Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #230 Fearne Cotton on How To Find Your Happy Place

Episode Date: January 19, 2022

CAUTION: Contains swearing and themes of an adult nature. It is my absolute pleasure to be able to share today’s conversation with you. I’m speaking with fellow podcaster and author Fearne Cotton, someone I count as a good friend and kindred spirit. Fearne has been a talented and high-profile star on UK TV and radio since the age of 15. But these days she’s found her ‘happy place’ out of the public glare, living with intention and sharing her experiences with a like-minded audience. Fearne’s latest book, Bigger Than Us, is a beautiful exploration of spirituality, connection, and a judgement-free look at our ideas of wellness. As this episode begins, Fearne shares her very recent heartbreak at losing a cherished companion of 20 years, her rescue cat Lula. We talk about her bereavement, the experience of grief and how it can open us up to spiritual thinking and finding meaning. Fearne is a big believer that self-compassion is the key to living an authentic life, although she freely admits this is something she struggles with. We discuss honouring the good and bad in our lives, and how letting go of the past and limiting beliefs doesn’t mean blocking them out – just refusing to carry them around with us. What I love about Fearne’s approach is that she doesn’t claim to be an expert in self-help – she’s just super-keen to share what’s worked for her and might interest others. Perhaps the best example of this is Fearne’s Happy Place Festival, which brings people together for the sorts of communal experiences we agree can be life-changing. I so enjoyed talking to Fearne. She’s honest, relatable and she helps so many people through her work. I’m honoured that she felt able to come on the podcast at what was a difficult time for her. But as you’ll hear, there’s much light and laughter in this conversation too. It’s a very special one – I think you’ll enjoy it. Thanks to our sponsors:   https://calm.com/livemore   http://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore https://vivobarefoot.com/livemore Order Dr Chatterjee's new book Happy Mind, Happy Life: UK version and US & Canada version   Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/230   Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/3oAKmxi. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

I think the only resolution worth making is that you're going to be nicer to yourself. It's the only one that we should bother doing because I don't do it enough. I would like if there is any sort of goal applied to my life for it to be to just turn up as me and for that to be enough. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. So today on the show, my guest is the one and only Fern Cotter. Now, if you grew up in the UK, if you live in the UK, you probably know who Fern is. But for those of you who are listening in a different country, let me give you a brief introduction because I really think that this is a conversation

that is well worth listening to. Now Fern is someone who grew up in the public eye. She has been a high profile personality on UK television and radio since the age of 15. She's presented on Children's BBC, Top of the Pops, Red Nose Day, Children in Need, as well as hosting her own shows on BBC Radio 1 and Radio 2. But these days, she's found her happy place out of the public glare, living with intention and finding her true purpose. Now Fern's latest book, Bigger Than Us, The Power of Finding Meaning in a Messy World, is a beautiful exploration of spirituality, connection, and a judgment-free look at the various different ideas that society has about wellness. We go into all kinds of areas in our conversation today, including why it is so important to honour

both the good as well as the bad in our lives, and how letting go of the past and our self-limiting beliefs doesn't mean blocking them out. It just means refusing to constantly carry them around with us. We also talk about the importance of self-compassion in living an authentic life, although Fern freely admits that this is something she has long struggled with. We also discuss our respective podcasts and what we both individually get out of them for ourselves. Now, there are just so many things that I really like about Fern's approach. There's, of course, her humility, but there's also her realness and her down-to-earthness that I think draws so many people to her. She also doesn't claim to be an expert in self-help. She's just

super keen to share what's worked for her with others in the hope that it may strike a chord and inspire them. I really do think that this is a special conversation. Although I've only got to know Fern over the past year or so, this really felt like two old friends catching up and talking about the things that really matter. I hope you enjoy listening. And now, my conversation with Fern Cotton. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. What a joy to be here. I really, first of all, appreciate you taking the time to come up, get the train up, get you out of London. How was that? It was actually really nice. I love a train journey. And I came with my manager, Sarah. of a train journey um and I came with my manager Sarah so we used the time very wisely and got lots of work done um and had a bit of a gossip about life as well so yeah I think train journeys force

you to sort of stop a little bit don't they so it was a very pleasant journey well this morning when I was looking through your Instagram feeds to just see, well, what's phoned up to at the moment? I saw that you posted this morning that you lost your cat yesterday. First of all, sorry to hear that. How are you doing? Yeah, I mean, it's been hard. It sounds so silly when you don't have pets or animals in your life, I guess, to be that sort of hit by it. But it really floored me because, you know, I've got two cats. One of them is still alive. And I got them when I was 20 from an animal home. And, you know, she's been with me through so much and moved all around London with me and, you know, seen me really, really happy,

seen me in tears. And I think when you lose them, you just feel that beautiful, innocent love has gone, which I don't think you get so often with humans in your life. You'll get that from, you know, people who you're very, very close to, but it's not a given with everyone in your life you'll get that from you know people who you're very very close to but it's not a given with everyone in your life but with animals it's just the purest most beautiful thing so I'm absolutely heartbroken I'm sorry to hear that that sounds really tricky um I've never had a pet so I've heard people say that before but I've never really experienced that myself um so sorry for what you're going through. I appreciate you coming up and doing the podcast nonetheless. Yeah, well, I thought, you know what?

Because I felt really, really sad this morning, but I thought, you know, I know what your podcast is about and it's the sort of work that I'm trying to do and it's really honest work and it's deep work. And actually, it's probably really good for me to have a deep chat in this frame of mind, because I think grief on whatever level just sort of strips layers away that need to go and it gets rid of the ego. It's really humbling. So I feel it's important to keep doing the work that I'm doing with whatever's going on. You know, I've

certainly had that in the past going through all sorts of difficult things and you end up working in a more authentic way, I think. So I think it's, you know, a good thing that I'm talking to you today. Well, I hope so. It's interesting what you said about grief there. I've been reading your new book, Bigger Than Us. It's brilliant to read. And there's a lot I want to unpack in the conversation today. came in for me and it was probably through grief you know when my dad died I think that was the first kind of big moment where I had to sort of take a look around me and ask myself really difficult questions you know whose life are you leading you know what's going on what is the meaning of life so I definitely resonate with that grief although you are in the very acute phases uh of course but grief has that potential hasn't it yeah i mean i was thinking this yesterday um when it happened and it's you

know i was there when she passed away and i'd never seen a human or animal make that transition. I'd never witnessed death before. And I found it, you know, deeply sad and sort of shocking, but equally as sort of beautiful, I guess. And yeah, it felt, I guess, very special sort of being with her in that moment. And I was already questioning so much, you know, last night about my own life. And, you know, like I waste so much time worrying about stupid shit that it doesn't matter and caring about what other people think of me when, you know, the big, big thought for me last night was spending all this time hoping that other people I don't know like me I've got all the love that I need in these four walls I don't need any more don't need any more so that was a big one yeah that's a lesson for all of us isn't it to reflect on that thank you for sharing that I know it must be very very tricky um that sort of as you were saying that fern you know i have once been present to life

extinguishing certainly in the human form yeah and i didn't realize i wasn't spiritual at the time i reflect through this podcast actually i think back it was when dad died and i was in dad had been ill for years and i was in a hospital room and my mom was on one side i was on the other side and i was holding his right hands mom was holding his left hands and literally it was for um hours you know we knew this was coming but you don't quite know when and it was probably for like 12 14 hours sitting with dad and he was hooked up to monitors and such it was a very medical way of leaving but I remember as I reflect that man I sat with dad as he was breathing and living holding his hand as his blood pressure was dropping and as bit by bit like the life is gone yeah and I remember my

brother wasn't there I phoned him at home he got a taxi into Manchester me mum my brother we sat there for two hours well what I don't know I didn't have a timer on me what what felt like two hours in the room around dad's dad's dead but we were chatting and it was such a calm serene time so yeah that's my experience yeah it's it is so strange that you know you there's a living beautiful person animal whoever it is that has that meaning in your life. And that's there. Literally one second it's there and the next it's not. I don't think our human brains can, we can understand it on perhaps a medical level, a scientific level as to what's happening. But on a deep, meaningful level, I don't know how we're meant to get our heads around it.

It's too huge. And obviously, I sort of thought about it a lot previously. Both my parents are alive, so I haven't been through that level of grief yet. I lost my grandparents when I was relatively young. So I remember the pain, but I probably didn't have the sort of mindset that I do now. I've lost friends more recently, which has been really hard to get my head around. But, yeah, I think with animals, when you've had,

they're like part of the family and they're with you consistently. So it has hit me really hard. And, yeah, I still haven't got my head around that moment of her sort of going and and it does bring up a lot of questions like well where has she gone you know I certainly believe that we're not just flesh and blood with a brain there's whether you want to call it consciousness or spirit or your soul I believe in that and I think without that I would feel quite bleak about the human experience that we're just all sacks of meat walking around with random things happening

I personally can't live in a world like that I want to have a grasp and a belief in something bigger um so I do wonder where her energy is now and where she's gone and likewise with other people that i've lost in the past it's it's so we don't have answers and that's humbling because we've been tricked into believing that man knows everything and we have all the answers and we can figure out all the answers and it's's a lie. We don't know. We don't have a clue. I think that's what's so powerful about your book, or one of the many things that, you know, the title, Bigger Than Us, right?

