Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #253 Auschwitz Survivor Reveals The Secret To Overcoming Any Obstacle In Life | Dr Edith Eger (RE-RELEASE)

Episode Date: April 2, 2022

Caution: contains themes of an adult nature. This is the second in a series of re-released episodes from the Feel Better Live More back catalogue. This is a powerful story that my guest delivers with extraordinary wisdom. Today’s conversation will stop you in your tracks. It’s powerful, confronting and challenging and I am so grateful for my guest’s honesty, empathy and willingness to share the wisdom of her 93 years. Dr Edith Eger is a Holocaust survivor, psychologist and expert in the treatment of post-traumatic stress but above all, she’s an incredible human being with an extraordinary story to share. Her latest book, The Gift: 12 Lessons to Save Your Life, is quite simply a phenomenal read and in my view a must-read for all of us. As a Jew living in Eastern Europe under Nazi occupation, Edith was taken to Auschwitz concentration camp with her parents and sister, at the age of 16. She explains how she found her inner resources, how she came to view her guards as the real prisoners, turn hate into pity and, incredibly, she even describes her horrific experience as ‘an opportunity’. She has liberated herself from the prison of her past through forgiveness. I’m acutely aware that for many of us listening, myself included, it’s hard to put our own problems alongside anything Edith has faced. Which makes her teaching that, ‘There’s no hierarchy in trauma’ all the more beautiful. Edith is not here to make us put our own suffering into perspective and overcome it. Rather, she explains, we can learn to come to terms with pain, reframe it and become stronger. We cover so many different topics in this conversation, from parenting and relationship wisdom to insights on semantics and depression. Edith’s message to us is that we can change the thoughts and behaviours that are keeping us imprisoned in the past. I felt grateful and humbled to have had the opportunity to speak to Edith and the conversation really changed me. I hope you get as much out of it as I did. Thanks to our sponsors:   https://www.leafyard.com/livemore   https://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore Order Dr Chatterjee's new book Happy Mind, Happy Life: UK version: https://amzn.to/304opgJ US & Canada version: https://amzn.to/3DRxjgp  Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/250 Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/3oAKmxi. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified health care provider with any questions you have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Change is synonymous with growth. Some hoping that people can find some positive way to make a decision that life is not from outside in. I have discovered my inner resources in Auschwitz that I was able to decide that they were the prisoners, not me. And they could never murder my spirit. Our schutz was an opportunity for an opportunity to discover my power within me that no Nazi could take away or touch.

So it's not what happens, it's what you do with it. Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. Over the next few weeks, as well as the brand new podcast episode that I release every Wednesday and the shorter bite-sized ones every Friday, I've also decided to re-release some of my most popular podcast episodes to date at the weekends. Now, the reason I've decided to do this is because there are a lot of new listeners coming to my show at the moment because of the incredible amount of publicity surrounding my brand new book, Happy Minds, Happy Life,

and the wonderful feedback to it. So for new listeners, I really want to be able to showcase what this podcast is about and the variety of different topics that I try to cover every single week. If you are a long-time listener, I really hope that you will enjoy being reminded about some of these classic episodes from the archive. And even if you did enjoy listening to the episodes first time round, I hope that you may feel inspired to re-listen as I think there is a huge amount of value to be had from listening in again. Now, this is the second conversation I've chosen to re-release as part of this new weekend series. And it is a conversation that fundamentally changed me and my perspective on life. Whatever you are doing right now, driving, commuting,

out on a long run or out for a walk, it really doesn't matter. I think this conversation is very likely to stop you in your tracks. It is powerful, it's confronting, it's challenging, you in your tracks. It is powerful, it's confronting, it's challenging, but I've got to say I feel really grateful to my guest for all her honesty, empathy, and her willingness to share the wisdom from her 93 years on this planet. Dr. Edith Eger is a Holocaust survivor and a psychologist, but above all, she is an incredible human being with an extraordinary story to share. Edith grew up in Eastern Europe and at the age of 16, when she was living under Nazi occupation, without any warning, one day she was taken to Auschwitz concentration camp, along with her parents and her sister. In our conversation, she explains how she managed to cope with what went on inside

the camp. She also describes how she came to view the guards as the real prisoners. And quite incredibly, she describes her horrific experience as an opportunity. She's liberated herself from the prison of her past through forgiveness. Now, I don't want to say too much about this conversation because I really think that it speaks for itself. But one of the main take-homes you are going to get, I am sure, is that we can all change our thoughts and behaviours that are keeping us imprisoned in the past. Now, the sound quality was not as good as I would have wanted, ideally. There was also a very slight delay in the Zoom connection,

but you can still make out every single word that she says. This is a life-changing conversation, and I truly believe that it's going to change your perspective on your life in the same way that it changed mine. same way that it changed mine. And now, my incredible conversation with Dr. Edith Egan. Edith, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. I'm looking forward to have a very meaningful conversation. I certainly hope so. You are a guest who I have been really looking forward to speaking to for about three months now, ever since I started reading

The Gift, which I have to be honest, is just one of the most phenomenal books I've read. And it's gone straight onto my favorite pile. I have a pile in my living room where in the morning where I'm just having my morning routine, I'll have a few books from which I just pick and read a couple of chapters from each morning and your book has gone straight onto that pile. So thank you for writing it. Thank you for reading it. It is a self-help book. People ask me for it after the choice. So you read the chapter and then there are the how-tos. And, you know, none of the talking does any good unless it's followed with an action. So you make a decision what you're going to stop doing or start doing or more of the same. Yeah. You have a choice. And that is something, obviously, that's the name of your first book.

But even that idea, it really rings through this book as well that we've always got a choice. We always got a choice. And my name is not a shrink, but a choice. They always got a choice and my name is not a shrink but a stretch. So I'm hoping to stretch people's comfort zone because when you change, you have to replace

it with something else. So this is a good time out with me and you that people can really take stock of their lives and see what they need to leave behind what they need to rethink and most of all make a decision and putting it into action yeah for sure now i wonder if we could go back right at the start of this conversation. You say about leaving our comfort zones.

