Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #66 Pushing Your Limits and Discovering Yourself with Kilian Jornet

Episode Date: June 12, 2019

When was the last time you were completely alone?  Not alone by modern standards, but truly alone - with no mobile phone or outside influences providing information to your brain. Can you think of a time? Global icon, prolific mountain runner and guest on this week’s episode, Kilian Jornet believes that it is only when you take away the storm of information, that you can discover what your true priorities are. And for him, the mountains are the tool to do just that. Not only do they allow him to explore the beauty of nature, they allow him to discover himself. He explains that by pushing his body to its limits, all the masks that he wears in everyday life are removed and he is able to find out who he really is.   Kilian and I discuss the benefits of solitude, failure and visualisation. We delve into Kilian’s amazing feat of climbing Everest twice in one week and talk about how immersing oneself in a challenging situation can be a form of mediation. Finally, Kilian shares some brilliant tips to help us all connect with ourselves and live our best lives.  I found Kilian’s single-minded drive to live the life he wants to live truly inspiring – I hope this conversation inspires you too.    Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/66 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think running is not what I like to do, but it's a tool for me to go to the mountains. It's a tool because it's the way to transport myself to places that I want to visit. And it's about exploring the outdoors. It's exploring. And by exploring the beauty of the nature nature it's exploring myself and exploring like what who are who am i and the limits and running long distance like when you run a hundred mile race it's all about that it's it's normally you are traveling in in places that they are beautiful but it's also about like traveling inside traveling to to when you put your body into this um situation like it you are exhausted and like

you are sleepy and your legs are hurting on a way it's not that we are macho kids but it's more like you want to know who you are and there you find it like you put yourself to the limits and finally you you take away all the masks that we wear every day. Hi, my name is Rangan Chastji, GP, television presenter and author of the bestselling books, The Stress Solution and The Four Pillar Plan. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do. But getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside

the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier, because when we feel better, we live more. Hello and welcome to episode 66 of my Feel Better Live More podcast. My name is Rangan Chatterjee and I am your host. When was the last time you were completely alone? Not alone by modern standards, but truly alone, with no mobile phone or outside influences providing information to your brain. Can you think of a time? Well, this week's guest is none other than the most prolific and dominant mountain runner of all time, the global icon, Kylian Jornet. Kylian believes that it's only when you take away the storm of information that you can discover what your true priorities are.

And for him, the mountains are the tool to do just that. Not only do they allow him to explore the beauty of nature, they allow him to discover himself. He explains that by pushing his body to its limits, all the masks that he wears in everyday life are removed, and he's able to find out who he really is. Killian and I discuss the benefits of solitude, failure, and visualization. You see, Killian has always strived to find challenges outside formal competition, and has come up with

his own adventure project dubbed Summits of My Life, establishing the fastest known recorded times to ascend and descend the world's most challenging peaks, including the Matterhorn, Kilimanjaro, Mont Blanc and Mount Everest. And not only did Killian set an amazing time of 26 hours to summit and descend Everest from base camp, he did so without supplemental oxygen or ropes. And amazingly, he repeated the feat a mere six days later. In our chat, I try to find out what exactly makes this incredible human being tick. Killian shares how for him,

immersing himself in a challenging situation can be a form of meditation. And finally, Killian gives some brilliant tips to help us all connect with ourselves and live our best lives. Killian and I recorded this conversation just outside London. We were both invited guests to speak at a special Google event where Killian gave a masterclass on running and I gave a masterclass on stress. A few hours before we sat down to chat, I was lucky enough to actually go for a run with Killian and some other guests. And if I'm honest, I struggle to keep up with what can only be described as a warm-up pace for Killian.

Killian is someone who very rarely gives long-form interviews. So it was a real honour to have an hour to sit down and go deep in conversation with him. He's kind, he's humble, and he's special. I found this conversation inspiring. I hope you do too. Before we get started, I do need to give a very quick shout out to the sponsors of today's episode, who are essential in order for me to be able to put out weekly podcast episodes like this one. Athletic Greens continue their long-term support of my podcast. Athletic Greens is a whole food supplement. It's one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that

I've come across and contains vitamins, minerals, prebiotics and digestive enzymes. Now of course, I do prefer that people get all of their nutrition from foods but I recognize that for some of us this is not always possible. Over the past few weeks I have been really busy up against a lot of deadlines and rushing around and I've got to say taking Athletic Greens has made a huge difference to my energy levels and my mood. If you are looking to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend it. For listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you will be able to access a special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20

servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around £70 with your first order. You can check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation. So, Cillian, welcome to the Feel Better Live More podcast. Thank you. Thank you very much. So, Cillian, look, I am someone who's spent a lot of time in chamonix um i did a ski season there in 2005 i played music there and i've been going back for years and you are as you know a bit of a bit of a legend in chamonix um you're regarded as one of the world's uh best endurance runners and um i'm interested you know what's your story how did you get into running how is

it that you've gone from you know your childhood to actually getting to this point where you are you know a global icon really well i i would say i had not the choice when i was a kid um no seriously like my my parents both they love mountains. They practice like mountaineering sports. And I was born in a mountain hut in the Pyrenees at 2,000 meters altitude. And I think it was mostly that my parents, they teach me how to understand nature, how to understand the world we live on. understand nature how to understand the the world we live on and by that it was like going outdoors and like exploring and playing and and and like jumping from rocks and and climbing mountains but it was kind of a game and and by that i i became a lover of of mountains and and then it was just

like a natural evolution like to to want to explore more and and i i was a very active kid so i wanted to i practiced a lot of sports i needed to get exhausted to to be happy so then it became natural to go to to running to competition in the mountains so you run for people who don't know uh what you do you run some quite extreme extreme ultra races where you really put your body under a lot of strain and a lot of stress. You know, why is it you do this form of running? You know, you don't, for example, you don't seem to do like, you know, I live in the UK that running is a huge sport. It's getting more and more popular. A lot of people like to do road races or half marathons or marathons, but I've never come across you doing what we would call a conventional urban race most of yours that

i that i see seems to be out in nature or out in mountains yeah like that's what i love it's actually i i think running is not uh what i like to do but it's a tool for me to go to the mountains like uh it's a tool because it's it's it's the way to transport myself to places that i want to visit and and it's about exploring the the the outdoors is exploring and by exploring like the beauty of the nature it's exploring myself and exploring like what who are who am i and the limits and running long distance like when you run a hundred mile race it's all about that it's it's normally you are traveling in in places that they are beautiful but it's also about like traveling inside traveling to to when you put your body into this situation, like you are exhausted and like you are sleepy

and your legs are hurting, on a way, it's not that we are macho kids, but it's more like you want to know who you are and there you find it. Like you put yourself to the limits and finally you take away all the masks that we wear every day. It's interesting you say that, Kylian.