Yeah. It kind of says it all. It's that connection to something beyond who we are, who we think we are. And, you know, as a doctor, I think this has been one of my frustrations with the profession in general. You know, I'm very proud to be a medical doctor, but I think we're missing a big piece. Everything has been reduced down to blood results and scans and are you in the correct parameter and that can have value sometimes

but if I really think about the transformations in health that I've witnessed over the past 20 years a connection to something bigger than us is always part of the picture. Yeah it's become essential for me because I guess I've been thrust into this world or whatever it is of well-being. I sometimes feel uncomfortable with that because it's used sometimes in a very beautiful way and other times in a warped way. But to me, wellness is a full-bodied picture of, of course, you know, you've got to have a bit of all of it. You can't just have faith and hope without doing some practical things to look after yourself. But if you just do the practical, what's the point of it? So for me, you know, I say this in the book, I could drink all the wheatgrass. I could be, you know, covering myself in reishi mushrooms, whatever it might be. But if I don't have the other bit that is the connection and the belief and a mind that can expand beyond that, I don't

feel well. I don't feel well without that. So it's become, you know, an integral part of me feeling all right, mentally and physically. I love that section of the book i think it from recollection i think it's at the start of the chapter about yoga and meditation is that right that's my favorite chapter and i'll tell you why shortly um but you start off that chapter with a question you know you know you sort of pose that question to the audience to the reader can you have true wellness without spirituality and in you know your beautiful way you you know you don't judge people that they may have a different view to you you know you really I feel you really hold people's hands along as they're sort of reading you know your journey but then you you're very clear in your view which is you from my

understanding of reading the book it's that you cannot have full wellness without spirituality that's the conclusion I've personally come to um and a lot of the stuff that I talk about in the book can be used without that sort of thought process or belief or very visceral feeling at times. Fine, you know, if you just want to do yoga to keep fit, who am I to judge? You know, do what you want. If you want to do meditation just so you're more focused at work, I don't care, you know, fine. But for me, I want to feel connected to something else. And I think going back to grief, because I'm sort of in it, it does that to you. And I remember having this conversation on my podcast with Ashley Kane, who had lost his daughter. talked so beautifully and honestly and eloquently about being in grief and that you do feel so connected to everything because you you have to be you're so aware of that transition and of that loss but also that beautiful love that you've been gifted and that you've experienced in life and

I felt that last night sort of looking out my bedroom window and there was really clear night, all the stars. And I felt more connected than I have in months because of that profound thing that I just sort of witnessed. So without that, you've just got an animal or whatever your situation, a human, and they've stopped breathing. And that is, on a medical level, that's what's happened. But it's so much more than that. And if we've lost anyone in life, what's happened but it's so much more than that and if we've lost anyone in life you know that it's so much bigger than that and i think we also get to put our own meaning on things we get to choose how we do that right it doesn't doesn't matter what someone else does choose the story that works for you there was a it's interesting

we're talking about this. I wasn't going to get to this till later, but I think towards the end of the book, you talk about nature and I think daffodils at some point and how you really, we really feel that connection, don't we, when we're in nature. And I remember dad died right at the start of spring and it was about two in the morning. And by the time, you know, they come in the hospital, And I remember dad died right at the start of spring.

And it was about two in the morning. And by the time, you know, they come in the hostel, they're taking the body. And by the time we'd got home, I'd got home. I think I saw Vid and the kids. And then I went to stay with mum. And I got into the drive in the house where I grew up, where mum still lives. And it was like the first or second day of spring. There were all of these daffodils that dad had planted. And at the time I just thought, oh, this is cool. You know, isn't it ace how, you know, dad's flowers are

coming out. But now I think, oh, well well maybe there's something bigger there you know maybe that was the universe or dad on some level just you know I don't know you know a real connection. It's hard to talk it's hard to explain it because it is often very feeling based and that's such a beautiful story and so lovely because it is this sort of continuation of life and you know nature is there to show us that even with just the four seasons that we experience that those beautiful daffodils come up and then they the flowers the petals fall off and then we're into another season and the leaves fall off the trees everything is bare and everything is resting and then it all pushes back up in spring again and we often rally against all of that in

our daily lives we try and push and push ourselves relentlessly without honoring when we need to hibernate or to shed things in our life and when to regenerate and I think nature is it's the most obvious way of looking at that but it's also the most beautiful because we can see it if we're aware of it. And going back to the start of your question, it's so important to know that we have complete autonomy over what the meaning is. We can put intention, our intention, good intention, benevolent intention behind anything we want. And then it has meaning. So you don't have to have this prescribed look at wellbeing or spirituality where if you waft a certain incense around, it does something. You can do whatever you want. It could be planting

flowers with intention that it has meaning behind it. It can be anything you want. It's your, it's your thing. It's your meaning. it's your thing it's your meaning it's your ritual it's your ceremony this is not prescribed stuff which often the well-being world is if you do yoga if you eat this whatever this is the opposite it's your inherent and innate sense of what your intention is i mean you mentioned the term prescribing there and the real sense I get through your book is this real feeling that this is not a prescription. This is not the Fern Cosson methods, right? I don't have one. This is a, it's kind of like a gentle exploration into a variety of different areas. So, hey, listen, look, have you thought about this,

right? I've tried this and this is what's happened. This is where I struggle. This is where it's really helped me. What do you think? Yeah. I think that's a lovely approach. Yeah. Like who am I to tell people what to do? I'm just bumbling along like everybody else, trying my best and making mistakes and figuring things out. And I'm never going to come at any subject from an angle of expertise or I've nailed this. I want to show my vulnerabilities and I'm getting things wrong and that some stuff doesn't work for me. But then other stuff is to alleviate other people from stuff they're going through, whether it's physical, mental, or a lack of general connection. So it was just a chance for me to play around and talk to interesting people and try new things out.

And as I said in the book, it was game-changing. It's just been a game-changing year. It's been painful in a lot of ways, but it's been really beautiful and game-changing. And I feel very grateful that I went through the process of it. What's been so game-changing and I feel very grateful that I went through the process of it. What's been so game-changing about it? A lot of shedding old beliefs that just don't serve me anymore. Some very much based around my career and my self-worth which is all, well was very

tangled up in a big messy knot because when you've been on the tv since the age of 15 people are going to tell you what they think of you and you start to believe it and then you start to lose a sense of who you are so I've gained me back in a sense and I know what I'm about and what I like and I'm not going to have so much input from other people on what that is for me. And just also, yeah, on a connectivity level of learning some really cool new techniques to help me honor moments in life and to honor the beauty and the pain of life and to really lean into that rather than I think the modern day remedy is to push through to numb to do something to distract yourself um that's what we try and do isn't it we don't want to feel pain and sometimes we don't want to feel happiness because then we're scared it's going to go so we'll do anything we

can to distract ourselves to go on our phones to shop to eat to drink or whatever and I found myself last night not even wanting to look at my phone I just thought I need to sit in this loss and this pain and I want to be present with it and I want to feel it and I didn't want to distract myself and I probably would have been dealt with that very differently a year ago and it's the same with other mishaps in my life where I've tried to bury my head in the sand or I've tried to ignore it and we know that that's almost impossible um so I've learned some really lovely ways of yeah honoring life and it not being all about like the exterior stuff but like the inside job and how amazing that can feel you're obviously very associated well I say obviously for

people I can't imagine there's many people who don't know who you are Fern but for I've got a sizable audience in America as well Fern is I would say probably one of the most famous people in the country I don't know how that sits with you. I never understand fame. I never can quantify it or it still feels very alien to me after all these years. So I don't know. Yeah. A lot of people know who you are in the UK. People know my voice more than anything. I can go very unnoticed and then I ask to buy a cup of tea and everyone looks. It's that kind of thing going on a lot. And it's fascinating to me how you have sort of dealt with that how you do deal with that today and how that's changed but like a lot of people know who you are over

the last few years and particularly you're very much associated with happy place and happiness and so when I hear you say this has been a transformative year you've learned so much, you've shed layers, you've got rid of stuff, you're lighter now. You were writing about being happy five years ago, yet you're still on this journey, this progression of shedding layers, right? So it's not as if it was a destination you got to and now you're done right I'm interested in your relationship with happiness given how transformative this year has been are you happier now in general than you were five years ago in ways yes I think this is a everlasting job once you delve into it because some people

never do and that's fine you know they're happy just sort of going through life without you know looking through their dirty laundry but once you start it's very hard to stop oh yeah it's really hard to stop and I lifted that lid yeah well personally before that probably 10 years ago out of necessity because my kind of life fell apart to some extent and I had no choice but to sort of start from the ground up and once you've lifted that lid you're in and it is never ending because there's always stuff to untangle there's always stuff to work out life's going to happen things are going to happen out of the blue that you don't like you know people might say things or have judgments or there's a pandemic or whatever's going on you know we're out of control

but I'm definitely I don't know I guess I am generally happier that's not to say I'm like walking around singing all day and skipping through meadows it's very up and down still and I know my own cycles of sort of overwork, overwhelm, stress, fall apart, feel like absolute death, rise from the flames like a phoenix, feel so amazing, go through the cycle again. Like every two weeks, that's me. Like nature. Like nature. Like on a real quick spin. So I'm doing that a lot.

And I think I probably always will. It's just, you know, probably to a lesser degree, but it's kind of how I am. But five years ago, I was still very much caught up in some very negative thoughts about myself, still experiencing very, very regular anxiety and panic attacks. And some, one of the reasons why I'm not so much today is because I've made choices that mean I'm not putting myself in that position where I'll have one. But I've actually also done a lot of work to try and help with that as well. So a very specific example is I found it absolutely impossible to drive on the motorway from five years ago. I just had one panic attack on the motorway.

I couldn't go on it again or the freeway if you're in the States. And I just thought, no, I'm not doing that again. Never driving on the motorway again. And then it became quite debilitating if we needed to go anywhere and my husband wasn't around, et cetera. We've got family who live all over the country. So I did a lot of work on that spiritually and otherwise. I think it's nice to combine the two. So I did EMDR therapy and also some sort of spiritual releasing work around it all. And I have been able to drive on the motorway for the last six months. Amazing. I've done it quite a few times now.

I haven't done it for a couple of months, which I need to sort of rectify. So I know it's possible in other areas. But also, I don't know if I want to fix it in some areas. I don't know if I want to put myself in the position that more the positions, because there's many that bring that on, namely live TV. I don't know if I want to do that. Do I want to feel so on edge knowing that any moment I could mess up and people judge me and the abuse that, you know, social media can create? I don't know if I want that anymore. I don't know if I want it badly enough. I used to badly, badly want to succeed in TV specifically.

