Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #65 Developing Confidence and Learning to Say No with Chloe Brotheridge

Episode Date: June 5, 2019

Have you ever wondered what life would be like if you were more confident? This week, I sit down with hypnotherapist, anxiety expert and author, Chloe Brotheridge, to talk about how confidence is a skill that everybody can learn. Chloe explains that by taking small steps to challenge yourself, you can retrain your nervous system and gradually, you will be able to achieve things that you never thought would be possible.  We discuss how shame can be the root of many of our anxieties and why striving for perfection is so problematic. We talk about how we can all cultivate more acceptance by embracing things as they are. Finally, we delve into the importance of learning to say no – in a world where we are all struggling to find time for ourselves, by saying no to the things you don’t want to do, you are freeing up time for the things you do want to do and saying yes to yourself. Chloe finishes with some brilliant tops tips that will help you transform the way that you feel. This is a really empowering conversation – I hope it helps you in your lives. Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/bravenewgirl Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I sometimes ask people to just close their eyes and imagine all the times that they've said yes to things that they didn't really want to do. So all the, I don't know, the coffees they had with people they didn't really want to have them with, all the movies that they watched they didn't want to watch, all the weddings that they went to that they didn't really want to be at. And all the time and the money and the expense of doing these things. And actually to think about, you know know if you'd said no to those things how much more time and energy and money would you have and if you could say no more in the future by saying no what are you actually saying yes to hi my name is rongan chastji gp television presenter and author of the best-selling books the stress solution and the four pillar plan i believe that all of us have the ability

to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier because when we feel better, we live more. Hello and welcome to episode 65 of my Feel Better Live More podcast. My name is Rangan Chatterjee and I am your host. Have you ever wondered what life would be like

if you were more confident? Well, this week, I sit down with hypnotherapist, anxiety expert, and best-selling author, Chloe Brotheridge, to talk about how confidence is a skill that everybody can learn. Chloe explains that by taking small steps to challenge yourself, you can retrain your

nervous system and gradually you will be able to achieve things that you never thought would be possible. We discuss how shame can be at the root of many of our anxieties and why striving for perfection is so problematic. We also discuss how we can all cultivate more acceptance by embracing things just the way they are. Finally, we delve into the importance of learning to say no. In a world where we are all struggling to find time for ourselves, by saying no to the things you don't want to do, you are freeing up time for the things that you do want to do and saying yes to yourself. Chloe finishes with some brilliant top tips that will help you transform

the way that you feel. This is a really empowering conversation. I hope you enjoy listening. Before we get started, I need to give a quick shout out to the sponsors of today's episode, who are essential in order for me to be able to put out weekly episodes like this one. I'm delighted to announce that my favorite meditation app, Calm, are sponsors of today's show. As many of you will know from listening to previous podcasts as well as reading my books, I think that meditation is one of the most impactful things we can do for our health. It can help our mood, our sleep quality, reduce feelings of anxiety, and even enhance productivity and focus. But many of us find meditation super tricky, as did I. Now, Calm is a meditation app that makes

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or if you've tried before but have fallen off the wagon, I would highly encourage you to check out the have fallen off the wagon, I would highly encourage you to check out the Calm app. Right now, listeners of my podcast get 25% off a Calm premium subscription at calm.com forward slash live more. That's calm, C-A-L-M dot com slash live more. 40 million people around the world have already downloaded Calm. You can find out why at calm.com forward slash live more. Athletic Greens continue their long-term support on my podcast. Now, Athletic Greens is one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that I have come across and contains vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, digestive enzymes. Now of course I do prefer that people

get all of their nutrition from foods but I recognise that for some of us this is not always possible. Over the past few weeks I have been super busy, rushing around and probably not eaten as well as I would have ideally liked. I have been taking athletic greens which has made a huge difference to my energy levels and my mood. So if you're looking to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend it. For listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you will be able to access a special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around £70 with your first order. You can check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation. So Chloe, welcome to the Feel Better Live More podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here. Not at all. So, you know, you've got two books out. One was called The Anxiety Solution, which is probably when I first became aware of you, I saw a lot of things that you were doing on Instagram, a lot of things that you were putting out, and I really resonated with them, really enjoyed the content. And I see you have a new book out now called Brave New Girls. So, you know, what's been going on there? You know, you've gone from writing a book about anxiety to one about confidence and they sort of seem to me to be almost on the same spectrum in some ways. Yeah, I would say so. I would say Brave New Girl is the follow one from the anxiety solution.

And I always, nearly always find with my clients that anxiety and confidence are linked together. So if someone has anxiety issues, quite often they have self-esteem issues. They find it hard to say no or speak up about things. So I often find that they're linked. And the idea is that once you've kind of worked on your anxiety to a certain extent, then you're ready to start to go out into the world more and grow your confidence and and do the things that you want to do so it's kind of the follow-on I would say and you know I was on the train down from the northwest this morning I know you're from the northwest as well it's always good to chat to a fellow

northerner um and I was reading through Brave New Girl. And what was interesting for me is that a thought came to my mind, which is, I can't remember who said this quote, but it's this idea that actually authors often write the books that we need to write for ourselves. And why that came to my mind is that you very openly share a lot of personal experiences in Brave New Girl. And I wondered how much of the content in your book is informed by your own personal experience and how much is informed by your working clinic as a therapist? Yeah, so I'd say it's definitely both. Definitely comes from my own experience. And I started to notice when

I was researching the book, how many other people also felt the same as I did. So thoughts of not being good enough, finding it hard to speak in public or having social anxiety, not having the confidence to go after things. So that was definitely my story for a long time. And I found that a lot of people experience the same, even though it can often feel as though when we're really struggling with something that we're the only one that feels like that. And then, you know, it's been a big relief for me personally to sort of realise that other people feel the same way. And I found that often, you know, people come up to me and say, it's like you've read my mind or you've looked inside my brain and written down what was inside my brain. So's a thing that a lot of people people struggle with

yeah absolutely i mean what you say that reminds me a lot of what happens in general practice where um something i learned quite early on is that you don't always necessarily need to give your patient a solution um but just listening and sometimes just saying, hey, you know what, you're the fourth person today who's come in with this sort of problem is like a revelation to them. And they think, well, other people are feeling like this as well. And so I think you've really touched on something really important there. And I guess in some ways, social media is, I'm sure we'll talk about some of the negatives at some point during this conversation, but certainly there are lots of positives, aren't there, in terms of people can actually share these experiences with other people and see, hey, other people feel the same way that I do.

