Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #244 This Therapy Changed My Life And It Could Do The Same For You: Internal Family Systems with Dr Richard Schwartz

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

This week's episode is a rather special one. In fact, I would say this is potentially one of the most important episodes I've ever released on my podcast because today, I am talking to Dr. Richard Schwartz. He's the creator of an incredible treatment modality called internal family systems, also known as IFS. IFS has had a transformative impact on my own life - I feel calmer, more content and more at peace than I have ever done before. And without question, it has helped me to become a better husband and father. My hope is that this conversation might be the start of something life changing for you as well. Dick begins by explaining how IFS rejects the idea that we each have one ‘true’ identity. Having multiple parts or personalities is not, as the movies would have us believe, a dangerous pathology. It’s a normal, healthy way for the mind to function. We often want to wish certain parts of ourselves away – if only we could get rid of our destructive streak, or silence the inner critic, say. But in IFS all our parts are welcome. Dick explains that they start out as valuable, but in early life trauma or attachment injuries can force these parts into destructive roles. He calls these ‘legacy burdens’. He explains how IFS works in the moment to help us revisit a trauma, retrieve the ‘stuck’ part of yourself and bring it to safety, thereby rewriting your story. It’s a guided self-healing. The very best way to understand IFS is to witness a live demonstration. And that is exactly what happens in today’s conversation - I become the patient and Richard takes me through a real-time session. IFS is an evidence based framework that helps a whole variety of different conditions - PTSD, addictions, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, rheumatoid arthritis, back pain and so much more. My firm belief is that IFS is a system that can help pretty much anyone whether they have a mental health diagnosis or not. This really is a powerful conversation. I am so grateful to Dick for creating IFS but also for making time to come and speak to me on my podcast. I really hope that you enjoy listening. Thanks to our sponsors:   https://www.leafyard.com/livemore   https://www.blublox.com/livemore   https://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore Order Dr Chatterjee's new book Happy Mind, Happy Life: UK version and US & Canada version   Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/3oAKmxi. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/244 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified health care provider with any questions you have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Medicine and psychotherapy are both designed to kill the messenger rather than to listen to the message. Those attempts to get rid of the symptom can make them worse, or people take horrible amounts of medication that affect their bodies, when all they needed to do was just focus on the symptom itself, get curious about it. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better Live More. So this week's episode is a rather special one. In fact, I would say this is potentially one of the most important episodes I've ever released on my podcast. And the reason I say that is because today I am talking to Dr. Richard Schwartz. He's the creator

of an incredible treatment modality called Internal Family Systems, also known as IFS. Now, right at the start, I want to say that IFS has had a transformative impact on my own life. I feel calmer, more content, more at peace than I have ever done before. And without question, it has helped me to become a better husband and a better father. It really has been life-changing for me. And my hope is that this conversation might be the start of something life-changing for you as well. Technically, I guess you would call IFS a form of therapy, but I really hesitate to use the word therapy because I think that word can be off-putting for many people. Perhaps think of it more like a system that you can use to better understand yourself and the contents of your mind. For example, to understand better where your inner critic comes

from and what it is trying to tell you, why you get triggered by certain people and certain events, and what is going on inside your mind, for example, when you feel stuck and can't make a decision and one part of you says, go for it, and the other part of you might be saying, no way. In fact, this idea that we have different parts inside our mind is a fundamental concept within IFS. And the goal is not to get rid of these parts, but to help them transform. In our conversation, Richard shares how the nature of the mind is actually to be subdivided. Many of us are raised with the belief that we have one mind, and from that one mind comes different thoughts, emotions, impulses, and urges. But Richard has discovered throughout his research and his career

that we all have multiple minds that live within us, that are constantly interacting. And we can think of these multiple minds as different parts. We often want to wish certain parts of ourselves away. If only we could get rid of our destructive streak or silence our inner critic. But in IFS, all of our parts are welcome. The central philosophy is that all of our parts are good, even the parts that you may not currently like. However, these good parts are sometimes forced into extreme

and damaging roles as we go through life and face adversity. So these parts shift from their naturally valuable states into roles that can be destructive. In our conversation today, Richard explains how IFS works and how the results of going through the process means that we have access to what Richard calls the self, which is characterized by the eight C's. Creativity, courage, curiosity, a sense of connection, compassion, clarity, calm, and confidence. Now, I understand that this concept may not be immediately clear from what I have said so far. Please be patient with this episode. The very best way to understand IFS is to witness a live demonstration. And that is exactly what happens later on in the show today. I become the patient. Richard takes me through a real-time

session. Now, I really wasn't expecting to do this on the show. I ended up going back in time and speaking to my five-year-old self. In fact, when I finished recording, I was actually slightly nervous and apprehensive about whether I should put this conversation out or not. But the truth is, IFS is a life-changing system, and I really, really want to give you a flavour of what it is and what it looks like. Now, the way we went through the live demo means that you will be able to follow along and apply it in real time to something in your own life. That part of the conversation, I imagine, may be something that you want to revisit and come back to in order to work through things in your own life. IFS is an evidence-based framework that helps a whole variety of different conditions,

PTSD, addictions, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, rheumatoid arthritis, back pain, and so much more. And my firm belief is that IFS is a system that can help pretty much anyone, whether they have a mental health diagnosis or not. Dr. Gabor Mate, who has been on the show twice before, calls it one of the most innovative and transformational therapies to have emerged in the present century. And Bessel van der Kolk, author of The Body Keeps the Score, calls it revolutionary and one of the cornerstones of effective and lasting trauma therapy. This really is a powerful conversation. I am so grateful to Richard for creating IFS, but also for making time to come and speak to me on my podcast. I really, really hope that

you enjoy listening. And now, without further ado, here is my conversation with Dr. Richard Schwartz. I'd love to start this conversation by saying thank you to you because internal family systems, the therapy that you have created, I think has probably had more impact on me than anything else I've done over the past five or ten years. In terms of my feeling of calmness, contentment, happiness, as well as my physical health. happiness, as well as my physical health. And so I really just want to acknowledge you and say a huge thank you. And it's a real honor to have you on my show. Well, I'm very, very honored to be on your show. And particularly since IFS has had that impact, I'm thrilled to hear that.

And I know you are very influential. so it's really great to be here. What my goal is with this conversation is to understand IFS better and to really showcase, I hope, to all of the listeners and viewers just how relevant it is for what I think is each and every single one of us. So could you maybe explain, you know, IFS, internal family systems, what does that actually mean? So, you know, it's not the most illustrative name. So, you know, it's not the most illustrative name. The family part of it applies to having these parts, what I call parts inside our minds, and how they just taught this by the clients, I started to apply that family therapy lens to what I was learning from my clients. And it turns out it applies really well. So the basic assumption is that everybody has these parts and that that's a good thing.

