. Like, what mean it's choose how I respond? I don't even know, I can't even get out of bed. And so the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 becomes a how. It's the tool you need to cut through the noise and the fear and the anxiety and grab just a moment where you can take control. And that's why it works. That's why therapists use it around the world. That's why it works with reframing triggers associated with PCSD. I mean, it's just an unbelievable, unbelievable. It is such a great tool. In fact, not only does Steph use it, who we've already mentioned, I was telling my son about it last night. He's only 11. And yeah, I often talk to the kids about the podcast. I said, Daddy, who are you talking to tomorrow? I said, well, I'm talking to someone called Mel Robbins. And then, you know, I got him to go and do high five in the mirror. I'll tell you about that a

little bit later. But, and then I told him about this 5-4-3-2-1 rule. And this morning over breakfast, he says, Daddy, it actually works. I was really tired. And you had to get it for school. So I said, 5-4-3-2-1, got out of bed. 5, four, three, two, one, put my school uniform on. And I was like, this is so cool. It's really cool. Yeah, but it's great. Adults use it. Grown, responsible adults, young kids are using it as well. You can use it in any language, any age, any education, any situation where you're thinking about what you need to do and you've got to five, four, three, two, one, push yourself to do it. And I love that you shared it with him.

I love also, this is the other thing that I love about the stuff that whatever I've created is that your son can now stick it in his back pocket. And if he's sitting in class and he wants to share, but he starts to doubt himself, five, four, three, two, one. Like what he's doing is he's now breaking the habit and the bias of thinking. And he's moving across that spectrum toward having a bias of action. And of course, what we know about confidence is that confidence does not begin with believing in yourself. Confidence begins with the willingness to try. And so the five second rule is so powerful for developing confidence because it's a tool you use to push yourself to try when you're full of doubt. And when you try and you raise your hand

in class, or you speak up more at work, or you you ask for the raise or you hit send on the email, when you try, you might fail, but you gain a little competency. And that competency makes you a little bit more willing to try next time. And so that's where this competence-competency habit loop comes in. And the linchpin to it is now you've got a tool, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, to push yourself to say, all right, I'm in. I'm going to try. I'm going to better myself. It is just so simple yet so effective.

And I love the way you come up with these things. And your expertise initially comes from your lived experience, right? Your struggles. How do I overcome this? Oh, that didn't work. That's a bit bad. Oh, man, this tool really works. Okay, let me share it. Oh man, people sharing that back with me. This is working. And then you go and figure out the science, which I really find, I love that. I love that sort of approach. I think I heard someone say once that the word for experience and experiment

in all languages which come from Latin except English is the same. Experience, experiment, it's the same thing. Really? I didn't know that. This is what I've heard. I'm not a linguist who would know that for sure, but I find that really interesting because you are literally creating the evidence through your experience, through sharing it. People are coming back to you. This is not a study in a lab, but it's kind of a study in the real lab of life that works. You know, it's so interesting that we're going here because, you know, I personally do believe in experts and I believe in credentials. I do believe in experts and I believe in credentials.

And I think that it is important that there are controls that, you know, you need to be a medical doctor to prescribe medicine. You know, do I think that there needs to be innovation everywhere? Of course. I'm super excited about all the plant-based medicines. But I also feel like they need some serious controls in place that you can't just, in my opinion, I think it can be terrifying to think of somebody with a lifetime of trauma who is not in the hands of a medical expert when they've been life-changing for trauma, but I worry about people kind of road tripping on this stuff. And so I do believe in expertise and I do believe in making sure that there are studies and that there's safety protocols and that experts are respected. And so I think that's important. But I think what you're

saying is we have come to a point in our society where it is important to expand the categories of what we deem to be expertise. So for example, there is traditional medicine, to be expertise. So for example, there is traditional medicine, right? The MD, my dad happens to be a DO, which when he was a DO, way more kind of poo-pooed on because it's a little bit more holistic in terms of the training, but he's an orthopedic surgeon. And for people in the UK, that's osteopath. Yeah, he's an osteopath who was an orthopedic surgeon in the United States. And now let's take a look at the fact that what clearly needs to happen in the medical field is a way more holistic approach and a focus on the whole person and health rather than treating illness. And there's so many different ways to

treat things rather than just prescription drugs. And so people's expertise in these areas, super important to recognize it in new ways, super important to really make sure it's safe in new ways. And what kind of frustrates me at times is because the two letters after my name are JD, Juris Doctor, I'm a trained lawyer, right? But they're not MD, or they're not MA, or they're not the social work degree. Even though I have been studying this for 10 years, and I have clinicians using what I'm talking about, and I had an entire wing of nurses from an inpatient psychiatric ward in Philadelphia come to my daytime talk show. And they told me, aside from prescription medication, the one tool that they can give somebody when they leave an inpatient commitment for suicidal ideation, severe depression, the one tool that really works is the five-second rule.

Because it's simple.'s simple and somebody in crisis can remember it and it works. And yet nobody recognizes me as an expert in mental health. People will call me a motivational speaker. They'll call me, you know, whatever. She's a this, she's a that. And the fact is I have, you know, with the High Five Habit, that was a year-long research project. We have a study that we've done. It's called the High Five Challenge.

We've had 137,000 people from 91 countries take a five-day challenge online, fully monitored, that we have created. In the last 32 32 days that many people have rolled through this thing. And not one person has reported that they did not experience positive change. Now, is that an academic study? Probably not, but it's good enough for me. And so it's interesting because I often find that, you know, I was really flattered when you invited me on because you are a doctor. Yeah. And it's taken a while for people to realize because I think a lot of people hear five second rule or the high five happen. They're like, oh, God.

And the truth is there is so much freaking research and evidence. There is. And you put that in all your books. And the new one is full of references at the back, full of the evidence. And the point I'm trying to make is you should be seen in the same way as people with the right letters after their name. I'm not saying we don't need experts. We do need experts. But also, we need to broaden out our definition of experts and expertise. And also the point I'm trying to get at is that I think sometimes we outsource expertise so much to others, we sort of lose confidence in our own expertise and our own ability to try some of these tools. I mean, I will be using that 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 rule with my patients now. Like I can already think of four or five people that come to mind straight away. They think, you know what? I think next time I see them, I'm going to mention

this because I think it would really help them. And that's what it's about, right? Because one of the big problems with science is that the way that science is communicated often is very dry to the public. What's the what? Let's say there's a paper that says that this diet or this technique is really good for your mental health. A lot of the time, the way that's communicated with the lay public, it's done in very scientific terms. And the talking down. The talking down. And you're communicating powerful ideas that work in a way that people see, I think people see you as their friend. They think, oh, Mel, that's kind of like- Well, I'm shoulder to shoulder with you. Yes, a thousand percent. So think about it.

That's why they take the advice and that's why they give you this love because they are peers of yours. Yes. And you are their guide and their friend. But by the way, I'm learning just as much from everybody that writes to me as they are from me. Yeah. Because when people share their stories about why they've been struggling

how something worked what didn't work how they tweaked it for example yeah um and i can tell you a story about that with the high five habit how one person's story about the high five habit and their experience with it blew open a whole lane around um sort of shame and judgment and we can come back to it. Well, let's get to that. Well, why don't you explain what is the high five habit? Sure, sure. Because I'd love to hear about those sort of experiences. Yeah. So, you know, in its simplest terms, I'm on a mission to get every human being in the world to add one simple thing to their morning routine.

And it is called the high five habit. And here's what it is. Every morning after you brush your teeth and you get that gunk out of your mouth so you're not spreading that nasty breath everywhere, okay? I want you to take a moment, put your toothbrush down and look at the human being in the mirror. That's not your reflection. That is a human being who needs you. A human being who's beaten down, who feels forgotten, who is so sick and tired of your criticism. And I want you to just stand there and look at them and take a moment because the rest of your day is going to be about everybody else.

And then I don't want you to say a thing. This is the genius of this habit. You can be on your lowest morning, which I was when I, again, divine intervention or stupidity. You can be the judge, right? It was April 2020, and I was having a moment in my life where I just felt overwhelmed by life. I was waking up. The anxiety had come back. I felt like life was unfair.

I had lost my dream job. We were in the middle of the pandemic. I had lost my dream job. We were in the middle of the pandemic. My kids were in a state of huge grief and anger and frustration because university, you know, had closed and, you know, now they're dealing with it. I had a bunch of speed, like all of a sudden my business is imploding. And, you know, don't forget just over 10 years ago, I was in a crisis financially where my husband and I were about to lose every...

We couldn't even pay for groceries. My dad was lending us money. Yeah. And so it was triggering all of that. And I was thinking this, like, what the... I've worked so hard. I'm a good person. Like, how could you be doing this to me?

