Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #32 The Science of Happiness with Meik Wiking

Episode Date: October 17, 2018

“Globally we are richer than ever before, but we fail to convert that wealth into wellbeing”   Meik Wiking, author of best-selling book Hygge, understands happiness better than anyone. In his role as Founder and CEO of the world's only Happiness Research Institute, he has travelled the globe interviewing the world's happiest people to discover the key components of happiness. In this episode, we explore the fascinating findings of his research and uncover what we can learn from the world’s happiest countries.  We talk about the impact of stress on our happiness and how although we are richer than ever before, we have failed to convert that wealth into wellbeing. It seems that despite all our cultural differences, we as a human race have a very similar view of happiness across the world. Meik and I discuss how one of the most important components of a happy life is meaning and purpose and how this has been gradually eroded from our lives.  This is an eye-opening and fascinating conversation – I hope you enjoy it. My upcoming book, ‘The Stress Solution’ covers meaning and purpose in great detail.  You can pre-order it on Amazon. Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/happy Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A lot of people talk about the pursuit of happiness, but I think in many ways it's better to talk about the happiness of pursuit and seeing happiness as a byproduct of something else, a meaningful life, for instance, or a greater purpose. Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier,

we are happier, because when we feel better, we live more. Hello and welcome to another episode of my Feel Better, Live More podcast. My name is Rangan Chastji and I am your host. Today's conversation is all about happiness. What it is, is it a realistic goal and how do we get more off it? My guest today is the one and only Mike Viking. Mike has written multiple best-selling books on the topic including The Little Book of Hugger. Mike understands happiness better than anyone. He is the founder and the CEO of the world's only happiness research institute and has traveled the globe interviewing the world's happiest people to discover the key components of happiness. Now, before we get on to today's conversation, I have just a couple of things to

let you know about. Firstly, I'm going to be releasing some live dates very soon where you can see me speak in person. And I've also got some really exciting news about the podcast to share with you. Now, I'm going to be releasing all of this information to subscribers of my free weekly email newsletter. You can sign up for free at drchastji.com forward slash subscription, where you will also receive a free six-part video series from myself on how to get more energy. So if this is of interest to you, please do check it out at drchastji.com forward slash subscription. Secondly, just a quick note to let you know about my ongoing partnership with Athletic Greens, who are the sponsors of today's show. In order to support the time and expense it takes to put these podcasts out, I've taken on a sponsor whose vision is very well aligned with my own to help people feel better so that they can get more out of life. Now, as you well know, I believe that the right nutrition

is an essential ingredient to having a healthy and happy life. There is no question that I prefer people to get their nutrition from eating food, but these days for some of us that can be a little bit challenging. You might be busy, on the go, rushing around, and even with the best intentions, on some days it can be a little bit tricky to cook a wholesome, nutritious meal. If you feel that this applies to you and you want to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend Athletic Greens.

It is a super tasty whole food greens powder that you can take each morning. And unlike most green supplements that I've tried in the past it tastes fantastic. It's actually so much more than just a green supplement because it contains vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, digestive enzymes and adaptogens. Many of you have already now tried the products and let me know that your energy has improved significantly. I personally love the company Ethos and I have to say that it is one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that I have come across. For listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you'll be able to access a special offer where you get a free travel pack

box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around £70 with your first order. So do go and check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation. So I'm actually sitting in the seventh floor of Penguin in London with another author who is also published by Penguin Life. It is Mr. Mike Viking. Mike, welcome to my podcast. Thank you very much. Mike, it's hard to know where to start, really.

But I think the best place is to talk about your job title. You are, I believe, the CEO of the Happiness Research Institute in Copenhagen. Right, that's correct. Well, I think that sounds like the best job title in the world. So why don't you tell me more? Yeah, so actually, I think it's the second best job title in the world. I think the best job title in the world goes to Uhud Al-Rumi. She's the Minister of State for Happiness in the United Arab Emirates. So she and I, we battle a little over who has the coolest job title, and I think she wins.

I'm going to give it to you, actually. I'm going to give it to you. Thanks. So the Happiness Research Institute, we are a think tank based in Copenhagen that basically tries to solve three questions. So we try first to understand how we can measure the good life or happiness. Secondly, why some people are happier than others. And thirdly, we try to explore how we can improve quality of life for people. So those are the three questions we try

to shed some light on with studies and experiments within happiness and well-being. So when did this institute come about? I mean, I'm really interested in, have we as human beings been happier in the past than we are today? And is there, is there a real need in the 21st century to be studying happiness? So there's a lot of questions in that one. Yeah, sorry. I called it one question, but it's quite a lot. So, so it came about, I started the Institute back in 2013. So I was working for another think tank in Copenhagen on sustainability, but noticed how much was happening globally with happiness research and happiness and politics.

