Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - #96 How This Sporting Event Could Change Your Life with Michael Lemmel

Episode Date: February 5, 2020

Can a sporting event really change the world? It might sound crazy, but with the right ingredients, I think it can. My guest on this week’s podcast is Michael Lemmel, co-founder of Swimrun, a sporting experience that’s taken the world by storm. What began as a drunken bet between friends, to swim and run between islands off Sweden, evolved into an organised endurance event and now an eco-conscious, global phenomenon, attracting people of all ages and abilities. You run in your wetsuit, swim in your shoes and complete a series of short swims and trail runs, all with a partner. I did my first Swimrun in Devon last summer, and myself and my nine-year-old son are now total converts. Michael and I chatted just before our third event, in Malta, and I was keen to find out why he thinks it’s such a transformative experience. But this week’s episode is definitely not just for outdoor sports enthusiasts – it’s about the power of nature, the joy of coming together with others. It’s about stepping outside of your comfort zone, becoming a better person – and, yes, making the world a better place.  Show notes available at https://drchatterjee.com/96 Follow me on instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Follow me on facebook.com/DrChatterjee/ Follow me on twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When I go into the water, I feel how my body becomes part of something bigger, because we're all electric pulses, and we're all beating hearts. And for me, the beating hearts, we all sort of connect in the vibrations in the ocean. And every being in the water is connected through these electrical pulses. We don't feel them, but we all are. Yeah. And when I think of that, when I go in the water, it's the most profound thing is going in the water and just feeling that connection.

Hi, my name is Rangan Chastji, GP, television presenter, and author of the best-selling books, The Stress Solution and The Four Pillar Plan. I believe that all of us have the ability to feel better than we currently do, but getting healthy has become far too complicated. With this podcast, I aim to simplify it. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most interesting and exciting people both within as well as outside the health space to hopefully inspire you as well as empower you with simple tips that you can put into practice immediately to transform the way that you feel. I believe that when we are healthier we are happier because when we feel better we live more. Hello and welcome back to episode 96 of my Feel Better Live More podcast.

My name is Rangan Chatterjee and I am your host. Now today's conversation is really something quite special. It's about an event called Swimrun that last year had a transformative effect on my life. You may have heard episode 73 of this podcast when I spoke with Ross Edgley immediately after I had completed my very first event. If you did, you will have heard me in a quite euphoric state and feeling on top of the world with that post-event high. If you have not heard that conversation yet, I really would encourage you to go back through my back catalogue and give it a listen. This week's guest on the podcast is Michael Lemel, co-founder of the

company Attilo, which is the origin of Swimrun. Now, Swimrun is a sporting experience quite unlike any other. It's a new sport that is all about teamwork, fun, passion, motivation, as well as respect for yourself, for others, and for the environment. What began as a drunken bet between friends to swim and run between the islands of Sweden has evolved into an organized endurance event, and now an eco-conscious global phenomenon attracting people of all ages and abilities. You run in your wetsuit, you swim in your shoes and complete a series of short swims and runs all with a partner. Now, I did my very first swim run in Devon last year

and myself and my nine-year-old son are now complete converts. This conversation took place back in November 2019 in a hotel room in Malta, just before my son and I were about to embark on our third Swimrun event together. And I explore with Michael why Swimrun is proving to be a transformative experience for so many people. You are absolutely going to want to stay tuned to the end of this conversation because I've teamed up with one of the podcast sponsors Vivo Barefoot to bring you some brilliant prizes that if this conversation connects with you you are probably going to want to begin with a chance of winning. Now this week's episode is definitely not just for outdoor sports enthusiasts. I think there is something in this conversation

for everyone, whether you are interested in an event like Swimrun or not, it's about the power of nature and the joy of coming together with others. It's about connection, pushing yourself, getting outside your comfort zone and so much more. I really think you are going to enjoy it. Now, before we get started, as always, I do need to give a quick shout out to some of the sponsors of today's show who are essential in order for me to continue putting out weekly episodes like this one. Vivo Barefoot, the minimalist footwear company, continue to support my podcast and as already mentioned, have put together some fantastic free prizes for my listeners that you can hear about at the end of the show today. I'm a huge fan of Viva Barefoot shoes and have been wearing them

for many years now, as have my entire family. They make really comfortable minimalist shoes that you can basically live your entire life in. They make shoes for all occasions, work, play, walking, going to the gym and so much more. And for listeners of this show, they continue to offer their fantastic discounts. If you go to vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more, they are giving 20% off as a one-time code for all of my podcast listeners in the UK, USA and Australia. Importantly, they offer a 100-day trial for new customers. So if you're not happy, you can send them back for a full refund. You can get your 20% off code by going to vivobarethought.com forward slash live more. Now, on to today's conversation.

