Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #30 Mindfulness Instead of Medication with Danny Penman

Episode Date: October 2, 2018

“Mindfulness has been proven to be at least as good as antidepressants”   What is mindfulness? And what really are the benefits? Author and expert in mindfulness and meditation, Dr Danny Penman explains it all.  We discuss how numerous clinical trials have proven that mindfulness is as good as medication for depression and in some cases, even better.  We also talk about how effective mindfulness breathing can be for pain control and many other conditions. Danny explains how rather than consuming time, practising meditation or mindfulness actually frees up more time. Stress can permeate every aspect of our lives and every organ in our bodies.  Setting aside just 10-20 minutes a day and focusing on our breathing can have a really profound long-term effect on our bodies and minds.   For those of you who aren’t sure where to start – Danny talks us through a simple breathing mindfulness exercise.  Finally, he gives some brilliant tips on how we can incorporate mindfulness into our everyday lives.  I hope that this helps you in your lives and that you enjoy listening. Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/danny Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You have to just build moments into the day. First of all, you have to understand it's very, very effective. You know, if you meditate or practice mindfulness, it liberates more time than it consumes. Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well

as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier, because when we feel better, we live more. Hello and welcome to another episode of my Feel Better Live More podcast. This is the third show in the second season of this podcast. The first two episodes in this season have proved to be two of my most popular podcasts to date. So if you've not heard them yet, do check them out. The first one was How to Find Your Purpose with Rich Roll.

And the second one was How to Focus on What You Need to eat rather than what you should avoid with Amelia Freer. Now, today's conversation is with Dr. Danny Penman. Danny is an expert in mindfulness, in meditation, and is the author of multiple best-selling books. Now, before we get on to today's conversation, I'm pleased to announce an ongoing partnership with Athletic Greens, who are sponsoring today's show. I know from the feedback that I get on social media, as well as on email, that many of you are really enjoying the weekly podcast and look forward to each new episode. Now, in order to support the time and expense it takes to put these podcasts on, I've taken on a sponsor whose vision is very well aligned with

my own, to help people feel better so that they can get more out of life. Now, as you know, I believe that the right nutrition is an essential ingredient to having a healthy and happy life. Now, there's no question that I prefer people to get their nutrition from eating food, but these days, for some of us, that can be a little bit challenging. You might be busy, on the go, rushing around, and even with the best intentions, on some days it can be a little bit tricky to cook a wholesome, nutritious meal. If you feel that this might apply to you and you want to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs,

I can highly recommend Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens is a super tasty whole food greens powder that you can take each morning. And unlike most green supplements that I've tried in the past, it tastes fantastic. In fact, my kids absolutely love it. I love the company ethos. And I have to say that it is unquestionably one of the most nutrient dense whole food supplements that I have come across. For listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, that's L-I-V-E-M-O-R-E, you will be able to access a special offer where you will get a free travel pack with 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth about £70 or so, with your first order. That's athleticgreens.com forward slash livemore, L-I-V-E-M-O-R-E. Now, on to today's conversation. Danny, thank you for joining me here on the Feel Better Live More podcast.

That's fine. I could talk forever and a day about mindfulness. Well, what's there can I? So let's see if we can keep this relatively short, although I do like the long conversations. But Danny, you've got a fascinating story, haven't you, in terms of how you got into mindfulness? Yes, I had a very dramatic introduction about 12 years ago now. I used to be a very keen paraglider pilot. If it was a good day for flying, you'd find me somewhere over southern England just soaring with the birds. I absolutely loved paragliding. And one day I was flying over the edge of the Cotswolds and my canopy collapsed and I plunged head over heels into the hillside below. And luckily I landed on my feet. But unluckily, the lower half of my right leg

was driven through the knee and into the thigh. It was the tibial plateau, which is basically the lower part of the knee joint, was split apart into five big pieces and the shin was completely shattered. Yeah, this was a really horrific injury. I was lying there on the hillside, completely stunned. I mean, I was totally unable to breathe. And, you know, for a moment I thought, well, you know, is this it? But then I suddenly, you know, kind of came fully conscious again. And I was hit with the most unimaginable pain. I mean, it was absolutely horrific. And I, obviously, I had no painkillers with me at all. And I suddenly remembered a very, very simple breathing meditation I'd learned in sixth form. And we were taught lots of techniques for stress relief as one of our A-level courses.

And one of these things was this very simple breathing meditation. So in absolute desperation, I decided to use this as a form of pain control. I'd heard somewhere along the line, I'd heard that meditation could be a way of controlling and coping with pain. So I just put it into practice. I just began to focus on the sensations of breathing as the air flowed in and out of my body. And much to my surprise, it began to work. It didn't get rid of the pain completely. It was almost as if there was like a thin sheet of glass or mist between me and the pain. But it was definitely, you know, it was really beginning to diminish. And it allowed me to do all the things that you need to do in this situation, which is, you know, call for an ambulance,

check your body for even more significant injuries, that kind of thing. even more significant injuries, that kind of thing. Eventually I was taken to hospital. I spent a month in hospital whilst they reconstructed my leg. I had what's known as a tailor spatial frame fitted to the leg. And essentially this is a whole series of concentric rings of metal and lots of wires and bolts that go through one side of your leg through a fragment of bone and out the other side. And it allows the surgeon to kind of move the bones around inside so they all line up and can heal effectively. So I was in hospital for a month and I had this device on my leg for five months.