There was very else, a little else to do anyway. Podcast didn't exist, etc. So I thought that was everything. And I don't anymore. Why do you think you don't want it as bad anymore? Is part of that because at some point in your life, succeeding and therefore success was tied up with your sense of who you were, how you saw yourself. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system,

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doubling the five free travel packs to 10. And these packs are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. Oh, yeah. I mean, TV will do that to you if you've been on it that long as well. Your whole identity is people knowing well who they think you are and it seems like sort of a linear ascent to becoming Ant and Dec or whoever you love on the telly you just keep climbing and you keep climbing and then you're on the biggest show but I'd never

really thought about and then what you know what does that mean yeah I was just doing it and um it's you know most people will think oh it must be amazing being on the tv fabulous like how exciting you know some bits are there's some great opportunities and you might meet some very cool people you might even be lucky enough to have traveled with it I certainly was in my 20s but it's also really horrible you know if you're a sensitive person I definitely am you've got constant feedback constant relentless feedback from people you don't know who think they know you but they don't know you um and also the industry is tough you know you're never you know there's probably a few people that are safe in their jobs and tech being two of them but there are very few I definitely never got to that level of safety,

ever. I never, ever got to the level where, oh, I don't have to worry about that. I'll still be hired. I've been sacked from TV more times than I can count without explanation, without a phone call, without anyone saying, look, this is the reason we've made the decision you just disappear and some people were like yeah and so that's how it works cool i'm not that person i'm sensitive i take things personally um i can fall into the perfectionist sort of shame cycle so it's affected me really badly over the years so yeah i think I've outgrown that sort of need yeah put it there love it um on a very different trajectory to you I certainly can resonate with certain aspects of that about letting go of what other people think that you should be doing or how you should be doing things it's like

I've finally got to that place which feels great where it's like nothing to do with me do you your opinion great have it go for it it's you don't you know it's it's it is very very freeing but it in my experience anyway it doesn't happen overnight we don't just go okay I'm bothered about what other people think about me. I'm going to wake up tomorrow and I'm not going to be bothered anymore. It doesn't work like that, does it? No, because I still do care what people think about me, if I'm honest. It's not like I've rid myself entirely. I'm just not willing to take it on as frequently and on the level that I used to. So I've found my own little comfort bubble now with doing the podcast and writing and other happy place projects we're doing where if people like

the work, they'll find us. I'm not being forced into people's homes via their TV or their radio so much anymore. If people like what I'm doing and it resonates, oh, brilliant. What a beautiful feeling. Please come and listen, watch whatever we're doing, take part in it if it's helpful. But I'm not there for the sake of it. People are choosing to consume your content. Which is great. And it might be smaller.

It might be on a, you know, less fireworky sort of level. But I'm comfortable with that my nervous system is comfortable with that and you know occasionally you'll still get like a bit of an ego dent where I remember someone saying who I'd known in TV for a long time um from like way back when I was a teenager and they were like oh my god what do you do these days do you work and I was like oh oh my god I can work every day really hard I've never ever been so busy and then I was like why am I I was like yeah I'm really happy I'm doing loads of stuff that I love like you don't have to know about it it's fine but so I think you get the odd ego then every now and again and you just brush it off and move on but you know I still want people to like the work I'm doing but I just

but because it's mine and I believe in it there's less of a risk for me because if people don't like it it's just not resonated whereas when it was tv stuff I was doing before it was more like I just want to be perfect on the telly and for people to like me it doesn't matter what I'm saying or if I believe in the subject matter and that then hurts a lot more when people go, you're an idiot, you're annoying, whatever it might be. And of course, then a lot of people will see you and think, well, she's got it all, right?

She's been on telly. She's presented a big Radio 1 show. She had Live Lounge, all these incredible artists playing in front of her. There can be a perception sometimes, which is I think it's so powerful the way you do share not only in this book but just in your work in general your struggles i think it is very very i don't know it's refreshing it's just reassuring for people to go oh wow are we even firm struggling with that like it makes people feel better I think in some

way that oh I'm not alone in my struggle because people do think when I'm successful when I've got that job when I've got that pay rise when I can afford a nicer car I'm going to be happy yet we see countless examples of people in the public eye who have ticks off all those boxes, yet are really, really struggling on the inside. Or at the worst, take their own life. We've seen this happen countless times. So we know that equation doesn't work. And I get it. I will look at shiny people in Hollywood and think, oh, my God, they must have the most amazing.

I fall into that trap, of course. It's all relative isn't it it is but you know and also i understand it because and also we have to be real here if you're under the poverty line of course having enough money to feed your kids to have your heating on to be able to get your kids to school to get yourself to work is going to make a huge difference to your well-being and you know i'm not i'm not ignorant to that but when we look at general happiness and feeling well mentally physically whatever it is having a nicer car or you know i could give a shit about cars we've got like the crappiest car in the world but you'll see when i give you a look to the station later you're like really he drives this i couldn't give a shit about cars i honestly

mine's covered in kids food and i couldn't give a crap but whatever it might be or like but you haven't got a tape up wing mirror on the side there have you don't have that you have beat me on that one you beat me on that one i think you know if we even look at sort of women you know You have beat me on that one. You beat me on that one. I think, you know, if we even look at sort of women, you know, back in my 20s, I did used to feel judged on what I was wearing. Like this is a real shallow example, but I felt like I had to be ahead and like with the trends and what, you know, what designer would want to give me clothes or whatever. I mean, that to me, I can't even understand my own thinking on that one. I'm so far from it these days. But I thought if I looked a certain way, I would feel better. People would accept me more. People would see me as a shiny, brilliant person. You don't feel it inside still if you're going through stuff. Now I wear pretty much the same jeans every day. I wear trainers every day. I don't give a crap about all of that stuff because I know it doesn't work. That's a really silly, shallow example, but I think we can so easily look at people wearing designer clothes on the red carpet, la la la. Oh my God, being on a red carpet is probably one of the most excruciatingly awkward

and pointless things ever, but we still celebrate all this stuff. And, you know, as I said, I get it. I fall into that trap and I understand it. But what we can't do is confuse it with that stuff keeping you safe from life happening. And when I say life happening, I mean terrible situations coming into your life, whether it's loss or unexpected awful things or whatever it is. And I have had that, as many people out there have. It doesn't stop that stuff happening. It cannot. You are not safe from any of it.

So, you know, I get it. I get it if people still judge me on that now. That's absolutely fine. I'm not telling my stories to get sympathy or anything like that. I want to alleviate people of feeling on their own because I know from certainly being in deep shame at one point and also from having panic attacks, you feel like you are the only person on the planet going through it,

like nobody else who you're working with or know could possibly be going through this level of hell and millions of people are so i would like to feel a level of connection with the people reading books or listening to the podcast that we are all in it together we're all in it together a sort of key kind of underlying theme i'm getting from you is intentionality. It's making conscious choices, not just falling into the trap of feeling discomfort and reflexively just distracting yourself with whichever method of choice we may have it's very much a case of no no what I've that's what I'm hearing anyway that you live a much more intentional life now where you're aware of these patterns you're aware that you could go down one path but sometimes

you're choosing to go down a different path is that fair to say yeah but unfortunately I am still in that cycle in the fact that I distract myself with work and I pretend that it's like this is really beneficial because it's helping other people and it's another project I'm getting away and it's creative it's good for me but I don't give myself enough time to stop and go first of all what is really is really going on? Why am I at this point in my little cycle of falling apart, feeling amazing, whatever it is? And what am I doing for me? Why do I not believe that I deserve to just feel okay? Why am I pushing myself so hard? Like, what is this for? So I'm still in that. But before I had way more destructive methods of distracting myself. Now they just seem a bit healthier, but they're still there basically. And I'm aware of it. I wasn't aware before. I was not aware. I was just like, this is me trying to cope in life.

Whereas now I go, oh my God, why am I still doing emails at 8pm after my kids have gone to bed and feeling so anxious about the podcast I've got coming up and pushing myself this much? Like I know I'm doing it. I just haven't stopped myself from doing that yet. I'm scared. Awareness is key though, isn't it? Awareness is a massive, massive step. A lot of people will say, I think, I've had this, you know, with patients before, even, you know, on social media, okay, now that I'm aware, I can see it all, but you know, what do I do about it? And first of all, I think it's different for all of us. Secondly, I think we all do it at different paces, but I don't think we should

underestimate how important just lifting the blinds off and actually going, oh, I'm doing that again. Because for much of our life, we're doing it. We don't even realise we're doing it. We don't even know. I had the biggest realisation this month. This sounds so obvious, but when it's you, as you say, you don't see see it when I feel out of control or my world my exterior world seems out of control I get super controlling yeah like insane I'm checking my husband's cook the right dinner for the kids like he can't do that on his own he's like a 45 year old really good cook what am I doing or I'm like just overly planning everything and being so rigid with everything because I feel terrified that everything feels out of control. I only realized that this month. So I've done 40 years

of not seeing that when I feel out of control, I get more controlling. That's terrifying, but that's, you know, it's a nice realization. Okay. I know that I do that now. It is. It's a massive realization. It's, um, you can't really make that change without it, I don't think. Nope. You have to know about it first. You've got to know about it. And I don't know, at the time of year, we're recording this middle of December, but it won't come out until January. Like, you know, I think a lot about New Year's resolutions, right? And I think this plays into what you're just speaking about there, this idea that I don't make them anymore. I used to.

I just, I feel like I've been writing about this as well and really thinking about, I think the reason why most resolutions don't work in the long term, like because anyone can go a two-week something in January or punish themselves four times a week, spinning for three weeks. People will have done that over and over again, but very rarely for most people does it continue. And I think fundamentally it's because most New Year's resolutions are coming from a place of lack and not a place of love and abundance and fullness. And so therefore we're just, we're trying to fill this hole that we have some way with that resolution, but then that ain't ever going to fill the hole. So after a time it just cracks apart and then we just, we wait for the next plan or the next book to go, right, I'm going to hit it hard now, but it just doesn't work for most people. I think the only resolution worth making is that you're going to be nicer to yourself.