Yeah, I think it's amazing in recent years how people on social media are being very open and vulnerable and sharing the fact that it's not all perfect pictures and holidays in the Maldives and actually really sharing about actually I had a bad day today or I really struggle with anxiety even though you know I have this you know external image of perfection so it's amazing I think how people are being a lot more honest these days. I've heard you talk about some of these famous examples whereby you know we perceive that what we look at, you know, whether it's on social media or on television, or let's say a TED talk, you know, that guy is rocking it, you know, they're in complete control. But you share some examples,

don't you, where that's not always the case? Yeah, absolutely. I think often, we look at people and think that they're really confident, and they've got it all figured out. And they were potentially just born confident. That's just the way they are. And we tell ourselves that we are not confident and we're not good enough and we could never do those things. And some examples are people like Adele, who has talked about how she sometimes is sick before she does a performance. And there's an inspirational speaker called Mel Robbins who, during her TED talk, she was having a panic attack. She said the whole time, even though she seems really calm and confident when she's actually speaking. I think Tim Ferriss as well during his TED talk, we were talking about Tim Ferriss a minute ago.

He was incredibly, incredibly nervous before his TED talk talk but obviously seems very confident during the actual experience and actually what we're what we're seeing often is someone being courageous you know inside they're doubting themselves they're experiencing fear they're maybe feeling like an imposter um so we're seeing that their courage not necessarily their confidence and I think just knowing that almost gives us a bit of permission to know that we can feel afraid and still do things and we can um still give things a try even though we don't have you know rock solid confidence to begin with yeah I think you know just hearing that Adele one of the probably one of the most successful and most famous singers in the world certainly at the moment I'd say um I think it is quite incredible for us to you know for you to share that story

that actually she gets nervous before she goes out um doesn't matter how many gigs she's done she's still getting nervous that really is I think in some ways quite inspiring for people and quite reassuring for people um so so your you, a lot of your book is about practical solutions for people, practical tools to help people. And that sort of makes sense because you are a therapist, you see clients in your clinic all the time. But are, you know, what sorts of things come in to see you in your clinic? Are there some common themes that you're seeing these days? Yeah, so I see a lot of people with general anxiety, so worrying about everything, feeling like I can't switch off, feeling that they're on high alert a lot of the time. I see

quite a lot of people for social anxiety, so people that really hold themselves back in social situations or avoid social situations completely because they're so afraid of usually what other people think and being judged. I see people with panic attacks, public speaking is another big one that I see people for and again that's just another manifestation of anxiety and fearing judgment really. Yeah I mean a lot of those things there are common roots aren't there you, you do talk about this in the book about our childhoods and various experiences that we may have gone through and how they shape our view of the world and our view of people around us. And that's certainly something I'm becoming more and more

aware of in the last few years, both personally, but also professionally as a doctor and once you start looking for it you see you know these kind of patterns manifest in so many different health issues that come in you know through our doors basically and so I think emotional health is something that I don't think gets enough attention you know we talk a lot about our physical health and we talk about you know diet and exercise of course those things are important not lot about our physical health and we talk about, you know, diet and exercise. Of course, those things are important, not only for our physical health, also for our mental health. But, you know, trying to understand your own patterns and where they come from is something I really want to explore with you in this conversation. But just to sort of go out to the 30,000 foot view, one of the key messages I'm getting from Brave New Girl is that confidence is a skill that you can learn.

And I think that is revolutionary for some people. Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think it's quite empowering to think that, to know that even if you are someone who is shy, I mean, 50% of people say that they are shy. So that's a lot of people um you know struggling with um maybe being themselves or holding themselves back um and to know that actually we're not fixed we are changing all the time we can do things to help ourselves even if you are you know experiencing anxiety at the moment you're not going to feel like that forever. No feelings stay the same the whole time. And so there are lots of things that we can do to learn to accept ourselves more, to perhaps go outside of our comfort zones to grow our confidence, because I found that, and this was definitely a pattern for me in the past, I would just avoid anything that I was afraid of or avoid anything

that made me nervous or anxious. I had a lot of social anxiety in the past and I would just not go to parties. I wouldn't go to a networking event. That was like my worst nightmare, the thought of having to meet strangers or something. And little by little, I started to challenge myself and started to say, right, I'm going to go to this event. I'm going to stay for five minutes, and I talk to one person, and then I can leave. And in doing that, what happens is I started to retrain my nervous system and teach myself that I could survive those situations. And that's how we grow our confidence. That's one way we can grow our confidence anyway, by slowly challenging ourselves. So in some ways, it's almost like a muscle that you're working out and you're just progressively lifting a heavier weight maybe as you're going through.

And I don't know, is that a reasonable analogy? Yes. Yeah, yeah. That's a great way of describing it. Yeah, I think, yeah, you, well, your nervous system learns that you're not going to die if you go into that situation. Because I think at some level, you know, when we're in fight or flight is because we're perceiving or our nervous system is perceiving that there's a threat. And so without all that adrenaline is being created. And then when we go to the networking event, and we survive, and actually we learn, it's not it's not so bad. And your body starts to be retrained in that way. Yeah, I mean, things are rarely as bad as we think they're going to be, are they? They just aren't. And that's quite a nice way of looking at it. Chloe, you mentioned a few stories about yourself in the book. And I've heard you talk about this once before,

about singing. And I can't remember the exact chapter it was in in the book, but it really made me smile at first that you know when you were 15 you'd be playing your guitar and singing and I think a lot of the bands you mentioned like Fida and I can't remember who else Nirvana Nirvana I was like that sounds like me at 15 actually so yeah I really I really resonated with that but you had a incident that happened when you were 15 that has sort of stayed with you and you've only recently managed to overcome. Would you mind sharing that? Yeah, of course. So as a teenager, I used to love playing guitar, love singing. I'd sing in front of anyone. I was constantly singing around the house. And I had my first boyfriend at 15 and he was quite a good guitar player. And I think something

had probably happened, like I'd said, I've been hogging the guitar or something. And he said to me, you think you're so good at singing and playing guitar, but you're not. And I was just really hurt by this. And it stayed with me. It really stayed with me. And I found myself for years after, like 15 years. It wasn't until like a couple of years ago that I overcame this. I couldn't sing in front of anyone, not even the boyfriend that I had been with for sort of eight years and up until that point.

