Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #78 How to Reverse Childhood Obesity with Kim Roberts

Episode Date: October 11, 2019

SPECIAL EPISODE FOR WORLD OBESITY DAY to support a charity called HENRY, which is doing amazing work to combat childhood obesity. The statistics look gloomy. 1 in 10 children are obese when they start school and the odds are stacked against them. Only 1 in 20 children who starts school obese, will be a healthy weight when they leave primary school. But finally, there is a glimmer of hope. Have HENRY found a solution to reverse the trend? Their results so far are extremely promising. Today, I talk to Chief Executive of HENRY, Kim Roberts about the amazing work that HENRY does and what they have achieved so far. HENRY believes that the problem doesn’t just lie in what people are eating and tries to work with parents to create healthy environments. Kim explains that empathy before education is key and that HENRY takes a holistic approach to helping families become healthier and happier. The practitioners that HENRY trains have reported that they too have benefited from the training and have made positive change in their lives. HENRY’s approach echoes my own approach when tackling health of families and I believe that if it was available to all families, we would be a happier, healthier nation. At a time when childhood obesity is on the rise and we are at risk of our children having a lower life expectancy than their parents, it has never been more imperative to talk about these issues. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Show notes available at drchatterjee.com/henry Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We know actually that probably the least effective way of helping people change is telling them what to do. And so what we've been doing at Henry is learning about what does help people to change those entrenched habits. Hi, my name is Rangan Chastji, GP, television presenter and author of the bestselling books, The Stress Solution and The Four-Pillar Plan. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people, both within as well as outside the health space, to hopefully inspire you, as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel.

I believe that when we are healthier, we are happier because when we feel better, we live more. Hello and welcome back to episode 78 of my Feel Better Live More podcast. My name is Rangan Chastji and I am your host. This is a special episode for World Obesity Day to support an amazing charity called Henry, which is doing phenomenal work in combating childhood obesity. The statistics look really gloomy. One in 10 children are obese when they start school and the odds are stacked against them. Only one in 20 children who start school obese will be a healthy weight when they leave primary school.

But finally, there is a glimmer of hope. Have Henry found a solution to reverse the trend? The results so far are extremely promising. On today's episode of the podcast, I talk to Chief Executive of Henry, Kim Roberts, about the amazing work that Henry does and what they have achieved so far. Henry believes that the problem doesn't just lie in what people are eating and tries to work with parents to create healthy environments. Kim explains that empathy before education is key and she shares the holistic approach that Henry takes to help families become healthier and happier. The practitioners that

Henry trains have reported that they too have benefited from the training and have made positive changes in their own lives. Henry's approach very much echoes my own 360 degree approach to health and I believe that if it was available to all families we would be a happier and healthier nation. I think what Henry have done is simply incredible and gives us a lot of hope that we can actually reverse the growing tide of childhood obesity. I think this is a really important conversation and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Now before we get started, as always, I'm just going to give a quick shout out to the sponsors of today's show who are essential in order for me to continue putting out weekly episodes like this one. I'm delighted that Vivo Barefoot Shoes support my podcast. As you may

already know, I'm a huge fan of minimalist shoes and have been wearing Vivo Barefoot Shoes support my podcast. As you may already know, I am a huge fan of minimalist shoes and have been wearing Vivo Barefoot Shoes now for many years, as have my entire family. I strongly believe that our feet are one of the most important parts of our body for our movement and our musculoskeletal health. Their function influences how we walk, run, and so much more. Not only have I used them myself for years and found them extremely beneficial, but I have also used them with many of my patients, especially when it comes to issues such as hip pain, knee pain, and back pain. Vivo Barefoot shoes are thin, wide, and flexible, and they make shoes for every occasion for both adults and children. For listeners of my show,

they have come up with a great deal. They are offering 20% off to all new customers in the UK, USA, Australia, and selected EU countries. If you have thoughts about giving them a go, this is a great incentive to start. It is important for me to say that they offer a 100-day free trial for new customers. So if you're not happy, you can simply send them back for a full refund. I think this is an amazing offer. So if you have been sitting on the fence about trying minimalist shoes, do consider taking advantage. You can get 20% off for new customers by going to vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more. That is vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation.

So Kim, welcome to the Feel Better Live More podcast. Thank you. It's lovely to be here. Yeah, look, you've spent a lot of time traveling today. You've come up to my house to record this and I really appreciate it. I think to start off, I should probably say how I became aware of your work. And I think it was at the start of May from recollection, I saw this article in the Guardian newspaper stating that leads have started to reverse or turn back the tide of childhood obesity, something that no other UK city to my knowledge had done at that point. And I really was struck because a lot of the headlines around obesity and childhood obesity

can be quite negative. A lot of the time it can feel like doom and gloom. Are we actually going to make a difference here? Are we actually going to be able to solve this problem? And it really gave me a glimmer of hope when I read that. And you are working with Henry, aren't you? And Henry are the charity behind what's been going on in Leeds? So yeah, Henry is a national charity. And we started about 10, 11 years ago now as a practical obesity prevention intervention. One of our co-founders, Mary Rudolph, was Professor of Child Health in Leeds. And she had been seeing obese teenagers in her clinics and realized that it's

really hard to actually reverse obesity once it's established and became more and more persuaded that if we were going to do something about these sort of you know persistent and rising rates of child obesity it needed to happen upstream um and that the time to really make a difference was at the beginning of life so mary worked with um with um her colleagues in Henry to develop... I mean, the thing about Henry is that it's multilayered. We're not just one thing. We're recognising that there's different touch points for families bringing up young children

and that we need to be able to influence those different touch points. But yeah, our focus, we're working in 40 local authorities across the country now. Our focus is on really making a difference to the start that children get in life. Because actually what we've learned over the last 10 years is that what's good for preventing obesity is good for all children. And so the two go hand in hand. What does Henry stand for? Yeah, good question. So Henry stands for health, exercise, nutrition for the really young. I'm fascinated that you and Henry have decided to put your focus on really young children. I mean,

first of all, what does really young mean and I guess the following question is why do you think it's so important to intervene at that age rather than let's say when someone's a teenager or they're 15 16 years old yeah I mean I think I think there's very there's different reasons for that I mean that one of the chief ones is that for all of us, it's much easier to get into good habits than try and change entrenched unhealthy habits later on. And I would say that for myself. moment of opportunity to get babies and young children off on that path of healthy attitudes to eating activity, food preferences. It's also a time in a family's life when they have a lot of contact with helping professionals, whether it's during pregnancy, early education, health visitors. So again, there's a moment of opportunity there to be able to put in the kind of help that might make a difference. And one of the things that we were really aware of was that traditional approaches to