100%. It's the only one that we should bother doing because I don't do it enough. I'm horrible to myself sometimes. Sometimes I can find proper, true self-compassion and I will act on it and make the right decision and I've done that this December with like not going to any Christmas parties because I'm not in that frame of mind and I don't want to go so I've decided for me I'm not doing that and the repercussions will be whatever they are I'll be judged on that but normally I'm quite punishing towards myself and how yeah like the lacking thing I'm quite punishing towards myself and how, yeah, like the lacking thing.

I'm not doing well enough. This project didn't, you know, blow up like I wanted it to. We didn't reach enough people or whatever it might be. And I don't stop to go, I put everything into that. And I'm really glad that I did that. And I'm really proud that I wrote that book. I think some of that for me is I always second guess the general public's thought of process. Well, that person's not going to like it.

Or they'll say it's a pile of shit. Or they'll say, well, why are you congratulating yourself? I've been so indoctrinated by that over the years that I'm still trying to let go of all that and just be proud of creating something that I'm really happy with. We should be very proud because people love Happy Place. It's clearly making a massive difference in so many people's lives. And it's a great podcast. I love doing it. It's an honour to do it. You know, I'm sure you feel the same. I get to sit and just have like these beautiful conversations that I

don't even have with my friends. I don't have that level of conversation with my friends it would be weird to but people allow me to go there that is a privilege it's nuts isn't it there's something about this format where we're sitting on this little table we've got mics in front of us and like I'm you know as a fellow podcast hosts I'm genuinely interested as to that perspective because I've I kind of feel that I feel podcasts are the modern day campfire they you know you you get into people's lives you you help bring connection even if they're isolated somewhere as they go on their walk or they're cleaning the house you know they feel that there's an intimate conversation going on. They're almost part off. And I feel that podcasting for me, there's a few things it's given me,

but it's taught me to be more mindful and present because I go super long. Sometimes it's two hours on my show. And that's two hours with no phone distraction where both parties by and large are truly present and in and I sometimes go out thinking I don't think I've ever done that with my wife I know or not for a long time and we do talk about her coming on the show and she keeps sort of hinting that she will at some point I've had the same with my husband yeah like it would be an interesting dynamic. You could say that again. But what do you feel it's given you personally? Yes, it helps

millions of people, right? But what about for you? What has it done for you? It's so hard to answer that question. It's done so so much for me I've had some of the most important conversations in my life in that space and I have learned so much about so many subjects that I could never have an understanding of because I haven't experienced them and that's a privilege that people are willing to share their story and for as long as I can remember I've been near obsessed with people's stories storytelling is my favorite thing ever especially when it's someone's life story I find life decisions and other people's perspective perspectives fascinating and I will never ever tire of that you know autobiographies are my favorite type of book by far.

I want to hear about people's choices, decisions, their learnings. That to me is fascinating. So I've learned so much. And also, I guess on a more practical level, I've learned to listen properly. And I didn't do that so much in my career before because I didn't have time. Like if I was doing the radio

show like the live lounge I maybe had like six minutes to chat to someone I haven't got time to listen I'm pressing buttons I'm working out what I'm going to say next I'm just trying to get through it whereas now I'm properly listening and it's hopefully helped me to do that in my actual life a bit better as well. By no means perfect. I'm sure my mum would go, hey, that's not quite right, and might say that I don't listen as much as I'm professing to, but it's definitely given me, yeah, a bigger listening capacity, I guess. Yeah, which is super important for everything.

You know what actually, that that really does when and I've learned this again only in the last year probably that listening is often enough I think we assume we've got to fix people and when someone tells us their problems that we've got to go oh my god this is what you should do I know what you should do here talk to this person or do that and sometimes I do still fall into that because I get a buzz out of people genuinely finding solutions. But sometimes, and you'll know when, when it's a dire situation, when someone is really not in a great place, listening is enough. Just saying, I hear you and I'm here and your words are going in and I'm listening and I know this is important to you.

Yeah. Listening is medicine. I have learned this on many occasions throughout my career, but there's one particular patient I can remember where, I think I've shared this on the show before. I can't remember now. We do so many shows. It's hard to know. Have I said this on the show before I can't remember now I do so many shows it's hard to know have I said this on the show I did the same we're turning into grandparents and the kids are going oh you've told us this before shut up yeah although my wife edits the shows it's only she's like wrong why have you told that story again I'm like did I did I really tell that again but there was this young lady who early on in i was doing sort of working in hospitals doing my specialist stuff and then when i moved to general practice i remember

a lady coming in a young lady um really struggling with moods depression um low motivation and you know my guidelines literally were pointing me I was you know I think it was my first or second week as a GP and I'd worked in hospitals for years so I was an experienced daughter but in that moment I was like I I don't really feel like putting her in that box and giving her an antidepressant it doesn't feel right so what I did I literally just spent time with her and she spoke to me and I listened and I would see her again I said listen um I think we need a bit longer can I put you in for a double appointment later on in the week she goes okay so she comes back within about four to six weeks she was like a different person right right? Her mood had lifted.

She had figured out herself what was going on in her life. She'd figured out how she had started to develop kind of unhealthy patterns. And I provided something for her that she didn't have in her life. I was someone who didn't judge her, right? Because I wasn't part of her network she probably felt more open she could just tell me stuff that she probably couldn't tell her friends or a family because they'd try and give her a solution and I I didn't know it at the time I was just a young guy trying to do my best for that lady in front of me but I've often reflected on that and it was

through listening the power of listening it was medicine for her because i don't think any of us have that in our lives as much as maybe people did back in the day because you know technology has taken over to an extent we're much more distracted we spend way too much time on screens and not enough time present with people. And a lot of people feel acutely lonely because they don't have that. That's what they're missing, being heard, being listened to. And I've even had that. You know, I waffle on maybe on the podcast or radio and people think, oh, everyone's listening to you.

But people that truly listen, that are holding you in that time and space, that's quite rare. I'm very lucky that I have that with family and my husband, certainly. But there are many people that don't have that at all. And it is probably the cause for a lot of, you know, really bad mental health. Yeah, we don't have it much anymore. It reminds me of a very powerful part of your new book, Fern, where you described at 19 years old old you had your own flat somewhere in

London and you were you're talking about your auntie coming round my auntie Karen and then there was a line there I think I've been there's lots of scribbles on here there's lots of scribbles which is always a sign of when I've been truly fascinated by a book. And it was something like, this was back in the time where people didn't feel the need to call or text before they came round. And that hit me right there, because I thought, okay, this is fascinating. Is she saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? And then if we reflect on that, your book, at its core, it is about a connection, really, isn't it? It's about connection. And I'm thinking, well, there's many things that have evolved in a negative manner in society. And this kind of whole idea that we have to text someone or before, oh, is it all right

if I call you at eight tonight? It's like, when did that come in? I I know when my phone rings and I'm not expecting it I feel really panicked yeah but what what happened there how did that sort of get part of culture I don't know it's really weird and and it's strange because we have much less human contact because of it but we're so overly available we're so overly available I talked to Jamie Oliver about this on my podcast recently because he was saying he'll come home from work and he wants to be available to his team. He's not like speak to my PA. He wants to be on hand. So you could just be up all night texting, emailing. You're not having any, and sometimes you have to for work, but in our everyday lives, we're not having that deep, meaningful connection where your auntie does just pop round and you have this really spontaneous, ad hoc, beautiful moment.

It's all planned. And I was thinking about it recently myself because my friend Lindell, who passed away this year, one of my favorite times I had with her was when I was weirdly outside my front door. I don't know if I was putting the bins out or whatever, but she drove past my house and I was like, oh my God, Linda, and I flagged her down. She ended up coming in the house. We spent like two hours. We actually had a cup of tea. Then we cracked a bottle of wine open.

She had a little half cheeky glass of red wine. We just chatted for two hours. It was not planned in my diary. And that memory sticks out because of that. It wasn't just another shall we meet up what time texting it was just this beautiful synchronized moment I don't want to lose that but we sort of are that those moments are going in many ways it's like in some ways unplanned connection might have additional benefits to plan connection. I think so.

Like, you know, when you bump into someone just sort of randomly, it's such a beautiful, spontaneous moment that you haven't overthought. You're not worrying about, you know, what you're going to say or not. You're just in this sort of beautiful, synchronized, fateful moment.

It's really special. Yeah, and you sort of, those moments often when you don't have had someone text to arrange it you know i'm really busy yeah yeah can't be bothered or you you're too busy but actually in the moment when you're there it's just who we are we're social owners when we we see we're like you know what sod it let's just have a coffee yeah let's just have a drink it's the best they're the're the best. And you know what? You still get everything done afterwards when you need to. It's important.

It is. It's important. And sometimes I think the bigger powers that be, again, whatever you want to call that, higher power, the universe, sometimes they are just sent to you to sort of stop you in your tracks. Like enjoy life.

Enjoy this person. Enjoy that union. You know, you'll get all your emails done later if you can even be bothered then, you know. Enjoy that little special connection because I think, again, going back to grief, you know, when you lose people or animals, whatever it is,

that's when you're looking for those moments. You're not thinking, I'm so glad I did all my emails on that day. You're thinking, God, remember that amazing time when Lindell just rocked up to my house and we ended up having like a two- tea session like amazing you know that that is the spare the special moments you'll grab hold of at the end of your life what we consider special moments is something

that i think i certainly think about a lot and I think it can teach us so much. I've actually got an exercise in my next book. I might even try it now. Actually, you up for it? Yeah. It's very simple, right? It's kind of like, okay, I don't think I've done this with anyone on the show before. So, okay, let's see how this goes.