So Michael, welcome to the feel better live more podcast thank you it's uh an absolute honor to sit here with you and to be on this podcast because um feel good is what life is about it is well look um as you well know swimrun is something that has probably changed my life more than anything in you know the year. So we're in 2019, we're currently at the end of November. I've come out to Malta to do my second swim run event in the last four weeks. I've come out with my son again. And it's really something that, I don't know, has changed me on many levels. And I'd love to explore that with you. So you are the race director.

Is that right? Is that your official title? I'm one of the race directors. Mats and I, we started Ertila as the race is called in 2006. And we didn't know at that time that that would be the start of a whole movement called swimrun for us it was a very specific race that we wanted to put on yeah and we wanted that race to get world renowned but then things sort of evolved. In the beginning, people called us idiots.

And now maybe they do behind our backs. Well, I doubt it. And as we were just talking about before we put the mics on, the amount of people who have come out to Malta for this final event of the year is quite incredible, really, isn't it? Yeah, we have more than, i think we have close to 640 people who are racing this weekend and it was not something that we expected um when we put the race on to have that many we thought maybe 300 350 would be a nice number this is just uh fantastic for an inaugural event but i'm really curious you that Swimrun has changed your life. In which way?

You know, I grew up in the north of England. And I've done a lot of thinking about this. And my parents were Indian immigrants to the UK. And so they came over, they're trying to work hard and give their family, so me and my brother, a better life than they perceive they may have in India. And a lot of my childhood was spent, you know, it was at school. But, you know, in the summer holidays, for example, we never went and really did things in nature. My parents had never left India before, before they came to the UK.

So we went to cities around Europe. They wanted to see Milan and Barcelona and Paris and Stockholm and, you know, totally understandably. But I didn't realize until the last few years that I really didn't have that exposure to nature growing up that I'm now craving. And I think swimrun has come into my life at the right time, right? You know, turned 40 a couple of years ago, really looking to reconnect with nature, want to do something with friends, with community, become very good friends with the guys at Vivo Barefoot because I've been wearing barefoot shoes for maybe seven years now okay and they've really changed the way I walk things like my back pain all kinds of things and so there was a really nice um confluence of events that led me

to swimrun and the listeners of this podcast will know because I I interviewed Ross Edgley straight after I finished the the vivo barefoot swimrun uh back in June in Bantham that's right which is the very first event I'd ever done. And four days before that, I remember phoning the race director there and saying, look, I think I'm going to come down, but I'm not going to do the events. I've still not managed to ever swim

in open water in my life. I'm not sure I can actually do that. And they persuaded me. They said, hey, Rangan, look, if you want to do something like a swim run, this is the best environment to start. We've got safety boats everywhere. Don't worry.

I went, I won't go through the whole experience again for people who've heard it before, but I was scared. I panicked during the first swim because I'd never done this before. Somehow managed to get through, did the next run, swim, run, swim, run. And I finished it and I felt like a million dollars. A reborn. Completely reborn. I felt euphoric. And it wasn't just that I'd achieved something and

challenged myself. It was more than that. It was a real deep connection with nature. myself it was more than that you know it was a real deep connection with nature it was the fact that i did it in a team with somebody else though there was just so many factors i remember i only came down to devon for the weekend so i went home all i could think about was when could i do this again cool i got in touch with one of my buddies who again one of my best friends who lives 200 miles away from me yeah and. And he's also interested. We said, well, why don't we do a few events together? Fantastic. And that's our plan for 2020 is to meet up and do swim run events together.