everybody has these parts and that that's a good thing, that it's the nature of the mind to be subdivided this way, to have these what other systems call subpersonalities, that we're born with them, and all of them have valuable qualities and resources to help us in our life. But trauma and attachment injuries, which is basically bad parenting, force them out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can be destructive and freeze them in time. Many of them are stuck back during the trauma and they think you're still five years old, for example. And so just being able to see where they're stuck in the past and going and getting them out of there often allows them to transform into their naturally valuable states. Yeah. I want to get into the process a bit later, but this idea of parts, I think it's really worth spending a bit of time here because in our Western societal model, I guess in

the English language, we often refer to the mind in a kind of singular way, don't we? That this is my mind. My mind is speaking. And you beautifully, in your work, in all of these books, just show that actually there's a multiplicity to the mind. There are lots of different minds within us. And I think for some people that will be, I don't know, a bit scary, perhaps a bit disconcerting. I mean, how do you help people understand that? Yeah, well, as you're alluding to, it's been an uphill battle to try and bring this perspective, because culturally, we are oriented to think of ourselves as having one mind with different thoughts and emotions that emanate from it. But there's just really one of us. And the idea of having many minds with different voices

or thought patterns, et cetera, that have autonomy is scary because that has been pathologized. And you think about, you know, movies in the past like Sybil or there's a whole series of movies about multiple personalities and how crazy they are. And so the idea that you might have these separate sub-personalities is, it's a creepy idea for that reason at first, for not everybody. and actually for whatever reason it's become a lot less creepy over the last couple decades i'd say but still i get a lot of uh pushback like aren't you are you creating uh multiple personality disorder um yeah yeah well even that last thing you said are we creating sorry are you creating multiple personality disorder i think that really speaks to the kind of systems component of internal family systems that actually

you're looking at these parts and how they relate to one another rather than that part in isolation. And in your latest book, there's a really beautiful section in the beginning where you talk about systems thinking. And I'm very passionate about this because I feel as a medical doctor that we have gone down the route of separating the body into discrete parts that actually don't speak to one another. And the heart problem goes to the cardiologist, the lung problem goes to the lung specialist, the stomach problem goes to the gastroenterologist. And I, as a GP, a generalist, I've got so many cases I can think of where the patient would be referred to one of them and say, no, no, this is not your heart. Go back to your GP. You refer to another specialist. And this whole

cycle goes on. Everyone's telling you what it's not rather than what it is and not sort of pulling it all together. And there was this kind of bit of text in your last book, which I really like, where you mentioned, you say this, you mentioned that giving a troubled person a psychiatric diagnosis and seeing that as the sole or main cause of their symptoms was unnecessarily limiting, pathologizing, and could become self-reinforcing. When you tell a person that they are sick and ignore the larger context in which their symptoms make sense, not only do you miss leverage points that could lead to transformation, but you also produce a passive patient who feels defective. And I thought that summed it up beautifully. Thank you. Yeah. You know, family therapy's big insight was you can't take an acting out kid out of their family and just tell them to cut it out.

You have to kind of see the context in which that acting out makes sense. And often there's various forms of dysfunction happening and the kid is reacting to that. function happening, and the kid is reacting to that, and either to protect himself or to protect other members of the family is in some kind of extreme role in the family. And so we learned as family therapists to reorganize the family and free up the kid to be who he's really designed to be. The same thing I found true for these parts, which is partly why I call it internal family systems, that these parts are forced into these roles and get stuck in the roles because of the dynamics of the inner family and can be freed from those roles, as you found. And when they are, they'll transform, just like a kid in a family, into their naturally

valuable states. And you can apply that kind of systems thinking to all the things you just talked about. I just did a series of conversations with someone I know you've had on your show, Gabor Mate. Oh, yeah. someone I know you've had on your show, Gabor Mate. Oh, yeah. And we basically stumbled into the same kind of belief system about chronic medical illness from very different perspectives,

and our approaches are different, but we really found, in terms of data, basically the same patterns. And diagnosing colitis, or whatever the condition is, and then, as you say, shipping them to a specialist who medicates them, without, you know, medicine and psychotherapy are both designed to kill the messenger rather than to listen to the message. And so both Gabor and I are trying to get people to actually listen to find, in my language, the part that's trying to get your attention through the symptom or is trying to punish you in some way

or is just really upset inside. Yeah, I mean, like you, I'm huge fan of uh gabble's work as well and um you know the term part i just i'm trying to reflect on my own journey through this because i came from a place of not knowing much but but i felt the difference like i felt after sessions, I felt lighter, like physically lighter, mentally lighter, emotionally lighter. And I would find that I wasn't getting triggered often by the same things. And for me, what was really fascinating is that someone told me early on that this is one of the few forms of therapy that goes into the trauma and processes it there and then. I thought that really got my attention. I thought, wait a minute. So you go in, you sort it out, and then it's done effectively for some people. And that was really,

I think it was really enlightening because I think a lot of the talking therapies, I guess, that people are exposed to are about repeatedly, I don't want to sort of mischaracterize certain therapies, but there's a principle, talking your way through the problems and then trying to, you know, consciously change your pattern of thinking for next time you're in that scenario. And I think that can, of course, play a role. But what I found with IFS is that you literally go in, you rewrite the story, your brain absorbs that new story, and then you go out into the world as a different person. I thoroughly agree. You know, there's the line, you can't change what happened, you just have to move on from it. You can't change the past. It turns out that in this inner world,

you can literally change the past by doing what you were talking about, which is to go into the trauma and actually retrieve the part that's stuck back there and bring it to a safe place. And even as you, if I were to have you go into wherever one of your little boys is stuck in the past and be there with him in the way he needed it, I would have you ask him, does he need you to do anything for him back there? needed it, I would have you ask him, does he need you to do anything for him back there? And he might watch you protect him from whoever is hurting him. And that literally changes the past for that boy, that inner boy. It doesn't change the facts of what happened in the outside world. But you're right. From my point of view, too many therapies are trying to get this cognitive insight to happen when in fact

these parts are stuck in a limbic place that you're not you're not even touching with those insights it was quite an incredible experience to you know i've done i've had many many ifs sessions and you know one in particular that i remember was you know we went through the process i think this was done on zoom actually maybe this was in the first lockdown from recollection but you literally in your mind go back to a particular incident that you can then vividly see. And then I remember that the therapist helped me as my 40-year-old self to go in and sit alongside, maybe next to the five-year-old little boy and see the situation. I was observing the situation. First of all, I could see the interaction. And then I think he guided me to speak to myself as a five-year-old and, you know, understand the pain and say, look, I understand. I get why you're feeling so obsessed

at the moment. But then once we'd done it a few times in this session, I also then spoke to my mum, right? So this was a session where it was me and my mother. And I could see my mum as the way she looked when I was five. And I was having a conversation with mum and I was almost helping the two of them. And it sounds crazy to say the two of them because it was me as a five-year-old. I understand.

And my mum, like, what, 35 years ago, a lot younger, looking different. But almost being there, trying to show each other each other's point of view. And then watch the room change, the whole dynamic change in my five-year-old self had a smile and he was now playing with his mom. And then I check in a few times and say, do you need anything more? And, you know, there's a whole process there, which of course we can talk about later perhaps. But I think what's incredible is that it feels like someone might think that's an inner sort of made up world, but it felt real. And then not only did that feel real, Dick, it transformed that part of my relationship with my mother. I didn't have to consciously try. And that's what I think, for me, I'm sorry to go on about it, but that's the incredible power is that you rewrite the story. the story. And then I know when you sleep, because I spoke to Matthew Walker about this recently on the show, the professor of sleep medicine. And he just says, yeah, you can literally rewrite memories. I think it's in the REM sleep cycle, I think. So yeah, any sort of

comments on what I've just said? Well, you said a lot. First, I'll say, yes, it isn't imagined. And that is something I've run into frequently where people think, oh, that's a nice fantasy you're creating with a client. For me, it's all a very real other world that's just, you know, just right accessible to everybody if they just turn their focus inside and begin to ask some questions and look around. And what happens in that inner world has a big impact on your outer world and on your body and your mind. So, and that's been a tough sell too. So it isn't like you're imagining what you did with your mother or with that five-year-old. It's literally a different world. It's the world that shamans enter with their ways of entering it, and they have similar processes uh yeah one of the things i love about your way of thinking is

that all of these parts that exist within us you say that there are no bad parts right uh in fact you know that's the name of your latest book which is i mean i've read a few of them this one's i think a great intro for people it's really concise and it gets really to the point for people. But yeah, that idea that there's no bad parts, they're all playing a role. Like we could say in our outside world, all of our behaviours are serving some role. We can try and change the behaviour and then realise after two or three weeks, we keep reversing back or we can try and identify, well, why am I going to that behavior? It's kind of completely mirrored in our inner world as well. Those parts are there for a reason, aren't they? Yeah. If they're causing symptoms or problems,

it's likely that they're in their extreme role. It's not who they are. And that's one of the big mistakes our culture and also psychotherapy has made, has been to assume the part is what it seems to be. So this inner critic is just a bundle of internalized parental voices. And the binging addictive part is just an addiction and so on and so on. And when you think of them that way, then you're going to want to either try your best to ignore them or to fight with them and wrestle them into submission or do something coercive with them. And that's what I was doing when my clients first started talking to me about their parts. I was trying to get them to stand up to the critic or

contain the binge. And it was just making it worse. And at some point, I just decided, because it was not working at all, to ask what's going on. And I learned that that was a big mistake because there are these very valuable parts that are frozen in these traumas, get forced into these extreme roles, and think you're still five years old and think they still have to protect you in the way they did back then. And once they, first of all, once they learn that you're not still five years old, which you can just tell them, and often they're shocked. And then once they learn that there's this other person in there who can talk to them, what you called your 40-year-old self, which I've come to call the self with a capital S.