Like, I don't deserve... Like, just... And you were pretty successful at that point already, right? Oh my God, successful? I was the number one motivational, female motivational speaker in the world. I had a daytime syndicated talk show in the United States. So 175 shows a year, giving advice.

I, you know, had the five second rule book, which was self-published and a huge millions of copies sold. But I think that's the powerful thing about this story. Even with all that success, you were still wracked with self-doubt and anxiety and negative thoughts. Because I hadn't had the biggest breakthrough of my entire life yet. And I had it one morning in April of 2020. You see, the five-second rule is extraordinary, but it doesn't address what I believe is everybody's fundamental issue. And everybody's fundamental issue is that you either hate yourself or you do nothing but judge yourself.

And this habit of relentless self-criticism and relentless self-rejection is the reason why you're unhappy. It's the reason why you're unhappy. It's the reason why you're never satisfied. It's the reason why you can't take a compliment and why you're uncomfortable feeling celebrated. And it all comes down to the fact that when you stand in front of the mirror every single morning, you have this really subtle way that's not so subtle of starting your day by rejecting yourself. And I'm going to unpack this because it's unbelievably powerful when you start to truly understand this. Because if you can't look in the mirror and authentically see a human being being that you respect, that you encourage, that you like, that you're cheering for. I'm going to even leave love off the table because I think that is so unattainable for

where people are right now. Let's just go with, can you accept yourself? Can you like yourself? Can you see a person that's worthy of support, worthy of your encouragement? Can we just start with that baseline? Because for my research, the average person cannot. From my research, 50% of men and women do not or cannot look at themselves in the mirror because they are either disgusted by the person

they see, or they are disappointed by them. And for those of us that can look in the mirror, we're still rejecting ourselves because we focus on what we don't like, or we start to mindlessly think about all the things that we haven't done right, or that we didn't do yet. You know, on this particular morning, April, 2020, I'm overwhelmed by my life. I drag myself into the bathroom. I immediately see my reflection and I'm like, oh God, you look like hell.

I start ticking off all the things, the saggy neck, one boob lower than the other, like, you know, how exhausted I look, the gray hair coming in, how old I'm starting to seem. And then the other, like, you know, how exhausted I look, the gray hair coming in, how old I'm starting to seem. And then the mind, once it goes negative, keeps going in that direction, unless you're five, four, three, two, one, not thinking about that. But so my mind's like going down the drain. I'm like, why'd I get up so late? I got a Zoom call in eight minutes. God, he didn't even, you know, text him back yet. And the dog still needs to be, and I'm like the

beat down, boom, boom, boom starts. And, you know, I don't yet. And the dog still needs to be, and I'm like the beat down, boom, boom, boom starts. And you know, I don't know what came over me, but that morning standing there could not think of his thing to say. And here's the important part. When you feel like shit, when you're overwhelmed by your life, you're not going to believe a pep talk anyway, because it doesn't match how you feel. And so for whatever reason, I literally just raised my hand and I high-fived the woman that I saw in the mirror, because she looked like she needed a high-five. She looked like she needed somebody to say, it's going to be okay. You can do this. Get out there. And from that very first one,

it wasn't like lightning came crashing through the ceiling and stuck me in the head. That's not what happened, but there's definitely a switch inside each and every one of us. So think about the walls here. Even when the lights are off, there's electricity in these walls. Even during your worst moments, there is vitality ripping through your veins. There is an electrical life force within you. And life can turn that switch off, but it's still there. There was something about this high five action that felt like a flip, like the switch flipped on and all of a sudden the energy could connect back and something inside me turned on. Now, that first morning I didn't go,

yeah, like that's not what happened. I just felt this sort of shift from to, all right, you got a roof over your head, your family's healthy, you've saved money, it's not that bad. Get out there. I didn't even think those things. It was more like the electricity, the energy in me, this vitality kind of kicked in. But it was the second morning where the profound nature of what I was stepping into really kicked in. So I wake up, anxiety, ankles right up the legs, feel like the rush of, oh God, something's wrong. Five, four, three, two, one, I get out of bed. I start walking to the bathroom and it's as I'm walking to the bathroom, I'm not even in there yet, that I feel something I have never felt in my entire adult life. And it's this. You know, when you're about to go to a

cafe and you're going to meet somebody you're really excited to meet, right? Or somebody you really love, you know, you're going to see them. What do you feel, right? As you're about to walk in the cafe? You're excited. You're upbeat. You know, you're anticipating something good happening. Yeah. I actually realized I was feeling that way about seeing myself. Now, I'm 53 this year. I don't think until that morning in April 2020, I had ever had an experience as an adult of being excited to see the human being Mel Robbins. I've been excited to see an outfit or a haircut or the way a new eyeshadow might look, but the human being? The way our kids, when they're really, really little, just love the sight of themselves? This unconditional support and celebration that's

hardwired in your DNA when you're born. And so as I rounded the corner that second morning, that's when the profound nature of this started to really hit me. And I stood there and I stared at the woman in the mirror and I realized realized I don't think I've ever asked myself the question, what does she need for me today? I've never joined in partnership with myself. I have been so busy trying to get shit done, trying to make sure people like me, trying to make sure the bills are paid, trying to make sure everybody else is okay, trying to do all this stuff that is the stuff of our lives that I have forgotten about the most important person, and that is myself. And again, I'm going to go back to a point that we have been talking about kind of in various ways,

which is we all know that we're supposed to love ourselves. We all know that we're supposed to be kind to ourselves. You can read a quote on Instagram, you should talk to yourself like your best friend. The problem is how? You know, you read a quote like that, you're like, no shit, Sherlock. How do I do it? I mean, like, seriously? Right? How do you do that? I don't know. I've been beating the shit out of myself for years. How do I stop doing it? I don't know. And here's the thing. Logically, we know it's stupid because if beating yourself up, being hard on yourself, rejecting yourself, trashing yourself, if it actually worked, we'd all be millionaires. We'd have rockstar bodies. We'd have the best marriages on the planet. We'd never have to work a day in our life. We'd be on a beach somewhere. It would work. Yeah. But instead, we have these patterns

of thinking and small patterns of behavior, like not looking in the mirror at yourself is a form of rejecting yourself. Picking yourself apart is a habit of rejecting yourself. And so when you start your day like that, which you do, and then you go out into the world having rejected your very being, this is the reason why you are so thirsty for everybody else's validation. This is the reason why you are seeking your worth in the money that you make, in the car that you drive, in the downloads that you get, in the likes that you have, in the neighborhood that you live in. You think your worth is outside of you. And I'm here to tell you the secret to your fucking life is grab that worth and bring it back home. bring it back home. Start practicing a physical habit, an action that demonstrates to your brain that you respect yourself, that you believe that you're worthy, that you deserve forgiveness,

that you deserve encouragement, that you believe in you. And as you start to practice the physical action, the universal symbol for I got you, I love you, I celebrate you, I see you, I believe in you. When you practice this physical action, the neuro association that is already in your brain with the high five to yourself in the mirror takes over. It's insane how this works. The science is mind blowing. over. It's insane how this works. The science is mind blowing. I think this is a thousand times more powerful than the high five habit because it cuts down to the core of who you are. You think it's more powerful than the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 habit?

Hell yes, I do. Hell yes, because the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 is a tool that will push you to take action. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 is a tool you use to cut off the worries that trigger anxiety. 5-4-3-2-1 is a tool that you use to create a moment of objectivity and control when you're normally triggered so you can consciously choose a different response. The high five habit goes all the way down to the core of who you are and how you treat yourself. And when you become a human being who has compassion for yourself, who likes you, it won't matter what happens out there because everything in here is healed and taken care of. And so like, you know, somebody can say to me, I don't love you anymore. I don't like you. It'll sting, but it doesn't change the fact that I still like myself because I practice

and demonstrate it. That's the difference. Yeah. And that's, I think, the hidden magic in the high five habits is, because I've been trying it the last few days, right? And what did you experience? It is powerful because... Well, walk us through, like you're standing at your bathroom sink and walk us through your

experience. Well, first of all, you have to take a pause from your life, whatever you were going to do. It requires an intentional pause to go, no, I'm going to now do this action for myself. pause to go, no, I'm going to now do this action for myself. And I've got to say, before I tell you how it went, I think it would have been very different for me a few years ago, because I feel self-compassion, you know, not seeking your worth from outside, from other people, from from outside, from other people, from download numbers, likes, what people say about you, which was a huge part of my life. I feel that having put a lot of that to bed now and really feeling that I actually like the person I see in the mirror these days. So I kind of feel five years ago, I would have had a different experience with it, but it was still powerful because you are just looking at yourself and you're putting your hand on the mirror. And I think what it is, it's just that pause, that moment of seeing me.

Like you are seeing yourself. And like, I don't know, you know, obviously as a guy, what do we do? We often looking in the mirror. We might be looking at our beard as we're shaving, right? But you're not looking at your eyes, right? You're just looking at, oh, I need to shave. Oh, I missed a bit here. Let me get rid of that. And then you crack on, right?