That's fantastic. So I think there's quite a few things there. Yeah. And I hear and I feel everything you say because I understand the emotions because I feel the emotions too when I do it. I've been doing this for, well, it's our 15th year next year that we do swimrun. And for me, it's exactly that,

that special connection that you have with nature. And I feel that the most when I'm in the water. And I also feel it when I'm in difficult trail, when you're sort of navigating and you have to go on instinct instead of thinking. Yeah. And it's amazing. And I sometimes, or not sometimes, when I go into the water,

I feel how my body becomes part of something bigger because we're all electric pulses and we're all beating hearts. And for me, the beating hearts, we all sort of connect in the vibrations in the ocean. And every being in the water is connected through these electrical pulses. We don't feel them, but we all are. And when I think of that, when i go in the water it's the most profound thing is going in the water and just feeling that that connection with nature yeah i think you just so beautifully put

i think how i feel when i'm in the water. Yes, I enjoy the running part of it, but for me, it's about being in the water. And I guess for someone who, what are we now? We're ending November. I went in the water for the first time end of June. So July, August, September, October, November. I'm five months ago. Yeah, you're still not.

I'm a novice, right? You haven't come out yet. Yeah, so I'm still five months in. And this summer after that swim run event when i actually went down to devon again and every day i went and swam in the ocean i felt alive this wasn't just swimming this wasn't just uh working out doing physical activity because it's good for me yeah this was something much bigger much deeper yeah i felt you know i felt deeply connected you'd see wildlife you i don't know you just feel alive it makes me so happy to i mean i get goosebumps when you tell this story because that's what it's

about and and you know four weeks ago we were in can yeah and i met you for the first time and again i came out with my my nine-year-old boy we did the experience event together which on you know of course is a great bonding experience for a father to do with their child yeah number one number two um it was tough yeah the conditions were tough you know i remember particularly on the sunday that swimming from one island to the next you can only breathe one way because if you if you breathe the other way you would get a mouthful of water each time yeah and i finished it and i i thought to myself wrong and five months ago you couldn't even get in the water i would have been terrified and now you've swum in some pretty

challenging conditions uh and on a personal level it feels great yeah but me and my son have spoken about this over the last few weeks and um it's just incredible because i think you know as a father i take like all parents i take the the role modeling and the education that i can give my children very very seriously arguably it's the most important thing i think i do yeah i agree and even this morning i was just texting some of my buddies saying look yeah i've taken him out of school today to come and do another swim run event. But for me, this is education, right? Absolutely.

Teamwork. Yeah. Respect for the people around you. Respect for the environment. Yeah. Connection with nature. How do you overcome adversity? Because on these races, there will be adversity at some point.

Yeah. And that's the point right yeah and so for me i guess mike you've you've heard uh my experience in the last few months of how this has changed my life and i've already got four or five races in the diary for next year and you know and it's i hope i managed to make them all um but what experiences have you heard from other people since you started putting this on giving this event to the world you know what have other people reported back to you that's a very good question um i i think what the if i just think of what the general feeling is, is that the connection with nature and the challenge with nature, where you realize, I mean, most people in society, I think, believes that we can conquer nature because we are that type of people.

And the lifestyles that most people lead have no connection with nature. And then when you're exposed to being out in nature where you realize that you can't do anything, the only thing you can do is adapt. And it creates a bit of a paradigm shift. Because when you realize that it doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't matter what job you have, it doesn't matter how much money you have, the only thing that matters is you, your partner, and how you work together and how you adapt to the conditions around you. If it's stormy, if it's wet, if it's raining, if it's slippery, I mean, the combination of running and swimming, running and swimming in nature, where you constantly have to adapt to what's around you.

And it creates a completely new tool set where you have to be more open to what's going on around. You have to be more sensory, more, you have to be more open to what's going on around you. You have to be more sensory. You have to feel more. And I think that is the big difference that swimrun has done for a lot of people, where it's not about chasing time, because time is less important than adapting to what's around us yeah in many ways what you're saying is it teaches you to constantly be able to adapt to overcome adversity to be resilient and actually these are skills that we all need to actually survive and thrive in our everyday lives.

