Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #31 Born to Run with Vassos Alexander

Episode Date: October 10, 2018

“Try it, you will not regret it” Do you think running is just not for you?  I think it will be hard not to want to give it a go after listening to this week’s podcast with BBC Radio 2 sports presenter, podcast host, author and self-confessed running addict, Vassos Alexander. Formerly unfit and out of shape, Vassos has now run the Spartathlon – a 153 mile ultramarathon race held annually in Greece.  He shares his journey and gives a fascinating insight into the history behind this event. Vassos believes that it doesn’t matter how far you run or how fast, it is just about getting out there and giving it ago.  And the benefits speak for themselves – he considers running a form of therapy.   This is a lively and engaging conversation and Vassos’s passion for running is palpable – I hope it inspires you! Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/vassos Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It doesn't matter where you are on the journey. It doesn't matter where the journey is going to, but just get on it because you really, I promise you, I honestly, you can see my kind of, again, my body language. I honestly promise anyone who's listening, try it. Just, you will not regret it. Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan

and television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier because when we feel better, we live more. Hello and welcome to another episode of my Feel Better Live More podcast.

My name is Rangan Chastji and I am your host. Today's conversation is one of inspiration and hope with the one and only Vassos Alexander. Vassos is well known for being the sports presenter on the biggest national radio program we have here in the UK, the Chris Evans Breakfast Show. radio program we have here in the UK, The Chris Evans Breakfast Show. He is also the author of two best-selling books, which are all about his experience of how running has changed his life. I think you are going to really enjoy the frank and honest conversation I have, and I genuinely think it's going to inspire you to think about movement and running a little bit differently. Now, before we get on to today's conversation, I am pleased

to announce an ongoing partnership with Athletic Greens, who are the sponsors of today's show. I know from the growing popularity of this podcast, as well as the feedback, that many of you are really enjoying the podcast and look forward to each weekly episode. Now, in order to support the time and expense it takes to put these podcasts out, I have taken on a sponsor whose vision is really well aligned with my own to help people feel better so that they can get more out of life. As you know, I believe that the right nutrition is an essential ingredient to having a healthy and happy life. And there's no question that I prefer people to get their nutrition from

eating food. But these days, that can be a little bit challenging for many of us. We might be busy, on the go, rushing around, and even with the best intentions on some days, it can be a little bit tricky to cook a wholesome, nutritious meal. Now, if you feel that this might apply to you and you want to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend Athletic Greens. It is a super tasty whole food greens powder that you can take each morning. And unlike most green supplements that I've tried in the past, it tastes fantastic.

In fact, my kids absolutely love it. I love the company ethos and I have to say that it is unquestionably one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that I've come across. For listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you will be able to access a special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around £70 with your very first order. So do go and check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation. So Vassos, we're actually here in your studio. I have been listening to your breakfast show with Chris Evans for, I think I can remember the first episode actually.

I think it was in my car driving to a hospital, I think, and actually listening. And I'm actually here sitting in it now, talking to you, which is a bit nuts. Is that your seat or is that where Chris normally sits this is Chris's seat and I love the fact that you called it my breakfast show with Chris Evans yeah that's that's how I think of it too no this is this is where Chris sits and he does all the you know the button pressing and that's that cart wall over there has all our sound effects and all various things so i usually sit in that chair over there by the window wow yeah i can see lots thousands of pounds worth of uh technological equipments here and i brought my portable little podcast recorder with two mics and you are very kindly uh holding the mic to your

face so i kind of i feel we're getting a bit lo-fi in this very high exactly what we use for the um for the park run podcast the free weekly time, which you kindly came on last week. Exactly the same recorder. Producer Patrick has one of these. You can have four microphones. You can put your headphones in. It's fantastic. Yeah, I absolutely agree. Well, Vassos, look, I've sort of, having heard you for many years on the radio, but also on TV a couple of times, I think, you know, I've been very interested in seeing what's been in the media about your story, in particular, your story as a runner. And this morning, I was on the train down to London, and I was looking through some stuff that you'd written. And you wrote a Telegraph article,

I think, probably around the release of your last book. And you said your story is pretty simple, really. And I think it was something like you were sitting in a pub eating a packet of crisps, realising you're a little bit unhealthy so you decided to run. I wonder if you could expand on that a little bit. Actually, I'll tell you the moment. The moment was, I mean I was sitting in a pub a lot in those days but the moment was a set of traffic lights on my way to read the sports news

I think at Radio 5 Live. I'd just been playing golf, I was on the late shift and I was at a set of traffic lights and my shirt, unusually for me because I'd been playing golf, was tucked into my trousers. And I just noticed a little kind of a flop of fat, quite literally a kind of spare tyre wrapped in a yellow golf shirt flopping over my belt. And I thought, oh my goodness, you know,

I was in my early 30s at this stage. And I thought, oh my goodness, you know, I was in my early 30s at this stage. And I thought, okay, so here's the deal. You're no longer in your 20s. You either stop eating what you like or you start exercising or you get fat. And I remembered a late night drive back from Oxford to London with Steve Bunce. I mean, he's a boxing expert, but he's kind of,

he's a well-known sports commentator. And in his kind of North London bark of a voice, he said, you know, Vas, let me tell you something. I'm getting older. I'm getting fatter. I'm getting happier. And I thought, well, we're going the Buncey route, you know. I'll just get older and fatter and happier.

But something kind of didn't ring true. I thought that's sort of like giving up. And I didn't like the idea. I was about to become a father. I didn't like the idea of being unhealthy. So I thought, well, let me try a gym. And on the same day, on the way to the bar, television centre, the bar is right next to the way to the bar at Television Centre.

The bar is right next to the gym in the old BBC club. And so I went into the gym on the way to the bar and I booked a personal training appointment with a guy called Andrew, great guy. And then I was sort of slightly too scared to the next morning through a mild fog of hangover. I'm slightly too scared to cancel it. And so I turned up and I hated it.