And in quite an extreme way, when you were 16 years old, you had to leave the comfort of everything you knew. I wonder if you could take us through that step by step so we can really understand what happened to you at the age of 16 well there are two things happened I was put in a place I was not prepared for and I was told one thing and then I found another I hear that a lot, especially with the military people who come back and they wanted to take their lives because they don't know how to readjust and rethink and re-decide. And it's a very difficult place to be when you don't know how long everything will last. It's not permanent. Hopefully it's temporary. stock of their lives, whether they are able to hold on to things that are not working anymore, or are they able to re-decide and risk, that's a very good English word I love,

and risk to do something new that is very scary, because you have the fear of the unknown. That's why people don't change. But change is synonymous with growth. Some hoping that people can find some positive way to make a decision that life is not from outside in. But I have discovered my inner resources in Auschwitz that I was able to decide that they were the prisoners, not me. And they could never murder my spirit. So it's not what happens. It's what you do with it. Yeah.

Auschwitz was an opportunity. Auschwitz was an opportunity. And today we have an opportunity to really decide whether we are holding on to hatred or recognizing that that hatred is eating us up and how to be a survivor and not a victim of anything or anyone or any circumstance. You say Auschwitz was an opportunity. Yes. You're saying that now as a 93-year-old lady, is that right? Yes. Which is incredible. 93 years young, yes. 93 years young.

I love that. Chronological age doesn't count at all. But I think Auschwitz was an opportunity for an opportunity to discover my power within me that no Nazi could take away or touch. Could you take us through that day when you were, I mean, what was that day like? Was it just a normal day for you in your life? One of the things I always say in schools is what my mother told me in a car. We don't know where we're going. We don't know what's going to happen. Just remember, no one can take away from you what you put here in your own mind. I tell the children in school to watch the karate kid because the best power is a brain power. Okay.

And not to, not to smoke pot because it interferes with the natural growth of the brain. So this is exactly what happened. When I arrived, there was a sign, our wife, my fry work makes you free,

make work makes you free. And it was chaotic. I didn't know where I was. I never heard of Auschwitz. But then we were separated. My father said, actually, you know, we're just going to work and then we're going to go home. And that's not what happened.

Because an hour later, he was in a gas chamber. So was my mother. So and then I stood in line with my sister Magda. And there was a guy who was referred to as the angel of death. He was pointing to the left or to the right and pointed my mother to go to the left. And when I followed my mother, he grabbed me. And I never forget those eyes. You know, I pay a lot of attention to eye contact. You have a very good eye contact with me because, you know, I can kill you with my eyes and I can love you with my eyes. So check your temperature, actually.

That's good for just with the eyes. And so he drew me on the other side and said, you're going to see your mother very soon. She's just going to take a shower. And as she threw me on the other side, I ended up a few miles away called Birkenau. And one of the inmates pulled my earrings out and yelled at me that while I was going to the theater, she said I was rotting here. And so she took her anger out on me. Today we call it displaced aggression, but I didn't know that.

I just said to her, you know, I would have given you my earrings. And besides, when will I see my mother? And she pointed at the chimney. And fire was coming out of the chimney and said, your mother is burning there. You better talk about her in past tense. And my sister hugged me and she said, makes me cry, and she said, the spirit never dies. The spirit never dies.

So I consider it my duty to celebrate one of the most beautiful gifts of God most beautiful gift of God is the gift of memory and I want to do everything my power to see to it that your children and grandchildren

and great-grandchildren I have seven of those they never experienced what I did I'm for prevention. I'm for a lot of things rather than being against. I'm for life and for uniting and for hopefully having a human family that you can be you and I can be I, but together we're gonna be much stronger. So I invite you and your culture and wherever you are.

And I make a good jubu. I make many Jewish young children become Buddhists. And I think there is a great deal to be said Many Jewish young children become Buddhists. And I think there is a great deal to be said about being awake. Being awake every moment to me is beautiful because I say what I lived. Look at the IQ and the EQ, the emotional IQ, the school of the experience that you had in life. And I'm hoping that people are recognizing that the IQ is fine, but unless you have a good sense about your life, where are you now and where do you want to be,

and pick a goal and then pay attention to what they're focusing on. So it has to be in alignment to have the goal, and the goal is to have freedom. How do you define freedom? By letting go of the concentration camp that you created in your own mind. That's what forgiveness is. You give yourself a gift that you do not carry the people that you hate, that you release them, you let them go.

That's how. That's why forgiveness isn't about me forgiving you for what you did to me. It's for me to liberate myself not to be a prisoner or the hostage of the past. I don't live in Auschwitz. I go through the valley of the shadow of death. I don't camp there or set up house there. But I don't forget it or overcome it. I came to term freedom. I call it my cherished wound.

Yeah. I mean, Edith, your book, I've got marks and underlines on almost every page of this thing. There is wisdom, there's gold. I've been on my own personal inward journey since my father died seven and a half years ago. And lots of the truths that I'm learning are beautifully and very articulately put together in the gift. And it really has been a gift into my life. So I thank you for that once again. But I've got, the first thing I've underlined is on page three, and it's just so powerful. It almost echoes what you just said. As an Auschwitz survivor, I'm here to tell you that the worst prison is not the one the Nazis put me in.

that the worst prison is not the one the Nazis put me in. The worst prison is the one I built for myself. When did you start building that prison and when were you able to get out of it? Before I answer your question, I like to ask you how old were you when your father died? So I'm 43, dad was 12. I was 35 years old when my dad died. when my dad died. So would you consider looking at it from a different perspective,

that you didn't lose your father, that spirit was sent to you for 35 years and you celebrate every moment and then that spirit had to go home I would yeah just how you look at things yeah your father would be very grateful knowing that his son has a full life

that he's interviewing survivors that he is an ambassador for peace. Isn't that a wonderful feeling? Just looking at the same thing from a different perspective. Yeah. Thank you for that. Let me be your ophthalmologist and recognizing that the prison is in our own minds and the key is in our pocket.

