Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #272 Dr Rangan Chatterjee: My 3 Biggest Failures In Life

Episode Date: May 17, 2022

This week, I decided to do something a little bit different - instead of me inviting a guest onto my podcast and speaking to them about their ideas and work, I'm releasing a conversation that I had back in February with the wonderful Elizabeth Day on her podcast, How To Fail. Her podcast is about celebrating the things that have not gone right in our life and is centred around the topic of failure and learning from our mistakes.   In this conversation, I share with Elizabeth what I consider to be my three biggest failures in life. We talk about happiness and Elizabeth asks me about my latest book, Happy Mind, Happy Life. We also chat about people-pleasing, authenticity, low self-worth and the harmful consequences of doing things solely for external validation. I also share how I met my wife and why these days, I feel happier and more content than ever before.   This really was a powerful, intimate and revealing conversation. I hope you enjoy listening.  Thanks to our sponsors: https://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore https://www.leafyard.com/livemore https://www.blublox.com/livemore Order Dr Chatterjee's new book Happy Mind, Happy Life: UK version: https://amzn.to/304opgJ, US & Canada version: https://amzn.to/3DRxjgp Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/3oAKmxi. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/272 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified health care provider with any questions you have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Hi, my name is Rangan Chatterjee. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More. So this week, I've decided to do something a little bit different on my show. Instead of me inviting a guest onto my podcast and speaking to them about their ideas and work, instead, I'm releasing a conversation I had with the wonderful Elizabeth Day on her podcast. And many of you have fed back to me that you have really been enjoying hearing me speak at length on other people's podcasts recently, something I've been doing a lot over the past few months to raise awareness of my latest book, Happy Minds, Happy Life. And all the way back in February,

I was invited onto a podcast called How to Fail, which is hosted by the author and broadcaster, Elizabeth Day. Now her podcast is about celebrating the things that have not gone right in our life and is centered around the topic of failure. And when I spoke to Elizabeth on her show, I shared with her what I consider to be my three biggest failures in life. We also talked about a range of different topics, including people pleasing, authenticity, low self-worth, and the harmful consequences of doing things solely for external validation. We also spoke about how exactly I met my wife and why these days I feel happier and more content than ever before. This really was a powerful, intimate and revealing conversation that Elizabeth and I both felt would be of real interest for listeners of my own podcast. A huge thank you to Elizabeth for agreeing to allow me to release this conversation on my own podcast feeds.

I hope you enjoy listening. And now, me in conversation with Elizabeth Day. My guest today is widely regarded as one of the most influential doctors in the UK. But although he's been a practicing GP for 20 years, during his time treating patients, Chatterjee began to feel something was lacking. Sometimes he realised a patient didn't need medication so much as lifestyle change. It was this realisation which sparked a second career as an advocate for progressive medicine. Now he is a TED talker, a Sunday Times best-selling author and a broadcaster who regularly appears on TV and radio. His podcast, Feel Better, Live More, is regularly in the top of the charts. Chatterjee is an eloquent proponent of the ability of each individual to transform their health and their happiness through making small, sustainable, everyday changes.

His new book, Happy Mind, Happy Life, is no exception. In 10 chapters, Chatterjee offers a calm, wise, scientifically backed guide to living a more contented existence. Happiness, he writes, is something anyone can grow with the right kind of practice. Welcome to How to Fail. This has been a long time in the making, but I'm so glad to have you here. And I wanted to talk about that quote, that idea that happiness is something anyone can grow with the right kind of practice. Is that really true? Yes, I think it absolutely is. I think it's a great question. And it's something I've spent a lot of time thinking about over the past few years. You know, it's easy to say that actually, you know, society influences how much of how we feel and our happiness. And of course, there's a lot of inequality in society. There's lots of things I would like to change. Fairness,

equality, better access to services for all kinds of people. There's no question about that. But actually, at its core, I really do feel strongly that happiness is a skill that we can all develop no matter what state our lives are in, no matter what our income level, right? And we can cover income level because I think that's important. I'm not at all saying that income has no relevance to happiness. It absolutely does up to a point, but I have worked as a medical doctor now for over 20 years. I spent seven years of my career in a place called Oldham in North Manchester in a city practice. And, you know, that practice had a lot of patients who were, you know, in the sort of

lowest socioeconomic status. And they were really struggling with many aspects of life. A lot of them were working two or three jobs. A lot of them were immigrants. A lot of them were on benefits. jobs, a lot of them were immigrants, a lot of them were on benefits. And even in that scenario, when you apply some simple principles, when you sort of change how you think about situations, you can absolutely feel happier in and with your life. So I'm super passionate that we can all work on our happiness. And it's something I've been doing over the last few years. I feel probably about as happy and content as I've ever felt. And if I think about the things that I've done, these are universal principles that apply to anyone. So, you know, that's a very long-winded answer to your question. Can we all develop it? Yes, we can. And reading your book, you've got

such a lovely writing style, because it honestly feels like being guided through what are sometimes complex ideas and sometimes straightforward concepts. But you're being guided through by someone who's expert, but also like your best friend. It really opened my eyes to a lot of things, this book. And one of the ways in which you express happiness is that you divide it into two segments. So there's core happiness and there's junk happiness. And you express core happiness as a three-legged stool. Will you tell us about that and the difference between core happiness and junk happiness? Yeah, I think we are all craving happiness. I really do. I think it's

almost become uncool to say that now because we say, no, we shouldn't be chasing happiness. We should be chasing meaning or purpose. I'm not saying we shouldn't be chasing meaning or purpose, but I don't think that in and of itself is happiness. I think where we get waylaid with happiness is when we think necessarily that actually we get drunk with our friends and have half a bottle of wine and we feel euphoric in the moment, yet the following morning we might have a headache and feel really guilty and potentially even shameful about certain aspects of the night before. We sort of intertwine what I think are two very different types of happiness. And as you say,

in the book, I have written about them as core happiness and junk happiness. So core happiness, I think, is what we are all striving for and keen to get in our life. And this three-legged stool is this kind of concept I came up with to sort of feed throughout the entire book so people can see what recommendations I make and how it affects their core happiness. So these three legs are alignment, control, and contentment. And I think it's a very simple way that we can all think about happiness. So alignment is when our inner values and our external actions line up. So the person we want to be and the person we are actually being in the world are one and the same. So that's alignment.

