Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #36 The Truth About Plastic: Why We Should All Care with Will McCallum

Episode Date: November 14, 2018

“I do have real fears about whether or not the toxicity will increase to dangerous levels” The statistics are devastating. Plastic has increased twenty-fold over the past 50 years and will double again in the next 10 years. Already present in the stomachs of nearly all the world’s marine birds, by 2050 plastics in the ocean may outweigh fish, covering large swaths of the Pacific in floating garbage slicks. But what effect does this plastic have? When ingested by big fish, like whales and seals, it lowers their immune system, lowers their ability to reproduce and even sends them mad. There is little research relating to its effects on human health but there are some papers about BPA and its possible impact on male fertility. Whilst much more robust research is needed in this area, how long are we willing to wait before we take action? This week, I talk to campaigner and Head of Oceans at Greenpeace, Will McCallum, about what effect single-use plastic (any plastic you use once and then throw away) is having on our planet and what we can do to stop it. Shockingly, even if you throw your coffee cup in the recycling bin, the chances are, it still won’t be recycled and may end up in the ocean. The same is true of the 35 million plastic bottles we use in the UK every day. Although the statistics may sound gloomy, small policy change can make a big difference. Now more than ever before, we have access to the people in power via social media and are able to ask for real change and we will be heard. We also discuss how environmental health and human health are inseparable and how the current state of the environment is a reflection of our always on the go, highly stressed lifestyles. Will shares some brilliant ways we can all make a difference including buying a reusable coffee cup, water bottle and bag as well as saying no to straws. This is an essential and empowering conversation – I hope you enjoy it!  Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/plastic Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you look at how plastic production is set to increase, so it's set to double in the next 10 years, set to quadruple by 2050. So we start to look at the levels of toxicity we already have, but then when we think about the future and the kind of future we're creating with the amount of plastic, I do have real fears about whether or not the toxicity will increase to dangerous levels. Hi, my name is Dr Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space, to hopefully inspire you, as well as empower you

with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier, because when we feel better, we live more. Hello and welcome to another episode of my Feel Better Live More podcast. My name is Rangan Chastji and I am your host. Today's conversation is all about plastic. I think most of us are now aware of the damage our collective use of plastic is inflicting on the planet. But the question for many of us is what can we actually do that will really make a difference? My guest today, who is the head of oceans at Greenpeace, will describe what affects single-use plastic, which is any plastic you use once and then throw away,

is having on our planet, and importantly will tell us what we can do to stop it. and importantly will tell us what we can do to stop it. We discuss how environmental health and human health are inseparable and how the environment is a reflection of our always on-the-go, highly stressed lifestyles. We're always so, so busy these days, rushing around on the move, picking up a quick coffee that we don't even have time to sit down and enjoy, so we get it in a takeaway cup. And even if you do throw your coffee cup in the recycling bin, the chances are it still won't be recycled and may end up in the ocean. While the statistics all sound really gloomy, there are

things that we can all do that will make a big difference. This is an eye-opening and empowering conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Now, before we get started, I need to let you know that Athletic Greens are the sponsors once again of today's show. For me, the right nutrition is an essential ingredient to having a healthy and happy life. And whilst I absolutely prefer people to get their nutrition from eating foods, I recognize that for some of us that can be a little bit challenging. As I just mentioned, many of us are rushing around trying to meet competing demands, often get home late and even with the best intentions, on some days it can be tricky to cook a wholesome, nutritious meal. If you want to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure

that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend Athletic Greens. It is a really tasty whole food greens powder that you can take each morning. And unlike most green supplements that I have tried in the past, it really does taste fantastic. It's actually much more than a green supplement. It includes vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens. Thank you to those of you who have already tried it out and fed back to me on social media how it has improved the way that you're feeling. I love what this company stands for. And for listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you will be able to

access a special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around £70 with your first order. So do go and check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation. forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation. Hey guys, I'm super excited for today's guest on my Feel Better Live More podcast. I've got a gentleman in front of me called Will McCallum, who is Head of Oceans at Greenpeace. Will has been at the heart of the anti-plastics movement for the past three years in his role as Head of Oceans at Greenpeace. He's been working with both governments and companies to prevent our plastic crisis and has shared his knowledge in an absolutely fantastic book, How to Give Up Plastic,

which is packed with tips and tricks to help you reduce your plastic footprint in your homes, communities and workplaces. Will, welcome to the podcast. Hi, nice to be here. It's a real honour for me that you've freed up some time to come and talk to. Will, welcome to the podcast. Hi, nice to be here. It's a real honour for me that you've freed up some time to come and talk to me today, Will. I think what you are doing is so incredibly important. As a father, as a family man, this is something I try and talk to my children about. It's a big thing we talk about on most days about how we can reduce our plastic consumption how did you get to being head of oceans at greenpeace how what does that journey look like uh the journey i mean i just had an interest in being outdoors i've always loved

being on the outdoors i've always liked being at sea so i spend a lot of time kayaking i enjoyed uh spending time at the beach and my family were big into camping and spending time outdoors. So when I started going to university and getting interested in things, environment was really at the forefront of my mind as to what I was interested in. And I just sort of worked my way into Greenpeace Supply for a job, worked on lots of different environmental campaigns on coal, on climate change, on fisheries. And then a few years ago, started to really wake up to what was happening out on our oceans when it comes to plastic. And so decided to start the plastics campaign with Greenpeace.