And I began to use this meditation more and more for just coping with the immense stress I was under, the anxiety, the considerable unhappiness I was feeling. And I found it was remarkably effective for all of those things. And I could feel myself healing on a day-to-day basis. I could cope with the amount of pain. I reduced my painkiller intake by two-thirds. Two-thirds? I reduced my painkiller intake by two thirds. Two thirds? Two thirds, yeah. I got down to just using paracetamol in the day and codomol, is it? And you attribute that to your breathing meditation? Yeah, I do. It was, you know, there was several other people,

well, there was about 20 other people who were at various stages of going through this process of having their limbs reconstructed in the hospital I was in. And yeah, I mean, I, you know, I was healing a remarkable rate and this was down, you know, I put it almost exclusively down to the meditation, but I did other things as well. Don't me wrong physiotherapy i made sure i was doing i think i was doing about three hours a day um really cleaned up my diet a lot um you know so i was i went to a completely whole food diet you know i mean they all helped they all helped i mean yeah you know obviously we've not spoken before danny i mean we're meeting for the first time

today even though I have actually, the first book I came across with you, which was Mindfulness, a Practical Guide to Finding Peace in a Frantic World, which I think, was it 2010 it came out? 2011. 2011. It's been out for a few years now, but it's in a lot of,

I see it in my medical work. I see it in a lot of differing establishments. in my medical work yeah i see in a lot of differing establishments it's quite interesting to me how that book really has penetrated into the medical profession but i think what's striking for me is that you know you had this paragliding accident and in that moment of excruciating pain and probably anxiety and your body being in fight or flight, you used a breathing meditation. Now, two questions really. One is, where did you learn that breathing meditation? And secondly, what was it? Firstly, I learned it in sixth form as part of a stress reduction course. At school?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's extraordinary looking back. I mean, this was about 1983, 1985. It was a comprehensive school in a suburb of Liverpool. This was not some kind of hippie commune type school at all. It was just an ordinary school. Was that unusual?

type school at all it was just a you know an ordinary school but it was that unusual because to me hearing that that blows my mind that in 1983 yeah um you were actually learning stress reduction and meditation at school yeah well it was it came down to i think one teacher he um he'd come back from india at some point in the past. He was our English teacher. And it was part of a general studies course where they were teaching us all kinds of life skills as well as kind of general knowledge, that kind of thing. And they obviously decided that the world was becoming a stressful place, more stressful place, and they needed to kind of build resilience in their in their pupils so wow back in 1983 they thought the world was becoming a more stressful place yeah which is super striking for me because my perception at the moment is that particularly the last 10 or 15 15 years with technology and how that's exploded yeah you know in my head i'm thinking that's that's really ramped up the stress

a lot but even back then they were talking about stress going up. Yeah. I mean, you know, the world has always been a stressful place. There is nothing more stressful than wondering if you're going to get any food tomorrow, whether your family is going to survive, whether there's going to be another war with a tribe over the other side of the hill. Stress has always been with us. It's part of the human condition. You know, these techniques are at least two and a half thousand years old. You know, mindfulness meditation is at least two and a half thousand years old. It was developed, you know, partly for

spiritual reasons, but also it was, you know, people found it very useful to cope with stress and anxiety and just to have a more balanced view of the world. Yeah. So Danny, you learnt it in sixth form. Now I'm intrigued, you know, in sixth form, you probably are, you know, 16, 17, maybe 18, you know, something like that. What did you think at the time? Did you think, you know, what is all this about? You know, is this really going to help or did it resonate with you immediately? It did resonate with me. In fact, over the years, whenever life became more difficult during exams, difficult work situations, that kind of thing, I would actually go away and do meditation.