And this, I think, is the biggest contribution of IFS, is that in addition to these parts, and especially when they relax in open space, there's this other person who emerges with basically the same qualities in everybody. And at some point, I decided to catalog the qualities of that person. And oddly enough, they all begin with the letter C. So we have the eight Cs of self-leadership, which include calm. Like, let's say I was working with you and I was trying to help you with your inner critic, and I had asked you how you feel toward it. And you said, I hate it. I said, well, let's just ask that part that hates it so much to give us a little space for a few minutes. And if it was willing to, then I'd say, now, how do you feel toward it? if it really separated you'd say some version of i'm just kind of curious why it's calling me names all the time seconds earlier you hated it

now you're curious you're calm you're confident you might even have compassion for it spontaneously and also you have the courage to work with it. You're creative in how you work with it. You see it clearly now. It's not a big monster. It's a teenage kid in there. And you feel more connected to it. You want to connect more to it. All of those, All of those we've come to see as qualities of this self that when I would do the same process of getting other parts to separate would pop out in everybody. And it's basically the same person who knows how to heal and knows how to relate in a healing way, both to parts and to people. As you learn through this process to become compassionate to every part that lives inside you, I found that natural consequence of that is you find it much easier to be compassionate to all the people, all the parts, all your interactions in your external world.

Again, this mirror, like what's going on inside completely reflects what's going on outside. And I feel that's one of the reasons why, you know, I said to you at the start of this conversation, IFS has had a huge impact on my sense of calm, contentment, happiness, well-being, my relationships. Because it's not just about healing yourself, I don't feel. It's also through healing yourself, you instantaneously heal your interactions with everyone else as well. Yeah, you said that so beautifully. And that is some of what excites me now, is to bring it to interactions in systems that are larger. Because you're right, how you relate to these parts inside is going to mirror how you relate to people in the outside

world. So if you hate your critic and someone's critical of you, that part that hates it is going to interact with that person. If instead you can listen to and help relax and ultimately have huge compassion for your critic, then when this person is critical of you, you'll see past their part, you'll see the pain that might be driving their criticism, you'll have compassion for them, and you can interact with them in a totally different way. So that's a big part of the larger vision of this is helping people relate with compassion both to their parts and then to the people around them. I wonder if we could get into some specifics so that people can really

kind of understand what specific conditions this might be helpful for. I don't even like that question. I don't like the word conditions because again, that's quite pathologizing and it's sort of putting people in a box. But I guess in a view of where much of society currently is and how they see labels and sort of diseases, maybe we could go back to the start when you came up with the origins of this idea. And I believe it was around people who were suffering with eating disorders. Yeah. Yeah, I, at the time, I just graduated my PhD and I was a zealous family therapist. I thought we'd found the Holy Grail and that people who were spending a lot of time mucking around in

the intra-psychic world were wasting their time because we could fix all that just by reorganizing these external relationships. And I was determined to prove that. And so I picked a symptom that you could count to be able to show good outcome, which at the time was, this was back around 1981. So I'm old and this is the model has been around a long time. But yeah, bulimia was a kind of new diagnosis at the time. And so we gathered together 30 bulimic kids and did straight structural family therapy with the families. And at least my clients didn't get better. And so out of frustration, I began asking why. And they started talking this language of parts. They would describe how when something bad happened, this critic would attack them inside. And that would bring up a part that felt totally worthless and empty and alone and young.

And that feeling was terrifying. It was really, really distressing. young. And that feeling was terrifying. It was really, really distressing. So almost to the rescue would come in the binge and would turn them into an unfeeling eating machine. And there'd be a lot of relief in that. But then after the binge wore off, the critic would attack them now for being a pig on top of everything else. And that, of course, would bring back that worthless, empty, young place. So the binge had to come back, and they'd be trapped in that vicious three-part spiral for days. And again, it was intriguing to me because it sounded like these sequences of interaction that we were studying in families.

And as I've, you know, Gabor and I had this conversation too, as I've studied more and more addictions, quote unquote, you do find that same kind of three-part circle happening with most addictions. I mean, that three-part cycle you just outlined, I'd be surprised if anyone listening or watching this can't relate to some elements in their life where they went through that pattern, whether it was as extreme and as severe as an eating disorder, or whether it was possibly, I don't know, trying to cut out sugar and managing for a few weeks, but then having the kind of dive into the tub of ice cream one night

in front of the sofa, then feeling worthless afterwards or the following morning, and then shame and guilt. But I guess the IFS approach, or one component of it, is that it's not them that's feeling shame and guilt, it's a part of them. That's right. Yeah? Yeah, totally. And we sort of have that in our language already, right? We talked about how language works against us sometimes in terms of, oh, it's our mind and our body without recognizing there's many different parts to our minds. But maybe language also helps us here as well because we sometimes say, don't we, that a part of me doesn't want that to happen.

That's kind of there in common parlance. So in some ways that helps us understand, yeah, it's not me, it's a part of me. That's right. Yeah. That's why I use the word part. It isn't that descriptive of these inner little beings, but it's the most user-friendly word. It's the word that most, like you said, everybody uses in their daily parlance. So if I'm meeting you for the first time and you describe your problem to me and I say some version, oh, so when this happens, a part of you feels this inside. Is that right?

People say, yeah, that's right. Oh, and then another thing. And then you start to criticize yourself. So that critic comes in. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. And then what happens? And I can say, oh, so another part does this. And people don't say, what the hell are you talking about? Where they would if I said one of

your subpersonalities or one of your ego states or something like that. Parts come in different forms. I know you talk about them as exiles, protectors, managers, firefighters. I wonder whether you could explain what these different parts are and how they become formed. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70

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What you just described are the roles that they're forced into, not who they are when they're not hurt or burdened or forced into being responsible protectors. But yeah, when I was hearing about this originally from these bulimic kids, I'm a systems guy, so I'm listening for distinctions and patterns. And the big distinction that leaped out immediately was between the parts of them that were hugely vulnerable and hurt or terrified or felt totally worthless. And then the parts that tried to keep all that locked away and protected clients clients so that that all that stuff never got triggered and was kept in a kind of inner basement all the time and to go back to the vulnerable parts so you've heard the term inner children before. These are these young, very vulnerable and sensitive parts of us who, when they're not hurt, give us all kinds of delight and creativity and joy and playfulness and so on. But once they get hurt, and again, they're the most sensitive parts of us, so they get hurt the most, or terrified, or shamed, they carry what I'm going to call the burden of pain, or fear,

or worthlessness. It's like, almost like during the trauma, the beliefs and emotions from the trauma enter the part, almost like a virus, and attach to the part and then drive the way it operates from that point on. And so parts contain burdens, but they aren't the burdens they carry. Those came into them from those experiences. So, yeah, the parts, so these exiled parts carry those particular burdens from being rejected or abandoned or neglected or actually physically abused and so on. physically abused and so on. And after they get hurt, they leave, they shift from their delightful state. And now they have the power to make us feel all that sort of perpetually

all the time. And they're frozen in time, like I say, in the trauma, and they can pull us back into those scenes. And so we sort of naturally, and then our culture, at least in the US, this being a rugged individualist culture, we are told to lock all that away and just move on. Don't look back. You can't change what happened. Just move on. And in doing that, you're moving away from you're exiling these very precious young vulnerable parts of us simply because they got hurt and they carry those burdens and when you get a lot of exiles you feel a lot more delicate and the world seems a lot more dangerous because so many things could trigger them.