Or you look at your face and your hair, but you're not really looking at yourself. You're seeing your silhouette. You are seeing yourself, but you're not seeing yourself, if that makes sense. And that's what I think was really powerful was that it's just another, like, I feel it's just another tool now, which is going to take me all off two seconds, if that's five seconds tops. It's not as if I don't have time to add that in. There's no harm in adding it in. And frankly, I like adding it in. It makes me feel good. It's like, oh, and I think that's what you say. It's the action. Yeah. You don't have to say anything. If you're not in the mood to say anything. I don't want you to say anything, actually. And the reason why is the neuro association.

What do you mean by that? Well, here's what I mean by that. So when you high five someone else, what is the action of a high five communicate? it's just a universal symbol of you got this. I see you. You're great. We can do this. You know, it depends on the situation, but it's a good feeling. It's a mutual sort of validation type experience. Tell me about the London Marathon and getting high fives. Oh, I mean... What did a stranger's high five mean to you? It just gave you, and that's the key, strangers, right? You don't know them and they're looking at you and you're looking at them. Maybe you're not even looking at them. You just went through,

you give a high five. It's like you've taken a shot of feel goods. It's validation. It's like, hey, you know what? We're in this together. You're standing at the side cheering. I'm running. But at that moment, it was like common humanity. It was like there was no animosity. And actually, this kind of one of my big learnings from the London Marathon actually was, and it relates to this, I think, is that that's kind of who we are. Like, in what is

considered a very divided world at the moment, I went and did the London Marathon, and all I saw was love, strangers giving love to other people that they didn't know, right? And how did they give that love? Through cheering, but more often than not, with a high five. Correct. It is a universal symbol of encouragement, of love, of celebration. And the neuro association, whether you live in a culture where you've been high-fived or not, the neuro association is still there because you have seen them in sport. You've seen them in marathons. You've seen teachers give them to kids. So your brain has a lifetime of programming in your subconscious that is triggered by this action. It is neurologically impossible to high-five yourself and think, you're a loser.

You failed. I don't like your face, your brain will not allow you to do it because the neuro association is so entrenched. It has only ever meant, I celebrate you, I see you, I got you, keep going, you got this, I'm behind you. You know, as you say that Mel, it makes me think of gratitude. Because when we are feeling grateful, we can't feel down, we can't feel anxious, we can't feel annoyed with ourselves. And in some ways, this is kind of gratitude for ourselves. Correct. Because the thing about gratitude, which obviously has tremendous demonstrated, proven benefits in your life, most of us are grateful for things outside of us. Yeah. What I'm teaching the world to do is to unlock neuro association in your mind and in

your nervous system and aim it back at yourself. And use this simple habit to interrupt the critic, to break the default loops in your mind associated with judgment, shame, criticism, hatred for self, and to replace it with a new default setting of seeing yourself the way you see your child, which is love. My kids do stuff that piss me off all the time. And I can be upset with them or disappointed with them, but I never stop loving them. And there is something that has happened to each and every one of us that as life's pains and heartaches and disappointments and setbacks sort of stack up, we stop loving ourselves. We start judging ourselves more. We start condemning ourselves more. We start

rejecting ourselves more. We start trying to seek somebody else's love and approval in order to fill up this well inside of us that we've been digging because we've been rejecting ourselves. And so, you know, it's so powerful because the action alone is what communicates it. If you're looking at yourself and you raise your hand on your hardest days, what the high five says is not, yeah, I'm amazing. This is not going to turn you into a narcissist. This is grounded in compassion. This is basically saying, I see you. You're right. This is hard. And you know what? You can do this. And I'm going to be here. And I've got your back.

And when you send yourself into your day with that physical action, it leaves an imprint in your mind and spirit. Now, there's a couple of reasons why. I don't even write about this part in the book because I didn't know this until I started doing podcasts for the book. So Dr. Amen told me, who's one of the leading experts in the brain, that one of the reasons why you feel better when you do it, no matter how terrible of a morning it is, is because your brain has always given you dopamine when somebody else high fives you. So these sorts of gestures are rewarded in the brain. So when you simply high five yourself, your brain doesn't distinguish between me high fiving me and me high fiving you. It just sees, oh, I know what that is. Drip, dopamine.

Oh, I believe in that person. The second thing that happens is that your body is hardwired for celebratory energy. This is that electricity that's in the walls that has a switch that you can turn on and off. And so, you know, for example, when you cross the finish line of the London Marathon, what do you instinctively do? High-five someone. Yeah, what do you instinctively do? High five someone. Yeah, and raise your hands, right? When your favorite team scores, raise your hands. When you yell surprise at a birthday party, you raise your hands.

When you say hello, you raise your arm. When you go to high five somebody, you raise your arms. When you hug somebody, you raise your arms. This is wired through your entire body, and normally we give that celebratory energy to other people or things. I'm here to tell you when you high five yourself, you flip the switch. You flip the switch and give yourself a little bit of that vitality that's coursing through you to help you move into your day. Yeah. I see it as almost like it is about the high five, but it's not in many ways as well

because it's like if you're going down a road and the high five to yourself sets you off on a different path for the rest of that day compared to had you not done it, right? A thousand percent right. So let's just use a great example that everybody can latch onto, sport.

Yeah. So if a team is about to play the championship in the league, right? Yeah. And they're the underdogs. What is the best way to send the team into that game? Is it to be to beat them down? Oh, you did a terrible job on the London Marathon. You're going to face plant New York. Oh my God. And I saw your split times. We're fucked. No, that's not

the best way to do it. But that's what we do to ourselves. Correct. Correct. And so I'm here to say, you don't have to say anything because you're not going to believe it. So we're going to cheat this. We're going to circuit your feelings. You're bypassing words. It's like when you take this ridiculous example, but it's like when you take a B12 supplement, but you take it sublingually. So it dissolves. So you bypass having to go into the gut, through the liver, and then you get it straight in. Correct. And it's got that feel to me. Thousand percent. And so you send yourself into the game of life with that sort of optimism, with that resilience, with that compassion. And look, some days you're going to laugh. Some days

you might cry. People report some days you're going to laugh. Some days you might cry. People report. Some days you're going to just feel a little bit better. And some days you're going to high five yourself and laugh out loud from the dopamine and walk into your boss's office and ask for that raise or quit. Because you're going to remember that no matter what, you're going to be okay. You're going to remember that no matter what, you got your own back. You're going to remember that it doesn't matter if nobody says great job at that presentation that you worked on because you can walk into the bathroom. As people have written to us, having practiced this, hey, I did a presentation at work.

Nobody said a damn word. The old me would have walked into my cube and cried and thought I was getting fired. I knew I did a good job. I walked into the bathroom and high-fived myself. Your kids can stick this in their back pocket. And it's a way to reset yourself when you start going down that negative road. And why is this important? It's important because the high-five is not going to remove poverty. It's not going to remove discrimination. It's not going to remove diabetes. It's not going to remove the fact that somebody just said they want to divorce you. It's not going to remove diabetes. It's not going to remove the fact that somebody just said they want to divorce you. It's not going to remove all of the trauma. It doesn't change those things. It changes you. And it changes your relationship with yourself and your ability to believe that through your actions and your attitude, you can move the needle on those things. Yeah. I love that last point, Mel, because the similarities between the way you talk about this and the way I've been talking about certain

behaviors and five minute habits for years, they are so connected. And one of the things I often say, and I want to just acknowledge you for what you just said, it's not going to change your life situation. If you're in poverty, you're still going to be in poverty, but's not going to change your life situation. If you're in poverty, you're still going to be in poverty, but you're going to be a different person. You're going to be better able to face the stresses that are in your life. And I think this is such an important point, right? Because I have said this before on the show, but I always think it's worth reiterating that a lot of people feel that self-help or wellness is the preserve of the wealthy and the middle classes. But actually habits like this, yes, they'll help someone who's got a ton of money in their bank accounts because a lot of people like that are wracked with self-doubt on the inside as well.

because a lot of people like that are wracked with self-doubt on the inside as well. But it's also going to help someone who is in poverty or a single mom who's working two jobs and has got three kids and is really struggling. That little micro moment each morning where she sees herself in the mirror, she signals to her brain that she is worthy, that actually she's a human being with real feelings and for all her qualities and all her, you know, all the great things that she's doing, that has power, right? And it is free. It is free. There's not a single person pretty much who is listening to this or watching this right now who couldn't just either pause or at the end go, all right, let me, I'm convinced Mel, like, I'm going to give this a go. I'm going to give this a go. Well, first of all, don't rush it. Don't rush it. So don't go into the bathroom and slap the

mirror and be like, I didn't feel anything. I want you to, again, as you so rightly put, take a minute and just look at yourself because for most people, that's the hardest part. I mentioned that, you know, I get smarter and I learn so much from every comment and people that write their stories in. person, Alison Bird, a friend of mine who made my ability to explain the depth of this so much deeper because she said one thing to me when she tried it before the book came out. She said, you know, I think it's working. I kind of feel, I feel energized. I said, but you know what surprised me now? I said, what? She goes, the resistance. I said, the resistance? What are you talking about? She's like, oh, first couple days I did this? I stood in front of that mirror and there was something in me that's like,