In 2012, you had the United Nations, they passed the UN Happiness Resolution. So asking all the countries of the world to focus more on happiness and see what they can do to improve quality of life. You had different governments starting to measure well-being as a new measure of progress. David Cameron started it here in the UK, also around the same time. And I thought there's a lot happening with trying to understand how we can create good conditions for good lives. There's a lot happening with happiness rankings, the world happiness report came out and Denmark was at the top of that list. And I thought there really should be somebody in Denmark trying to explore this and create a center of knowledge

around this field in Denmark. And then I thought, maybe I should do that. Yeah, wow. So I started out now six years ago with what I thought was a good idea and a bad laptop. Now we're a small company of eight people exploring these questions. But the other dimension of your question, have we been happier or less happy than we are now? It depends where you look um which country you look if you take a country like the u.s um that has obviously increased their gdp levels their wealth levels over the past decades but they have also seen a large drop

in happiness actually um in the last Happiness Report, they dropped four places. But we also see other places in the world increasing their happiness levels. Greece have increased since the financial crisis and other countries around the world as well. So it depends where we look. Yeah, I mean, I can see that. And as you were sort of describing that, I thought back to this film called Happy that I've seen maybe a few years back. I don't know if you've seen it at all. Is it the guy that travels around the world? He's a happiness researcher? Yeah, there's a guy. The opening shot is this guy, Elf, a rickshaw puller in Calcutta in India. And they start off by showing how he lives in,

you know, in a slum. He's, you know, barely got a roof over his head, but he lives with his wife and his two kids. And he goes off in the morning to pull rickshaws all day. And this is the opening of the film. And then he comes back saying often, you know, he gets wet in the monsoons, but he doesn't mind because he's going to get dry very soon afterwards. Often his customers are abusive to him, but he does what he has to do. And he says when he gets home at the end of the day, he says, I'm the happiest man in the world. His two kids greet him.

They give him a hug. He says, we've got enough to eat. You know, yeah, sure. the rain gets into our house sometimes. But the film then delivers this amazing statistic saying that Manoj Singh, who is this chap, is as happy as the average American. And I think they use that to demonstrate the concept that once you have, you know, a certain level of income, then more money does not equate to happiness. That's one of the messages I remember from the film. I don't know if you would agree with any of that. And I guess that then leads to the question, does money buy you happiness?

I'm going to say no, but money matters for happiness. But I think what you can buy with money is an insurance against unhappiness from some angles. Obviously, if you are without money, that's a cause of stress and worry and anxiety. but as you correctly put it once we reach a certain threshold for income additional 100 pounds per month is not going to impact how we feel so we see with with money as with everything else the more we have of something the less pleasure we get from an additional unit of it first piece of cake great piece number five not so good. Same with wine, right? Yes. I think, well, a lot of people would say that it is the same. Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, I guess it depends who you ask. But I think there's something nice about

that concept that a little bit of something is good, but too much can start to become problematic. And I think what I remember, I don't remember the exact figure from the film. I think the science that they showed don't remember the exact figure from the film. I think the science that they showed, and again, this may be different science than what your institute has conducted, was sort of demonstrating that once you've hit that, your basic needs are taken care of. More money did not equate to more happiness.

Yes. So I think that the number I've seen for the US is $75, 000 per year but uh there's there's several things to say about this um one thing is that yes we care about the absolute income so how much are we able to consume or what can we consume with the money we have but we can also see there is a dimension called relative income. So we are also interested in how much money do we make compared to everybody else. So I can't remember who said it, but I think it's put quite truthfully in terms of what we see in happiness research that a happy man is a man that makes 100 pounds more than his wife or sister's husband. Because we care about our position in the social

hierarchy. So if you own three rickshaws instead of one, then you are a wealthy man on the block. But if you're driving a Toyota and your neighbor is driving Ferraris and Porsches, then that puts it into perspective. Yeah, that's fascinating. I always think then on an evolutionary level, how maybe that has in some way served us in the past to be, you know, king of the hill as it were, or maybe striving for that. Yet, is that something in today's world where, you know, frankly, I guess social media would play a role here in terms of you can always see on social media that someone is doing something better than you or more exciting

than what you perceive your life to be. So does that whole desire to, you know, have a relative level of success, you know, have a high degree of success relative to your peer group, I guess that in some ways can be hugely problematic in today's world. Yeah, that's what we see also in the data that social media is this constant bombardment of great news that happens for everybody else. And, you know, when we log on to Facebook, people are getting married and running Ironmans and going on these amazing vacations and usually on the same day. And it's, it's, it's a tough background to compare your life against.

Um, um, and there's also, there's always been social comparisons, but I think now there is a channel where our perception of what a normal life looks like gets distorted because of, as you say, what is presented on social media is only the very best shots of the 10% who are actually doing something interesting that night. Yeah, it's a great point. It's something I think about a lot, particularly, you know, as a father of two young kids. I do worry sometimes. I mean, what is that going to do to their mental health as they, you know, as they get older and presumably start to engage in technology? At the moment, I guess I can sort of control how much they engage, control stroke limit.

Good luck with that. Yeah, exactly. And I'm well aware at some point that's going to change. It's already starting to change actually. But I guess, Mike, one thing I'm interested in is, you know, how would you define happiness? an umbrella term. So you have one idea of what happiness is, and I might have another one. So what we need to do with these umbrella terms is we need to look at the different elements they consist of. Also, if we talked about, for example, the British economy, we could break that down into the price of the pound, but unemployment, growth, GDP levels, and so on. And that gives us a language to talk about how is the economy doing. So that's also what we need to do with happiness or quality of life or well-being.