I subsequently learned it was called mindfulness meditation, but I just knew it as meditation. And typically what would happen is I'd reach some kind of acute stress point. And I would just meditate for 20 minutes a day, maybe 30 minutes. And that would go on for a week or two, the stress would dissipate. And gradually, I just go back to normal life. And then maybe another year later, or two years later gradually I'd just go back to normal life. And then maybe another year later or two years later, I'd pick up meditation again for the same reasons. Now, what was the meditation that you did in that emergency situation when you're in excruciating pain and you're scared? Is that something you were able to describe?

you're scared. Is that something you're able to describe? Yeah. I mean, it is the most simple of all mindfulness meditations, which is where you close your eyes, you focus on the sensations of breathing. So as the air flows into your lungs and then out, and you are feeling the way your shoulders rise and fall, the way your chest rises and falls, the way your stomach moves in and out. So you're really getting in touch with your body and the sensations of breathing. And that is incredibly powerful, especially for stress relief and anxiety relief, because what it does, it has a direct influence on the body's parasympathetic nervous system. That's the calming aspect of the nervous system. So just breathing deep in and out, gradually slowing down, has this tremendously soothing effect on the body

yeah it really does um i've been sort of writing recently for for a new book on stress called the stress solution and um i i remember sort of sitting there trying to think how can i articulate this in a in a in a simple way that people get it and And I know, you know, breathing is really information, isn't it? It's information for your brain that everything is okay. Yeah, yes. So in some ways our brain, if we're feeling stressed, can send messages to our body that we're under attack and that we're stressed.

But we can also almost, I wouldn't like to use the word hack, but we can almost, I guess I am using that word, we can hack it by focusing on our breathing and breathing deeply and slowly. We can send our brain messages that everything's okay. Yeah, you know, if you're still breathing, there's more right with you than wrong with you. It's as simple as that, you know? Yeah.

So that's what you focus on in that moment. That helped you to become more alert so you could think rationally. Yeah. What do I need to do? Yeah. So I imagine that your, your emotional brain, your amygdala, which was probably going, you know, taking center stage in your brain at that time. Yeah. You were able to calm it down so that your rational brain could yeah okay i need to do this i need to do that yeah um but one thing i'd love to you know you've written a few books now on on mindfulness yeah um you mentioned at the start a breathing meditation then you mentioned meditation then you mentioned mindfulness meditation and i think there is a bit of confusion out there. So could you clarify what they all mean? Yes.

Mindfulness is quite simply full conscious awareness of whatever is going on around you and inside you. So, you know, it's all of the thoughts and feelings and emotions that are flowing through your mind and your body. And it's also being aware of whatever is going on around you. You know, it could be like the noise that's around you or beautiful scenery or whatever, really. So it's full conscious awareness. And that is traditionally cultivated using mindfulness meditation. And there's a number of different mindfulness meditations, but they all focus really on cultivating, you know, this awareness of whatever is going on around you.

And the simplest of all meditations is that breathing meditation that I used to control my pain. So for someone listening right now who hopefully is sort of really resonated with your story yeah and really connects with that i think it's okay i like that yeah um i want to do that you know just talk us through exactly if you if you were teaching someone right in front of you you were teaching me now yeah okay and you know i'm hoping by doing that yeah that we can hopefully teach the listeners to to to this podcast what they might be able to do. Okay.

The best thing to do is sit down. A straight back chair is the best. Okay. So I'm just getting in position. Okay. Okay. So keep your spine, you know, upright, erect, but not tense in any way, and just gradually close your eyes and begin to focus on the sensations of breathing.

So as the air flows in, pay attention to wherever the sensations are the strongest. It might be on the back of your throat or your nose or in your lungs. And then when you breathe out, again focus on wherever the sensations are the strongest. And broaden your awareness to focus on the way your shoulders rise and fall, the way your chest rises and falls. Really tune in to all the different sensations. After a while, usually sooner, you'll realize your mind has wandered away with itself. When it happens, gradually shepherd your awareness back to the sensations of breathing and gradually just pay attention and if you just do that for ideally 10, 20 minutes a day, you'll find that you become far, far calmer and in

control of your life. And it's, you know, it really is as simple as that. It's just, you can set aside 10 or 20 minutes a day to just focus on your breathing or one of the other mindfulness meditations. It will have a really profound long-term effect on the body and the mind so let's go into some of those benefits um you've been doing this for a long period of time you've written a number of books on this so what are the benefits of doing this okay um mindfulness especially one of the structured programs like mindfulness-based cognitive therapy has been proven in numerous clinical trials now to be at least as good as medication for depression, especially the worst forms of depression. In fact, it's actually slightly better than antidepressants for the worst forms of depression. Yeah, I saw that in that book, Mindfulness, A Practical Guide.

I think that the first book, is that the first book you wrote? That's the first one I wrote, yeah. That you co-wrote with Professor Mark Williams. That's right, yeah. I'm pretty sure I remember a stat there where he was, or I guess you guys wrote it together, but the statistic there was on, yeah, exactly that, how effective it can be, better than antidepressants in some cases.

Yes, yeah, yeah. Especially if there's a history of serious like childhood abuse, sexual assault, those really worse, terrible life traumas that leave people scarred for life. Mindfulness is actually better than medication. For the normal run-of-the-mill depression, it's on a par. But obviously, you're not taking medication. So I think on that level, it's better. Yeah, absolutely. So for mental health problems like depression, but I imagine also anxiety, that there's a huge role for it. What else can it help with? The whole range of mental health problems that is afflicting society, really.