So that's one leg of the stool. Another leg of the stool is control. Do we feel a sense of agency over our lives? Do we feel that the world around us is predictable and safe? feel that the world around us is predictable and safe? And the final leg of the stool is contentment. So do we feel a degree of calm about our life? Do we feel at peace with the decisions that we're making? And I think when you really break down what happiness is, I think core happiness is those three things. And differing things that you do in your life will strengthen different legs of the stool. And the way I want people to think about it really is this, if you go to the gym every day and lift weights, you are going to get physically stronger. And I want people to think of core happiness like that in the sense that if you work on your happiness

each day in very small ways, you start to strengthen the legs of that stool. So that stool becomes more upright. It becomes more stable. And as it does, you become happier in your life and with your life, and you become more resilient to the challenges that you will inevitably face. So that's core happiness. Let me contrast that with junk happiness. And I think all of us have junk happiness habits, whether that be endlessly scrolling Instagram in the evening or diving into a tub of Ben and Jerry's to sort of heal the hole that we might have in our hearts. We often do that. We comfort each other to make ourselves feel better. Or if we're feeling lonely and we dive into half a bottle of wine in the evening, I'm not criticizing. And I hope there's nothing critical or talking down to people in the book.

I'm trying to share information and say, look, it's okay. I'm not saying junk happiness habits are always bad. Not at all. The problem is, is if we engage in them too regularly, or the problem also comes as if we mistake that for true happiness, because it ain't true happiness. It is often a coping tool. It's often something that we may wish to engage in. But what I want to bring to people with all my work, but also with this new book is, you know, awareness. If you are looking at Instagram for two hours in the evening, that's okay. But let us understand what that's doing for you. Are you lonely? And that's giving you a sort of sense of connection. Are you unhappy in your home life with your partner, with your kids, and actually you want to escape from

that and distract? That's okay, but you'll never change the behavior unless you actually understand what's driving it. Yeah, you say this thing in the book about treating your phone as if it were a person, which I thought was so clever, because you make the point, like, how would your partner feel if your phone were a person, and you were spending that amount of time when you were mid-conversation with your partner, and you were actually scrolling through your phone? Imagine if that was, I don't know, like an intense friend or a sort of illicit lover. And I thought that that was such a simple way of conveying something that affects so many of us. I wanted to ask you about people who feel like they're failing at happiness.

Because positive psychology has been so wonderful for so many individuals. And it also has a somewhat negative corollary sometimes in which people feel that they are only allowed good vibes. It's that good vibes only mentality. And so when they feel sad, they try and ignore it or they feel like they're failing and they can't be open about it because happiness should be so simple, right? So what do you say to those people? Yeah, I think you raise a fantastic point there, which is the kind of negative connotations of happiness. And can we feel as if we are failing and if we think the world around us is happy or the people around us are happier than us, you know, what does that do to us? And I think there's a couple of ways you can look at that.

Happiness for me is not about feeling positive emotions all of the time. Like it really isn't. So we've just spoken about the core happiness stool and one of the legs is alignment, right? So the way you are inside and the way you are in the outside world is one and of the same. So if you are faking that you are happy when inside you're really not, actually you're not living in alignment, are you? There is an incongruence between who you actually are, what you really are feeling and how you are being. So this kind of fake it until you make it kind of concept. Well, I think it has value in certain instances, but if we do that too much, I think we start to change who we are. And actually, it leaves a big void in our lives, which then we then go and try and fill

with these junk happiness habits. So that's one aspect of answering your question. I think the other aspects of people who feel that they're failing at happiness is I don't think you can really fail at happiness, right? It's a skill that you can get better at. So whatever your current starting point, you can learn the skill of becoming happier. So I'll give you a very simple example. One of the chapters in the book is called Talk to Strangers. This is this whole idea that micro connections, these people that we interact with on a daily basis that, you know, we don't have to share our entire life story with, but we can say hi to, flash a smile to, engage in a little bit of small talk like the postman or the Amazon delivery driver or the barista at your local coffee shop.

You know, whoever it is, we know that that makes us happier. There's lots of research showing that when you flash a smile at a stranger like that, you feel more positive in yourself. That lasts throughout the day. And bit by bit, that helps to strengthen your core happiness because what it does is it helps you feel a sense of control over your life. The world feels safe. There's these networks in your brain that scientists call the sociometer, which is always detecting and scanning your outside world to see, is my social environment safe? So if you say hi to your post, oh, thanks so much. Great to see you. Have a good day. Or, oh, thank you so much for this latte. You know, how's it been for you so far today? Okay,

great. Well, look, I'll see you tomorrow morning, same time. Those things seem trivial, but there is hard scientific research that that makes you happy. It makes you more content. So for someone who feels that they're failing at happiness, like you do on this podcast with your guests when people are talking about failures, I would encourage them to reframe it and go, okay, well, maybe I haven't learned the skill of being happy yet. life never taught me this. Maybe my parents never taught me. You know, if you want to play a new sport, I don't know, let's say you wanted to take up martial arts and, you know, for the first time you just tried to do some in your house and you thought, you know, I've got no idea, you know, I'm failing at it. You'd sort of understand that, you know, I probably need to learn from someone the skill of martial arts, you know, whether it's judo or karate, whatever it is. And then you would understand, oh, now I can get better at it and work on it. And I think this is the big problem with happiness.

I don't feel I was ever taught it at school. I don't think my parents taught me this. I don't think in my 20-year career as a doctor, right, in medical school, I wasn't taught about this. And I should have been, because actually, and this is the widest sort of premise why, you know, myself, a GP, why would I write a book on happiness? The wider point for me is that it is intrinsically linked with our health. When you feel happier, you automatically make better lifestyle choices. That's pretty obvious, I guess, but it goes beyond that. There's really good research showing that happier people, they live longer, they are generally healthier. So it absolutely is relevant to my job as a doctor, yet I don't think

across society we're taught what I consider to be a very simple skill once you know how. I mean, you just sound like the greatest GP, I have to say. And that thing about micro connections with strangers is so interesting because when I read that chapter in your book, I was like, what kind of weirdo would talk to someone on the tube, which is one of the things that you advocate. And then I really sat down and thought about it. And I'm lucky enough, I've just come back from LA and LA is somewhere pre-pandemic. I went to quite often for a sort of Californian top-up. And part of the reason I love it there is because these sorts of interactions between strangers are utterly

normalised. And it is very straightforward to say to someone, how are you doing? Or how's your day going? And LA comes in for a lot of criticism for supposed superficiality, but I always find I'm a nicer person there and a happier person. And I come back and I feel like I do want to have those little interactions, as you say, with the barista who might make my tea. And it just really struck me that I need to introduce that a lot more into my life in London and run the risk. Well, but it is a risk, you know, and that's the thing that we can't avoid in life. We have to run a slight risk when we interact with others, right? Because it is unpredictable.