obesity prevention are focused very much on providing information. So information about what families should be eating, how much activity young children should be getting, how much activity their parents should be getting. clothes really because I think everybody working in public health probably realizes that if providing leaflets and information about what people should be doing was enough to make them do it you know we'd sort of all be out of a job really. If we just solved the problem. We would yeah and so we sort of all know that I mean I, I remember that, you know, a health visitor who came on Henry training saying to me, you know, she was talking about her work with the mother of an obese three-year-old. She says, and I sit there giving her advice and I know she's not going to follow any of it. So it's really thinking about, okay, we know actually that probably the least

effective way of helping people change is telling them what to do. And so what we've, I think, been doing at Henry is learning about what does help people to change those entrenched habits. And, you know, what do we need to do as helpers to get alongside parents and help them to make the changes that will be in their children's interest well you're clearly doing something right um that's evident by all the press attention you got by the actual stats and and actually do you have those stats to hand what exactly have you managed to achieve in the lead so far yeah i mean leads is you know did it did attract a lot of excitement. I should say

that, you know, we can't really claim that Leeds is the first city to ever reduce child obesity. But I think what we can see from the statistics is that something pretty exciting is happening in terms of where obesity rates are falling in the city. I mean, there have been other pockets of success across the country. University of Oxford did this statistical analysis of child obesity rates at age five in Leeds and compared those with the England national average and other demographically similar cities, so 15 comparator cities. similar cities, so 15 comparator cities. And over a period of six years found that, and the fall was statistically significant, rates of obesity at age five had fallen by around six to 7% from 9.4 to 8.4%, which sounds like a small drop, but actually that is when you actually think about

children, that means that at the moment, 625 children a year are no longer obese when they start school. So that's sort of- In Leeds. In Leeds. I mean, that's incredible. And that gives it the sort of human scale, I think. But what really excites me and my colleagues at Henry is that the biggest drop in the city was in the deprived areas. And that's the bit that is really bucking the trend because what's happening across the country, because there's a huge sort of association between poverty and obesity, is that rates of obesity in the most deprived areas are either climbing or just staying very sort of persistently stuck at a high rate, which can be double. I mean, the rates of obesity in deprived

areas can be double those in more affluent areas. And in Leeds, you know, in the deprived areas, rates fell by almost 10%. That's an incredible statistic. And I think you've really touched on something that is so important. It's almost like the elephant in the room and the whole obesity conversation, because, you know, we talk about the things that we all should be doing to look after ourselves, to be healthy. We look at the childhood obesity problem across this country here in the UK, but also many countries across the world. And, we're giving out more information aren't we but there we've got to recognize that actually where you live what the socio-economic status of your family is is a huge if not the major determinant of whether you're going to be obese or not and that's what what really excites me

about your statistics that I read was that you're making an arguably a bigger impact in that demographic. So why is that? What is it about your approach that is managing to penetrate these parts of society where previously we've been unable to do so? Yeah, so I agree. I mean, it is really exciting. And for me, that's the gold dust, really, if we can make that kind of difference so that the odds aren't stacked against children from birth, depending on where they're born and the community that they live in. So I think there's different things. I think one of the things is that in Leeds, things. I think one of the things is that in Leeds, as a city, they've really kept their strategic focus on the early years. They've kept their children's centres open. And that's been part and parcel of being able to provide the support that Henry has been providing in the city.

So Henry has been working really closely with the public health team in Leeds for 10 years. And what we've done together is embed support for families across the city in different ways. So recognising, as I said earlier, that young families have contact with helping professionals in a way that they don't in their children's later life every health visitor in leeds every children's center worker child minders um nursery workers have all been trained by henry so it's a very joined up approach very joined up so that means that when a family is is is you know all of those touch points when when a family goes to somebody for help, support, or they're having one of their regular health visiting visits, you know, families have five across their children's early years. They're getting support from somebody who's been trained in going beyond giving advice to really having the sort of quality of conversations that are about helping

people make changes. So that's the sort of, you know, changing the system around the family. And then within the children's centres, which are located in the most deprived areas of the city, we've been running the Henry eight-week family programme, which parents come to and that's about really working with them to help them develop their confidence their motivation their skills their understanding to make changes at home this eight-week program what happens so so how does someone access that for example is it you know would a mum let's say be you know at the GP practice for either of themselves or actually for their four-year-olds and um it may come up in conversation that hey you know uh that there may be an obesity issue that we can maybe help you with here and then

they get referred how does all that work and what happens in that program yeah so yeah um two big questions there um so the first thing is that we don't target the program purely at families where obesity is an issue this is something that's been offered in leeds universally as a sort of healthy families program so we call it healthy families right from the start um of course, health visitors or other professionals who are concerned about weight issues in the family can refer families to the programme. But I think one of the things that we've learned over the years is that uptake is going to be much more effective if we can keep the focus of the programme broad and position it with families as this is something that's good for all families. This is about becoming a healthier, happier family

rather than you need to go on this because you've got an obese child. And is that one of the problems with the traditional obesity approaches that it does feel or parents and families may feel judged, judged and unfairly targeted and then the walls go up and they potentially don't want to engage because they don't like the way in which they've been asked to engage. Exactly. I mean, we're talking about one, you know, probably two of the most sensitive personal issues. We're talking about people's parenting and we're talking about lifestyle and weight. And there, you know, there are two things that people feel incredibly sensitive about. And,

and we did some research when we were developing Henry, um, with families about, you know, what was their experience when they, when they sought help, if they did have concerns about, um, about their children's weight. And the vast majority said that they either felt judged. And so, you know, that just sort of that experience made them think, well, I'm never going to talk to anybody about it again, or they felt that their concerns were dismissed. And I think, you know, what that points to and why we focus so much on training, helping professionals in our work, is that it points to health and early years professionals themselves not feeling confident about how to have those very sensitive conversations in a way that won't cause offence or will take people's concerns seriously, people's concerns seriously, but still leave them feeling respected and valued as a parent.