Anxiety, stress, depression, insomnia, all the mental health maladies of modern life. because stress impacts every single organ in our body, whether it's our brain, so our memory, our emotional brain, our amygdala, so anxiety, it can even increase the risk of getting type 2 diabetes. A lot of people don't think of stress reduction when they think of type 2 diabetes. They think about diet and exercise. But chronically elevated stress levels raises

your cortisol, which raises your blood sugar, which is a cause of type 2 diabetes. Gut problems like irritable bowel syndrome, which are so prevalent now, we know that stress plays a big role. So I bet you your practices will also benefit these other conditions as well. practices will also benefit these other conditions as well. I think that's true. I mean, there is evidence that, you know, people who have cancer, for example, it's not a cure for cancer at all, but it allows people to cope with the illness. I have heard that it is, you know, it can help with type 2 diabetes as well. It doesn't surprise me. Because you think about it.

I mean, virtually any serious health complaint has got a mental component because you end up in these damaging downward spirals. You've been given a diagnosis. It's stressful itself. Anybody who gets a diagnosis of a serious illness they're going to be anxious and stressed and unhappy yeah danny i think you raise a really good point there because as you know as a gp um if i think about it we're often you know often in our conferences at our sort of when we're with professional colleagues we get told a lot that actually if we don't deliver a diagnosis or we don't explain clearly what's going on we can actually induce a lot of anxiety and worry in our patients so even if we're not trying to I think

certainly as a profession sometimes we don't realize how damaging what we do or what you know the way we give blood test results or a flippant remark here you know can have quite a damaging impact so you know even even for that i think mindfulness and and sort of breathing meditations could potentially be helpful yeah yeah yeah i think it is so do you run classes i do i mean i don't teach so much these days. The books have taken up so much of my life. How many books have you got now? I've got four books on mindfulness. One is to do with kind of the mental health issues,

you know, anxiety, stress, depression. That's mindfulness, finding peace in a frantic world. Mindfulness for health is for chronic pain and illness because mindfulness is great for relieving um chronic pain again there's lots of evidence that there really is and i can tell you my mother she's not doing a formal um well i don't think it's a formal meditation type mindfulness practice but what she does and because she has some pain issues what mum does is she's come off all her painkillers, which is brilliant. I've helped her to do that over the last couple of years.

And interestingly enough, as you come off all the painkillers, her pain is no worse, which is just remarkable in itself if you think about that. But when it's particularly bad, she'll do some yoga breathing practices for about five minutes. And she just says it's just remarkable how it reduces her pain and we've got a chronic painkiller problem yeah with opiates in particular in this country lots of people out there are addicted all over the world actually certainly here in the uk but in the us the problem is probably even a little bit worse and i kind of feel that what you're proposing what you're trying to raise awareness of, mindfulness and breathing, can have a profound impact there.

It does, and it works on many different levels. That's why mindfulness is very effective across the board, but also for pain. Because the first thing it does if you are suffering chronic pain is you begin to relax and that itself relaxes your whole body becomes well more relaxed obviously but you you relieve the mechanical pressure on the body so for example if you're suffering from osteoarthritis as soon as

you relieve that mechanical pressure a lot of the pain goes. And the process of relaxing gets rid of the pain very, very quickly. But it works on a far deeper level too, because the irony of pain is if you begin to suffer it, your brain actually lays down extra pathways so that you can begin to feel pain more efficiently. It sounds crazy, but your brain actually adapts because you're focused on the pain. It thinks you, it begins to look out for it. And so you end up in this kind of downward spiral that goes for weeks and months and years. And so you can end up in a terrible state just by your brain rewiring itself to feel that. It's incredible. It's like a feed forward cycle.

So I guess the analogy would be if we're, you know, if you go for a run, right, you're working out. That's a lot of stress on the body. When you're resting, your body is recovering. OK, how can we do that more efficiently? So next time you go, you're more efficient at running. So I guess what you're saying is if you're in chronic pain and you're focusing on the pain and you're worrying about the pain, your brain then is diverting energy and attention to that pain

and saying, well, how can we access that pain a little bit more efficiently potentially? That is exactly how it works. You become more efficient at feeling pain. Now, what mindfulness does is it broadens your whole field of awareness. So you begin to see your pain in a broader context. So effectively, it begins to be diluted. And you realise that, yes, you're in pain at this moment. It's not very pleasant. However, you have a whole life that you can live. So then you begin to reverse that process. Because you're no longer so focused on those sensations of pain, your brain is obviously less focused on it. So it begins to, essentially the pathways in the brain begin to fossilize and you gradually begin to feel it less acutely.