Wow. And do you think that people are more aware now than they ever have been about the impacts of plastics? And why is that? Absolutely. I think I've never worked on a campaign where I've had so many people come and just ask what can I do or why is this happening there's never been such an amount of public interest in in the environment at all but especially on on plastics as there is right now and I think part of that is we're seeing more and more the impacts impacts. So plastic is something that we've all experienced going down to the local park, to our beach on holiday. If you're lucky enough to get out to sea, you'll probably have seen it there as well. And so we're seeing that

what we're holding in our hand, be that a coffee cup or a straw or a plastic fork, is actually ending up on the beaches. And it's causing us to ask these kinds of questions you know how did it get there and then what can i do to make it stop yeah it really is incredible i i i agree i i think we were talking about it a few years ago but it seems to be it's almost getting to the point in certain you know in certain friends groups and certain communities and certain social circles it's i i hope it gets to the point where it's actually almost socially unacceptable at some point to to misuse plastic which i don't think it's we're not quite there yet are we we're not quite although it is amazing the amount of times i'm sitting in a cafe or in a pub and i overhear a conversation about plastic bottles or plastic straws and i think blue planet definitely played a role in that you know blue planet was seen by hundreds of millions of people

around the world i think in china, it had nearly 200 million downloads. Wow. So this is serious interest in the oceans and the amazing wildlife. And it's hard once you've seen such spectacular imagery and you see the damage that our products are doing to it to not have a slight sense of responsibility. Is your sort of interest in plastics primarily around the health of the planet or is it about human health as well? It's primarily around health of the planet and

that's not to say that human health I think isn't interesting it's just the research isn't quite there with the human health side so I think we're still there's a long way for us to learn exactly what impacts plastics are having on on human health So I will be interested in it when I start to see the research, absolutely. But right now, I think in terms of the impacts we know about, we know a lot more about the impact on the environment. Yeah, I think that's absolutely fair to say. I've read some pretty worrying papers about BPA, for example, and the possible impact on male fertility, for example. I know we're needing more and more research all the time, but you read that and then you put it together

with this study that I saw where in one fertility clinic in America, 78% of the men going through it had levels of BPA in their urine, which is quite alarming really. And I think if all these health implications that we're sort of suspecting turn out to be true and turn out to be, you know, we get a lot more robust research behind them,

I think it's pretty worrying from a human health perspective. Definitely. And if you look at how plastic production is set to increase, so it's set to double in the next 10 years, set to quadruple by 2050. So we start to look at the levels of toxicity we already have, but then when we think about the future and the kind of future we're creating with the amount of plastic,

I do have real fears about whether or not the toxicity will increase to dangerous levels. We know that, for example, when plastic is in the ocean, it acts as a magnet for other toxins. So they might be naturally occurring ones, things like mercury or cadmium, or they might be man-made ones, things like PCBs, polychlorinated biphenyls, which are, they were used on batteries and flame retardants, and then they were banned in the 70s. But just because they were banned, unfortunately, they are persistent in the environment. So they

stay out there for a long time. And when plastic, microplplastics so any plastic under sort of five millimeters is a microplastic when it's in the ocean it can act as a magnet and and trap all of these toxins on it which then it gets eaten by a small fish by a bigger fish eventually ending up in the sort of really charismatic creatures that we really love things like seals and whales and we're seeing rates of pcbs in in whales and seals at higher than ever levels and what it does it lowers their immune system it lowers their ability to reproduce and it sends them mad to be honest and we see beachings and so we're already seeing this this increase of PCBs and we're starting to make the link between plastics accelerating that whole process.

Wow it's just staggering when you when you explain it, you see the impacts that this sort of thing is having. Could you just explain what PCBs are for anyone listening who is not familiar with that term? Absolutely. PCBs, they are polychlorinated biphenyls. It's a chemical compound that was very commonly used in things like batteries and flame retardants, so industrial processes. And we used to not really care about what happened to it when it went into the environment. But they were banned in the 70s. Unfortunately, they survive in the environment for decades and decades. So PCBs, they're still out there.

All of the ones that were sort of flushed down the drain or thrown out into the environment, they all still exist down in the sediment of the ocean. Wow. It's just incredible. I don't think many of us realise the impact that this has had or the impact plastics have when we're just going about our everyday lives and I guess on one level

for many of us there's this real complete disconnect with what's going on in the depths of the oceans versus us in our everyday lives just rushing around trying to get through our day rushing into the coffee shop getting a quick coffee to perk us up as we get going, we're not really seeing those kind of long-term consequences. And is that a problem in

terms of trying to get people to make that behaviour change? I think it is. I think it's easy to look at the problem as being over there. And we particularly see it with how newspapers report on plastic sales, often talk about it as a problem in China or in Malaysia or in Vietnam. And I think what they're not reporting is so much of the waste that we produce over here, we actually export to all those places. We export our waste. We export our stuff that we think we are throwing into our recycling bin actually gets exported elsewhere for them to deal with.

And there's very little transparency around where it's going, how it's being treated. We know that, for example, China at the start of this year said they're not going to take any more of our waste because so much of what we were sending them was contaminated. Now, if it was contaminated, that probably means they were just throwing it in landfill or they were saying no at the port and then the ship was having to find somewhere else to take it. So the problem is very much a global one thankfully i think people people are much more attuned to what they can do because because of you know things like youtube videos with a turtle and a straw being pulled out of its nose we've all used a straw we've all seen a straw on a beach and uh and and people are making that connection i think

wow yeah it really is staggering in book, there are some pretty alarming statistics. One, I remember, was in the US, over 1,500 plastic bottles are used every second, which is a remarkable statistic. It's a problem all over the world, isn't it? How are we doing in the UK with it, would you say? In the UK, we're amongst the worst offenders in terms of how much we use. So we probably use use maybe the average person between 50 and 70 kilograms. So about your own body weight in plastic each year

you're using. So compare that to sort of Eastern Europe they're probably using half that. In the States they might be using nearly double that. So we're not doing too great in terms of how much single use and it's really single use plastics that I'm talking about when we're talking about plastics.

Yeah, well, that was something that came up in the book, this term single-use plastic. So I've got to say, one of the things I really enjoyed about your book is that you recognised where there are some really valuable uses of plastic and how they can really help people in certain instances. But I wonder if you could just define that term single-use plastic for us. So single-use would be any plastic that you use once and throw away. So consumable products, largely we see it in food packaging, that's probably the most common, but it could be packaging of any kind and then, you know, lots of random, I don't know, McDonald's toys or sort of things that you just throw away without thinking about it. Now, of course, there are single-use plastics that do have a huge value to society.