I couldn't even raise my hand. There was this resistance. And so I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And so I, of course, put something out, hey, to the 700,000 people on the newsletter list, anybody trying this and feel any resistance? We write to everybody that's in our little test group. Anybody feel? Holy cow. It turns out that most people do not have an immediate positive, oh, I'm doing this reaction. Most people have massive resistance to even trying it. And I want to explain why, because this is extraordinarily sad. And it also is an enormous opportunity for growth because I believe based on having 136,000 people go through a five-day challenge online that we're monitoring

in an app from 91 countries and seeing what they're reporting, I know that this takes five days to work. Five days before you have an enormous breakthrough in how you see and relate to yourself. Five days before the chemical, physiological, neurological, physical, and psychological change starts to go, holy cow, this is crazy this works like this. And so the resistance comes from self-judgment and self-condemnation. And I'm going to tell you a story to drive this home. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my

very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good?

All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour and I can't wait to see you there. strategy.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. As with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal.

In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal

or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. For people who stand in the bathroom mirror and they try the high five habit and they feel this resistance in their body. First of all, let me say, it's really normal to think this is weird because it is, okay? It just sounds so cheesy. For those of us that grew up

with Saturday Night Live, you're going to think of Stuart Smiley, you know, I'm nice, people like me, that skit they used to do about the guy who talked to himself in the mirror. You're going to stand there and go, seriously, Dr. Charlie and Mel Robbins, you two have lost your mind. But okay. If it's weird as you do it, that's a sign it's working. So Dr. Leaf told me, oh, well, that's what it feels like when a new neural pathway is getting plowed. So if it feels weird, good, because we're teaching you to do the opposite of criticizing yourself.

But the resistance is something else. The resistance is the fact that every morning as you start your day, you drag your entire past into the bathroom with you. And if you're somebody who has experienced trauma or been abused or abandoned or neglected or grew up with chaos and addiction or you've been the victim of a crime or you're constantly having to deal with discrimination or violence, all stuff that you're not responsible for. There are a lot of people who take all of that from their past and when they look at themselves, they see somebody who's damaged. They see somebody

who's unworthy. They see somebody who is unlovable because of those things. And what the high five starts to become when you do it is it becomes literally an act of defiance. It becomes an act of strength. It becomes a sign that I'm a survivor. It becomes permission to heal. It becomes this deep sense of feeling and knowing where you are and the fact that you have an extraordinary future despite all of the pain and suffering that you have endured and survived. And then there are people that bring everything they regret, all the shame, all the regret, all that. So the cheating, the lying, the stealing, the hurt you've caused yourself or other people, the missed opportunities. And boy, did I get an unbelievable example of this in my own life. So, you know, I was doing

the high five habit myself. And during the early days of the pandemic, my husband had just been diagnosed with depression. And he's a super healthy guy. He is a certified Buddhist meditation instructor. He leads men's retreats called Soul Degree. He's a yoga instructor. He's wildly involved with our community and with our family. He's a super high functioning guy. But he's just felt heavy. There's been like a cloud there, like a heaviness to him. There's no light between his eyes. And so thankfully, his therapist

finally got him to go see a psychopharmacologist and somebody to do the advanced testing. They're like, dude, you have dysthymia. You have like really long-term depression. Like you're lucky you've been doing all this stuff because it's kept you alive. And, you know, I turned to him at one point, I've been doing this for a couple days or a couple of weeks rather. And I'm like, you know, I know I'm not your doctor and I know I'm not an expert in your mental health, but I really think you should try this high five thing. I really think it's going to help you with this depression. He's like, I'm not high five. It is the stupidest thing. I don't care what you're doing. No. And I'm like, okay, if you won't do it for yourself, would you just do it for me? Would you do it for five days? Because we're in the middle of

researching this now. And I haven't even shared it with my audience yet. And I'm kind of like writing down in my journal what I'm feeling. And I've got a couple people on the team. Would you just do it for me? He's like, all right. So he kind of did the first one like, are you happy? You know, typical spouse thing. Like, all right.

So he did it for five days. And then I asked him what he thought. And he said, you're on to something really big. And I said, why do you say that? And I had no idea how dark my husband's thoughts were. I had no idea how much he was condemning himself, how much shame he felt. I knew that he was struggling with depression. I had no idea that for the past seven years, the man who has stood next to me at the bathroom sink next to me would look up at the mirror and see a person that he hated. He saw a person that had failed. He believed that since the restaurant business didn't work and since it left us 800 grand in debt, and that his wife had to go out and make the money, that he was the world's worst father, the world's worst husband, and he has been condemning himself

every day for seven years. And the reason he thought the high five was stupid is because you only high five people you care about. You only high five people who are winning. And he, of all people, didn't deserve it. And for me, you know, I knew that he was struggling with shame around the restaurant business. I knew he was struggling with the amount of debt that we had and the fact that investors lost money. For me, I had a totally different experience. I'm like, you guys worked at that for eight years? You made your investors whole? Hello, entrepreneurship?

Like, you know, we wouldn't have the five-second rule without it. Are you kidding? Like, woo-hoo, we're winning. This is amazing. Like, I didn't, his business partner had the same, like, he was proud of what they built, proud of how hard they worked. Chris, for whatever reason, that was not his story. His story was condemnation, regret, shame. He could only see a failure. What was wild about that is I've for years talked Chris up. I've for

years have told him how proud I am of him. He was the CFO of the business as the company was taking off. He owns half of it. He's an integral part of everything. He doesn't see it that way. And that's an important part. Nobody can heal you. Nobody can change how you talk to yourself. This is an inside job. And so if you relate to how my husband feels, I want you to understand that what Chris said to me was that this high five and pushing through the resistance is an act of forgiveness. It's an act of healing. It's an act of support and compassion that allows you and shows you that you are giving yourself permission to feel good again, that you deserve to be happy, that you deserve and that you can continue

to push on and go do better and be better and feel better. And that of all people, you're going to stop judging you. That's the hidden power because you had said to him, you're great. He was in your company. Our company. Yeah. Exactly. He always enjoyed's with me working um seeing the the success

loving wife loving kids but it didn't matter because that can only take you so far if the voice and the narrative that's playing in your own head is negative for many people it doesn't matter what the world around is telling them they're not telling it to themselves and therefore the high five habit it kind of breaks that even if it's just for 20 or 30 seconds yeah it is still that micro moment of compassion, of companionship. Yes. Right? Companionship with yourself.

Forgiveness, like all of it. All the stuff that we know we need to do, but we don't know how. Yeah. Because all we see is the stuff we regret. And so you weigh that in your mind and you start thinking about it. And this, what I love about this is not only the science, which is just like... And it's all there in the book. Oh, yeah. And the studies are there and all of it. And what I love about this is not only the science, which is just like, poof. And it's all there in the book.

Oh, yeah. And the studies are there and all of it. But I think the more powerful thing is that it's a simple action. And so let's go a layer deeper. Because the other thing that's happening is we can dip into behavioral activation therapy. So behavioral activation therapy, which as you know, is just as effective and in some cases more effective than cognitive behavioral therapy. Behavioral activation therapy can be boiled down to simply this, act like the person you want to become. This is very different by the way than fake it till you make it. Act like what you,

act like the person you want to become is set an intention for the person you want to become. Like you want to become a marathon runner? You need to start acting like one. You better buy some trainers. You better schedule some time with your wife to be able to go on a training run. You better watch some videos about how you taper up to the race. You better start acting like one. And so when you start to raise your hand and high five the human being in the mirror, you are acting like a person who cares about themselves. You're acting like a person who cheers for themselves. You're acting like a person who cares, empowers, respects, believes they're worthy, and your brain is watching.