It's dead simple. I think it's deceptively simple. with anyone on the show before so okay let's see how this goes it's dead simple i think it's deceptively simple so if i was to ask you what are three things that bring you true happiness contentment peace what would you say family time feel very very safe and connected in family time. Being by the sea, I don't think I've ever had a moment where I felt disconnected when I'm by the sea. And this sounds really cheesy,

but it feels like I strongly need to say it. And it's times when there's been true true kindness whether it's me from my heart giving someone kindness or them giving it back to me that feels magical almost um and it's not given today unfortunately so those moments stand out of that it makes your sort of skin tingle a little bit when you know that either you've helped someone or they've really helped you i can think of loads of moments where i've been on the receiving end and the other way around where it's felt yeah like very real i love that so family time spending time by the sea and a true moment of kindness okay so that's the first part of the exercise so it's defined three

happiness habits which you just have so um in the last week do you feel you have managed to do those three happiness habits um not see one unfortunately but family time most definitely we've had obviously we're in december so we've had like the cutest christmas play ever to cry to and we've done lots of snuggling on the sofa watching we watched that amazing new film a boy called christmas and I bawled my eyes out. I'm going to watch it at the weekend. It's so special. Matt Haig is a genius. And so we've had some very cosy, lovely family time.

And kindness, yeah. I've definitely been on the receiving end of it, like even by my husband last night, who was so wonderful, you you know watching little lula pass away and he was totally wholeheartedly there for me um and i hope that i've done the same for i don't need to sort of brag about any of these moments but i always try and do quiet things i don't need to have on Instagram or in the public eye that are cheering people up a little bit knowing that I'm thinking of them um so I've done I've done two out of the three okay

great and you're obviously someone who's thought about this a lot anyway you know it's your it's what you do with your podcasts and your books you help people with this stuff And then so the second part is, you know, write your happy ending. So imagine you are at the end of life. What are three things if you look back on your life you will have want to have done? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. It is called The Thrive Tour.

Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health. And together, we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour,

and I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision-making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are,

of course, many different ways to journal and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people Telling me how much this has helped them And how much more in control of their lives they now feel

Now if you already have a journal Or you don't actually want to buy a journal That is completely fine I go through in detail all of the questions Within the three question journal Completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app.

the first one is so obvious to me and that is integrity which is almost a hybrid of sort of integrity and authenticity yeah like knowing that i got to a place probably very incrementally of being the true essence of who i am and what i'm here to do and to treat people kindly and to and to have integrity I think means that you have to do that because you're always doing the thing that you know is inherently right rather than trying to get ahead you know cutting a corner that sort of thing so so the first one is sort of integrity, authenticity. The second one, which I think is almost impossible for a human, is to keep my side of the street as clean as possible. So when I have messed up, when I have made a mistake, when I have upset someone, to try to find either peace with it

and acceptance because sometimes you can't rectify those moments. The other person is not ready, willing or energetically in the space but at least you know you've done all you can in that circumstance um so that i don't have to lug such a heavy load around with me of regret or feeling like i didn't act with integrity. And I guess the last one is to hopefully be at that point in life, just very surrounded by love. I like, you know, we'll get rid of anyone or anything that isn't serving me and the situation well, and I'm surrounded by love.

Yeah, I love it. And the point of those two exercises is to see if they're aligned, right? So to see if every week, I say that these things are making me happy, right? So am I doing them? And then what are the three things at the end of life that I will want to have done?

And then you think, well, are these three things that I'm trying to do weekly, are they going to get you to that happy ending and i i think it's i think it's a beautiful exercise that can can have a real deceptive simplicity but yeah i see an alignment already with you because you said at the end of uh you're right at the end integrity and authenticity that's that's a key thing well you are displaying regular acts of kindness and receiving them, right? Kindness is who we are. That's kind of who we want to be. So I would say that's pretty aligned.

You want to be surrounded by love, right? Well, you are making time for your family on a weekly basis. And obviously in the last seven days, you said you've been doing that. So, you know, the C, been doing that so yeah you know the sea okay that's you know that's a trickier one in terms of you know what we do but I don't you know what I mean it's kind of like just about it's a big question that potentially can align us to go well maybe instead of chasing the wrong stuff each week if I spend time with my family do an act of kindness and whatever else then oh I'm going to get that

happy ending that I'd like. The integrity one has really got me thinking. It's a beautiful, beautiful exercise. And I know that's how I want to feel at the end of my life, whenever that is. I don't always think that I act from that place place I think I still do get tied up too much in oh am I doing my best do people think that I'm succeeding is this project even worth doing will people care and I I want to get more and more emphatically aligned with this is what I believe to be right and it doesn't matter what other people think I think you're doing a great job I'm trying I think you're doing a great job and it's a progression isn't it it's not as if we suddenly do an exercise go oh cool i've sorted out exactly i'm done well that's the thing isn't

it with all of the stuff that you and i are doing we want to put out thoughts and ideas but you know you can't ever just read one book watch one documentary do one mindfulness course and be, you know, fixed or whatever it might be. I'm, as I said earlier, I'm in this for life now. Once you start down this road, it's endless. And I'm not looking for any quick fixes. There's going to be bits where I feel like it's aligning and bits where it's not. And that's all right. The chapter on yoga and meditation, I loved it like i thought i could even do a two-hour conversation just on this chapter because there was just so much in it including the language you use to describe certain things which i found fascinating um and it really speaks to this idea that can you have wellness without spirituality that we were discussing. And I think people are on different stages of the

journey, aren't they? For some people, it's like, well, yeah, I want to do yoga because it's going to make me look better. So that could be the initial motivation to get them to engage. Fine. Exactly. But at some point, that may change, but it may not as well. And there was a big piece in this chapter, I think, about how we sometimes miss the big picture of these things. So I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about kind of your relationship with yoga and how that's evolved over the years. So I definitely started doing it because I thought this is a new challenge. Let's see if I can be good at this. Because I was a dancer as a kid for years and years from like five to eighteen

I danced literally every day and I just went to like a local dance school in northwest London nothing fancy but it was my everything so I thought I'm gonna be good at this because I'm flexible and I'm strong and I'm I understand how to isolate muscles etc So I went into it most definitely with a two-dimensional outlook, shall we say, on it. And I found it really hard. It was really alien to my body. It felt like painfully slow and my head would be racing with thoughts and be looking at everybody else. How can they can do this? And I can't do this. And, you know, I like many people when they go to yoga or I'll say to my friends come to yoga class oh I won't be any good at that and I understand that you know that's where I started this is like 10 years ago it wasn't until probably about four or five years ago where I started to feel something when I was doing it. And it was a feeling of, it's a really sort of juicy, amazing feeling

that's hard to explain, but it was like, I'm fully present in my body and in my skin without any judgment of what I'm doing or not doing. And it feels incredible. Like Jambo, who I interview in the book, he, I think, calls it body bliss. And it's this tingling, amazing sensation of you're not pushing yourself into a painful position. It could be something that looks like you're doing nothing. But there's just such an amazing sort of cycle of energy going on. And, you know, your head could still be racing. of energy going on and you know your head could still be racing it's not like we're looking for this like on this like you know blank brain that people occasionally think mindfulness meditational yoga might give you but it certainly just felt right and every time I do it now I just

feel like what am I worrying about all this crap for you It just bypasses all the bollocks and the crap that I worry about and gets me into what's real, which is I am breathing. My heart is pumping blood around my body. I'm lucky enough to be able to move it. It's gratitude. It's grounding. It's really hard to explain, but it's a visceral experience that I certainly wasn't getting for about the first five years what were you getting in the first five years this feels too hard I can't do this for an hour oh my god why am I persisting with this shit you know I found it so hard really felt alien to me and like I would never enjoy it and then I stopped trying so hard I guess and that's what I want to mimic in my actual life because I get it with yoga like I'm

I'm not trying so hard now I'm just feeling but in my actual life I'm still often trying quite hard to do something to get somewhere without feeling the experience of it it's so interesting I bet you there are so many people listening who thought or you think that's either their current experience of some form of movement particularly yoga and how that's evolved it's yeah it's kind of interesting it's it I love the way you you sort of are calling or showing yoga as a mirror for the rest of your life. It's just a little micro sort of way of experiencing how you, or how you use, no, how you do approach other things, how you're changing it within yoga. But again, it comes to that awareness piece, right? Because now you're seeing it.

Yeah. And also the speed of yoga, which is slow. You can do quite a fiery vinyasa flow still, which is very fluid yoga, but it's by no means fast. It's considered. It's thoughtful. You're not in a rush. You're not in a competition. And I would love to apply that fully to my life, especially my working life, where I often feel like I'm not quick enough.

I'm falling short. I'm not pushing myself enough. I need to take that thought process and plop it into my actual life. Yeah, it's a question I've been asking myself this year. I think it came up in my chat with Greg McKeown on the podcast. He wrote Essentialism and Effortless. I chat with Greg McKeown on the podcast. He wrote Essentialism and Effortless. And it's this question, and, you know, like you,

I've been writing a lot of books. And, you know, the first couple of books to get to the deadline, I would suffer at the end, right? It wouldn't feel as though it was a deadline unless I'd, you know. Felt stressed out. Yeah, exactly. Then that almost makes you feel, yeah, I've, I've left it all on the table. But this year I've been experimenting with this question, which is what would this look like if it was easy? And I've tried it a few times and it's been,

it's, you know, I've applied it on the podcast sometimes when I'm thinking, oh man, I've got too many to prepare this week. Why did I book them in so close I'm like what would this look like if it was easy and you feel your body changing just with that question so I think it comes down well this is me personally I don't know how you'd feel about it Rangan but for me it's a self-esteem issue because I have often felt like certainly like going right back to the start, I came from a suburban town, working class family. My dad was a sign writer until very recently for his whole life.

My mum worked four different jobs at any one time. The next thing I'm like in front of a TV camera with directors and lighting guys and sound technicians. And I'm like, what, me? I'm not good enough like as just me there has to be like I have to be more me or like more something I can't just be me that's insane and I have unfortunately taken that right through from 15 to 40 and I occasionally still go who's gonna read this like it's just me just. Like, I have to be extra or put more, like you say, pain into it. If I really suffered, then maybe there'll be some worth behind it.