So moving on to the program, I mean, I think there's two things that I'd really like to focus on. One is how, you know, the sort of ethos, the approach, the atmosphere, and the other is, you know, what we actually do. So let me start with the approach, the atmosphere, and the other is, you know, what we actually do. So let me start with the approach because that's, I think, the starting point. One of the things that gets bandied around a lot, and I don't know if you've come across this in your work as a doctor, is this phrase readiness for change. And a lot of preventive health promotion services talk about what you know even have as a as a criteria for being able to get a service that somebody has to be ready to change yeah regarding smoking and things we we take that as yeah you know as standard really yeah and it's true that you know change happens when people do feel able and ready to change. But what I strongly believe and what we've

been working, you know, with a sort of firm belief in at Henry is that there's things that we can do as helping professionals to build readiness for change, rather than saying, well, you wait over there and come back when you're ready, because it's not easy for any of us to get unstuck and to find that sort of will and confidence to be able to make changes. I mean, one of the things I know through my own life is that we tend to keep on going with habits, even when they're uncomfortable and unhelpful. There's something about them, you know, the momentum and the energy of familiarity that can keep us very stuck. So what we're doing at Henry, when we're working with a group or when we're working with individual parents, because we offer the program either on a group basis or an individual basis,

for the program, either on a group basis or an individual basis, is we're really creating the conditions for change. So let me think about how to describe those. We start with the relationship and really building a relationship with parents that's about listening to help to develop an understanding of the reality of their lives and where they are. Because if any service and support is going to be effective, it has to really be about starting where people are in their lives. Are you talking about the relationship between the healthcare professional and the parents? Yes, or a program facilitator, a Henry program facilitator and a group, a Henry program facilitator and an individual parent or a health practitioner and parents

that they're working with in their wider roles. One of my favorite watchwords is empathy before education that many of us were trained to to dispense advice and have been trained in this sort of expert model where we use our expertise to to advise and one of the things that i've learned in my in my work is that the thing I need to do first of all is to stop talking and listen and and really use empathy to communicate that understanding and respect for for the reality of people's lives and the very real challenges that families face in providing a healthy start for their children, particularly when they might be grappling with all sorts of other issues like housing or relationship breakdown or, you know, very long entrenched intergenerational lifestyle habits you know that that when we when we actually really get alongside people and listen it becomes clear why change is so hard and so that listening and

empathy is the starting point i think for engaging people and it's not it's not actually dissimilar, I would say, for any healthcare professional. Like, you know, I've been a practicing doctor for, I don't know, 18 and a half years now. And I think I learned early on that actually, it's not about how much you know, it's not about the education. The most important thing is, can you connect with that person in front of you? That's the starting point. Once you can connect with them person in front of you that's the starting point once you can connect with them then everything feeds you know on the back of that and it sounds like you in many ways it's common sense isn't it in many ways it is it's just not that common unfortunately these days but I love that phrase empathy before education because I you know it really strikes me that the approach you and Henry are taking it really shares this inherent belief that I have that actually every person every family

every parent is trying to be as healthy as they can based on their lifestyle their life pressures their situation I don't think anyone is trying to put on weight and, you know, sit in front of the television and not be active. I think that's just the way that they've ended up. And it sounds like you also have this core belief that actually, if we can connect with people on a human level, they actually all want the same things. And then maybe we can facilitate that for them. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I mean, you know, we know that the vast, vast majority of parents

want to give their children the best start in life. But for many families, knowing what best is or how to achieve it is the difficult bit. So I think, you know, that relationship based on empathy, listening, trust, understanding is the starting point to opening the door to being able to help. It's sort of, you know, it's the prerequisite for everything that comes after. But I think when we're thinking about change, one of the key ingredients is confidence. And so we talk about a strengths-based approach, starting with what's going well.

And that can be quite surprising for parents who come on our program, you know, because some think, oh, it's going to be like going back to school or, you know, I'm going to be told everything I'm doing wrong. And the relief on people's faces at the end of the first session, when they, what they've experienced in that first session is understanding and empathy for some of the things they're struggling with. They've also experienced this enormous relief of hearing other parents in the room share some of the same struggles and challenges. So that relief of it's not just me.

But what they also leave with is a sense parents to to to think about all of the things that they're doing already to get their children off to a healthy starting life and all of the things that they're already doing to lead a healthy family lifestyle and provide that healthy home environment and then it's about building on those strengths that this, you know, that rather than focusing on the problems and, you know, what's not happening, let's start with the strengths, because those are the bright spots. Those, those, those are the causes that, you know, those are the things that give families optimism, hope, determination, confidence to think about changing things.

And it makes them feel good right if your parents if a parent's going to this and they're feeling apprehensive and actually the first thing they hear about is what a great job they're doing in in a b and c areas that's a nice feeling and it's absolutely it probably means they're much more likely to now positively engage in anything else you know all those areas maybe you know that they're not doing as well in maybe they're much more open to hear some possible strategies to tackle them yeah um i i was reading um an article about amsterdam a couple of hours ago before you you came up today because i think this was about a year ago when we heard that amsterdam seems to be a city which is making a real impact in childhood obesity and there was something I read about

saying, you know, I think one of the child health nurses there was saying, you know, whenever we, we start with a family, it's not necessarily about us telling them what to do. The first thing we've got to do is listen. And sometimes we will ask them, where do you think you're going wrong? And she says, often they can tell us. and it wouldn't surprise me if there are similarities between your approaches have you studied the amsterdam approach do you know what they're doing there particularly in these areas where they're bringing obesity down yeah yeah yes i mean i i think there's some brilliant work happening in amsterdam and we have worked with them they invited us to go over a couple of years ago now 18 months ago and train their

their child health service in the henry approach to working with parents so has the henry approach been used so it's been utilized in amsterdam as well as part of what they're doing it has when we we trained a fairly small cohort but they they were really inspired by the training. In fact, we had some amazing feedback. One of the youth health, they call it the youth health service in Amsterdam, people said at the end of the two-day training that we delivered, she said, I've been on many training courses. And she said, I always feel like I, and she patted her back, she said, I leave with a few more tools in my kit bag. But she said, after this training, I've changed here.

And she was sort of tapping her, tapping her heart and everybody was tapping their chest. And what they were saying was that, you know, what they'd gained from the Henry training was that they had thought about parents' experiences in a way that they hadn't. They had thought about parents' experiences in a way that they hadn't. And I think that that's where the power of what we're doing can be transformative. I mean, I think there's so much brilliant work happening at Amsterdam and we maintain contact with them. And I think that what they're doing, which is really inspiration, is really taking taking this whole city approach which includes the environment it includes schools it includes families and it's really exciting i certainly want to come on that a little bit later um one thing that again struck me when i when i first read about your work because for one is i i'm sort of very interested in childhood obesity i i sort of talk about it in the media quite regularly i write about it.