I absolutely hated it. You know, when you first do exercise, having not done exercise, it's not an easy thing. But I sort of stuck with it for a little bit. And then I went for my first outside run around about that time after, I don't know, a couple of weeks. And suddenly it was as if a kind of a fog had been lifted. So, oh, OK, this is what this is what exercise can be.

It just seemed to tick so many boxes. Yes, it was hard. And yes, actually, I started running and I didn't get to the end of my streak because I came out of my front door and I thought, oh, my neighbours are going to see me here. So they're not going to see me go slowly because I'm, you know, I'm too proud. So I steamed off down the street, got to the end of the street, realised that I actually had run out of puff. So landed, I sort of hung over a wall

of a neighbour of ours, getting my breath back. At which point that neighbour, with a few other friends came out of her house said what are you doing and i went oh i'm going for a run she's what you've just got this far like 200 yards down the street and i went no no i've i've actually finishing my run and i always warm down this is my warm down so i always finish it here by your wall and then i i walk home so having announced to my wife that I was going for my first run, kind of two minutes previously, I'd got to the wall.

And then Sophie says, well, we're walking that way as well. We'll walk home with you. So I had no choice, but I had to then walk back, back through the front door to kind of merciless taunts from Caroline, my wife said, well, your first run lasted how long? A minute and a half. And yeah, i told her what happened but i sort of i stuck with it i just stuck with it i realized that you know it was

getting myself not just outside which is great yeah and one of the key things i think about running is just doing it outside but also outside of my own comfort zone and whether that meant running for um sorry this is a very long answer but whether that meant running for a for a for a minute and then walking for 30 seconds and then expanding that to two minutes before you walk and then three minutes and four minutes and then suddenly realizing i don't need any walking breaks anymore i can just slow down the run a little bit and then just go and then you know you went it just sort of it just snowballed but snowballed in a good way and and i sort of realized that this is this had been the thing funnily enough because i'd never run before that had been missing from my life i mean and that's incredible vassos and there's so many things that i think people will uh resonate with on that you know on your

story basically um how old were you when you were were you when that moment hit you that actually you saw that roll of fat under your yellow golf shirt? Yeah. I was early 30s, maybe 32, maybe 33, that sort of area. And prior to that, would you say that you have been someone who, because I'm looking at you now, you look fit, you look slim. Would you say in general that you were someone who actually didn't really need to pay much attention to their lifestyle yet could sort of get away with it? Absolutely got away with it. Absolutely. I mean, I'm not tall like you, but I'm six foot.

And I just never considered myself to be anything other than kind of slender until that moment with a yellow fat. And I had a very unhealthy lifestyle to be honest I um I smoked I gave up the smoking before I started running that was that was a sort of the moment Caroline became pregnant with Emily our first um the the cigarettes left although they were replaced by nicotine gum for a while um but it was just, yes, I just never really thought about my health. And, you know, becoming a dad makes you, you know, you know, makes you re-evaluate stuff. And that was the reason that I didn't take the, you know, older, fatter, happier lifestyle. And by the way, I couldn't be happier that I didn't. And I think if, you know.

Well, that's a really important message, isn't it? You know, you... Well, we'll go on your running journey, actually, to the fact that you run ultra events now, which is remarkable because you're saying in your early 30s you couldn't actually run for more than a minute and a half, two minutes. If that.

If that. And what was the latest ultra event you completed? There was something in Greece, wasn't there? Yeah, this is... Listen, stop me if I get boring on this, but I love this event. This is a real historical event. I just want people listening to this just to remember that it just, it wasn't that long ago that Vassos couldn't run more than a couple of minutes,

basically. And it was, you have to, you actually, you know, I don't like saying it because it sounds kind of full of pride, but you do have to qualify for this event. You know, it's one of the, it's one of the iconic, if not the iconic, I don't really like the term ultra running because it sounds exclusive. It sounds like only ultra fit, ultra honed athletes need apply. need apply and you know I make my living as a sports reporter and I've been and witnessed and been around an awful lot of sports and actually exactly the opposite of exclusivity is true of I prefer the term endurance running because you go to the start line of an event like a you know a 50 mile race which sounds kind of so ridiculous you know to run that sort of distance but it's the

most welcoming and all-inclusive and all sorts of sizes and shapes are on the start line and everyone will be pleased to see you. And it's not really about, you know, the time. It's about the mindfulness aspect. And I'll get on to that. But this particular event, it's probably the longest single sort of shot event that there is.

There are longer ones, but you kind of sleep in between. It's 153, I think it is, miles between Athens and Sparta. And you're following in the footsteps of, you may have heard of this Greek messenger, this ancient Greek messenger called Pheidippides, who ran from Marathon to Athens to deliver news of a military victory and died on the spot, basically, he delivered his message and died. And he gave birth to what we now call the marathon and millions and millions of people take part every year.

We've got him to thank for it. Only he's just a little bit derided, isn't he? I mean, if you think about it, what you're an elite messenger and you can't survive a jog from marathon to Athens. and you can't survive a jog from Marathon to Athens. Well, if you rewind that story a few days, when the Persians, this massive bloodthirsty army of Persians, arrived on shore in Marathon, having kind of ransacked all before them, if you were in Athens, you would have been petrified because basically this nascent democracy, this would have all, this was all going to end.

You were all going to die. And they thought, well, we have one hope. This is sort of peaceful, loving city state, the Athenians. We have to go to Sparta across the mountains in the Peloponnese and ask for help. And there was no kind of, know telephoning you know the local spartan mayor you know you had to send somebody and and the best they had was this guy philippides so they sent him across the 153 odd miles to sparta to ask for spartan help let's meet in marathon let's try and cut them off there it's our only hope was the message um because the you

know the persians have arrived and Sparta would have been equally, although they were sort of a bit more kind of warrior-like the Spartans, they would have been equally terrified of the invading Persian army. So he made that trip to Sparta. It ended well for everybody. And then reading an account of that, it always comes down to the eccentric Brits. It was an RAF officer who read that Philippides arrived before night fell on the second day. And he thought, well, that's just not possible to do that distance in 36 hours.