Yes, they should be. But in our everyday lives, I think we've gotten so detached from what reality is that we, and I don't mean this in a superior way or whatever it's just that the way that we lead our lives is that it's it it's it revolves so much about around money and the chase for money so that we can live a certain way that we want to and we sort of put our instinctual and let's call it animal skills aside and we don't develop them and i think this sport or the activity of swimrun and not i don't mean just racing just the activity of swimrun exposes you to nature and it also makes you you have to be in nature and it also makes you you have to be adapting to your partner as well yeah so you have to feel and and communicate how you feel and you have to show each other weakness and strength and you have to feed each other to help each other forward yeah and that is something that i hope that we can

share as a community with people around us and like you with your with your son and with other children just to show that there is another way that together i think we're so much stronger if we are willing to support each other respect each other and and work as a flock of animals instead of trying to become superior all the time yeah i mean it's a lovely way of looking at it it's reminding us that we are animals yeah we are i mean it's we have to admit it you know there's no way around it we're animals and we become detached from what it means to live as a tribe in harmony with the people around us um you know there's so many things going on in the world which means we've all become or many of us have become very me focused and i focused uh social media lends itself to um that sort of narcissistic trait that may exist in many of us. It really comes to the

forefront because of social media platforms. And again, I'm not here to criticize social media. I think social media can be used in a great way. It's a fantastic tool to spread fantastic messages. Absolutely. You guys on your social media accounts, you share lovely pictures and inspiring information about the events and the sports. I like to do similar things on my own channels. And again, it's not just social media. It's the way we are living these detached lives. And I agree, you know, by taking part in an event like this, particularly the fact that you have to do it with a partner, that I think is very unique about it. And I wonder where that has come from because, you know, I haven't done triathlons. Okay. I think for many people, triathlons are a great

way of them spending time and activity, you know, spending time and their free time. But for me, I'm not, at the moment it doesn't appeal, right? And that's maybe because I've got the swimrun bug and I see the next few years, that's going to be something I'm going to do a lot of. But one thing I have felt in the three swimrun events that I've done so far is a lack of competition. Now, let me just explain that because of course, some people are there competing, trying to win. But there seems to be a real collective community feel, like people are supporting each other. You go around and when you've finished a difficult swim, even people who are technically racing against you, the smiles, we're chatting, you're giving each other encouragement. you know you're giving each other encouragements and there seems to be a very um just a very unique atmosphere to swim run that i i haven't done a triathlon so i don't know if it's the same there

but for me this feels what i'm in my life at the moment and this is what i want more of well i think it comes or not think i know what it comes from because Mats and I, we raced adventure racing together since 95. Yeah. We started racing together. And we built a career around adventure racing. And in adventure racing, you race as a team. And it's a team that has to have both genders. So you're completely dependent on each other.

And we raced in teams of five and we had a race in teams of four so when we decided that we were going to do the original back in 2006 we for us it was natural that you would do it as a team of two because you share an experience that is not only your time or your position or whatever in the race but you share an emotional experience and you go through things together. And that is so much stronger and it's something that is rooted deep inside of us in a different way than in an individual race where you're, you know, the only thing you can share with a friend or with somebody who asks you how your race was, it was difficult. It was, uh, easy. I went fast. I was slow. Uh, but nobody will understand the emotions that you actually went through. Yeah. Unless

you're in a team. And so that was, uh, the original idea. And also, of course, from the safety standpoint, because we were sending out people into nature without much of a safety net. Of course, I mean, we have race marshals and we have safety boats and whatever. But you are dependent on yourselves and you are interdependent. And I think that is the big difference. And then when you compare, and again, I don't want to compare either, but the difference between triathlon, for example, and swimrun is that in triathlon, you know a swim distance is set,

a run distance is set, and it's usually on a flat tarmac road, and a bike's distance is set and it's usually on a flat tarmac road and a bike's distance is set so in your training you know how fast you swim you know how fast you run you know how fast you bike and you can constantly monitor during a race if you are keeping up to your time or not in a swim run race you don't know because you don't know what the terrain looks like a run that's uh two kilometers you might think oh i can do that i usually run at a 4 or 30 pace so i'll be done in nine minutes but it might take you 20 minutes yeah because you don't know what the terrain is and we don't change things on the course we let it be we let nature be we have to

adapt and the same thing with a swim you know if the waves are big or if there's lots of current or whatever you again you have to adapt so you can never control the factors of time and performance the only way and the only thing you can control in swimrun is how you and i as a partner, how we function together. It's the only thing we can control. And if we control that and we do that well, then we will be fast or faster or whatever. So I think it's completely opposites of the endurance spectrum,

triathlon and swimrun. triathlon and swim run and then when you then get back to um what this does to us is that you know we we have to learn to be dependent on somebody else and trust yeah that person to show everything you have as a doctor listening to that, I've got to tell you, it just spoke to me at my core because one of the biggest problems, one of the biggest health problems as well as social problems in society is loneliness. Loneliness is reaching epidemic levels all over the world. It is not just in the elderly. In the UK, men between the age of 30 and 45 are some of the loneliest in society, which is incredibly powerful when you think about it. And it's all to do with the stress response and how we're wired.