You don't know for sure how they're going to react. And, you know, yes, I tell that story. I think it's the start of one of the chapters in the book when, you know, I think one of my earliest experiences in London, because I grew up in the Northwest of England. And I think in my twenties, I was coming out of London. It was really, really exciting. And I'm on the tube and I'm like, Hey mate, how you doing? And like the guy just stared at me as if I was some sort of weirdo. And I was like, Oh, you don't do that here. Like I sort of, Oh, that's not the London way. You come on the tube and you keep your eyes to yourself. You don't interact with anyone. Having said that, it's not who we are. We are social animals. We are wired this way. And there's some really interesting research, Elizabeth, that I think is quite

relevant here. There's a scientist called Nick Epley in Chicago, and he's done some really interesting experiments in Chicago with these commuters. And he basically got this group of commuters, he spoke to them, and he split them up into two groups. One group were meant to just commute and just get on with their own business as usual. The other group had to strike up a conversation with another commuter. And interestingly enough, and they've replicated this even in London, actually, they've replicated this a couple of years ago, interestingly. And actually, the people who spoke to their neighbouring commuters were not only happier at the end of their journey, those positive emotions lasted throughout the entire day. And then what's even more incredible, which I think really speaks to your LA experience,

is that when he asked that group, what did they think? They all thought that their neighbouring commuters wouldn't want to be bothered. No, no, they don't want to be bothered. They want to get on with their own stuff. And actually, all the commuters who were, you know, in inverted commas, bothered, were feeling much better than they felt otherwise. I'm so passionate about this, especially over the last two years, right? Because I kind of feel that this social interaction is a key part of who we are. We think it's the kind of soft stuff of health and happiness, but it isn't. There's hard science behind it. And as you've just beautifully described, you feel when it happens in LA, you feel a happier person. You feel a better person. I'm going back to what we spoke about

at the start of this conversation. How powerful our environment because do you live in London Elizabeth I do yes yeah so you're back in London and I imagine that the normal and natural thing for you to do unless you put some effort into it is to just keep yourself to yourself, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I notice it almost immediately. I land and there's this sort of yoke of cynicism and fear. I feel that I sort of feel like I'm wrapping myself in an armor of separation. It's a really, really interesting cultural difference. And you have encouraged me through your book just to open up a bit more. So thank you for that. Because I'm a huge advocate for connection, but I realise that there are so many ways that you can bring connection into your daily interactions.

Yeah, Elizabeth, if someone's listening says, you know what, maybe that's for extroverts. Like I'm an introvert, that's not for me. Number one, the research doesn't support that at all. This is the same whether you are introverted or extroverted. And many of us will know during the last two years, even introverts, and I'm definitely an extrovert, but even introverts who thought, actually, I'm okay being by myself and not interacting with other people. A lot of them after a few weeks would be saying, man, you know, yes, I'm introverted, but I'd often go to the local coffee shop. I'd buy a coffee.

I wouldn't really talk to anyone, but I'd sit in the corner of a coffee shop. I just like the hub drum of humanity and other connections going on around me, but I wouldn't engage in it. And even introverts were missing that sort of level of human interaction. So I think it's something that really is a fundamental part of health, wellness, and happiness. And if anyone's listening and they think, you know, I feel a bit nervous, I would just encourage them, start small. Maybe when the postman comes around today, you just take a moment to look them in the eye and say, oh, thanks so much. You know, how's your day going?

Just start there. Because with practice, you can develop this skill. It gets easier. So you don't have to be like me and go and have a full on conversation with your barista, but you can start small and you will still get the benefits. I promise. Let's get onto failure. And you sent me three really insightful failures that I can't wait to talk about. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now.

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are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. It was clear to me that you'd really thought about them. Was it hard for you to come up with the three that you wanted to discuss? It really was, Elizabeth. You know, I found it actually quite stressful initially. I'm sorry. No, no, no, not at all.

Because stress, the way I see it, it's an internally created phenomenon. It's something I created in myself. You know, you were simply asking for information. The fact that I found it stressful, I think says a lot about me and my relationship to failure, because I was thinking, you know, and I sort of knew this, but it was a really powerful couple of days for me to actually think about this and think about, I guess, if I'm honest, the pressure of, oh man, I have to tell Elizabeth three failures. And I've realized over the last few years that I have tried my best to avoid situations where failure was even a possibility. And I've sort of unpicked, I think, where a lot of this

comes from. But for me, it was very difficult because I generally have done things in life that I can excel at, that I can become the best at. And fortunately, for much of my life, I've had my identity woven up in my levels of success, which, you know, yes, much of society would look at me and regard me as, in inverted commas, successful. But I think a lot of that drive has come at a huge internal cost. And I'm pleased to say over the past few years, I feel I'm letting go a lot of that. And I approach success and failure now, I think, in a very different way. Given that you have opened that particular can of philosophical words, let's start with your second failure which is your failure to accept losing and that struggle that you've had with defeat tell me why you think now your identity was so wrapped up in that

our childhoods massively influence who we are as adults I don't think I quite realized how much until maybe the last six or seven years when I really started to unpick various things in my own life. And the second failure about failing to be a good loser, it was always this thing in the family where mom, you know, whenever, I don't know, someone would pop around or a family member would come around, she'd say, oh, you know, when Rongo was little, you know, if he lost at Ludo, he'd just throw the board up in the air and just storm out of the room. It was just a bit of a joke. And I was like, oh yeah, you know, it's just embarrassing, mum. Or whatever, you know, you don't think about that as a kid or as a teenager.

But over the past years, I sort of have seen various times in my life where this has also been the same. I think in the book I write about being at Edinburgh University and sometimes on a Sunday afternoon, probably after some heavy nights on Fridays and Saturdays, me and some friends would go to the pool hall, a place called Diane's Pool Hall in Edinburgh. And I'm a pretty decent player. Now, if I was ever losing, I'd walk into the toilets. I'd look at myself in the mirror. I'd slap myself on my face and I'd say, come on, Chastity, you're a loser. Get your stuff together. Let's put it like that. And I thought that was normal. I thought that was a way of motivating myself and I'd go back and yes, I'd play better. And most times I would end up winning. But I've realized it wasn't winning that I wanted. I wanted to avoid losing. And it's a subtle difference, but it's a big

difference. I wouldn't feel gleeful that I'd won. I was just pleased that I hadn't lost. And I think, where does this come from? I think this comes from, maybe it's part of the immigrant mentality. I don't know. Mum and dad came from Calcutta in India over to the UK in the 1960s and the 1970s. And I remember as a kid, I was expected to be top of the glass. If I came back with 19 out of 20 in a test, it'd be like, why didn't you get 20 out of 20? If I got 99%, it would be like, okay, great, but what did you get wrong? How come it wasn't 100%? And to be fair, I love my parents. I'd like to think they brought me up really well. In their heads, they face so much discrimination, so many problems in a new foreign country that their way of having their children not face the same stuff

