Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #38 The Power of Community with The Happy Pear

Episode Date: November 28, 2018

“The most important thing is love and that starts with yourself”   Once beer-swilling rugby players, my guests on this week’s episode are identical twins Stephen and David, who now make up The Happy Pear. They share their incredible journey into healthy vegan living and talk about their desire to start a health food revolution – with the goal of making healthy food and lifestyle mainstream. It all started with a small humble vegetable shop and they now own a chain of natural food shops and cafés in Ireland as well as having their own plant-based food range in the UK. But for The Happy Pear, the cafés were also about creating a community around them, something which they have achieved in a truly inspiring way. We talk about how fundamental community is to our happiness and health. Their story is captivating and their energy is almost tangible. It’s impossible not to feel uplifted, positive and happy in their company – I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did! Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/happypear Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What the Blue Zones say is what's number one in terms of longevity, health and happiness. It's not kale, it's not yoga, it's not swimming in the sea. It's the tribe, it's the tribe of people you surround yourselves. It's the community that's number one in terms of longevity in the communities that live the longest and kind of most wholesome kind of lives, you know. Hi, my name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, medical doctor, author of The Four Pillar Plan and television presenter. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we

currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier because when we feel better, we live more. Hello and welcome to episode 38 of my Feel Better Live More podcast. My name is Rangan Chatterjee and I am your host. Before we get started today, just a quick word to let you know that I am going to be on a mini tour

around the UK in January 2019 around the launch of my new book, The Stress Solution. You can see all the live dates on my website at drchastity.com forward slash events. Do check it out. I really hope that there is an event near you. If not, do jump onto one of my social media channels and let me know where you would like me to speak. New dates are being added all the time. Today's guests are actually two identical twins from Ireland, Steve and Dave, also known as the happy pair. These guys are possibly two of the most positive people I have ever had the pleasure of spending time with. I think their story is one of inspiration from both a health as well as a business perspective. We talk about how sometimes

it's important to follow your heart and go with your own self-belief rather than with the crowd. How changing their diets and lifestyle has transformed their lives. And we also cover the power of community in the creation of health. I felt happy and inspired at the end of my conversation with Steve and Dave. I'm sure you will too. and inspired at the end of my conversation with Steve and Dave. I'm sure you will too. Before we get started, I do need to give a quick shout out to our sponsors who are essential in order for me to be able to put out weekly episodes like this one. I'm delighted that Athletic Greens continue to support this podcast. I believe that the right nutrition is an essential ingredient to having a healthy and happy life.

And whilst I prefer people to get their nutrition from eating food, I recognize that sometimes in today's busy, stressful world, this can be a little bit challenging. Athletic Greens is unquestionably one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that I've come across and contains vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, digestive enzymes, and adaptogens. If you want to take a tasty greens powder every morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend it. For listeners of the podcast, go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, where you will be able to access a special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth

around £70 with your first order. So do go and check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation. So guys, I'm here with Dave and Steve from The Happy Pair. We are actually in my house in Cheshire near Manchester airport. You guys have flown in this morning to come and record on my podcast. Guys, thank you so much for coming over. Gosh, it's great fun. Delighted. And it's great to be sitting on the ground recording this podcast. It makes it even more fun and more authentic. It's more grounded and feels really just lovely. Feels casual. Yeah, it's great because normally I'm, well, I'm often recording these podcasts in London,

either in a studio or, you know, I'm sort of rushing around and I've got a room booked. But it's super nice that we're here in my house. We've got a candle on, you know, next to my son's drum kit we're all just chilling out on the on the floor it's brilliant and it's very quiet it's very calm like it really is there's a lovely atmosphere here it's lovely to be in your house thank you rankin hey no worries or thanks for coming over guys i hope we're not that relaxed where we send people to sleep on this podcast but there's so much i could talk to you guys about. And I think, I don't know, for me, you know, the feedback I get from this podcast is a lot of people are using it as a way of inspiring them

to change their lives and just make small changes. Sometimes often they just hear something that they think, oh, this is great. You know, I'm going to go and do that. And just as you guys were on your way here in the cab this morning from Manchester airport, I was thinking about how I might start this. And I was kind of thinking that there's a lot of information out there in the world these days about health, but there's a difference between information and inspiration. And a lot of people know the right things to do, yet for whatever reason, they don't feel motivated to actually make those changes. But I think you guys have got a really inspirational story as to, you know, how you changed and,

you know, why don't you sort of, well, I guess we could start by you saying, you know, what is the happy pair and where did the happy pair begin? Okay, cool. Will I start with a story? Will I tell a story, tell a little story first and then we can move along. So we're identical twins, both 38, David and Stephen. And who's speaking at the moment? David's speaking here and this is Stephen's voice.

So I guess we grew up in Greystones in Ireland. It's a small little town, about 20,000 people. And I guess we went to school. We went to all boys schools. We have two other brothers. So there's four of us all together. And back when we were 18, we were playing semi-pro rugby. We were doing male modeling. We were, you know, we were very good at golf. We were good kind of, we were good achievers. We were overachievers as identical

twins. And I remember that we kind of, we'd gone to an all boys school. So really we just wanted to go to college and university just to meet girls really. Cause there'd be more schools at university than an all-boys school. And I guess we ended up studying business. And at the time, I remember coming out of university, and the both of us had kind of lost faith in the American dream, that kind of money makes you happy. You know, going into university, we were all about, we wanted to be millionaires before we were 30. We wanted to have a fleet of Ferraris by the time we were 40. We were, you know, we were very materialistic focused and we'd really bought into the whole kind of materialistic thing. And by the time we'd finished university age 21, we had kind of, we kind of thought there must be more to life.

So we ended up going off on this journey of self-discovery separately as identical twins. And I remember I went to go be a pro golfer and I kind of sold my clubs very quickly after that. I went to go be a pro golfer and I kind of sold my clubs very quickly after that. And anyway, we ended up spending a couple of years exploring life and really exploring our own social conditioning and our boundaries. And we ended up, you know, we left as meat, meat, meat and two veg, kind of Irish people, boys that were drank loads of beer and love nothing more than chasing girls. And we came back. We ended up spending two years traveling and we ended up changing our diet. We became vegetarian and then vegan and then got into yoga and meditation and we we tried everything alternative really and then uh one day steven called me up and he says dave we were 21 at the time or 23 i'd say and this is back in 2001 and steve calls me and he says dave i've got this

idea do you want to try and start a health food revolution and i was in in Mexico at the time and I'd been reading all about Che Guevara and I thought revolution was going to be like storming the parliament and placards and like rallying people and whatever. And Steve says to me, Dave, do you want to start a vegetable shop? And I thought this was the furthest thing from revolution ever.

And he says, no, I've got a dream, Dave, just trust me in this. So we came back to our own little town in Greystones after a few years traveling. And we'd left as as I'd said there as kind of we were overachievers we were going places mom and dad were very proud of us the kind of community around us really supported us and thought we were great and we came back as these two long-haired hippies that were wearing trinkets we were wearing polyester shirts we were we didn't use soap because soap was bad, man.

And we were into yoga and we were into, we were eating a vegan diet. So we changed fundamentally. And our kind of main focus was on health, happiness and community. So it was much more about, instead of it being about I, it was more about we. So we started our business and we called it The Happy Pair, but we wanted to use business as a vehicle for social change. And when we first started, I was adamant to start it as a charity because it wasn't about money. And I guess having done degrees and masters in business, it was very much, you

know, money, capitalism. It was very much, that was success. And I was very much anti-money. I wanted to, and we ended up calling it the happy pair, but I was adamant. I wanted to call it, sorry for interrupting. I was just was adamant. I wanted to call it. Sorry for interrupting. I was just going to say, Stephen wanted to call it a different name. And I remember it was one, this is 2004. And I remember we just started our business and we ended up calling it the happy pair

because it was two of us and we were selling fruit. But I remember the sign man there, it was November, it was 2004. It was a sunny Friday evening. And I remember we were sitting back in the cars, watching the shop front

as this sign man was going to put, Declan the sign man was going to put the numbers of our shop across the shop front. We were so excited. And it was so much, it was great, lovely feeling. And then I remember he came back to us after half an hour and he says, lads, you're going to have to call it something else. Like the name just looks, it doesn't look right there. And the name Stephen was adamant in calling it was Flinners Fruit and Veg for social change. So that was where we, what we wanted to call the business.