We evolved in a very different environment from the environment in which we live in today. We've evolved depending on other people. You have to have other people. In a tribe. Yeah. Whereas now we can live by ourselves yes we can work by ourselves we can feel that we're connected by going on our computers in the evening yeah um we don't even have to go to the shops and buy things anymore we can buy on an online app and it can be delivered to us yeah and so what it means to be human, actually, many of us can live in a way that is the direct opposite of what it has always felt like to be human and still survive. They may not be thriving, but they're surviving. you're saying and maybe this is why i feel such a deep connection to this sport is because on so

many levels it ticks a box yet it's it's fun to go and push yourself physically yeah it's fun to push yourself mentally yeah but it's also fun that you connect with other people in real life yeah and then also you know we're living in a time where people are concerned about the environments right with good reason climate change is a massive, ugly, the biggest issue. And I can't help but think that once you get in touch with nature, I mean, this is exactly what's happened with me. Once you get in touch with nature, you can't help but be concerned about the environment. But if you live in urban disconnected lives and nature is this thing that you read about or you see on TV or in a film,

it's easy to think like us and them, that it's different, that we can be separate from nature. So I actually feel that Swimrun and other events which connect us to nature in many ways are an absolutely vital ingredient to get people connected to the problem of climate change yes absolutely because you see it it's it's apparent i mean you go in the water and you see pieces of plastic and you understand that this doesn't work and you realize that fish have plastic inside of them

because they eat it because it's colorful or whatever but it's it's really interesting what you say with this connectedness too because i mean it's proven you as a doctor you know that if you go out into the forest and you go for a walk for half an hour or 45 minutes or whatever, it greatly reduces your cortisol levels. It helps you, it helps grow your frontal lobe in your brain and also your hippocampus or whatever you call it. Hippocampus, yeah. Hippocampus.

And these are vital for reducing stress inside yourself. So when we look at the base of swimrunners that we have, they're mostly urban people who live quite active or how would i say uh stressful could be stressful lives i think that's also a reason why people are getting so switched on to swimrun is because you go into a complete analog world and you you don't have to deal with social media. I mean, you're disconnected. Yeah. And during that time, you're also in nature. And this goes back to our ancestry.

And I think it helps reduce cortisol levels and everything so that when you come home, when you get out of the water, you've shared together with another person. home when you get out of the water you've shared together with another person uh you feel that a day or a week or a month has basically washed off you yeah and that is one of our ultimate goals is and that's the reason why we've changed from just having a world series races on the sundays to sprints and experience races so that more people have access to the sport so it's easier to get in so that you can get out yeah and just get away i mean that's interesting to me because you have these three levels the world series level the is it called the world series level yes world series level sprint and experience and i was interested as to how that came about because, you know, for many people, even the sprint, which is the mid distance will be too intimidating to actually

give this a go. And I'm always thinking about some of the listeners to this podcast who may be thinking, okay, I love what you guys have been talking about. It sounds great, but how do I do that? You know, I am disconnected from nature. I've never swum in the ocean before. You know, love what you guys have been talking about it sounds great but how do i do that you know i i am disconnected from nature i've never swum in the ocean before you know i don't know if i can do it what would you say to them if they're listening to it and they've they've had something that it sparks something inside them what would you say to them if they're feeling a bit nervous or scared i think life is taking one more step than you have done before. And I really mean it.

It's literally taking one more step. If you haven't run for years or if you haven't swam or whatever, just start walking. Go out into nature and walk. And then after a while, you can maybe run one minute and walk two minutes. And then after a while, you run two minutes and walk one minute. And then you run three minutes and you walk two minutes. It's just about getting things moving.