So, I mean, Danny, I think the research on mindfulness and meditation is just, from what I can see, is exploding. There's more and more papers coming out. I think that's almost reflective of where we've got to in just with our health across the world in general, which is I think there is a gradual awareness that we are over-medicating symptoms. People are sick of taking pill after pill. Often they don't feel better even on those pills. So at least if on the pills you were

feeling better, you could see, okay, fine, there may be some side effects when I'm feeling better. So I can see that mindfulness would have a key role. Now, I do think the term is a little bit scary for some people. Some people go, okay, great, what does that really mean? So I wonder if we could dive into some of the actual daily you know, mechanics, daily mechanics of how people might do this. And I know in your, I think it was the first finding piece in a frantic world, you had something called habit releases. What are those? Human beings are fantastic habit machines. You know, you do something twice and you will actually lay down tracks in the brain to do that more efficiently.

And it's just the way human beings are. Now, what it means in practice is you can also automate the way you think. You know, most of what we think each day and what we do each day is actually just some form of habit somewhere between, it's about 50 to 80% of all of our thoughts and behaviors are just habits that are being triggered over and over and over again. Crucially, it means that, you know, we often automate negative states of mind and negative thoughts. And we can end up in these tremendous downward spirals that, you know, really is the root cause of depression and anxiety and stress. Now, you interrupt it, the process, obviously with mindfulness meditation. But the thing with

habit releases is it begins to do these daily practices, whether it's something often very, very simple, like changing the place that you sit in meetings, for example. If you sit in a different chair at a meeting, you will have completely different thoughts than if you sit in your normal place. Sounds very simple, but you can have actually changed the direction of your life for that day. You know, just instead of getting your usual bus at the usual time, if you maybe get on a different bus stop or get a different bus or just walk, this can change the direction of your life for that day.

And progressively, you know, as the days turn into weeks and months and years. Danny, I mean, it does sound remarkable, but absolutely believable to me that's yes just that you know so much of what we do day in day out are just habits yes um yeah it's the same even with people's dietary choices right um these are habits people will often say for example it's not quite the same thing but i think i think there's a there's a good analogy there which is um if you're used to having tea with sugar for example and you've had it like that for five years you've had tea with two spoons of sugar in you know what

initially that's what your condition your your your body is expecting that and it likes that your taste buds do as well so when you actually have tea without that sugar, you think it tastes disgusting. But if you can white knuckle it for a few weeks and go to sort of three weeks without anything, suddenly a cup of tea with no sugar in tastes fantastic. And if you have a cup of tea with sugar in, it tastes really super sweet.

And the reason I bring that up is that I think people can resonate with that and that's how quickly your habits can change would you say it's the same thing with mindfulness? Yes, yes and if you combine this kind of conscious process of breaking habits with mindfulness

then the effect is even more profound. So give me an example. What can someone do? Let's say someone's listening to this and they are actually, you know, I get that. That sounds great. But what can I really do in my life? Have you got like a tip that people can think about?

Yeah, I mean, really very simple things. Like if you're going to, say, a restaurant or a pub or a meeting at work, sit in a different place. If you walk into a bar, for example, and sit at a different table and look around, you will see a completely different environment than if you sat in your usual place. And if you sit in your normal place, you will actually zone out and you won't notice anything at all. You sit somewhere different and you will see everything from a different angle you'll suddenly you know there'll be different sights and sounds and smells you you will be alive so i guess this could be wherever you normally sit for dinner at the table switch it up a bit yeah absolutely whatever you do just

do it slightly differently and it'll just give like a little frisson of excitement almost life becomes a little bit more interesting yeah that's really interesting i'm going to try that actually see how that uh yeah how that goes i'll tell my wife tonight that i'm sitting on her seat tonight so i'd see what that does yeah yeah and you know just just extrapolate it through your life you know sit in a different place in the bus or the train, take a different route to work if you drive, choose different foods to what you would normally. I mean, we have a structured program in, you know, mindfulness, finding peace in a frantic world. But it doesn't have to be that structured. You really walk people through it, don't you, to help them, which I think can be incredibly beneficial.

And actually, guys, all the things that we're talking about and all the links to some of Danny's articles, but also all of his books will be in the show notes page, which is going to be drchastjee.com forward slash Danny. That's D-A-N-N-Y. So you'll be able to, everything we're talking about, they're going to be linked to that so that you can actually continue your learning experience after this is finished would this also be danny that um let's say someone says okay fine i want to take my mindfulness practice and i always think that the mornings first thing in the morning is a brilliant time you know obviously some people can't do that.

If you can't, that's okay. But I think it's a great way of setting up the day and changing. I think your action often determines your thoughts. So just us sitting in a different seat can change things. I think if you start your day really focused on yourself and being present that can have an impact throughout the day is that what you've seen it definitely is except i'm the opposite really yeah yeah i i cannot meditate in the morning oh this is intro tell me more so i uh what i tend to do is immediately before i start writing i will just spend a few minutes focusing on the breath. It's not really full-on meditation at all.