I've heard that on this podcast. On many occasions, I spoke to Rich Roll about his running. I spoke to many people who run. And often they say that it helps them with their mental health. It helps them process life. It helps them find out who they are. And I guess I wonder sometimes as a doctor who sees, you know, lots of patients coming in to see me each day, I wonder sometimes has life become too sterile for many people? Is it too, you know, monotonous and boring from day to day? Are we, do we need that sense of adventure to really learn who we are, I guess. Yeah, probably. We live like us, like living in the first world. We don't worry about surviving.

In other countries, in many places in the world, it's not the same, but we, like our problems, are not about I will make it, but it is more like about uh i'm stressed i'm i'm i'm mentally healthy i i eat well it's it's it's problems that a big part of the world like cannot afford to worry about and and then like i think it's on a, we get so much, like, inputs every day, like, information.

They are, like, we are, like, getting that all the time, all the time, all the time, so many things. And we cannot process all that. Like, we have not, like, the capacity of, like, processing all the things that we get every day from everywhere, from the news, from the social media, from the work, from everywhere. And I think running or these activities where you need to be alone and you need to be with yourself, you need to hear your breathe, you need to feel your muscles, you need to listen to your body. And then it's like the moment to get away of that and to just listen to, it's a kind of meditation i would say and then by that like you get to say okay what's important it's i always say like when you climb when you are up in the mountains you find the problems of the world so easy to resolve yeah because it it

it feels much more simple when when uh yeah when you take away all this storm of information and that running long distance, it's to be with yourself and to find what are your real priorities. Yeah, it is incredible. I'm thinking about so many of us. We've got so many anxieties and thoughts and worries in our life and we stay with them. We're always thinking about them and we never we never can escape but that distance you must get from I don't mean the running this the distance just being up in the mountains away from real life in the valley or you know wherever you know in the city um I mean if someone said to you you had to you know from

next year you're gonna have to be in an office from nine till five every day. I can tell from your face, what would that do to you? Well, like that's the thing, like this kind of hypothetical questions, like it's why, like why I need to be in an office? Like why, like what's the, like, I think it's most part of the times we are carried to the things and to the things in a way. Like, it's like, it's not that we don't have the opportunity to live outdoors. It's just like, I want to live outdoors and I know I need to do these things. And I know, like, I cannot live in a city. Like, I can spend a few hours, that's okay. I can spend a day, that's possible.

But I need this connection to nature. I need this connection to mountains. And I need solitude. I know that if I want to be happy, I need to spend time alone and just not see anybody. And that's why it would be impossible for me to live in a city. It's amazing. It's uncanny how much you remind me of one of my friends who actually lives in Chamonix.

Obviously, we were running this morning, weren't we? And I was telling you a little bit about him. He's a really good friend of mine. I played music with him for years and he, um, you know, he, he loves to compete. He does ski mountaineering. He lives in Chamonix. He's up in the mountains all the time. And I try and get him to come and visit. And he does come, but he can't come for more than a couple of days. He's like, I need to get back to the mountains. And he also seems to be someone who likes solitude um and and i wonder if that is if there's something about that so do you think you sometimes do you go to the mountains maybe to escape in some ways i think sometimes like or

yeah sometimes it's escaping for sure and other times it. And other times it's a strange feeling because sometimes you go to the mountains because you want to feel part of it. Like we are an animal, like we are a mammal and we are not different that much. Like physiologically, we are not much different than a monkey or a pig or or or a cow and so we we think about us like humans and like city society versus nature and that's not correct

we are part of it and and when we go to mountains i think or when we go to probably the the ones that like like deserts or seas the same But when we go to these open spaces, it's about feeling that we are part of it, the feeling that we are just another animal in the world. And it's funny because you go to find that and you find that through solitude and through being alone in a space that you feel insecure in a way because we are not used.

And you want to rest there, but you want to you feel that you want to go back to safety and safety. You find a home where it's humans. And then when you are with humans, you want to go back to that. So it's kind of this fight between being an animal and being a social um yeah social human and i think it's it's this escaping from from from who we are in these two different two different ways yeah it feels a bit like a yin and yang sort of process we need a bit of both and it's when we've got too much of one we crave the other one and um and. And I wonder how many people living in cities would benefit from, you know, having more access to nature and escaping a little bit

from, you know, the chains of modern life that, you know, I remember seeing your facial expression when I said, you know, what happens if you have to go into an office nine to five each day? It totally changes because it must be compared to what you I mean what is a typical day for you what does that look like well like normally wake up normal like 6 37 go out for a for a run in the morning it can be from two to five six hours up in the mountains then come back home eat a bit of reading resting maybe some work like meals and things like that and then like i go back again for a for another run easy one hour and then uh yeah uh it's kind of i think like if you want to perform as an athlete you need to keep life simple as much

as possible then like of course the best would be like just to eat sleep train but then yeah uh things you need to do come by so you need to to do some like conference or like mails or like uh traveling and things and you need to put that on on this like perfect vision of a simple life but was that a struggle so you you started off as a kid you were running you were raised in mountains you um you know performing very well doing all these things you're getting this sort of a lot of attention when you're winning these races and you're you're pushing the sport's new limits so is it hard then to keep focused on the sport when suddenly you get all this attention and i mean what happens then is is there a clash at that point yeah it's a it's a clash and it's it's a mental class mostly and for me like i i think like as a teenager i was at that time attention was something that like as a teenager like you want attention

and competing like racing it's it's a way to get attention uh of course if you want races like it's a way to get attention of course if you want races like it's like you get more attention but in another way like I'm very like an introvert person I get not stress but I if I'm the focus of

attention or if I'm with people I like I spend a lot of energy so that has been a struggling i have been yeah having four years and now i kind of like the last years i i kind of find a good balance between between uh accepting being in the focus accepting accepting being there and, and, uh, and being good with that. But, um, yeah, I think it's, um, yeah, it's something I, I, I wasn't really looking for. And I realized it was something I like you, it's always nice when people like, like what you do, but in another way, like, uh, it was like a weight that I didn't want to carry yeah it seemed from what i can tell from researching you and what's out there online you seem to have uh stripped away

all the kind of unnecessary noise in your life as much as possible so you can focus on the things that bring you joy and actually the thing that you love. Yeah, no, it's, we, yeah, and that's so hard today. Like we have so much pressure from everywhere, like social media, like it's so cool. Like I think social media is amazing in the way that you get like so much information that before you could not get because they were too geek and nobody wanted to share. But now you can get that and you can not get because they were too geek and nobody wanted to share.