So it'll kind of tell you a reflection of where we were coming from. And like a lot of people from the local community, we're from a small town and we started our business in Greystones, which is a small town that we grew up. So a lot of mom and dad's friends from the golf club or the bridge club

or, you know, kind of well-established institutes were like, what happened to the lads? Like they weren't going places and here they drive a van and they wear funny clothes and they're vegetarians. There was this kind of well established institutes were like what happened to the lads like they weren't going places and here they drive a van and they wear funny clothes and they're vegetarians there's this kind of idea that they're definitely selling drugs down the back yeah obviously we weren't but it was you know and a lot of our friends even from the rugby days you know we didn't have that shared interest you know we still had the friendship and the depth of friendship having grown up but it was kind of like geez what happened to flinner you

know this type of idea there's so many things that come to my mind as you guys are telling your story. The first thing is that you guys were 21 when you started, you know, feeling that there was something else out there that is this the route to happiness, you know, just making a load of money, you know, going out with lots of girls, drinking a load of beer, you know, that sort of thing, which many people do think at 21. I certainly think, if I think back to me at 21, it probably wasn't dissimilar in many ways. But I certainly wasn't, I don't think I was aware enough of myself at the age of 21 to think that there was something else out there. That's for sure. You know, we were just talking, I was a very keen musician. I still am. And, you know, I still was harboring dreams of actually rock and roll at 21. I wasn't really thinking about changing my diet. I wasn't really thinking

on going on this journey to actually find out what more there is to life. So I'm interested as to what was going on at 21 that made two, you know, beer loving rugby players, you know, go on such an extreme lifestyle change compared to where you were. And the other thing I really want to touch on is you mentioned, Steve, about we, there was no I for you guys. It was always about we and creating a community. And I wonder, is there something about being an identical twin do you think that that plays into that because a lot of us are quite me focused in society particularly these days and you know very few of us are identical twins so you've obviously grown up and we've grown up as a we exactly like in my language

i would regularly use we by accident so there's got to be something in that is what do you think is there something in that that you are identical twins that really led you to have community and we right at the top of what you guys were doing i don't know like like i like to go into your the first part of your question there like we were 21 we'd, I'd finished a master's in business. You'd done a degree in business and finance. And I remember sitting at home, we explored the idea. We always wanted to work together because we'd such fun hanging out.

And we figured, you know, we were kind of a bit very self, we kind of our own ideas about the world and we wanted to go explore them. So we kind of, we were naturally gravitating to start being self-employed or running our own business. And I remember we spent the summer exploring the idea of a kind of environmentally friendly, proper development, property development company. And after a while I was kind of like, ah, not really into this. And I remember sitting at home, mom's kitchen table, it was about November. And it was like, I said to Dave, Dave, like, I don't know, I just, I don't feel that happy in myself. Like I'm going to go away. I'm going to buy a one-way ticket to Canada and I'm not coming back until I know what I'm into and I'm happy. And a lot of the dissatisfaction, like we're identical twins. So you kind of,

you spend your life as a we and competing for love and attention. So it was quite a brave step for us as individuals to go off and be, I'm Stephen and I'm exposed. I don't have David here to protect me. You both went off separately. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To try to one, understand what it's like to be an individual and two, to kind of explore our own social conditioning. Like at the time, we obviously didn't know that. I was just going because I wanted to explore the world. And I remember meeting Uncle Porg and he was like,

what are you doing, lads? Are you going, what's your trip for? And we take the piss going, I'm in search of truth, man. But the reality was we were in search of our own truth, like trying to explore like our social conditioning and how, what was beneath the life we were told to live by society, if you will. And why, you know, in your experience,

obviously you've been doing this for what, 13, 14 years now? Yeah, yeah. To me, I wish I went on that journey at 21 in many ways. Well, not I wish, you you know i kind of very accepting these days of of the way things have played themselves out you know i i presumably wasn't ready to go on that journey at the age of 21 um you know i it does seem that that was in complete contrast to what a lot of your peers were doing certainly so yeah you know and also the community in which you grew up, it seems quite alien what you were doing

compared to everything around you. So how was that? David here. I was thinking what was quite interesting in terms of that was so we left with our community was rugby players. It was beer drinking. That was our pastimes and that was what we did. And we came back and we had fundamentally changed

where our views on life had changed quite significantly. And obviously our old friends didn't really accept us because we didn't have the rugby in common. We didn't have the drinking in common. Like they thought we were really, we changed so much. So setting up our business was our vehicle to create a community. We wanted to create a community of people

around this new lifestyle. So when we started our business right from the start, it was really about inviting people in, creating this community that was more focused about lifestyle, about health, about eating good locally grown organic food and really trying to celebrate this type of thing. So right from the start, we used to do baking competitions. We used to go speak in local schools. We'd go any opportunity to go kind of evangelize this kind of new lifestyle. That was what we kind of started doing. Did you find it difficult? Because I'm just

thinking about this. A lot of the listeners to this podcast from the feedback I get have already made significant lifestyle change or are, you know, on the roads to trying to make those changes. But often they come up with an obstacle, which is their existing network, their friends or their family. You know, they, they sort of, they like them the way they were before, not when they were really careful over what they ate, or, you know, talking about how important it is to think about the wider world and what, and the impacts that all our decisions make on the wider world. And, you know, I wonder if there's anything that you guys can share that you think would be useful for them, because a lot of people find this very, very difficult.

Oh, absolutely. I think one of the keys to any lifestyle change is creating support and community around you, because ultimately we become a product of the five people we spend most time with. And if you're spending time with five people that don't want you to be healthy, don't want you to be whatever the lifestyle change you're trying to apply. So I think even in our case, as Dave mentioned there, we came back fundamentally different people and lots of our old mates didn't, didn't want us to be. How was that? How was that when you met your buddies? I was quite like, what the hell happened to you? They didn't know. We didn't have that. Did you find that hard though?

Well, it was easy because we're twins. So we didn't need the others. We were very happy in our own little world. It was great. So in essence, when we started our business, we had to find new mates. So we ended up hanging out

with a lot of, there was a lot of kind of transient Spanish people around the town. We became friends and then we started anyone that was vegetarian or was into health

or was into community or was into swimming in the sea and wasn't into kind of going out getting drunk. It was like, maybe will you be my mate? Can we be mates? You know, this type of thing. And quite funnily, you know, our whole, our, our, you know, the worlds that we live in, the little bubble we live in now, there's more people than not that don't drink,

that swim in the sea, that do yoga, that do triathlons, that like eat well, that like have very, they're into like, it's just a different kind of community than when I read the newspaper or I go travel and I realize, oh my God, people, you know. So it's funny how our life, this kind of community of people has kind of fleshed it around our little bubble, you know, it's really amazing. Yeah. I mean, it really is incredible to have had the foresight to do that. I think the whole beast about community, I think, is huge because, you know, loneliness is something that is endemic in society these days. And when people talk about loneliness, they often imagine elderly people, you know, living by themselves, you know,

not seeing any other, you know, friends or family for a long period of time and all that kind of stuff. But I can tell you that as a doctor, as a practicing GP, I'm seeing a lot of young guys, particularly between the age of 30 and 40, who are lonely in the sense that, sure, they've got jobs, they're seeing people, but they're not actually making time to see their friends. They're too busy to actually see their friends. They sort of feel in many ways that I don't really need to see them because I can kind of see on Instagram or Facebook what they're up to. So why do I actually need to see them in real life? And, you know, we're learning more and more that being lonely is as harmful on your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, which is just, it's just

profound. And I think that's a big thing about what you guys are about. It's creating that community. You've done that in the village where you grew up. And I'd love to, for you to share all that with the listeners, but what is it, why do you think community is so important? How do you think we can actually, for people listening to this who don't live in a very tightly knit community like you guys do, you know, is there stuff that they can learn about how they can create communities to help them lead happier and healthier lives? Brilliant. Love it. I think the first one, I totally validate with everything which you're saying. I know now one of the leading causes of disease nowadays is not cancer. It's not heart

disease. It's isolation, loneliness and depression. And that's what it's saying is the root of so many of these diseases, as you're saying. And interestingly enough, when we were here, we were on our way over traveling this morning. We were reading stuff about the blue zones. And what the blue zones say is what's number one in terms of longevity, health and happiness. It's not kale. It's not yoga. It's not swimming in the sea.

It's the tribe. It's the tribe of people you surround yourselves it's the community that's number one in terms of longevity in the in the communities that live the longest and kind of most wholesome kind of lives you know so uh yeah i think community steven's got two stories yeah i think like okay where would i go first i i i can tell like ultimately our business was set up to create this community and And two things, or three things anyway, come to mind initially. Like, first thing I think it's saying hello to people and acknowledging them. Like, I remember a friend was telling me, it was Sarah after we were swimming in the sea.