We create the Nazi within us. us. I graduated with honors and I never showed up for my graduation because I did not forgive myself that I survived. See, I didn't need the Nazi. I had in my mind, unfortunately, Unfortunately, that part that didn't allow me to celebrate the freedom fully, today I won't do that. ourselves in our own mind needs to be really examined because every behavior satisfies a need and when you have the victim's mentality you're always going to find the victimizer there is no victim without the victimizer and it also gives you a secondary gain also gives you a secondary gain. It gives you the idea that you don't have to do anything, zero. And that's why also yesterday's victims easily become today's victimizers,

because they look at the world two ways. The victim is weak. The victimizer is strong. So part of the psyche will identify with the aggressor. And that's what we call the Stockholm Syndrome, yes.

You identify with the aggressor. And many times children who are beaten unfortunately they grow up and they carry it from generation to generation I do everything

in my power to teach especially fathers the way they treat their children is important because children don't do what we say, they do what they see. And the way he loves his children is the way he treats the mother of their children. of their children.

How he loves and adores and takes care of the mother, his wife, his life mate. So love is not what you feel, it's what you do. Just so powerful. Really, there's such wisdom in what you say, Edith, but there's also, there's love. I can really feel there is love. There's no charge, there's no anger, there's no sense that you're trying to talk down to me or talk down to anyone it's it's it's a really lovely energy that even though we're 3 000 miles away and i'm looking at you through a screen i can still feel it i can feel you too yes our spirit is really connecting well. People don't come to me, they're sent to me. And I couldn't be more really blessed to have you in my life.

And your father is winking now. And he says, like Mr. Higgins, by God, he's got it. Yeah, no, for sure. Why do you think it's so important for fathers, as opposed to mothers, to behave a certain way in front of their children? to behave a certain way in front of their children? I think the fathers are the role models to be a knowledgeable leader, but not a dictator. A father is a man.

There are lots of males running around, lots of boys are running around, but a father who is a man is the knowledgeable leader, a teacher, a protector, a provider. You see, it's It's the family that is really totally protected by a man who was called upon to have a family that looks up at him. Because respect is recognition. That you look at your father and knowing that he is not going to say one thing and do another. That's a definition of a hypocrite. So when the phone rings and you pick up the phone and you tell your father very quietly, daddy, it's for you.

And your father tells you very quietly quietly tell him I'm not here and the following week he's giving you a lecture about honesty you're gonna catch your father very quickly and say hey dad what are we talking about okay children see everything they say you know and i think that's very important with the children to be consistent yeah i train parents to be good parents to themselves so they can be good parents to the children yeah, thank you for that. It's, you know, I've been a father now for 10 years and I've very much changed my parenting style over those 10 years. But a lot of that has come from me clearing out my own closet, you know, looking in the mirror, being honest with

myself, not trying to kid myself and saying, hey, listen, listen, listen, mates, you can't say this and do something different. And I totally agree with you. And certainly this has been my experience that kids don't do what you tell them to do. They do what they see you doing. And that really has been a huge motivator and driver for me to change because I'm thinking, well, if I value my role as a father as one of the most important roles in my life, which I do, then what could be more important to me than addressing my past, getting rid of guilt, shame, anger, all kinds of toxic emotions that I have felt really until very, very recently. And by freeing myself from them, I parent in a different way. The interaction is different.

them, I parent in a different way. The interaction is different. It's more joyful, more happy. But it started with looking in the mirror and being honest with myself. Beautiful that you do that. And you're also called upon to be a guide to others, a guide from darkness to light, from prison to freedom. You know, respect is that someone looks at you and says, I want to be like him. So it's not what we feel, it's what we do, that we commit ourselves. And that's what happened in Auschwitz.

We had to commit to each other. It was cooperation, not competition or domination, because all we had was each other then. And all we have is each other now. How can we empower each other with our differences? Would you mind if I asked you a few more questions about your experience in Auschwitz? Yes. Auschwitz was hell. You know, I usually like to quote Hans Selye, who has a theory on stress. Yeah.

He says, anytime something stressful come to us, we have two automatic responses. We either fight or flee. That did not work in Auschwitz, because if you touch the guards, you were shot right there. And then I witnessed that when people would go and touch the guard and they were shot. There is no way I could flee because if I touch the barbed wire, I was electrocuted and I saw that blue body. So I, I knew what not to do. And I was able to turn the hatred into pity and decided that they were the prisoners. So I became a very talented schizophrenic. I did what I was told every day,

but deep inside, I had my spirit. They could put me in a gas chamber. Any minute, I had no power over it. Four o'clock in the morning when we stood it was called the apparel, they were counting heads and they told us if you don't feel well just stay in the barracks, we're gonna take you to the hospital. We had to discover, it was a place for discovery that there was no hospital. There was the gas chamber. So don't ever stay behind because you'll never see you again.

We had to learn very quickly the rules not to fight or flee, but to stay in a situation. situation and just kind of when they say one day at a time, I would say to myself, if I survive today, then tomorrow I'm going to see my boyfriend because he told me I have beautiful eyes and beautiful hands. So it's the way you create, you create what you think. That's important. Every morning when you get up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say, I love me. Because self-love is self-care. It's not narcissistic. It's not narcissistic.

It's okay to love you and look forward to the day that you create your thinking, you create your feeling, and you create the behavior. So before you say anything, ask yourself, is it kind? Is it really very important and necessary? And if it's not, don't say it. I teach couples how to share silence. Don't ask, how are you? That's the stupidest question. People say, fine.

And I tested that. I tested that because I was professor of psychology and my student told me that in America, people are hearing but not listening. And I said, let's test it tomorrow morning when you pick up your books, someone is going to say hi to you. And you say very quietly, my mother died this morning. Sure enough, the morning someone came, said hi to him. He said, hi, how are you? And my student said, my mother died this morning. And guess what happened? Oh, that's great. I'll see you this afternoon. People are hearing, but not listening. even to the white supremacy member who came to see me and told me how he's going to kill all the Jewish people, all the black people, all the Mexicans, all the Chinese, and not to react.