So they might be particularly in hospitals, in, you know, health and safety, hygienic. Plastic has become so popular because it's cheap, it's durable, and because it's hygienic. And we're not calling for an end to those. We'd like a lot more research into whether or not there can be different materials used. But really what we're focusing on and what I wrote the book about is all of that plastic. And this is millions and millions of tons of the plastic that we produce globally that is just produced and used once for a few seconds before being thrown away. Where once it's thrown away out in the environment,

a plastic bottle can take half a millennium to decompose. Wow, half a millennium to decompose. The one thing that I don't think I was aware of is that we export a lot of our waste. So let's say that I have bought a drink in a plastic bottle and I've drunk my drink and I put that plastic bottle in the recycle bin is that helpful or is is you know I guess what I'm trying to get at is what can people practically do in real life that's actually going to make a difference I think absolutely recycling stuff that is recyclable is hugely valuable. You

know, we need recycling infrastructure there. It's going to play a part for forever, probably, in terms of how we deal with plastic. And we like that all single-use plastic is recyclable. It's appalling that there is any plastic, to be honest, on the market that you can't recycle at the end of its life. So styrofoam and polystyrene, for example, is not recyclable and just shouldn't be being sold. But there's so much that is recyclable and putting in your recycling, you know, it helps your local council. They get value from that. They get money from that. And we're actually seeing a lot of companies at the moment setting targets for how much recycled content they're going to use in their packaging. But when we start, when we think

about what the most impact, so what are the But when we start, when we think about what the most impact, so what are the things that we do as an individual that would have the most impact, it's definitely in the realm of reduction. So trying to just cut it out wherever possible. And that's what my book is focused on. And what our campaigning at Greenpeace is focused on is how do we reduce the overall volume of plastic? And that could be very simple things. So the big four are always the four that I say to anyone, which is get a reusable bag, get a reusable water bottle, a reusable coffee cup, and just say no to straws.

I think if you do those four, that's already having a massive impact. In the UK, we use about 35 million plastic bottles every single day. So if people stop... Every day? Every day. Only half of those are recycled. So about people stop... Every day? Every day. Only half of those are recycled. So about... 35 million, what was the... 35 million plastic bottles every single day in the UK. Wow. So these are phenomenally huge numbers, but actually... I'm in shock. I'm in

shock it's that much. Yeah, so that's every person in the UK using one every other day, pretty much. When you break it down into into that actually you having a reusable water bottle and not you not having your one every other day it starts to look like having a bit of an impact there's also the very real fact that you don't know whether the plastic item that you're using say it's a plastic coffee stirrer that could be the one that ends up in the ocean so there's a very tangible link between the thing that's in your hand and what can so we could literally be using something that ends up choking exactly some some wildlife somewhere around the world we literally it could be the one that we use that we didn't you know dispose off appropriately potentially completely

you know say you're in a park on a summer's day the bins are overflowing and you put something next to the bin that that kind of situation that is how plastic ends up in the ocean it gets picked by the wind into waterways and then goes in by the rivers. Another way that it ends up is maybe we've put it, we have disposed of it responsibly, it gets sent to landfill, but actually a lot of landfill sites might be near the coast and it might leak into the ocean that way. So every bit of plastic that you reduce, you are potentially having that positive impact. And that's why, that you reduce you are you are potentially having that positive impact and and that's why i do you know that's how i keep up motivation actually to reduce plastic it's because you you can make that very yeah and well that that's really really struck a chord with me because

you know i i was thinking before interviewing i was thinking you know there's a there's a bit of a similarity here on some level between what I usually talk about on this podcast, which is how our nutrition and our lifestyle and those choices that we make can really impact the way that we feel. And then we get those right, they can impact how much we get out of life. But I also think that a lot of it, you know, we're putting a lot of pressure on people to make the personal, you know, a lot of pressure on personal responsibility to make the right choice. a lot of pressure on personal responsibility to make the right choice. And if we just talk about health for a second, I often look at those cultures around the world and those communities where people are living very healthily,

and often actually the environment around them makes it easy to make healthy choices. So there's less pressure on the individual. It's just society is generally healthy. So if you engage and live in that society, you're probably going to be pretty healthy. Whereas I think here, certainly in the West, certainly here, we're sitting here in London having this interview. Well, not an interview, a conversation. You're constantly being challenged by and being tempted with unhealthy practices. You always have to motivate yourself to make those healthy choices

and so the parallel I would draw is of course in health I'm always trying to inspire people to individually make healthier choices but I think the the big changes will come from policy change when actually the whole environment is a lot healthier and so people find it easy. If we sort of use that as a model for plastics, I'm all for encouraging people to make individual change. But do you think there are some policy changes that would also have a much bigger impact than actually people's individual habits? Absolutely.

And I think policy change and corporate policy change is really what the main focus has to be. And all of this stuff around individual, yes, it's important, and I've explained why it's important. But I suppose the final way why it's important is it will make it much easier to get that policy change because if governments, if politicians see

that there are people willingly doing this, they are much more likely to press ahead with positive policy change. So I think the things that we're really focused on at the moment, there's an upcoming environment bill in the UK. The Prime Minister announced it in a speech a couple of months ago. So we're really hoping that the government sets some reduction targets, some actual firm, legally binding targets to reduce the overall amount of plastic.

That could be by banning particular items that we just say, right, as a society, we have fun with these for 20 years now it's time to get rid of them that could be plastic cutlery for example um or it could be reducing by saying you know what supermarkets should be investing much more in reusable containers that people bring back or with home delivery they would give back their packaging to the to the delivery van when it brings in their their new weekly shop i mean some of the packaging in supermarkets is scandalous. Absolutely.

You know, I mean, you know, I'm not one to sort of go over this. Well, I'm certainly not trying to make an alarming statement, but I was looking around the supermarket recently and the amounts of plastic there, I found just incredible. You're trying to buy fruit and vegetables. It's all nicely packaged up. And you think how much of this is necessary? Absolutely. And that's the question that we are really asking them at the moment and we're really trying to pile the pressure

on so they go through product by product and say do we really need this and I'll go back to something I said earlier they just should not have anything on their shelf that can't be recycled there's no excuse for it and so as a first step and this is a step that has already been taken by Tesco for example they could already go out and get rid of everything that has already been taken by Tesco, for example, they could already go out and get rid of everything that can't be recycled. As the next step, they need to look at all of the different areas where they reduce the overall amount of plastic. And fruit and veg is a great example because, you know, fruit and veg naturally has a covering to it, naturally has its own wrapping very often, and it doesn't need to be wrapped up in the way that they are.