We were back having breakfast in the Happy Pear. And she was telling me about an interesting guy who, you know, lived in just a normal housing estate. And he decided, I wonder what happens if I pull down the wall in my garden and put a swing and a bench in it. And he happened to live on a corner of the road and he found it was amazing. Strangers would come

and sit down at his bench. He'd come out of his house and suddenly he talked to them and they went from being a stranger to someone he knew and then from getting to know them more he was hanging out with them.

They became dear friends. So I think it's, in modern day society, it's just connecting with another human to be more intimate, to show our vulnerability and I think that's ultimately it and I think it's in modern day society, it's just connecting with another human to be more intimate, to show our vulnerability. And I think that's ultimately it. And I think anyone who's listening to this, it's simply like, I know we're on our way down to London later and London can feel

so lonely because everyone's in such a rush. They're so busy, but it's amazing when we're, I guess, approaching London as a foreigner in for two days, you're really excited. You're chatting away to anyone on the tube and like initially say you're on the tube and you pull out, you know, a little, maybe it'll be like a tub of berries and you offer the person next they're like they think it's nearly like poisoned yeah but but slowly if you offer another person another person and four people reject but one person said yes and then you go back to the others and they'll all take one and then suddenly you're talking and it's amazing just a little thing like that can change i can imagine you guys doing that actually because one thing i think is worth sharing

is that I remember when you guys first contacted me on Instagram, it was with a video message and it's really quite striking that because there's something quite unique about that. It was a really happy, engaging message that really struck out, really connected with me because it's, it's just more human. It was really human. And I always remember that. And I always, I remember showing it to my wife and going, God, these guys are great. You know, they're just

absolutely what a lovely, lovely way to get a message. And what you say about the tube as well, I like you guys spend quite a lot of time in London these days, even though I don't live there. And I love going in, but I also love getting out personally. And, you know, I'm, you know, I'm from the Northwest, I'm from Manchester. That's where I sort of grown up most of my life. And I also often in London, when I first started going, I'd chat to people on the tube, hey, how you doing, mate doing well and i know people would just often blank me or sort of think it's so yeah because that's how we roll here up north um and that it's great that you guys persevere with that and make you know all it takes is one person to great conversations in the tube like i've been surprised that i quickly get to something deep and significant

but i know certain things that we've done in our communities. When we first started our business, the fruit and vegetable shop opened the cafe next door and the fruit and veg shop, the door... Can I just give a context? So we kind of told a little bit of a backstory, but today we now employ 130 people and there's three cafes, two shops, a farm, and we have products in about a thousand stores in Ireland

and now over here in the UK in Waitrose. So the business has kind of grown quite a... in about a hundred stores, a thousand stores in Ireland, and now over here in the UK in Waitrose. So the business has kind of grown quite a, it's turned into a business more than just two lads with a little vegetable shop. So just to give a little bit of context. Oh, and we've written a few cookbooks that are bestsellers as well. Yeah, which is incredible. And you guys, you flew over from Dublin this morning and there's a two or three happy pair bags full of incredible goodies, which I've already started munching on and they are fantastic. But what's really interesting is that you brought some fresh coffee today. Now I've actually stopped drinking coffee a couple of months ago for a whole variety of different reasons. And I understand from you guys, you guys

don't actually drink that much coffee either. But what we did do is that I thought, you know what? You guys have brought your coffee over. We're all here together. We're catching up. We're meeting for the very first time. You know, I put on a brew, some coffee, and we sat around together in company having a great catch up and a chat. I totally agree with that. I think it's like when we first started our cafe, I was adamant to Dave, we're not selling coffee.

Coffee's bad. It's a drug. People get too much of it. And then dad said, that's ridiculous. You can't have a cafe and not sell coffee. So for about seven years, I resentfully made coffee and we sold coffee. And then a number of years ago, a friend, a childhood friend, Paul Grime started working with us.

And you know when you meet someone that's so passionate about something, even being around them, feel like wow and he started talking about coffee how like you can have a Kenyan coffee that tastes of blackcurrant you can have like a roasted Brazilian that tastes of chocolate and this type of stuff so I was immediately fascinated and Paul subsequently came to work with us and we started our own roastery and as a chef I'm fascinated with the kind of pursuit of flavor and the controlling of the variables to kind of enhance flavor and I think with coffee although many could see it as a drug or a stimulant or possibly extremely negative, but the impact of sitting down together, of kind of knowing where the coffee came from, how it was processed, how it was roasted, sitting together just to appreciate

it and pay homage to like the journey that coffee bean is on. It brings you back to the present moment. You feel real, there's a sense of gratitude or appreciation and sorry you're wrong there was just one part of that story which steven forgot to mention was was that uh so we hadn't drank coffee in years and our childhood friend paul grimes started and an extremely unbelievably passionate about coffee and when in six months he had steven competing in the irish barista championships awards which he didn't win. He should have won. He won like a number of latte art contests.

And we'd gone from people that hated coffee to people that were just, we really appreciated the kind of art and the artisanal craft behind it. Yeah, and there was a real mindfulness and being in the present moment about what we just did. You know, sitting around the kitchen counter, talking over a coffee. And that's in real contrast, isn't it? To what, what you see in, I don't know if it's the same in your coffee shop or your cafe. And I'd love you to share that in a second. But, you know, as I was just saying, you, you know, I spent a lot of time in London, you guys spent a lot of time in London, when I'm in London, or even frankly, if I'm here in the Northwest of England, it's so common now to be in a coffee shop and everyone's in a rush. Everyone's stressed out. They're waiting in line. They're

often just, you know, trying to answer their emails whilst they're in line. So not paying attention. They could have actually bumped into someone, a good work colleague or a good buddy, but they wouldn't even have seen it because they're so preoccupied with their phones. And again, I'm not criticizing. I do this many times. So I'm not, again, I'm not having to go with people. I'm just, I'm just, it's just an observation that they're doing that. But then often they'll also buy their latte or their Americano to go. And it's very much a, it's a stress experience, you know, get it out. Let me walk. Let me rush to work with my coffee in my hands and i get it people are busy they've got things to do but there's something there's something so

nice about actually being in a coffee shop let's say and ordering it in to stay in taking that 10 minutes to sit down and just savor that coffee and really appreciate where it's from and i think ultimately we're starting the discussion earlier just about when is enough because so much of modern modern day society is all about pushing, about what's next, about striving for it. It's about being productive and progressive and whatever it might be. But I think it's it was a Bob Marley quote that I saw on Instagram this morning that I was like, oh, that's a nice one. It's only when you step out of the race do you actually win the race. And I think it's with life, it's only when you take that moment to stop and appreciate how fortunate we are and how taking that present moment to suddenly just, wow, listen to those birds. They're beautiful. Wow, look at the complexity to this leaf or this coffee that

meant a journey. It took literally every single person on this planet has impacted this coffee being here with me in this present moment. And I think it's only when you can take a moment to sit and reflect upon that, you go, wow, it's, there's a significant. And I think it's only when you can take a moment to sit and reflect upon that, you go, wow. There's a significant... And I think that's the challenge of society nowadays. Like there's never been a time where there's more kind of stimulation, more demands on us, more kind of, we're busier than we've ever been.

But ultimately, this is a challenge, which we personally both find, is that it's constantly you have to catch yourself and go, okay, now now this is where it's at this is life this is everything it's to to breathe to take it easy and when we were discussing earlier when I talked about it's often you meet people that are terminally ill or who've kind of had a near-death experience or something where they really they really appreciate the moment where they're living life differently they're not going around on autopilot like I often am you often are

I'm sure all of us kind of in some form we go in this robotic quick quick more more more where it's only when you can really catch yourself and kind of go okay life is now it's about connection it's about like even just like an example came remember last thursday um like we swim in the sea at sunrise every day and we've kind of gotten the habit of it and it's now there are some gorgeous photos on the happy pads instagram guys if if you if you don't follow them i'd encourage you to follow them and have a look at these beautiful photos it just inspires you sunrise people you know you tend to forget that there's this incredible beautiful thing about nature and it kind of just came about we were dave was walking

when i go into the full story yeah i'll go into a little bit we were quite luddite we were quite anti-tech like running a vegetable shop and being all about creating a happier, healthier world. We thought tech is the antithesis of this. So we were, you know, we didn't have mobile phones and we were asked to do catering at the Dublin Web Summit, which subsequently has become the Web Summit, which is the biggest tech conference in the world. But it was in Dublin in a place called the Mansion House. And we were making juices and smoothies for all these tech people. So we were making juices for this fella called Jack Dorsey that found out something called Twitter and some fella called Reed that found out something called Netflix and some fella called Nikolai who started this thing called Skype. I didn't know what any of these were. I didn't know any, didn't know them from Adam or

Eve. I didn't know, you know, no reference, but the conversations we had were fascinating. And I remember coming out from it going, I must really work out what a Twitter is and what a tweet is and what Skype is and how all these things work. So we got ourselves smartphones and we were working it out. And Dave had, we have five children between us, not together. But Dave was down walking Elsie, his first child, to sleep, as you do at 5am in the morning. Yeah, seven years ago. And the sun rose and Dave took a picture and put it up on social media and people really connected with it because it was a symbol of hope,

new dawn, beauty, nature. You know, it was very simple. There was a purity to it. So we got in the habit of going down to see sunrise because we used to get up at half four to go into the fruit market. So we enjoyed those early hours of the day. And we were down there and I remember it was a rainy day and it was September and it was kind of cold.