And when they get triggered, it's like these flames of emotion explode from those basements and threaten to make it so you can't function or make it so you're just constantly feeling their feelings. What do those flames look like? Is that anger? Is that rage? Is that a blazing row with your partner? What does that look like? Yeah. So the flames that the survivors of abuse that I studied for so long are most afraid of are much more emotional pain and terror and shame. That's what gets locked up first. Then the protectors go into rage, and then they become scary too. So they become what I call protectors in exile. So you wind up locking up not just these vulnerable parts, but also the parts that get extreme

in their fury to try and protect you. And then you also try to lock up the other parts that are just trying to keep you higher than those flames of emotion that we call firefighters that often tend to lean toward addictions and things like that, toward things that can counter all this pain or shame or terror and get you higher than those flames. So, yeah, so when you get a lot of exiles, other parts are forced into roles we call protectors. And some of them are trying to manage your life so that nothing touches those exiles. They'll manage your relationships so that no one gets close enough to hurt them, or they'll manage your appearance so that people don't reject you, or they'll manage your performance so that you get a lot of accolades.

And so they're constantly thinking and managing and worrying. And so most of us are very familiar with those because they run our lives. They're also become the inner critics. They're criticizing you, usually to try and motivate you to do better, look better, try harder. But sometimes they criticize you to run down your confidence so that you don't take any risks and you stay small and hide your power. And there's a whole variety of what we call manager protective roles. I just mentioned a few of them, but women in particular are socialized to have these massive caretaking parts that don't let them take care of themselves, which often leads, and Gabor and I both agree, often leads

to physical symptoms. That's often what's behind physical symptoms, medical symptoms. And so those are manager parts. Again, what they have in common is they're trying to control everything, often they're trying to please everybody, and they are just trying to keep the exiles contained and not triggered. part you've called protectors. And I've heard you say in articles, in previous conversations, that often when couples fight, it's actually their protectors fighting each other. I wonder if we could sort of dive in here a little bit, because I'm sure most people, if not everyone listening to the show, has been in that situation where someone close to them, let's say their partner, they've had a blazing row with. And I think this is a really quite empowering and quite comforting idea that it's actually not them rowing with each other, it's actually their protectors.

So maybe talk about it in the context of couples fighting. Yeah. Often when couples come into my office, it's parts wars. There's no self-insight, you know, the C word self that I was talking about earlier. And it's just these protective parts battling with each other. And when these parts take over, I know, you know, I can stay in self with most people in most contexts, except my wife. And she, like nobody, has a way of triggering my protectors. And when that protective part of me takes over and we're in it, you know, she looks different. She looks far less attractive. I'm thinking all these negative things about her that I don't think about otherwise. And out of my mouth comes things that, you know, I don't really believe, but, you know, I believe, you know,

a version of that in a nasty voice. And both of us have gotten very good at when that starts to happen, calling a timeout, and we both go in, separate, and we do what we call a U-turn in our focus. So instead of focusing on her and what's wrong with her, I focus inside and I notice the part who was doing the talking. I notice what it's protecting. And when it feels like I can be back in self and those C-word qualities, self and those c-word qualities then i invite her to come back and i speak from self for those parts to her like when you said that thing it triggered this really furious part of me and i could feel it really going off on you and i'm sorry I let it do that. And when I listened inside, it was protecting this very hurt part that really took to heart what you were saying about me as a person that didn't feel good at all. And so I want to speak for that part too. And I wish you wouldn't say

things like that because it really does go right to that heart. But I am very sorry that I let that big protector take over. Thank you for sharing that example. I imagine that you, Dick, have got a pretty good level of self-awareness as to when it's your parts and your protectors starting to take over and speak given the work that you do given the you know the amount of time you've been helping people and through that I'm sure helping yourself that might be quite difficult for people initially like in the actual emotion of a fight or conflict. It might be quite difficult to be able to even have that awareness to take a pause and say, hey, look, we just need to sort of change perspective at the moment. I'll come back

in five minutes or whatever. And I guess when I think of IFS and certainly my relationship with IFS, I feel that it does an incredible job, first of all, of giving people awareness where previously there may not have been awareness, which I think is incredibly valuable, but it doesn't stop there. I think it takes the next step, which is, okay, now that I've got the awareness, let me go in and, I guess in my words, I would say, rewrite the story, change something. Whereas not all therapies, in my experience, do that. So let's go back to couples for a second. Anyone who's hearing this who might be thinking, yeah, that happens with my husband or my wife or my partner. Is there anything practical they can think about doing in that moment?

The moment when a protector takes over? Yeah. Get away from your partner. And, you know, there are still times where I'm not aware and Jean will say, you know, you're in a protector. I say, no, I'm not. And still I'll listen to her and I'll separate and I'll find out, oh, she's right, you know, even though I don't want to admit it. But, yeah, it's challenging. It takes a while before you get the hang of it. And there is a very physical, like I could do an exercise with you or with your audience.

Yeah, sure. Where you would really feel the physical difference between a protector and what I'm calling self. Let's do it. Yeah, I'd be up for that. Okay. All right. So think of somebody in your life that triggers you. And you don't have to disclose who it is,

but you can if you want. Kind of consistently get your goat. Okay, yeah. All right. And then put that person in a room by him or herself. And you're outside the room looking through a window at him or her, are they? And the room is contained. Okay, yeah, I'm there. I'm looking.

All right. And then while you're looking, have the person do or say the thing that gets to you, and just notice what happens in your body and your mind as that protector jumps in? I felt just a general sort of tightness and tightening up in my body and my mind, a frustration. tightening up in my body and my mind, frustration. Yeah, those are the things that I initially felt.

Yeah, so you're noticing your muscles and you're frustrated in your mind. Also check and see how open your heart is now. I also felt my heart rate going up, actually, which I didn't say. As soon as you said it before, I felt I could really feel my my heart rate going up actually which i didn't say as soon as you said it before i felt i could really feel my heart and it going up so um i would definitely say it does not feel open yeah and what kind of urges or impulses are coming as you see the person doing this? You know, things like, oh, I wish they wouldn't. Why do they keep doing that over and over again? We've been here before.

We've had that conversation. Why does it keep happening? Those are the things that are coming up for me. Yeah, good. And then keeping your eyes closed, but go ahead in this inner world and look at that person through the window and tell me what he or she or they look like now. Well, I mean, even just looking at them through the window, I felt my body lighter and relaxed.

And I actually felt a smile come on. Okay. And I just see them being just, you know, being themselves, like for who they are. I can actually just see that they're very close to me. They've got all these lovely qualities. They're just getting on with their day. Again, I'm not sure I'm – this is me and my programming, but I'm not sure I'm doing it right.

Oh, no, no. No, that's great so what happened when i asked you to look at the person that evoked yourself and that protector relaxed somehow and so just notice now what it feels like in your body and your mind. Yeah, it feels completely different. I feel less tense. I feel heart rate slowed down. Actually, I even feel my tone of voice has changed somewhat.

Totally changed, yeah. Has it? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I want to smile. And I do feel open-hearted at the moment. Yeah. And you would relate from this place if the person was in the room, right?