Yeah, I'd be quite encouraged to see actually some changes. I was in a Waitrose the other day and on one of their sort of bananas it was no longer in plastic there was just a sticker on it saying what it was and I guess they would probably argue they need a sticker so they could have a barcode and scan it because I guess technically it's still plastic but it wasn't the big packaging the whole you know the bananas weren't all in this big clear packaging. And I thought that was quite encouraging. And in that same Waitrose, I also saw that what Waitrose used to do

was I think offer their customers tea or coffee when they were in their supermarkets. And I know it was a big appeal for lots of people. They'd go in and they'd go in. It was always in a disposable cup. But I think it was just last week that they're no longer doing that. They've stopped all doing that. And you have to buy, you have to either bring in your own reusable one,

and yes, they will give you your free coffee, or you have to buy one of the reusable Waitrose ones, which you can then use. And I thought, you know, that's quite a significant step. If these, you know, supermarkets probably can play a huge role here because, you know, the impacts of if one supermarket makes a change, the impact will be huge. Completely. And they're making it easy for us. And that's what policy change and company policy change should be about. It should be about making it easy for us to do the things that help us to lead a better life, help the environment. And at the moment, the bulk of lead a better life, help the environment.

And at the moment, the bulk of companies and government policy isn't helping us. So it's great to see companies like Waitrose doing that. Morrison's is another one. They've now said, you know, if you bring in your own container, we'll put your meat, fish or cheese into it. And you can take in your own reusable container and they'll do that. Iceland are another company. So traditionally Iceland, I think they're associated with being a budget supermarket.

And they were the first supermarket in the world to say we're going to go single-use plastic-free within five years. So they're a year into that. So there's another four years to go. But if they are saying it, I think it really sends that message that companies can go a lot further than they already are.

Yeah, that's incredible. Well, I want to just, for people who are are listening let's really get into the nuts and bolts of the practical things that they can do because i think i can't see there being much argument that we shouldn't be reducing our plastic i think intuitively i think most of us would if we were directly questioned on it would probably say probably say, yeah, OK, fine. Yeah, I should probably reduce how much plastic I use. But let's see if, you know, this podcast that we do together can really inspire these listeners to actually make that change. So let's just go back to your top four things, because I think that's a great starting point. What were those again?

So they were a reusable water bottle, a reusable bag, a reusable coffee cup and say no to straws. reusable bag a reusable coffee cup and say no to straws and i'll just very briefly just stay on straws for a second because i know that this is this is a slight area of contention and it's important that these are individual choices that you're able to make and there are a lot of disability campaigners out there at the moment saying actually we really need straws we really need some single-use plastic so before judging the person next to you about what they're using just focus on yourself i think and make sure that you make these changes and don't judge other people for that i think that's a great tip in general for most things in life you know be the change that you want to see you know and it's to make those changes ourselves yeah um so okay fine so you know getting a reusable water bottle i think you know there's no real argument there

is i mean that would be a fantastic thing for us to do. And I guess that would automatically reduce how many bottles of water we consume? Completely, very, very quickly. And also it would encourage, hopefully encourage local government. So Sadiq Khan has already announced he's going to install water fountains in lots of areas of London. That's something we want to see much, much more of and are hoping to see more of in coming years. So a reusable water bottle with more fountains will hopefully make plastic water bottles a thing of the past.

Yeah, that would be incredible. So you just walk around, you know, well, obviously that's in London, but hopefully around the country and around the world, hopefully. But people could know when, you know, they've got their plastic water bottle anytime they need to stop there's there's somewhere where they can get clean tap well clean water to drink um so i could see that being a big thing or how much of a problem with coffee shops coffee shops uh coffee on the go so about one in 400 coffee cups are recycled in the uk so most coffee cups have got their recyclable symbol on it, but actually in practice, that's 0.25% coffee cups are recycled within the UK. Why is that?

It's because they've got a plastic lining on the inside, which is quite hard to get rid of technologically because it's what can prevent the cup from leaking. So a reusable coffee cup could go a huge way and so many coffee shops in fact the majority of coffee shops around here but also i know across the countries most of the big chains have said they'll actually give you a discount if you bring in your own coffee cup so you're starting to make the money back on that upfront investment in a reusable coffee cup so this is just to be clear then so you say one in 400 coffee cups are recycled does that mean one in 400 people who use them are actually actually trying to recycle them? Or is it that even if you do try and recycle them,

they can't actually be recycled because of the plastic lining? Exactly. So lots and lots of local authorities, the recycling infrastructure there, can't deal with that plastic lining. In some of them it can, but in lots of them it can't. And in the uk we've got this silly system where different local authorities recycle different things and and coffee cups are

one of those things that often slip through the cracks yeah when i wonder what onus there should be on businesses and coffee you know that these big coffee companies to how much responsibility do they need to take it's it's it's a really tricky one isn't it because i guess they would argue health and safety wise they probably need that firm you know a really tricky one, isn't it? Because I guess they would argue health and safety-wise, they probably need that firm... We don't want hot water leaking and burning people and that sort of thing. But obviously we've got a major environmental issue here,

haven't we? We do, but coffee shops can be part of that more cultural change as well. So like you were saying with Waitrose, encouraging people to bring their own reusable coffee cup coffee shops can play a huge role in that they can also I know this is my own sort of hope is that they encourage people to just sit down and have their coffee and stop for a moment you know what I don't know will that's so so so close to my heart that I mean that really is