And I was down taking a picture of the sunrise and there was a fella there and he said, do you want to get in there, lads? I'll mind your gear. And it was like, and if anything happens, I'll get in and save you.

I was like, I don't really want to do this, but here's a man challenged me. It's like, of course I'll do it. And in I got and I came out and we got chatting and he said his name was Neil and he said,

I'll see you here tomorrow. At the same time, I was like, okay. So I went down the next day and then there was Caroline, another friend, Caroline Barrington. She was in the beach and she came and joined us and I went down the next day and then there was Caroline, another friend, Caroline Barrington, she was in the beach and she came and joined us.

And we swam together at sunrise and then we got out and then afterwards, see you again tomorrow. So we did that for September and then it was like, I wonder if we're going to keep this going. And then Hugo joined us

and then Fran joined us. And then we'd go on the 1st of October and we'd end up jokingly going, oh, we've paid our membership for October. We've got to keep going. And we've certainly done it for about two and a half years. And we, um, every morning, every morning when we're at home and we'd put things up on social media. And I started using Snapchat about two or three years ago. And many people see Snapchat as it's something for younger

generations and it's mostly naked pictures, but there's a lot more to it. It's very, it's very of the moment, like as in I'm going to have lunch now. Does anyone want to come? And someone actually shows up in a physical form. So you're, you're taking this digital platform and it's actually connecting in the physical realm. So remember we used to get hundreds of messages from people going, I'd love to come and join you, but they didn't realize sunrise was at four, you had to get a 4.30 AM. There was a wind that was, would have skinned you. The water was two degrees and the air temperature was zero. So it was quite a bracing experience, albeit phenomenal and very invigorating.

So I remember it was summer and I remember going, this was a Tuesday morning. I put it up on Snapchat. Right, enough of these messages. We're having a public swim rise. Everyone's invited. We're meeting at the Happy Pair at 4.30am because Sunrise was at 4.50. And this was the big hook. There's going to be free porridge and we're going to bring tea. So I met Dave that Thursday morning at 4am to prepare the

porridge. And I wasn't sure, you know, I thought there might be five people. There might be Raj, Mark, maybe a few others, maybe the usual crew. And we couldn't find a small pot. So we ended up cooking a big pot and we walk out at 4.30am and there's about 150 people. We walked in the middle of the road, down to the sea, the sun rises, it was a beautiful experience. And subsequently we've probably had 500,

700 people do it, like big ones. And now that's for these kind of big public swim rise events, which we've done, really just to celebrate community and the simple act of kind of, you know, the sunrise,

it's such a symbol of hope and dawn and a new beginning. And there's so many people that thought that are part of the community on social media that follow us on instagram and whatnot that they kind of go oh like it's a great opportunity to come along meet like-minded people and enjoy in this basic simple thing of swimming at sunday and nowadays pretty much every day of the week we'll get people from all over the world come and join us you know like there there was a guy from alaska stopped over a week there was a guy from boston came over because it's a thing and people know it's going to be happening and when you guys are in, like there, there was a guy from Alaska stopped over a week. There was a guy from Boston came over.

Because it's a thing and people know it's going to be happening and when you guys are in town, you will be there at the ocean in the morning. Yeah, down at sunrise. And there's a lot

of cross demographics. There could be Linda and Detty. I think Detty just turned 69. Linda's 70. There could be Neil who's like 45. There's a great cross section of people who come and do it.

And like, although you swim in the sea, it's cold. So it brings you back to the present moment. It's quite bracing. You forget what you're stressing about. You come out and then you share tea with people. You have great chats, great friendship, great joy. That although in winter it might seem like quite a stoic pursuers,

a kind of crazy activity, on the way down, it's raining, it's miserable. You're going, am I crazy? Like, this is ridiculous. And then you come back going, oh my God, that was amazing. Do your kids ever come with you? Yeah, yeah, kids do. Kids do come with us. But I was going to say two things on that is like,

we often call it Dr. C because it's just the best medicine there is of all. We'll often go down and you'll kind of say, like, I don't always like the person getting into the C, but I love the person coming out because it's such a like it brings you back to the present moment like nothing else and there's lots of media medical studies now backing this up and yeah cold water therapy in terms of invigorating your immune system your your whole kind of body and your mental health primarily really yeah this is quite a bit of work going on about how it could be a treatment for depression as well, potentially. And it's just incredible.

There's so many things to talk about. I guess you have created a community where not only yourselves, but many other people also go into the ocean every morning. In Ireland, even in the winter, which is just incredible in itself but I'm interested on an individual level you know what benefits have you felt in your own life from having that sort of morning ritual I think it's one of the highlights of our days honestly and I can say me personally like sometimes you'll go oh geez it's so early I don't feel like it and it can be challenging and then you'll walk down to your meet there might be a couple of people at the shop and we'll make tea. We usually make a four liter flask of tea

and we'll bring some little snacks because it's as much the community and the chats after are as important as the sea. And we'll walk down and you'll kind of go, geez, are we crazy? And then you'll suddenly

turn around the corner to the beach and you'll see the light, you'll see the dawn, you're like, you'll suddenly, my spirits will lift, we'll get down to the beach, there'll be,

it's this sense of overcoming this obstacle, we're getting in this cold water together and uh and you'll meet people on the beach and in we go what you do when you're not at home so you travel a lot as part of your business and and what you guys are doing um like let's say this morning for example you well i'm guessing it's 3 30 you kind of let go of the routine and you enjoy the sense of break from it. Like today, we got up at 4, I was up at 4am, met Dave in the shop and we went in and didn't even do handstands. I watched Iron Man, a Marvel movie, on my

phone and it was so enjoyable. You know, just mixing it up and just like I guess in modern day society, if you're really focused and driven, you're reading productivity books and you're very focused on self-help books and you're meditating and you're doing everything. But it was so lovely just to watch, you know, some total fantasy movie. And it was so wonderful. But saying that in terms of today, like we're traveling, we're going down to London later

today. I'm sure at some stage we'll find somewhere to do handstands or do yoga because movement, like in our day, in the various forms, if we don't get a swim swim in we'll certainly do handstands for a bit we'll probably stretch i have just seen you guys do handstands in front of me in my living room it's incredible and i hope because my son's on half term he's not in at the moment i really hope that he gets to come and actually watch that because daddy you know i can't do them i'd love to be able to do them so i'm hoping you know watching you two do it might inspire him to go wow you know that's a pretty cool thing that someone actually did it in real life in my living room. Do you know what I mean? In terms of making it practical, it wasn't on YouTube or it was actually, I saw it with my own eyes. So that's the selfish part of me. I want, I'd love my son

to actually see that. Um, but can I just ask, you know, a lot of people, including myself, will be listening to that and going, you know, that just sounds idyllic to me. I would love, you know, especially as I'm getting older, I'm realizing more and more that, you know, I'm very proud of what my mum and dad's, you know, how they brought me up. I think they did a fantastic job. They were immigrants here in the UK, you know, trying to literally give me and my brother as the best possible life, like, like most parents, to be fair. And, you know, I just don't think growing up, I had a lot of exposure to nature with my family, you know, I, you know, maybe at school or whatever sports we were doing. Sure. But it wasn't a big thing. And I'm realizing more and

more, particularly as I get older older that i'm craving you know swimming in the ocean you know i i've rarely done that in my life like rarely done that yeah i like i've taken it running recently and i i don't run on roads i'll go and run in the local park or in this local forest i'll go for a run there and it just it's a different experience and i'd love to um to bring my children up with that real connection to the natural world. Connection to the natural world, exactly. When so much of how we live, particularly in urban environments, is disconnected from the natural world, including the food that we eat.