And so over time, as you repeat this, the structure in your brain starts to change in relation to how you feel about yourself. You stop thinking, believe it or not, about the failed restaurant, and you start remembering that you join in companionship and support in cheering this person forward. It's brilliant. It's like unbelievable. Yeah, it really is, right? Because the research on self-compassion is just overwhelming. I don't know if you know- The UK study? Yeah, but also, do you know Professor Kristen Neff. I don't know if you know. The UK study? Yeah, but also, do you know Professor Kristen Neff? I don't. You would love her work. And she has been studying this

for about 20 years or so. And she came on the show and she was talking about how the research shows that people who are compassionate to themselves, they're healthier, they're happier, they're more productive. You know, it's not the narrative that we think we have to beat ourselves up. And when we beat ourselves up, that motivates us to take action. Although I think this is an interesting point, right? Because if I look at you, Mel, and I've been researching you for the past few days. I've been this morning, I watched your TED talk. Do you know that's like a 21 minute long panic attack? I do because I heard you talk about that. And I want to address that a little bit because I think

it's interesting. So you do a TED talk that certainly was uploaded in 2011 and is close to 30 million views now, right? So one of the most watched TED talks of all time, I would imagine, probably top 10. I think it's top 20 anyway, maybe longer, I don't know. Okay, so you, you know, the outside world, much of society would look at that and go, Mel Robbins is crushing it. She has just nailed a TED Talk. And it's gone viral. Now you're saying that you had a panic attack the whole time, right? So let's just think for a minute. You're getting the external success, but inside you are eating yourself up with worry, right? Then we fast forward, let's say nine, 10 years, April, 2020,

April 2020, you are successful speaker, motivational coach, best-selling author, and you're struggling with self-doubt in front of the mirror. So is there this slight clash here somewhere where actually you can be successful and not love yourself and be wracked with self-doubt. I think everybody is. Yeah. Success is not the source of self-love. In fact, most people who are successful or competitive or entrepreneurs, most people are chasing that success because they have married their self-worth with achievement. And I was the same. And so right there.

Me too. And so this is, by the way, evidence that you have a problem with self-rejection and with self-worth and with self-criticism because you believe you are only worthy of love and you are only worthy of support if you have achieved the thing. So someone's looking at you and thinking, man, I wish I was Mel Robbins, right? We'll talk about jealousy if we get to it later, but they might be jealous of you in a nice way. They might think, man, I wish I had a viral TED talk right now. I wish I had multiple international bestsellers. Great, right. Right. Apply for one. You can do it. If I can freaking do it, you can do it. But they might also be thinking, well, that is, that is success. You've had that,

even though you were wracked with these problems on the inside. And they may think, had that even though you were wracked with these problems on the inside. And they may think, you know, I'll take that. I'll take that success. And I think this comes to this widely societal point, which is we confuse sometimes success with happiness. When you anchor your happiness to doing things, it's always out of your control. When you anchor success to the crap you achieve, it is always a moving target. And so, you know, it's a really hard concept to wrap your brain around because first of all, there's the research that shows at least in Western countries that, you know, there's the baseline with money. 75 grand is the baseline that when somebody makes 75 grand or more, there's this happiness thing that I can't remember how the exact study goes, but it makes a lot of sense because

as somebody who could not pay groceries with three kids, as somebody who had liens on her house, as somebody who was getting the bankruptcy letters in the mail, as somebody who was unemployed during this whole thing and whose husband was bouncing the payroll checks and was running from one restaurant to the other to hide from the collectors that were showing up. I know what it's like to live with the constant, relentless pressure that comes from having no money. And until you can get yourself to a state where you can take a deep breath and you can pay the bill and you can buy some groceries and you can put some gas in the car and the phone rings and it's not a collector, you are going to live a stressed out life because your basic needs are under threat. And that is a horrendously triggering thing to live through. And we lived

through it for several years, it was like that. And so there is a certain level of economic stability that has a direct impact on your happiness, on your safety as a person, and your ability to experience less stress. So I just wanted to be, you know, responsible about that because I've freaking lived it. And, but I do think that, you know, look, I use the five second rule. I certainly have found my calling. I love building stuff. I'm incredible as a business woman. I love the game of making money. I love being smart in deal making. I love content syndication. I love being smart in deal making. I love content syndication. I'm super excited for NFTs and for how blockchain is going to change the role of being a creator. And so there's a part of this that's a real expression for me in terms of building a business. And the five second rule helped me take action. And the five second rule made me very productive. And the five second rule had me go, no, I don't want to do a talk show. No, I don't want to do a talk show. No, I do not want to do a talk show. Why are we still talking? Like I just, oh, and you know, this is interesting. When you say no, people want you more. I wish I knew that a long time ago. But so I for sure use the five-second rule to push myself

to take the actions that have made me wildly successful. But that doesn't change the fact that I would look in the mirror and still see a person that I didn't like. And that as soon as the five second rule book came out, like I'll give you an example. So I write the high five habit book. I'm practicing these tools and I am also human. So when we get word two weeks before the book comes out that the big box stores like Target and Walmart in the United States are passing on my book because I'm not a known author, I get triggered. I punch the wall. I pour a gin martini, light up a joint. I call a bunch of friends and bitch up a storm. I am literally reliving being left out at a sleepover in middle

school. I've got this gigantic, ridiculous story that, you know, it's, you know, I'm always left out. I'm never part of the group. Like there's this group of like real authors that are all friends and all, like, you know, I like have the whole thing. I'm human. Put the record out, just press play. Oh, yes, yes, exactly. I tend to be like angry, depressed kind of person, you know, like, yeah, like breaking stuff. And then I wake up in the morning and I drag myself into the bathroom and I look at myself in the mirror and I have compassion. I'm like, you're right. That sucks.

You are a known author. You deserve to have your work be in places where people can find it. It doesn't feel fair. And you know what? You're going to be okay. And so the high five becomes this, it's like a life jacket in the waves of life that keeps you above these waves so that they, yeah, they knock you over, they tumble you around, but then you climb back up, you reassure yourself. And I have this thing that is embodied in the high five. So the high five is also a

wildly realistic, optimistic mindset. So part of what I am constantly doing, and I do this as a mother too. So we have a 23 year old, a 21 year old and a 16 year old. And every day in everybody's life, there is stuff that happens that sucks. There are friends that go out to lunch that don't invite you. There are people that tell you no. There are schools you don't get into. There are apartments that somebody else gets. There's boyfriends and girlfriends that break up with you. There are people that have cooler clothes and nicer cars and parents who throw the parties. There's always going to be something that makes you feel like life is out to get you,

things aren't fair, people don't like you. It's just like a tweak, right? It's triggering your insecurity. And I have this saying that I developed that, again, it embodies this high five, which for me, also having run a marathon, the only reason why I made it across that finish line is because every stranger's high five said, I believe you can keep going. That's what the high five said to me. I see you, Mel. I see that you're limping. Keep going, girl. And so my mindset, whenever I'm working for something and I don't get it, and I feel the sting of rejection or disappointment, I always say to myself,

and I say this to my kids on repeat too, I say, look, when you work hard, you're going to be rewarded. You have to believe that this moment is preparing you for something better, that you didn't get this thing because something better is coming. And, you know, so there have been a couple of those. Like, for example, the High Five Habit audiobook is unreal. I mean, I record it. It is the number one selling audio book on all of Audible ever since it's been out in terms of the number of downloads in one month. It's just destroying it. And I know you

don't like that word, but it is destroying audio book. It has been reported in the AP. It has been reported in all these places. It is in the charts, number one. And we are destroying it on the Amazon charts because people are reading it and loving it and sharing it. And I freaking love it because it tells me that the tool is spreading. Because my books, like your books, are just vehicles for ideas to get out so then people can talk about them. And obviously, I put all this stuff online for free anyway. So if you can't afford the book, you're listening to this podcast. Like you're going to get...

But so the New York Times puts out a monthly audio book list. I self-published the audio book. And in the back of my mind, I was saying, don't get your hopes up, Mel. Don't get your hopes up. You're not a publisher. You're a self-published author. They're very fancy over there. And so the audio book list came out for the month of October. I clearly destroyed it. Like I'm

clearly the audio book. We don't even make it. Like a complete and utter intentional snub. That was another night where I punched a wall and drank a couple of martinis and lit up a joint and called a bunch of friends and felt really sorry for myself. And the next morning I literally high five myself in the mirror. It took about four mornings of high fiving myself to get over that sting because it felt personal. But I kept saying something better is coming, something better is coming. Do you know I figured out the better thing that's coming? Well, first of all, sales, actual sales are better than a list. So let's just get that straight. But I'm human. We all want to be recognized. I was in the New York Times crossword puzzle today.

Today? Yes. Isn't that not crazy? With a high five. I literally, it is the coolest thing. That's cooler than being a New York Times bestseller, I reckon. Don't you think? Yeah, I think it is. It thing that's cooler than being a new york times bestseller i reckon don't you think yeah i think it is so it's a smaller club i'm literally getting off the train and my text messages are blowing up from mates from the united states and they've screenshot this and it says

literally a three word down on the new york times and it said, motivational speaker, Robbins. And it was me. And you know what it was that made me so am. I think that I am a person who has really screwed up a lot. And for a very long time, I have lived inside a body that was wracked with anxiety and fight or flight and doubt and judgment. And it has been really hard to live in this body. Yes, I've been high functioning. Yes, I have still gotten okay grades. I've gone to great schools. I've had friends.