something that I talk about a lot and I kind of feel the whole stressed out culture that we're currently living in is sort of exemplified by this whole thing. I'm rushing to work, but I need my caffeine hits. I'm just going to quickly get it and not really enjoy my coffee, but just kind of drink it on the go and spill it. And somehow, yes, I've had my caffeine fix. And, you know, I've actually just gone through giving up coffee for a while, which was quite a quite a challenge actually but for the last year or two I've always made a real effort to sit there and drink my coffee in a cafe and even then sometimes they would automatically give you a takeout cup and you'd have to actually go and say hey look you know I want to sit in can I have it in a normal cup please and um it's it's almost

that there's an assumption that you want it in a to-go in a to-go cup because you're so busy and everyone drinks coffee on the go yeah yeah and and i think it it takes me into a different area where you can reduce plastic which is and this is the area where i've reduced it definitely the most is just in being a bit more prepared around your lunches and around your food that you take to work and I'm sure this would probably help with your health as well if you're just a bit more organized about what you eat take it in a lunch box or arrange with colleagues to go and sit somewhere and actually take a proper a proper lunch break food on the go crisp packets you know sandwiches wrapped in plastic they are a major part of of litter in particular.

The reason we see these things on the beaches is because they're what we eat on the go. And disposal, waste disposal, rubbish bins on the go are just worse than in your house. So taking that time to plan your lunches, taking the time to take your lunch when you're at work are all ways where you can help reduce your plastic use. I guess the reality is is is that some people may be listening to this going oh it's going to be quite hard it's going to be quite challenging but but the reality is i think we've got a ethical responsibility to do this we should all be reducing our uh you know our use of plastic particularly single-use plastic and so yeah really i'm certainly blown away by some of the stats actually well i find it i find it staggering that

the impact this is having but yet you walk around you know i've been in london for a few hours now i've just come down for the day and you know it's everywhere plastic you know and people uh often and i'm sure i've been guilty as well So I'm literally not sitting on my high horse trying to criticise people. I am actually trying to reduce my plastic consumption and also teach my children about how important it is. Because it's hard, you know, they go to parties or they go to things and everything's like in these little plastic bags. And it's all, I don't know, it all, culturally, it's such a part of culture now, isn't it?

But it probably wasn't about 30 years ago, I'm guessing. No, not at all and I actually met a Polish journalist not that long ago who was telling me about her mum who so they lived behind the Iron Curtain 30 years ago and her mum used to hang out plastic bags on the washing line after washing them out because she was so proud of having so many plastic bags because it was a real sign of wealth. It was a material that had value that we didn't just throw away at the end of its use. So I think that the cultural change, there is an ethical responsibility, but taking it back to what you said before, it is also something that companies and governments need to make easier for us to do. And so to anyone trying to reduce their plastic consumption, I say a very real thing you can do is complain when you see a bit of plastic that you don't think should be there. You know, companies and government are at the moment listening to us on the issue of plastic pollution.

They're actually responding. We're seeing companies racing to get their commitments, you know, whether it's Wagamama saying no more chopsticks in single-use plastic or whether it's sort of your local cafe getting rid of coffee stirrers and replacing them with a metal teaspoon, you know, not that revolutionary. This was the norm a little while ago. This is the irony of all of this is that it's a modern invention really that has, it probably wasn't that long ago when we didn't have these problems. Yeah, and yet we are now just sort of sleepwalking through it, I suppose. And we're at a very particular moment at the moment. That might be Blue Planet,

but I think it was also people's growing awareness that we're living too fast or we are wasting too much and they're wanting to change things around it. So, I don't know, talk to the cafe that you go to every single day. Just ask the manager, do you really need to have these ketchup sachets instead of just having a bottle of ketchup there?

And they'll probably say, oh, I never thought about it before. That's the most common reaction I have when you speak to a business owner. They've just sort of entered into a norm and all it takes is one conversation they might swap out of it. Same with your local council, you know, let them know when you're frustrated that they're not putting a water fountain in your local park or in the bus station or wherever it is. Because that's the only reason they're going to change is if enough of us actually ask them to. Is there a particular hashtag that people can use to make these complaints or something that you or Greenpeace are using that people listening to this can actually, if they want to complain or raise awareness, is there a hashtag that they can use? If you want to have some fun with it, pointlessless Packaging. So hashtag Pointless Packaging.

Pointless Packaging. Yeah, that one has taken off and we're seeing much, much more of it. It really frustrates the supermarkets. And I know that a lot of them are sort of desperately looking through the products out on their shelves at the moment going, which one might be the target of the Pointless Packaging? And that really started with one customer in marks and spencers saw a cauliflower steak wrapped in a piece of plastic and just got so frustrated they tweeted marks

and spencers and a whole sort of twitter storm erupted around it within 24 hours they got rid of it there you go that's the power right yeah absolutely power of social media to actually to create change i think that's a great point, actually, is just to talk about it. And that goes to a wider point, I guess, Will, which is you are a campaigner, aren't you? But we were chatting before and you were saying that, I guess, everyone can be a campaigner.

And I wonder if you could just elaborate on that. So everyone has the skills of being a campaigner. All being a campaigner is, is persuading someone to do something. So whether you've got kids that you're persuading someone to do something uh so whether you've got kids that you're persuading to do the washing up whether you've got colleagues or your uh you're sort of trying to persuade your colleagues to to i don't know whatever it is come out for lunch with you we all have the skills of negotiating and and persuading and that's what

being a campaigner is and you know we know that we cannot give up plastic just as individuals in behind closed doors in our own homes we've just spent the last sort of 40 minutes discussing why that's really difficult so the only way we can do it is if we do it all together and we each have a role in persuading people to to join us so as a campaigner i suppose what what what i ask people to think about is who do you know who might be interested in this and just talk to them about the ways in which you're reducing plastic and see whether they'll do it with you. You'll find it much easier if you're sharing tips and tricks with each other to give up plastic and expand that out. Think about your workplace. Do you work in an office that has an office manager? I'll tell you what, the people who hate plastic the most are office managers because

it's waste and they have to deal with it. So often your office is a great place to start in reducing plastic. We've already spoken about local cafes and local restaurants, going in and talking to them and then using social media. So more than ever, we have access to decision makers, to people in power through social media, whether that's tagging them in a Facebook post or using a hashtag on Twitter. We can actually speak to the people making decisions quick. And they're watching. And they're watching. They're really worried about their reputation on this issue right now. Well, I think that's something that potentially really could drive change