And then when I finished my day's work, before I collect our daughter from school, that's when I do my meditation. So it's a way of kind of switching off almost. Is it just before you pick up your daughter? Yeah. So I pick her up at 3 30 i meditate uh usually between about 10 to 3 to 20 past something like that sometimes a little bit bit less okay so here's a question

tanny have you had some times where you've not managed to do that when you pick up your daughter because you've been a bit busy right and so do you find that the interactions you have with your daughter, how old is she? Six. Six at the moment. Okay, six and a half. Okay. Do you find that your, yeah, those interactions are ever different? Well, let me put this a different way. If you reflect, when you do some form of mindfulness meditation before picking your daughter up, do you have a different relationship, a different sort of experience with it than when you don't? I suddenly realize I am so much calmer. And I feel as if my consciousness is an awful lot broader. So when I walk out the house, I walk across the park. I notice all the leaves on the trees, the color of the bark, the smell of the park, the grass or the moisture in the air so i'm really connected and really alive and then i go and collect her and you know it's it's a profoundly different interaction relationship i have with my daughter on those days which is most days that i can i do the meditation but some days i don't manage to for various reasons and what happens then because you let's say you're rushing to get her you've you're running around i don't know if you, I'm sure you get stressed from time to time.

Even though you're the mindfulness guy, I'm sure that's real life for most of us. Is what happens then? Do you notice, I don't know, tell me what happens with your daughter then or what can happen? What tends to happen with me is when I begin to get stressed, I feel as if I can't keep up with things. I feel like there's this treadmill that I'm just kind of being dragged along and I'm not really in control of things. And that comes out as maybe like a bit of snappiness, a bit of short-temperedness, just that feeling of, you know, it's my amygdala starts to fire up, you know, it's fight or flight kind of uh situation and that that's everybody

experiences stress in different ways but that that's what it is with me yeah you know this is telling many people who listen to this podcast have children yeah and i think you know certainly i'm a father i think i can resonate i'm sure many of them will resonate with this whole this whole idea that when we are stressed and we've got lots of things on our plate that can sort of bubble over yeah and that can impact the relationship with our children yeah but even i guess you know we say parents and children even if you don't have children it's the same thing as with interactions with your work colleagues isn't it if you come into work and you're a bit overloaded yeah suddenly you can't

really deal with those work emails anymore they start to bother you and start to frustrate you and you get angry and anxious um so so this in some ways i mean obviously it's great that you've got this this daily practice that you can do it before you pick up your daughter for people who say you know i'm working i can't do that, what advice would you give to them? You have to just build moments into the day. First of all, you have to understand it's very, very effective. You know, if you meditate or practice mindfulness, it liberates more time than it consumes. So you might spend five minutes or 10 minutes meditating a day, but actually you're spending far less time being worried or stressed or unhappy liberates more time than it consumes. So you might spend five minutes or 10 minutes meditating a day,

but actually you're spending far less time being worried or stressed or unhappy or just going through the whole habit routines all of the time. So you will end up liberating maybe half an hour or an hour extra. So you're creating more time by doing it. You are creating more time. That's a key, key point because people say, I don't have time to do it yeah yeah it's it but it really is true you know all you have to do is spend a few days meditating you suddenly realize there are actually quite a few gaps in the day where you can squeeze in just moments here and there and actually if you're really really pushed for time the next time you have a cup of tea or coffee use it to meditate you know so if you've got a cup of coffee in front of you, you know, close your eyes and just focus on the taste of the coffee. Tune into all the sights and sounds

that surround you. And that is a moment of mindfulness. You know, everybody thinks of mindfulness as a form of meditation. Well, meditation is just one form of practicing mindfulness, you know. What it really is, is being connected to whatever is going on around you. That's where its benefits come from. It's not sitting in the lotus position and, you know, focusing on your breath. The benefits of mindfulness come from just being connected with life so in many ways that the daily practice that you're recommending yeah it's not really about that that's that's almost tuning you into it so that for the other 23 and a half hours of the day obviously you're sleeping for a lot of them but but for the for the other hours of the day you are hopefully more mindful more attentive more present

because of the practice. Yeah, absolutely. And you think if you extrapolate that, you know, if you're spending, like most people do, 60 or 80% of your time going through an unconscious habit, you're actually only alive for a few hours each day, you know, maybe four or five hours each day. Now, if you practice meditation for, say, 20 minutes a day and you then become conscious of your books you also mentioned um mindful movement meditation yeah now i wonder if that fits in here because obviously you've got a practice but you can sit at home you do your breathing meditation yeah um you also mentioned when making a cup of tea or coffee yeah you can you know practice mindfulness. But what about movement? How can someone be mindful when moving? Well, yoga is essentially, you know, a moving meditation. But any physical activity at all, if you really pay attention to it, that can become a mindfulness exercise. So if you're going for a walk, you know, feel the ground beneath your feet, the way your legs move, the way you sway gently from side to side. Pay attention to all of the sights around you, the beauty of the trees or maybe the ugliness of the buildings or the cars.