But now you can get that and you can get so much inspiration and that's amazing. But on the other hand, like everybody's telling what you should do. And then like you seeing that what people want you to do is what you want to do. And you can lose your way on what you want to do. And, uh, and you can lose your way on what you want to do for real. And it's,

it's the same as like you are winning races and, and, and in a moment, like it feels easier to, to win races. And, and it's, uh,

you are, it's nice. Like you win, uh, people like you, um, it's, uh, it's, it's good. And like, uh, but,

uh, it's really that what I wanted to do, like to be carried on these, like a being more like, uh, famous in a way and like a being like, uh, uh, getting sponsors to, to winning races and that, or, or I wanted to go more to the mountains and do things even if i knew that i needed to sacrifice part of that and and then it's like i think we have one life we have one life and at the end of the day it's like what i have been doing what i wanted to do or i have things that i was not doing because i was too much carried away and and i think i think maybe you know us us you know people who were not top performing athletes we can learn a lot from that it's about that's what life is

it's about trying to find who you are what makes you happy and you know there'll be lots of forces in life that try and pull you away from that whether you're you know know, Colleen Jaunet or whether you're, you know, Joe Public. Yeah. And we all have to really, on some level, I think to really lead a happy and fulfilled life, we need to find out what it is that makes us happy, not what makes other people happy. Yeah, exactly. And that's nobody that will tell you. That's only you that can figure it out and and you need time for that and you need to cut you away from from influences but we are so afraid i think as a society we are so afraid about being alone like we are like need to be in conversation all the time. We are afraid about getting lost and about, but yeah, like it's not from simple situations that we will achieve things, I think,

and decisions that will close doors, will open other doors, but we need to accept that some doors need to be closed and we need to accept that some doors need to be closed and we need to accept that we can get lost and we can get hurt to finally achieve something. And that's something that is not like we valorize achievement, but we don't valorize like failure. And I think like failure, it's the biggest thing for learning like when you fail it's it's when you learn yeah and uh and it's a good thing yeah it's a good thing and and we are not like we are promoting like you you are a winner you do things good you are yeah and not

like you try what probably you will fail yeah it's funny you mentioned social media i agree it can be a real force for good and there's so much great stuff on there and guys if you haven't um seen killian's instagram page you really must it's just beautiful beautiful pictures of incredible scenery where you you have the pleasure of going to run um but i think this whole technology thing we which today obviously we've been seeing a lot of lectures on this together. I think this also lends itself to people being afraid of being by themselves because any spare moment they have, the phone comes out. People aren't really alone with their thoughts much anymore because you don't have to be. You can fill your space with this with this yeah whatever you want but i guess you don't when you go out running and you're really pushing your body you are alone

right yeah and yeah and scared uh no it's like i think it it discurs a lot of people and it's changing like now it's and it's a bit like uh yeah like it's some i i see more and more people like that is going to expeditions with the technology today like they can have the phone they can have internet in the base camps they can have internet up in the mountains they can be tweeting from or instagramming from the run and on a way it's, aren't we going to run out of expeditions to get away from that? And it's that, like, it's, yeah, we need to embrace that because, like, that's quality time. Like, when we want to spend quality time with someone, we want to be with this person. We want to be with our girlfriend, with our kids.

We don't want to have the phone there when we make sex. We don't want to be looking to Instagram. We want to spend time with this person. And I think we need to spend time with ourselves too. And that's to be bored and to accept this, like being bored and to face yourself. I think we are afraid many times to face ourselves. And then we need to find the spaces that mountains are mirrors, big, big mirrors.

And to be there and say, okay, now I don't have the phone. I don't have anybody to talk with. Okay, let's... What are you made of? Yeah. Yeah, it is incredible, isn't it? This, you know, I think about technology a lot because... And it helps a lot.

It helps a lot of things. It's great, but we need to find, yeah, it's... It's not, it's like, I don't know, it's not good. It's how we use it. It's how much we use it. It's like alcohol. You know, if you drink two bottles of wine every night for your life, it's probably going to have a damaging effect. But if you have a glass now and again, maybe, you know, the impact is different, right? So it's how we use it.

I absolutely, although I didn't do this with you this morning, but generally speaking, when I run, particularly with my son on a Saturday morning no phones no fitness trackers nothing because I just want to enjoy the experience and I also don't want to teach him from a young age that it's all about being able to take a photo for Instagram or you know I'm so conscious of not conditioning him in what I think is a very scary world now for technology and this sort of overuse of it so um it's let's talk about everest you have um you've run up to the top yeah well i i run the lower part and then i walk very very very slow to the top yeah so okay so you did that and then you came down again but you didn't just you weren't satisfied with just doing it once were you you did it twice in one week yeah that was it

was not in the plan but um that was it wasn't in the plan but so what happened i'd love to know what goes on in your mind there yeah well like i i did the first ascent like the goal of for me or what i had in mind it was like to to to see if for me it was possible to climb alone from the last village to the summit uh to see if i was i think to climb a mountain is different to reach a mountain than to climb it like to reach a mountain is to be in the summit you can go there by helicopter or you can go there like uh okay with oxygen or whatever like but to reach it like for me is like to be able to see me with my physical capacities, technical capacities, mental capacities, that I'm able to do alone from the bottom to the top without any help. And that was the goal.

Was that just on foot or did you need skis? No, it was by foot. And then I need crampons and Isaacs. But yeah. And then the story was like I climbed the summit, I went down and then, um, we had like one week, uh, left until flying back home. And I, I don't really like to lose time on a way. So it was like, okay, what we do?