is when it becomes a real problem for businesses to actually have too much plastic, when it becomes uncomfortable publicly for them that that ultimately will drive change because they don't want to lose out business uh because people are shopping at a different supermarket or a different cafe because they're not using plastic and i think making it socially unacceptable for big companies i think will be a great way of driving change and also you know this is quite a different conversation on my podcast for you know normally it's quite focused on health but i thought this would be

very relevant actually to my listeners because i think i think there's so many so many facets of this which actually mirror trying to be healthy ourselves so you said actually doing this with someone or doing this in a group is and sharing tips and tricks makes it a lot easier that's the same thing when you're trying to get healthy in an environment that is set up against you you need to it's very hard to make change in isolation you want to do it in your family you want to do it together you want to do it with your work colleagues and with your friends um but also this point about, I guess, single-use plastic is really reflective of our fast-paced culture, our go-go lifestyles, our super high stress levels, which is impacting all aspects of our health, whether it's our brain health, our digestive health, our heart health. That comes from being stressed out and on the go. being stressed out and on the go. And it's not quite as disparate as you might think. There's quite a lot of similarity here, which is, I love that whole thing about sitting in a cafe and just

drinking your coffee in a proper mug and enjoying it, sitting there for five, 10 minutes and savoring it. And I think the two kind of go together because I don't think we can separate planetary health and environmental health from human health. I actually think they're closely intertwined. And I think one of the issues we've had recently is we've become reductionist about everything and everything we think is separate. Or that, well, you know, the environment's got nothing to do with me. You know, I just need to worry about my own health. I think it's all linked. And that's really an evolution in my thinking over the own health I think it's all linked and that's

really an evolution of my thinking over the past years that it is all linked it is all linked and if you try to imagine what a plastic free community looks like and there's an amazing group called surfers against sewage who are going around the UK trying to create these plastic free communities and there's another amazing group called kids against plastic who are just two brilliant girls Ella and Amy and they go around schools trying to get students to run campaigns within their school and and if you try to imagine what what a community or what a school without plastic looks like it's about more than just not having this material on your desk or in a cafe it's also about uh sort of collectively coming up with ideas for how to solve the problem. And the process of doing that is hopefully a sort of fun, engaging one

that makes you interested in all other areas of the environment and possibly human health as well. And the benefits to giving up single-use plastic, you've laid out really well. It goes way beyond just the environment and just the impact on fish and seabirds, as serious as they are, and hopefully brings us much more benefit as a community as well.

Yeah, absolutely, Will. I remember when I got sent your book, actually, because we share a publisher, Penguin Life, and I got it through the post, I was reading it, and I couldn't put it down, actually, because you weren't talking down to people, you weren't making people feel bad, you were just trying to show what is possible,

where plastic actually has a lot of uses, but the real practical things that people can do and i i really liked your tone in that so i want to thank you for that because i think it was really a great way because i don't think anyone wants to feel taught down to i don't think people want to be told that they're not doing the right thing i think we need to encourage people to make the right choice and i really do hope that people listening to this are thinking about maybe reducing their plastic usage based upon what we've been discussing. Do you think that the 5p charge that came in for plastic bags,

I don't know how long ago it was, was it two years ago now in supermarkets in the UK? Wow, three years already or over three years. And I know people listen to this podcast all over the world. So for those of you who don't listen in the UK? Wow, three years already, or over three years. And I know people listen to this podcast all over the world, so for those of you who don't listen in the UK, perhaps you could explain what happened in 2015, Will. In 2015, the UK government announced that large supermarkets would have to charge 5p for every plastic bag.

And this was the reaction to a campaign. Lots of groups, particularly around the coast, had started to get annoyed with how many they were finding on beaches. And they asked the government to do something about it. And that 5p charge reduced plastic bag use by over 85%. 85%. So that's huge. And now it's been extended to all businesses. So it's not just the large supermarkets. It's actually all shops. So it has made a difference. It has made a huge difference. And they are no longer being found as much on our beaches.

So very simple measures. Actually, that 5p goes to groups working on environmental issues. It's a charge that is having a positive benefit as well. That's incredible to just think how one small policy change can have such a large impact. Because A, people are being hit in their wallets each time they're wanting a plastic bag. But if I just go on my own experience with that, I found it, I didn't remember the first few weeks, months probably, I kept forgetting. I turned up at the supermarket, did my shop, I've got to pay for a bag.

Often I would end up paying for bags because I didn't have them with me, but actually that has actually forced a change in my behavior. So now in my car at all times, there's four or five non-plastic bags, sort of fabric bags in the back of my boot in case I'm ever driving past a supermarket. And I always, if I'm on my bike or walking, I'll always make sure you know to have a bag with me I don't always remember but I've got to say that has really really caused a change in my own behavior and just to see an 85% reduction that's incredible it's amazing I spoke to an MP the other day who was telling me he's so embarrassed about the prospect of coming out of

the supermarket with a plastic bag when he forgets he'd rather come out just bulging having tucked it all under his coat and into all of his pockets because he's so worried about what people will think if he's got a plastic bag and that is a cultural change a huge cultural shift and and it really I don't know gives hope that that will be possible across a whole load of other singles. I think that's brilliant because obviously I don't think anyone should be shamed for what they do necessarily and but I think if we're starting to feel that pressure that it's just not acceptable, I think that really helps to foster change because then people respond to that around you. Yeah, it's really got me thinking actually in terms of how we can make that change. I think plastic water bottles are a huge thing. I guess people will say, I guess this is where your reusable water bottle comes in. But if you're out in a cafe, like I was this morning, actually, and you couldn't get any water there apart from in plastic bottles, which is, I guess you could always probably ask for tap water there.

and if you've got your own reusable water bottle in your backpack, you can ask them to fill it up. But I guess water fountains would be a really simple way. If every restaurant had a little water fountain there that you don't have to bother the cashier, you don't have to take up time at the till, that you could just fill it up yourself, that would be incredible. But is there any resistance from businesses saying, well, actually, we make quite a bit of money from selling bottled water?