So much of the time we're disconnected. But I guess on one level, people might go, that's fantastic, but I don't live near the ocean. you know, people might go, that's fantastic, but I don't live near the ocean. So is there something about a morning ritual, whether you have access to the ocean or not? I mean, is there something about having a sort of defined morning ritual that sets the right tone for the rest of the day? Yeah, I think brilliant. It's something that we work really hard with. I think happiness is something that unites us all as humans. And it's something as a father, it's all I really want for my children. I want them to be happy. I don't, and obviously be respectful, not disrespect anyone, but to be happy and fulfilled in their life. And I think one of the cornerstones of happiness is obviously the sleep and you go through it in your book. Very good, Rangan. But one of them is movement. And I think it's something that we've created and we've had to work quite hard

to create a morning routine and ritual around it because back many years ago, you get up, you check your emails, you quickly get, it's very easy to get stuck into work. But it was only a number of years ago we went over to Cambridge and we sat with a man called Charles Handy.

David had written a thesis on him. He's written a number of kind of business philosophy books because his father was a vicar. So he's quite philosophical approach on business. And he was 84. And we went to meet him to kind of discuss what is enough. And like we'd opened three cafes and we'd borrowed a sum of money and we talked about opening five, 10 more cafes.

And we were kind of wondering like, what is enough? What's true success? And it was only through that conversation that I realized true success was being able to get up, go train with Dave, whether it be handstands, yoga, gymnastics, going for a run, whatever it might be, some form of a training for an hour, go for a swim at the sea at sunrise, come back, have brekkie with my kids, take my kids to school and anything else was a bonus after that. But that start, it felt really grounded. I felt very connected to myself. And I think although we may, it might be perceived that we live in an idealistic environment,

and although we do, when we travel to London, there's so many wonderful parks and so many incredible people that social media, albeit gets a bad rap, a wonderful ability to connect with people if you reach out. And I think it's a matter of like regularly in the morning when we wake up, say I wake up at five o'clock in the morning, I don't want to train, especially now it's October, it's colder, it's darker. It's like, I don't want to train. But if I've agreed to meet Dave and Raj at 5.30, I'll meet, I'll show up. Community, right? It's social support and social accountability.

And I think that's a key point there. And then when you show up and you meet Dave and Raj and you don't feel like training it's the lads like I got to bring my game I don't want to look bad in front of the lads so so you end up helping and supporting each other in a nurturing environment to have a laugh and to be better versions of yourself and then I mightn't feel like meditating but Raj and Dave do so it's like okay we all meditate and afterwards I always feel better I never go and it really trying to make lifestyle change by yourself can be challenging difficult yeah it can be incredibly challenging and I remember you know we were just um we were just having coffee now just chatting about the those BBC one series that I did doctor in the house where I went in to help families with a whole variety of different health issues.

And I realized more and more, obviously a very, very luxurious opportunity in many ways to actually be and actually meet the whole family because often in my surgery, I'm only seeing one person in the family. But any change that I would try and implement with, let's say say the sickest person in

that family I'd always try and encourage everyone to do it together because I said actually it's going to be very hard for you individually to make lifestyle change if you're trying to let's say reduce your sugar intake for argument's sake yet your husband is having three miles per day you know on the sofa next to you while you're trying to resist, you know, that is destined within days, there's going to be, there's going to be a problem with that. Yeah, exactly. And I think there is something about community. If you're, if you're lucky enough to have it, but but I guess the wider point there is, you know, social media has come up a bit, it comes up a lot now in the press, you know, it's not all bad. It's not all good. You know, it depends how we use it. And you got,

as you just said, we wouldn't have met each other without social media. Yeah. Before we talk about social media, can I tell one little story, which is related on the community and the health front? It was, uh, so as we said, we started with the idea, dealistic idea of creating a healthier happier world back in 2004 and we used to do cooking demos upstairs in a restaurant and tried to teach people kind of talk about health and people would come along and they wouldn't really change they were kind of little evening episodes and you'd walk past but the chip shop the next day and you'd see people there that were at the course and they'd look guilty when you're walking past so you'd see

you weren't really affecting much change so we kind kind of, we put our heads together. It was, this is back in 2008. I was reading Dean Ornish's book, you know, Dr. Dean Ornish. And he was one of the guys that showed in clinical trials that you could reverse a lot of the indicators for heart disease. So I was reading this and Steve says, why don't we come up with a course that you can measure the improvement in your health? And he had just been talking to someone on Weight Watchers who was measuring their weight. And he said, let's come someone on Weight Watchers who was measuring their weight. And he said, let's come up with a course to see if we can reverse indicators for heart disease. So I went down to the local doctors

and I asked Angela, the nurse, I said, Angela, we need a nurse. We want to do this experiment. Will you help us? And she said, sure. We put up signs around the shop and we said, reverse heart disease. We said, lose weight, skinny, sexy, whatever.

And here we were, two lads that were running a vegetable shop that were chefs and uh so anyway people came along we said it was free and we had 20 guinea pigs signed up they came along the first night angela measured everyone's cholesterol weight and blood pressure so we had three starting measurements of our study you know quote unquote study they came upstairs to us and we taught them how to cook it was a lifestyle course so we taught them how to cook you know porridge for lifestyle course. So we taught them how to cook, you know, porridge for breakfast, chia seed puddings. It was, it was eating fruit salads. It was, it was basic, simple stuff for breakfast. For lunch, it was making vegetable soups and salads. Dinners were pad thais and chilies and dals and curries. And it was all plant-based. We put them on a completely whole food plant-based diet for a month. That was it, four weeks. And they came

once a week to us and we really supported them with the food because everyone was eating meat and too veg. And it was a big shift for a lot of people. And we put on videos of men in white coats and women's in white coats that were doctors who were kind of supporting it all. And it came to the last night, I remember, and me and Stephen were, we were really nervous because we thought if this doesn't work, it's going to go against everything we stand for. We're going to have to, you know, shut up shop and go get a job in a bank or something. You know, we really felt we were putting our lives and livelihood on the line.

And thankfully, this is back in 2008, there was a 20% drop in everyone's cholesterol in the course. Everyone's blood pressure regulated. They all lost weight. And it was incredible. And on the back of that, we did the classroom course for the next couple of years. And subsequently, it got so much media attention, we couldn't do the classroom course anymore that we built a classroom course for the next couple of years. And subsequently, it got so much media attention,

we couldn't do the classroom course anymore, that we built an online course. And now we've had more than 15,000 people do it in 52 different countries. Can people still do that today? Yeah, yeah. It's our online happy heart course, which it just gets such good results over four weeks. And it's all about lifestyle.

It's about simple. It's everything that you talk about in your book. Okay, can people access it on your website so guys i will put a link to that on the show notes for this episode which is going to be at drchastity.com forward slash happy pair if you just go to that after the podcast or even now you'll be able to see everything with we're talking about you can you can get links straight on to that course if you want to sign up for that one of the bits that makes that course sustainable is community it's the fact that there's many people doing it together at the same time and that they support one another then they see each other doing it and that's

ultimately i think to bring it back to if you do want to make any lifestyle change it's you need the support of the community around you like as i know when we changed our diet and our lifestyle significantly and we came back to our hometown and lots of people were like, what happened to the lads? Like, my God, we had to reach out to kind of other people that I knew that were into health and go, listen,

can we meet up and like, you know, you create a new community. And that's what we had to do. And that's, you know, are you still in touch with your rugby buddies? We'd still,

I'd still see lots of them. And although we don't necessarily have the same, let's say lifestyles you still you've spent you've spent 20 years growing up together so there's great respect and a laugh together but you just you don't go to the pub and have pints most of them have kids so you well now they kind of accept us because you know it's validated by society that what we're doing is okay so now it's easier but at the start it was certainly a bit because you're right it is becoming a lot more acceptable now it is you know it incredible for me, very gratifying as a doctor to see that lifestyle is being spoken about a lot more. It's a lot more socially acceptable. It's not necessarily seen as I think maybe 10, 15 years ago. It's very much where you can either enjoy your life or you can be healthy.

or you can be healthy. And I think there's been a big shift where I think a lot of people have started to realize, hey, you can have both. And I certainly, I think I'm super enjoying my life and I love, you know, paying attention to my lifestyle.

They all sort of, it all feeds each other for me. And I guess it's the same for you guys. And I think quite interesting on that topic, there's, you know, like health, people get caught up with the idea that it's only, it's a one track.