We need to break it down and look at different dimensions of it. And we usually follow the guidelines that have been produced by OECD on measuring subjective well-being. And they recommend that scientists look at three dimensions. So the first one is sort of an overall life satisfaction. So in surveys, we would ask people to take a step back and evaluate their lives so you can get them to imagine the worst possible life they could live

and the best possible life they could live on a scale from 0 to 10 and then ask them, where do you feel you stand right now? so that is the metric that is usually fed into the world happiness report i think the average for the uk is around 6.5 in denmark it's 7.5 so so where does the uk rank then on that sort of usually global scale yeah so usually in the top 20. But that's one dimension of happiness. So it's sort of an overall satisfaction with our lives as a whole. That's different to the second dimension, which is what kind of emotions do we experience on a daily basis?

So if you take yesterday, did you feel worried, happy, sad, lonely, angry, frustrated, stressed? And of course that is much more volatile volatile we can see there's a weekend effect when it comes to what kind of emotions we experience and it's of course also linked with life satisfaction because if you have a lot of every days with a lot of positive emotions you probably also are more satisfied with your life and there's actually some super interesting studies in the uk in that domain a really cool study under london school of economics called mappiness where people i think almost 70 000 people now have downloaded an app and are asked one to three times a day how happy they are

and where they are who are they with and what are they doing. And then they can see, you know, when people are in the countryside, they're happier. When people, the happiest day throughout the year is Christmas Day. The unhappiest day 2016 was when Trump was elected. People are unhappiest when they're ill in bed. The second unhappiest activity is being at work. when they're ill in bed. The second unhappiest activity is being at work. So of course, that's an interesting study that also shows that our sort of daily mood

gets impacted by political events and so on. So that's the second dimension. And then the third dimension, which is I think actually the one we know least about, is a dimension that builds on aristotle's perception of happiness so he was i think perhaps the first happiness researcher wrote extensively about happiness and to him the good life was the meaningful life so in in that dimension we explore whether people have a sense of purpose or meaning uh in life yeah that last point was something I was going to ask you about, actually,

which is basically, when people talk about happiness, there's a lot of people now saying that happiness is the wrong goal we should be looking for. We should be looking for a meaningful life or a purposeful life. And I guess that really ties into that third metric you're talking about, which is that is a crucial part of happiness because some people I've spoken to get put off with the word happiness because they feel that there's this real push now that we have to be happy and smiley all the time, you know, seven days a week, 24 hours a day. And I think many people feel that that is, know it's an unattainable goal um has that have you come across that sort of viewpoint before in your in your work yeah and uh I mean a lot of

people talk about the pursuit of happiness but I think in in many ways it's better to talk about the happiness of pursuit and seeing happiness as a byproduct of something else, a meaningful life, for instance, or a greater purpose. And I think you're right that a lot of us feel pressure to be happy all the time. And I think us at the Happiness Research Institute actually have a responsibility to say, well, that's not what we necessarily should be striving for. And happiness researchers get angry and frustrated and and lonely and and and

sad too and that's part of the human experience so nobody can be happy all the time what we're interested in is how do we create good conditions for good lives how do we get people to flourish including having purpose and meaning in their lives. But it's great that you're actually measuring that as one of the dimensions. So under, as you say, this umbrella term of happiness, you are measuring different facets of that to come up with this sort of complete picture, which is hugely encouraging for me, Sahar.

I think it's interesting that, you know, hugely encouraging for me to hear. Um, I, yeah, I think it's interesting that, you know, I talk a lot about health and I feel that for me, what I've seen in my practice, seeing patients for, you know, 18 years now or so, I kind of feel that for a lot of people, being healthy is a necessary component. Necessary or a preferential component or ingredient to be happy. You know, the reason I call this podcast Feel Better Live More is I genuinely believe that when people are feeling better in themselves, and my bias is to help people make healthy lifestyle choices so they can feel as good as they can, more energy, they feel good about themselves, high self-worth, self-esteem, physically active, which is good for their mental health, all this kind of stuff. I feel that that

enables them to get more out of life and do more of the things that they want to do. Is that something that you've seen in your research, that health plays a key role in happiness? Yeah, I think, I mean, there's a mountain of evidence that supports what you're saying. And there is a strong link between health and happiness, and it's a link that goes both ways so obviously you know we didn't need big data to tell us that if you become sick then you are less happy sure that goes from you know everywhere around the world um the same things drives happiness and unhappiness and i think that's also to me one of the great takeaways from having studied this and worked with this for six years now,

is that you get to see how similar we are, that we might be British and Danish, but we're first and foremost humans. I mean, you would get less happy if your children are sick. We would both become unhappy if we lost our jobs. So we're not so different, and we don't have such a different view of happiness. A lot of people around the world would you write a unite around what a good life means um so so yes you know our health does affect our happiness but we can also see it the other way around that our happiness affects our health

and there's uh several studies on on this one of them i think think, is a study in the UK, I think by Steptoe and Waddle, where they surveyed 8,000 people in the UK above 52 years, I think between 52 and 79, and surveyed their well-being on the affective dimensions, what kind of emotions did people experience, and then followed them over five years and could see that the happier group had a far lower mortality rate than the unhappier ones. So happiness keeps people healthy, even when they're controlled for health status in the beginning of the study. Wow. Yeah, that's incredible. And guys, don't forget all the things that me and Mike are talking about today. I'm going to link to all of them as well as a lot of Mike's research

and his books and his articles in the show notes page, which is going to be drchastity.com forward slash happy, H-A-P-P-Y. So that study, I'll pull it out and make sure it's on the show notes page for those of you who are interested to actually check it out yourselves.