And try not to make judgments about whether something's beautiful. Just tune into it. Just pay attention to it and the sights so the sounds and the smells you know just reconnect with life that's a very simple exercise you anybody can do at all yeah and that's something that i've started doing recently actually and it is incredible if you know when you go for a walk you you know get your phone out of the way yes yes that for me that's the many times it's it's the complete opposite of mindfulness in so many ways. Get the phone, often I put it in my rucksack so I can't see it.

I go for a walk and really try and just feel how your feet are touching the ground. Or was that my heel? Now that's my forefoot. You know, it's just tuning into it. And it can be tricky at first if you're not used to it. tuning into it and it can be tricky at first if you're not used to it but i mean in your experience of talking to people all around the country and probably around the world about how they're finding it what are some of the common problems that people have and are there some some some simple solutions yeah well yes the the problems have existed for thousands of years and the biggest problem of all is doing it. You know, people will often do mindfulness just once or twice and then for whatever reason, life gets in the way and they just stop doing it.

So the most important thing is to try and build it into your life. You know, 10 minutes a day, four, four five six days a week is infinitely better than just one marathon session a month yeah you know it's the daily ordinary ordinariness of it that's crucial yeah and that that's the difficulty is just actually remembering to do it i think for me danny that's why first thing in the morning is when it works best for me. I know even though it only takes 10 minutes, I know that as the day goes on, I don't have 10 minutes, which is ridiculous because of course I've got 10 minutes. And actually those 10 minutes are going to give me more time actually afterwards and I'll be that much more productive. I'll easily make back that time.

I know for me and many of my patients, first thing in the morning is it either happens then or it doesn't happen but i'm quite inspired by your um your afternoon session actually that that makes me think and i'm gonna have a little think about that okay so a common problem is not doing it any other common problems yeah misperceptions as to what it actually is um people tend to sit there or people tend to think you've got to sit there in the lotus position. And actually, it doesn't matter how you sit and when you're meditating. The most important thing is just going off and doing it. People also think it's a religious practice and it's not at all. I mean, obviously, it was first developed or at least promoted by Buddhists two and a half thousand years ago. But truth is, all religions have got forms of mindfulness meditation.

Atheists are perfectly happy. You're not tuning into any deity or anything like that. It's purely secular activity. I think it's great to remind people of that because sometimes that can put people off the other thing I loved about that was it's a very similar message to I think it was episode 25 of this podcast I interviewed someone called Light Watkins

and The Truth About Meditation is the name of that podcast and he also said forget about the lowest position forget about keeping your back straight if you can't do it. Just start in whatever position you would watch television in, get going. We can work on that as you get better at it. And I think it really removes a barrier to entry.

Yeah. So many people who are suffering stress and anxiety are perfectionists and actually they bring that perfectionism to mindfulness and actually you don't need to you know you find what you find and it's as simple and as beautiful as that yeah that's a key message isn't it i can really echo with that um it's i guess in some ways it's don't let perfection be an obstacle to the actual action of doing it. Just do it. Basically, just do it and you'll get the benefits. Yeah, exactly.

It's like when people are meditating, they get really annoyed with themselves when their mind suddenly chases off, they suddenly start thinking. And actually, that's a moment of mindfulness. When you realise your mind has wandered, that is a moment of mindfulness. So in the midst of that apparent failure is actually your success. So embrace it. Embrace the fact that it's wandered. Okay, I wandered, now I'm getting back to the breath. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

That's a great message. Danny, your latest book, The Art of Breathing, has been out for a few months now. I believe it's out all over the world now. It's out in America as well, isn't it? Yeah, just published in America, yep. Yeah, fantastic. So what's different about this the art of breathing secrets are living mindfully yeah can you tell me sort of a little bit what what do people get from this book yeah it's essentially a very simple short uh mindfulness course really you know it's it just takes gives you the the absolute core of what you need to know about meditation to do it.

And I got together with a really great artist. So it's, you know, some people have said it's a beautiful book. I couldn't possibly comment on that. Danny, I'm flicking through it now because you very kindly brought a copy to this conversation that we're having. I've got to say it's short, which appeals to a lot of people. It's really beautifully designed. There's lots of nice images and graphics.

And I think that this kind of book that's going to make breathing and mindfulness a lot more accessible to people who feel that it's a little bit... There's a different feel to this book, The Art of Breathing, to the first book I came across you know mindfulness finding peace in a frantic world which yeah i think is very good it's quite meaty isn't it it's got a lot more yeah what a lot more science in that would you say yeah a lot more science uh it's a it's a step

by step guide explains everything in minute detail uh it's an eight week course because whereas this new one feels as though you could sort of have it on the coffee table and every day sort of tap into it with a little bit of inspiration is that was that the idea behind it yeah exactly it just gives you everything you need to know very simple very short very sweet so you can just pick it up and just just to begin you know because i think you know i love the idea that people are going to really get to grips and love the science behind mindfulness and meditation but truth is lots of people won't yeah so that's the art of breathing is aimed at those people who just want to get going yeah and i think that's a