And so I was completely blocked. I had a load of fear about it. I would be hugely embarrassed to, if anyone ever would ask me to sing. And I had an opportunity recently. I was on holiday in America and I was in a Mexican restaurant and just with one friend and we just paid our bill. We were about to leave. And suddenly someone comes out with a microphone, announces that it's karaoke night at this restaurant. And at that moment, my heart starts to race. And for some reason, I had this feeling, right, this is my chance to overcome this fear.

And so I wrote down the name of the song that I was doing. It was actually an Adele song. And my hand was shaking as I handed in this bit of paper to the waiter to say that I wanted to sing this song. So I ended up singing this Adele song in front of a restaurant full of strangers. And I felt so amazing afterwards. I felt like I'd, you know, overcome a big block and, you know, met my fear and walked towards my fear and started to overcome it. So that was a big, a big, a big kind of moment for me just to overcome something that had held me back for a long time. Yeah, I mean, fascinating to hear that story. And I'm just wondering, you know, when was there a point at which you started to go, wait a minute, I'm going

to start leaning into these fears and actually overcoming them. So I guess what I mean is, you know, two years ago, you're in this restaurant in America. Had that happened five years ago, for example, do you think you would have been ready at that point to embrace it? Or would you have said to your friend, let's just pay the bill and get out of here? I don't know, what happens? Is there some magic moment when it starts to go, oh yeah, I'm going to lean into this now? Yeah, I think for me, it's been a mindset shift. And I've been challenging people to challenge themselves, to do the Brave New You challenge, to when your heart is racing. I think there's a moment sometimes when your heart starts to race.

It might be that moment in a meeting when you have an opportunity to ask a question or that moment when you'd like to introduce yourself to someone and, you know, you feel nervous to do so. And we're often taught that, you know, when our heart is racing, we should avoid that situation. I don't know if we're taught that, but it's, you know, the fight or flight response is causing us to want to run away. And actually, I started to reframe that and think, what if the heart racing was actually an invitation to start to walk towards something and a challenge and a chance to overcome a fear. And looking back, I've realised that I did it very step by step. I overcame various fears of mine step by step. For example, public speaking, I didn't go and do a talk in front of 200 people. First of all, I did a talk in front of 10 people. And then I built from there.

So I think it's important for people to do this in a step by step way. You don't need to jump out of an aeroplane if you've got a fear of flights um a fear of flying or fear of heights um do it do it step by step yeah i think that's a that's a that's a great tip and i think as i said to you just before we went on air and i was looking through the book this morning reading through i was up to chapter 25 and retrain your brain and i was struck by um this diagram you've got there with comfort zone in the middle then stretch zone and then panic zone so is this kind of what you're talking about is that you know well maybe you can explain what those circles represent and I suspect that's sort of what you

were just talking about in terms of start at a level that you know feels right for you. Yeah of course so so the diagram is kind of circles within circles and in the middle is the comfort zone. So that's the things that we feel totally comfortable with, totally at ease with, the things that we can already do. Then there's the stretch zone. So that's all the things that would feel like a bit of a stretch for you, but not something that's going to, you know, push you into a complete panic or be, you know, completely terrifying. So what would be a little bit of a stretch? So it might be, someone said to me recently, they went to the cinema on their own, and that was a bit of a stretch for them. They wanted to challenge themselves to do that.

Or that they asked someone on social media if they wanted to meet up in real life. And that was just something that was a bit of a stretch for them, but not going to trigger, you know, massive anxiety. And then the third circle is the things that would really cause you to panic. And those are the things that you might want to wait before challenging yourself to do. So focus on the things that are in your stretch zone and do those first. I think a lot of these things are going to be quite personal, aren't they? Very different from one person to another. So you mentioned that story about going to the cinema by yourself. Someone contacted you and said that they're doing that. And that was in their stretch zone. And I guess I'm thinking back to when I was a medical student. And I remember I was in

University of Edinburgh and, you know, I was in one of the peripheral placements for, you know, I can't remember what attachment it was, but you go away for four weeks to a peripheral hospital. I was in a Scottish village. you know none of my mates were there and there was a cinema nearby and I remember often in the evenings I sometimes I would just go there by myself and watch a film so I didn't think anything off it but I've had a couple of experiences with people where they've said actually what you went to a cinema by yourself. And it's funny. So to me, that doesn't seem like anything odd or, you know, anxiety making in my body. But clearly to some people, that is a petrified,

that is a terrifying experience. Yeah, it's going to be different for everyone. You know, for me, the thing that's in my stretch zone would be something like live TV or something now. But I'm happy speaking in front of groups of people where five years ago that that would have been terrifying for me. So we all are at different stages. And you know, it's a very personal thing. And there's no shame in whatever stage you're at. If something is a stretch for you, it's a stretch for you. And,

you know, you're brave for even giving those things a try if that is something that does trigger some fear. So people shouldn't beat themselves up about what level they're at or, yeah, just be proud if you are challenging yourself of what you're doing. Yeah, absolutely. You just mentioned there's no shame in that. And it made me think about the chapters you've written about shame. about the chapters you've written about shame. And it's something I've been exploring a lot in my own life, with patients in my own writings at the moment is this whole idea of shame and what a toxic emotion that can be and how many of us feel shame at so many things that we maybe not even consciously aware of anymore. But you've made quite a good case in the book, actually, for why shame is so toxic. And I wonder if you could sort of expand a little bit on that.

Yeah, so shame is the feeling of not being good or not being good enough, of feeling unworthy, unlovable. It's a really horrible, horrible feeling. And, you know, it is, I believe, at the root of a lot of our anxieties of, you know, people with depression will often talk about this. And if we look back in our lives, we can often trace back where that shame comes from. And it can come from things like being told off or being shouted out in front of a group of people or being made responsible for something that wasn't your fault. And it's not necessarily the thing that happens, but it's how we interpret it. And often as children, we don't understand the world. We don't understand that adults have their own stress and their own issues. We don't understand the context

of situations. So we can often really take on board things that happen to us. So if you, for example, are always getting told off by your dad, who is a stressed person and is just taking out his stress on you, you might as a young child, take that to mean that you're not good, that you're a bad child and you're not loved. And that, you know, can develop into child, take that to mean that you're not good, that you're a bad child, and you're not loved. And that, you know, can develop into shame if you carry that with you as an adult, and you start to believe that you're not good, or that, you know, people don't like you. And it's a really, you know, heavy feeling that can hold us back in a lot of ways. Yeah, it is. And I think, I think what you're doing by writing about it and us talking about it on