is to excel. So they would always say, you have to be better than everyone else. The truth is, they would say, you have to be better than your white counterparts if you want to get the job, because that was their experience of the world. And you might think, well, what's the big deal with that? You know, yes, I end up becoming a straight A student, right? And that all sounds wonderful, but at what cost? Because the problem is, is that I didn't feel good underneath. Often it wouldn't be because I wanted to succeed. It was because I don't feel as though I will be loved unless I get those top grades. And I don't know that's even fair to say that's my parents, right? Just to be

really clear, I am not having a go at them. I dearly love my parents. But I've also realized that the reality of the situation doesn't actually matter. It's all perceptions. They will have their perception of why they brought me up like that. I've spoken to mum about this recently. She said, we're wrong and you're very capable. I just wanted you to be the best that you could be. And I knew you were capable of that. And of course, as a parent, that makes complete sense. But I internalized it as, if I don't succeed, I'm not worthy. I'm not enough. I'm not enough if I get 95%. Only 100% will do. And I think that's led to a lot of, in inverted commas, success in my life, but it has come at a huge, huge cost. Rangan, just hearing you speak is like you're in my childhood head, because I felt

exactly the same. And similarly, it's absolutely not that my parents didn't love me. It's more that I had a self-esteem issue where my being good at exams became an integral part of my identity where exactly as you've expressed it the only way I could be guaranteed in my head affection and worth was if I continued to do well and I think it's why a lot of people myself included struggle in their 20s because for many of us it's the first time that we've left full time education. And there are no exams that you can sit to show that you're nailing being an adult. And so it's this very confusing time where suddenly I was like, well, what is my identity? Because I don't have objective proof that I'm doing well at something. What were your 20s like? Yeah, I think what you said is very, very astute there. What were my 20s like? Honestly, I went to medical school when I was 18. Like many students, for me, first time I'd left home, I was 240 miles away from where I grew up. Oh man. So freedom, excitement, booze. You're a first year university student and you're probably enjoying your freedom and trying to find out who you are.

But again, I certainly was not myself. I would try my very best to fit in with the world around me. I think that's normal to a certain degree, but I think this has been a big problem for me throughout my life. I don't feel until recently I kind of knew who I was. I feel I was so good at blending into whatever I felt I needed to around me that I actually forgot who I was. So uni was a lot of fun, if I'm honest. I am a very, very keen musician. I spent loads of time recording music, playing gigs with my bands. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, I'm very lucky. I'm a, maybe like yourself, academics came pretty easy to me.

So I didn't find it that difficult to actually get through the exams. I could doss around a bit and still do what I needed to do to get the grades. And so I probably did a little bit. Now, something did happen in my 20s, quite significant, which is when I was 20 or 21, my dad became sick, like really sick. Dad had never, ever been ill before. And essentially, he had some brand new fever. No one knew what was going on for three months. And it turned out that dad had this autoimmune disease called lupus. And then one night his kidneys went into complete failure. He was rushed to intensive care. I remember, you know, I was at uni, third year at uni. I was going to call out the blue from mum at about, I don't know, about 10.30 in the evening saying, hey,

look, dad's in intensive care. The doctors don't think he's going to make the night. Can you come back? I was like, even now, I don't think I've even thought about that in years. You know, I feel emotional even thinking about it. And I remember my flatmate, Steve, he said, listen, mate, I'll drive you home. So he drove me home through the night. I think I got back at about half two, three o'clock, went to the hospital, saw dad in intensive care. You know, dad ultimately ended up surviving, but the next 15 years were chained to a dialysis machine. He didn't get a kidney transplant. He had to retire. He was very sick. In fact, you talk about my twenties and since the age of 21, my dad's illness has hugely impacted my adult life.

And whilst my, without trivializing this, you know, when every summer my friends at uni are going off to Bali for six weeks and coming back, showing all these faces, I'm going back to help look after dad and help my mom and help my brother. And I don't think I would let myself feel frustrated. I think I felt it was my duty that I'm going to help my family care for my dad. And now that dad's not around, I don't regret any of it for a moment. But I think I did suppress how I felt underneath. I don't even feel I would allow myself to think that it's okay to be frustrated at any of that because I thought in some way that would be disrespectful. So I think I've been very, very good at suppressing deep emotions for much of my life.

And going back to junk happiness, the core happiness, what happens when you suppress these emotions? What happens when you're not being truly authentic? It's that you create a void in who you are. And in that void, you start to put in junk happiness habits, whether that be booze or, you know, I went through a phase of gambling loads. And it's interesting that I don't do any of that stuff anymore. I barely drink alcohol, maybe one glass of wine a year. I haven't tried to stop drinking. I haven't tried to stop gambling. tried to stop drinking. I haven't tried to stop gambling. What's happened is as I've healed myself, as I've closed that void, for me, I have no need for those behaviors anymore. I'm not criticizing anyone who gambles or drinks, just to be super clear. I have no moral kind of opinion on it

either way. I think people are entitled to whatever they want. But from my perspective, either way, I think people are entitled to whatever they want. But from my perspective, I realized that before I went to uni, I didn't really drink. I started drinking really fresh as week because everyone's doing that. And you feel that's what you have to do. And then that becomes your identity. I was the guy at the bar who'd get all the shots in and you're the life and soul, the party, fitting in with everyone. And bit by bit in my 30s, probably my late 30s, and having young kids was a big part of this, I realized I'm not entirely sure how much alcohol fits in my life anymore. It's not that I don't like it, but I'm not sure I like the way I feel. And the most interesting thing for me about all of these things, what I would call my junk

happiness habits, is I don't feel I've got many of them, certainly those ones left. And it's not because I've actively tried to stop them. It's because they no longer serve the role for me that they used to. And I think this is a key point, Elizabeth, as a doctor, right? I feel that we often say to our patients and even public health guidelines, I feel that we often say to our patients, and even public health guidelines, it's like, you need to eat like this. You need to do some moderate exercise for 130 to 150 minutes a week. Alcohol can be bad for you in excess. Can you please reduce how much you're consuming? And I think the reason it often doesn't work is because we haven't understood the root cause, right? Most people who are drinking to excess probably know that they're drinking to excess.

Being told more about cirrhosis or cancer, I'm not entirely sure is actually really gonna change the behaviour. It's helping someone understand what role is this playing? All behaviours serve a role. And if you wanna change it, you gotta understand the role it's playing.