I wasn't familiar with the work, you know, that Henry was doing. I hadn't come across it. So it was amazing to see it. But there was a few things that really struck me when I read the article. And that was that you seem to be taking a very much holistic approach, a very rounded approach. It wasn't just one thing. It was several things because we know obesity is incredibly complex. It gets super simplified in the media sometimes, but it is incredibly complex. And I noticed that you were addressing, you know, with parents, things like,

you know, regular meal times, screen time before beds. You were talking, you know, really about parenting style in many ways. And i guess you touched on this right at the start of our conversation that these are delicate areas parenting obesity these are for some people they're no-go areas you know a lot of people won't go there a lot of healthcare professionals find it hard to go there because for fear of upsetting a parent or or you know or making them feel ashamed in any way. So you, with the Henry approach, have gone there. You go into parenting. What is it about, obviously, I'm getting it's a very human approach, but why is it, do you think, that the approach you're taking, you know, that

the parents aren't getting their backs up, that they are actually letting their guard down and listening and implementing? Because I've read some of the case studies that you've sent. And these are mums, you know, and families who feel that this has revolutionized the way that they parent, given them confidence, given them a way that you can't change everything in their lives, but you've given them some sort of routine and structure. And one of the case studies was talking about, you know, regular mealtimes and screen time before bed. And I was thinking, this is fantastic that you had taken this rounded approach. Yeah, absolutely. Recognizing that a healthy lifestyle or, you know, preventing obesity doesn't start magically with what children eat and how active they are. Those are sort of the end products.

And so we're thinking about the reality of family life. what I've already been saying about really building that relationship based on trust, respect and recognizing people's strengths, that enables us then to have, you know it's a bit like a water for you know what what do you what what sort of um what what does the flow look like what's the starting point i mean i'm a parent myself um my my daughters are grown now but i know from personal experience that family life with young children is pretty full on and it challenges you know almost well I think every parent I've spoken to I remember speaking to a director of education once who came on one of my one of our trainings and he said I like to think I'm a relatively competent person running a multi-million pound department but it counts for nothing when it comes to getting my seven-year-old to bed at night so there's something that's a great leveler about parenting. So recognizing that

parenting young children, you know, is a challenge that most of us are grappling with. And then when you add in the additional challenges for parents living in poverty or challenging circumstances, we need to start with parental well-being because none of us are able to do our best when we're stressed out, exhausted, running on empty. I remember one parent saying to me, you know, it's as much as I can do to get myself in and out of the bath each day, let alone think about changing anything. So very often helping parents think about their own needs and how they can reduce stress, recharge their batteries, which, you know, very often comes down to thinking about things that they enjoy doing and making time to do those is the starting point for for family change and we use the the five ways to well-being which are which um you're

familiar with can you elaborate for the listeners yeah so um you know these are used by by different um uh health care professionals they were developed by the New Economics Foundation. When they talk to people about what contributes to your happiness and well-being, people came up with five consistent themes. So connect. And so that's about, you know, what we get from each other and feeling emotionally supported. Being active. Paying attention. So, so you know that's about all of that mindful stuff about being in the present um you know not going for a walk with the thoughts whizzing around our head but noticing our surroundings looking at the trees um so that's the third one the fourth one is about giving you know that one of the things that builds our own sense of purpose and well-being is when we feel we're making a positive contribution to to to others lives.

And then lastly, learn, you know, just taking on new skills, information, knowledge, challenges that that, you know, that that sort of revs us up keeps us interested in life i love it i mean i hadn't heard about those five factors in this context but it was just fascinating for me hearing them because i've literally i've in my first two books um i've i've really covered those five factors in detail across the both books. Just taking a quick break in today's conversation to give a shout out to the sponsors of today's show. Athletic Greens continue their support of my podcast. To be really clear, I absolutely prefer that people get all of their nutrition from foods. But for some of us, this is not always possible. Athletic Greens is one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that I've come across and contains vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, and digestive

enzymes. So if you are looking to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend it. For listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you will be able to access a special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around £70 with your first order. You can check it out at athleticgreens.com forward slash live more. It is fascinating for me that the approach that you seem to be talking about is you know you're not focusing on obesity you're focusing on creating health in families and in families where excess weight is an issue it seems as though that's

going to start falling away as a side effect of creating health absolutely and i love it really deeply resonates with me because that's the approach i've taken with all the work i do in the media and with my first two books is very much this is how you create the conditions for good health it's not a book for or an approach for for type two diabetes or for obesity or for migraines or for whatever it's but actually if you if you follow those principles you'll often find that those things will start to get better and I think that's the part about your approach that really you know that really sort of does work for me and in in terms of how I feel about it it just feels as though it's it really gets the root cause

of these problems rather than saying oh you're overweight you need to eat less calories we need to get you into a gym class um and as you say if if printing more leaflets was going to solve this problem you know given the amount of leaflets that you get in any gp practice now or any you know we would have solved this a long time ago um and yes you would have been out of job i'm sure you'd be delighted to be out of a job if that meant the childhood obesity problem was solved absolutely yeah yeah um yes so i absolutely i think you couldn't put it better it is about creating healthy families and that is what will enable children to flourish so um so thinking about those conditions that we're creating, parents who've got the energy, the resources to cope well with family life is the starting point. The next sort of ingredient,

if you like, is that parents have the skills and the strategies to establish certain lifestyle habits routines attitudes to eating activity because there's a big difference for parents between knowing that it's not great for children to be slouched in front of the television all day, but actually having the, you know, the parenting strategies to stay appropriately in charge as an adult and get their children involved in other activities. And because we're about, you know, long-term change, if we imagine what will happen that, you know, if every time a parent says, you know, switch off the television or no, you can't have a chocolate bar or whatever it is that, you know, there's a, you know, a huge argument, family life becomes a battleground. parents are likely to just sort of give up and and you know be more likely more of the time to take the path of least resistance so it is about really i mean what we what we what we're doing in the henry program is helping parents think about some really um simple but effective

skills for daily life with young children. So how can we engage cooperation? We've got lots of different sort of ideas around that. Parents bring their own as well, because the whole culture of the programme is about parents sharing ideas with each other. But to give you a couple of examples, one of the, I suppose, I think there's probably two things that most families would say, it's really helped, it's really helped turn things around. And those are family rewards and guided choices. So family rewards, a lot of us have these sort of concept of reward systems, which is all about giving children a sticker for doing something that their parent wants them to do. But the Henry family reward systems are very different. They're cooperative. They involve the whole family. So it's a way of building a culture within the family of being able to thank appreciate reward but without that sort of competition and sort of pressure to do something that the parents want children to do so a family might decide that i mean we're talking about young children here so they might decide that their family reward system

for the next few days is to build a a tower of wooden bricks. And each time that somebody is happy about something that somebody else has done and wants to thank them, they'll say, please put a brick on our tower. So adults can say that to children, you know, thank you for coming to the table to eat when I asked you to. Or adults can say it to each other. So parents model to their children and thank each other, you know, thank you for washing up when I was tired. Or adults can say it to each other. So parents model to their children and thank each other, you know, thank you for washing up when I was tired. Or children can say it to their brothers and sisters or to their parents. And so it involves the whole family and the whole family are building the reward together. And what does that do?