So he thought, I'll give it a go. And he failed completely, but it really captured the imagination of the Greeks. And so now this race is born the spartathlon and you know loads of you have to i think you've had to have run 100 mile race in under 20 hours just to just get on the start line um and hardly anyone finishes because trust me an awful lot can go wrong in 150 miles um and they they back time it so you have to do the first marathon out of the sort of the undulating hills out of athens in something like three hours 45 wow so they make it time they make it really hard and then and then the sort of the cutoffs and there are cutoffs every two or three miles otherwise you're out yeah you're out unless you meet that criteria wow um but the greeks and i'm greek and so maybe this

you know this was like it was my kind of Everest. Yeah. They feel strongly that you're honoring their past and their culture and their history by running the race, which of course you are. Absolutely. But, you know, you go through tiny villages in the middle of the night and everybody's up. Children, grannies, everybody's up. The tavernas are open. Come in, eat what you like. Thank you for doing this race. then you reach sparta and the whole town is celebrating the the sort of the lunatic few that managed to

finish this race and instead of crossing a finishing line you touch the the the feet of the warrior king in the center of the town and it's just one of the most extra the local children take your hand and escort you through the town as you finish sounds incredible it was just one of the most the local children take your hand and escort you through the town as you finish it sounds incredible it almost transcends culture you're paying homage to the heritage of the place and everyone gets involved it sounds like

and if you kind of rewind even further you know the way that we were there's a book and it's a source of almost like a holy script of ultra running or endurance running called Born to Run. And you'll know this, that we are, wear down the deer across the African savannah. You touch on this in your books, right? This whole history.

Yeah, the born to run thing. But the fact that I was honouring an old Greek messenger who was doing the job of his ancestors, that we are runners, that's why we look like we were. So you sort of feel like you know we are kind of we are runners we are that's why we look like we so you sort of feel like you're doing right by your dna as well as by your your heritage your greek history so that's why that race and that's why i've gone on about it so long but you can see in your body language and everything about as you your your your body language changes as you talk about it you're lighting up your, smiling as well as your mouth. Everything about you is changing.

There's obviously such pride there and delights that not only did you qualify, but you went and did it. Yes. I'm so, you know, you hear, I hear a lot of sports people say, I'm so humbled to have won the gold medal. And I think you don't mean that at all. You're not. But I honestly, because of everything, I do feel so humbled to have been able to even take part in the race, let alone finish it. And it's almost like becoming a dad, to be honest.

And actually, when I first finished my first, it was a 100-mile race, the joy I felt on crossing the finishing line wasn't this euphoric joy. It was sort of better than that. It was this deep contentment. The joy I felt on crossing the finishing line wasn't this euphoric joy. It was sort of better than that. It was this deep contentment, like when each of my children was born. I carried this kind of private bubble of everything's okay with the world around with me for weeks. And I did again at the end of the 100 mile race for some reason. And I will put finishing the Spartathlon up there with the birth of my children.

And I don't do that because I'm not a good father and I don't care about my children. I'm doing it because that was so important, I guess, on my own personal journey. Would you do it again? Yeah, so interesting. Interesting. Yes, of course. But Caroline, if you're listening to this, no, I wouldn't. But Caroline, if you're listening to this, no, I wouldn't.

I did actually, between us, I did. You can auto qualify for it by doing a certain, you know, 20% quicker than any of the qualifying criteria. And you're straight and you don't have to go through the ballot. And I didn't apply with having auto qualified. Because I think my first 100 miles were quick enough to a to make the next 53 really difficult but b to to auto qualify but i didn't apply because it's just it's not fair on my wife and kids that i keep on going off and doing these ridiculously long runs i imagine the training for that must be pretty intense and it's not too bad really i mean

people who do long triathlons ironman triathathlons, and I've done that as well, that info, or even these cycling sportives, which are all great by the way, but the training takes, you know, you need to do a five hour bike ride or a four hour bike ride. You very rarely need to run for four hours,

even in training for something like this. They say that, they say that, I was going to call it an ultra having just said, I don't like calling them ultra. I guess that is the common name though, isn't it? I guess. They say that, I was going to call it an ultra, having just said I don't like calling them ultra. I guess that is the common name though, isn't it? I guess. They say that, let's say a hundred mile race is 90% in the mind and the other 10% is also mental. And they're pretty much right.

You know, maybe, let's say maybe the first 30, 40 miles are in the legs and the rest is in the mind. But, you know, it is is all about because it doesn't matter how fast you're going it doesn't matter what you're doing it's just about um you know putting one step in front of the other so you don't have to you have to have a certain level of fitness you can't just turn up at a 50 mile race and expect to be able to finish it from nothing but if you can finish a marathon say yeah then i think you can probably finish no not probably definitely finish it sounds like once you've once you've reached that base level of fitness that you require to do a long distance event as you say like a marathon then the remainder

of it is in your mind um and i guess that's quite interesting because um a few episodes ago on the podcast, I spoke to a guy called Rich Roll. He's a guy who's based in LA and he was, you know, he basically, he turned 40 and, you know, on the outside, everything looks amazing. You know, he had a good job. He was a flash corporate lawyer in LA,

had a fancy sports car, nice house, but he was an alcoholic um and i think internally he was using alcohol to sort of you know hide from the things in his life that he didn't like and one day he was walking up his stairs and he was getting chest pain and you know that was one of his big awakening moments that you know wait a minute a minute, I've got children, I've got a family, I'm not happy and I'm not fit. I'm going to die soon. And he's basically turned his whole life around. He's quit alcohol.