Well, uh, it could be. And then I started thinking it could be interesting to see how it is the body to go up there again. So to spend so many hours over a thousand meters in a short period. And like, I love research. I love science. And it was like, it could be so cool to see how the body reacts on jazz if it's possible to go up again in a push and how it will be so that was kind of the motivation so you're just curious and you thought yeah hey i've got a bit of time let's let's do it yeah let's go to everest again yeah yeah it's not how i think but it's it's uh it's fantastic it's

um it's really great to get that insight into your mind as to what's going on and um it you know what comes across to me killing is that it seems as though you're this kid who grew up in the mountains and you just love the mountains, you love running. And it seems as though your life and your job and your career is just a progression of you following your passion. That's how it seems to me. Rather than doing it for glory or doing it for the acclaim or doing it for money, it seems to me as though in it for glory or doing it for the acclaim or doing it for money it seems to me as though in some way you're just still that little kid who loves to be in the mountains yeah like i think i'm i'm very lucky that i convert my passion as my work and uh and i think at the end it's what it makes me like i never think about i need to train

i need to to do this thing because it's like it's what i like to do i i don't need to i want to do it and and i think that's uh that makes things much easier like like it's passion. Like if you are passionate about something, it's effortless. Like you don't want to, it's not that you will spend time there, it's that the time will fly. And yeah, like being in the mountains and then, yeah, of course,

like you need to earn money to live and to eat and these things but but it's yeah it's more about yeah just doing what you do and and yeah you say when you're running it helps you um find out who you are and you you know a bit like a meditation in some ways so what happens you you know is a lot of my audience in this podcast probably don't run or they want to get healthier. They want to be hopefully inspired by this to start running, I hope, um, or, or whatever they they're passionate about more importantly. So what's going on? You, you are, you know, um, you're going up, you're trying to see if you can

get up to Everest by yourself and, you know, are you processing your emotions at that point or are you scared? Are you so present with what you're doing and the possible dangers? I mean, or does it vary depending on what's going on? I mean, what goes on there? Yeah, it can be very, a lot of things. And like when I go, for example, training home, it's more like I can really enjoy it, the landscape and the light and everything around. Or some days when I was in Everest, I was training up and it was some moments like it was in the summer in 2016 and I was alone in the mountain. It was like, wow, I'm at 8,000 meters. I'm the only person like in the mountain that's beautiful like to be there and just like embrace that moment.

You don't want to terminate. And it's like it's some feelings there and just like embrace that moment. You don't want to terminate. And it's like, it's some feelings that they are like, they are huge. Like you cannot describe. It's just like, you feel so, so, so small. And that's, I think it's, it's one of the greatest feelings ever. Is that like, you can say, okay, yeah. Like imagine like you are a world champion. You won this big race

and you think you are someone important. Then you go up there and you realize like you are a small dot in like you are a snowflake. And then I think that's it gives you so much freedom of like taking

away like, yeah, you can be whatever like you are, what it means to be like world champion. It means that that year, precisely, you were the fastest person in this competition. It's nothing in the history. It's nothing. So, and that means that you are free to do whatever you want. And we feel, yeah, you feel this freedom when you feel small. and we feel yeah you feel this freedom when you feel small and uh coming back to to to meditation and technique in big mountains i think climbing a big summit like that when you are in a technical

situation when you are in a in a in a in a moment that you need to really focus on what you are doing because because the consequence of doing wrong they are are fatal. If you take a bad decision, if you do a mistake, you die. It's a moment that you are really into the movement, you are really into the step, and you forgot about everything. Future don't exist and past don't exist. You are just in the present, and that's meditation. I think it's just like for during the time of the activity is not an emotion is not any not not fear is not um

not euphoria is not past is not future and it's just present and in your brain is kind of, is nothing. So you can be for hours with white in your brain and just focusing in the exam movement. That's, yeah, that's meditation, I would say. Yeah, just fully present in that moment. Something we're striving to do, but struggle to switch off. And I guess in some ways that's an enforced switch off because the consequences are so severe. You can't think of anything else. You're in that moment. Yeah, you cannot be focusing on other things.

And it's, yeah, and you cannot use the emotions. Because, of course, if you are afraid, you will panic or you will try to save yourself. And then you would probably take decisions based on that and not on what is reasonable. But the same, like if you have euphoria, if you are super happy, you will probably have these endorphins and you will not look to the possible dangers the same way.

So it's like, it's fun in a way that i go to the mountains because i i'm happy i find emotions there and when i go to climb these things the the the key to succeed and the key to to be back alive is to to take away emotions yeah so it is incredible i'm just thinking you face the prospect of death. I'm guessing, well, hey, not to anywhere near the same level as you have, but I've spent a lot of time in Chamonix in the mountains and I've got myself into some quite scary situations before, particularly when I was quite inexperienced. And I've been really, really scared. And you certainly do, it does focus your attention in a big, big way. But I guess my my question is you face the prospect you you're often i guess looking at death in the face

in some ways you you know a one wrong step and you could die in some ways does that make you feel more alive yeah that's for sure one of the reasons that people, we do like some kind of activities is because like you feel the life there. Like you feel the life in your fingers, you feel the life in your, like because you have this decision. And I think it's because it's very visual. Like when you are climbing a mountain, you can say, okay, if I have the power of my life in the hand because if if i take off the hand i fall and and i'm dead but we don't realize that that's that's also here like in in london like uh maybe like when you go to climb a mountain it's very visual because if you fall you die but probably the possibility of that happen

it's low because the preparation it has been very high and and i don't know any like alpinist that want to to kill himself but it's mostly about like you prepare to to do things that you are in control but for example when you are in a city and you are breathing every day like air that it's uh polluted like it's pollution and or you are eating uh you what you are eating every day uh maybe it's more risky than to climb a big mountain because like of course like the consequence it's less visual like if you fall a mountain you you you die straight and if you you eat in a high like in pollution or if you if you eat some things like probably you will have a big risk to to to have this kind of sickness or diseases. And it takes more time,

but maybe the probability is higher than climbing. So I think when you do these activities, you also realize risk is everywhere. It's just like which ones we want to accept and which ones we don't want and to build a lifestyle around that. You've become a father very recently. How long have you been a dad for now? It has been two months.