this podcast is um raising awareness of how prevalent but also how toxic shame is because you know it's funny you know until a few years ago I don't think maybe until about five years ago I didn't think I'd done much deep emotional work on myself. So I assume that the way that I was, was the way that I was. That's, you know, that's my personality. But I've actually realised over the last few years that actually it's not. These are a lot of my, what you would call personality traits, are things that I have actually developed as a result of what has happened, particularly as a kid um and once you start going down this it's a bit of a rabbit hole you you you know you're nodding in agreement it's you know and you think i've got the root cause for now then there's just there's just another

layer beyond that and it's there's so much but but i find it empowering because once you understand where this comes from i feel that you can start to make a choice and go, ah, okay, I get it now. Maybe I don't need to react like that in every situation. It's so interesting once you start to look at these things. I mean, often things, I don't want to blame parents because I don't think it's about blaming anyone. But often things are rooted back to things we learned from our parents or things we took on board, things we rebelled against because there were things that our parents did. And this can shape a lot of our personalities and a lot of what we believe and patterns and habits. And, you know,

so for people, I don't know, if you had an anxious parent, for example, you can really take on board some of those habits or if you have a critical parent this is something I hear all the time people who had critical parents who may very well be very loving but have very high standards and I remember a client told me recently her dad always would wonder why if she was getting all A's why were they not A stars it was never quite kind of good enough and she'd really taken on board that pattern and was as a result, very critical of herself. And that became her kind of internal dialogue. So often, if we look back on our lives, we can trace things back to parents or things that happened at school. And when we're aware of it,

we can get a bit of, I think, distance from it, because we can realise actually, that's not me, that's something that I learned. That's something that I took on board. And we can get a bit of um I think distance from it because we can realize actually that's not me that's something that I learned that's something that I took on board and we can choose to change it and we can start to process it and and view it in a different way as well. Do you find much resistance from people coming to see you when you let's say might bring something like this up or a early childhood experience um because sometimes this can be so deeply rooted and so close in your core and become a real part of who you are until you're ready to go down that route it can be challenging sometimes yeah i think there's there's two types of people either people that that have looked at this and are quite aware or people that have just never it's never occurred to them and actually for me personally before I had therapy several years ago I it was again like you hadn't really occurred to me that things that happened in my childhood would make a difference

and I had a really lovely childhood and very supportive parents and you know on the surface it's easy to say oh there's nothing that I could have taken on board and I think a lot of people that I speak to might be in that position where they had good childhoods and they love their parents and don't want to blame them. And it's definitely not about blaming, but it's recognising that that has come from somewhere.

And, you know, all parents are doing their best and it's not about blaming anyone. And no parent is perfect. Just want to add that. Yeah, I think, Chloe, that is such an important point because, you know, I think one to add that. Yeah, I think, Chloe, that is such an important point because, you know, I think one way around that is to realise nothing in life is black or white. So let's say you develop some experiences from your childhoods. And let's say, you know, your mum or your dad reacted in a certain way over a certain incident and that has shaped the

way you see things. It doesn't make them a bad parent. They were doing the best that they could. And it's like saying, well, maybe 90% of what they did was amazing for you. Maybe there's 10% that ideally we would have done in a slightly different way. That's certainly the way I'm trying to look at it because it can be quite hard to go down this road for some people. It can be challenging, but I think it's the most rewarding road to go down. I really think it is. And I see in my role as a doctor, it's amazing how much I'm now seeing people's emotional programming, you know, manifesting in their behaviors.

You know, I spoke to Gabor Mati on this podcast a few months ago. Phenomenal conversation with him about how our childhood experiences in many ways determine, you know, our addictions when we're older. You know, if we don't, he talks about, you know, two things can happen in childhood. Either bad things happen to you or not enough good things happen to you. And he says when that happens, you will seek to fill that hole with something. And that could be an addiction, let's say to heroin, could be an addiction to shopping or sugar or sex or gambling or whatever it is. And I think we're really starting to realize, certainly I am, that our childhoods are pretty instrumental in determining so many of our life outcomes. But at the same time, then,

it's quite a lot of pressure because I'm a parent. So I hear these things and I think back to things I've said to my kids and think, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said it that way. I'm sure many parents listening to this are probably thinking the same thing. So have you got any advice for parents? Yeah, I mean, I think we need to not be perfectionist about it, because a lot of us in modern life can beat ourselves up about not doing things perfectly or feeling like we're failing. I think the best thing that a parent can do is look after themselves, you know, because often people are, well, parents are very busy, very stressed, maybe not putting themselves first all the time.

And I know that might not always be possible, but trying to take a bit more time for themselves and more self-care so that as a parent, you can be in the best position that you can be in to be there for other people. And it's this idea of knowing that it's not selfish to look after yourself. It's not selfish to make sure you're getting enough sleep and eating well it's really enabling you to be there for other people because you're filling yourself up first yeah i guess in many ways the highest expression of love is self-love because without that it's very hard to be caring it's very hard to be caring. It's very hard to be calm with other people, be relaxed, actually give them what you would like to give to yourself. And I think, you know, it is, it's almost a cliche with how many people are talking about self, but it's not. I think it's,

I think it is the highest form of love is loving yourself. And again, it's not something I feel I would have been able to say. I probably wouldn't have been able to think it five years ago, let alone say it publicly on a podcast, you know, but I do think it's that important. And I think once people start to prioritise themselves, first and foremost, they become better mothers, better fathers, better work colleagues, better partners, you know, better friends, better anything. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it does get talked about a lot, but I honestly think we can't hear this message enough. We need constantly reminding. It's like we need to be constantly reminded to be kind to ourselves. Even though we hear a lot about this in media and books, a lot of us will

find ourselves still going down that road of excessive self-criticism or beating ourselves up or, you know, not speaking to ourselves as we would a friend. And just to be reminded that message brings us back to how important it is to do that, I think. Have you changed, would you say in the last few years as you've gone down the streets, as you've gone down, you know, writing these great books. Have you changed your own self-talk with yourself, would you say? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think, I mean, a big thing for me actually is getting distance from the negative voice. And that has come through, I think meditation has been one of the biggest things that's helped me. I still might have a kind of inner critic in the background,

but it's much more faint and much further away. And I think what meditation does is helps to help you to be in the present moment and helps you to get a bit of perspective on things and think more clearly. So I think that's been a big thing for me. really. So I think that's been a big thing for me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned before about perfectionism. Why is striving to be perfect so problematic for us? Well, if we're striving for perfection, we're striving for something that is actually impossible because perfection is something that is just an opinion. And everyone in the world has a different opinion of what is perfect. If you were trying to create the perfect podcast,

everyone in the world has a different idea of that and you're not going to please everyone. And also what happens when we have that perfectionist mindset is we constantly move the goalposts. So once we've got one job, we're looking at the next one. How can we get the next promotion? Once we've, I don't know, sold a certain amount of books, we still want to go to the next thing.