I've been married for 25 years. But it has been a real bitch to live with this much unedgedness, this much stress, this much self-imposed condemnation, this constant, relentless drumbeat of what's wrong and someone's mad at me and I've screwed up again and just constantly feeling like nobody likes me and I can never do it right and it's all never going to work. And just this, just this grinding feeling that when I finally started to attack the anxiety and understand it, when I finally started dealing with the childhood trauma that created a dysregulated nervous system in the first place, when I finally understood what was going on and came face to face with the woman in the mirror. And I started getting help and finding a new way because I didn't want to continue living a life where I felt that stressed out and that anxious

and that worried and where the constant just noise in my head was negative. Now through the five-second rule, through EMDR and psychedelic guided therapy, through traditional talk therapy, through the high-five habit and practicing that since April of 2020, I have a totally different experience of being alive. And if I can save anybody the headaches, the heartaches, the struggles that I have been through, that I now realize that you have very simple tools at your disposal that you can use to move the needle on the things that are making you feel anxious and stressed and unhappy and just constantly on edge, that you can come back home inside yourself and reconnect with your true nature. If you think about our true nature, we're wired for love, we're wired for connection. we're wired for connection,

we're born accepting ourselves. Like when a four-year-old sees a mirror, they don't back up and say, God, my thighs are fat and look at that nose and my hair. No, they like are woo, they're twirling, they love themselves. That's your true nature. That's why a high five from a stranger feels amazing because it cuts down to the core of who you really are, a person who deserves to be seen, a person who deserves to be celebrated. And it begins with you.

Yeah, it's so powerful, Mel. As you were describing your different experience of life now, you're still successful as you were, but're you experience it differently there's a there's a calmness there's a um there's a groundedness i guess with it is what i hear and it reminds me of a phrase that my friend pippa grain she's a psychologist she used to uh help the england football team a few years ago and she has this term winning shallow or winning deep and it really epitomizes that she's she's dealt with so many yeah it she's brilliant and it and it it's such a great phrase because it it's she's dealt with you know elite premier league footballers and um you know they've been walking up the steps to win the trophy,

and on the inside, they're feeling nothing. They thought from a young age, from the age of eight, I'll keep training, I'll keep training, I'll get for a big club, we'll get into the cup, we'll win it, because they thought, like many overachievers, that actually winning that medal, getting that number, getting that job, getting the house, getting the car, would make them happy. But it doesn't, because it's getting that job, getting the house, getting the car would make them happy.

But it doesn't because it's an inside job. And that's where I think this high five habit, it's not going to change everything, but it makes everything much easier. You know, you've still had therapy. Like I feel someone who, let's say they've got childhood trauma. Yeah, I do. Everybody does. And who doesn't trauma. Yeah, I do. Everybody does. And who doesn't, really? Yeah, everybody does, yeah. On some level.

And it's too hard for them to even address it and actually go and see someone. Well, the high five, I think, is your way in. Oh, of course, yeah. You start doing that, I think a few weeks down the line, you're going to be picking up the phone to someone and making an appointment.

Because you realize you deserve it. Exactly. Or you, when you're saying, when things didn't go to plan on this book launch, and I know all about that kind of stuff, that drink you poured yourself and that moan to your friends, that was one night, right? It seems to me like that high five habit, it just puts a flag in the sand and says, okay, you know what? We did that. Today's a new day. And today I see myself, I'm going to get on with it now. Yeah. It's like the way that a team shakes off a bad play and resets the game for themselves. And there's, you know, there's interesting research about that in chapter two, as you know, it's where all the research is. People love hearing about the study with NBA

teams in the United States. So researchers at Berkeley wondered, are there habits in the pre-season of the professional basketball league in the United States, habits in the pre-season that can predict what teams are going to have a winning record. And in fact, there are. And the habit in the preseason that determines what teams are going to have the winningest records are the number of pats on the back, fist bumps, and high fives that team members give one another. And it seems so implausible that the Wall Street Journal in 2011 did an independent study where they paid people to watch tapes and count it. And in fact, it's true. And it's also true that the teams that had the least number of high fives, pats on the back and fist bumps during the preseason had the worst records. Why? Well, you've already said it. When you high five somebody, you're building trust and partnership. You're in it together. When you withhold those gestures, you're selfish, you're judgmental, you're in it for yourself.

And one of the things that's helping me now feel like I'm winning deep is the fact that I know that I'm in partnership with myself. And when you know you can count on yourself, you know that anything that happens, even a massive tragedy, even the biggest heartbreak or betrayal of your life, you know that you will, like those waves of life, come out the other side. Yeah. That it will suck for a period, but you know that you have within you the ability to get through it. I think that's where my grounded, deep winning sense comes from. That doesn't mean I'm not immune. I'll give you a real-time example. So we've come here from the United States. I'm traveling with our 23-year-old daughter and

our COO, who's my sister-in-law. We've had an amazing time. And I was super proud and honored and excited that you had us on your podcast. And so last night, because it's COVID, we've got to do all these tests, right? You got to submit all this documentation to even come to the UK. Then when you arrive on day two, as you probably know, you've got to do this two-day test. And then there's all this complicated stuff that you've got to then upload in order to get a pass so that you can then, you know, be able to stay here. And then you got to get another test and you got to get that test within a certain number of days. And you can't get that test unless you get the first, like it is so

mind-blowingly stressful. And so last night we take the test and it's the little like COVID-19 swab thing. And we take the photos and we upload them and we go off to dinner and we come back and we're not approved yet. And my daughter starts going, oh my God, well, what if this happens? And what if that, does this mean we're going to be able to go to Paris on Thursday? What if we can't get back into the United States? What if I actually do have COVID if I test on PC? And then I start going, oh my, you're right. What if we do get stuck here? We do have to do a PCR test. What do you mean if these don't come back? It says they're going to come back in an hour, but they haven't come back in an hour. Is there something wrong? Did I not do? They did not come back last night. We woke up and now I am

fully, I haven't high-fived myself, I'm fully in the wake-up mode in the dark at six o'clock in the morning. We're over by High Street. We're in the hotel. My daughter's in the wake-up mode in the dark at six o'clock in the morning. We're over by high street. We're in the hotel. My daughter's in the bed with me. And she wakes up and she's like, mom, are you awake? I'm like, yeah. And she's like, check your email. I'm like, she's like, we don't have our results checked. And I'm like, no, we don't. We don't. They're negative. I know they're negative. They're negative. I had two COVID tests before I came here. I know they're negative. And so we're working ourselves into a frenzy. I walk into the bathroom.

I look in the mirror and I go, Mel, what if it works out? What if you get to Paris and the PCR test is negative or positive? Like, let's just go. Like, we weren't even worried about a positive test. We were worried that the form we had to submit somehow wasn't going to get accepted. So we wouldn't be able to leave. And then like, it just became this craziness. Just playing out all these fictional.

Yes. And we've all had this happen where your mind hijacks you. By the way, the second I got on the train, we get the email, results are in, negative, you're good to go, you can leave the country. You know what I mean? So we're like, oh, thank God. I wasted probably five hours sort of ginning this thing up with my daughter, allowing my mind to take me down a road that was absolutely ridiculous, which is part of the human experience. And it was, honest to God, a high five in the mirror and that pause. And this kind of like, this is going to be okay. And then my favorite kind of mantra when I remember to use it is,

what if it all works out? What if? And then I said, well, Sawyer, what if it all works out? Let's just play this out. Let's just say we can't leave Britain. You've always said you want to live in London. Let's just say we can't get home for Thanksgiving. Maybe dad and those two come over. What if it all works out? What if I record the audio book next week here in London or Paris instead of going back home to the States? What if we can't leave? What if it all works out? There's a beautiful section in the book on that, which I loved. And I think so many people will resonate with that. Maybe a different scenario, but this just hypothetical, then you just bleed time and hours. And before you know it, the amount of energy you've wasted on that is just incredible,

isn't it? It's incredible. And I'm telling that story because I want everybody to understand. Just because I'm sharing tools doesn't mean I always use them. It doesn't mean that I have a disappointment or a stressful situation and my mind is suddenly Zen, like I am just as vulnerable to the waves of emotion carrying me downstream. But what I have developed, which is what I love this idea of winning shallow and winning deep. I have developed this toolkit, especially with the high five in the mirror, especially with this everything is preparing you for something extraordinary that's going to happen, that if you didn't get what you wanted and you've worked really hard, it's because something better is going to happen, so just keep working. Literally, one of my favorite

friends who grew up in London, Paul Wilmington, once gave me the best interview advice. Yeah. And he said, when you're interviewing for something, you go in there and you give a thousand percent, you just light it up. And then when you walk out of that interview, forget it ever happened and go and focus on being amazing at what made them want you in the first place. Yeah. Because if you don't get that job, you weren't meant to and something better is coming. Yeah. And what I love about that, Mel, is we've got a choice in life, right?