Two months only? Wow. You're looking very fresh. Yeah. Boy, girl? It's a little girl and yeah, she sleeps a lot. So we are very grateful for that. Yeah. So have you, obviously you're still training i'm guessing but i'm interested has and i guess your daughter's only eight you know two months old so um maybe you've not had time to think about this yet but do you think having a child will change your attitude to risk when you're up in the mountains? I don't know.

Because it's hard to predict emotions. Yeah. And it's, yeah, I have friends that they have changed. I have friends that they continue to do the same. And then, like I said, like when I do activities in the mountains that they have a risk, I normally don't want to put myself myself to my risk i want to do things that i feel control and like i i'm someone that i'm very afraid in general like i don't uh

and really yeah yeah yeah and the thing is like when i do something i i prepare and i know that it's on my capacities and that I have tried to calculate all the objective things that can happen. And then I know, okay, it's this subjective risk, like things that I cannot control. And it's this amount. And then it's where the decision of like, I want to do it or not. But I try to control everything. And it's not about like, I want to do it or not, but I try to control everything. And it's not about like, it looks fun, I go there. No, it's a lot of study behind everything and knowledge about yourself.

And of course, like it's risk-taking, but it's, yeah, it's calculated and yeah. Yeah, it's such an interesting insight because you're at that elite level. So. It's such an interesting insight because you're right. You're, you're at that elite level. So you're preparing as an elite athlete. You're, you're,

you know, you, you're limiting and probably removing as much risk as you possibly can. And I guess it's probably in some ways, no different from what, you know, I don't know if I'm crossing a street and a busy road in London, um,

you know, there's a risk there, you know, there's a, isn't there? It's kind of, it's a great point London, you know, there's a risk there, you know, isn't there? It is there, yeah. It's a great point, actually. But the public will naturally perceive your risk to be higher because you're up on a mountain and you're thinking, hey, if this goes wrong, but maybe the actual risk isn't that much different. No, and it's because, like, when you see someone doing something you see him but you

don't feel what he feels and like you picturize yourself there and of course like if I picturize myself like I don't know like surfing I would say I'm going to die because I don't know how to to swim

in these big waves and if something happens if I fall or if I crash into the rocks, and it's because I don't know how to surf. And probably someone from London will picturize him or herself running a ridge and would say, my feet will not be in the good place or I will not see this coming. And for me, it's the same. Like when I go in a city,

like I don't know, like if I need to look to the right or to the left or like the red lights, like I don't have red lights in my village, a small village, like you cross the street and like all these things. And it's just too,

because we picture ourselves in the skin of that person, what we don't see what he feels. It's maybe like he's super safe there because, yeah, it's used to and it's in their skills. It's what's your comfort zone, right? What's your usual comfort zone? And then where are you going to push outside it? Yeah.

It's, man, it's so fascinating hearing your insight. It really is. Focus. Do you do anything to prepare and really focus before a big event, a big race or something dangerous in the sense, this is something that we can learn, you know, how we can help improve sort of focus in our own lives? Yeah, I think visualization, for example, is something important to visualize what are you going to do,

to visualize all the aspects from small details. And it can be like the big picture, like, for example, if I have a race, like to look how many kilometers and how many elevation or where is the stations or all these things, the gear I will use and when I will eat and drink. So don't go to do what you are going to do like without knowing what's going on.

But also like sometimes it's more detailed. Like you can visualize, for example, finishing the race, like the emotion you will feel or like the fear or like what if something goes wrong, what you get prepared for what's going on you you you have already been there and and if you get better on that like practicing more and more you has been already there then and it's it yeah fewer things that you for surprise but you're the neuroscience backs that up but the neuroscience says that you know if you really actively visualize being there in that moment sometimes your brain can't tell the difference and actually it is like you have already been there yeah yeah for sure but then uh yeah it's always different like of course it's different but you need to be prepared for

because like i think it's important to visualize, but it's important to know that things, yeah, it's always things that happens that you have not provisioned and you need to be at ease with that, that you need to be relaxed with change and prepare for changing all the time. And I think it's about adaptation and and getting adapted and and for that like i think like uh i'm not a big like

meditation person like traditional meditation or like uh i know like some people can find through yoga or through meditation or through different things. But I think getting, how to say that? Yeah, like, for example, before I was, before a big race, I was so nervous. Like I could not control my anxiety there. Like it was like, I could not breathe. It was like until the moment of the start. And it was all this because you see the goal before and it feels too big.

It feels so important. It feels that you are, you don't know if you are ready, if you can make it, if what, yeah, it feels that you are you don't know if you are ready if you can make it if what yeah it's it feels bigger for you and then like um i think after some experiences in the mountains um you you realize and i has come there by by by more like a logical thinking is like, what's the worst that can happen that I lose the race? Well, that's not that bad, no? But before like losing a race, it looked like such a big thing.

And I think so many times like we are so close to this problem that we don't take the perspective on looking. Like, you cannot see, like, if you are in the foot of a difficult mountain, you look up and you don't see the mountain. You see it's too difficult. You don't see the whole picture. You need to go back, go away, and then you can see where it's easy difficult it's you don't see the the whole picture you need to to to go back go away and then you you can see where it's easy to go and and that can come through through many techniques

and i find like yeah yeah my technique was to try to rationalize and and and then it was things like experience like when when you have close calls uh some accidents, things that then you realize, okay, what's important and what's not important. And then, yeah, you realize that, yeah, that mountain, maybe it wasn't that big. I guess we can all, you know, you were talking literally around mountains, but we can almost talk about it metaphorically, you know. Yeah, like a job interview, a conference, I don't know, a job you need to do. It's everywhere, I think. Have you ever been injured for a length of time where you couldn't run?