Thank you for talking about that. I think so many people will deeply relate to what you just said. And they might also relate to your next failure, which is a big one. It is your failure as you perceive it to look after your son. Tell us why you chose this one and what you're referring to. When my son was six months old, he became seriously unwell. So let's go back to 2010. My wife and I, we have our first child, my son, Janem. And my wife is, for the first six months, breastfeeding him. And we decide, I think, that we want to go on

holiday. And so just after Christmas, we fly for a holiday to France. And I've got a few mates who live in a place called Chamonix in France, and one of them had a place there. So we got there, and we were just going to spend the week there, relaxing, hanging out with our friends when they arrive. And we were in this place by ourself. And normally, our bedroom was downstairs there. And I guess ordinarily, my wife would have put my son to bed in a cot downstairs, but she just instinctively felt that something wasn't right. So she kept him upstairs with her. And there's this big sort of open plan area. And I'm sort of in the kitchen, I think doing some washing up or something. And then she calls out to me and she says, Rangan, he stopped moving. And I rush

over and my son is, his arms are thrown back. He's not moving. Now he'd been very sort of coldy that day. He had a lot of phlegm. I thought maybe he was choking. So I took him in my hand. I turned him over. I tried to clear his airway. Nothing was happening. I sort of froze. And my wife said, look, Rangan, this is not working. Let's just get to the hospital now. So we had a hire car. We went into the car. I nearly killed us all because it had just snowed. And coming out of that sort of drive, I remember it so well, the car skidded. And I was just in a mad panic trying to get my son to the hospital. Anyway, thankfully nothing happened. We get him to the hospital, which thankfully was two minutes down the road. We went in and it was just one of those surreal experiences where you could tell the

doctors and the nurses looked really worried because convulsions are actually not that uncommon in babies, but normally they're associated with a fever, what we call a febrile convulsion. common in babies, but normally they're associated with a fever, what we call a febrile convulsion. But actually my son had no fever. And so there was like, why on earth has this young baby stopped moving? And they were putting lines in him. I had to hold his neck so they could put a line in his neck, which was just like, oh my God, what is going on here? And then after half an hour, they said, we need to take him to the main hospital down the valley. I was like, okay. So my wife went in this ambulance with him. I tried to follow afterwards in our car and essentially he ends up in this bigger hospital. After a few hours, I say, look, we know why he's had a convulsion. He's got very low levels of calcium in his body. I was like,

okay, well, why? And so we don't know, we're running more tests to find out. And again, a few hours later they came in and they said, yeah,'t know. We're running more tests to find out. And again, a few hours later, they came in and they said, yeah, we know what's happened. He basically has hardly any vitamin D in his body. He's got a vitamin D deficiency, and that's why his calcium has dropped. So essentially, what happened? Because that night, we weren't sure if he was going to make it. You know, there was real concern in the hospital.

He had two lumbar punctures. Oh, my goodness. And it was incredibly traumatic. But the way I interpreted that was, I've let my son down. Because actually, what had happened here is that a vitamin D deficiency is fully preventable. And here's the other thing, Elizabeth. A few months, maybe two months prior to that, I had started to become aware of vitamin D deficiencies in my own patient population. And I was reading up a lot. And I thought, you know, I wonder if my son should be on this. And so I sent my wife the protocol we used in my practice. And I said, can you just go and see the GP? Because we're told as doctors, we shouldn't be making decisions for our own

family members. It's always good practice to have someone else make that decision. And so I said, can you go and see the doctor and just show them this and just ask them, should Janan be on vitamin D? And she went in and the doctor basically sort of laughed her out and said, look, you could have just printed this thing off on wood. There's absolutely no need for him to do anything. This was probably 10 days before the actual convulsion happens. And I'm not blaming that doctor. I'm really not. I'm just saying that in my head, I had sort of got an inkling that he probably should be, but I didn't act on it. I probably didn't realize the urgency. 10 days later, the guy's in a foreign hospital, really sick.

And so my perfectionist tendencies, my expectation of myself that everything will be 100%, I interpreted that as, Rangan, you have let your son down. You have not protected him. You have not made sure everything was right for him. And so what did that lead to? I made myself a vow whilst he was in hospital that I was going to get my son back to full health as if this had never happened. Because here's the thing, Elizabeth, what modern medicine's great at is acute problems. So they gave him a calcium infusion, they gave him a vitamin D injection, and a few days later said, you can take him home. And I said, yeah, but what

about the fact that he's probably not had vitamin D in his body for the last six months? What about its effects on the immune system? Could this be why he's got such bad eczema? And they said, well, look, they don't know about that, but look, he's fine now. I was like, well, that's not good enough for me. And so I became obsessed. I would read studies on vitamin D for two, three hours a day. I would study nutrition. I would literally research as much as I could with the single goal being, I'm going to get him back to full health as if this had never had happened. And look, he's an 11-year-old boy now. He is happy. He's healthy. He's really, really well. And that drive to get him better, what did it lead to? There's a pro and a con to this story.

The pro is I learned loads that has informed and really changed my entire career. A lot of what I do now, whether it's my books or my podcast or my TV shows or whatever, I don't think any of them would have happened had Janem not got sick. But at the same time, that drive, that came from a place of guilt. I felt I'd let him down. And not only is that not healthy, but that affected my ability to be a good parent because he doesn't need a dad who feels guilty about something that I can now recognize was not my fault. I can now recognize it. I still find it hard to say that because I do have high expectations of myself. So I could talk more about that, but does that give you a kind of overview of that story? It absolutely does and it strikes me as

you're talking first of all I'm so sorry you had to go through that because the trauma must be with you still. I'm secondly so happy that Janem is fit and healthy at 11 years old but it's interesting given what you said earlier about alignment because that idea of being in alignment with who you really are is thrown out of whack if you then think I wrong and have the power or not to protect everyone and everything yeah and so there's an element of even though that comes from such a good place and an understandable place that you're fundamentally misaligned there. Yeah, I think I was. I think you've nailed it. I didn't realise this at the time. I frankly didn't really think much about much more than what do I need to do? How do I fix this? How do I repair this? How do I optimise

every component of his life and his lifestyle to correct what I messed up at. That was my underlying energy. And I have let go of that. It's not been easy, right? I've let go of much of that. I'd like to think I'm a decent parent, but I feel I've become a better parent to my son over the past few years as I've let go of that guilt. And it really has changed, I think, the way I parent. Here's the other thing, which has really helped me on my personal growth is when you have children, certainly this has been my experience, Elizabeth, having children for me has made me so much more aware of these little patterns because I don't want to put these patterns onto my children.