He's, you know, revolutionized his diet. And now he, you know, Men's Health called him a few years ago, one of the fittest men on the planet. He runs ultra endurance events. Yeah, I know him. Oh, you know Rich. Yeah. And we had a great conversation and I was talking to Rich about, on these endurance events,

he was talking about the mental side of it. And I was asking him, and I'll probably ask you this question if I ask us, you know, do you learn things about yourself on those long events that you can't learn or it's hard to learn in the minutia of you know daily life absolutely absolutely i think you've you've almost hit the nail on the head i wish we'd had this chat before i wrote my second book but because you know you you've encapsulated it beautifully you do you strip away

the layers um chrissy wellington the iron man world champion once told me and she's great by the way both as a sports person as and as a human being but she once told me that and I should tell anyone you know that the reason she retired after her fourth world championship in Hawaii is that that race she couldn't kind of there were no more layers you know that she she that was the bottom of her well it was almost the perfect race that you know there's nowhere else to go and i felt that a little bit in in sparta like i literally couldn't i touched the statue having run you sort of charmingly you kiss the feet of the statue yeah amazing then you go into this medical tent but i lost the use of my legs for a week afterwards which is dramatically more than usually happens to... What does that mean?

You lost the use of your legs for a week? I couldn't walk. I was on a wheelchair through the airport. I was in a frame. I could haul myself around, but only through my arms because I had... It never happened before to me in a race,

but I had reached my kind of... There were no more layers to me that I only got to the finishing statue not line because of because i because i really wanted it it was you know my body had given up but my kind of internal commander just just found a way um to just to just get the job done even when I arrived in Sparta and you come into this, you know, I've been thinking about this for 30 odd hours, you know, this moment. You come into Sparta and there was an aid station with some food and some volunteers helping you. Can I help you?

And I thought, well, this is it because I could see the timing mat. And in the last 150 miles, it only mean three timing mats or four or something so i thought well they're not going to have one i thought there was a statue but obviously there isn't or i just can't see it but they wouldn't have a timing mat here and another timing mat at the end so um so this must be it this is and he goes there's only um a kilometer oh he said two and a half kilometers to go which is like a mile and a half and i seriously considered giving up then because i i in my head that was i'd reached that you know i'd seen that timing matt even only it only been a minute that i thought that i just reached there

you know i was done you thought you were done and so you'd almost probably process that in your mind oh yeah we've got it we've made it euphoria and then to be able to have to sort of re-motivate myself to kind of crawl almost that last mile and a half through to actually the kids came and and and took my hand and it wasn't that hard in the end um but to answer your your initial question about you know whether you find stuff out about yourself absolutely and you work stuff through and it's it's just that you know the the you that emerges from the discomfort, because let's not mess about here,

it's not all a great big smile. It does hurt. Mentally and physically? It hurts both? Yes, it hurts physically and you reach, if my wife calls me during one of these events and it's low intensity, so we were talking about park runs.

And if you and I are going to sprint a park run, a 5K, that's 20 odd minutes of high intensity. That hurts in a physical way. This hurts in a physical way, as in your legs will feel trashed and all sorts of odd things will happen in your stomach. And yes, but it hurts in a mental way in that you're, you know, you've got none of the usual defences around you. My wife calls me and I just cry, but in a kind of good cathartic way. And the you that emerges from the discomfort of an endurance run like that is a better version of the you that went in. Somehow it's like, you know, stripping down an engine and putting it back together slightly better.

It sounds like you almost go through, I can't put a number on it, but multiple intense therapy sessions with yourself whilst you're on this event. But without actually doing it, without thinking about, oh, I must think about my childhood

and this that might be, you know, you just, it's just happening in the background. And it's like, you know, I said doing right by our DNA, our genes. Somehow, you know, because this is what we're meant to do, getting ourselves, you know, look at us. We're sitting in a warm studio, although not as warm as it should be

because the air conditioning still hasn't been fixed. We moved out. We moved out of here for three weeks so that they could fix the air conditioning. And it's a bit chilly in here, isn't it? Anyway, but we're sitting down. We're in chairs. It's all comfortable, right? You've come down on a nice train.

You know, you walked through London, but you didn't have to. I didn't have to. I chose to. Our lives are so comfortable. But sometimes getting out of that and stripping it back and getting uncomfortable is the best thing for us. And you really realise that very strongly, I think, when you're on a... Actually, it doesn't have to be, you know, a hundred mile run. Actually, it can be any run.

It can even be on a treadmill. But I think that the experience is heightened if you're outside because you you you you experience as well what the um the japanese i think call it nature bathing yeah forest bathing i think they call it yeah um where you it gets prescribed yeah absolutely and well that's just go and go into nature for me that's one of the benefits of parkrun actually you know and parkrun is for, it's so much more than the run. And we'll come on to Parkrun, because I think Parkrun is really important to talk about. In fact, that's how we first got connected, is to come on your Parkrun podcast.

And we're both big fans of Parkrun. Something that really strikes me, Vassos, is that you say it's hardwired into our DNA. You know, we've always run. And there's something in that, isn't it? In this technological era that we're living in where everything is so comfortable, ultimately running is still the same. You put on a pair of shoes and, you know, and you're out. There's very low barriers to actually running. And I'm wondering, is there something about the the beautiful simplicity in running

absolutely you know and it's so well first of all on a practical level my daughter emily she's 14 she's great she loves rowing um she rose at um somewhere called molsey which is a non-tidal part of the thames but where we live in barns very close to another very convenient part of the Thames, it takes a while to get to. So she will, you know, she will get out of the front door, take a bus and a train and then another train and then walk to her rowing club. And by the time she's on the water doing exercise,

I could have left the house, done an eight mile run, be home and showered. You know, so on a practical level, you know, she has to jump through a lot of hoops before she gets to her exercise. But mind you, she loves it and she wouldn't swap it for the world. And I love what rowing is doing for her. So no, nothing against rowing or, you know, triathlons. I love triathlons. I love, you know, we mentioned Chrissie, but, you know, I know the Brownlee brothers and their ace and Vicky Holland, who's just won the world championship.

But I turn up at triathlons and without fail, I will have forgotten something. Even if it's... Equipment, something that you... Goggles, wetsuit, my key to take the D-lock off my bike. Yes. It's just... Just faff. It's just faff.