Mike, when I was doing my research on you and your work, I saw that you have been all around the world and you have spoken to people from different countries, from different cultures, from different socioeconomic groups. And I'm really interested, are there some commonalities between all these different cultures, all these different groups in terms of what makes us happy as human beings? Yes, there is. And I think that to me, that's a report that covers 155 countries, ranging in the top when we look at average happiness levels from Finland, Norway, Denmark, New Zealand, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Canada, and so on,

down to the least happy countries, Central African Republic, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq. And obviously, there are some explanations for why some people are really unhappy in war-torn countries. But if we look broadly across those 155 countries, we can see there are six factors that explain the majority of the variance between those countries. So GDP levels per capita, yes, money does matter because being without money is a cause of unhappiness. We can see that health, so healthy life expectancy, is the second factor.

Third, we see freedom, being able to be the captain on your ship, choosing the destiny that you want, matters equal inheritance rights for men and women, classic freedom rights, freedom of assembly and so on freedom from corruption so do we have a good government do we have a government that ensures that the money that are paid in taxes are actually distributed out to people in terms of quality of life do we have schools do we have hospitals and so on and then it becomes more interesting then it's actually a factor called generosity. So is there a spirit of generosity in society?

Is there a spirit of kindness in society? And then as the last factor, social support. So do we have somebody in our lives we can rely on in times of need? So just those six factors explain the majority of differences in happiness levels among the world's countries. Yeah, so it's not an extensive list. We know there's other factors also within countries that matter. We can see genetics matter. From twin studies, we see that identical twins have fairly similar happiness levels compared to non-identical twins. And of

course, also the behavior you have on a daily basis impact. But from a policy point of view, those are the six factors to focus on. Yeah. I mean, they're so interesting hearing those six factors and how they're pretty common across various populations, various countries, various cultures. I kind of wonder sometimes about happiness. And I think one of the things that you just said about, you know, people having a sense of control over their lives, that's something I see a lot in my practice as a GP. You know, you see lots of patients who in many ways are existing on a treadmill. They're going from day to day. They're not giving their lives much thoughts. They don't

really feel as though they've got a sense of control. All they're trying to do is just get through the day. And I see this in the context of stress as a huge problem. I think it really stresses people out when they feel they've got no control. And I get that can be quite challenging for people, depending on what job they're in. You know, they might have a boss who they can't stand and they might be doing things every day that they don't like. And I'm okay with that. I get that. And so one of the strategies I've come up with to try and help in a very accessible way for my patients is, you know, about doing something that you love. And I see so many of them throughout the whole week, they never do anything that they absolutely love. And I kind of feel that's a really important thing to lower our

stress levels and increase our happiness is, you know, how many times in a week do you do something that you love that you're doing, not because someone else told you to do, but because you want to, whether that's going for a walk in nature, whether that's doing a bit bit of painting whether it's listening to some music mindfully you know not scrolling your phone and your emails at the same time um so you know this is this is something that has played a big part in my thoughts over the last few months because i've tried to create a new framework um in my in my upcoming book the stress solution on how we can get more meaning and purpose in our lives. And one of those components that I talk about is doing something that you love. It can be something so simple. It doesn't have to be a big thing that costs money or anything like that. And I wonder,

is that something you see as being a key component of happiness? Very much so. I mean, it's one of the key pillars when we look at happiness broadly. We can also see when we survey people in terms of job satisfaction, a sense of meaning also comes up in the top of the list often. of one of the people I mentioned in my latest book, the little book of Lücke, who perhaps experienced what you're describing there. And he's a young guy, at least from my perspective. He's in his 20s. So relative.

So relative. I think he's in his late 20s now. And I call him Clark in the book because his identity is a secret uh here in the uk he's known as the free help guy and he had that experience that that that you're describing there every day going on the tube going to oxford circuit station working in marketing and just sort of feeling part of the rat race, feeling like it really didn't matter. There was no sense of purpose.

And then he told me that he, for some reason, decided to quit and give himself six months to find meaning in life and to make his worth and his contribution in more than pounds and pennies. And funny enough, he said the first week he binged watched Breaking Bad. But then for some reason he decided to write online in a forum, is there anybody I can help? I'll do it for free, the free help guy. And that became the

first step in a really interesting journey where he has, he sat next to a guy on planes to help the guy get over his fear of flying. He has tried to find a bone marrow donor for a young girl who is suffering from cancer. He has tried to reunite a father with his son and he's done all these amazing things and and he says that despite of that he feels that the one that have benefited the most from the project is himself because his heart beats in a way that it never has before and and now he wants to make the um and the project that was originally a six months project permanent um and i think that is a testimony in terms of how important meaning and purpose is in terms of just joy and satisfaction with life. It's incredible to hear.

And it's funny, you know, you you you research happiness okay that's what you do you're the ceo of this happiness institute which is incredible my job is to help my patients you know when they're not feeling good they come in to see me and hopefully i can help them to feel better right yeah it's it's it's amazing to me how intertwined our actual roles are and how much overlap there is, because a lot of the time people are coming in. As you say, happiness and health work, it's a two-way street and it works both ways. So often a lack of happiness in someone's life manifests in their health symptom that I see. Right. manifests in their health symptom that I see. And I've realized more and more that actually just, when you look at the big picture, it's not just about suppressing symptoms with pharmaceutical drugs.