I don't want them to pick them up from me. And then when they're 40, trying to figure out all this stuff and actually have to undo it, I'd rather they are compassionate to themselves in a way that I haven't been much in my life. And I'd say this really funny thing happened a few months ago. We've got a little snooker table in our house, like a little pool table, and we enjoy playing together. And we talk a lot as a family about self-compassion and about, we should talk to ourselves as kindly as we talk to lot as a family about self-compassion and about we should talk to ourselves as kindly as we talk to anyone else and I fell into something that I don't usually fall into I think I missed a shot I can't remember what I said it wouldn't be the language that I used to say to myself but I probably said something like oh man I can't believe you did that or something like that

and Janem said daddy don't talk to yourself like that. That's not very kind, is it? Janem! I love that. It was so good, Elizabeth, because A, it helped catch me. He wasn't trying to catch me out or anything. It helped me almost like a mirror to my own behavior and go, yeah, okay, okay, wrong. He's right, actually.

But it also made me really proud. I thought, oh, this is so awesome. I really hope he is really developing this strong awareness of self-compassion and the fact that he can even see it in his father. I certainly hope, touch wood, that this stands him in good stead for the rest of his life. Let's put it like that. That's beautiful. Can I just talk for a bit about your wife? Because she sounds amazing. My favourite facts are that you met and you proposed within three months and you were married within eight months. And there was an interview that I read with the two of you recently, which made me laugh because she said that one of your most annoying habits is that

you've got an exercise step in the kitchen so that you can take little mini bits of exercise here and there. She was like, it's really annoying. So I just really wanted to talk about her actually. And you've talked a lot about your parenting and how you responded to that incredibly traumatic incident. How did she respond over the years? And could she see what you were trying to do? And how did she handle that? and how did she handle that? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first

national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill

of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision-making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression.

It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviors into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative.

Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast.

But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. You've certainly done your research. So first of all, yes, my wife is amazing. I completely agree. I mean, going back to the start, the way you've just articulated it, I had been in a long-term relationship in my early 20s. Then I was single for a few years and it was a whirlwind romance with her because at the time I was a huge football fan and I used to go and watch Liverpool play regularly and I'd follow them around Europe and I'd go to Champions League finals. And I was at my mate's house in 2007. And we had been to the 2005 final in Istanbul together. And we were about to take a flight at 1am to go to the 2007 final. We were

having a couple of beers, watching a rerun of the match. And I got a phone call from a friend of mine who I hadn't spoken to in about six months. And she said, hey, Rona, listen, are you still single? I said, well, kind of. Why? And she goes, oh, you know, I know someone who has been single for about a year. I think you guys are getting on really, really well. She's gorgeous. She's a barrister in London, but she's actually up in Manchester this weekend if you fancy meeting her. I said, look, hey, listen, I'm a bit tied up at the moment. You know, I'm about to fly to Athens for two days, but yeah, I'd love to meet her. That sounds great. Can I give you a call when I get back? Anyway, so come back, arranged to meet her on the Saturday. And again, this is, I can't believe I'm even saying this, but I think on the Friday night, at the time I was recording a lot of my

own music and I had a gig in Manchester. I was playing some of my solo tracks and the gig went on late. I didn't get home till about 3.30 in the morning. And I was knackered on the Saturday. I remember texting her saying, hey, listen, do you mind if we postpone to tomorrow? Anyway, it's a bank holiday weekend. So it ended up not being a problem. And we went out for dinner, blind dates for both of us. First time we had ever, ever been on a blind date. And it went really well. But I thought, well, how's this going to work? I live in Manchester. She lives in London. I remember this so well, like that was a Sunday. And on the Wednesday night, I had tickets for Dave Matthews Band at Wembley Arena. I had four tickets and we had a spare. So I remember on the Monday night, I phoned her and said, hey, listen, I'm going to be in London

on Wednesday. I've got a spare ticket, a couple of my mates coming, and she comes to the concert. And we just have. Prior to that, I think we were busy most weekends. I would have told you I'm so busy, I don't have time for a relationship. But somehow, we made time every single weekend to be free. It was a complete whirlwind romance. Three months later, I decided to propose. Thankfully, she said yes. And eight months after meeting, we got married and we'd both been in long-term relationships before. So it was a complete whirlwind. And loads of my mates who were engaged to be married said, wait a minute, mate, you've met someone, you propose and you're

getting married before we've even set our wedding dates. So I was getting a lot of state from them, but we're very happily married. But I would say the first year of marriage was pretty challenging for many reasons, because I think that whirlwind romance, I think, meant that a lot of the stuff that maybe people go through before they get married wasn't gone through. It was all euphoria and passion and life's great when we're together. And then the cold, hard reality of being married day in day out would come about but I would also say that culturally I think because we were married I think that that's why we stayed together we often joke about this we think if we were just dating in that first year of marriage we both think we would have split up and we both think that because we had taken this commitment that to us, certainly

at that time felt like, no, we're not going to just walk away from this. And again, I always keen to say this, I'm not criticizing anyone who does. I think there's many situations where it is the right thing to do to walk away from something. But for us, I think those hard times that we've gone through have just made us closer and closer. So that's the kind of story of this meeting. And you were asking me how the whole genuine experience affected her. Yes. It's quite hard because I'm not a vid, so I would be speculating certain elements of this, but I know it's been very, very, probably one of the most impactful things on our entire family life, on our entire marriage, because that was two years or so, two and a half years after we'd met. And that sort of big incident, I think, I think what was hard

for her was, A, as a mother, her baby was really unwell. And I'm recognising more and more now that there is a difference between the maternal child bond and the paternal one. Not better or worse, just different. I really feel I have an understanding of that in a way that I never used to. And I think I will never know that feeling of growing a child inside my body like another human being. I was chatting to my wife about this a couple of nights ago and I think I just will never know what that feels like. And I can't imagine that doesn't solidify the maternal bond in a very powerful way. You know, I feel I'm very close to my children, but I think it's different. So I think there was that as a mother that was really hard for her. I think it was also my response was probably very hard for her because