Was in your room now, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. But to continue just for a minute, go back to that protector who was so irritated. Okay. And find him again in your body. Okay. irritated okay and find them again in your towards it yeah how do you feel toward him or it

well i feel towards it? Yeah. How do you feel toward him? Or it? Well, I feel, I guess I feel a separation first of all, a separation in the sense that, oh, I can see that that is just a part that's kind of sitting there. It's not all of me. That's the first thing I can see. I guess I want to say I feel compassion towards it, but I don't in this moment. I don't think. No, no, no. Just be totally honest. Yeah. Yeah, I don't. So what do you feel? Probably a frustration that it's there. Yeah, of course. Okay. But we are going to ask the one who's frustrated

with the angry one if it would give us the space to help it and get to know it a little bit. And just see if the one who's so frustrated would be willing to open some space and separate a little bit. Yeah, if it's willing to step away. Okay. And then focus on the irritated guy again and notice how you feel toward him now.

Well, as the frustrated part steps away, I actually just felt that area ease off. Literally instantaneously right and you know it still surprises me you know when that happens but it really just happened immediately i just didn't feel that tightness as soon as it um happily stepped away and perhaps could that because i've done some of this work before and so a lot of times people can do it this readily, so- Okay. So it steps away. I feel lighter. And how do you feel toward the original protector now? Yeah, I feel okay towards it. I feel, oh, okay, it was there. It was trying to do something. I feel it's in the word, right?

But I feel it was trying to protect me. And I'm actually quite thankful. It's like, okay, cool, you're trying to protect me, but you don't need to. But I see what you were trying to do. So, yeah, say those words to him and just see how he reacts to getting that appreciation. Yeah, he feels good, actually. He feels almost relieved that, oh, i've got to do that role but

you're saying i don't need to do that role so yeah i would say he feels relieved that's great yeah ask him how old he thinks i mean you know sometimes i find you just have to trust it because sometimes I'm like, well, is it my mind imagining this or is this really happening? But what I, what I think, what I feel he thinks I am is five years old. Right. So let them know you're older than that and just see how he reacts to that information.

Yeah. Again, I think it's relief that... Yeah. Yeah, so let him know you can handle a lot more than you could when you were five and that he doesn't need to keep protecting you this way from people like the one in the room you can deal with these people yeah and see if he's starting to trust that more yeah i feel that that part is happy to stand aside and that word relief keeps coming up that, hey yeah, it's quite a tiring role, I don't need to do it anymore.

That's right. And ask him if he really came to trust that, what might he like to do inside of you instead of being this irritated guy? He could do anything he wanted. I think he just wants to hang out and sort of relax and chill and sort of accompany me along my life and see what I'm doing. That's certainly, that's what I'm feeling. So let him know that that's his new role if he wants it. Okay. Does this feel like enough?

Because we could keep going, but what do you think? Yeah, look, I mean, mean certainly for me it feels enough um i'm very happy to keep going my as i said at the start i i really want this to have value for people i really want them to get a sense that actually it can be helpful in so many different uh instances so if you feel keeping going would be helpful, then yeah, let's do it. Okay, yeah, let's keep going. So go back to him and ask him if he protects another part of you that's vulnerable. And don't think of the answer wrong again just wait and see what comes well he's saying he's protecting the five-year-old me. Yeah.

And ask if he would give us permission to go to that five-year-old so we can heal him. Yeah, he says yeah. And then just ask in general in there if there are any other parts of you that might be afraid for us to do that or to do it in this context of your podcast so the part that's presenting itself at the moment is will this be useful for anyone will anyone think this is helpful for me or what i think you know yeah what are you doing so that's that's the part that's coming up let's just see if he'll give us some space even uh you know i strongly suspect it'll be very helpful but just ask him to trust you and me for a minute and to step back in there okay yeah he's set back any other fears about going to the five-year-old

no i'm quite sort of looking forward to actually okay then go ahead and focus on him and find him in your body or around your body. Okay. Where do you find him? I mean, I think I find him around the stomach area. Okay. And as you notice him down there, how do you feel toward him? Yeah, like love. Good.

And I feel I'm breathing more deep. As I focus on the stomach area, I feel instantaneously I'm just breathing more into it and I'm breathing more deeply and more slowly. Perfect. And let him know that you love him and just see how he reacts. Yeah, he's got a big smile on his face. Good. And how close would you say you are to him in there in terms of meters away? I'd say I'm about one and a half to two meters away from him. Okay, good. Yeah, so you're pretty close. So let's just ask what he wants you to know about himself.

And don't think of the answer. Just wait and see what he says to you. Can you repeat the question? Yeah, just the open question of what does he want you to know about himself? He's saying, he wants me to know that he wants to be loved. Uh-huh. Okay. So let him know you get that. And maybe you can repeat to him that you love him.

And see if that feels good or it's not enough or he wants somebody else. Just ask. No, he loves that. I've told him I love him. Okay, good. Yeah. So he does seem to trust that. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. So he does seem to trust that. Yeah. Okay, good.

All right, then ask what he wants you to know about what happened to him in the past. And again, don't think, just wait and see what comes. You don't have to share it if you don't feel like it. Yeah, he's told me something about this desire to be loved, this really that he wants to be unconditionally loved, no matter what he does is what he really wants and so he what he didn't feel that is that what he's saying yeah he's telling me that he feels he has to do certain things in order to feel that love yeah what's that like for him to have to do that doesn't like it feels like it's tiring it's always in efforts he's yeah he doesn't like it and what does it make him feel about himself

it makes him feel that um yeah he feels he's got to do things to get that love yeah so he feels that parts of him aren't acceptable by themselves yeah okay and how are you feeling toward him as you're getting i mean me yeah i feel um nothing but just ways of compassion for him i just want to cuddle up this five-year-olds i want to cuddle up me as a five-year-old right right so go ahead and do that and also let him know that you're getting how how hard that was for him that we're all getting that it sounds really hard and see how he reacts to being understood yeah he's got a smile on his face because he knows that i'm there to be there for him and support him and i think he kind of really likes it that i'm there good and you can be there with him but let's let's go into the time that he's stuck in the past

and be there with him too, such that you don't see yourself with him, you're just there, you see him and his surroundings. Just like you and I are talking, you don't see yourself with me, you're just talking to me. So I want you to do the same with him, just be there in the way he needed somebody in the past where he stuck and just tell me when you're back there with him

yeah i'm back there with him and how are you being with him I'm trying to have fun with him. I've got smiles on my face. I'm trying to show him that he is loved and that he doesn't need to change who he is. So I'm trying to just radiate warmth and love towards him. Perfect. And he seems to be trusting that. radiate warmth and love towards him. Perfect. And he seems to be trusting that.

Yeah. He's just giggling now and laughing. And I can see him beckoning me over to sort of play with him. Good. And then ask him if there's anything he wants you to do for him back there. Before we take him to a good place. So anybody he wants you to say something to or deal with for him? yeah he does he wants me to

have a chat to you know other people there who he feels don't understand yeah so go ahead and do that for him as much as he needs you to. And he can watch how you deal with them. Yeah.

yeah he's seen me have a conversation explain um how he's feeling and you know he's he can see that i'm explaining it very non-confrontationally, very kindly, just trying to share a different perspective. And he's kind of nodding at me. He likes the fact that I'm doing this for him. Yeah, I was just going to ask how he's liking watching you do this for him. Sounds like he is liking it. Yeah. Okay. sounds like he is liking it yeah okay then ask if now he's ready to leave that time and place and come either to the present with you or to a fantasy place of his choice yeah he'd like to go to just go and do something fun together in a different place

okay so go ahead and set that up yeah so i'm taking him to uh the woods near his house where he likes to play the woods near his house where he likes to play. Great. And yeah, we've gone there on our bikes. Good. And so tell him you're going to be taking care of him now this way. And given that, ask if he's ready now to unload the feelings and beliefs he got back there.