If I would have reacted, I would have taken that boy and dragged him to the corner. I would step on him and tell him, who do you think you're talking to? I saw my mother going to the gas chamber. But I think that the most obnoxious person is my best teacher. So I think it's very good to look at the bigot in you. Yeah. It's there.

There is a Hitler there. There is a Mother Teresa there. There is kindness. There is goodness. And I think it's very, very important to really change our thinking that can change our lives. Yeah. I'm getting shivers as you're talking because these words of wisdom that you speak, I can feel the truth in them.

You know, I can feel this. I guess this is where I've been coming for a few years. I've really been trying to understand myself, understand human behavior. And I'm fascinated by people. I'm fascinated why someone's ended up in front of me, why they've got a particular illness, why they talk about it in a particular way, why some engage with what you want them to do and others don't engage. And I've never really judged my patients. I've always tried to learn from them and understand. And I guess where I'm currently on in my journey, and what I love about what you just said is I literally do this every day. I look for the friction.

I look for where was I not at ease with something? Where did something bother me? Or where did I feel an emotion? And then my current approach is instead of trying to blame somebody else for that, I go, no, no, no, hold on. This is me. What is this bringing up in me? Because that's what I can control. I can control my reaction. So if I'm, no, no, no, hold on. This is me. What is this bringing up in me? Because that's what I can control. I can control my reaction. So if I'm getting triggered, what is it triggering? So I spend my life now going inwards. And I got to say, it's so rewarding

because what could be better than understanding yourself? Oh, that is so beautiful because you said the magic word, trigger. It has nothing to do what's going on this minute with that person. That person is triggering something in me that is totally mine, unfinished, emotional, family of origin business. See? So then you're grateful. And you say, tell me more.

Because love is time, T-I-M-E. And it's very hard to give time, right? How much time do they give you with a person 15 20 minutes 10 10 minutes yeah 10 minutes 10 minutes Every moment is changing their lives. Don't try to understand things. That belongs to a classroom. It's all in your head. Just go to the heart and just say sounds like and then put a feeling word next to it.

Sounds like you're angry about that. I did that with a general. Okay. And he said about the daughter, a teenage daughter who was smoking pot and telling the father

all kinds of unfortunate labels, dictator and so on. And labels, dictator, and so on. And you cannot change what other people are going to say to you, but you can say, the more they talk, the more relaxed I become. That you take the negative stimuli and turn it into positive. You see?

And then you say, I'm practicing my low frustration tolerance level. So you, I'm not a shrink, I'm a stretch. You are a stretch. And they really are testing you, pushing your buttons to not to react because when you react you don't think but how to respond just take a deep breath you cannot change the external circumstance i could not change that the external circumstance. I could not change that.

But I actually looked at the guards, that they were the prisoners, not me. That I was innocent. And when a woman tells me somebody touched me inappropriately, and I don't know how to tell you because you were in Auschwitz. And I tell that woman, you were more in prison than I was because I knew the enemy. I was told I'm never going to get out of here alive.

I was told I'm cancer to society. And the only way I will get out of here is a corpse. And they took my blood many, many times. And one time I asked, why are you taking my blood? And he said to aid the German soldiers so we can win the war and take over the world. I couldn't yank my arm away, right? But I said to Miles, you stupid idiot. I was a ballerina.

With my blood, you're never going to win the war. And so I had my humor, you know, sarcasm, cynicism, whatever kind of humor that really kept us alive. But it is very important for you to know that many people can do what you can do, but not the way you can do that. You're unique. You're one of a kind. I love the way you are with me. You see, I see the honesty and the humanness accepting the fact that you're human and you make mistakes. And you will make mistakes because we don't have any godly powers. We're humans.

And it's okay not to be perfect. Yeah. And by the way, when you are a perfectionist, you're going to procrastinate. you're going to procrastinate. Keep that in mind that you want to do everything just right. And when my granddaughter was in a class and the IQ was 148, she was a perfectionist. And I went to visit the class and she would erase one thing a million times and the teacher called her

my little red caboose. That's the train, the last car on a train. It's called a red caboose. So she thought she doesn't qualify to stay in that class. And she was ready to check out. And she was about 10 years old. And the first time I talked to her about Auschwitz on a 10-year-old level. So you have to know age-wise who you're talking to. I cannot talk to a 10-year-old about cognitive dissonance. I can talk to you about it, but I think we need to learn how to meet people when they are

and then treat them the way you want them to be. So I told her not to allow the teacher to call her names. I don't like labels. Anyway, I succeeded. She went back to school. And when it was time to write letters to get to colleges, you have to write your autobiography. And the title was When the Caboose Became an Engine. And she got into Princeton. She graduated with honors. She got a UCLA, got a PhD, and she's a professor of psychology today.

So you see, you got to question authority rather than blindly adhere to authority. I also like to tell you that Ahmad Dijdad said many years ago, and I was interviewed by the same person, Larry King. He said that the Holocaust did not exist, and I'm quite sure that Ahmadinejad did not read Plato,

who said, you have to think of a lie. It has to be a big one, and then you repeat it, repeat it, until people believe it. So our biggest enemy is ignorance and it's very very important to look at the small towns when people are hearing a preacher and talking against this one or against that one, and be sure that children question authority rather than blindly adhere to authority. Yeah. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show.

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shot and you saw some of your fellow inmates doing that. And the question that rose up for me is, do you think that some of them did that on purpose because they couldn't take it anymore and they knew if they touched a guard that it would be over? I had a friend who was so proud that her father ran into the barbed wire, that he took charge of his life. You know, that is dead. I was 16 in love.

I wanted to do everything in my power not to ever allow them to take over. That spirit that is with me now, that spirit that you're reading, because people ask me for a how-to book. They wanted to know what can be done in a challenging situation. So there is no problem.