And what does that do? It's much more likely to help parents engage their children's cooperation when they ask them to do something. And it also gives parents a way of praising. And actually praise can be something very difficult for parents, particularly if they weren't praised themselves as a child. Many parents struggle to find the words. And so, you know, they might say good boy or good girl, which, you know, is probably slightly more enjoyable than naughty girl or naughty boy, but it doesn't give the child a lot of information. The thing with these family rewards is that the parent is is provided with a framework for praising and thanking but in a very descriptive way thank you for coming to the table so quickly when i asked you so the child knows exactly what they've done that was helpful and they've they've had the treat of putting a block on the towel. I mean, this is a brilliant example.

I mean, you know, I'm now asking for a friend. No, I'm asking for myself. I'm thinking this is a great idea. And so wooden, you know, making a tower of blocks. Are there any other sort of things that you found work for people apart from a tower of blocks? I think the nice thing is that families come up with their own ideas. It could be Lego, it could be anything.

Absolutely. It could be colouring in a picture together. So the picture maybe lives somewhere and then when someone does something good, they can go and colour a part of it. Absolutely. And then over time you build up on the whole thing and maybe every few weeks gets coloured in. Yeah. And what does that symbolise? So it's about the family working together and building.

So it's about the family working together and building. It's building an atmosphere in the house, which is about cooperation, enjoyment, fun, togetherness. And it's that positive atmosphere is a big part of what makes a happy family. And I think a lot of parents who come on our program say, oh, I came along because I was worried about my child's eating. But I thought Henry was about healthy eating but you know we're a healthy happy family now you

know it's not it's changed my life hasn't just sort of it's not just about what we eat. I've got to say for me personally as you know I'm doing this conversation with you as a doctor whose goal is to try and empower as many people as possible to live you know to feel better so they can get more out of their lives but like with all things when it comes to kids you know you can't you can't stop switching into your life as a dad as a parent i'm thinking wow i'd love to do some of these classes and actually learn some of these skills and i can then apply because it goes back to what you're saying at the start. It's not about obesity, it's about creating healthy family environments. And then the things that are a result of unhealthy family environments will start to get better, whether that be obesity or anything else. I think you touched on something really important when you gave that example, which was

if a parent, for example, has not been praised much as a child, that they may struggle to give praise to their child. And then that whole cycle can continue. And we know that there is this transgenerational stress that gets passed through lifestyle habits. We know that for many reasons, this is very complex, but we know that obesity, for example, can run in families and not necessarily for the reasons that we might think in terms of oh you have a genetic predisposition to now carrying excess weight it may be to do with behaviors and cultural habits um is that's i mean this approach this example you've given about families working together is a great way of showing how you know you can you can override that in some ways by creating a new environment and a new family dynamic.

Are you seeing this work across different socioeconomic groups, different cultures as well? I'm sure in Leeds, for example, your programme must be targeting lots of different communities from different backgrounds. Yeah, absolutely. different communities from different backgrounds yeah absolutely i mean i think that's the you know that's the that's something that is you know really hopeful and inspiring about about this because we're helping families find their own solutions and you know think about the ideas that will work for them it does it does translate across cultures, across ethnic backgrounds.

And because Henry is embedded in the more deprived areas of the country, the vast majority are very ethnically diverse. And so a high percentage of the families that go through the program are from a minority ethnic background. We've also been delivering Henry in Israel actually and in both Jewish communities and Arab communities and what we weren't sure you know it was it was the first time that we had delivered the program outside the UK context. And we thought that it would translate because we know from the diversity of parents that we're working with in the UK that it was able to sort of

straddle different cultures. But there's, you know, the experience in Israel has been amazing. And, you know, it has really worked in both those Arab and Jewish communities. That's incredible to hear. And I guess if you think about it, it's not that surprising because the rules of, you know, the rules of human health are universal. They're the same everywhere. universal they're the same everywhere but i guess the way that henry personalized the approach to that family means that it actually is universally applicable because you're not from what i can tell you're not enforcing a strict set of rules and guidelines on everyone in which case you can come up against cultural barriers um but if you are personalizing it and again i love that empathy

before education people are going to be open to these sort of principles. And so are these different countries approaching Henry? Are they hearing the results and saying, hey, look, come and help us? Yeah. So, yes, it was the Ministry of Health in Israel that wanted to adopt Henry. And we are getting approaches from other parts of the world as well. And it's really exciting. I think that, you know, it's what you say, you know, this is about being human. And it's about what do children need? And, you know, children flourish when their parents are able to provide those warm, responsive, loving parent parent-child relationships but when they're also

able to stay appropriately in charge as adults and you know you touched on parenting styles earlier and and that that's that's the sort of broad aim that um that we have have in Henry is to help parents manage to hold that balance between responsive and appropriately in charge more of the time. I mean, none of us can, you know, do it all of the time. There are times when, but it's about where we know what are we aiming for as parents and, and what will enable us to do it. So I touched on guided choices earlier, which is a really good practical example of that balance between responsive to children's needs, feelings, opinions, but being appropriately in charge. So we're looking at parents giving children what we call a guided choice, a choice of two healthy options you know do you want carrot or you know or broccoli um

so and why does that work is it because children like to feel a bit empowered well not just children absolutely we've got some saying what's happening absolutely none of us like to be told what to do we all like to feel like we've got some control but if we give children too much choice you know what do you want to eat um you know that's unlikely probably to to to result in a healthy balanced meal what's underpinned this approach has it been have you had psychologists working with you i mean these seem really progressive approaches that you guys are taking and it's as i say it's so excites me to hear about this and i just wonder where that ethos

has come from because it doesn't appear to be the standard um so these are these are all elements i mean there it is based on the work of psychologists so parenting styles was um that whole concept was developed by psychologists in the back in the 1970s diana baum, Macbeth and Martin did some more work on them in the 80s. So what the Henry Programme is doing is sort of integrating these insights from psychology, from behaviour change, from attachment theory, if we're talking about those sort of warm, responsive parent-child relationships but then translating that theory into practical family

life and I mentioned Mary Rudolph as who was one of Henry's co-founders professor of child health she worked with Candida Hunt who was my predecessor as as the director of henry whose background was like mine in parenting support training behavior change i think it's those two things coming together you know the clinical the academic research about the risk and protective factors for child obesity but then being able to turn those into a practical intervention that engages parents, builds their confidence, their motivation, and creates those conditions for change. It is about translating knowledge into practice. I think that's what we're aiming to do. Do you think the role for Henry is in some way filling a gap that, you know, as we,