It's a certain, like you do yoga, you eat kind of lots of fruit and veg, you meditate, you go to bed early and that's health. But we all know people that are 90, 95 years old that have drank whiskey. They ate an awful diet. They smoked 50 cigarettes a day, but they laughed so much. They surrounded themselves with people that really lifted them up. They had a really close knit community of people. So I think health is, it's not necessarily these kind of topics, which we're talking about. There's so many factors to it. And food is just one aspect to it, kind of meditation, mindfulness, community, all these, so many factors that make us really ultimately a happy, healthy human. You're right. And I think, you know, one thing I'm trying to do with this podcast is take health outside the health sphere. So what I mean by that is, I think for far too long, we've, you know, we've got our lives. And on the side,

oh, we've got our health, we sort of need to eat a bit better, need to kind of pay attention to that salad, you know, because it's such a pain, I've kind of got to do it, I'm getting a bit older now, all that kind of stuff. And I, I actually believe in that health is relevant to each and every single one of us because the better you feel in yourself, the more you get out of life. And, you know, different things will make different people feel good. But I genuinely, my belief is, and I see it day in day out with my patients, is that once you can inspire them with a nugget of information that really connects with them so they want to start making change, it's very much like a domino effect. And it's never just one thing. That's why I remember when we were talking before about this four pillar approach that I talk about. And the reason I talk about it is because I kind of feel that health is a different thing to everyone it's not the same to everyone and some people

like you guys you guys started on food and that was your journey but now you're you're yes you're talking about food still but you're talking a lot about community and happiness whereas i've got to be honest i've had patients who didn't want to start with food they wanted for them getting more physically active first was the trigger that was the first domino for them that led them to sleeping better which then they thought hey i wonder what happens if i change my diet yeah so we've everyone goes out on it on many many gateways to access the i guess feeling a better version of yourself or feeling more connected yeah i think one thing that you said about nature and to try to be more connected with a natural

environment, one of the things that I definitely get out of spending more time in nature is I'm reminded that we live in this very, I guess, modern society, or many of us do, where it's very humans are the dominant species and we forget we're mammals and we're part of, we're at the mercy, I guess, of the planet and our environment in which we live in. It's only when you spend time with nature do we remember our own insignificant and that we're part of this greater system. And I think it's when we remember our own insignificance, we remember our own mortality and we remember, wow, we're part of a greater system and we must play our part. At least that's what it reminds me. And I think it's very beneficial for us all to do that. And I was just going to say, just to bring this back

to relevance, is that as mammals, you know, and back to your fourth pillar plan, I think something, movement is such a fundamental thing to one's happiness. And something which we use as a basic measurement. I remember I was sitting having breakfast with mom probably about six months ago. I was up in her house and she got this, our mother's 67 and she got this Fitbit. And I was like, oh, that's just for people of your age, mom. That's not for me. I'm like, I'm a fit ambassador for health. And I'm sitting there and she said, I'm asking her how many steps she got.

And she said, oh, I got 23,000 steps yesterday. Oh, my average is about 20,000. And I had no reference to that. I thought, oh, that's just for you, mom. Good on you. And she said it. She says to me, I think your phone actually counts the steps for you. And she was looking around at my phone.

She said, oh, look, look, there's this health app. So I pressed the health app. And she's going back to my step and she says oh jeez dave you only got 7 000 8 000 and i realized oh my god like your mother's getting more efficiency than you out of it so so something which we do is and this is like we live busy active we're like ambassadors for health and 10 000 steps i think is such a basic thing that everyone can measure whether you've got a sitting job whether you've got a moving job it's a basic measurement that I think as mammals what they're saying now which you'll totally validate is that sitting is the new smoking like sitting is the

thing that's causing as much disease and disharmony in our bodies and I think what they're saying now it's not it's not exercising half an hour a day or an hour a day vigorously it's consistently moving throughout the day when they look at these blue zone areas where people do live these vast long lives that are wholesome and fulfilled these people live lives of inconvenience where they move and that's the key yes like cycling throughout the day like moving in and out there they're consistently active they grow their own vegetables they do they live a life of inconvenience and i think we've got to proactively do this in society. And that's, I mean, that in a nub is why we're struggling so much because life is convenient now.

Oh yeah, you get up, you turn on the heat and you turn on the cooker, you cook your parts. We strive for that as humans. We've always looked for what's the easy, how can we make that easier? To be as energy efficient as possible. Yeah, and that's why we, one of the reasons we've evolved so well

and that's why we, you know, one of the reasons we've evolved so well and we, you know, that's why we're here today. But in some ways that sort of in the current environment, that's actually potentially proving problematic because, you know, as I've said before in podcasts, even gathering food now, you know, our phones are here. We could literally go on there, go on an online shopping app and within hours. The food's delivered. You know, we could just still be sitting here and food will come here and we never ever been able to acquire food as humans with that ease yeah and so it's that whole inconvenience disconnection as in who grew our food how was it grown how was it cooked how was it served and often then we'll eat it looking at our phones so it's again i think the more we can eat it looking at our phones. So it's again, I think the more

we can appreciate the connection to our food or to more of life, the more we're going to feel whole and more connected without going too ephemeral and philosophical. And we don't mean to come across preachy in any sense where everything we're saying here, we're doing our best to live a life like that. We're saying it as much to ourselves. Absolutely. You know, but there was a podcast I listened to very recently by Zach Bush. I think you said you listened to it too. And he was asked a very good question at the end. He was said, what would you do if you were Surgeon General, you know, doctor, the Surgeon General of America. And he said, the one thing which I do, he referenced Israel. He said, Israel have an amazing army because everyone has to spend an obligatory one

year after school in the army. And he said, if put on surgeon general i would make everyone to spend one year working on an organic farm because therefore they would appreciate where food came from they'd appreciate a connection with the land with nature and i think from the back of that it would catalyze so much positive change within our societies and i thought that was just wow what yeah it is it's incredible you're right and and i think that's the missing piece when we talk about what a healthy diet is you know it's like we're still talking about the components you know and often we're talking about fat v carbs which which again i'm not a huge fan of that debate yeah um you know i've really evolved my thinking within that within that field and i and

i sort of think that you know we've been quite reductionist it's like where is that food coming from what's the bigger picture but i think one thing is worth is worth mentioning because you guys i think all the cookbook is completely vegan it's our first one when we first started our business we never labeled it as vegetarian or even vegan it was just it was for healthy food because in a small we're from a small town of i think at the time there was about 10,000 people in the village and if you opened a vegan restaurant, good luck. Like back 14 years ago. So we labelled it

as just a healthy food place and people would come in and they'd order, it'd be chickpea curry but they'd see chicken curry and you wouldn't tell them. So you'd give them their chickpea curry or what they thought was chicken curry

and they'd eat it and they'd go, that was lovely and then they'd come in again and you'd see them next week and they're getting a shepherdless pie. They thought it was shepherd's pie and it was only after about a month they might come up to you and go, that was lovely. And then they'd come in again, you'd see them next week and they're getting a shepherdless pie. They thought it was shepherd's pie. And it was only after about a month they might come up to you and go,

geez, I never even realized it was vegetarian. And then a few months later you catch them doing yoga. So it's amazing how food can be just an entry point. And I think it's labels like that can be quite binary and separate people. But ultimately with, and what I was just going to say, just answer the question is our first two cookbooks were vegetarian rather than vegan and it's only our recent cookbook which came out in June

is fully vegan. It's 100% vegan recipes and our message is not to make anyone vegetarian or vegan. It's not to isolate. It's really to include and ultimately all the leading research says the more whole foods you can eat the better.

It's not about vegetarian. It's not about vegan. It's really about having a body that's healthy and functions well. I've got to say, Dave, one of the things that has really resonated with me about your approach, and what I've heard you guys speak before, is that it's not preachy. And it's not, you know, excluding people who eat meat, for example. You know, it's always the impression I've got because, you know, yes, you are both vegan. But this is not a vegan podcast. This is not

a paleo podcast. This is not a, this is not an anything podcast in the sense that it's not about labels. It's about being open-minded and you guys have found that for you, that is working incredibly well, but I'm assuming that you've got friends who eat meats and, you know, I don't know what your family do, for example, but I just find find it i think there's a lot of people think these days you've got to you know once you're in that in a certain club and you've marked out your territory that's it and you can only you can only hang out with other people who are that way inclined and you know what i mean and and it's but i've never got that impression of you guys that it's like no i think ultimately we're all going to die.

And as much as me even saying that can come across pessimistic or nihilistic, ultimately I think once we accept our own mortality, we're going to live a more fulfilled life. But irrespective of what our dietary choice is, we're going to die. And even if you're vegetarian or vegan, you're not going to get into the VIP section of heaven or whatever it is you believe. So I think it's about doing our best and accepting our own limitations and enjoying it. Because there's no point you sitting there eating a bowl of kale going i hate kale

eat the burger and enjoy it you know that way so that's a really good point actually and i think it's not about exclusive like food can often be about it can be almost like religion where people can get very up on their high horses and this is the right way to eat and it's like food is just one part like it really is and I can say this from the point of view of having really explored it and gone into raw vegan and got into fasting and cleansing and living behind a waterfall in a cave with a whole lot of yogis in Costa Rica

and really getting into, really exploring, seeing if you could eat yourself to enlightenment, which I realized you couldn't and getting very, not yet anyway, getting very kind of too, as you use the word,

too kind of microscopic on things and realizing that food is just one part of, and it's only one small little part of being a happy human. Like there's so many factors to it. Yeah. Yeah, there really are. And in saying that, I think eating like as a society, we need to eat more fruit and veg. Like we say this from the point of view of people that have eaten a whole food vegan diet for 17 years. And really, I think it's about eating more fruit and veg and that's the name of the game and whole foods.