And some people love that, don't get me wrong. You know, some people love all the equipment and that stuff. But just on a practical level, you have to put a pair of shoes on and back in the day, not even that,

and go for a run. And it's just, it's there, it's outside your front door. I've got to say, that's what I found because I, you know,

I did a bit of running at school, but then I wouldn't say I was a, you know, I ran through my 20s or 30s. I didn't really do that. I was sporty. I liked playing squash. I liked going to the gym. I generally keep fit.

But I think there's something about being a father, having a busy job. Like many people, everyone's busy these days. And the fact that life's pretty unpredictable. I don't know when the kids are going to need this or that, or when I'm going to be, you know, I don't live in London, when I'm going to be down in London. I feel, you know, you've seen me, I've come in my bag. So I'm in London for three days now. And the one thing I will bring with me is my running shoes and a t-shirt and some shorts, because I know that no matter what the weather is in the morning, I'll just get up and go for a

little run. And sometimes it's a 10 minute run. Sometimes it's literally just 10 minutes to get a bit of fresh air in the morning. And I love that about running. And, you know, as I said on the Parkrun podcast, what got me into it really was my son noticed this guy in our local park, just finishing this sort of organized run event a few years back. And he asked me what it is. I said, don't know. And we went and asked him and he said, oh, it's a single park run. And literally since then, I've been taking him every Sunday and now my daughter on this sort of on the junior park run. And I started doing the 5k on a Saturday

with my son. And it's just the most incredible experience because he loves it as well. And I started doing the 5K on a Saturday with my son. And it's just the most incredible experience because he loves it as well. And I agree. I think it is hardwired into us because you feel free. Well, you're doing it. I mean, again, nothing against people who like running on treadmills, but honestly, try it outside, especially if it's not horrible weather. Yeah. Because it's another level.

It's another level of, you know, you're outside, you're doing what we're meant to do. And on that practical level, it's another level. It's another level of you're outside, you're doing what we're meant to do. And on that practical level, it's just easy. You're just running. And it is. What is it? Maybe, I think it's Leonardo da Vinci. I might be wrong about this.

I'm often wrong about stuff like this. I'm almost certainly wrong about this, but just in case I'm right, I think simplicity really is key. And, you know, I'm a GP, so I'm often seeing patients who, the idea of listening to you talk about a hundred mile race, it probably doesn't, I'm guessing on some level, it won't connect with them in the sense that... It won't. People just go, you know, I don't like driving a hundred miles. Forget, you know, the running one is for loot.

I absolutely get that yeah so i guess what i'd love to do is try and in some ways bring it back to you know your your journey your story where you were you know you're a busy guy you're having a career in media you know you know things are going on and before you know it you've got a little bit of a roll of fat on your belly. And I'm sure many people listening to this right now will connect with that. And I guess, what would you say to those people that say, I'm never going to do an ultra event? I'm pleased you asked because I get caught up in myself because I love these long distance races so much. And because for me the journey was you know every step was a small step I didn't just choose to become an ultra runner and people who who hear me sometimes on the radio to breakfast show think well you know but you're

the guy that runs 100 miles and yes I am now I'm doing it again next week but you know but i really wasn't always and i'm absolutely evangelical that you a it doesn't matter how far and b it doesn't matter how fast but it does matter that you just give running a try however unfit you are however bad at it you think you might be however overweight you might be however worried you are that the other people will look at you and judge you when you go running none of that actually matters when you're out running park run is a great place to start because there are you know i mentioned that there are on the start line of an endurance race they'll be kind of all shapes and sizes and everyone's pleased to see you times that by a hundred at every single park around the UK

on nine o'clock on a Saturday morning you won't feel out of place but yes it's the small steps it's just getting a little bit outside your comfort zone and you honestly so if you're if you're listening to this and thinking running's just not for me maybe yeah you're the guy on radio 2 who keeps on talking about these stupid distances you run yes obviously running's for you but it's not for me please i would say just give it a go don't feel like you have to actually run much yeah when you first start walk and maybe take 10 running paces during your walk and next time make it 12 but every time you go out and you come back through your front door you will not regret having been out and you will think slightly better about yourself and you'll you know you'll sort of give

yourself a metaphorical pat on the back for having even done it and then just see where the journey takes you it took me to sparta frankly and that's your journey right it may not be someone else's journey it's it's not very many people's journey, to be honest, that it took me to Sparta. But I think the reason I'm, you know, I'm like a born-again runner, you know, like I'm evangelical about it because I wasn't.

We ask people during the Olympics, I remember Chris and I, we were broadcasting from, not from here, from a shipping container on site at London 2012. And all the medalists would be brought to us in this rather kind of forced way that they call it managing victory. Anyway, the medalists would be brought to us. And Chris asked, I think it was Jess, Jess Ennis-Hill, what's it like being so fit?

She said, you know what? I don't know because I've always been sporty. I've always done sports. I've always done sports. So this is just me. Well, I do know what it's like to smoke and eat crap and drink too much and do all sorts of other things that are just not good for you. And I also know what it's like to be fit and relatively fit and every stage along the way.

And it's just wonderful. So however unfit you are, it doesn't matter. Get a bit fitter. You feel better about yourself. You feel better physically and you feel a lot better mentally. So, you know, to answer your question about,

you know, it's the journey. Yes. It doesn't matter where you are on the journey. It doesn't matter where the journey is going to, but just get on it because you really, I promise you, I honestly, you can see my kind of, again, my body language. I honestly promise anyone who's listening, try it.