Yeah, there is. There is. And it's something that we hear frequently. But I think they're coming to a point where they realise even if they carry on selling plastic bottled water, they are going to have to start providing free water to people because people are asking them to. And enough customers are saying it. And you know what? Some businesses have actually said it increases footfall in their business when they do it. So they are seeing some benefits.

It's not all altruism when they're putting the water fountains there. Hey, well, you know, I'm okay with that. It doesn't matter whatever it's going to be to actually help really motivate that change, I think is important. Well, if we just go into some sort of specifics, you mentioned that the UK rule to sort of well not quite ban plastic bags but charge for them in the supermarkets has caused an 85% reduction in use are there any other success stories from around the world well I think when we think about plastic bags just staying on them for a second

lots of people don't know and I love it as a fact that Bangladesh was the first country to ban plastic bags really Really? In 2002. So what's that? 13 years before the UK did anything about its plastic bag problem, Bangladesh banned them. That is, you know, slightly mind-blowing when you think that why did they do that? And the reason they did that is because Bangladesh, as lots of people are aware, is a very low-lying country and is vulnerable to flooding. And plastic bags were so prevalent so common that they were clogging up all of the drainage pipes and all of the sewage pipes so it was creating these uh the floods that were already happening were getting

much much worse and plastic bags were a real key part of that problem so they they banned them but i just like that as an example because it shows that you you can go out there and be a um you know you can pilot something you can try out something and be a, you know, you can pilot something, you can try out something. And it actually takes us over here quite a lot longer to catch up with some of the best. You know, yeah, I mean, that is incredible. I didn't know that, that they were the first country to do that. I find that incredible. I guess also, I guess, you know, I come from an Indian background.

So I find it interesting that often, you know, we consider ourselves here in the UK and the West, you know, we're developed nations and the, you know, those third world countries haven't quite got their stuff together yet. That narrative does get played out sometimes. And you think, well, actually, that's a pretty smart thing Bangladesh did, you know, that we're trying to keep up with what they did all those years ago, which I find, you know, I find incredible. Yeah. And it's why it makes me very annoyed when people say there are these five rivers or ten rivers out in East Asia and Southeast Asia.

We just need to be thinking about them. And you sort of think, well, the only reason there's such a big problem, the companies that are making all of these products that are flowing down those rivers, they're based over here. And they're having a very comfortable life in capital cities and Western Europe and the States and they are producing these products that are ending up in rivers

all around the world and creating problems elsewhere. So even when those countries do have a huge waste problem, it's often the cause of it might be found much, much closer to home. And I guess, you know, plastic, single-use plastic, probably when it came up, when it became popular, we probably didn't realise the impact it was having, I'm guessing. So humans are always looking to evolve and try new things and get new technologies. And so I guess in the past, we didn't know the consequences. Now we do. And now that we know this consequence, yes, business has got responsibility. But I think

all of us, although it's hard, I think all of us really do share some of that responsibility. I was going to get to some specific areas. So let's say in people's bathrooms. So, you know, I'd love to just go into what are some of those common sources of plastics in their bathroom? And then what are some possible alternatives? Would that be OK? Was that? Yeah, completely.

So a very common source, and they are phasing out, but you may still have some of it on your shelf, would be microbeads. And microbeads are tiny, tiny little beads of plastic that are used in exfoliating creams most commonly, but also in some makeup products, sun cream. And on the back of the packet,

what it would say is polyethylene or nylon are two of the most common common and polypropylene. They are the three most common ingredients that mean you've got microbeads. So if you are using a product that's got microbeads in it, I'd say, unfortunately, that's flushing a lot of plastic down the drain that's just going to end up in the ocean. So I know the thing about sending it back to whoever made it and asking for a refund. So that would be that would be one one way. Other things with plastic. So cleaning your teeth.

There's so many plastic things actually involved when you're cleaning your teeth, and it's really annoying. But there are companies that are making toothpaste in glass jars, so much more recyclable and often last a lot longer than a toothpaste tube. Bamboo toothbrushes, silk floss instead of plastic floss. Wow. So there are a few ways there. But another one in the bathroom, this also applies in the kitchen,

is buying things in bulk and dispensing them into smaller containers that can be used over and over again. So yes, you might still have a plastic packaging, but you'll have much less of it because you're just buying it all in one go. And hopefully that also saves you money as well because you're buying in bulk and so hair shampoo or hand wash you could either buy in bulk or actually there are shops that are doing in bars now so places like lush online if you if you look on somewhere like etsy or pinterest or yeah or even just type into google plastic free there are are so many companies jumping on the sort of the fact that people want plastic

free. And I guess we could just go back to soap. Could just go back to soap. Which is what everyone was using like 15, 20 years ago. And then suddenly there was this movement for these, you know, these beautiful plastic bottles of hand wash with pump dispensers and things. And actually some of this is just like I guess a little bit like nutritional lifestyle it's like going back to basics going back to what we used

to do is part of that solution isn't it and I think toothbrushes is a big thing for people that they could really make a change and you know I about a year and a half ago I was invited to speak in Iceland at a health conference and I was staying in a hotel there. And I remember this clearly. In the hotel room, there was a gift for, you know, anyone who stays in that hotel has a gift and it was two bamboo toothbrushes. And there was a little note with it saying how seriously they take the environment and they would encourage us to use that.

And that really, since then, I haven't bought a plastic toothbrush. That really, that was just a one-off hotel in, you know, in you know in a city in iceland just making a gentle encouragement to to their sort of guests to make a change and that really changed things for me which is it's quite incredible that isn't it yeah what simple moves i think the tourism industry has both the best and the worst offenders and and actually a lot of tourist companies are realizingising people are coming with them.

They're coming to these hotels to experience a beautiful place. And part of that beautiful place means not having plastic there. And so we're seeing some, there's a Norwegian cruise company that have banned all single-use plastic on all of their ships. And the message that sends to everybody going on those cruises is a really positive one. It's that if we want to visit these beautiful places, if we want to experience the natural world, we have a responsibility to protect it.