I'm quite driven. And, you know, Elizabeth, you actually made me think that I should probably talk a bit about this. So thank you. You thank you. I think I'll maybe talk to you later about this because I'm actually genuinely interested now. What was it like for her dealing with a child who wasn't very well, but also having this husband who feels that they can make everything okay. So for me, it was a simple like, okay, right. what do I need to do? I'm going to find out what I need to do, and then I'm going to do it. Simple. I would imagine that was quite challenging for her. But she's a lot more compassionate to herself than me. Like she never, ever thought it was my fault, ever. She didn't even give me a remote impression that, hey,

you know, you've gone to one of Europe's most prestigious medical schools, you've got an immunology degree, you're qualified as a specialist and as a GP. How come you didn't know about this? Not remotely once. So this was all self-imposed stress for myself. She was very kind, very supportive. Have I answered your question, Elizabeth? You have answered it. And I would love you to go and have that conversation and just tell me what happens. You don't have to, but you have answered it. And I think you show a great deal of insight about your own behavior and a great deal of compassion towards other people, which is classic Rangan Chatterjee, if I might say so. So thank you very, very much for sharing that with us, because I understand that it must be deeply emotional territory to cover again and I really appreciate it. Let's move on to your third and final failure which is your failure to be yourself and you wrote to me that you would describe yourself as a people pleaser in recovery

again hard relate so can you give us an example of how in the depths of your people pleasing that might manifest itself? Yeah, I mean, where to start? There are so many possible examples. But I guess the one that pops up to mind at the moment is something that in many ways might come across as quite trivial, but I don't think it is. So let's say at uni, we'd be talking about, you know, where are we going tonight? Which restaurant or, you know, not a restaurant. I don't think we went to restaurants at university. I think which bar we're going to see. Which kebab shop. Yeah, exactly. I think for me, it's like, oh no, I don't mind. It's cool. Whatever,

whatever you guys decide. Right. And again, in the moment, this was me for years. I actually thought that was an endearing quality. I thought this is a good thing. I'm not being onerous on anyone. I'm not sort of making demands of what I want. It's like, well, you guys decide. Oh, you know what? Yeah, that's cool. The amount of times we'd end up somewhere, and even as a working adult afterwards, like at a restaurant, the amount of times I'd end up somewhere that I didn't really like, but I wouldn't say what I really wanted because I want it to be liked by everyone around me. I think that is just a classic example of the sorts of behavior I would do. What about just when we were doing the sound check just before we started recording? I don't know if this is people pleasing, but it probably is.

I said, hey, Elizabeth, my name is actually pronounced Rangan. I know it's spelt Rangan. You may already know that. You may not. But if you don't, I'm just going to let you know. And for me, that was a big thing because until about a year and a half ago, I couldn't do that. I could not do that. I've had my name mispronounced my entire life. Rangan, Ranjan, Ranji, whatever. I have heard everything. And for me, I would always go, oh yeah, that's cool. Yeah, no worries. No worries. You know, I never stood up. I don't have a problem if someone gets it wrong, but now what I will do is I will say, hey, listen, by the way, this is how my name is pronounced. And I was too insecure before to say something as simple as your freaking identity. Exactly. Your actual name and

everything that that represents. Yeah. I'm 44 now. I would honestly say until maybe 41 or 42, I wouldn't have had the courage to do that. Wow. And again, this comes from a desire to not be a pain to anyone. I'm going to fit in. I'm going to do what everyone else wants. I'm not going to be a hindrance. And again, I think this has been incredibly toxic. And I remember, I know you've had the holistic psychologist, Nicole, on How to Fail Before, and I really love her Instagram post. And I remember one about people-pleasing, and I remember her saying something like, in many ways, you're actually being manipulative when you're a people pleaser. You are trying to manipulate other people's opinion of you. And that was one of those posts that I reread over

and over again, because it was, as Nicole always says, it's very, very kind the way in which she said it. She's not having to go at anyone for it but I thought yeah you are actually you're trying to present a view of who you are to them which isn't you and if we talk about alignment how unaligned is that right the person who you are inside and the person you are being is completely separate but I don't know about you because I also was an inveterate people pleaser. And it is a very, very hard habit to break. And similarly, when someone asked me to go for lunch or what I wanted for dinner, first of all, I didn't proffer an opinion because I wanted them to be happy. And then after doing that for so many years, I lost connection with my own desires. And so I genuinely wouldn't know what I wanted. And so then it's not just stopping being a people pleaser,

it's sort of rediscovering who you really are. And I don't know if you found this, Rangam, but I'm 43. So we're basically the same age. I feel that doing the podcast has helped me so enormously. Because when you do a podcast, or at least my experience has been, Because when you do a podcast, or at least my experience has been, I had no expectation for how to fail. And so I really just was myself. And the extraordinary thing was, it felt like listeners responded to that and wanted more of it. And I feel that I am fully aligned. The self that you hear right now is also who I am when I'm on the sofa watching The Real Housewives. And the podcast has really helped me that way. Has that been your experience?

Yeah, 100%. Pretty much word for word, I would say. I remember my first sort of excursion into the public limelight, as it were, was in 2015 when I got my own series on BBC One called Doctor in the House when I'd go and live alongside families who'd been ill for years and had seen GPs and specialists and still were no better. And I'd go in and I'd help them make tweaks to various areas of their lifestyle and was able to show that a whole variety of different conditions, sort of depression, panic attacks, fibromyalgia, anxiety, type 2 diabetes, you know, I could help them all either fully reverse or get significantly better in six weeks on television.

It was a really wonderful experience to be able to show that many people what is possible by making small changes. And I remember at the time I was doing a lot of media and lots of interviews, and I think this is certainly very common for medics. We are very keen on how other people perceive us. I'm not saying this doesn't happen in non-medics, but I certainly know for medics, this is a big thing. Why is that? Is it a bedside manner thing? Why do you think it is? I think there's a couple of reasons. One is it's a very conformist profession. there's a lot of expectation on how you should behave, act, speak. A lot of credence is given to what your peers think of you. I think that's one component to it. And I think that's incredibly problematic, actually. I also think that actually many people that go into

medicine don't go in to it because they want to, but they go into it because they think they should. And therefore their whole identity becomes wrapped up in being a doctor because a doctor is a respectable profession and it's a secure profession and you are seen a certain way by the community. And so I think this all leads to many of us having a, I say this with compassion, but potentially a fragile sense of who we are because a lot of our identity is wrapped up in being a doctor, which therefore means that if anything challenges that, you start to lose your sense of self. And I think that was certainly some of that held true for me. And I remember when I started the podcast, which is I think it was January 2018,

after my first book, The Four-Peer Plan, had come out, I started a podcast. I had no idea, I did my first six interviews. I didn't know what the name would be of the show. I didn't have a logo or anything. And I thought, oh, I'm just going to put them out there and see what happens. And I was like, oh, people start listing. And then before you know it, you've, like you, you end up having this huge show that we've just passed 50 million downloads, which is just a ridiculous number. But what's been interesting for me, Elizabeth, is this. I realise, like you, I have some very long conversations. Sometimes I go to 90 minutes or two hours. And I quickly realise, is that wrong? And you can't perform at this each week. You can't curate an image of who you are week in, week out, week after week, month after month, year after year. It's too exhausting. I'm not saying I would ever intentionally do that,