Just, you will not regret it. Yeah. Well, I totally agree, Vassilson. You say, you know, you know what it's like to feel better. You know, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More for a reason because, you know, I genuinely feel that so many people, and I want to know how you feel about this now, but, you know, are not getting the most out of their life because they're just not feeling great. And, you know, are you able to articulate what are those benefits? What are those non-running benefits that running has given to you? How does that

affect your day-to-day life? Well, running is, and having written kind of two books about it, basically, I interviewed a lot of people about it. I realised that it ticks a lot of boxes and it doesn't tick every box for everybody. I think it might tick every box for me, to be honest. But so some people see it as like a form of therapy and you can absolutely see why it is. And it's not that you're um actively working through your problems like you would on a on a therapist's couch it's

that your brain seems to do a sort of a control or delete and a kind of refresh and you just you know you you you're just you're you're better after a run it gives you some some va va voom i work on a breakfast show you know your four pillars the sleep one i have issues with yeah but and often i can mean to talk about a mid-afternoon lull when you wake up in the four hour but you know an hour of sleep or an hour's run i feel better after an hour's run much more so than i do after an hour's sleep. Wow. The year, so working through a problem, I've got to write a speech that I'm a bit nervous about for a

couple of weeks' time, and I went for a run, and I wasn't specifically thinking about what to write, but I came back and I thought, and it's all about how to start these things, all about how to start. I thought, okay, that's the way in. That's what I'll tell them. And I thought, why didn't I think of that? But you know what's all about how to start these things all about how to start okay that's the way in that's what i'll tell them and i thought yeah why didn't i think of that but you know what's fascinating about that you know this is something i've been writing about recently for in for my

book that comes out in a few months the stress solution basically that when you're not focusing on a task so you're not here you know you're not going through your your your sheet or who you've got to interview or what the sports news is right when you're not focused on a task when you're sort of switching off a part of your brain called the dmn the default mode network right goes into overdrive so when you're out for a run that part of your brain is going into overdrive and that's a creative part of your brain which is why so many people get amazing ideas when they've switched off. And I think there's a lesson for everyone in that in terms of, yes, of course, you get it with running,

but anyone can get it actually in, you know, sometimes these days people are so pressured, they just stick there, they're at their desk, they keep trying to plough through the problem, but just getting outside for a walk for 15 minutes or going for a quick run, you know, you fire up a different part of your brain, which will try and solve problems for you i know absolutely absolutely so there's that you know there's that kind of huge box that gets ticked by running for a lot of people and it kind of

can't fail to really because as you say it's scientifically proven that that's what happens have you ever got injured and the reason i'm asking that is um after my podcast with rich a few people were asking me on social media. They were saying, you know, it all sounds great. I want to. But, you know, every time I go running, I get injured. You know, you obviously speak about running a lot. Has that question come up a lot to you? And what is your answer to that? Yeah, no, listen, we get injured, runners get injured.

My answer, my principal answer and the and the the the kind of my well my actual principle the the way i kind of live my running life is that we were born to run if i was you know living five million years ago i would have to run to survive i would have to um chase down this whatever whatever whatever animal it was across the african plain and i wouldn't let a knee niggle stop me because otherwise you know i would not survive so i sort of think that although this isn't i don't know if i can give this as advice i sort of think yeah i sort of think slash, that our bodies find a way. I have an existing knee injury that my body finds a way around,

even when I'm running silly distances. And when you start running, especially if you've never done much running before, like me, probably your gait will be a little bit wrong you will probably have you know your body won't act like it should do you know well i don't look like mo farah no when i run and very few people do but if i did i definitely wouldn't get injured because he he has almost the perfect gait honestly look at him it's amazing but you know you don't need necessarily to there's a there's a a marathon runner an Ethiopian called Jep 2 yeah who runs like an octopus her ankles flay out to

the side and she's won the I think got the silver medal in London 2012 she then came back next year and won the London marathon she's pretty good and she looks terrible. And she looks like she should have all sorts of problems with her. That's quite inspiring to hear, I think, because you're right. You watch Mo Farah, there's a real elegance with the way he runs, there's real sort of majesticness. And, you know, if that's what we're aspiring to, it may be off-putting for some of us. So it's quite good to see that.

I'll pull up a video and make sure that we link to that in the show notes. And the show notes page is going to be drchastity.com forward slash Vassos. So everything Vassos and I have spoken about, plus links to various things, including both of Vassos' books, is going to be on the show notes page. Vassos, in fact, on your books, what is the difference between the two books and what can people expect if they choose to buy them? Well, the first is is very much kind of my journey into running um but into spur so it's 26.2 chapters obviously love it but each one ends with um well there's steve cram and paula radcliffe and the Brownlee brothers and Chrissie Wellington, who we've talked about, and lots of kind of inspirational athletes and actually some kind of famous people who are runners.

How they got into running, what running means to them, because, you know, people don't often ask Paula about, you know, when did you first run? And Crammy talking about kind of running around the block with his kids when he was a kid with his friends in Sunderland. So there's that, which I find those much more interesting than my own journey. And it's a sort of celebration, not a sort of celebration, a huge, great, big celebration of what we've been talking about, of running and how it ticks different boxes for different people and there's also one of my favorite stories actually is a guy who i was running home from work from here and i was so i was on for a pb i think and i was pegging it down or up hammersmith bridge and it's got these two buttresses hammersmith bridge and i come around the corner and there's another guy pegging it the other way and we clash heads really badly and we both sort of get knocked a little bit silly and we're both on the floor and this guy has he's got tattoos all

up his neck on his face he's got biceps the size of most oak trees definitely bigger than my thighs and he starts going for me. And I petrified. But hang on, hang on. That's nobody's fault. And he sort of stopped and went, you're right, sorry. And we sat down. I hadn't noticed them before.

There's these wooden benches in the bridge. And we sat down. We looked at the river. And we were both feeling a little bit dizzy. And we started chatting. And I said, look, I probably should have been looking where I was going. I was on for a PB. And he goes, oh, do you know what?

I was doing the same. I was doing a PB round from Putney Bridge down to here. And then I said, how? He didn't look like a runner. He didn't have proper running shoes, really. He didn't have running shorts. I said, how come you're? I was writing the book.

So it was part of my. In my zone, talking about how people got into running. And his story was, you know, he was, I was at school. I was one of the problem kids.