So we're never satisfied because we've got that mindset of always pushing, always pressuring, never feeling good enough. It actually comes down to not feeling good enough. And if we don't feel good enough on ourselves, no external thing is going to really satisfy that and I think it can be very toxic we often think of perfectionism as being kind of a good thing and obviously in some situations you'd want people to be perfectionists like your surgeon

or something but in a lot of cases it's not needed and actually just causes us to worry and stress and actually sometimes not take action because we're worried that we're going to fail. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I just, I went off on a tangent there in my thoughts, because you mentioned a surgeon there. And I thought, if you're a surgeon, let's say you're a neurosurgeon, and we're saying, you know, and I totally respect what you said there, which is, you know, we may need to strive for perfection in some instances. But I don't know, I just want to present an alternative view there. Let's say you are a neurosurgeon and you struggle with anxiety or you are overly harsh on yourself. Yes, of course, there is a goal to reach, there's a certain standard you want to reach. But let's say you do an operation

and you do it to the best of your ability, yet something goes wrong. I guess you would still give them the same advice, wouldn't you, as you give someone else actually. You did all that you could, right? You trained as much as you could do, you performed it to the best of your ability, you can't really control some of those negative outcomes that might happen. you can't really control some of those negative outcomes that might happen. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's this idea of progress over perfection. So if you do make a mistake, you can learn from it and don't beat yourself up about it. And don't let that hold you back from trying again. Yeah, absolutely. If someone is a perfectionist, and they're listening to this, and, you know, I know for years I was, I still am to a certain degree, although I've really worked hard on letting go and just letting things happen.

I posted about this on my Instagram recently about, you know, even this podcast when I started it, you know, little things like I've never liked the logo for the podcast. And I, you know, but I had some episodes ready. I wanted to put it out. And I thought, you know what? It doesn't matter. Just put it out. And you know, here we are 15, 16 months later, 5 million downloads later, and I've still got the same logo that I don't like. And it's almost as if I could have stopped and I could have frozen and I could have said, no, I must wait until I get a designer in to do this and do that. And it must all be perfect. and we do wait for perfection too much don't we and when all we're looking for is progress yeah so just just focus on it being good enough be kind to yourself

know that you're gonna fail at times and progress is gonna happen and I think at some point we do just need to try to let go and actually often things feel perfect when we accept them if we can have that attitude of just being more accepting and embracing things as they are, things start to feel as we imagine they would when they're perfect. We get that sense of contentment and that sense of satisfaction. So I think it's about, yeah, trying to cultivate some more acceptance. How can people who are listening to this and who who recognize some of the tendencies we're talking about so you know I'd love to change that you know I would love to be more accepting of myself but I find it hard what can they do yeah so so many of us find it really hard to accept compliments

or even think about ourselves in a positive way and I think a really key first step is to start to train yourself to think of yourself in more positive ways. We are often in a pattern of always beating ourselves up or, I mean, in terms of negativity bias, which is just the way our brains are wired, we naturally look for the negatives and things or the criticisms because it was a survival mechanism in the past. But we can counteract that by thinking about what were three things that you appreciated about yourself today? What did you do well today? What do you like about yourself today? Did you overcome a challenge? Did you help someone? Did you complete a project? And getting

into that habit of every day thinking of three things that you can appreciate about yourself starts to train your mind to look for more things to appreciate about yourself. And you eventually start to think of yourself in a more positive way. And this can grow your self-esteem, your confidence. You can be kinder to yourself as a result. Would you recommend people just do this in their head or actually start writing this down? I think there is something about writing it down that seems more solid and it seems more concrete. So writing it down if you can. But even if you, I mean, sometimes I do this in bed, I get into bed at night and I just think about the day and I was like, what were three things that I appreciate about myself today? Just doing it in that moment before going to sleep yeah it's it's an act of self-love isn't it it's it's

again even if you've had the crappiest day and everything went wrong or you perceive everything's have gone wrong and be stressed and you're running late there probably are two or three things that you're quite proud of about how you handled yourself or what you did or and it is what strikes me is that these are quite simple things that people can do. They're not that tricky, right? Yeah, it doesn't have to be taking up hours of your day or anything complicated. I think there's so much we can do that is simple things that you can slot into your life that might take a couple of minutes. Yeah, it's a lot to think about. I guess, you know, I'm quite reflective in this podcast, because a lot of the things that I'm reading in your book are things that I'm probably going through

myself at the moment and have been, and I don't know you're ever quite finished, are you? This is an ongoing journey. How much of a role do you think that social media is playing in, you know, driving anxiety, but also driving a lack of confidence. And I guess what I'm getting at particularly is this whole idea of, you know, there is this thing called perfectionist presentation that I wrote about in my first book that we see on social media where we are presenting to a certain degree, the best moments of our life. And so we are comparing, you know, we're having a crappy day and at lunchtime it's raining outside and it's cold and we just flip onto instagram and we see you know our best mates in bali watching

the sunrise um you know there is a complete disconnect so we're always going to feel that hey my life is pretty crap compared to my mate's life at the moment um so is that playing a role do you think in our lack of confidence these days? I think there's comparison and there's fear of missing out that definitely plays a role. I suppose in the past, we would never have known what everyone else in the world is up to. And now we know 24 hours a day and we don't really switch off from it. So it's ever present. And I think as well, it's very much rewarded to post kind of images of perfection you know people make their money from having professional shots taken and uploading them

and airbrushing them and um and so there's a there's a kind of a pressure for people to continue to do that i think um especially influencers for for whom it's their job and they get paid for doing that. And people are being more vulnerable and sharing the other side. But I think we still do look at these images and presume that the person is happy. We don't or that they're living this amazing life and we're not. And we kind of fill in the gaps. We don't. We need to remind ourselves, I think, that actually the person may be having a rubbish day,