great message really there's there's no question there is so much science on mindfulness and meditation now you know do we need to blind people with more and more science is really the obstacle to getting more people practicing mindfulness and practicing meditation is knowledge the the obstacle i'm not convinced it is i think people sort of know yeah it's good for them yeah it's actually the how-to that we need isn't it absolutely and the encouragement and just uh yeah just just begin that's i'm super looking forward to getting involved in this because i do have a tendency to you know get stuck into a meditation practice for a few days sometimes a few weeks and then sometimes it sort of falls off again yeah which you know i don't beat myself up about it anymore

like i used to yeah um but i think this book could be incredibly useful so i'm gonna yeah you know i'm gonna get stuck into this there's lots of nice little exercises you can just do anywhere just to reconnect and nice images i can see as well so to finish off danny i always you know i talk about four pillars of health food movement sleep and relaxation yeah and i i'm very much about taking a a, holistic approach to health and tackling all the various lifestyle factors. If we talk specifically about your work, mindfulness and meditation, do you have four top tips for people that we can leave them with to hopefully inspire them to take up some form of practice? Yeah. I mean, if you are feeling stressed, maybe you're sitting in your office or, you know, you're just life is getting beginning to overwhelm you and you need a break right now. Just literally go outside.

Look at the sky. Look at the horizon. Look down the street. Just broaden your awareness. That is incredibly simple thing to do. And it's very, very effective. Another great tip is your next tea or coffee break you know just close your eyes pay attention to all of the flavors and the smells of of the tea or coffee really savor it yeah just

really because you know life is for living and we miss so so much because we're just driven by these habits you know we we think we know what a cup of coffee or tea is going to taste like so we never actually taste it you know that the coffee taste that is in your brain is probably from 20 years ago you know that's a great point great great point okay so that's two good tips any more well just normal good lifestyle advice really you know um try to eat a little bit better. That's the great thing about mindfulness. Because you're noticing the tastes of food and drink as they actually are,

you're drawn to nicer tasting, healthier food rather than just bland junk food. Okay, so third one, pay attention to other aspects of your lifestyle. And I don't know if that's it or whether we can whether we can have a fourth and final tip again just general good lifestyle advice is you know begin to move a little bit more you know and that's the other thing about mindfulness uh you suddenly will begin to realize actually you might be quite slovenly. And ideally, I guess you can be mindful whilst you're moving. Absolutely. And you'll also realise how nice it is to actually move, to let your body behave in the way it was designed to behave.

Yeah, Danny, those are great tips. You know, get outside, you know, pay attention to that next cup of tea or coffee and pay attention to all these lifestyle factors, including movement. I think that is some really, really good advice. Yeah, Danny, thank you for taking the time to join me today. I can see that you're not on school run today because you are here chatting with me. I'd love to get you back on actually at some point.

I think there's much more that we could talk about. We just really scratched the surface today, but I really appreciate your time time and thank you for such a beautiful book the art of breathing thank you that concludes today's episode of the feel better live more podcast i hope you have found the conversation to be enjoyable and it's hopefully inspired you to be a little bit more mindful in your daily life and potentially even take up a regular practice. As Danny says, life is for living, but we miss so much of it. I totally agree. So much of the time we are on autopilot that we often miss out on the small things that can give us great pleasure. Do let me and Danny know how you get on with his tips. Danny is on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram with the handle Dr. Danny Penman. And if possible, do use the

hashtag feel better, live more. Now don't forget full show notes to this episode are available on my website at drchastji.com forward slash Danny. And many of you are wondering actually what does a show notes page look like? Well, basically it's a list of all the things that Danny and I spoke about, plus links to many different resources, including some free guided meditations from Danny. Now, there's one on there that's called a chocolate meditation, which Danny tells me is a huge hit with people. It's basically learning about mindfulness whilst eating chocolate. Sounds pretty perfect, right? So do check it out on the show notes page at drchastji.com forward slash Danny. Don't forget to pay a visit to the

website of today's sponsors, Athletic Greens. Remember there is a special offer with your first order worth £70 which you can access at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. As always it would be great if you could help me spread awareness about the show. My goal is to get this information out to as many people as possible. The best way is to leave a review on whichever platform you are listening to this on, such as Apple or Acast or Overcast. You could even take a screenshot on your phone right now and share it on your social media channels. Or you could do it the old-fashioned way. Simply just let your friends know about it. Now, for those of you new to the podcast, my first book, The Four-Pillar Plan, is available all over the world now,

so do consider picking up a copy. In America and Canada, it has been released with a brand new title, How to Make Disease Disappear. My latest book, The Stress Solution, is out in just a couple of months now and is available to pre-order. Links to all of my books, as well as Danny's books, will be available on the show notes page on my website. That is it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure you have pressed subscribe, and I'll be back next week for the latest conversation on the Feel Better, Live More podcast. Remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more.

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