I was one fight too many. I was excluded from school. And there's only one place I was heading. And that's prison. You know, he was brought up on that estate, just north of Hammersmith Bridge. He said,

you know, there was shouting, gunshots occasionally. He said he was, you know, there was shouting, gunshots occasionally. He said he was, you know, he was just going on a downward spiral. And his uncle said to him, just try and go for a run. And he doesn't know why he did that first time. And he wasn't fit, but he did. And he went for a run in jeans, he said.

And by this time, by the way've i've got my iphone out and i'm recording him with his permission and he he told me his name but then he told me that's not my real name so call me what you like i called i called him in the book i called him what what he said to call him but um and he said and and then that was the first time i got back from the run and i and i had done something that I could demonstrably be. He didn't use the word demonstrably, obviously. He said I was just proud of myself for the first time. For a little bit.

A little bit proud. And then I thought I want a bit more of that and a bit more of that. And now I run. And now I'm trying to get a job. I'm sorting myself out. I'm down at the job centre. I'm not on that downward spiral. It stopped a vicious circle becoming worse and started a virtuous circle,

which he was on the foothills of, which I love that story. It's incredible, isn't it? It's just incredible. It's building up his self-esteem. I think it goes back to what you said maybe 10, 15 minutes ago, which is start small because just push yourself a little bit outside your comfort zone.

And when you do that, you feel that bit of self-worth that, oh, I've done that. I've managed to do that and it feels good. And not just in running, actually. A wise man, a wise-ish man. Actually, the man who usually sits in this chair, Chris. Chris said to me quite soon after i first met him he said just try and get outside your comfort zone a little bit or a lot every day if you can because your comfort zone gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and

you become a better and better and better and better person so not just in running but any any way you can find to get outside your comfort zone i was going to say no to that speech i've got to give in a couple of weeks because it's kind of terrifying. I won't say what it is because I'm too scared, but I didn't say no. And the reason I didn't say no is because it's way outside my comfort zone. But then if I do it and I don't make a complete hash of it,

then suddenly my comfort zone encompasses that as well. Yeah. And it works for running too, but it kind of works. It works for anything. I totally agree. And I, you you know i've been reflecting on my life recently and i kind of i've seen that i generally have always been attracted to pushing myself outside my comfort zone because i always find that you kind of find out who you are there and you sort of grow and i know some people like to do that more than others. I've got a natural tendency

to go there. I remember when I filmed my first BBC One series of Doctor in the House. And, you know, it was pretty intense. I had some very sick people to try and get better with, you know, a camera watching my every move. And for people who don't know telly, you know, you might think that, you know you'd be doing it and the camera's in the in the in the background and you know that telly's not that intrusive telly is massively intrusive you have to do loads of stuff again and again and again just for the cameras could you just do that again i mean you know it's it's not like it's not like life at all but you have to try and make it like life yeah exactly and it's i remember

i think i just sort of got over and i thought okay yeah fine that worked really well really enjoyed that and and i remember a week before the first program aired this is the first time i've ever been i would have at the time been on bbc one and on a on a prime time show um i was like okay this is you know it's getting a little bit scary now. And my best mate Luke said to me, he's like, you know, in about a week's time, 5 million people are going to watch you do your job. 5 million people don't come into my office and watch me do my job. And I thought, yeah, I was feeling pretty scared before. Now I'm pretty nervous about this. But I think that's some great advice, Vassilis. And I think although this is a little bit about

running, it goes far beyond running, doesn't it? Before we wrap this up, I just want to touch on one thing, which is technology. So many of us, myself included, are pretty obsessed with tech and all the incredible benefits that it brings. And a lot of people now are going running with their garments or their Apple Watches or their fitbits and i became very obsessed with the time on the watch and what distance have they done what was their heart rate and all this kind of stuff and i get that i think i read something with you that you were talking about that you used to use a garment quite a lot and you'd be looking at everything but then you i think the quote was i run best when i'm just running for the fun of it yeah and i think there was something magical in that i

wonder if you could just elaborate um again it was a sort of it was a um light bulb moment when i was i was at wimbledon um and i was interviewing serena williams you know the in my opinion the greatest tennis player her or roger yeah her or roger anyway certainly the greatest tennis player. Her or Roger. Yeah, her or Roger. Anyway, certainly the greatest female tennis player I will ever interview. And she just won a match at Wimbledon and I'm interviewing her and she's telling me about some,

or she told me off there about some new, it's a sort of a Fitbit. It was one of the earliest Fitbits. And back in the day, something that could tell you, you could track you and tell you your heart rate and stuff that you wore on your wrist.

It was like, it was, and I was thinking, oh, maybe I should get me one of those. And then I realized that she'd stopped talking quite a long time ago. And I was still thinking, now, could I,

I mean, it's quite expensive, but so if I would be able to not tell my wife, but then is that actually, and she'd stopped talking and she's trying to wait for me to interview her. And then I panicked and asked the same question. I just asked her again. And yes, the interview didn't go well.

But I realised at that sort of point that I was too obsessed with the tech. And every run would start with me outside my front door, kind of waving this kind of an early Garmin at the skies waiting for it to pick up a signal and and i would berate myself if i wasn't going a certain pace and you know whether um what you know i i sort of i'm slightly embarrassed that the sort of thoughts that i had during those early runs and also whether i had the right socks and the right base layer and the right this and the right that now my shorts light enough and it just got me away from the the reason i run which is we talked about the simplicity you know that we talked about the joy, the simple joy, actually, of running the childlike joy of running when you could be walking.

You know, I loved all that. And so now, I mean, I do have a Garmin on my watch now, but I won't turn it on when I run home. And I don't want to know, because I know that if I hit Hyde Park or a certain lamppost at a certain time, then I'm doing well or I'm not doing well. But actually just running on feel. Running on feel. Yeah. To get you more in tune with our bodies again. Exactly.