And often so much of what we see today in the 21st century is in some way driven by our collective modern lifestyles. And I don't think our jobs are quite as different as they might seem. And you just told the story from your latest book. As part of this new framework I've created to help people find more meaning and purpose, I mentioned doing something you love. Another part of that framework is engagement, doing something that engages with others, doing something for other people and how that actually is not only for other people, it's actually very good for our own

sense of wellbeing as well. And it just amazes me that I'm a GP, you're a happiness researcher, yet our worlds are in some ways starting to overlap. It is very much. You know, on the topic of your books, because I think it is worth mentioning, you've had some fantastic books out that are, you know, clearly doing very, very well. Your first book, and I'm not going to get the pronunciation right, so I'll let you, it's a little book of... Hygge. Hygge. How's that? Little book of Hygge. Right. Well done. Yeah. Which I think, you know, A, it flew off the shelves when it came out. But my recollection of that is that, you know, it was about, I'm not saying the whole book was about this, but what I took from it was how there's real joy to be had in the simple things in life.

to be had in the simple things in life. And, you know, for me, that's one of the messages I took from it that I still hold today. You know, why do you think that book was such a huge success? Have you tapped on something out there that people are missing at the moment? I think there are several reasons. I think right now there is a global search for new ways of doing things. I think there is a global sentiment that a lot of us have become richer without becoming happier. And perhaps a recognition that we've been looking for happiness in the wrong places. I think that's part of it. I think another part was that with Hygge, we essentially provided a word or a language to something that people were already doing. So I've had a lot of letters from readers around the world saying,

I've been having Hygge all my life. I just didn't know there was a word for it. And I think that was another dimension that we helped people appreciate something they were already doing in the first place. And we gave people the opportunity to savor the simple pleasures in life without that side of guilt that usually comes with it. that usually comes with it. And overall, I think there is also these years a global interest in the Nordic countries in Scandinavia, because I think there's a growing recognition that those countries are doing something right in terms of creating good conditions for quality of life. So I think there was in that sense, the perfect hugestorm with a tornado of hot chocolate and candles around. Absolutely. I mean, there are so many different things I want to talk to you about based upon what you just said.

One of them is, you know, the Scandinavian countries are doing something right. And I think that's something we've seen on a number of levels. One thing that I have taken from, you know, when I'm reading about Scandinavia, or even when I've been there, there seems to be things that are set up culturally there for the greater good. It seems to be, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, it seems to be a less me-focused society. It seems to be, you know, societally, certain things are put in place, whether it's high taxes, potentially, but they're there to enable, you to enable well-being across a population. Am I right at that? Is it less of a me-focused society than, let's say, here in the UK?

I think there is a lesser level of the perception that happiness is a zero-sum game um that my happiness also depends on how you and your family is doing um i think there is a framework in place that ensures there's simply less to compete for, meaning there is less incentive to be cutthroat and have sharp elbows, because whether you are rich or poor, you will still be able to have a decent life and you will still be able to enjoy life. So one of the things I enjoy in the summertime in copenhagen which is in all fairness about four hours and then it's back to winter again but but it's four amazing even this summer did you get a good summer like

we had an amazing summer yeah six hours no but i mean that's a 50 increase that's that's good but i mean one of my my favorite things to do in the summer after work, go down in the central harbor of Copenhagen and have a swim. And there's been a large investment from the government and the city to clean up the water. So the water level, the quality of the water in the harbor is clean enough so you can swim in it. And that is something a lot of people in Copenhagen do. That is something you can enjoy whether you are rich or poor. And I think having stuff like that in place, you know, sort of removes the price tag there is on happiness. That some of the things you enjoy you can do whether you're rich or poor. I think that's important. I think having an infrastructure in place that allows everybody to move around the city, to be mobile in terms of pedestrians and in terms of cyclists, so you do not need to own a car. I don't own a car because I don't need a car. So my mobility cannot be taken away from me. I have a bicycle, I can go anywhere, everywhere I need to go. And in addition, it also keeps me healthier than if I was driving.

And I think having a society where you don't need to pay to get into a decent level of quality of life, I think that's the key to ensuring a society where it's not me first all the time. Yeah, I want to hear some of that benefit also. Let's say you, you know, no matter your income level, you can go and swim in the downtown harbour. Is there something in the fact that you may not earn much money, but you could be swimming next to a guy who's the CEO of a company and could be very, very rich, but actually in that harbour, it doesn't matter. You can all swim in there.