And I think that's what matters to everyone. Yes, there's an ethical issue, there's a environmental concern, but we all like enjoying wild nature. We all love beaches. We all love being around the ocean. And we don't want that being cluttered up with plastic. And we can be part of that change by literally changing the things we do every single day.

For those people who think it's a little bit overwhelming, you know, where do I start? Would you bring them back to your four things? I bring them back to the four things and I'd say walk around your house. So the book is filled with bits where you can write down your notes, where you can write a checklist and you can just start to make plans. And I think my advice to anyone who's thinking about going plastic free is start slowly. Very, very similar to making New Year's resolutions. If you make too many, you won't do any of them. So just start slowly and build up. And those first four are a really great place to start. Yeah, they really are. Will, I mean, I would definitely encourage people,

if you're interested in this and you want to know a little bit more, I do think Will's book is fantastic. It's called How to Give Up Plastic, A Guide to Changing the World, One Plastic Bottle at a Time. There will be a link to Will's book and all the things we discussed, there'll be a link to it in the show notes, which will be drchastity.com forward slash plastic. And, you know, there are some really staggering statistics in there, Will. You know, plastics may outweigh fish in the ocean by 2050. Possibly, yeah. I mean, that blows my mind.

Over 90% of seabirds are likely to have plastic in their guts. Yeah, 90% that were tested did have it in their gut. Just incredible. About a third of plastic in the ocean comes from microfibers, which can be released when washing our clothes. And you obviously just talked about those microfibers. And off, I mean, we have covered this, but I remember writing this down,

of the 2.5 billion coffee cups that British people use each year. Hold on, 2.5 billion each year? Staggering number. I mean, I wrote it until I just said it out loud i don't think it quite rang true only 0.25 percent are recycled i think you've given people some great practical tips and as you say if we try and overwhelm if we try and overhaul everything in our lives we'll probably end up doing nothing um so i think those four things uh well actually i always finish off each podcast by asking people for their four tips

so i know we've said it but i really want to hammer home guys if you're thinking about making a change these four things well can you just repeat them for the final time repeat them so it's a reusable coffee cup a reusable water bottle a reusable bag and saying no to straws but can i just add a fifth please do absolutely which is explain to your neighbors your friends and your colleagues why you're doing it that would be my only fifth tip is whatever you're doing in your own life, talk about it to other people. Yeah, I think that's great. And I would add to that, talk to your children about it as well. Because we've got an opportunity to actually bring up our children in a way where they understand the importance of this.

And they understand how damaging single-use plastic can be. And, you know, I've seen a big change in my kids from, you know, from bringing this up. And actually, they will call you out sometimes. If you're, you know, it actually, I've noticed that with a lot of things, you know, if you teach your kids these things, and whether it's lifestyle choices or whether it's, oh, you know, there's nothing else,

we just get that. Daddy, you told me about the plastic and what it does to the ocean. We can't have it. And it's great. So I, like you, encourage those conversations conversations with people but don't forget about kids i think they can be a huge part of this change um and who were those two were they two girls who who encouraged this change in schools amy and ella meek and they're very inspiring and they have set up a whole scheme

which is becoming a plastic free school and they may even come to your school and give a talk if you write to them. Are they on social media? They're on social media, Kids vs Plastic. Kids vs Plastic. I'll put links to all of these in the show notes, but I might contact them myself and actually have a chat to them and I'd love to hear how they've got on and the impact that they're managing to have.

So, yeah, fantastic. Well, I think that's been super, super useful for people to hear. I think I'm going to change a few things based on what I've heard today. You said there was a hashtag, pointless plastic. I think in the back of your book, there's also one saying hashtag, break free from plastic. Is that one that's still being used? That's one that's still being used.

So if you want to learn more about plastic, if you want to see what's happening all around the world, the hashtag Break Free From Plastic, it's many, many groups all over the globe that are doing things to stop from plastic. So it's more, if you're interested in the issue as a whole, absolutely look up that hashtag or use that hashtag if you have stories to share.

And are you on social media yourself, Will? I am. What are your handles? On Twitter, at Art of Activism and on Instagram at underscore of activism and on instagram at underscore will mccallum at underscore will mccallum

so guys look if you are going to make some changes in your habits based on what you've heard from myself and will today please do tag us

on instagram on twitter let us know what you've done if you see something in your supermarket or your cafe or restaurant

you want to raise awareness, you know, feel free to tag us. But we'd love to see that you guys are making changes based upon what you've heard today. And, you know, I know it can be challenging, but it's certainly, certainly very, very much worth it.

Will, thank you so much for your time today. I'm absolutely convinced that our conversation will have inspired all of the listeners to make some of those changes in their own life. Hopefully. Thank you very much for having me. That concludes today's episode of the Feel Better Live More podcast. I know that this conversation has caused me to rethink a few things and given me extra motivation to really try my best to reduce my plastic footprint.

I hope you have taken some inspiration from it as well. Please do consider sharing this episode with your community. You could take a screenshot right now and post it on your social media channels, or simply let your friends and family know. A great way to support the podcast is by leaving a review on apple podcasts acast or whichever platform you are listening to this on make sure you go to the show notes page on my website drchastity.com forward slash plastic we really do spend a lot of time putting these show notes pages together based upon the feedback you have given me. It's a resource that is there for you

to continue your learning experience once the podcast is over. My website also has a free six-part video series that I have created to help give you more energy. You can access all the videos at drchastity.com forward slash energy. The fact that our lives are so busy and stressed these days came up at several times during the podcast. You see, I do see stress as a big driver of ill health and I've written a book called The Stress Solution to help you identify where stress is present in the modern world. And most importantly, I give you plenty of take-home strategies to help you lower your stress levels so that you can live a happier and calmer life. The stress solution is available to order now in both paperback as well as the audiobook, which I am narrating. That's it for today. I hope you

have a fabulous week. Make sure you hit press subscribe and I'll be back next week with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time. Thank you.