society has changed a lot over the last 30, 40 years. Yes, the food environment has changed dramatically, but also the way we're living. lots of people move away now from where they've grown up. They are living independent lives. They might be bringing up kids without any support around them and maybe two parents are working. So you've got these very stressful lives without support. And therefore the things that, you know, I guess I'm just hypothesizing, could this be part of the success is that some of these um parenting styles were probably you know wisdom that was passed on from generation to generation when people live nearby and you might have your parents looking after the child while you went out to work you know as that sort of being eroded out of society as we are moving away and you know things like

loneliness are on the rise it it seems to me that could Henry in some way just be almost filling that gap some way and providing that education for some of the families that they would have potentially otherwise got through their culture? Yeah, I mean, I do think that a lot of parents of young children can feel very isolated and it's what parents who come on the programme

often talk about. And it's a huge who come on the program often talk about and it's it's a huge stress i think for for you know being an adult with young children and not feeling that sense of social support so i think one of the things that one of the biggest things that parents get from going through a program like henry is contact with other parents and the chance to hear from one another and know you know as i was saying earlier know that other people have the same issues um challenges and then do they do you encourage contacts for that for that contact to stay as they're all trying to make their families healthier yeah do they help each other yes i think that i mean a lot stay in contact and

in some areas of the country we're training um know, we offer parents who've done the program the chance to train as a Henry volunteer, we call them parent champions, who are then, you know, living and working in those local communities, and encouraging parents to keep the positive changes going, as well as, sort of outreach to parents who haven't yet been part of the programme. So I think it is about family change, but it's also thinking about those communities that families grow up in. And the more that we can embed support um and momentum for change so you know whether it's families getting together for a play afternoon in the local park or a fruit and veg tasting session or a cooking program so you know in bradford um we've we have these parent champions and we've developed a cooking program because you were saying, well, we really like what we've learned from Henry, but we'd like to do more about cooking.

And so we can respond to those different needs. My next question was actually going to be, do cooking classes form any part of this? But I guess you've answered that in terms of you respond to what the needs are and then you provide what's necessary rather than giving this top-down approach it's very much bottom-up yeah um that's fascinating yeah and i think that you know that so one of the things that we're just doing at the moment is is um is extending our age range so upwards and downwards so we we have a um our early years program is called healthy families right from the start, but we've just been piloting a program for expectant parents in pregnancy called Healthy Families in the Making, which is very much helping those parents to be thinking about, you know, what home environment, what family lifestyle do we want our baby to be born into?

So it's sort of nest building on a lifestyle you're always each time you're going more to the root of the root of the roots of the problem in the sense that yeah if you start off in you know prenatally and you know or in pregnancy and creating those conditions in those environments i guess you have to do less remedial work when the child's three four five years old because a lot of it was already done. And it's, it is incredible. How long do you think it's taken for you to make, and I appreciate you're saying you're just one part of many other organizations who were trying to do good work in Leeds. Do we, do we have a sense yet of how many years it has taken to start getting this downward trend in obesity in leeds for example so it's not a quick fix is it it isn't a quick fix um and it

particularly isn't a quick fix because if you're going to make a difference at population level you've got to embed this kind of support at scale as well. I mean, what doesn't really work? I mean, it will help individual families, but it won't create population level change if you sort of helicopter in and deliver a few programs for a while and then disappear. So it is about having that real strategic vision, which I think, you know, that there are various, you know, really inspiring places across the UK where public health commissions are taking this real strategic vision and Leeds are a shining example of that, of long-term, you know, we want to invest in the early years and we're going to keep going and we're going to do it citywide

by training the workforce, by running programs in children's centers. So how quickly, I mean, the Oxford University study covered six years and rates were dropping during that time. We want to understand more about the factors in Leeds that led to that change and what was different about Leeds. I mean, we know that Henry's been a big part of their child healthy weight strategy. But I think in terms of applying the wider learning nationally, we're really keen to initiate a study that will really get underneath the data and do an analysis of, you know, what was Leeds doing and how did that compare with what was happening in those comparator cities. And I would imagine that having got such incredible, you know, results that got the

media's attention, that then gets more eyes on the problem and more people then probably want to study it and go, well, let's find out more more so i guess it's almost like the tip of the iceberg by actually showing that you can make a difference with childhood obesity you're just opening up possibilities for lots of people to replicate it to collaborate to research even further which i think is incredibly exciting and i think what it does is it gives us all hope that it is possible because you you started wrong saying, you know, that the headlines around child obesity are always so depressing and bleak. They've gone up again, you know, and one in 10 children in this country are obese at age five. And, you know, that's just absolutely stacking the odds against them. the odds against them. You know, Public Health England did some longitudinal research and only one child in 20 who starts school obese will be a healthy weight when they leave primary school. So

if they're obese when they start school, the chances of them regaining a healthy weight are so slim. And I think what the Leeds results show all of us is that it is possible yeah and let's really you know learn about what does make a difference whether it's you know keeping those children centers open so there's a place to engage and support families or um you know investing in the kind of program that henry's offering which is about that holistic behavior change focused um support for parents you know let's really focus on what works um having had some hope that it's possible yeah i think that as you say that is the main thing that i got from it that there's hope and there's a possibility that we can do something here um childhood obesity rates are coming down in leeds and the areas that were studied um are

you seeing adult rates coming down or the in the parents of those children or those the parents who you're helping i don't know if this has been studied or or been measured but it's intriguing to me that if those parents are learning some skills and strategies to help create those environments at home they're going to change aspects of their diet and their lifestyle if the kids weight is dropping i would imagine that some of the parents might be as well yeah i mean we've got lots and lots of anecdotal evidence because um i mean one thing that we haven't really touched on is parents as role models um and that you know children learn you know the whole of social learning theory is

that children learn from the important adults around them and so henry we are focusing on this whole family um lifestyle and you mentioned earlier know, those eating and activity habits about sitting down to eat meals together, thinking about portion sizes, getting more active together, having, you know, having those sort of having that sort of approach of balance to whether it's what you're eating or how you're spending the day. balance to whether it's what you're eating or what how you're spending the day um and yes what parents are saying is that it's changed it's changed them so it's it's not uncommon for parents say you know i've gone down three dress sizes and also what's really interesting is that the practitioners who come on the training say the same thing, that they haven't just changed the way that they're working with parents. They've also made changes in their own lifestyle. And that, you know, many of the practitioners who've done the Henry training are saying, yeah, we've, you know, we've lost weight. And that's really important as well, because they're role models. And, you know,