You can choose not to believe that. You can choose to believe that I didn't get that job. Man, that was my dream job. Everything would have been perfect. It was in the right city, the right salary. I've been working for that. You can do that. But where's that going to get you?

Like the choice to believe that actually something better is coming along it is a choice right yeah and by making that choice as hard as it may be in that moment your shoulders drop you feel calmer you feel stressed you're much more likely to see the opportunities that are on the other side of that than if you are caught up in that stress mode. I mean, you've written, I've read about how what stress does to the brain, right? When you're in that panic, what does that do? Yeah. Well, if all of a sudden we smelled smoke and the fire alarm went off, you and I would not be able to do a math problem. Yeah. Because your nervous system takes over and goes into fight or flight,

which then impairs your brain's ability to focus on something rationally or strategically. And so you just made me think of something that I think is really helpful to understand. I know it was really helpful for me to understand this point. And it relates to this story about me all of a sudden getting freaked out and stressed out about the fact that our documents were not uploading to the UK passport thing. You can choose what you tell yourself about a situation that's happening. But it was helpful for me when I started to understand that your emotional waves and your nervous system response happens before your thoughts appear. And so it's really important for everybody to realize you will not be able to control the fact that there will be moments when you're disappointed, moments when you feel rage, moments when you feel betrayed, moments when you feel pissed off, moments when you feel shortchanged, moments when you feel

aggravated, and these waves come over you. You will never be able to control those from coming up. But you can choose what you are going to tell yourself about what's happening. And the other thing is, is that when it comes to trauma, I mean, all of this is sort of dysregulation in your nervous system that's stored there that keeps getting re-triggered. And so if you're dealing with a trauma response, you will not be able to also think your way through it first. And part of what has really helped me is when I started to understand, oh, the wave of emotion and feeling comes before my brain can actually help me get back in control. And so when I started to understand that, oh, there's going to be these waves of emotion, don't resist them. Let them come. Feel it. I'm somebody that likes to hyper-process.

That's my weird word for it, which is basically, I will say, I feel really pissed off. I just express it because it feels like it expels it. I'm working on not emotionally venting at people. I'm working on putting myself in pause and going, Chris, honey, do you have the capacity to hear me go rip shit about something that has nothing to do with you? And he's like, as a matter of fact, I do. Why don't you make yourself a drink and I'll sit down here with my glass of water and listen to you rip, Mel? So that kind of being responsible. That is progress. Yeah, oh, that's huge progress.

Seriously, it sounds funny, but actually. It's huge progress. It is huge. It's kind of, it's a real awareness of the situation, isn't it? It's a real awareness of your emotion scope. I now am about to unrip. Yes.

Let me just check that the person I love is okay for this. It's respectful. Oh, I'm so happy you said this because I just learned about this in our couples counseling. Go see this marriage therapist to sort of just deal with her own stuff and depression and my stuff. And holy cow, I didn't realize that my turning to Chris, my best friend, my partner in life, my lover, my husband of 25 years, I never knew that in the past seven years when I would turn to him and just be like, the British fucking website's not doing this. Because part of his story is that I'm not a good husband and I've failed in this business and my wife is out there doing this and I'm the one that

should probably be making the money and that makes me less of a man and all of the garbage. Even if I was venting and upset about something that had nothing to do with him, Even if I was venting and upset about something that had nothing to do with him, he would tell himself, if you were doing your job, you'd be able to fix this. If you were a good husband, she would like, we're in this, like he was feeling like more reasons why he was incapable. Now, I didn't know any of this. Yeah. And so I really appreciate you saying that because I think a lot of us in our most important relationships, we just assume that our spouse or our lover can absorb everything.

And there's a lot of times where they can't. Yeah. And being more responsible about what you're feeling, what you're about to express, whether or not somebody has the capacity to listen to it or to help you with something right now. Yeah. You're right. I did make a joke about it.

And it is an enormously important thing. And this is a very new thing for me. I appreciate you sharing that because this is, again, I think the sort of power of your work, Mel. It looks as though it's, you know, the subtype, take control of your life with one simple habit.

But our life is not just us, right? We are relational beings. We only exist in relation to other people. So you show yourself a bit of self-compassion. You create that little bit of space to sort of process your emotions and see yourself and validate yourself. You're then going to show up differently with all the interactions in your life, including those with your loved ones, your children, your partner. And why I sort of picked up on that is because I feel in my own marriage that, and even with my kids, if I'm honest, just I guess close relationships,

this real understanding of what is it you want from me now? What do you need from me? Let's say, for example, my wife says something to me to complain or she's anxious about something. I will now ask in a way that I didn't a few years ago, hey babe, do you want me to try and provide a solution or do you want me to just listen? 99 times out of 100, it is, I just want you to listen. And that has changed everything because the old me would have just jumped into the solution. She didn't want that. She just wants me to listen. And likewise, if I've got something to say about, because she produces the podcast, right? Oh, amazing. Great job.

Thanks for booking me. So it's kind of, it can be hard sometimes because our whole personal lives can be consumed with trying to put out this show. This was a big issue in my marriage, by the way. I can believe that. Which I didn't realize. And so I think it's amazing when couples can work together. I thought it was bringing us closer. And it was actually making it really hard on Chris because our marriage became work. And so it's one of the reasons why he's leaving the business. Oh, my God. Well, literally this morning before you showed up, Ved and I were talking and we have decided that we're

going to look for a new producer because she's brilliant at it, but it's just too much. The show's too big now. There's too much intensity to get this show out every week. And I think as much as she loves it, this is my thing. Yes. Right. This is my thing. I've chosen to do this. She's helped me with this thing, but it's not her thing. And it's taken a while to get to that point, but we're kind of feeling quite free and thinking, okay, now we have to find someone. Oh, I'm sure it'll get flooded now that that's out on the air. I'm really proud of you guys because we got so busy and sort of stuck in our roles, both in the company and in our marriage, that I think for Chris in particular, he couldn't see a way to break it apart without feeling more disappointment

that he had failed there too. And I couldn't see a way to having somebody else take over his role as the COO because I trust him with my life. And so we were both in these habits that felt broken, but it was just patterns of thinking that were broken. And, you know, I got to give Chris the credit because he is the one that said, we got to like, go talk to somebody about this. I mean, that's, it's really wonderful to hear that. And you've come out the other side off that. Still going. Still going. But in relation to the point about being respectful to others, because work takes up so much of our personal life, as well as professional life, like I will always ask or

try my best to and likewise with it. It's like, look, I just want to ask you a question about the podcast or about production schedule, you know, is now a good time? And even that small thing, it's kind of really cool because it's like, you know what? I just not, or I could say, hey babe, I really don't want to talk about work at the moment. Can we leave it till tomorrow? It just opens up instead of someone trying to say it and the other person getting really frustrated. I'm trying to unwind now. You know, why are you bringing work in? Which could also happen. Well, I'm trying to unwind now. You know, why are you bringing work in? Which could also happen.

Well, that's all that our life became. It's all we talked about. It's all because it was so consuming. And, you know, neither one of us had ever built a freaking media company or a production company or had been in this business. And so we didn't know what the fuck we were doing, which added more stress. Yeah. And so I'm really proud of you, too, for recognizing that. You're certainly doing it faster added more stress. And so I'm really proud of you two for recognizing that. You're certainly doing it faster than we did. That was a very powerful section in the book.

I can't remember the subtitle you gave to it, but it was essentially saying the added benefit of adopting not just the high five habit, the book is full of other practical things. I was like, should we call it the high five habits? Should we call it the high five habit? Should we call it the... And I made a strategic decision to only call it the high five habit, because if there was one tool that got out, I wanted this one. And I knew if we called it the high five habits, everything would be, well, what are the high five habits? And it would become a listicle in terms of the PR. So that was strategic, even though there were like 11 tools in the book around self-empowerment.