I had one big injury when I was 17 years old and I had one big injury last year so it has been like uh and the project was very different when i was 17 years old like i was kind of like really like picking up like progressing a lot and i was i remember i did a race uh a vertical race and i i beat who was at the time the world champion and I was just a junior and it was like oh wow I'm on my peak and then two days after I was uh coming back from school and I jumped from one street to the other coming home and I fell in my knee and I break my uh my uh kneecap so not on the mountain just no just in the streets there you go what you're saying about risk before as well exactly um and that was like it was depressing like it was like for me what i'm gonna do a doctor say i will walk and whatever but probably not compete at high level and all my life was there like for me it was like everything what i what i'm gonna do and it was kind of depression

but uh i uh i turned that pretty fast on say okay um i don't know how it will be but i know that i will use this time to to try to improve on other things so i i read a lot at that moment i was reading a lot of physiology a lot of biomechanics a lot of psychology and and that was helping me a lot like the athlete i was after i i have a leg that it's it's working much less better than the other so like uh i i don't have the same strength but uh the athlete i was after i was much more I was racing better because mentally I was better prepared I was probably smarter on the way of training and so it was an opportunity and I'm very grateful from this injury because it was an opportunity to to to learn other things that if

not I was too much into into that it's a bit like what you were saying about failure that an injury is not failure but you were saying about failure. An injury is not failure, but you were saying at the start that failure should be embraced because we can learn from it. And I guess not quite the same thing, but a similar principle. You were injured, you felt low, couldn't race, but then you had to think, well, what else can you do? What can you learn from that experience? And I guess that was when you were 17, but you also said you had an injury last year. So did the learnings from when you were 17 and injured did they help you last year when you were injured yeah and mostly because now I know that if you like an injury it's it's part of the part of the game and it's not that you will like when I was 17 it was was like, okay, my career, it's, it's finished. And now it was like, okay,

I'm like six months off. That's all. And I knew that, uh, that it will be fine. And, and it was like, okay, it's, it's not fun because I like to, to run outside, but then, okay, yeah, I will take this time and I will finish the book I was writing and I will, uh, uh, study more. I will do other things that I normally don't have the time and and just know that it will take a bit of time to get back to to the shape but it will come back and it's not that big deal I think the lesson for us can be um you know that that life goes through ups and downs and it's it's almost as if it's almost I guess I'm saying this because it's something i'm

trying to do more of in my own life is just letting go and just accepting what happens and when it comes it comes and when it's not there it's not there but just know that there's an up and down and a flow to life i i wonder how much of this comes with age and experience um it's a lot harder i think to think this way when we're sort of young and we want to take on the world right yeah and that's yeah that's so interesting and and and it's on a way it's so cool when you are young because you are so hungry and like you fight so much and like it's like the emotions are so big like it's like you do something good and it's like, bam, an explosion of euphoria. Like it's so intense. And when you get older, like the motions are not that sharp,

but you get much more the small things and these things are like the fulfillment, it's bigger, I would say. And you see the world and you see the activity in a completely different phase. And I think that's interesting. And it's, yeah, I think they are all great. It's just like you need to accept that, yeah, some things that you had when you were young, they will never, yeah yeah not be here again but some but it's not

because the frustration of that that you would yeah not to see the things that you didn't see when you were young and that you are able to take now do you think you get more joy from i'm not sure how you're going to answer this actually judging from from what you said so far do you get more joy from winning a race or from something like going up Everest twice in one week, which I don't think has been done before? So you're not really competing against someone. You're almost competing against yourself, really, pushing your own body to your own limits. I don't know. What is it that drives you more or what makes

you happier more? Well, like, uh, now it's, uh, for sure the latest. And of course, when I was young, like I wanted to win the race, I wanted to be world champion. I wanted to win like ultra trial of Mont Blanc, uh, CRG now, whatever. You won it three times, right? Yeah. That's just incredible. But it was like, like, I feel, like I was feeling I needed to win the race and I was so hungry

on doing it. And, and, and, and now, like, like it's, it's always cool

like to win a race, but it's, it's just like kind of part of, like, it's good cool like to win a race but it's it's just like kind of part of like it's good because like uh i would say like before it was about like beating the others yeah being first and then it changed about like now it's uh it's about uh pushing myself to to to my limits and pushing myself to, to where I want to be. And then it's like using the competition, using like, uh, the, the excitement of the

race, using the, the, the other runners to help me to push there. And at the end, like, uh, before if, uh, if I was second, I don't know, in a big championship, I could be, I I could be angry or whatever. And now the result doesn't matter at all. I can win or be second or be last one. But at the end, if I have pushed myself, if I have used the competition to drive me there, physically or mentally, that's the goal.

And then it's when the the project like doing some things in the mountains doing some things like Everest or like long crossings get interesting because it's like to push my body and to push there without the need of of the competition so how to learn to push myself this much without this tool that is that is a race can you explain to people listening what the ultra trail de mont blanc is because many of them probably don't know exactly what that race entails yeah well that's a hundred mile race so like totally mont blanc is the highest summit in in the alps and the concept is pretty simple like you run around the mountain and that's like 100 miles and it's like 10,000 meters of elevation.

So it's like you run up and down different passes to get around the mountain. And how long does it typically take? Well, like... Well, for you. I'm not saying that's typical, but how does it take you? Yeah, no, for us it takes like around 20 hours,

like, yeah, something like that. So through the night? Yeah, we run through the night and then the other day so that's uh yeah uh sleeping deprivation it's something that is interesting yeah for sure for sure um it's interesting that you're saying that it used to be about being first but now it's about in many ways pushing yourself to your own limits to see what you can achieve. And I want to just talk to you about road racing for a minute, because, um, like maybe a month, a month and a half ago, um, was the London marathon and, um, Kipchoge was running and he won the race. And, um, I was watching it with my son because he's really quite into running and we were watching

it. And I was trying to explain to him that even the people coming second or third were absolutely running amazing times and some of them were on personal best it just so happens that they're running against maybe one of these human like yeah it's like he's in his own league yeah exactly so you so in many ways it's like it's not necessarily I was trying to see if it's not necessarily about being first it's about trying to be the best that you can be because those guys were running their best race and they should be happy that they've got a, let's say a personal best. That's like, there's not much more they could do. So that is quite fascinating that hearing, hearing your sort of perspective, but also do you, you know, you do a different form of racing. Do you watch

someone like Kipchoge and watch his times? And do you get excited at thinking, hey, you know, he wants to try and break two hours. I mean, what does that do to you when you don't run that kind of race? Like, I love it. Like I follow, I love to follow sports and especially like endurance sports. And I has been like, I was uh london marathon life i was actually