Is there something about that societal cohesion? Is there something about that societal cohesion? Yeah, or an equalizer. That I could be riding my bike next to the Minister of Foreign Affairs or one of the CEO of the big banks. We'll still get there in the same time. And I mean, I have a normal bike. They might have a fancier bike. But I think there is an equalizer to some

of those things. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I wonder actually, when I talk about health, I'm always talking about empowering an individual to be healthier, to empower them with information and hopefully a bit of inspiration so that they can make small changes that are going to yield to very big, profound changes in their wellbeing. But I think the thing that often isn't spoken about is that, yes, individually, of course, I want to encourage people to make healthier choices. But often, the choices we make are a result of the way society is set up and how easy it is to make those choices. So with respect to health, although I think personal empowerment is important, I think the big shifts are going to come

societally when things are, you know, maybe at a legislative level, we make changes that make it easier for everybody to be healthy rather than you fighting against the norm. And I wonder, is there an analogy to happiness? So, you know, is happiness down to what we do individually, or is it more down to what happens societally? It's both. And it's also genetics. But you're right. I mean, the choices you make on a daily basis, it impacts your health. It also impacts your happiness. But also the policies, the frameworks, the city you live in impact your health, the level of pollution, whether there is access to decent quality in health services and so on. But it also impacts your happiness. So I think, was it Churchill that said, we shape our cities and then they shape us? I don't know.

Let's say it was. Let's say it was, yeah. It was Churchill. And if it wasn't, we can attribute it to you. I'll take it. I'll take it. But listen, I mean, one of the reasons why Copenhagen has

relatively low obesity levels from a European point of view is that people cycle. So the majority of citizens in Copenhagen, they cycle to work, they cycle to the university. The majority of members of parliament, they cycle to parliament, not because it's cheap, not because it's good for the environment, not because it keeps us healthy, but because it's easy and it's convenient and it's the fastest way to go that is something that has been created over decades people or the government the city has invested in an infrastructure that makes bicycle the logic fast choice to make it's not

because i think it's good for the environment that I ride my bike to work. It's because it's the easiest and the fastest. So I think that's an example of how we shape our cities and in turn, they shape us afterwards. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. And it's incredible that the Copenhagen have prioritized that and they're obviously yielding all the benefits now,

including the number one spot in the happiness ranking. Is that true? Actually, we dropped to third place. Come on. So actually, our absolute happiness level is the same as it has been for the past couple of years. But now Norway and Finland have higher levels than we do. So we dropped to third place. Is there some Scandinavian rivalry going on there? Of course, sibling rivalry. So as I see it, you know, we have two strategies in Denmark.

We can try and become happier, or we can just undermine the happiness in Finland and Norway. Oh, fantastic. But obviously, you know, you'd have to say looking at this subjectively from afar that Scandinavia is clearly doing something right, which is, you know, is it any wonder that there is so much interest now in what are you guys doing? You know, why are these communities so happy? I think there's something that we can all learn from that for sure. that we can all learn from that for sure. You mentioned the first book about taking, you know, pleasure in the small things in life, whether it's, you know, putting candles on, you know, savouring a hot chocolate or savouring a coffee, you know, even things like that, you know, if you walk around London, we obviously, we both come into London for the day and, you know, you run around, the majority of people are not sitting down to have

their coffee or their tea. They're trying to get it in a takeout and get on the move and go, go, go. And I think there is something about just slowing down a little bit and taking pleasure in the small things. The second book was, again, I don't want to get the pronunciation wrong. So the first book was a little book of hygge. So the first book was a little book of hygge. And the second book was the little book of... Lugge. Lugge. Okay. And perhaps you could explain what Lugge is, because I believe that it is being re-released as a paperback coming out in March with a slightly more English-friendly title. Is that fair to say?

I think so, yes. The Keys to Happiness. The Keys to Happiness. Yeah yeah but what is luger so luger is the danish word for happiness and with the second book i wanted to you know make the point that you know denmark doesn't have a monopoly on happiness and we can find happiness around the world so it's more a global treasure hunt for happiness in terms of what are people around the world doing right that creates good conditions for happiness so what can what are people around the world doing right that creates good conditions for happiness. So what can we learn from France in terms of mealtimes?

What can we learn from Bhutan in terms of how to introduce mindfulness in schools and so on? But I think looking at Denmark and looking at Scandinavia, Looking at Denmark and looking at Scandinavia, what those countries do well is their social democratic welfare state. I mean, we can say that the Nordic countries are the happiest in the world. You can also turn it around and say they are the least unhappy because I think they are quite good at reducing the causes of unhappiness. So access to health care, access to university education, relatively equal opportunities for men and women, and so on. I think they are good at lifting up the bottom. Well, that brings up the average,

and that makes you come out in the top of the World Happiness Reports. So I think there are several factors, but if we look at them across the five Nordic countries, I think it's the policies that's put in place. We can also see it, for instance, when we look at the effect children have on happiness. So obviously children are wonderful in terms of that sense of purpose. But when we look at life satisfaction, the effect of becoming a parent differs from country to country. So if we compare parents and non-parents, for instance in the US, we can see that American parents are 12% less happy than people without kids. If you take Norway or Sweden, we see that parents are happier than people without kids, around two or three or four

percent. It's not that the Swedish kids are nicer than the American kids. It's just that it's easier to be a family in Sweden than in the US. There's paternity or maternity leave. There is a shorter work week. There is 60 days off per week. Not 60 days off per week oh sorry not 60 days off per week i love it i'm moving 60 days off per year for your kids being sick um so so it's the policies that that makes uh parents in sweden happier than american uh parents yeah which goes back to that whole point about these societal priorities can have a huge impact on individual happiness. Because that's incredible to think that a parent in Scandinavia, by and large, is happier than a parent in America. And I wonder what that is in the UK, because I see a lot of stressed parents around.