Yeah, he's ready. And ask where he carries all that in his body or on his body. I'm not getting an answer. I don't think he knows. Just ask him to just check, scan his body and see if there's something that doesn't belong to him in it or on it. And if he can't find it, that's fine. It's not a problem. But just have him check.

Yeah, he says it's in his stomach. Okay. And what would he like to give it up to? Light, water, fire, wind, earth, or anything else? He'd like to put it into a fire. So maybe set up a fire for him and tell him to take all that out of his stomach and let the fire take care of it and just do that until it's all gone.

Yeah, he's put it all in the fire how does he feel without it he likes it it feels good he's says he feels sort of lighter and freer and tell him now if he'd like to he can invite qualities into his body and you can just see what comes into him, whatever he'd like to have. Yeah, he said he would like that. So tell him to go ahead. Whatever he'd like to have, just tell him to invite it in.

Yeah, he's invited it in. how's he seem now yeah he feels he seems good he's um smiling he's um yeah he's sort of kind of moving around, sort of playing around, looking around in the woods, yeah. Okay, good, and let's invite the guy who was protecting him to come and see him now and just see how that part reacts. yeah the the the part that was protecting him feels um feels pretty good and feels satisfied that the five-year-old doesn't need protecting anymore. That's great. Yeah, that's terrific.

So does that feel complete for now? Yeah, it feels pretty good. So thank your parts for letting us do this much. And when it feels right, you can just start to shift your focus back outside. Yeah. How do you feel now? I feel good, actually. I feel free in my body.

I... Yeah, that felt... That felt pretty significant, actually. It did to me as well um i don't know how long that took but it wasn't very long and the reason is because you bring so much self right away to the process and i i don't know if that's because you've been working on it with IFS for a while or you did right away, but it's a thing of beauty to watch. I feel a bit emotional, a bit teary and aware that several hundred thousand people are gonna uh listen to this but yeah it felt pretty significant actually and um i feel very light in my body and speaking to what you just said um dick i don't think in my first few sessions it was that quick for me to... I don't think when I asked the parts

to step aside, I don't think they easily did. And I think you're probably right that the fact that I've done this on many occasions means that I can go in. And maybe this conversation has come at the right time because I was thinking today, should I do a session to do something with Dick? And I thought, nah, you know what, there's plenty to talk about. I can't really think of what I would bring up anyway. Although I will say in the last 24 hours, a couple of little bits of friction have actually occurred in my personal life in a way that they haven't for quite a while, which I guess is always... I see IFS as a way of me being a compassionate detective inside, in my inner worlds. That's right. I can sort of walk around in my inner worlds and just inquire as to annoyed at any part, but actually to understand why are they there. That's what it's felt like to me.

Yeah. And it does become a kind of life practice where you go through your day. And certainly if you ever get triggered, you're going to get curious and find what we call the trailhead to that trigger, that the thought or the emotion is the trailhead. And if you stay with it, you'll find the part that's coming from. And you do it, like you said, from curiosity and then compassion when you learn about why the part's doing it.

and then compassion when you learn about why the part's doing it. And what happens is you do that, which is clearly what's happening to you, is your parts come to trust you as a leader. And that's why they can separate so quickly. There are four goals of IFS. The first one is the liberation of these parts from the roles they've been stuck in so they can be who they're designed to be, which we did do with that irritated guy and also with the boy. And then the second goal is restoring their trust in you as a leader, in what I call the self, with a capital S. Which, because you could show that boy you could protect him and speak for him, and you were so respectful and compassionate with the angry guy,

they just start to trust that there is this. And when you told that angry guy, you weren't five years old anymore. That helps for him to say, oh, there is some kind of grownup in there that can handle things. I don't have to do it because many of these protectors are what in family therapy we call parentified children, parentified inner children. They were forced to take on roles that they weren't equipped for, like a child in a family that has to be the parent. So they're relieved, like that guy kept saying, he's so relieved to know he doesn't have to do it all the time. Go ahead.

I was going to say that in terms of inner worlds reflecting outer worlds i mean certainly there's no question within my my my external family with you know the family which i grew up, I've had to take on a role of a parent, I would say, very early on. That was a big part of my role with my family. And so it's very interesting to hear you sort of reflect that as to what happens in our inner world as well. reflect that as to what happens in our inner world as well yeah so some of these protectors became in both internal parental children parentified children and external parentified children in your family's context and and partly as a result that boy never felt uh love. I don't know never, but he didn't feel a lot of unconditional love because he had to play this role all the time. And I was going to go through

the other two goals. The third is we didn't do a lot of it, but bringing these parts together like we did at the end and seeing now they can form new relationships that are much more harmonious and work together in different ways. And then the last goal is for you to be more self-led in the outside world, both in relationships with your family, but also as you get to know self more and more, self has a kind of vision for your life. And self sees clearly. That's one of those C words.

And it can see injustice. And so you're motivated to do something about injustice So sees clearly, that's one of those C words, and it can see injustice. And so you're motivated to do something about injustice and imbalance in the world. And so some of what I try to do is help people access more self, and then they become more and more activists. And I am working with some of the top activists in the world to help them do their activism from a more self-led place. Yeah. As you talk about those goals, you know, I'm led to this thinking about IFS that I passionately believe it's for everyone, like every single person. I cannot imagine there's someone out there who would not benefit

from IFS or a form of it in their lives. And I think, you know, sometimes I feel, I don't know if you ever feel this Dick, that is it seen as a form of psychotherapy? And if it is seen as a form of psychotherapy, is that in some ways problematic in terms of expanding its reach? Because I feel it's something that sits, that you can use alongside other practices. You can use whatever religion you are, whatever your spiritual belief system is. You can still use this as a technique and as a framework for detecting what's going on in your inner world and changing it. But I think some people think therapy, that's for sick people. That's for people who've got depression or you know that they're really struggling they need therapy what what on earth do i need therapy for right you're right it is

that is a problem as we try to expand our reach with it uh and we're playing with different ways to frame it because now we are working with non-therapists and we are also trying to, non-therapists like coaches, executive coaches and other kinds of professions, teachers, but also we're trying to, how can we bring this to the public in a safe way? to how can we bring this to the public in a safe way? Because it is, as you saw, it can take you to delicate places quickly. And everybody's got a kind of delicate inner ecology that if you make a couple wrong moves could blow up. So that's the challenge now.

And I'm convinced that there's a version of it that we can bring to the public in a safe way. Yeah. But it's exciting for me to hear you catch the larger vision of it because I've held that vision for many, many years, basically by myself. And now a number of people are starting to carry it with me. Yeah, no, it's so clear to me that it actually has universal application. You know, as I said, I went into it. I didn't have a diagnosed, you know, and I'm saying this with inverted commas, problem or an official diagnosis. Now, I had a body complaint and the person I was seeing thought that this would be a good

thing to explore, but I could feel the difference. I could feel the power of it. And the drive for me, a lot of it was after my dad died. I really wanted to understand myself better, understand my programming. Why did I think certain ways? Why did I make certain decisions in certain ways? Why did some people trigger me in certain ways and not others? And also becoming a parent, that was huge. Yeah. Because you transform yourself, you naturally automatically transform the way that you parent. Because otherwise, you're just imprinting your kids with the same kind of adaptations that I developed, that I'm trying to get rid of, or trying to reframe, let's put it in my 30s and 40s.

It's like, well, there's an opportunity here to not put that onto my kids. Yeah. I mean, to the point where I sometimes think, well, I bet you kids could intuitively get some of these concepts. Oh, that's not me. That's a part of me that just got angry. Have you got any experience of doing this with kids? that just got angry. Have you got any experience of doing this with kids? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't

need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression.

It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative.

Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast.