even though they look like they're having a nice day or they may be suffering anxiety or depression as well and also starting to appreciate our own lives more and trying to have cultivate that gratitude for what we do have rather than focusing on what we don't have. It is hard though isn't it because you know so much of what our brains and our minds process is subconscious. So even though we might rationally know that's not real life that I'm looking at, that is an airbrushed image, that is, you know, just one small snapshot of, you know, one minute of that 24 hours in that day. I just feel that it's just, it's still feeding our brain, our subconscious brain information. Actually, no, that's the norm. know I am inferior to that um it's it's a tricky one I think I think it's

a really tricky one to navigate it is it is and for some people that you might just have to unfollow people if it really triggers that those insecurities or those bad feelings there's no reason that you should have to subject yourself to that you might just need a break from social media completely for a week even just to reset yourself or just unfollow the people that you compare yourself to or you don't don't make you feel good yeah i think that's a really great tip chloe and something that i'm recommending a lot even to patients um about unfollow when when you're following someone on facebook or Instagram and their posts are quite angry, they're quite toxic, they make you feel bad about yourself, just unfollow them. I think

some people feel that they can't do that or what they're going to think. It's very simple to unfollow. And I think curating your own feed so that it makes you feel the way you want to feel when you engage, I think it's a really good idea for people. Actually, one of my mates recently, unfortunately, his mum was in the late stages of suffering with cancer and she only had a few weeks left. And I remember I went out for dinner with him and he said to me, he said, I've actually just, I've taken Instagram off my phone at the moment because I'm in such a bad space anytime I go on and I see my mates having good times I'm starting to resent it and I know that that's not you know there's no reason why I should be resenting them so I've

decided to take it off until things settle down and I thought that was very astute very it is quite a nice way to go I'm coming off Instagram I don't want to unfollow them but just at this moment in time I'm not doing so. So I'm just going to remove that from my life. That's such a good idea. Just, just do something for yourself and protect yourself in those times when you might be struggling. Yeah, for sure. So there's a lot to talk about, about being a people pleaser as well. And you're giving a knowing grin, a knowing nod. I have, you know, I mentioned on a couple of podcasts before, I have been a people pleaser my entire life. And I'm starting to find out now where that has all come from. And it's, you know, it can be, you know, it's up and down

process trying to figure it all out and try to weave my way through it. But you also have been a people pleaser, haven't you, Chloe? Yes, absolutely. And I think... Or you still are, perhaps? I would say it's a recovery. It's a recovery. I'm definitely more aware of it now. I'm aware of where it was holding me back. And I think the first step is just to look at, you know, where in your life are you saying yes to things that maybe you want to say no to, really? Are you starting to develop resentments or, you know, getting burned out because actually you're not looking after your own needs?

You're always thinking about what other people want. And for some of us, we get so used to instinctively saying yes to things or always putting other people first that we actually lose touch with what it is that we want and what our needs actually are. And so the first step is kind of just bringing some awareness to that and starting to check in with yourself and saying, you know, what do I want in this moment? Is this a yes for me or is this a no for me? I think that's the first step. Yeah, it's something that I think people find hard

because in some ways it's linked to that feeling of not being enough, isn't it? It's about wanting to be liked. I certainly know for me, that was a big driver, wanting to be liked. So, you know, you're out, people say, where do you want to go for dinner? It's like, yeah, I don't mind. You know, anywhere you guys want, whatever. You turn up somewhere you hate, you can't order anything on the menu that you like, but actually, hey, you know what, you kept everyone else happy. And it's, you know, we think it's quite a selfless behavior. I think society conditions

to think it's quite selfless behavior. But I think I saw an Instagram video that you did recently saying that actually, it's quite manipulative behavior. And I thought that was quite a strong term. But I totally agree with you, actually. Can you explain what you meant by that? Yeah, it is quite, yeah, people might feel a little bit taken aback to hear that it is a manipulation. But it is, when we're people pleasing, we're really trying to get people to like us to the extent where we will bend ourselves and ignore our own needs and maybe lie about our preferences to please other people. And in doing this manipulation, trying to get people to like us, what can often happen is that

we end up resenting the other person, resenting having to do the thing that we've agreed to. We might develop anger that can come out at that person at another stage, or we end up exhausting ourselves. And then we're actually not in a good position to be there for other people because we haven't taken care of ourselves. So even though it gets this image of being kind of selfless and good, I think people pleasing actually is not that helpful in most instances. not that helpful in most instances. For sure. And I guess this is linked to this whole idea of saying no. And how can we get better at saying no, because I think it's something a lot of us, it's kind of on the same spectrum, isn't it? As people pleasing, it's, you know, wanting, not wanting to let people down, saying yes to everything. And again, this is something I've

struggled with a lot. And I've started in the last couple of years, putting down some really strict barriers, which I found hard at first, because I worried what other people would think. But then you start to think, well, you know what, this is making me feel good. This is making me have more time with my wife, with my kids. That's what life is about. So actually, if I put other people first, and I'm actually, for me, the big game changer in my head was when I thought, well, okay, Friday night, I've got 30 emails I've still not replied to. I can either spend the weekend going through them and replying to them and getting back to everyone, or I can play with my kids. And I thought, well, hold on a minute, if I reply to those emails, in some way, I'm saying that that is more important

than my children. And look, it took me a while to get to that point. But I thought when I started reframing it like that, I thought, yes, stop the emails, just shut my laptop, I'll see it on Monday. And people get annoyed. I don't care anymore, because I'm just gonna have a banging weekend with my children. But it took a while to get there. So, you know, I don't care anymore because I'm just going to have a banging weekend with my children. But it took a while to get there. So, you know, I don't know, how can people learn to say no? Have you got some tips for them? Yeah, definitely. So I think the first thing is just, I sometimes ask people to just close their eyes and imagine

all the times that they've said yes to things that they didn't really want to do. So all the, I don't know, the coffees they had with people they didn't really want to have them with, all the movies that they watched they didn't want to watch, all the weddings that they went to that they didn't really want to be at, and all the time and the money and the expense of doing these things. And actually to think about, you know, if you'd said no to those things, how much more time and energy and money would you have? And if you could say no more in the future by saying no, what are you actually saying yes to? So you're saying yes to more time with your kids or more sleep or more fun or, you know, the side project that you're working on that you're really passionate about.