There are only challenges. There is no crisis. There is only transition. Yeah. So if you approach midlife, don't talk about crisis, talk about transition because you're going to give up your need

to please other people. You're going to give up the need for other people's approval. You regain your power. You give birth to the you that is free at last some people may listen to this and listen to your story

and go wow she's an incredible lady which I completely agree with but they may go one step further and they may say well she's special. She's got a superpower. I'm not like her. She was able to overcome what she went through and come out the other side. She's stronger than me. What would you say to someone who's feeling like that?

that? Get rid of the word overcome. I don't forget. I do not overcome. I come to terms with it. Part of me was left in Auschwitz. I want to be a realist, not an idealist. Life is difficult. The more I suffer, the stronger I become. I did not ask to go to Auschwitz. You did not ask to be touched inappropriately. You did not ask to be daddy's little woman, like when you watch Gone with the Wind, the movie. It's a wonderful movie to talk about and take each, every one of those wonderful characters that he doesn't take his wife to London, he takes the little girl to London. And that's why I ask many people, when did your childhood end? See, because many children have to take care of their parents. If father is an alcoholic, if mother doesn't get up until four o'clock in the afternoon because she has migraine headaches. I think it's very

important to ask yourself, when did my childhood end? If you're a child of an immigrant, my little girl was two years old when we came to America. She taught me how to speak English. She taught me how to buy peanut butter. I never saw peanut butter in my whole life or tuna fish, you know, so the children become parentized. So you got to kind of see whether you went through the ages and stages of life. The person to really study is Piaget, and Piaget is a Swiss psychologist studying the ages and stages of our development. And many, many people are grieving over childhood

or the teenage years they never had. Yeah, for sure. One of the things I've heard you say before is, I don't want you to hear my story and say, my own suffering is insignificant. I want you to hear it and say, if she can do it, so can I. It was such a wonderful thing to read. And it sort of partners very nicely with another thing you say in the book, which is there is no hierarchy in trauma. And I think this is such an important point. And actually, this morning,

I mean, I'm talking to you in the British evening. I'm sure it's morning, I think, for you in California. And I had a conversation with someone today about just about racism and actually how we can talk about race to our children. And as we were talking about it afterwards, this whole idea came up that sometimes in life, if we hear that someone has suffered more than us, there's often a guilt that happens. And we think, oh, well, I can't really tell them how I'm feeling because my suffering is nothing compared to theirs. And I thought the way you put it in the book, there's no hierarchy and trauma was just so beautiful.

The way you put it in the book, there's no hierarchy in trauma, was just so beautiful. No, because it's in my book, The Choice, when a woman came and the daughter was dying of hemophilia and we cried and cried. And the following hour, someone cried the same way because her Cadillac was delivered and it was not the same shade that she expected. So do I tell that woman, you stupid idiot, you should have been here an hour ago? Don't minimize or trivialize anything. Suffering is a feeling.

It's part of life. It's good to invite it in when you get triggered. Feel that feeling, but then you decide how long you're going to hold on to that feeling. Any behavior satisfies a need. And if you're a victim, you're going to gain a lot because you don't have to do anything. You're always going to find a victimizer. And couples do that too. The victim becomes the victimizer, goes back and forth and back and forth.

I don't know if that means any sense to you. But all I can tell you that man created patriarchy. And the Bible even says that the woman comes to the world to please man and take care of man. to please man and take care of man. If I would be a man, I would do the same thing, that you marry someone who is a virgin, you marry someone who is younger, so God forbid that she'll find out that another man is a better lover. You know, it's very well defined that the man is the king. defined that the man is the king. And it's okay if she is the queen and the children are the princess and the princesses. There is nothing wrong with that, but the man has to use his power to be the role model

to the children who are looking at that father and say, I want to be just like him. Or I want to be everything he's not. Yeah. Can you relate it to that? Yeah. That boy especially looks at dad and says, I want to be just like him. Or there is no way I'm I want to be just like him, or there is no way I'm ever going to be like my father. And guess what?

He grows up and he decides to be a caregiver, even though the father wants him to join his business or become a doctor just like him. That's no problem because the son chose to give up the need for his father's approval. See, there is, you've got to give up something. And that's no problem. But when he says, I'm never going to be like my father,

then he's a rebel. And if you are wanting to prove something, you're still a prisoner. Yeah. If you want to prove something, you're still not free. So if you want to prove something to somebody else, there's still charge, isn't it? There's still emotion behind that.

You're still a child and you don't know how to just let go. Oh, my father is my father. I carry half of it in my blood., my father is my father. I carry half of it in my blood. Half of it is my mother. Half of it is my father. And I'm going to make peace with my father. I don't have to be like him.

He can be himself and I can be I. And hopefully we can empower each other with our differences. You don't come from an agenda. In marriage too, when a woman said, my love is going to cure him and he's going to stop drinking. No, he's already married

to the alcohol. He's an addict. She doesn't realize that love is something that you accept someone just the way they are. way they are. When I marry him and I'm going to love him, he's going to stop drinking. That's not reality. Or a alcoholic, anything that you do excess, you got to look at addiction. Yeah. You mentioned that you would say if you, or when you wake up tomorrow, I think you said you'll see your boyfriends. Was it the thought of your boyfriend that kept you going? Was that the picture you painted inside your mind to keep you going. And also along with that, how important is it for all of us, no matter who we are or where we are in life, to have something outside ourselves to be holding onto and to serve others, I guess is what I'm trying to say, is how important was

that to help get you through? But how important is it for those of us who haven't been through what you went through, but are still struggling? You are so brilliant. But I'm going to give you one word that guided me to survive. And the word is curiosity. I always wanted to know what's going to happen next.

I was curious. There is no way I wanted to ever do anything other than wanting to know what's going to happen next. And who knows what's going to happen next? You may find your freedom and you may find out that you can discover within you that you never thought was possible, that no one can take away the way you think about anything, your attitude, your responses, your opportunity to pray for the guards, because they were the prisoners.