but I learned very quickly that actually just be yourself. Just be yourself. Open up, share things that have not gone well in your life, as well as things that have gone well. And as you just said, those are the episodes that really strike a chord with people that seem to get shared and you get so much wonderful feedback from. And I would go as far as to saying that having my own podcast has changed my own life for the better, for the reasons I've already explained. But also because of this reason, already explained, but also because of this reason. I will sometimes sit across a desk with my guest for 90 minutes, sometimes two hours, and none of us will have looked at our phone. None of us will have been distracted by email. We will have had to be fully mindful and present for that entire

interaction. And I've often said this before, but I just think how many times do I do that off the mic? When was the last time I sat down with a friend or even my wife for two hours and none of us were distracted once? I don't think it's happened in a long, long time. So I feel that the podcast helps me practice mindfulness, practice presence, practice actively listening, communicating better better which I think then transfers to every other aspect of my non-podcast life as well so true I mean podcasting it's just going to save us all it's so true and there is a chapter in your book in which you talk about listening and there are some rules for listening that you list. And I thought they were so good. And the one that particularly stuck with me, which I never

really articulated myself, was to have no attachment to the outcome of the conversation. I thought that was so wise, because that means that you have to be fully present in what someone is saying. And so often, if, for instance, I were to present a highly produced radio program, I know it would be fully scripted. And when it's fully scripted, it means that you can't have that flexibility of responding to an interesting tangent that might come up. And it's absolutely that thing of being too attached to the outcome. It's like you want to control something and shape it. And actually the conversations and the interactions

that are most full of integrity and authenticity are ones where we're allowed to be ourselves and to follow those interesting little pathways. So I thought that that was a really profound thing and I'm going to write it out and laminate it and stick it on my wall. I mean, yeah, I mean, thank you for bringing that section up because do you know when I really got the power of listening? It was in my first few weeks as a GP because I'd done a lot of specialist training before that I was going to be a kidney specialist.

I moved to general practice and I'd done my training. And I remember sitting in and this lady came in, this young lady, probably around 20 or so. And she was really struggling with her moods. She was low. She was struggling with motivation. She was waking up early in the morning. She was quite indifferent to life. And I remember chatting to her. I remember thinking, well, look, my guidelines here are telling me that she has depression. She had enough of the symptom criteria to fit depression as a diagnosis. And there's a long, long waiting list for counselling and psychotherapy at the time. I think it's still the same now, but certainly then it was probably nine months to 12 months in the practice I worked at. And my guidelines were pointing me towards prescribing

an antidepressant for her. I just thought something doesn't feel right here. Look, she's sort of talking to me about her emotions. I don't quite fully understand what's going on, but I just don't feel like I can prescribe an antidepressant here. I need to understand what's going on. And I probably spent about 25 minutes with her, even though there was people waiting outside. And I remember at the end of it saying, hey, listen, look, I'd really love to understand this even more, but I need a bit more time with you. Are you free tomorrow after my morning surgery where I can probably sit with you for half an hour or so and really go a bit deeper into this? She goes, yeah, I am. So she comes back the next day and we talk more and I listen. I don't offer solutions. I just attentively listen.

listen. I don't offer solutions. I just attentively listen. And we did this probably week on week for four to six weeks. And I'm not kidding you, six weeks later, she's like a different person. Like it's almost as she has given therapy to herself. She has figured out that she had broken up with her boyfriend a few months prior to that. She had realized how many things that were going on in her life. She was staying up too late, binge watching sets she was drinking too much she realized that she basically started to unpick her whole life and all I did was provide her a safe space I was a sounding board for her because she didn't have that in her life and I remember seven weeks later, and I saw that patient on and off for maybe two or three years, and she was thriving. She never needed medication. And she basically was super, super happy and content with her life. And I thought, well, I have done nothing for her

apart from actively listen to her. And I realized there is value in being able to listen to someone. There really is. And yes, I do that as a doctor, but we can all do that. We can all be that miracle for somebody else. You know, who can we listen non-judgmentally with in our lives? Who needs us? And we can provide that safe space. And what you said about not being attached to the outcome, you know, so often we are attached to the outcome or we're not really listening. We're waiting so we can say something in response. All I do on my podcast, Elizabeth, is I think it's like my GP consultations, but instead of it being 10 minutes, it's two hours. I genuinely feel I've been podcasting my entire adult life because what I've been doing as a doctor is having conversations with people, allowing them to feel seen, allowing them to feel heard. And that's all I kind of do. And I'm so passionate about this is how we change humanity.

This is how we change the world. This is how we develop a kinder, more compassionate society. We have to get good at listening. And again, I've broken down what I think are 10 really simple rules in the book for it they're not difficult you just need to be aware of them and also the adjacent effect of active listening is that you're not having to perform so you're not having to people please in that scenario literally what you're doing is giving someone time and space, as you say, a non-judgmental action that can have these extraordinary results. And I just think that's such a good note to end on, the miraculous power of listening. And I can't thank you enough for coming on my podcast and allowing me to listen

to all of your wisdom and insight. How has it been for you, Rangan? It's been incredible. First of all, I think you are a brilliant listener. I think you are a fabulous podcast host. And you really pick up on sort of little things, little nuance and stuff. You know, when I say that with the utmost respect as a fellow podcaster, it's been a real pleasure and you've made me reflect on certain things in my life, things I've reflected on before, but maybe not visited for a little while now. You've, I think, gently inspired me to revisit certain elements of my life. And you've also shed a light

on some new areas for me, i.e. what was it like for my wife after Jane was ill? I can only thank you for that. It's been really fun, a lot for me to think about afterwards, like all the best conversations are. And can I just say thank you for inviting me. And if I can just at the end, just add that that question you asked me earlier on about what about people who feel they're failing at happiness? But I haven't been able to shake that in my head. I think it's just been there whirring around. I just want to say to people that no matter who you are, no matter whether you feel overwhelmed and close to burnout at the moment, or whether you feel life is okay, but you feel you could be getting more out of it,

you can work on your happiness. It is not as hard as you think. There are simple, actionable things that you can do that make a huge difference. You know, we've just mentioned active listening. You don't need to buy anything for that. You don't need to devote huge amounts of time and energy. You can just pick up a couple of things and you can start applying it in your own life. Or you could say hi to the postman each day, right? And just see how you feel. So yeah, I don't mean to go on about it, but I'm so passionate that we can all feel happier than we currently do once we've been taught the skill of how to do it. feel happier than we currently do once we've been taught the skill of how to do it. Rangan Chatterjee, reformed people pleaser, progressive doctor, active listener. You are a very lovely man. Thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail.

Really hope you enjoyed my conversation with Elizabeth on her podcast. And if you get a moment, do let both of us know what you thought on social media. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. Always remember, you are the architects of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it. Because when you feel better, you live more.