Because that's the point of this. That's the point, yeah. Do get a bit uncomfortable. I mean, people think you love running. So you go for a run and you've got a big smile on your face every time. love running so you go for a run and you've got a big smile on your face every time and and that the you know that that the act of running brings you actual joy when you're doing it and sometimes i guess it does but more often than not it's not easy i mean it's much easier to sit on a tube or get a taxi home and sit down and do my emails than than to run the seven miles home but but i do it and afterwards i never regret it

so um so yes it's just it's joyful it's simple and it's much more pleasurable i think without all the tech without getting too worried about the tech i think that's a great message for people you obviously use the tech if you want to if it helps get you going you know track your distances fine but i also get that there's something about getting back in touch with our bodies and nature. Yeah. Well, there's a sort of expression that several friends of mine at running club use, which is it didn't happen if it didn't happen on Strava. I have the slight opposite attitude to that, an opinion.

I think if it didn't happen on Strava, so much the better. Yeah. attitude to that an opinion i think if it didn't happen on strava so much the better yeah well i think that's the whole thing about intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation you know you're doing it just for the love or you're doing it so you can post about it and get all that external validation which is something that which is fine too which is fine as well exactly it's not about either one necessarily well i, I prefer the intrinsic. Internal mode, yeah. But if it takes your mate saying, well done, to get you running,

then fine, go for that. Exactly. Well, Vassar Stoic, that's been fabulous chat. I know you've had quite a busy morning already, even though we're only at 10.30. Did you run here this morning? Oh, I did, yeah. You did?

I did run here this morning. So what time did you start running this morning? I would have started running at about 4.40, I guess here this morning? I did, yeah. You did? So what time did you start running this morning? I would have started running at about 4.40, I guess. 4.40, wow. Yeah. What's that run like in January? I don't, yes, A, good question, and B, I don't necessarily like running straight out of bed, especially early in the morning slash the middle of the night, which is what most people call 4.40.

It takes me a mile or two for the legs to get going and they're really slow. And I just, I find, I mean, talking about loving running, that was a real effort. And it always is when I run in. Running home's fine. But running in is always an effort. But I did run in. I will be running home. I've got some filming to do this afternoon, which is also running related. Oh, wow. A lot of running today. Yeah, wow. So I'll have a lot of running today. I'll have clocked up a lot of kind of steps on the pedometer today. Well, just to finish it off then, Vasos, my goal with this podcast is to inspire people

to inspire them so that they know that they can be the architects of their own health, basically, that they're in control of much of what happens to them. And I wonder if you could leave the listeners with some, some simple tips. I normally ask for four, but you know, no pressure if you can't think of four, but just some simple tips related to what we've spoken about that people now can actually take on and hopefully implement in their own life. Well, I mean, I guess my tips would all be to get into running because that's what kind of that's what I'm known for. By the way, that's a that's a lovely that's a lovely thing to try and help people to to empower, you know, to empower them to kind of get in. Because it's so difficult, isn't it? You hear people talk about running. You hear people like me talk about running.

And I almost want to kind of to rewind my own running ability because I started at zero. I started at minus zero. And I don't want people to think, well, yeah, but that's Vassos. Yeah. Because it wasn't the old Vassos, wasn't it? It really wasn't. You know, I don't think of myself as a runner yet, really. So I suppose, okay, I'll think of four pieces of advice.

First of all, just start. Just start with anything. You you know it could be a walk you don't need running shoes you don't need equipment just start and see where it takes you because that is i think absolutely key and like i said before it took me to this 150 mile race in sparta and i loved every moment of the journey along the way, but it's about the journey. It's not about the destination. That's something else you learn about running.

It's about being in the moment. And it's very mindful that actually. So there's another kind of little win that you're getting when you run. So my four tips would be, well, I'll give you three under the umbrella of just start yeah um first of all run walk if you think running's not for me then don't run just walk and then just do a few extra running steps every time you go out and you'll be surprised how quickly it builds up number two always remember

that it's most hard at the start when you start running it's least comfortable when you first start doing it obviously and kind of don't think oh look i've tried it a couple of times now my ankle hurts it's not for me just try and keep going with it because it's at its worst at its earliest and number three try and do it with a smile on your face. Don't think you have to do it at a certain pace or go a certain, you know, distance. If you can't do 5k, don't do 5k, don't do 1k. Just do it with some joy because you're doing something for yourself. And so kind of give yourself that credit. And honestly, if you do those three things, I can't see how you can fail.

That's brilliant. Great tips for people. Thank you for joining me today. And hopefully we will get to go on a run together at some point in the near future. Well, you're in London. Yeah, I'll hold you to that. That concludes today's episode of the Feel Better Live More podcast.

I hope that you have found the conversation enjoyable and that it has inspired you to increase the amount of movement that you are getting in your everyday life. If you are already pretty active yourself, please do consider sharing this episode with someone close to you who you feel may benefit from hearing Vassos' story. Now, if you did enjoy this episode, I would recommend that you check out one of the earlier episodes of this podcast, episode 15, Treating

Depression and Anxiety with Dynamic Running Therapy. You can access that if you go to drchastity.com forward slash William Pullen. Now, don't forget full show notes of this episode are available on my website at drchastity.com forward slash Vassos. If you go to this page, you can find lots of links to everything that we discussed on the show, including articles and videos. And don't forget to pay a visit to today's sponsors, Athletic Greens. Remember, there is a special offer with your first order worth £70, which you can access at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. As always, it would be great if you could help me to spread awareness about this podcast. The best ways are to leave a review on whichever platform you are listening to this on, such as Apple or Acast. You can even take a

screenshot on your phone right now and share on your social media channels or the good old fashion way by simply letting your friends know about the podcast. For those of you new to the podcast, my first book, The Four Pillar Plan is available to buy all over the world. So do consider picking up a copy. just be aware that in America and Canada it has been released with a different title how to make disease disappear just over two months now I am really excited that my second book the stress solution comes out you can pre-order that book right now to ensure that you get your hands on a copy the day that it is released. That's it for today on the Feel Better Live More podcast. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure you press subscribe

and I will be back next week for the latest conversation. Remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time. Thank you.