So it's just what you think you create, that is very true. So if you use words like I always, I never, you know, a woman tells me, I gotta find a man. And I say to her, you know what? If I were a man, I would run from you. See, she's operating on a very negative self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm always this. I'm never that. Get rid of those words.

They are absolutistic. Just say up till now I did this. And now I can read the gift and I have a choice. The more choices you have, the less you feel like a victim. You bring up this very important concept of language and the words we use to describe things. Now, I'm going to share with you that I actually, generally speaking, no longer say to my knowledge, I lost my dad. But for some reason in this conversation early on, it popped out. So clearly I haven't fully eliminated that because normally I don't say it anymore, but for some reason I did. And why I'm sharing that is because

I've been really feeling over the last few years, and this is something that my wife and I spend a lot of time with our kids doing, is being very mindful of words. Like if the kids say, oh, I'm never good at it. Oh, you know, that always happens. It's like, hold on. Is that true? Is that really true? How about we rephrase that? Or if they say something like, oh man, I need that. Do you need that? And I tell you, my daughter who's only seven, she gets this. Like she calls me out now, daddy, do you really, do you need that? You mean you want it? I'm like, okay, thanks, darling. Thanks for letting me know. So I guess what I want to ask you is how important are the words we use? And then you're writing this brilliant world,

life-changing books in your 90s but how can we teach those lessons to children so they don't need to wait till midlife and later life to learn what you've learned and what you're trying to teach us now beautiful needs are things without which we cannot survive. Period. We need to breathe. Without air, we cannot go on beyond four minutes. We need to sleep. After three days, we hallucinate.

We need to sleep. We need to eat eventually. I know for about two weeks, I didn't get any food. I know that Gandhi went possibly a month without food. And people say, you know, I need to go downtown. I need to take care of this and that. And that's not a need. That's a want. And why is it important that we get this right? Because some people will go, yeah, but this is just colloquial talk. It doesn't matter. But I suspect you think as I do that it actually does matter.

It does matter. And also people have the rules that are very rigid rather than flexible. I need to write a letter to my mother. I need to call my mother every day. My sister Clara made her granddaughter call her every morning 8 o'clock and sing a Hungarian song. Otherwise she was going to be punished. You see, my sister was a very controlling person. And you know what? That kid didn't want to go to grandma after that.

She really didn't know how to be a grandma. Okay? You get to learn two things, negotiate and compromise. You make a deal with your child. Daddy gave me $50. But don't tell me what to do with your $50. That's a child.

They want all the freedom and no responsibility. So you write the constitution for your family that you work as a team. You have two children. then you have four wheels. And that four wheels is necessary because if one of them goes, the other three goes with it. That you have rules. Right, Dan? America has a constitution.

You write your constitution. Yeah. But there is no punishment, only consequence. So if you don't do this and this and this, that means the weekend you stay home. and this, that means the weekend you stay home. See, you talk about rules and the children are part of the decision-making process. It's not me telling you what you should do. Get rid of that word.

You could. It's called assertive discipline. So if I am a school teacher, I am satisfied. And if you make noises in my class, I'm coming to you and tell you, you know, I get paid for teaching this class and if you make noises it really interferes with my process so you see I'm giving you a choice to leave or stay here

quietly because there is no freedom without responsibility it's anarchy yeah without responsibility. It's anarchy. Yeah. So love is, again, not what you feel, it's what you do.

And you do for the betterment of that family. And I think you can teach the seven-year-old how to put the dishes in a dishwasher. It has to be age appropriate. Yeah. So you have a seven-year-old daughter and? A 10-year-old son. Okay. So the seven-year-old daughter will tell you, I want to go to bed when my brother goes to bed.

I don't want to go to bed earlier. Am I saying something? Yeah. Okay. And I hate you, Daddy. I hate you, Mommy. And I say, and the child says, why do I have to go to bed early? And why do you tell me?

And mommy said, because I'm a good mommy, and that's what good mommies do, rather than because I said so. That's stupid. What do you mean I said so that's how I grew up that's how I grew up before I said so

there was no conversation so what do you want what kind of family do you want do you want dictatorship do you want to be a knowledgeable leader? I'm sure you are. I don't have to tell you any of that. You create an atmosphere where children can without the fear of being judged. Yeah.

It is not like, you know, bad or good. No, no, no. No. One thing we started doing this summer, Edith, and I think this was actually, I took about three weeks off social media. I just went off and it was an incredible time because I was able to really tap into who I was, what I was feeling without having to listen to the noise of the world or not having to, because I never had to. It was a choice. I made the choice for three weeks to turn off the noise from outside so I could go in inwards. And in that time,

I started to write down some of my own personal values. I really used to think about what are they? What are the values by which I want to live my life? And then I had the idea while I was walking in the woods thinking about, I thought, oh, why don't we do this as a family? And so one dinner time or just before mealtime, I think, we sat down, the four of us, and we all had to contribute. And we came up with five values or so so and we all had to agree. So I said, you know, mummy and daddy can't enforce any of these values at all. We all have to agree. So once everyone had a chance to come up with their own value and we went around the table and everyone had to say whether they agreed or not. And what's been really great about it, and this is just an experiment that I've been trying with my wife,

is that if one of us has done something that is not aligned with that value, then the conversation goes, like, let's say it's one of my children. The conversation is, okay, so was what you did there aligned with the values that we've all agreed on? And I'm finding it really effective because it's not anyone telling one another what they've done or what they haven't done. It's really treating people with respect and saying, hey, look, we all agree to this. Yeah, actually, you know what? I've done something that's not aligned with that. We all agree to this. Yeah, actually, you know what? I've done something that's not aligned with that.

I'm going to recognize that and make a change. Is that the sort of thing you're talking about? Well, I like things to be written down. So you avoid what I thought you said. I think you said, I think you said, and no, you write down what if then, if then, if this happened then, you know, and then you hear your child saying, because sometimes we say, I understand, when we don't. When I came to America, people spoke to me and they wanted to know if I really get it. And I would say yes, even though I had no idea what they were talking about. So I think you want to be sure that you hear exactly.