in my treadmill like training and looking to that and it was so and berlin marathon and like all the like the soup too they did in in monza and so i think it's like it's so interesting like to see how they train and like how they uh, everything. I think it's so interesting to read and to watch other sports and to take knowledge from there. And I think Kipchoge, he's just so amazing. I mean, you say he's superhuman. A lot of people would regard you to be superhuman. I know you're probably too modest to think that about yourself,

but there is that perception that you can push your body to extremes and maybe tolerate a lot of pain to get where you need to get to. So, you know, I guess, do you ever think, I wonder what my time would be if I did the London Marathon? You know, I'm a fast trail runner. I don't know. Does that go through your minds well yes sometimes like the thought of like uh what it would be like to to run on like a flat race a marathon but then like if i would like to do that i would like to train for that and for that it means like i need to spend

like at least half a year on like training flat and i sure i would not be like at the times of of uh of these guys that has been running like flat for uh decades but uh but on the other way when i visualize myself or like running flat for like six months like no way like it's yeah i cannot do it like i want to do things in the mountains and it's it's completely different but uh yeah it's it's just so inspiring to to get towards that but hearing you is so inspiring actually because it there's this just constant drive that you want to do what makes you happy that yeah there may be an athletic challenge to do see how fast you could go on a road race.

But I saw in your face the thought of being six months away from the mountains. I guess you're thinking, what's the point of that? I don't want to do that with my life. And I take a lot of inspiration from that to think, wow, it's that single. It appears certainly to be like a single minded drive to living your best life, the life that you want. That nobody else is going to tell you how to live your life. And I think that's certainly a lesson we can all learn from this. Yeah, try to do that.

Try to live your life. We have one. We cannot give it to others. I just want to move on to health for a second, if you don't mind. I'm intrigued. You're a high-performing athlete. And in my very first book, I spoke about what I consider to be the four core pillars of health, the four things that I think have the most impact on the way that we feel, that we've also got a high degree of control over. Food, movement, sleep, and relaxation. So I'm intrigued as to how you think you do on those four areas.

Food? Food, well, I'm not like obsessed about food. Like I know that's, in sports it's very important to eat well, but sometimes it gets too obsessive. That's a big problematic. But I think I eat good. We, or like Emily, my wife, she has a big garden with a lot of veggies,

and we eat most part of our veggies just from the garden. They are natural. We have potatoes for all the year from the garden. So I eat a lot of carbs because I train a lot, so it can be potatoes, rice, bread, or pasta, but then it's mostly carbs and veggies. I like sweets too, but like not that much. Like I like chocolate, but yeah, then I spend it too.

And mostly like I eat vegetarian. Have you always been vegetarian? I have not always. Like my mother, she's vegetarian. So when like we didn't eat much meat kids uh so it's not it was like it's not that it was uh really like it's not i don't really enjoy meat so it's not like i think i want to eat vegetarian because that that that is it's mostly because i i enjoy and enjoy meat and then um also it's more like uh about uh uh yeah more about uh sustainability than than a food

choice um but yeah it has never eat much meat and i has feel good on my body so i think it's my body works well like that um movement you get a lot of movement yeah maybe that's a bit too much to be healthy i was gonna come to that actually but yeah movement we are okay uh sleep i'm not a big sleeper i really but no like yeah i can sleep seven hours a day normally but um i'm good on sleeping when i'm tired like if i'm very tired i can like get a reset and like sleep like eight nine hours and then i'm fresh uh but i can spend like two days without sleeping for example in the mountains and be good uh and then but i think uh yeah my body is okay on regulating on like when i need to sleep. My body tells me and I'm able to sleep very good.

Well, that's good. It sounds like you can sleep what you think your body needs. Yeah, exactly. No more, no less. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And relaxation, which is the whole stress piece at the end. How do you feel you do with that? Are you able to switch off and relax and chill?

It goes and comes. Like it's moments like I think now i'm in a good period like these last years uh i can't really yeah relax myself more and it has been moments that i has been much more stress um but uh what do you do when you're stressed um what i do when i stress um i go out you go running yeah i go out and and yeah and i think these some kind of it's this kind of activities where you need to focus in the moment we're talking about about before when you you see not future not past you are just concentrating the moment that's kind of my way like when you do something very technical or a bit more risky.

It's not that I advise people to take risks, to be relaxed. I'm not close to that, no, I'm pretty sure. But yeah, I think it's just to get your mind blank, but not to get bored. So it's just to do one activity that it fulfills yourself, but that you are not thinking about anything else. It's about getting into flow state, that state where you're not doing something so challenging

that you could never attain it, but it's just a little bit challenging where all your attention is focused on it. And it's that sweet spot and some some people um my patients often have reported back and um that indoor climbing for them yeah can do that so they they struggle to switch off in fact i just gave a master class here on stress and somebody asked me a question afterwards and they said i'm i've always got so many things to do and i've got a lot of downtime though and And in my downtime, I just worry about what I have to do at work. I can't switch off.

And I said, look, you should try something. You need to find an activity that engages you so much that actually you're fully engrossed in it. And it just forces you to switch off. You're not trying to switch off. You just are switched off. And I suggested climbing and she said, yeah, I'm going to try that actually actually i i love climbing and so it's just these little things i think we we all need to do that that suit us yeah exactly also reading like good book you get immersed on there and you are lost for hours in the book and you are in another world yeah i think it's to find yeah activities or or or things that you you really go away and and you enjoy it and you are able to yeah to switch off everything else yeah you mentioned over exercise for health

and potentially yeah i mean obviously that's your thing um but i i talk about a stress threshold that we've all got our own personal stress threshold and we can deal with multiple stresses up to a point until we get to our threshold. And when we get to our threshold is when we feel stressed. Um, we, we, we get angry with the people around us. We snap, um, our back or our neck might go because we're so stressed. And I wonder for you, if we look at your stress threshold, it sounds as though you're running and your physical activity pushes you close because

you're pushing your body so hard. It's a stress on your body. But I get the impression from you that when you're not running, you almost, as you say, you have solitude, you switch off, you read. Almost it's a way of balancing out the stress from the exercise is does that ring true with you at all yeah or i think it's i find similarities in both because both are like activities that they are kind of quiet uh it can be excitement but it's more about uh yeah this um but yeah sure that it's a bit yin yang like i have the running that is very intense and it's more about uh yeah this um but yeah sure that it's a bit the yin yang like i have the running that is very intense and it's physical and then it's like uh like yeah reading or like just uh yeah uh drawing or things like that that they are very like soft uh to the body is it's and