Yeah, and it's also something we often hear when people move from New York or London to Copenhagen, that they see an increase in quality of life mainly due to a better balance between work and life. That you are able to have dinner on a daily basis with your kids and your spouse and not see them as something you need to reacquaint yourself with during the weekends. I mean, some of this seems to me that this was the norm across huge parts of the world until very recently. I mean, I'm going to make a guess here that maybe 30 years ago in the UK, I would imagine that the majority of people once a day would be at home having a home-cooked meal with their family. And it's amazing how quickly society has changed. So we've just eroded at some of these kind of core institutions of family life. It's just no longer that. People are feeling a lot of work pressure, they're getting back late, working shifts. It's not uncommon to have disjointed mealtimes and

actually not sit and have a meal with your family every day. Right, exactly. And I think, how do we solve that? So I think one of the key questions for us, both doctors and happiness researchers and people in general and societies and governments is to solve the question how do we convert wealth into well-being yeah i don't think we solved that we are richer than ever before from a global point of view um but we fail to convert that wealth into well-being. So I think that the poster child for that challenge is South Korea, which I visit from time to time,

which have had this tremendous growth in wealth over the past generations and gone from one of the poorest countries to one of the richest countries. Yet they are really struggling with converting that into quality of life. I mean, the rat race is bad here in London. I think it's even worse in Seoul. There's tremendous pressure on people. There is a non-existing balance between work and life. Young generation are competing to get into the best universities. We see the highest suicide rate in OECD.

And interestingly, the country we get most visits from at the happiness research institute is south korea because they are realizing that the way we've designed society our policies our workplaces our work-life balance is wrong but it's it's finding that right framework that we're struggling with. It was easier when, and I'm not saying that those were better times, but it was easier when there were obvious ways to improve our lives with the money that was flowing in. And I think we are struggling now with investing it in the right places. It seems to me that, again, you may know some of the research on this.

I don't actually know any of the exact research on this, but we know that stress is a big problem these days. The World Health Organization are calling stress the health epidemic of the 21st century. Stress impacts every single organ in our body. They say that up to about 80% of what a GP sees in any given day is in some way related to stress. So it would appear to me, at least, that it would make sense as our stress levels rise across society, that our happiness must at the same time be going down. Has any research been done into that, how stress correlates to happiness?

Yeah, we've done several, and other researchers have done it. So let me give you two examples. We are just working now, or sort of have just launched now, an experiment together with a company in copenhagen a management consultancy called valcon where we are turning that company into a happiness lab so over the next year we're going to run different experiments different intervention to see can we improve quality of

life can we improve happiness levels for their employees super Super interesting project, really bold. We don't know what is going to happen. That's what happens in a lab, I guess. But we run baseline surveys to see what predicts the employees' happiness levels. And stress comes up as the factor with the most potential. So if we can find ways to reduce stress among the employees, we hope to see happiness levels rise a year from now. So that's one case. Another case is a gigantic study we've run for the past couple of years called So Happy,

where we see how a skin disease called psoriasis impacts happiness levels for patients. So we've collected more than 200,000, we have data from more than 200,000 patients across the world. And we can see, obviously, as we said before, if you have a disease, you are less happy. There's a happiness gap between the average citizen in UK, China, Denmark, and people living with psoriasis in those countries. Stress levels are often the best predictor of their happiness levels together. And I think this brings us back to what you said earlier, the link between your world and my world, the physical health and the mental health. We see that if patients feel their doctor fully understands the mental impact that psoriasis have on them,

the lower the happiness gaps. So it's not just the skin disease, but it's something that impacts loneliness, self-esteem, and quality of life and mental health. So I think that's a really interesting case to follow. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess what you just said about their relationship with their doctor is something that I've always felt as a doctor that even if you can't help your patients, just listening attentively, giving feedback,

you know, nodding, expressing an appreciation that, yeah, this must be very difficult and very challenging. It's never ceased to amaze me how much that impacts, positively impacts your patients. Even if you can't physically help them, just that understanding. And I guess I think I want to say to people, often I see people who are actually very lonely, very, very lonely. This is not just elderly people, actually. This is people, lots of young people, particularly young men, aged between sort of 30 and 40, a huge problem with loneliness these days.

And, you know, often I find that, you know, I wouldn't say they're seeing me, their doctor, as a friend, but having someone to listen to them non-judgmentally and being there for them is something a huge impact yeah so sorry i just looked at the clock because i think we need three or four hours for this podcast because there's so many things i want to say so just what you said in terms of of young men being lonely now actually we see in denmark for the first time the young population there's a larger share of people being lonely than the senior population. So we see those tendencies in Denmark.

And I also, because we talked a lot about what works well in Denmark or what works well in Scandinavia, I think we should also talk about what works well here in the UK. And from a mental health point of view, and I think because you're one of the examples of that and a role model, I think, in that sense, talking about mental health. The UK is leading. You're not there yet.

You're not perfect. But the UK is leading in terms of talking about mental health, in terms of reducing stigma around mental health. And I think that's also wonderful to highlight, that there is something that the UK is actually doing really well. Coming forward, especially helping men, talking about difficult issues, depression, stress, anxiety, loneliness. I think there is way more that can be done, but I think you are leading globally in that sense. Well, Mike, thank you for that.