we know that because NHS professionals are, you know, just a subset of the population that practitioners who come to train with Henry to deliver the program, if they are struggling with their own weight and lifestyle, they say, you know, I'm not sure that I'm the right person to be doing this. And we always say, you are if you're making changes, because that's, you know, that's a brilliant role model. You know, if you're struggling with your weight or you're struggling to eat healthily or you're struggling to to be active but you're finding ways of doing that then that is very confidence inspiring for the parents and it's very normalizing as well it's not you know i'm okay and you've got the problem you know we are all in this together because we're all people um but yes i think that change in all ways, you know,

starts with the parents and that if children are going to learn healthy attitudes and habits around eating and activity, they're going to learn those from their parents as well as from, you know, the other significant people. So we're working with childcare providers, you know, what happens in daycare and in child minders homes because those are all of the places where these enduring lifelong attitudes and habits and routines are sort of imprinted really you know this this issue of parents as role models is something that i mentioned a few times i've written about a a few times, that one thing I've learned as a parent, and you know, my kids are now nine and six. So you know, I've got nine years experience

as a parent, I'm learning new things every day. I'm just like everyone else trying to do my best. I don't know if I am or not. So I'm certainly doing the best I can. And I've really seen time and time again, that kids don't really do what you tell them to do. They do what they see you doing. It seems to be your actions seem to influence them more than anything you can say. Certainly that's been my impression as a parent. And often when I talk to parents in my practice as a GP, I'll often say, you know, if you're trying to encourage your child to eat more healthily,

but you're sitting on the sofa and having a packet of crisps and telling them they can't it's just not going to resonate with them it's going to you know you're going to have to try and i know it's difficult but you're going to have to try and model the behavior in front of your children that you want them to adopt and i think parents are receptive to hearing that once if you do it in a non-judgmental way um so so that i i think parents as role models is a really it's something that we all have to take very seriously i think um i love your anecdotes as well that the the the people going on your courses are saying

wow i'm actually improving my own health and well-being by learning even though they're doing it to train others and we find that as well i with it with a couple of colleagues run a course called prescribing lifestyle medicine it's um one of the first courses accredited by the world college of gps and we teach a new framework for doctors i think we trained over a thousand now so far in the last year and a half on how you use lifestyle as medicine really for your patients effectively how do you personalize it to the individual? And one of the, yes, we're doing it to help patients around the country, but it's really nice when a lot of the doctors

feed back to us, oh, I didn't know that. I've actually started doing that with myself and my family and I'm feeling better and I'm losing weight or I'm sleeping better. And I think you really cover that so beautifully that it's not about us and them. We are them. We're all patients. We're all struggling with this modern health crisis. And it strikes me that what you're

doing, I mean, you've clearly said it, it's not really an obesity strategy. It's a wellbeing strategy. But it seems to be more than that. It seems to be, in some ways, I think if all of us have access to Henry, then family well-being, family illness, family obesity, happiness would all start to improve as a consequence. You know, that's me getting a little bit overly excited and just translating it five, 10 years down the line. But it could do, couldn't it really? But it could do, couldn't it really? Well, I mean, I would say yes, because what we're talking about is enabling a healthy start. Yeah. And that, you know, that sets children off on, you know, the best trajectory possible for the rest of their lives. in those early years is is just so enduring but we can't we can't make a difference without really creating those confident parents those healthy happy families and it has to be enjoyable you know families won't keep doing it if it's blooming hard work they might keep it up for a short while

and then they'll slip back. And they, you know, families say, we don't, we really don't want to. And I think the thing that, you know, that I really believe helps them keep going is because family life isn't just healthier, it's happier. They're enjoying spending time with their children. They're feeling better about themselves. And that, you know know it's a virtuous circle it generates energy and more change and with that bit of you know just it it it um it triggered a thought for me when you were saying about that you know

you know children learn from what they see rather than from what they hear. And there's a lot of unconscious behavior and messaging that goes on in a family around which foods are desirable and what's a treat in terms of both, you know, what you eat and how you spend your time. And so we're also thinking about really breaking those emotional associations between food and well-being, whether it's using food as a reward or a comfort. Do you think it's problematic to's because of the kind of food that's used you know I mean you don't hear parents saying oh you know you've been so helpful I'm going to get you a carrot to eat on the way home it just isn't what is associated it's not it's um so because it's the high fat high sugar it's the it's the the ice creams, the crisps that are used as treats and rewards and comfort, then, you know, we're really encouraging parents to find other ways. I mean, parents want to make their children happy. You know, we all get a warm glow seeing our children enjoy doing something.

That's why your wooden block is such a lovely strategy because kids would get a lot of enjoyment out of that thinking, oh, you know, I came to the table when I was asked and you get to put another block on it. You know, that is a reward. Yeah. But it's a different kind of reward, isn't it?

It's a different kind of reward. And it's also, I mean, the other bit that I think is really important to, you know, just to sort of acknowledge is that this isn't about being incredibly evangelical and say, you know, you're never going to have chocolate in the house. You're never going to, you know, enjoy a cake together. Moderation. Um, but it's, it's, so it's about having those things sometimes, but not giving them that emotional, um, association of treat, special pleasure. Which will stay with them as a teenager, as a young adult and beyond.

Yeah. Um, and that's really, you know, that's a really hard one to break because of those environmental messages. It's not just what happens in the family. I wanted to move on to that because just just to finish off our conversation a lot of what i'm hearing and what i've read is that you you spend time with families you you really try and listen understand help provide some personalized strategies for them particularly in terms of parenting style at home but one of the

big problems is that we're living in a very obesogenic environment and so you know how does henry tackle you know you give these strategies but then they're going out into a world where sometimes making those decisions can be very very difficult um on the podcast a few weeks ago i spoke to dan buetner who's done a lot of research on the blue zones these five areas around the world where people have lived to, you know, very, you know, to a ripe old age, but in very good health. And he talks a lot about the power of the environment. The environment makes it easy for healthy choices. And we talked on schools a little bit. And he said, actually, that one bit of research he'd come across showed that actually, if a school stops snacking, in the class, it sort of makes it real that you can't eat in the classroom or the corridor bmi drops by about 11

which i found remarkable to hear that and you can see why because you know if kids are allowed to eat in the classroom just when they're walking between classes that's going to be added to quite a lot of food in the day but if that's just it's not acceptable environmentally it automatically reduces how much people eat so I guess what I'm trying to ask is is any part of Henry's approach at the moment or is that something you're going to move into how do you make the environment around these families a little bit easier? Absolutely I mean I think you know obesity is what what's often referred to as a wicked issue you know there is no one solution and henry certainly isn't um you know a magic bullet in that way we are one part um of making a difference we are very much part of that um that national conversation and um