Whereas I'm really trying to do the same as you and go, what if I just turned up as me? It's very much what I've done today for you. Luckily, I know you, so I'm in a trusted space. But, you know, on the train here, do I try and not feel so sad or, you know, be a happier version of me today for this, but I'm just going to be me and that's going to be good enough. And I'm trying to do that desperately. And I often find it hard when I've got international guests on the podcast that don't know me. So like when I had Brené Brown on,

podcasts that don't know me. So like when I had Brené Brown on, I wanted her to understand who I was from like five minutes in, because she had obviously no clue who I was and no clue of, you know, what I do, my background, my thought processes. And I thought, I can't just be some random person. That's not enough. So I've got to like, feel super stressed before, super nervous, So I've got to like feel super stressed before, super nervous, really like show her who I am with all this effort. And what's the point? Like I have to get to a point. I'm not there yet. Down the line, hopefully, you know, in the next 10 years before I hit 50, I would like if there is any sort of goal applied to my life for it to be to just turn up as me. Yeah.

And for that to be enough. to just turn up as me yeah and for that to be enough it's funny because in so many ways that should be the easiest thing in the world yeah I know to do right to be you but it isn't nope like you've you've had a um you've had a long broadcasting career of course I said hat you are currently in the midst of a long broadcasting career you know one thing that I tried so hard to and I give huge credit to Gareth who's sitting here recording the conversation like is to not change my intonation when when this mic is in front of me. So can you, like, I remember when I first started going on BBC One and, you know, whether it's for my series, Doctor in the House, or whether it was to, you know,

talk on BBC Breakfast about a health issue. And you think, why are you putting on a voice? Why don't you just sound like you? why don't you just sound like you? And it's this kind of insidious infiltration of performatism, it's not even a word, being performative that we don't even realise we're doing. So actually to be us again, it's like there's a big journey back to actually how can you be you? And when I've really been up against it, I feel I've not had enough time to prep, let's say for a conversation, which does happen sometimes. Yeah, of course. Life gets in the way, things happen with the kids or, you know, I've got loads of patients

who are not well and I have to try and really figure out what's going on. Whatever it is, I've just gone, you know, just go and be you. You know how to have a conversation. Sit there, be present, listen and respond. Yeah. It's hard because when we show up as ourselves on any given day, there's so many things going on in your body and brain. And it could be stuff you're lugging around from the past.

It could be your idea of what you think people see you as, which can, you know, that can really derail you like, oh my God, I bet this person thinks I'm such an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about or whatever it might be in your line of work or your friendship circles. They probably think I'm so mouthy or whatever this story is we've created, we bring all that to the table and we're scared of showing it. And I've certainly realized in the last five years of my career, which is drastically different to the 20 years before that, I didn't say a thing about what was going on in my world before that.

I would be, hello, welcome to the show. Here's Justin Bieber, whatever the hell I was playing. There was no space to do that. And I certainly didn't feel comfortable doing it because I thought, God, people will really hate me if I say this is going on or I don't feel well or whatever it might be. Whereas what I've realized, and it was terrifying to start this process, is that when I show up and say, I feel really embarrassed about like, embarrassment's a big one because that's probably one of the hardest ones to admit I'm really embarrassed about this thing that happened to me or I feel really ashamed of how this has turned out or feeling really resentful

towards this person we feel like we'll be rejected and it's you know it must be some sort of prehistoric thing we don't want to be rejected we want to be part some sort of prehistoric thing. We don't want to be rejected. We want to be part of a gang, a team, the pack, so we survive. And although it's not necessarily important for our survival in modern day life, we still really feel it on a physical level. We don't want to be rejected. So we feel like we've got to turn up as our best selves

living our best lives and all this crap that I hate and it's like I've learned turning up as me and telling a lot of people the different varying good and bad things that are happening that usually forges connection I still don't always do it but I know that to be true and I remember Russell Brand saying something about that or talking around this subject of we think that pain is the thing that's gonna alienate us from others but it's the thing that connects us it's the thing that glues us together so if we can show up as our true selves with all the stuff going on and the worries and the concerns or the insecurities we've got to find the connection there um you can't do it in all

spaces because i imagine if i rocked up to like the bbc in a meeting going uh people would go oh my god we're not hiring her i mean they don't hire me anyway so i've got nothing to lose but do you know what i mean it's there's there's sometimes a time and a place i guess and you feel it well there's there's boundaries aren't there There's the right space in which to share. You're right. You know, certainly that's something I've learned in my life as well. Open up, be yourself more, be vulnerable. And you bring people closer to you.

They want to help. They want to, you know, it's the common humanity. Yeah. But I imagine for you, and again, I don't know what it must be like to grow up in public in many ways. Do you feel your 20s, you had to grow up in public? Yeah, it was fucking horrible. Yeah. I didn't like that bit of it.

I loved the job and it was really exciting. You know, my 20s were wild. Like I look back and I think, how was that my life? It was wild. I'd be traveling from the states one day back to the UK host live a get flown out to do something in America do a show on NBC well it kind bits of it work because I'm still the girl from the suburbs who goes what the hell how am I like sat here interviewing whoever it might be or there's always been an element of surrealism in it for me 100 but when you make

mistakes or do things wrong or people are making commentary of what you're doing um I didn't realize how much it was affecting me at the time I don't think um but I do now because I look back and go holy shit what you know what was going on and I was physically unwell I was bulimic for 10 years so I was desperately looking for some control in a life that felt like I had no control over it because I was just being pulled every which way a lot of people fern of um you know I'm early 40s, right? So a lot of people my age are very, very thankful that social media did not exist. Oh my God. When we were teenagers or in our 20s,

when I was at uni, I was thinking, I am so glad that there is not a photographic record of everything that we went through. But if we sort of look at your life through that lens, yes, social media didn't exist, but the tabloids did. Yeah. And you were on TV and radio at a time when TV and radio was king, right? It wasn't like, I'm not saying it's not the same now,

but it's different now. There is lots of competing. There's internet, there's podcasts, there's YouTube, there's Netflix. There's, you know, back in the day, if you're on Radio 1 or BBC 1, you were a household name. So looking at your life through that lens, we are allowed, the public, to make mistakes, learn from them without people on a big level criticizing us, judging us. But I don't know what it was like for you in your 20s. It sounds very, very traumatic in many ways. But what's that like? What's it like having headlines written about various things that

are going on in your life? I feel sick thinking about it. If I'm honest, like how I feel even now discussing it, it makes me feel I'm happy to talk about it. I'm comfortable thinking about it. If I'm honest, like how I feel even now discussing it, it makes me feel I'm happy to talk about it. I'm comfortable talking about it because it's important, but it makes me feel sick to my stomach, like the worst anxiety. It's, you know, it sounds dramatic to use terms like PTSD. But when I think about how torn apart I've been by the press, I live with that anxiety every day. I'm terrified doing interviews. I don't enjoy doing photo shoots very much. I mean, I can deal with it. It's fine. fine. When the magazine comes out, I am not even going anywhere near it. I don't want to look at it. Um, I don't do live TV because I can't put myself in that position. Um, if there's, you know,

if I even get word that someone's writing something about me, I, I physically, I don't know how to deal with it. It sends me into the biggest spiral. I can't handle it. And it's meant that I've had to step down from a lot of jobs that are seemingly great. You know, I don't cover for Zubby on Radio 2 anymore because I don't feel physically or mentally able to cope in that environment. And I don't want people writing horrible things about me. And you know, it goes from the extremes of being completely torn apart. Like some points in my twenties, I was just annihilated by journalists and had all sorts of terrible things written about me. And then I

remember even in my thirties, like I was having a really bad time with panic attacks and they were really prevalent and I um said yes to hosting a live tv show that I probably shouldn't have because I wasn't mentally in a good place and I stuttered like we all do probably at least once a day or once a week or whatever and I was torn apart in the press there was a video of it on twitter you know I got and and it's very hard when you're already not in a good mind space a mindset to go oh yeah I made a mistake it's okay when you're in that state mentally you go there is something fundamentally wrong with me here I am a mistake. It's okay. When you're in that state mentally, you go, there is something fundamentally wrong with me here. I am a flawed person. I deserve to be pulled apart. I'm, you know, I'm a piece of shit. That's where I go to when that stuff happens. So I can't,

can't put myself in that position anymore. And I will be doing press for this book that I love and I believe in. And I'm doing it because I want people to know about my book. And I will be doing press for this book that I love and I believe in. And I'm doing it because I want people to know about my book. But I don't look forward to it. I've got a day of it next week and I already feel anxious about it and, you know, I feel very uncomfortable around being interviewed by journalists, knowing they want to get something out of me. The whole thing is deeply traumatising for me.

And it might sound dramatic. Some people might just think, oh, fuck off. What do you know about trauma? But that's the anxiety I live with because of it. It sounds very traumatic to me, actually. And I really appreciate you sharing that. We've been talking about authenticity and vulnerability. And we're all shaped by our past experiences, of course. Fern in her 40s, early 40s, 40, wants to be more vulnerable, more authentic, right?