So I think you want to be sure that you hear exactly. Then you write it down and sign it on a dotted line and have it notarized that those are the rules. Yeah. We are for cooperation, not competition or domination. But I was made before you, and that's why I am an adult. And your brain doesn't develop until you're 25. So a child does not play with a full card until they're 25. And that's why you have to really know how to talk to a child who is limited, not limitless.

You got to study the ages and stages of development. You talk about cooperation, You talk about cooperation and one of the many striking things about your life story that I've read about is how even in Auschwitz, kindness and cooperation was absolutely key. It was key for you to survive. And actually, not only was it key for you to survive, it potentially saved your life at a point later on, I believe, when you were starving and very, very hungry. When Dr. Mengele gave me a piece of bread, I could have gobbled it all up.

And I chose to climb up and share it with the girls. And later on, when I was in that march, going from Mauthausen to Gunskirchen, and if I would have stopped, I would have been shot right away. I revisited that place, every place I was, and I looked at those places that I could have been shot, and the girls that I shared the bread with saw me stopping, and they came came and they carried me. They formed a chair with their arms and they carried me so I wouldn't die. All we had was each other then and all we

have is each other now. And cannibalism broke out. And when people were eating other people's flesh, I begged people to watch a movie called The Sound of Music. Because I asked God to help me because I cannot possibly touch human flesh. because I cannot possibly touch human flesh. And God said, just look down. And I realized, I discovered that I still have grass to eat.

And I remember then choosing one blade of grass over and against the other. So I can't is not in my vocabulary. When I go to a classroom, I run to the blackboard. I put I can't equal I am helpless. And then I take the eraser and take the apostrophe and a T. I can. Why? Because I think I can. The whole cognitive psychology based on a philosopher called Epictetus

who said, it's not what happens makes you feel the way you feel, it's the way you view it. Yeah. You know, this idea that we have the power, we have the power to choose. If we take some common scenarios, right? So, you know, I made a little video on judgment the other day and I sort of released it. And it really connected well with people. But one person replied and said, wrong and look, I love the video. I find it really, really helpful.

I can do it. I can not judge others. I can forgive others. But the one person I can't forgive is the neighbor who was cruel to my elderly mother before she died. Okay. So that's one thing. And then other common scenarios that I hear, let's say someone's husband has cheated on them, right? The common narrative is, it's okay then to be a victim because on one level you are a victim, or that is the perception, right? And so how would you help someone understand that and say, okay, something that you didn't want, that you didn't expect, that you didn't ask for has happened to you, but the power is in what you do and how you view that situation. I mean, can you help maybe someone's listening or watching this right now who's going through some of those scenarios, how would you

help them understand that actually they can choose the way they think about that situation? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health. And together, we're going to learn the

skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour and I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision-making,

and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most

impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is

go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. I had a woman who came to see me with a big cross. And I studied with Carl Rogers and I learned from him unconditional positive regard to anyone who comes to see me. Even if they're a member of the white supremacy group. they're a member of the white supremacy group. So this woman came in and I talked to her and then she said to me, I'm so glad I finally found a good Christian counselor like you. So I'm not saying anything because Jesus was a poor little boy who was Jewish, you know, so I thought to

myself, that's okay. So we went on and then she became very angry. My husband cheated on me. I hate him. I want to kill him. I don't know if I could ever forgive him. Shaking her fist, and I very quietly said to her, would you be so kind and repeat what I'm going to say? She didn't like me anymore. What? She said. And I said, I forgive myself for putting judgment on my husband. And she wanted to kill me. It's not fair.

How can you say that? And then I say, what did Jesus say to the woman who committed adultery? So forgiveness is about not you forgiving anyone for anything. Not you forgiving anyone for anything. It's for you to liberate yourself and give yourself a gift. Because you don't have godly powers. The judgment is not done by you. You do what's humanly possible and then you hand it over. Are you a Muslim? I'm a Hindu by upbringing. Yes, so you hand it over, you know, to some

you know, to some higher power that you limited. So forgiveness is not about people telling me, you're such a good person. No, no, I'm selfish. I want to have joy. I want to have joy. I want to have passion. This woman didn't know whether she should ever take her husband back. And he's going to be in a doghouse because she's using sex as some kind of a trade-off. That's not good thinking.

So I think it's very, very important when people talk about forgiveness. We don't have such powers as humans, but we don't have to be a prisoner or a hostage of the past. I live in the present. I can only touch you now. I don't forget the past. I don't overcome it. I came to terms with it.

There is a big difference. I don't live in Auschwitz. I live in the present prison and I think young but not young and foolish so I'm not smart I'm wise hopefully and the best thing on that is watch the movie Fiddler on the Roof

when that woman knows that her husband needs to feel that he makes all the decisions in a family, and guess who makes the decisions? She doesn't have any ego needs. She makes the decisions and makes her husband feel

that he makes all the decisions. And that's a wise woman. I'm sure you've married such a woman. Yeah. You have a modern marriage and you work as a team with each other because the pioneer woman worked alongside with the husband. Women became emotionally and financially dependent on a man. And that's when the wife beating began.

So you really have to study patriarchy. Yeah. There's that theme, isn't there? When you say if you're a victim, there's a there's a theme isn't there when you say if you're a victim there's a victimizer but we can choose to not maintain that dynamic if we want it's it's yeah it's it's so simple yet so powerful it takes it takes one to stop it it you. You have to victim, victimizer, and it flip-flops many times in marriage, but it takes one to stop it.

So when someone talks to you, you want to ask whose problem is it? Because when people want to put that monkey on your back, you very gently put it back where it belongs. Otherwise, you become a rescuer. Yeah. I mean, on the subject of couples, there's a line that I wrote down from the book. When a couple say they never fight, you say that you don't have intimacy either.