Yeah, and it's... And starting where you're at. And starting where you're at. You're absolutely right. I mean, I think I've always thought about this as a doctor. You know, as a doctor,

I've got to be inclusive. I have any patient that walks through my door, whatever their ethical choice, whatever their own preference, I feel a huge responsibility that my job is to help them within that framework you know wherever they're i've got to meet them there and so i can't really as a doctor i i don't feel i can be part of a you know a religious dietary tribe you know i kind of feel i've got to cover all bases because

actually i'm i'm a doctor to help whatever patient walks through my door. I want to be able to help them if they, you know, they have a strong attachment to eating meat and fish, uh, let's say, then I want to be able to help them around that. If someone comes in and they want to be vegan and you know, they've got, and I do have some patients and I have often with some of them felt actually, I kind of feel that maybe some animal protein may help you for a couple of months or a couple of years to really, you know, let's say with an iron level or a low B12 level. And then again, you know, this is, this is not the podcast to go into the debate on supplementation and all that kind of stuff. But

I've realized I've got to meet people where they're at. And that's why, you know, I, you know, one of the recommendations I made in my first book was to eat five different vegetables a day of different colors, if you can. Brilliant. Why? Because I think as a society, as you guys have said, we're not, most of us are not eating enough plant foods. Yeah, totally. That applies. And I know there's a lot of people who follow paleo who listen to this podcast, a lot of people who follow

what would be called a low-carb diet who listen to this podcast. And guys, you know, I'm really keen to emphasize this. I'm going to be getting a whole variety of people on this podcast. You know, I'm going to get people from the vegan community, the paleo community, the low-carb community. Why?

Because I want a whole selection of different voices to help, you know, give information, give information give perspective and ultimately you guys have to choose what resonates what resonates with you but i've got to say that in nearly what 18 years now i think of seeing patients i've got to say most of my patients i don't think eat enough vegetables yeah i think can i say one thing sorry for good okay we've currently got dave and c fighting over the mic. There's only one mic that they're sharing, just in case you guys can't see.

It's better that we share a mic, otherwise we'll talk over each other. But I think, you know, eight out of 10 Irish people and UK people do not eat enough fiber. And I think fiber is a vital macronutrient that people don't discuss enough. And I think fiber, as you know,

like even in Ireland, like say we were trying to launch a healthy eating program in schools. And I went down to my daughter's school. This is May's school. And I was sitting down with the principal, who was Sister Kathleen. And she'd been principal there for, it could have been 40 years. An amazing kind of stalwart.

And we were discussing the program and I was saying fiber. And as soon as I said fiber, she lit up and I was like, I've never seen a nun like get really turned on by fiber. And she said, it's amazing. Over my 40 years here, it's only in the last five years, every single week, there's about three children go home sick due to constipation. And she said, this was never a problem. But she said, it's only in recent years as diet has changed massively that people aren't getting enough fiber, that constipation has become an issue. So I think most of us need to eat more fiber and fiber, three vital functions just to reduce it. You know, weight loss, people don't realize that fiber is connected with weight

loss because you'll feel more full and generally on lower calories. Second one, obviously digestion. And third one is immune system. It's a prebiotic. So I think we all need to eat more fiber and even fiber you get in fruit, veg, beans, legumes, and whole grains. So as in plant food, but even recent research from the University of Oxford, it was earlier this year, trying to find out what was the most important factor you could do to reduce your environmental impact. And it wasn't, you know, electric cars. It wasn't not flying. It wasn't solar panels. It was to try and eat a vegan diet.

And by that, it's not to be exclusively a vegan. But if all of us can just try to eat more whole foods, we're going to feel better. And also the environments with which we depend on is going to feel better too. I don't know if you've seen much on the Hadza tribe in Tanzania. They're a modern hunter-gatherer tribe. They're still living a lifestyle that's relatively untouched by modernity and how we're all living these days, you know, in terms of their medication, how they live, their hunter gatherers. And what's incredible is that they, they've been studied a lot in terms of, you know,

they have very low rates of disease. They're very physically active and they have about 100 to 150 grams of fiber every single day. Right. So they're hunting. Yes, they're hunting animals and eating it, but they're eating a ton of plant food. So to put that in context, the average British person gets about 15 grams of fibre a day. Yeah, and the guidelines say we should be aiming for 30 grams,

but these guys are eating 100 to 150 grams. And one of the... They must be eating planks of wood. Well, they're having lots of berries and they're having lots of cheebus, lots of plants. Whole grains, legumes. Yeah, I'm not sure they're having whole grains, but they're having lots.

The point is, is that they're getting their fibre in by what they have access to in their environment. Now we, you know, I'm not hunting and, you know, going around Waitrose, I'm not really sort of hunting for my food. I'm sort of going to the aisles that I like

and getting my foods. But one of the big things about fiber is, as you said, it's a prebiotic, which means it is the primary fuel source for all these gut microbes inside us. And it's the gut microbes eat that fiber and the byproducts of that has incredible benefits for our overall wellbeing and our immune system health.

So I think, you know, whatever, anyone listening says, whatever your preference is on diets and wherever you are currently, most of us can benefit from Creason fiber. I'm just going to say one thing there, guys, is, and that's just, many people also have Irritable Bowel Syndrome, IBS. And for some people, some of these fiber sources don't suit them that well when their gut is already compromised and that's that's you know we can't really go into that today but a lot of people with ibs will say yeah but when i have this stuff you know i get more bloating and that's a slightly separate issue which you know my take on that is that we have to fix the underlying cause of the ibs at that moment your gut may be compromised where some of these fiber sources may not agree with you so well.

It's almost like, just to give an example of that, it's like if I break my arm and my arm is in a cast and for six weeks I can't reuse my arm, the muscle atrophies. And it's a bit like if we've grown up eating a Western diet, our stomach, that's quite naturally low in fiber. Our digestive system isn't used to a lot of fiber. So if you kind of shift to starting eating a diet that's quite naturally low in fiber our digestive system isn't used to a lot of fiber so if you kind of shift to starting eating a diet that's very high in fiber it's a bit like your your arm after it's been in a cast and you take it out it's lost muscle it's weak it needs rebuilding so for someone that's wants to eat more fruit and veg you might have to do it slowly starting and as you're saying people with IBS in particular but can I say two more things on that you can I was hanging out with a friend Dr. Alan Desmond and he's a gastroenterologist there last week. And he was saying that 55% of calories in the UK

and Ireland are coming from hyper-processed foods. So that's ultra refined food. So I think as, as nations, the British, Ireland and the UK to eat more fruit and veg is so fundamental. It really is. He also gave me the statistic. He said one in 17 men nowadays in the uk are going to get bowel cancer and he said it was one in 25 women in the uk like those statistics nowadays so i think fiber is imperative as you said this tribe that eat 150 grams to even get 30 grams is a huge start and ideally you'd even get it up to more you know yeah absolutely hey guys look we you know i'm so enjoying our chat i think we've if you include our coffee conversation which you didn't record um you know we've probably been talking about it for about three hours now and there's plenty plenty more we could do but just

to sort of try and bring this you know wrap it up and bring it to a close in some way um your your final book your well your most recent not your final but your most recent book i'm sure there will be more coming at some point, is called Recipes for Happiness, which I think is a brilliant name. And, you know, happiness, I think happiness is something that has been spoken about a lot in the media these days. Everyone's sort of searching for happiness. And I guess my goal with this podcast is to really inspire people and help empower them so that they go away each week feeling that they are the architect of their own health you know they're in control of what happens to them so I wonder if you guys could finish off with some

tips for happiness now I normally ask for four tips but it doesn't have to be four it can be less and you guys have to five you can go for five you don't have to fight over them you can both share. And you guys have to go for five. You don't have to fight over them. You can both share it with, you know, whoever wants to say it, but just some tips, which hopefully can inspire people as they finish off this podcast and to go and make some change. Okay. To make this as practical as we could, here are our five tips for health and happiness. Number one, eat more fruit and veg. We just went through it. It's most people don't get enough fiber and it's not an all or nothing type thing. It's really fruits, veg, beans, legumes, whole grain, nuts and seeds. We've got 400 recipes on YouTube. They're simple. They're easy. They're five minute dinners. Some of them, we have a chickpea curry recipe that has more than a million views. It takes five minutes to make. It's really high