But there's also this kind of presumably some sort of baggage from being properly burnt in public. Now on your own podcast, you can of course control the narrative, right? You and your team will put it out in a way that's comfortable for you, but you still cannot control what elements people will take from that and how they might interpret that and report it. So how does that past experience that you've had sort of, how does that intersect with your desire to be more vulnerable, be more authentic, not care what people say? You know, it seems like a very difficult thing to do because of what you've been through. I think I sort of walk on a tightrope with it all the time. And sometimes I feel like just

jumping off and going, I can't be bothered to do this anymore and I'd like to live a quiet life um but then something beautiful will happen and I'll interview someone who's taught me loads and the podcast has really resonated or I get the opportunity to write a book which I don't take for granted, to be able to write a book, like that is the most beautiful process to be, you know, given that opportunity to write a book. I didn't think I'd be doing that. I was awful at school. You know, this is, I feel honored that I get to do that. So luckily that usually outweighs any stress on the other side. It doesn't lessen the discomfort of when I have to do press or when the press want to write something about me or whatever it might be um much less so today I'm relatively low-key slash boring but in my 20s you know I was young and on the telly and dating

people and followed around by paps all day and you know that's you're just fodder for the papers but I'm not anymore you know I wear the same outfits and I don't really do anything so it's great but every now and again they can take stuff out of context from this podcast or another podcast or whatever and I have to just deal with that and I don't deal with it very well I know I won't deal with it very well I'll probably have a week where I want to hide and my poor manager will have to hear me sort of wailing on the phone and my husband will kind of have a pretty low person at home, but then I'll move on from it. It's not like before where I lost years to it.

I'm not in that space anymore, luckily. Now it's like a quicker process that I can, I guess, cognitively work through and find some sort of grounding and sense somewhere in it all you should be very proud of this book it's it's very honest it's very raw I can hear your voice throughout it you I think fans of yours are people who maybe not as familiar with your work, I think will enjoy, through the words you can hear your voice in our ears. I'm so glad.

And, you know, it probably wasn't what I was expecting. Good. Which is a good thing. Good. And I say that and then I think, well, I don't even know what I was expecting, frankly. Well, you know, I think we all, it's a good honest point to make because we all look at people, peers, friends, and we have certain expectations.

You know, usually they're quite good, but we never know the full story. And I don't even know the full story of me and what I'm capable of or what I'm going to learn. So I just want to keep delivering that, you know, where I don't even know where I'm going next. I just want to keep delivering that, you know, where I don't even know where I'm going next. I don't know what the next book is or the next project is I'm going to do, but I'm looking forward to going with the flow of whenever that idea pops up. Yeah. You mentioned energy. There's a whole chapter on energy. And right at the start of that, you ask us, your readers, how's your energy today? And it was a kind of stop me moment. It was like, no, I don't think I've sort of asked myself that question in that way.

So I want to really ask you about that. What do you mean when you say that? And again, I'm trying to get you to rationally explain something that we feel, right? But, you know, is that a question you ask yourself each day? Is it a question you ask your kids? You know, tell me a little bit about energy and how you see it. I think I've looked at it in many ways. In terms of work, if I'm interviewing someone, I can usually sense it quite early on how their energy is.

If they're depleted, if they're nervous, you know, you can pick up on it and you can work with it. And that's quite a lovely thing. When it comes to more personal nature, with myself, I probably only do it in SOS moments, which is not great. So I'll do it when I'm so overwhelmed and think, wait a minute, I am literally like buzzing with nervous energy here. I am on the edge. I feel out of control. My energy is like wired and I need to do something here. Today, you know, I know my energy is quite

heavy because I felt deeply sad all day yesterday and deeply sad this morning. Talking to you has cheered me up. But I'm also very accepting and happy about that in a weird way. I'm content with that. This is where my energy should be in this process of grief. And it feels a bit heavy, but I feel really connected. I don't feel shut off I haven't shut down I feel very very open but quite heavy and I think you know when it comes to my kids I can sort of tell where their energy is at if they're you know when they come back from school it's different every single day but they could be tired and upset about something and you can just sort of sense something's not quite right or they're very relaxed and they're a bit sleepy and the energy's a bit calmer and you can see it when you

maybe go into a busy train station or a party you're almost like bombarded with other people's energy and it's probably easier for us to notice at the moment because there's we're being bombarded with fear messages all day every day not helpful and people are scared and you walk out in the street and you can feel it like shit there's fear everywhere people's energy is of tense tension and fear and it's not helpful and and we can feel it you know all of us feel a bit off centre at the moment because of this bombardment of messaging. And we have to be gentle with ourselves in these times, I think. I mean, saying it's not helpful is a very kind way of talking about it. But fear is never, well, apart from fear in the real kind of primal sense, there is a tiger coming that we can see. Okay, fear, great. Learn something, take a verse of

action, do something with that fear. But chronic, low grades, constant fear day after day. I mean, I don't know, what's your relationship with the news? I do not watch the news. I haven't done for years. And I grew up with a dad who would have newspapers delivered every day. So I thought, you know, I went to an academic school. You know, I'm a doctor. So yeah, of course I should read The Guardian all the times and actually keep up to date.

I thought, where did you absorb this idea from? This is nonsense. I don't need to do that. I can be fully connected and care about humanity and the world and not at all consume the news. Well, the news is this tiny speck of things that are happening on the earth that are all awful. News is a neutral word the word news it's not a bad word yeah news is could be anything could be said could be me saying to you oh I just uh got blah blah on the podcast that's my news for today yeah news but are the connotation of news that we are absolutely used to and has been normalized is it is awful and this last two years fear news equals fear more reasons to be scared get terrified get absolutely petrified what does that do to your health oh my god like i'm sure you have actual stats on this but fear as far as i know creates

stress physically which is going to manifest yeah well it shuts off your rational brain so you can't think clearly and logically anymore it suppresses your immune system yeah which is rather ironic what we need um and it's just not helpful you know how much you know you've mentioned your nervous system at several times with this conversation what does fear puts it in a state of um tension right so what if we have a nervous system that's in a state of tension that's that tension is going to underpin all of our interactions in life right partner work colleagues children how we feel about ourselves it's it's not something that we can just turn on and off it's it's there which is why i think there is such apparent disharmony yeah apparent fear of other people the divisiveness is all fear driven and it is so but i'll tell you fern right you know one of the kind of i guess seminal moments of the year

for me was the london marathon Day and I'd never done a marathon before it was a challenge by Chris Evans a couple years ago on the Virgin Breakfast show. He's so persuasive. He is and I've got to say I've got nothing but love and respect for Chris because I love Chris it was I believe that there was a universal energy that that was meant to happen yeah because the journey I've been on since then, the people I've met, this incredible lady called Helen, who has been coaching me, and she's now one of the closest people to me in my life. And I would, I can never say never, but I wouldn't at that point have met her had Chris not challenged me to do a marathon in 12

weeks at that time, which I thought, I can't run 5K without my hammy going. How am I going to do 40 TK? But what was incredible about that at the start of October in 2021 was that all I saw for half a day going around 26.2 miles in London, was love. I just saw strangers who didn't know anyone bake cakes, bring drinks. Come on, mate, you can do it. I just saw an outpouring of love from humans when they are with other humans. And I thought, this is who we are. Yeah, of course it is. When we are, when there's nothing driving us, when we're not looking and consuming other media

or reading other people's stories, when we're just present together in this big collective group, we want other people to succeed. Of course we do. Of course we do. And we want union. We don't want to be, you know, pulled apart from each other. We really don't. But, you know, it's such a huge problem.

Another section in the book I loved was when you described, and I think I'm drawn to this because we're talking about this collective group experience. You were talking about collective energy. You mentioned, I think, was it a Led Zeppelin concert? Yeah. And an Eckhart Tolle live event so I wonder if you could share a little bit about those events because I think it really speaks to collective energy the Eckhart Tolle event was so wonderful and my brother Jamie is a huge Eckhart

fan and can sort of list off quotes and all sorts. And he's, my brother's kind of the opposite of me in the fact that he's very private. He's very considered and calm and way smarter than me. And he always has a rational answer or solution to something. he's so level-headed and grounded and I'm very lucky that I have him as a brother and um and so we were like let's go together so we went to the Albert Hall and you know you're all packed in I always find it quite awkward being a thing because you know you're kind of like you're sat in this uncomfortable chair and there's people around you don't know and it just feels awkward. But instantly, as soon as Eckhart came out on stage and he works in a very brilliant way where he doesn't plan anything.

He just talks from presence. That was profound in itself. And then his partner came out and did a group meditation. And I'd done small group meditations at the local yoga place to me. But this was 5,000 odd people I don't know how many people were in the Albert Hall there was a lot of people in the Albert Hall all meditating I mean I'm getting goosebumps thinking about meditating together with that universal love you've just talked about at the marathon the same thing the same feeling we're all there for the same reason we all want to feel connection

we all want to feel like there's meaning and purpose behind everything and we sat in that together and it literally felt like we could have blown the roof off the albert hall with that beautiful energy and when will i ever get the chance to do that again in that condensed space with that many people with all the same sort of with our intentions aligning I don't know if I will it was a very very special occasion and then Led Zeppelin being similar but more like wow you know everyone kind of just celebrating life and music and this unique moment but it felt they're the same thing but that they are the same thing that there is actually research now on how when we move together and when we do things with other people like they've measured that your breathing rates can start to sync with the people around you

there's all kinds of incredible stuff which is you know super fascinating i think am i right in remembering that you did you describe it as a near religious sort of type experience? Yeah, I don't know if I used the word religious in the book at all because I was quite careful to not move into that territory. But it felt otherworldly, like inexplicable and so huge that it's hard to articulate. But I think it's the whole point of the human experience that sounds a bit wild but I think the whole point of us being here is to have that feeling yeah and

we're not we're not we we don't do that very often I think the reason I was probably drawn to saying religious because you're right yeah I don't you did mention it like that is when I was reading it I'm not sure I should admit this or not but as I was reading it I I thought right as a as a as a teenager I was a huge Bon Jovi fan like I literally wanted to be Jon Bon Jovi um posters everywhere I've maybe seen them 30 32 32 times. Wow. Twice on every tour, I'd travel to Europe. I was hardcore. And I remember at one of the stadium gigs, as a teenager, I thought this was the coolest thing in the world.

Some people may think this is quite cheesy now, but when Lay Your Hands On Me would come on, which is this big epic sort of stadium track with the organ in the background you know John would come on and say something like I can't believe I'm saying this on the podcast welcome to Johnny's church of rock and roll or something like that but but you know we can laugh about it but like that. It did really feel like that. It feels like that.