And so really trying to focus on actually what you're saying yes to I think is quite motivating and I think again like you said before it's a bit like exercising a muscle when you first start saying no it might be quite uncomfortable and then you get used to it and you start to reap the benefits and you start to find it easier and other people get used to you saying no as well because I think if you're if other people are used to you saying yes all the time it might be a bit of a adjustment for them as you start to set those boundaries, but they will get used to it. And usually people don't care nearly as much as you think they're going to when you say no. Yeah, absolutely. Have you found this in your own life that as you've started to say no,

which I'm guessing you might have started to a bit more than you used to, you've started to say no, which I'm guessing you might have started to a bit more than you used to. A, did you find it hard? And B, what sorts of things are you now saying no to that maybe a few years ago you would have said yes to? Yeah. So I think in terms of work requests, after my first book was published, I think the number of emails I got increased by about 10 times and people asking to me speak at events or write things or do different things and or go for coffees with people which would be lovely things to do but there's only a certain amount of time in the day and you cannot say yes to everything you have to choose what's most important to you and for me um having you know recovered from anxiety and still managing my mental health, I know that I need to have a lot of space in my diary to rest and take care of myself.

I can't be one of these people that is every minute of their diary booked out and working every weekend. That just is not going to work for me in terms of anxiety. So I know I have to be quite strict and block out time for myself and say no to things and for example I got asked to speak at some festivals this this summer and that would be a lovely thing to do but if you take into account traveling there staying overnight you know to speak to people for half an hour for me I had to weigh that up and decide that it wouldn't be worth it I could spend my time better elsewhere and just have the weekend to rest or something so um so yeah sometimes it's hard to say no to things because there are nice opportunities but at the same time you know I know for me I've got to choose my my mental health first of all

yeah it's also difficult on on other levels in the sense that having more people wanting you to write or speak at their event or meet up for coffee on a superficial level feels quite nice, doesn't it? It's an ego boost for all of us. Of course. And so I think, you know, it's nice to get that, especially if people have been striving to do something for a long period of time and you finally, you know, reach that goal, whatever it is. And then all the attention comes in. It can be pretty overwhelming. goal, whatever it is, and then all the attention comes in, it can be pretty overwhelming. And it's interesting because, you know, I guess we're both in the situation currently that, you know, you've

just had your second book out. My second book came out a few months ago and I have learnt a lot of lessons between book one and book two. Not all good. But certainly I'm saying no to a lot of festivals this year that I didn't say no to last year because Cause I thought, no, you know, it's important. I spent so long writing this book. I know it's going to help so many people. I want to get out there and actually spread the word and meet people. And I do want to do that, but I can't do them all anymore. And I realized that when I do that, there's an impact on my own family life.

And, um, it's also hard because of social media. Cause you know, if you don't go, you are still going to see all those feeds of people who have gone and spoken at those events, let's say. So it can be tricky. I tell you, for me, Chloe, one of the big things I've changed, and I wonder, this is probably the sort of thing you, if I came to see you as one of your clients, you might have recommended to me, I guess, is I have become very strict about my weekends now. I have become very strict about my weekends now. So it is, you know, I get lots of conference requests, lots of speaking requests, most of them are at the weekends. And I now have a quota in my head of how many I will do a year. And once that quota is full, that's it, I'm done. Because those are my time, those are my family times. And it it's really quite empowering and what I've noticed is the last two conference requests I turned down um and I know the two people I turned down to listen to this podcast so I presume they'll they'll share the same experience but I was just open and honest and I said look this is a great event I'd love to come speak but actually

you know what family weekends are my family time and I've already exceeded you know I've met my quota for the year so I can't commit to any more weekend events hope you understand and they sent really nice emails back to say we completely understand and it goes back to what you were saying before that it's not as bad as you think it's going to be absolutely absolutely I often think of this thing of you know if a friend if you were going to go for dinner with someone and they had to cancel last minute because they were feeling really anxious or really low, we wouldn't be angry with them. We wouldn't blame them. We'd say, of course, please like go home and rest. And actually, you know, if we're struggling, if we need to put ourselves first and take care of ourselves, people do quite often understand that. And we make it far worse in our heads than it is

in reality yeah absolutely Chloe you you shared a really nice story in the book where um you I don't know if it's when you were starting off as a therapist or not but you wanted to do some group sessions and um I wonder if you could just tell that story because I think it's it's quite inspiring for people and just a what happened, but be how you process it and what you learned from that experience. Yeah, definitely. So when I first started as a therapist, I decided to do my first event. And I was really excited about it and very, very nervous. And I'd prepared a lot for it. I'd learned the script off by heart, I'd put up posters in local cafes and contacted clients and put quite a lot of

effort into trying to organise it. And when I, you know, did the event, I got a grand total of one person turning up. And also I invited sort of my sister and my boyfriend came along as well to make up the numbers. And I was completely devastated. I spent the kind of next, I don't know, the next hour after the workshop really beating myself up, thinking, I'm a terrible therapist. This is a sign that I should just quit and never try to do an event again. So beating yourself up, basically. Totally beating myself up and catastrophizing and thinking that this meant all these things about me that I was, you know, not good at what I was doing. And after kind of a certain period

of beating myself up, I had a bit of a word with myself. And I decided to do some writing about what I was thinking. And I wrote down some of those thoughts that I was having and started to realise how ridiculous they sounded, written down. And I started to ask myself, right, what can I, what can I learn from this experience? What can I do differently next time that will help it to, you know, be more successful in terms of people turning up? And so I kind of had some ideas about, you know, going to a room that had an existing clientele that they could invite people and all sorts of different things. And I was able to use that information. And the next talk that I did got about 10 people. So it was a definite improvement.

But it's such a common thing how we, you know, we quote unquote fail at something and we make it mean a load of things about us that we're not good enough. And quite often we give up if we beat ourselves up about something. And if we can think, if we can be kind to ourselves and if we can think about, you know, what am I learning from this situation? How can I use this as information to help me to get better next time, then we're much more able to try again and to use that as a valuable learning experience. I think you used journaling, didn't you, as part of your way of processing this? Yes, yes. So just getting pen and paper, writing down what was on my mind, a stream of consciousness. And, you know, once we've got it written down, we see it in a different perspective, I think, there's some of the things that we think and some of the things that we tell

ourselves. And we can start to, you know, hopefully take it a bit less seriously or start to change that into something a bit more positive when it's written down. I've mentioned journaling quite a bit on this podcast. And one of my mates actually phoned me up last week and he said, hey mate, you talk about journaling a lot. You know, what is journaling? What are you actually doing when you journal? Are you thinking about it? Are you just writing anything that comes down into your head? So, you know, as a therapist, if someone comes into you and you recommend journaling, how do you break it down for them in terms of what they should be doing? Yeah, so I often recommend that my clients get a notepad. And it could be at any time of day that works for them. Often people do it in the morning, because it's a nice way to start your

day. Some people do it last thing at night, to help them to unwind before bed. But you just write a stream of consciousness. So whatever you're worried about, whatever's on your mind, whatever you've got on that day. And what happens is it helps us to put our feelings into words. And there's something very powerful about doing that because when we're able to kind of label our emotions and, you know really kind of narrate narrate the um thoughts and feelings we start to feel more in control of them we start to um process them more easily and um it's not just a jumble in our heads anymore and all these anxious kind of thoughts and worries it's it's out and it's down on paper and we can start to process it. So just writing a stream of consciousness, I think, is a great step. Yeah, I think it's a great step.