seeking to influence policy around things like um labelling, which could be so much clearer. You know, families always, always telling us, you know, just how hard it is to know what's in food. And so, you know, we're part of campaigning. We work as part of the Obesity Health Alliance. um and we're part of campaigning for you know clear food labeling um ending marketing of junk food to children which makes it so much harder for parents to stay appropriately in charge when their children are desperate to have what they've advertised seen advertised on television or yeah um thinking about you know i mean food reformulation that um you know there is so much hidden sugar in in in foods and one of the things that you know parents often think that they're giving their children as a healthy lunch is those little pots of yogurt which have got huge amounts of of sugar in but

because they've got fruit and yogurt on the front they think that yeah you know that's a healthy lunch and when they hear how many spoons of sugar are in those you know they're really shocked so definitely food reformulation around you know and i think i mean we learn to adapt to the tastes around us. And I think that's particularly true of sugar. So when processed food, you know, has got so much hidden sugar in it, we all become used to the sweeter taste. Yeah. And that's one of the things, you know, thinking, I mean,

thinking about, you know, helping children develop healthy food preferences is that our tastes evolve on the basis of what's familiar. we also do regrettably have a sort of inbuilt preference for sweet foods and the only way to to move beyond that is to help children get used to a wide range of savoury tastes and so if even savoury foods have got all of this hidden sugar in it's so much harder for children then to enjoy fresh vegetables and food that's been made at home that hasn't been made palatable which is what the food industry used to justify all the salt and sugar and fat that's in that's in those ready meals so yeah i think all of that makes a huge difference and i think you know what's inspiring about about Amsterdam is that as a city, they are working to make a healthy choice, the easy choice. And, you know, that is definitely what, you know, we're working towards with other organisations. and Henry are doing here in the UK and also helping others around the world is absolutely incredible. It does give that rare glimpse of optimism and hope that we can, you know, do something about this childhood obesity epidemic that is causing so many problems

here and around the world. So I just, I really want to thank you for taking the time to actually do this work and be involved with arguably the most important issue facing us. There's a lot to be optimistic about for people listening. Have you got, can you leave them with any top tips? There's lots of parents listening, there's lots of healthcare professionals listening. If they want to make a difference with childhood obesity, they want to make a difference with, you know, family health, improving family health. Have you got any top tips for them at all? you know, family health, improving family health. Have you got any top tips for them at all? Going back to what I talked about earlier, what helps us change? Think about the bright spots,

what's going well and build on that. So, you know, think about what you enjoy eating, you know, what's the favourite family meal? And then, you know, perhaps have a look at the eat well guide that shows shows what a healthy balanced meal looks like have a look at that meal you know what you know what what's already really healthy about it um and then think about well what's a small change that you could you could make to make that healthier so for if it's a spaghetti bolognese, you know, it's got the carbs in it, it's got the meat for protein or the soya alternative. Could you make it a bit healthier's already going well and thinking about you know what you enjoy doing as a family and what works for you so which is why i would say always start with a favorite family meal and think about you know how how could we just make a few tweaks here and there to make that more healthy because that's what we enjoy eating. So that's what's going to work

for your family. And, you know, there's lots of tips and hints on the Henry website, including recipes and ideas for getting healthier as a family. Well, that's brilliant. And we will certainly link to that in the show notes for this episode, which is going to be drchastity.com forward slash Henry. Everything that Kim and I spoke about today is going to be drchastity.com forward slash Henry. Everything that Kim and I spoke about today is going to be there. We're going to have links. Some of the studies you mentioned, I'll try and find the references for those. And so people can link to them and read them. And in fact, the resources you sent me to read before this were incredible, actually. I don't know if any of them are available on the web for people to read, but I'd love to share that.

There's lots of healthcare professionals who listen to this podcast. And actually for those healthcare professionals, if any of them feel inspired and think you know what i'm trying to help with childhood obesity or i'm trying to help with family and children's health in my area but i need support is there a way that they can get involved with henry yeah i mean we we are always really keen to hear from areas um about you know inviting us in to work in partnership So do get in touch, info at henry.org.uk. And we'd love to have a conversation with you about, you know, how we can work together. Well, fantastic. I think you will be getting some emails after this podcast. I certainly hope so.

Kim, keep up the fantastic work that you and Henry are doing. And maybe I can get you on at some point in the future to see where we're up to in a couple of years. That would be wonderful thank you it's been a pleasure talking to you. That concludes today's bonus episode of the Feel Better Live More podcast. What do you think of what Henry has done? Is it not absolutely incredible and was there anything that you can take from that conversation and apply it into your own life? I love Kim's suggestions to start by building on what you are already doing well. I really think that one of the keys to Henry's success is their focus on compassion and empathy. Something that I think is missing in a lot of the dialogue around health these days.

If you want more information on Henry, you can visit the show notes page for this episode of the podcast, which is drchatterjee.com forward slash Henry. That's H-E-N-R-Y. Please do let myself and Henry know what you thought of today's episode on social media. It would really help to raise awareness of Henry's work if we can talk about this conversation. You can get in touch with Kim Roberts, the CEO of Henry, at the official social media handles of the charity Henry. They are at henry.healthyfamilies on Instagram and Facebook, and they are very active on Twitter at Henry Healthy. Please do get in touch and particularly on Twitter,

use the hashtag FBLM when you can so that we can easily find your comments. Now look, Henry's approach deeply resonates with me as it is the exact same approach that I take with my patients. A 360 degree approach to look at all of the different factors that influence our health rather than simply focusing on one of them. You can read more about my overarching philosophy on health in my first book, The Four Pillar Plan, which has been a number one international bestseller all over the world. It is available in the USA and Canada with a different title, How to Make Disease Disappear. And you can pick it up in

all the usual places in paperback, ebook, or as an audio book, which I am narrating. If you enjoy my weekly podcasts, please do consider supporting them by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, whichever platform you listen to podcasts on. You can also help me spread the word by taking a screenshot right now and sharing with your friends and family on your social media channels, or you could do it the good old fashioned way and simply tell your friends and family about the show. If you know someone who you think this episode is especially applicable for, if you know a teacher, if you know families who are struggling with childhood obesity, please do let them know about this show and in particular this episode. I really think what

Henry are doing is important and I would love to get their insights and information out to as many people as possible. The support is very much appreciated. A big thank you to Richard Hughes for editing and Vedanta Chatterjee for producing this week's podcast. That is it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure you have pressed subscribe and I'll be back in one week's time with my latest episode. Remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time Thank you.