You felt like you were at some... It was the Church of Rock. Church of Rock. Church of Rock. So I totally get it. That's the feeling. That's the feeling. It is the feeling.

And, you know, we talk about a flow set. You've mentioned flow a little bit in the book as well. And when I spoke to Stephen Kotler recently about about flow, who's, you know, he's leading world expert in flow. He also a couple of years, I think there's been a festival. How much does what we've just been speaking about play into your desire to have a festival where real people come and hang out in real life? We've only been able to do it physically once because we did the first year in 2019 and then obviously we haven't been able to do it physically

for the last two years. We've done a digital one, but we are going to go back to doing a physical one next summer. And I think it will be more important than ever because we need to be around other humans and we need to feel that collective flow that you've just talked about. And for some people, it will be their first, you know, chance to try that out. They might never have stepped into a yoga class before or tried a group meditation or whatever else we've got on offer next year we've got some really cool ideas um that we're planning that is such to have a shared experience that where the intention is

of connection and the intention is for us all to lose the the outer shell of who we think we are, the ego, whatever you want to call it. And for us to just be in a group of other human beings. That's all I want to do. That's what I want to create. And for it not to be like, oh, I've never done yoga. I don't know if I'm going to be any good. For us to enjoy a shared experience. That's what it felt like in 2019. It felt, I couldn't believe we did one down the road from your house at Tatton Park. And it was beautiful. People were so friendly and lovely.

And there were people that had gone on their own and then made friends and sort of gone off together. And I was like, oh my God, this is unbelievable. So it exceeded my expectations of what we could create. So, you know, we'll do the same again next summer. It's about connection. The book's about same again next summer it's about connection the book's about connection right that's about connection but it's you know the way I see it is what I'm hearing is you do this podcast happy place it goes out you do it many times, I'm sure, from your house, and that it goes through the ether to wherever it goes. It forms a part of people's lives in many different countries around the world.

And they probably feel connected to you and your guests and what you're talking about. But these real life events, I guess they help to bring those potentially disparate people who may not know each other in real life. You kind of bring them together. And I think I've thought about this for this podcast in the past, and then the pandemic happens and you think, wouldn't it be great to bring people together, like-minded people who, because many people feel disconnected. They feel like, well, I don't,, where I live, my work colleagues, they're kind of not into the same stuff as me. I just go off privately and listen to this podcast when I'm on my walk, but I want people in real life. And I know just before it all sort of locked

down in 2020, there was a whole load of someone on on my private facebook page and they're this sort of facebook group set up podcast clubs so they'd listen to the pockets and they'd get together and meet up in person and i thought this is just awesome like the modern day book club yeah exactly i mean we want to be able to have decent chats with people it's not like you have to always hang out with people who think exactly the same as you because you want to talk to interesting people who have opposing ideas or belief systems faiths etc but it's so lovely when i think it's about intention that all of your in the the group intention is to find connection and connection obviously doesn't have to mean in a large group it could be the connection we're having now, two people together having a conversation of depth or that, you know, that you're curious and excited about exploring life.

Because I don't know about you, but I hate small talk. I don't want to go to a thing and be like, oh, how you doing? You know, are you going on holiday this year? Whatever. Well, you're not going on holiday this year. Whatever it might be. I'm not interested. I honestly have no interest in that line of conversation

and I feel a bit empty talking like that. So absolutely, we want the festival to be a place where people can, like all the stuff we've talked about, meet with their full selves on show, with integrity, authenticity, to know that most people there will have the same mission in life that they want to explore and be curious about life and learn new stuff try new things you know get humble you know lose bits of the ego all that stuff that I'm certainly trying

to do and I'm always trying to create these projects yet be part of them because I'm not like the expert. I'm not here going, guys, I've nailed it. Come to my festival and I'll teach you how to live brilliantly. I'm a mess like everybody else. I'm bumbling through trying to work things out. But I want to do it with other people that want to do it. I think that's one of the powerful sort of underlying themes of your new book is that you're not trying to come across as the experts you are very open you are sharing a lot and um you know i sort of i like the bits

where you bring in the experts that you've spoken to and go well actually when I was on this journey like with yoga or meditation I spoke to this guy and and you you literally put the transcript there the conversation I think it's really cool actually it gives it a different flavor yeah and as I said right at the start I kind of feel you're holding someone's hand through it um Was that the intention? Definitely, because it's not like, you know, I can give it a certain element of advice when it's something that I have been through, not necessarily something I've learned or studied, but something that I've experienced and things that I have maybe found helpful. But really, you know, I was walking through a lot of this stuff in the book for the first time, like the Enneagram system I had no clue about, but I was desperate to learn about it.

And I knew a little teeny bit about astrology and planetary movement, but not enough to speak about it with any level of intellect. to really create a beautiful sort of solid underbelly of fact and um and and worth to it for then to for me to sort of walk away after learning that you know all that amazing all those gems i was offered to try them out to go and and live what i just learned and to go you know with the listener should we let's let's try it let's see what happened you don't have to but if you want to or you can just listen to me trying it out and see if you fancy it as well you know, with the listener, should we, let's, let's try it. Let's see what happens. You don't have to, but if you want to, or you can just listen to me trying it out and see if you fancy it as well. You know, that's, I try to come at all my projects, you know, from that angle, I guess. What is it you want readers to take from the book? the book? I want them to feel less alone because that's again probably the on the subterranean level it's what I'm trying to do with anything that I write say express but also to offer up

tools to know that we can lose old layers that we don't need anymore. This book definitely for me was on a level transformational in the fact that I let go of a lot of negative beliefs that I had about myself and that really held me back from feeling good, feeling well, experiencing proper connection, experiencing happiness happiness and probably more importantly than any of those things experiencing magic and I don't want to sound twee or um sort of Disney-esque I'm talking about like real life magic that's always out there but we often don't see it because we are bombarded by fear worry concern oh my. Oh my God, but what if this happens? You know, we're constantly in that frame of mind and we're missing like the everyday beautiful

magic that is there and around. And we've all probably been lucky enough to have experienced that over the years in all manner of ways. There's no one way to experience that. But i hope that this collectively helps people see that magic in their own life and also gives them some amazing tools from these brilliant people i've interviewed to cultivate the awareness to see it to see that it's there in the it's not like big massive you know moments of magic conjured up they're usually tiny quiet private moments but they're so special and they're so they're so dear to you and they'll be with you forever and we're missing them all the time so i hope that this book brings that to the forefront and can combat some of the fear and stuff that we're being bombarded with i love that term magic we all know like you know a beautiful spring day where the the sun's just coming through the branches that's magical

yeah of course it is a baby being born right that yeah it's kind of but it could be something tiny like you go and check on your neighbor and see if they're all right. And there's a lovely little transaction of energy there. And you have a lovely little chat and maybe you took them some flowers or, or it could be just the person who serves you coffee gives you a lovely smile. There's magic in all of this stuff, but we're rushing and we're on our phones and we're not seeing it. I'm on my phone, you know, we're all on our phones. I'm not saying we have to become sort of Luddites that have no technology in our lives,

but we've got to find the balance. And I've certainly got a bit more balance from learning this stuff. For people who are listening or watching and, you know, who connected with so many things that you were willing to share. These negative thought patterns, beliefs that have held you back, the worry of what other people think of you, other people's comments. You've obviously been at an extreme level of that. But for someone who's listening and wants to start making changes, what would you say to them? I think one of the biggest lessons I learned from the book is self-compassion is honestly like the soil for all of this good stuff without it I don't know

where we start we have to have self-compassion and it's linked to just every thread in your life it just is and again I'm not saying that from a place of having nailed it I have not I am it's a daily discipline that you have to go back to it. What does it look like for you? It's definitely being kinder to myself in everyday ways, which often means you are therefore way kinder to everybody else because you've got the space for yourself to do it, so you do it for others.

But I think it's also letting go of the past because I think so many of us are held back by who we believe we are because of the past. We've built up this picture that's just layers of paint and we believe that all of it makes us who we are today. And I don't believe that's true today. Knowing my own past and the things that I found very tricky and the things that have stopped me in my tracks, I can't bring all of that into who I am sat here today in your house. What's the point? I'm not the same person I was back then. I don't care if other people think I am, but I know I'm not. I cannot lug that shit around anymore. It's too heavy. So I am trying constantly to honor, it's not eradicating the past because I've also, this is very important to say,

if you've experienced any level of trauma often you will try and blank that out so I've got patches of memory that are gone and I've realized or I've been learning more about this in EMDR therapy that a lot of the time when I have a panic attack and I feel like I'm leaving my body it's because I've tried to block out parts of me and my life. I've deleted them, delete, delete, don't want it there. So I've been trying to integrate bits of my memory back in to create a more full-bodied story of acceptance. I can't change stuff that's happened in the past. I cannot make it go away, but I don't have to lug it around with me. I can honour the good and the bad. I can accept or attempt to, because it's very hard to accept some things have happened to people in your life, in your backstory.

But I'm not bringing the whole thing to your house today. I'm not lugging that backpack around and saying, I'm turning up with that today. It's too heavy. So I'll honour it. I'll know it exists. I won't try and shut it away like it's some evil demon in a cupboard but I'm not lugging it around super powerful very very powerful Fern I've so enjoyed chatting to you I really appreciate you coming up despite what you and

your family went through yesterday. I want to acknowledge you for everything that you do to help people. You are honest, you're authentic, people really, really can relate to you. You're helping so many people through Happy Place, podcasts, festivals, now with your latest book. I want to thank you. Thanks for coming on the show. And I hope we get to do it again at some point. Well, me too.

And, you know, I experienced everything that I talk about in this book just now. Connection and some magic and you doing some beautiful listening. Me listening to you. And I love what you do. I love your work. And it's great to be sort of on this explorative journey together. It's really cool. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, do think about one thing that you can take away and start applying into your own life. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And always remember,

you are the architects of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it. Because when you feel better, you live more.