But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. Oh yeah, yeah. There's a lot of IFS therapists that are child therapists and kids get it right away. They haven't been socialized away from the phenomena. So when you ask about one part, they'll tell you about three others. And with them, we use a lot of play therapy technique, younger kids. So draw your parts or puppets or kids love it, actually. So that's all very, very fun. And they have self, they have the ability, you know, they can't drive a car, but they have the ability to heal themselves that way and be good inner parents to their exiles. So it's very joyful to work with kids. One of the other benefits I just like to share with people to really, again, keep sort of

highlighting how powerful I think it is, is that I've been thinking a lot, Dick, about this concept of personality over the last few months. And for most of my life, my friends and my family would tell me I have an addictive personality. And there were various ways in which I would demonstrate that addiction. If I get into something, I'm all in. And, you know, probably when I was at university in Edinburgh, you know, I used to like going to the casino or gambling on a game of pool or frankly gambling on anything just for a bit of a buzz. And I would do it quite a lot, but never to the point where you think this is a problem, let's say. But what's really, really interesting is as I've gone on this self-healing

journey, I've not tried to stop gambling or I've not tried to stop any of those other things. They've just naturally fallen by the wayside as if they no longer need to be there to do what they previously did. Yeah, that's what we find over and over. So, you know, we have groups of IFS therapists working mainly with addicts of various kinds. of various kinds. And rather than going to the part that does the addiction activity and trying to get it to stop, we go to it sort of in the way we did with your protector. And we learn about what it's trying to do, what it's trying to protect. We get permission to go to that, just like we did with your five-year-old, and we heal that younger part that it's protecting. And then you're right. The addict part says, I don't need to do this. I'll do what I would rather do. And people sort of naturally

stop doing it. Whereas if you came to that addict part and said, I want you to cut this out, that part's going to say, you don't know what will happen if I stop doing it. Whereas if you came to that addict part and said, I want you to cut this out, that part's going to say, you don't know what will happen if I stop doing this. All these feelings are going to come flooding, or I'll get suicidal if I don't have the distraction of the addiction. So it's just a very different approach to both understanding things like addiction and helping people relate to themselves around it. That again, I just want to say how thrilling it was to meet with Gabor because we just think about it basically the same way. Yeah, I remember my first meeting with Gabor in London a few years ago, and we just struck up such a wonderful connection. I'm a different generation to Gabor, but there was certainly a similarity in terms of we were seeing things, certain things way, and there was a real resonance between us. It was a really lovely conversation, and I'm delighted that I got to know him well over the last few years. But that idea about personality, what I think is incredible about this idea that there's

multiple minds within us, these different parts. And if you've lived your whole life, let's say you're a 40-year-old adult, and a lot of these protectors and these exiles got into place when you were five, six, seven, eight, then you might be thinking that you are a certain type of person. You think, this is my personality. But what I've discovered is that when you make friends with these parts, make peace with them, and go through the process of realizing that there's no bad parts, they're all there, they're all trying to protect you. I kind of feel that elements of your personality change. I'm not sure anymore if I do have an addictive personality because I don't think I do. I think I did and it played a role in my life.

Does that make sense to you? And is this something you've seen with other people? does that make sense to you and is this something you've seen with other people yeah we see it over and over you know calling saying that you have an addictive personality is saying you have this one mind like we were talking about earlier yeah and it has this inclination and you're kind of stuck you're stuck with that you know that's who you are. Instead of saying, yeah, I've got this part who's trying to protect me by distracting or getting the rush that you mentioned, the buzz, and it's trying to keep me away from these others. And that's a totally different understanding of yourself.

And you start to relate inside with a lot more, a lot less shame and a lot more compassion you know i could take the what's called the the dsm the diagnostic statistical manual and there are all these categories of diagnoses and i could give you a parts-based description of each of those. Each of them is pretty accurate in terms of the way this person presents, but it's really just a description of the cluster of protectors that are dominating that person's life. And as the person heals, then those parts relax and they're no longer fit that diagnosis. We just published a paper in a peer-reviewed journal where we had 13 people with moderate to severe PTSD get 16 sessions of IFS. And at the end of those 16 sessions, only one still qualified for the

diagnosis because all these parts had just shifted into their naturally valuable states. Yeah, it's so powerful. And the way we like to label patients in my instance, clients in your instance, I think is potentially very problematic. On one hand, it's helpful because it's showing people, a lot of people feel that the medical profession think that something's in their heads. And so people like the validation, no, no, in their heads. And so, you know, people like the validation. No, no, this is not my head. This is actually something. And I totally get that. But I do think also by putting these labels and, you know, badges on people, I think it can really become problematic. Some people then become, they really identify with that. That is who they are. I, you know, I have depression. That's why I feel like this. And maybe it's just subtly shifted the language, like in, I guess, an IFS language, you know, a part of me feels depressed

at the moment. Would that be accurate? Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't use that language yet, although I probably will soon. But I would, I don't use that language yet, although I probably will soon. But I would say to a patient, look, at the moment, you have got a few symptoms that are consistent with a diagnosis of depression, but that's just at the moment, right? Let's figure out what's causing that. So I'm always trying to create a bit of distance with my patients from the diagnosis, just so they know removing that diagnosis may be possible in the near future. That's right. And when you get that diagnosis, and it includes medical diagnoses, then you are trying to... I reviewed a book recently,

and I wish I could pull up the doctor's name, but I liked the metaphor she used. It's like you're driving in your car and the red light comes on on the dashboard. And so you pull over and you try to tear out the red light and get rid of it or take it to a mechanic and replace the red light rather than lifting the hood and seeing what's going on in there. And that's a lot of what I think both medicine and psychiatry try to do. And a lot of those attempts to get rid of the symptom can make them worse, or people take horrible amounts of medication that affect their bodies, when all they needed to do was just focus on the symptom itself, get curious about it. We published a study some years ago

in the Journal of Rheumatology actually, where we had 30 moderate to severe RA patients, rheumatoid arthritis patients. And then it was a nice RCT. We had 30 who got an educational control. And the treatment group got a course of IFS. course of IFS. And at the end of it, many people were much better and some went into complete remission simply by focusing on, and this was in Boston here at Boston Women's Hospital. So they were mainly Irish Catholic mothers who'd never been in therapy.

And we simply had them focus on the pain and get curious about it. And they began hearing from the parts that were using the pain to try and get a message through that stop taking care of everybody else and take care of yourself instead. Which again, is just like Gabor's work. When the body says no, it's the body's going to have to say no. It's going to cripple you so you can't take care of everybody if you don't stand up for yourself. Yeah. We'll get the links to some of these papers and put them in the show notes

for people who want to study more and actually read those articles. And Dick, for people who, well, I guess for myself as well, I definitely feel that what we went through was pretty significant. I did feel a bit, I wouldn't say maybe shaky afterwards. Again, I'm not sure how much of that is, there is a part of me that is aware that this is a public forum as well. It's not just me doing this privately with just one-on-one with a therapist. So, you know, I'd be lying if I said that there wasn't a part of me that is very, very aware of that and wondering, is this a good idea? Should I share it? Should I not share it? Should I talk to my wife and discuss? Is this a good thing? But for me in terms of post care after something like that, so I'm pretty sure I know what to do anyway, but I also wonder if some people will rewind and go through that process themselves in their own life. I think that could be really valuable for them. Any sort of words of advice, practical tips that people should be aware of so that if they do that, they know how to kind of look after themselves afterwards? Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that. So there are two things. One is,

IFS isn't just the session we just did. For that to stick, the work you just did, you need to follow up. So there's a kind of homework practice where every day for a month or so, you go to that five-year-old, you make sure he's still in the woods or wherever you took him, that he feels that you still remember him, you're not going to let him abandon him. You remind the former protector that he can just relax and trust you. So there's an ongoing, almost like a meditation every day, kind of working with these parts to maintain the gains. And then there are some people who can just take it and run with it and do a huge amount on their own. I don't happen to be one of those.