And I think it is deceptively powerful. Journaling really does move the needle, I think, in the way you feel about yourself, the way you feel about people around you, your life. I'm a huge fan of journaling. I think people should definitely give this a go. Chloe, I want to thank you for making time to come and speak to me today on the podcast. I think Brave New Girl is a brilliant read. I think you're going to help a lot of people develop more self-confidence,

um, learn how to, uh, eliminate some of those perfectionist tendencies, you know, learn how to say no, as well as some, some really good tips on how to deal with shame. So, uh, thanks for taking the time to write such a important book. To finish off, I always like to ask my guests for some tips. And this podcast is called Feel Better Live More. I genuinely believe that when we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of lives. So I'd love you to share some of your most actionable tips that people listening to this can think about putting into practice into their own lives immediately. Okay, so one that I really like is to start to tell yourself that you're excited if you're feeling anxious. And excitement and anxiety are very similar emotions in terms of the symptoms.

So it might be butterflies or a racing heart. And they've done studies into this and found that people, if they're going to perform or do something that they're a bit afraid to do, they tell themselves, I'm excited. They start to believe that it's a more of a positive experience that they're going into. And it means that people feel more confident and more resourceful going into situations. So tell yourself you're excited. So reframe your stress, basically, instead of it being a negative stress, it's a positive stress. Exactly. Okay, that's a great tip. Another thing that I like to suggest people to do is to start to label their emotions. And

there's something that you can find on Google, if you Google the feelings wheel, it will list every emotion that we can have as a human being. And it can be really helpful to look on there instead of just thinking, oh, I'm feeling stressed today. Actually, find a more accurate word to describe how you're feeling. So it might be that you're feeling lonely, or you might be feeling disappointed. And there really is something about being able to accurately label the emotions that helps to calm us down and often we're not very good at really knowing how we're feeling and if we're able to do this we become more resilient and we're more able to to know how to take action on what

we're feeling so if we're feeling lonely we can reach out to someone if we're feeling disappointed we can you know take some action to help ourselves with that brilliant any more tips um i'm a big fan of meditation i'm sure you talk about this a lot but um i practice tm transcendental meditation um 20 minutes and it really just helps me to face the day in a much um with a much calmer mindset do you manage to do it every day not every day not every day i think it I think it's important not to think that we need to do it perfectly. I think I probably do it 80% of the time, some mornings I don't manage to. But for me, it's one of those things that I know it makes such a difference. I really try to make the time for it to do it. And do you notice on those days where you don't do it because you've

thought, I don't have time today? Do you find later that you can tell that you've not done it? Actually, no, I find with meditation, it's the consistency. And I notice the difference. If I don't do it for three weeks, I notice the difference. If I skip the odd day, it doesn't matter. But as long as I'm doing it about 80% of the time, that seems to kind of create the change that makes a difference. I think that's a great tip, Chloe, because I think many people feel if they can't do it every day, there's no point in doing it. And I think that's really nice that it's just, I guess it's like, you know, many people who run might run two or three times a week. They're not running every day necessarily, but they're still getting those benefits. So

that's quite a nice, I think that's a really good tip, actually. Yeah. Well, great. Thanks for sharing this, Chloe. For people who may have questions and want to get a hold of you, are you active on social media? And if so, which channels are you on? Yes, I'm mostly on Instagram, and you can find me at Chloe Brotheridge. Fantastic. I'm going to link to everything that Chloe and I spoke about today in the show notes page for this episode, which is going to be drchastity.com forward slash brave new girl, which is the title of Chloe's book. Chloe, thank you for taking the time today and hope to see you again soon. Thank you so much.

That concludes this week's episode of the Feel Better Live More podcast. I really hope you enjoyed the conversation and found Chloe's take home tips at the end there useful. As always, do try and have a think about something you can take from this episode to apply in your own life immediately. This is why I do these podcasts, to try and give you some weekly inspiration on how you might be able to improve the way that you feel so that you can get more out of life. One of Chloe's tips at the end was about meditation at practice that she shared has really helped her. A quick reminder that the meditation app Calm are sponsoring today's podcast and I've got a great offer for my listeners right now. You will get 25% off a

Calm premium subscription at calm.com forward slash live more. So if you've been sitting on the fence about meditation, it could be a great way to get you started. If you want to see everything that Chloe and I talked about today, do go to the show notes page for this episode, drchatterjee.com forward slash brave new girl. brave new girl. The show notes will link to articles about Chloe and her work, but also the feelings wheel that she referred to, which helps you identify the specific emotion you have. So do check it out. Of course, do let Chloe and I know what you thought of today's conversation. Chloe is very active on Instagram at Chloe Brotheridge and on Twitter at C Brotheridge. And of course, I'm active on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Genuinely, my guests and I absolutely love hearing the feedback to

our conversations. So please do let us know. And wherever possible, please do use the hashtag FBLM so that I can easily find your comments. A lot of the themes that we spoke about today and in previous episodes of the podcast are covered in detail in both of my books, The Four Pillar Plan and The Stress Solution. Both books are accessible guides on how you can improve your health, full of really practical tips to help you feel better so that you can get more out of life. Both books have over 800 reviews now on Amazon with the average rating being five stars. You can pick up both books in all the usual places

as paperbacks, eBooks, as well as audio books, which I am narrating. If you enjoy my weekly shows, please do support them by leaving a review on whichever platform you listen to podcasts on. And you can also help me spread the word by taking a screenshot right now and sharing with your friends and family on your social media channels. Or you can do it the good old fashioned way and simply tell your friends and family about the show. I really do appreciate your support. A big thank you to

Richard Hughes for editing the podcast. That is it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure that you have pressed subscribe. I'll be back in one week's time with my latest episode. Remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time.