It's good to know that we're doing something right and trying to, you know, I've definitely noticed that there's this real, this real drive now to get people talking about mental health. It's something I take very seriously. I, on my, on the various channels that I speak on, social media or on television, I'm trying more and more to talk about mental health. I think it's really, really important.

And actually, you know, we artificially separate these things, physical health and mental health, but actually they're not actually that difference. They, they, they both feed each other. It's just health for me, really. Um, you are right. We need three or four hours to complete this conversation there. I feel we're barely scratching the surface, Mike. Um, there's so much I want to talk to you about, but I know we're limited on time today. I was going to get into your book, which I think you finished writing,

your brand new book, which is going to come out September. So, you know, not until September 2019. I think that's on making memories. Yes. I don't think we've got time to go into that today, but I'm going to make you promise on air that you're going to come back on the podcast around about the time of that launch to talk about that. Is air that you're going to come back on the podcast around

about the time of that launch to talk about that. Is that something you're willing to commit to? Yes, definitely. Yeah. So we'll continue this conversation then. We'll make sure we've got a bit longer time. But just to wrap it up, I think one thing I'd love to ask you, I ask a lot of researchers this, is since you have started researching happiness you know what change have you put into practice into your own life based upon the research that you've done i think several things actually and and i feel very fortunate because a it's really interesting to to study happiness i get to talk with people like you but i also get to try and understand you know what drives happiness and it's secondly it's it's a field of work that

you take home with you in a good sense because when you ask these questions in the data in the literature to people around the world you also of course automatically start to ask those questions yourself and and a couple of things i've done is because and no big surprise because what we see in the data the importance of relationships i've tried to prioritize them more um i try to limit uh the workload i have i become better at saying no to things uh to reduce my stress levels and and also like we talked about before trying to create an infrastructure in my daily routines that makes me more active because we see physical health also impacts happiness and staying active impacts happiness um so one thing is the cycling and of

course we can't all cycle to work but we can all try i think to create these sort of micro exercises and build them into our daily routine um so so this year i've actually increased i think my step count by around 15 20 percent um i think a big part of it is that now at the office we have uh we have a sort of barista at the ground floor. And when I order coffee there, instead of waiting by the barista to have him or her finish the coffee, I now walk up the, I think it's four floors to the top of the building and back down. And when I come back down, my coffee is ready. So it doesn't take me any more time. But because I drink a lot of coffee over one week that actually accumulates

to 100 stories which i think is the height of the empire state building so i think little things like that trying to create an environment where i make the right choices also in terms of physical and mental health yeah well that's incredible and that's that reminds me of some of the science of behavior change about creating some stickiness around your habits, you know, sticking them on to something else that you're doing. So you're going to buy your coffee every morning. That's, I'm guessing from your demeanor, that's a non-negotiable part of your day. So you're stuck on a helpful habit to that, which is probably one of the reasons why it's stuck. be one of the reasons why it's stuck. The follow-up question was going to be, I would like to inspire the listener to make some changes in their own life. And I was going to ask you for your top tips, but I guess you've just answered that really in terms of what you do for yourself.

So would the things that you put into your life, would they be your top tips for any listeners to actually get a little bit more happiness in their own life? top tips for any listeners to actually get a little bit more happiness in their own life? Not necessarily. I know, I know I should say yes, but, but I think, you know, it very much depends on the situation. Um, Oh, I think, I think, um, prioritizing their relationships is likely to yield benefits. But, but I mean, in my latest book, I think I have 30, 40 or more different recommendations, different happiness tips. And it's not a to-do list, but it's more a collection of ideas for inspiration that people can implement. And maybe it's, you know, tip 3, 7 and 15 that some people will like. Maybe it's 31, 32 for others.

So I think it very much depends on the the situation like when you make a diagnosis for some of your patients i think that the the diagnosis and especially the treatment also depends on the situation of that absolutely and people have got to be able to personalize it so i think that's a really good answer actually there's no one uh prescription happiness prescription that will fit everyone but but i do think that you know, your idea of prioritizing real relationships, being active every day and learning to say no, I think is some pretty good takeaways for everyone listening to the podcast today. Mike, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this. I actually genuinely wish we had another two or three hours because I've got so many questions to ask you. But we will continue this within a few months for sure.

Next time you're over in the UK, I'll try and get some time booked in with you. And I really appreciate you joining me today. Thanks for having me. Have a wonderful day full of happiness. Likewise. That concludes today's episode of the Feel Better Live More podcast.

I certainly enjoyed my conversation with Mike and I hope that you did too. If you think the information shared today would be of interest to some of your friends and family, please do consider sharing the podcast with them. The best ways to support the podcast are to leave a review on whichever platform you are listening to this on, such as Apple, Acast, and now also on Spotify. You could even take a screenshot on your phone right now and share on your social media channels. Don't forget that there is a show notes page

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And if possible, use the hashtag feel better, live more. Don't forget my second book, The Stress Solution, The Four Steps to Reset Your Body, Relationships, Mind and Purpose is available to pre-order now. And as well as the paperback version, it's also going to be available as an audio book, which I will be reading. For those of you new to the podcast, my very first book, The Four Pillar Plan

is available to buy all over the world. So do consider picking up a copy. Just be aware that if you live in the USA or Canada, it has come out with a different title, which is how to make disease disappear. That's it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure you have pressed subscribe and I'll be back next week with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the architects of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time. Thank you.