But if people do try a version of this, again, sometimes you can go very deep, very fast, very deep, very fast, and then you are potentially subject to what we call backlash, which is some of what you're feeling now about what the hell did I just do? That parts who didn't want you to go to that boy will get really upset with you and make sure you never do it again and that kind of thing. So that's some of what we're trying to tease out as we try to bring this to the public in a safe way. But just to, if that were to happen to someone in your audience, just so they would know it for what it is, it's just a part that got scared to allow you to go to these vulnerable places and needs more of your attention before you do it again.

Yeah, thank you for that. Another, well, there's many, of course, but what resources would you like to direct people to? Hopefully people have never heard of IFSS will now be aware and think, wow, you know, I'm pretty keen to explore. I hope some people will listen and go, you know, I'd be quite keen to train as a therapist. I've got to say, Dick, sometimes I think about that. I genuinely think, I think I'd quite like to learn technically, professionally. We've not got into this in the conversation today, I was hoping to, but maybe if we do a part two at

some point, we can talk about this whole idea that I have that IFS could be so useful for almost all of my patients. Because I've said before that 80 to 90% of what we see as medical doctors is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles. That's not putting blame on people. I'm just saying the way society is set up with huge amounts of stress, this problematic definition of success, I think, this culture of working more, doing more than your body can literally bear. I think ultimately this results in symptoms. And a lot of the time, even those of us who are inclined to think about lifestyle as a form of medicine, even then we overly rely on things like willpower for people to make these choices. And it can be

very problematic and very short-lived. So I really really feel maybe we'll save this for part two because i think um if you're up for it at some point i think there's a really interesting discussion there about beyond like your internal of course it's your internal world but it also impacts your behaviors your willingness to exercise your willingness to eat well like i i don't find those things an effort anymore in a way that I might have done in the past because, you know, I feel I've got such a high degree of compassion for myself now in a way that I didn't in the past. Like I want to look after myself, you know, I want to do stuff that makes me, that nourishes me. So I've gone off on two separate things here. I was trying to say what resources,

well, feel free to comment on any of that, but also where can I point people to? Sure. So I'll start with the willpower issue because that is the way we're socialized to deal with ourselves. And if you don't want to exercise because you don't have willpower.

And so that builds up this sort of inner drill instructor who screams at you to do it or overrides all the parts of you who don't want to and creates these inner polarizations that get bigger and bigger over time. And so again, as you heal, So, again, as you heal, that drill instructor realizes he doesn't have to do that anymore. And you tell him that. And then he relaxes like your protector did. And then you can exercise for the joy of it. And you don't necessarily maybe work out as hard as you did before.

But that's okay. Because you don't have to kick your ass to do it. And you listen to other parts who don't like that. And other parts who don't need you to be muscled and very thin. And it becomes a kind of a negotiation among all your different parts and what they want with you as the chairman of the board or with you sitting at the kitchen table with the big discussion going on as the head of the family.

So, and then resources. So, and then resources, our website is ifs-institute.com. And on it, you'll find a lot of books and videos and things like that. And we also have a training called the Online Circle, mainly for people. We have a huge waiting list for our trainings now, which I feel constantly bad about, but it's a nice problem to have. So many people can't get in. So we have an online program for them to at least get the basics. And that's available to most anybody. And then in terms of books,

which aren't necessarily on the website, the book you mentioned, no bad parts. As you said, it's a pretty easy read and people can get that on Amazon. And also there's an intro to IFS that we currently sell on our website, but we've just licensed to Sounds True to market to sell. And then there's a book on couples called You're the One You've Been Waiting For that people seem to like a lot. It's for the public, too. So those are the books I would point people to.

And, you know, there are a lot of video lectures on YouTube and examples of me working with people, too. Yeah. and examples of me working with people too. There's also an IFS UK group that's very, very active. I think that's their website is IFS UK. And so they run a lot of trainings too. Yeah. We're going to pick up all these links.

I'll also drop them in the show notes section so that people who you know want to find out more either as a you know recipient of the therapy um or as a practitioner um you know i really want them to have places where they can go and as i say that dick as a recipient of the therapy i i immediately want to correct that because you're not really a recipient, are you? You're an active participant. Yeah. When clients finish with me, they generally say some version of,

you're a pretty good therapist, but I healed myself. And that's true. This is what's called attachment theory taken inside. Attachment theory is very influential and much of it very accurate about how kids do or don't attach to their caregivers. Let's get these kid parts to attach to you, yourself, and start to trust you as a caretaker. And that really frees people up because so many relationship problems are caused because my exiles want to be taken care of by my wife. They don't know they can get anything from me. And so they latch. I'm not saying this is true now because I've worked with my exiles and they trust me.

But for many people, your exiles want to be taken care of in the way they weren't by your parents, by your partner. And that's an impossible task. And so your partner winds up hurting you in the same way. And then all your protectors go crazy. But if your exiles feel taken care of by you, that frees your partner up. Your partner can be the secondary caretaker, not the primary. So one more thing before we stop, I want to mention, and that is that in addition to the resources we mentioned, there's a foundation called the Foundation for Self-Leadership. It's a nonprofit and sponsors research and

kind of educational programs and is, is uh you know just really wonderful organization not connected to me but the studies that i mentioned they funded and so uh they're very interested in donations yeah fantastic thank you for sharing that again we'll put all these links in for people i just want to say dick at the end of our conversation um that i i think what you've given to the world is it's just incredible and the ripple effects i, of this way of looking at our inner worlds, I think will be seen and felt for years. As the world becomes seemingly more and more divided, certainly when you go online, yet when you actually really interact in person with real people in real life, I actually find that people are loving, compassionate, caring. They want to

do the right thing for other people. And I really feel IFS is helping people be compassionate to all parts of themselves. And naturally, they're going to be more compassionate to people around them. I'd love to see it. I'd love to see people in leadership roles, you know, politicians, presidents. I'd love to see them understand this because, man, do we need it at the moment. So, please.

I was just going to say, I said this earlier, but I don't run into many people who get the big vision of it and can articulate it in the way you just did. It's really, really thrilling for me to hear you and to feel our connection now. Oh, no, I appreciate that. And I think that there's many books out there. I've only been reading this one for the last couple of days, the new one, No Bad Parts. I can't think of a better primer for people because it's, you know, some books can be really heavy and deep and people have to be really, really invested into really understanding every aspect of a particular modality. But I think this

one is just so beautifully written. I think the layman can pick it up and really get a very good understanding very quickly of what it is and how it might be applicable to them. So thank you for writing such a wonderful book. The podcast is called Feel Better Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. And I think once we start exploring our inner worlds more with a compassionate undertone, I think people are going to get a whole lot more out of their lives. So I wonder, there's final words from you, Dehikator, for people who are listening, who maybe feel a bit stuck, who maybe feel frustrated with the state of the world and their own lives. I wonder, have you got any sort of final words for people to give them a

bit of hope? I guess what I'd say is this self with a capital S that I've been talking about, we've been talking about the last two hours, is in there even if you never feel many of those C-word qualities. It is in there and it's just beneath the surface of these parts that feel so discouraged and hopeless and have you stuck. And it is possible simply by convincing them to open a little space in there, to access more of that, and to bring more of that to your life, both your inner life and your outer life. And some people can do it on their own or from reading the book. Some people need a therapist to help them. But I guarantee it's in there. And I also guarantee that when you stop fighting with these protectors and you start going to the exiles,

everything starts to transform in the way that you so beautifully described today. Beautiful, empowering message to leave people with. Dick Schwartz, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your incredible work. And I really look forward to the next time we get to have a conversation. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation don't forget to check out the show notes section for this episode on my website drchatterjee.com to see all the links and resources to everything

we discussed on the show today thank you so much for listening to the show i do not take your time for granted have a wonderful week. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it. Because when you feel better, you live more.