yeah probably it's it's i need both but yeah then we said like uh elite sport is not healthy on a point of view like not only because the injuries but yeah for sure like you push your body so much like i'm sure like it's uh yeah we need to accept that it's not yeah it's probably over yeah yeah maybe not the best thing for longevity potentially but i also think there is something to the stress response and this whole idea that yeah you're stressing in one area of your life but then if you compensate by having low stress and others then it kind of keeps it in equilibrium and balance yeah sure in the stress yeah probably because it's through that

uh yeah and you're in nature yeah right nature de-stresses us yeah that that's for sure and so you do all you're running not on a road and we're in traffic and on pavements you're in nature. Yeah. Right? Nature de-stresses us. Yeah, that's for sure. And so you do all your running, not on a road, and we're in traffic and on pavements. You're doing it out in the mountains, right? Yeah. And just like you are out there, you stop and like silence. Like what's the last time you have been hearing like nothing, silence, and just like a bit of wind or a bird and and be there and just like listen for five minutes and and

focusing on silence and that's it's relaxing like it it yeah it's it's another it's another thing that we've eroded out of society downtime silence and every time now where we have silence or an opportunity for silence, many of us don't take it. We fill it with something else, whether it's music or social media or emails or the news or whatever. And there is something powerful about that silence for sure. Well, Cillian, look, I can't tell you how much of enjoyed our conversation to have an hour with you, someone of your caliber to actually, you know, tap your mind and learn and running with you this morning was just a real honor. I was struggling to keep up with your with your slow pace. Not at all. finish off, I use this podcast, I record it because I want to inspire people. You know,

my goal is to inspire every listener to think that they can be the architects of their own health. And I think you are inspiring thousands, hundreds of thousands around the world with what you're doing. Have you got any sort of tips for people who are listening you know little things that they can think about doing in their own life even if they're not living in the mountains like you that's going to help them get more out of their life i think as we said like find nature find it can be a park it can be uh like uh go the weekend somewhere where it's it's it's it's this connection to who we are and it can be only for a few minutes but i think that's important to to find a moment to find the animal we are and that's uh mentally it's it's important and uh to to be there and to to listen to to the nature to listen to to the, to listen to the ocean, the wind, wherever.

Find a few minutes for that. And then I believe we need to be good in our body to be good in our mind too. And I think both are very related. So exercise, it's an exercising. I mean exercise it's an exercising I mean it's about the foot, it's about moving it's important

so like it can be just small things like not take the elevator but walk the stairs, it can be like when you go for a small tragic not to take a cab or the subway but to walk like when you go for a small tragic, not to take a cab or the subway, but to walk.

I think it's good to move our body because we need as an animal. And for the hormones too, it's important to be that. And I think it's to get back actually to be more animals, like to move, to be connected to nature and this it can sound easier when we are like living in in the mountains but in a city we can find parks we can find movement and try to find that yeah for sure nature and get moving great tips for people killian um if people want to keep up with you, if they want to find out what you're doing, I mentioned your Instagram page already. Where can they keep up

with what you're doing? I know you do a lot of films. Is there somewhere people can access all the information about you? Yeah, sure. They can go, as you say, like social media, Instagram, it's KillianJournet. And also like my website, it's killianjornet.com. So I think like they can find all the, all the information is there. Fantastic. Well guys, as always, I'm going to link to all the things that Killian and I spoke about, some of his videos, his websites, his social media, and the show notes page for this episode of the podcast. So do check it out. I think you really are going to be inspired. Killian, look, I wish you all the well with everything you're doing with your next race,

with being a father. I'm looking forward to seeing how that develops. Thank you for giving up an hour of your time today. I really appreciate it. And I hope to see you again soon. Thank you very much. That concludes this week's episode of the Feel Better Live More podcast.

How did you find the conversation? For me personally, I really enjoyed my sit down chat with Killian. I found his single-minded drive to live the life that he wants to live truly inspiring. And I think we can all take something from his outlook on life. As always, do try and have a think about something specific you can take away from this episode to apply in your own life immediately. This is why I do these podcasts, to try and give you some weekly inspiration on how you might be able to improve the way that you feel so that you can get more out of life. I hope you enjoyed Killian's tips.

It is amazing how many of my guests on the podcast talk about spending more time in nature. In fact, if you want to find out more about the benefits of nature, as well as the science underpinning that recommendation, there is an entire chapter dedicated to this in my most recent book, The Stress Solution, which is available to order all over the world. Please do let Killian and I know what you thought of today's conversation.

Both Killian and myself are active on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. And genuinely, my guests and I really do love to hear the feedback to our conversations. So please do let us know and wherever possible, please try and use the hashtag FBLM so that we can easily find your comments. try and use the hashtag FBLM so that we can easily find your comments. This week, it is well worth checking out the show notes page to this episode, which will be drchastity.com forward slash 66466. There is a summary of everything that we discussed. There are awe-inspiring videos, links to films that Killian has made, and to many different articles about him. So please do check out the show notes page drchastity.com forward slash 66. Some of the videos are utterly amazing and his Instagram feed is full of beautiful pictures from exotic locations all over the world.

A lot of the themes that were discussed today and in previous episodes are covered in detail in both of my books, The Four Pillar Plan and The Stress Solution. Both are really accessible guides on how you can improve your health, full of practical tips to help you feel better so that you can get more out of life. Both books have over 800 reviews on Amazon now, with the average rating being five stars. reviews on Amazon now with the average rating being five stars. You can pick up both books in all the usual places as paperbacks, ebooks, as well as audiobooks, which I am narrating. If you enjoy my weekly shows, one of the best ways you can support them is by leaving a review on whichever platform you listen to podcasts on. You can also help me spread the word by taking a screenshot right now and sharing with your friends and family on your social media channels. Or if you prefer, simply do it the

good old-fashioned way and tell your friends and family about the show. I really do appreciate your support. A big thank you to Richard Hughes for editing the podcast, Vid for producing, and to Ali Ferguson and Liam Saunders for the theme tune. That is it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure that you have pressed subscribe and I will be back in one week's time with my latest episode. Remember, you are the architects of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it, because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time.