Yeah. I mean, we could do a whole podcast on my struggles with book titles, but I think it's a great title and there's lots of practical tools in the book beyond the high five habits. But I love that bit where you were talking about that doing this stuff, it kind of helps you to be a better role model to your kids. You know, you show them how you manage difficult situations. You show them that you're worthy of compassion to yourself. And I kind of reread that several times because if i'm brutally honest

i think one of my own drives to become a better person a calmer person a less judgmental person a less reactive person has been to be a better dad because when you see things about yourself that you're being reflected back through your kids. You're like, you know what, I could either tell them not to do that. Or I could take a look in the mirror and try and figure this stuff out myself. So I thought that was really powerful. I think it's not easy. There's a story in there that I didn't include that I can tell you that really kind of drives us home. So I remember we were, maybe I did put in the book, I don't remember at this point. I was taking a selfie with our two daughters who are 23 and 21. And I, oh, I know what it was. We were talking about just body image. And one of our daughters is very tall

and lean and the other one is shapely and gorgeous and amazing and the best human ever. They both are. But I, and the reason why I sort of paused there is because I was making a mistake that all mothers tend to make, which is we compliment our daughters for their beauty and not for the fact that they're loyal and they're smart and they're amazing human beings and they're hardworking. So because it was done to us and the brain learns patterns, we're just repeating the patterns with our daughters. And so it's super important, I learned this late, to compliment attributes that you like rather than constantly complimenting outfits and nails and hairstyles and the way that they look. So that's one thing that you can do. And we were talking about this and I was like, why do you guys like, I see you and you're so freaking beautiful.

Like I looked like a troll when I was in college. Like I had a Dorothy Hamill haircut and then I had a flash dance perm. I mean, you guys look like unbelievable. And I'm like, why are you so critical? Like you constantly look in the mirror. Where does that come from? And without skipping a beat, my 21-year-old daughter turned to me and said, it comes from you. And I said, what do you mean? She said, are you kidding me? Have you ever heard yourself talk about yourself? I'm like, what? No. What are you talking about? She's like, every time we take a photo with you, do you know what you say about the photo? I'm like, no. She goes, you go, do I really look like that? And mom, we think you're beautiful.

So if we think you're beautiful and you're constantly criticizing and questioning what you look like, why would we ever trust you when you tell us that you think we're beautiful? And I was like, mic drop. Okay, that's 10 years of therapy. You can just put that on my credit card, girls, because clearly I fucked you up. And I laugh because otherwise, what are you going to do? But seriously, I think that your kids are watching and they learn patterns. And one of the things that I'm excited about in terms of the tools in this book is I do believe in terms of Winning Deep that there is an opportunity not for you to just break your own habits that are self-destructive, but you have the chance to break generational habits. Yeah. Because the self-criticism didn't start with you. The self-rejection didn't start with you. This is your father's voice or your mother's

voice. And before that, it was your grandmother's voice or your grandfather's voice. Nobody taught them how to feel worthy and to love themselves and to accept themselves and to forgive themselves. And so when you start to take on this project of really practicing and demonstrating to yourself every single morning in the mirror that you like you, that you think you're worth it, that you respect you, that you're going to validate you, that you will support you, that you think you're worth it, that you respect you, that you're going to validate you, that you will support you. That builds and it breaks cycles and cycles of generations of self-criticism. And that means that it can stop with you and you can show your kids a different way. Because, you know, I've also know that, you know, look, your kids are going to, you can't avoid comparison. You can't avoid those feelings of insecurity. You can't avoid looking around at the world and seeing places that you

fit in and places that you don't. And it's heartbreaking when you're a parent and you get a text from one of your kids going, why does nobody like me? Or why won't anybody ask me to the dance? Or why am I the biggest one of all my friends? Or the brownest? Or the darkest? Or why do I have kinky hair? Why am I so tall?

Or why do I have to these, like this sort of like, ah, if I could only be different. You won't be able to change that. But through the high five habit and the tools in this book, you can demonstrate what self-acceptance looks like. So eventually they will learn how to do it for themselves. I think that would be my hope too, because I, you know, my kids are a bit younger than yours, 11 and 8 at the moment. And I do think these two habits that we've spoken about, and there's many more in the book, but 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go. Yeah. And the high five habits.

I can see no reason why they can't be adopted into every school. Of course. So many teachers listen to this podcast, and I would love some of them to get in touch and let us know. Oh, we have teachers all over the world right now that put a mirror up in the classroom and the kids walk in and high five the mirror. And, you know, as part of bullying programs, the high five or the five, four, three, two, one is a tool that is like, you know, look, when they're like, I'm going to, you know, don't you dare tell your parents, you're like, and you start to go down the road of, but everybody will hate me in this. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, tell the freaking adults. Like one of the most painful

design flaws in a human being is that when you're a kid and something bad happens to you, and something bad happens to you. You do not have the life experience or the wiring, unfortunately, to go, oh my God, if this loser's doing this to me, I can't imagine what's happening at home. Or these adults are screwed up. Somebody call the freaking police because you don't get to talk to me or treat me like that. No, every kid, it's the design of a human being to go, No, every kid, it's the design of a human being to go, what's wrong with me? You aim it back at yourself and you use this abusive or toxic or negative behavior or treatment because you don't know any better. It's the way our brains are designed. It's what we all do.

We think there's something wrong with us. And it's because you don't have the support system. You don't have the life experience. And so that's what the brain does. Yeah. And I think that I have been doing that to myself for 40 years. And it's only in discovering this high five habit that I've been able to break it and be like, there's nothing

wrong with me. I'm just a human being that feels a bunch of stuff. It's doing a bunch of stuff. That's trying her best. And life is a lot richer and more rewarding and full of joy and meaning when you can start every day knowing that you like the person you're spending your whole life with and that you're going to support them no matter what, no matter how much they weigh, no matter how little money they have, no matter how many freckles or how kinky your hair is, that you got you. Mel, I could talk for hours with you. I think there's just so much that we haven't talked about yet. And I encourage people to pick up the book to kind of learn all those tools. There's so much cool science like the RAS, which you didn't mention, which I wanted to get into.

But, you know, I really would encourage people to get the High Five Habit. I think it is so well written. Your voice, your energy kind of permeates through it. And it's not easy to write books like that. When they're that easy to read, and there's a lot of science behind it, I know full well what it's like to try and simplify that messaging. It was painful. Let me tell you, it was really painful. It is harder to write books that are that easy to read than going deep and going on for worse, it seems like my fate in life is that I have to fall into a hole or I have to dig one for myself. And then I have to be pissed

off and sad and overwhelmed. And then I have to have the epiphany that nobody's coming to save my ass and I need a ladder. And so I build one. And that's what the five second rule was. That's what the high five habit is. And so this book, I only started writing in probably, oh my God. I mean, we started kind of researching it end of May. I started writing maybe in August. I wrote that thing in about four months. And then when I looked at the first draft, I realized I was writing it for fancy pants people like you who have a degree so that you would see the research. And it was so boring. And in 14 days flat, we tore that book apart and rewrote it because I realized I was coming back to that credentialed thing of wanting to seem smart when really I just wanted to make a difference for the woman in Iceland or Steph who's thinking about hitting send on an email or that person who just lost their job or is going through a divorce or feels overwhelmed by life because I know what that's like because I've lived it.

And if a book isn't easy and fun to read, you're not going to read it. Mel, as I said at the start, there are so many similarities in our lives. We've led different lives on different sides of the pond. But that's exactly the same story with my very first book, which is called The Four Pillar Plan in the UK. It's called How to Make Disease Disappear in America. First book I was writing, I remember

writing it in the first couple of weeks. I really want doctors to like this. Loads of research in there. I was doing it, maybe not even two weeks, about a week in. I remember just looking at it and going, Rangan, what are you doing? Why are you writing this book? Are you writing it so that doctors like it and then they like you? Or are you writing it to help people? And I went for a long walk in nature and I was like, no, I know I have got a way of putting these messages out that's going to help people because I know I can do it one-on-one with patients. That's why I'm writing it. I threw out the manuscript. I started again. I thought, right, you're going to have that reader in your mind throughout this entire process. And it's just so wonderful to meet someone else who's gone through that same process.

Even just a year ago, you were going through it. This podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. Right at the end of what for me has been an incredibly enjoyable and deep conversation, what are your sort of final words of advice and wisdom for people listening and watching as to how they can start to get more out of their lives? You know, you only get one life. And I want you to enjoy it. And I hope that the conversation that you've just listened to

not only gives you hope and the possibility that there is a way and a path for you to truly make some changes and enjoy your life, enjoy the experience of being you, enjoy what it's like to wake up and to move through your day. I hope you also got some tools that are going to help you do it because, you know, I think at some point you'll have an awakening, and I hope it's right now, that you got to give yourself permission to feel happy. You got to be willing to say, I don't want to feel like this anymore because I know deep in my heart I'm meant to feel better. And if that's all that the awakening is, that's all you need is just knowing that you deserve to feel better because you do. And whether it's the high five habit or it's counting five, four,

three, two, one, and shutting the critic down in your head, there are simple tools that you can use to help you to start to feel better every single day. Mel Robbins, you're an incredible human being. You've written a fantastic book, The High Five Habits. You're helping millions of people. Thank you so much for coming to the studio. And I cannot wait for the next time we get together. Me either. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, do think about one thing that you can take away and start applying into your own life. And of course, please do let Mel and I know what you thought of our exchange on social media. weekly newsletter. It contains five short doses of positivity to get you ready for the weekend. And in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. It usually contains a

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