in fiber. So it's making simple changes. It's not jumping into all or nothing. Yeah. And it's starting where you're at. So if you eat meat 14 times a week, maybe try doing it 13, just baby steps. So that's point one, try to eat more fruit and veg. Point number two, we're mammals. We need to move. If we don't move, we don't feel happy. Our primary fuel source, most people, when they hit that three o'clock slump, what do we turn to? We turn to coffee. We turn to sugar. We turn to alcohol. Some of us turn to cocaine, some sort of a stimulant. So I think our primary fuel source isn't food. It's actually oxygen. Then it's water. And only then is it food. So I think if you are looking to get more energy, it's a question we're regularly asked, what food should I eat for more energy? And we say exercise. So try to move. And a simple

metric is to get 10,000 steps a day. You're smart, we'll measure it. And if you have an office job that's kind of by nature quite sedentary, drink lots of water. It means you've got to get up and go to the toilet. So it means you're moving and you're rehydrated. I love it. I put that in my book as well. It's the same thing. So drink more water. You'll get it when you have to pee more. Yeah, I agree. Point number three, we talked about it quite a bit, is community. Ultimately, we all want to feel connected. We want to feel part of something. We want to feel a sense of belonging. And social media, as we were about to talk about, it gets such a bad rap of being isolating and whatever, but it can be such a positive tool to connect people. Like we wouldn't have met you today if we didn't connect via social

media. So I think whatever means it is to make you feel to connect with the humans and you might have to proactively cultivate it. It's about finding your tribe. So every single person listening to this podcast and every single person on this planet is unique, weird, idiosyncratic, special,

whatever way we brand it. But it's to find your tribe, to find people that share your values or that are passionate about the things that you are. And the internet, as we mentioned,

can get many bad press, but it also can make you find niche. You can find someone that's into tiddlywinks, any weird, obscure thing. Find people that are like you, connect with them. You'll feel more together, connected, united, and you'll feel happier. So I think community, I think that's one of the best things you can do for your immune system and your mental health as well, community. Point number four, what's one of your four pillars is sleep. And as kind of men that grew up in very alpha environments with four boys,

all boys schools, dad was our role model. Like sleep was for a week. Whoa, sleep, you know, that was the kind of hardwiring we grew up. It was like the less sleep, the better. And it's only been the last few years since we've had young kids that we've really read into, we've prioritized it and we've learned so much about it. And two simple factors or I guess points that I can say about sleep that really resonated with me was one, men who get six hours sleep or less over a prolonged period will have the testosterone level of 10 years their senior. And testosterone as a man, vitally important for one, being a man and two, for muscle production. So if you do want to feel more masculine,

sleep is really important. The second one, Dave Pepper, and to get the mic, the second factor in terms of sleep is anyone who gets six hours sleep or less typically will consume two or 300 calories more. And of those calories, typically they're the wrong ones. So if you've had a bad night's sleep, you come into work, work is supplying you with bracket. There's a great spread there. There's like fruit salad, there's chia seed puddings,

there's all this healthy stuff. And then there's the other table full of croissants and pano chocolates and if you're sleep deprived what are you going to pick yeah of course you're going to pick the pano chocolate as anything to help support you so i think sleep will help you stay in shape if that's what you're looking to do more we could talk lots about this because we're really passionate about sleep but just really practical things which you go into in your book is number one your your room should be dark. Number two, your lighting, try to cut down on lighting, reduce screen time before bed and routine.

You know, as a parent, with my eight-year-old and my five-year-old, we start at half six, we have a bath. We talk, I talk quieter.

We read a book. We close the blinds. We really try to slow them down. But as adults, we lie in bed at 11 p.m. We're watching Game of Thrones. We're watching Jon Snow with his sword

cutting some lad's head off. And then we turn the light out and we say, night, night, lovem., we're watching Game of Thrones, we're watching Jon Snow with his sword cutting some lad's head off, and then we turn the light out and we say night-night love and we expect just to unwind just like that. So I think, as you say, a bedtime routine is so fundamentally important and that might start at, and really what's core about it

is to try to go to bed at the same time and get up at the same time, no matter what day it is or no matter what you do and if you're kind of, if you go to bed late and you've been out partying, maybe have a nap in the afternoon or something as simple as that. Last and final

point, point number five. I think health, as we covered earlier, isn't kale, isn't yoga. It's a factor of many things. And ultimately we're all going to die. So find, do more things that bring you back to the present moment, make you feel happy. And ultimately I think most important thing as cheesy and as totally stereotypical as this must say I think ultimately the most important thing about is love so and that starts with yourself if your cup isn't full you can't fill anyone else's so start to do anything that cultivates that sense of self-love and brings you back to the present as cheesy and as um obviously an Instagram quote that might feel but there's a huge wisdom and simplicity in it there is guys I mean you two of the most inspiring people I've come across,

you know, and the energy, the happiness that's there, it's just fantastic. And I really think that the listeners of this podcast are going to get a lot out of our conversation. I certainly hope so. We could have spoken about so many more things. I really wanted to go into this whole thing about what is enough. That's a great topic. That's something that we're so interested we'll come back to that definitely in fact we're trying to see if we can figure out a live event together in your neck of the woods yeah so january in january yeah maybe if we can which i'm excited to see stress yeah well if we can make that happen maybe we can talk about that because i think that's really important because i think everyone is always seeking the next new thing or they're seeing someone else on social media.

So they want to chase that. So I think we'll park that. I'll come back to that. Can I say one final thing? Of course you can. I was just going to say that now we're over in the UK. We've got six products available in Waitrose. So if anyone wants to try our food that's high in fiber, we have two pastas, we have two hummuses and we have two dinners, which are quick, easy and simple.

And they're all in waitrose across the uk that's incredible guys from starting a vegetable shop to now having all your products available you know all over ireland certainly now in the uk you've got them here in waitrose that's absolutely fantastic i've not tried those yet i've tried what you've got on your goodie bags here which is incredible so i'll feed back and say to how they sell but i'm sure they will be incredible for people who aren't familiar with you guys and what you do, obviously you've got a YouTube channel, which is just got so many subscribers and so much content there, but can you tell people where they can connect with you guys and follow you? We're mad into social media. So whatever platform you use, we're most likely on it, the happy pair. And we tend to be prolific.

If you're looking for kind of inspirational recipes, quick and simple, YouTube, Instagram, we do daily stories. We post about positivity and lifestyle and trying to make people's life and if anyone wants to come join us for a swim meet us down at the cove sunrise any day of the week just dm us on instagram just to let us know you're coming oh well guys i think that's a great note to finish it on thank you for you know giving up your time today flying out here to see me in my neck of the woods and uh enjoy your time in London. Thank you, Rangan. What an honour. It's been great. Really, really wonderful. And if you don't know, Rangan's six foot six and he's a big hunk of a man. I didn't know that. When you see Rangan

on social media or book, you just see this doctor and that, but he's a hunk of a man and he's a wonderful musician. That concludes today's episode of the Feel Better Live More podcast. I hope you feel as uplifted and energized as I did when I finished chatting to Steve and Dave. Do let us know on social media what you thought of today's episodes and if you have any further questions for either myself or the happy pair. Since we recorded this podcast, we have actually managed to sort out a live date together, which will be in Dublin in January 2019. All of my live dates for the new year can be seen on my website at drchastity.com forward slash events. If you enjoy my weekly podcasts, one of the best ways to support me

is to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or whichever platform you listen to podcasts on. The reviews help to raise visibility of the podcast, which in turn helps me to attract better and better guests. You can also support the podcast by taking a screenshot right now and sharing it with your friends on social media. Please do remember to tag me and the happy pair. And don't forget to check out the show notes page for today's episode which is drchastity.com forward slash happy pair which contains links to everything that we talked about today as well as links to buy the happy pairs books as mentioned in today's episode stress is often a key driver behind why we make the lifestyle choices

that we do. I see in my practice every single day the impact that stress is having on our health, and that was the main reason why I wrote my next book on this subject. The Stress Solution is for the simple and accessible tools to help you live a happier and calmer life. And it's available to order now in paperback or in an audio book, which I will be narrating. I know that we're picking up new listeners to the podcast every week. For those people who are joining me for the first time, my first book, The Four Pillar Plan, is all about helping people to make simple and accessible lifestyle changes. It has literally inspired thousands of people to make lifestyle change that many had previously thought unachievable.

If you don't have a copy yet, please do consider picking one up. For those of you listening in the US and Canada, it has been released over there with a different title, How to Make Disease Disappear. That's it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure that you have pressed subscribe and I'll be back next week with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the

architects of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time.