And that stopped me in my tracks. And I wonder if you could just expand upon that, please. First of all, intimacy requires vulnerability. There is no intimacy. there is no intimacy and nothing blocks intimacy more than low level chronic anger so I tell you what many wives do

from my 40 years of experience. She doesn't want to go to bed with him. She really doesn't want to go to bed with him. She's tired. But then she does because she thinks she should. That's what good wives do. And then she resents the fact that she did something

that she didn't want to do and she can fluctuate from guilt to resentment that's not good it's not good so you got to really take time out and see how you can find intimacy and have non-sexual intimacy.

because when you say let's go to bed, you may not know what you're really saying. She thinks what you're really saying, let's have sex. But you just say, you know, let's go to bed. You need to kind of clear things out sometimes because some people just react rather than really questioning what you really, is this true? Is this what you meant? And you say yes or no, that you kind of clear things out that what you're saying and what a person is receiving, that

you're on the same page. Once you have children many times for many women, the children come first and then the husband. That's not good for the children. The children need to know

that mommy and daddy are on the same page. It's not good to spoil your children. They were the first ones to die in Auschwitz because poor children are waiting for something to happen from the outside. And nothing happened. And nothing happened. And they died.

Dependency breeds depression. And my daughter calls it idioms. I give you two. Okay, the opposite of depression is expression. What comes out of your body doesn't make you ill. What stays in there does. The question again is, are you revolving or are you evolving? I usually wear a butterfly scarf.

I'm not wearing it now. I like the idea of the metamorphosis. And then we shed the chrysalis so we can fly freely like a butterfly. The other questions I ask, when did your childhood end? Because many children have to take care of a sick mommy or a daddy who is possibly drinks too much or so on one more question would you like to be married to you that's a great question what was the question just before? When did your childhood end? x y and z what can they do with that because you're you're giving them an awareness but some people will go okay i've got the awareness now but what do i do next you go to see someone like dr

edith and revisit the places where you've been and find that eight-year-old and speak with the eight-year-old on the language of an eight-year-old so they can feel that feeling of powerlessness so they have to give up their true self to fit that family dynamics. And someone who can hold your hand and get you through that,

that no matter what happened, you made it. So the question is not why me, but what now? But it's okay to say why me. It's okay to grieve because you have to go through the rage. You don't cover garlic with chocolate. Yeah. Is rage good?

Can rage be part of the healing process? You can't heal what you don't feel. So don't medicate grief. It's a natural reaction to a loss and don't minimize it or trivialize it. Yeah.

So you feel that rage but don't get addicted to it. Don't get stuck in there. Some people are totally chronically angry, but there are other emotions under anger. A lot of pain.

I see a lot of pain, a lot of frustration and pain. And of course, most of all, anger is not a primary emotion. Underneath anger, I find a lot of fear. And you can write down all your fears. Remember, you were born with it, you learned it. And then you can get rid of it with a positive reinforcement. For one negative, you can write down five positive. You know, you can do, you know, you don't have to go years and years to therapy, not at all. You can be flexible rather than rigid. You stop blaming and you become very

responsible. And I think that you acknowledge that when you're a survivor, you're also not thinking anything other than setting good boundaries with people, because you've got to accept limitations and boundaries. And you have to give up a need for revenge, because while you are having revenge, you're very punitive and very vengeful, and it's not going to give you the spiritual freedom that forgiveness does. Yeah.

Edith, look, I want to be very respectful of your time. You, you know, I really have had shivers on many occasions during our conversation. I think what you've been through, what you're now sharing with us has so much value to all of us. And I really will take from this that it's, if she can do it, so can I. I want everyone who's listening to this, if she can do it, so can I. You know, I want everyone who's listening to this, if she can do it, so can I. I think it's a wonderful, wonderful sentiment. I got to say, I can't recommend your book, The Gift, more. I think it's essential reading for everyone. I think it's a gift that we'll keep on giving because you'll come back to it as I do at various times on different mornings when different things are going on in my life. And the phrases have

slightly different relevance. And, oh, something happened yesterday where I got triggered. Oh, that's a nice little reminder. And so I really think it's one of those books that people can dip in and out of. And I think it's a wonderful, wonderful gift to the world. My dream would have been to have done this face-to-face, you know, until the pandemic, I did all my conversations face-to-face. I'd come to LA twice a year, do face-to-face conversations. I very much hope at some point in the future, things do return where people can travel and visit. It would be an honor to meet you face to face one day and continue this conversation um but i love to have you in my home

i love you to meet my assistant precious katie and uh and to be always solution-oriented rather than problem-oriented and not to blame but to be responsible for what we're thinking, feeling, and behaving. You're a wonderful role model. I love to see you in my kitchen cooking some Indian food. That's a deal. That's a deal. I will come to your kitchen. I will cook you something when this is all over. But just to finish off, Edith, for people listening now, for someone who's struggling in their life, who feels they can't see a way out, have you got any closing words that people can use as inspiration to

take them on in their lives? Just a little mantra. Yes, I am. Yes, I can. Yes, I will. you have a choice. You have a choice. Embrace that feeling. Invite that feeling in. I hope my book is going to be in a hospital and there are no crises. There are only transitions. There are no problems. There are only challenges. Edith, it has been my absolute honor to have almost two hours with you today. Thank you so much. And I really, really look forward to next time

we get to talk in person in your kitchen. Namaste. Namaste. in your kitchen. Namaste. Namaste. What a powerful conversation. I really hope you enjoyed listening. Do check out Edith's books, of course, they are absolutely fantastic. And as always, think about one thing that you can take away from this conversation and start applying into your own life. I had this conversation with Edith almost 18 months ago and I think about it often that the big takeaway for me from it was that the greatest prison we can ever live inside is the prison we create inside our own minds. I think about that a lot. I've worked really hard at practicing reframing every situation in life to

the point now where I kind of do it automatically right and that's why I'm passionate about these kind of ideas we may find it hard initially but if we practice we can get better thank you so much for listening have a wonderful week I will be back this wednesday with a brand new episode of the podcast and always remember you are the architect of your own health making lifestyle changes always worth it because when you feel better you live more