And if you're out in nature, I think you will feel that you will feel less stressed out and then when it comes to the water i mean most people know how to how to swim you don't have to be able to crawl or i mean get in the water and start swimming and if you if you don't want to go into the ocean start in in the pool yeah and then after you feel comfortable moving in the water or you feel comfortable in the water go into a lake or into a river or then nothing has to go from zero to a world series race which is quite you know extreme i would say i, everything is about taking one more step and daring to take a step outside the box because we can all do it. I'm convinced everybody can do it. If you're a son who is nine, I'm not saying,

I'm not making, reducing the ability of your son, but I'm saying that the trust because the waves in can they were hard they were big and there was way and there was and the trust between you and you went out and you started in that type type of condition which which is fantastic but i think anybody can do it i think that anybody can do it. Anybody can do it. Yeah, Michael, that's a great point because I think back to that, and now I'm, it's amazing how quickly your circle of comfort expands. Always.

Right? Literally four weeks ago, I know my son wanted to do it. He saw me do it in Bantham. And I'm thinking, you know what? When I was nine, I never had access to anything like this. I'd never been in the ocean, never done any of this stuff. But what an amazing experience would be. And I was thinking, I've always liked taking on challenges. Now, I would never do anything to put him in danger. But there was slight anxiety, I'm sure,'m sure because i was thinking okay so he hasn't swum much in the ocean we're about to go into these very choppy and wavy conditions but the

fact that we did it and we overcame it yeah i mean he's buzzing i'm buzzing and i'm i'd like to think that this is going to stand him in good stead for the rest of his life absolutely gives me a lot of confidence as a man as as a father, right? Because let's think about this. We are living disconnected lives, right? We work behind computers. We often are driven or take transport to work. As I said, we can get our shopping delivered to our house.

Actually, it feels pretty good on a really deep human level that I can look after my boy. That I was out in an ocean and it was wavy. And, you know, this sounds a bit old-fashioned, right? But it's a good feeling to know that actually when there is adversity there, I can look after my family. I think that's one side of it. And the other side of it is, I think, really the importance of what is manhood. And to me, it's one side doing what you did, but the other side is also being emotionally aware of your son's emotions because you're responsible for his experience and his emotions. emotions because you're responsible for his experience and his emotions and it's not about pushing that to a level where it creates fear or or adversity it's about building those positive

cornerstones of those emotions and i think that is something that has been very important for Mats and I. We never speak about anything being tough or anything being, you know, you have to be a certain type of a person or whatever. We want to lift out the emotional power that we as people have if we're willing to reach into the emotions that we have because the power we have in our emotions is so much stronger than what we have in our arms or in our lungs or in our legs and if we can tap into that and share that with a partner i mean it's so much stronger and that's one of the reasons why we also stand at the finish line

and we hug every person, the first and the last, because we want to share. You have given us your trust to go out and do the race. We want to share your experience, and we do that on a physical and emotional level. your experience and we do that on a physical and emotional level and it's it's so much more important than saying oh i'm tough or i'm muscles or whatever yeah it's you know hearing you speak it's really very powerful michael because i knew that i love swim run and I knew it has done something to me and I try to you know I've tried to rationalize it with the logical part of my brain right even though actually we're at our

strongest when we we go with instincts it's all instincts and emotions yeah but the way you're articulating it from your side it makes me realize why it's why it's been like a shot in my arm. It was like a drug of that, you know, it's changed me. It has fundamentally changed who I am as a person. That's fantastic. I feel it's changed many of my relationships. I view the world differently. I view myself differently. And, you know, again, thinking back to that person who's listening to this at home or out on their weekly walk and i think it sounds good but i'm not sure that's for me we are all capable of more than we think we are and the thing you get about nature that people

forget is that we can go further in nature because and this has been shown in many studies um we can run further we can swim further because there's something about being in nature our perception of it is very different from when we're doing 25 meter lengths in the pool or on the treadmill in the gym you know there there's no there's no comparison there's no comparison because you have to feel and connect. And so you forget, oh, how many laps did I do or whatever? Because you're adapting to what's going on around you and you're moving with the flow in nature.

And that's exactly it. Do you think there's something about Swimrun that meant it could only have come about in Sweden? Is there something about it? Is there something about it? Is there something about Swedish personality? Is it clearly something to do with the Swedish terrain? I mean, why don't you say, where has Swimrun come from? How did you guys come up with this idea of this new event

that is now spreading fast all over the world? Well, originally, as I said, Matsz and i we were racing adventure racing and that was our our sports career and it was part of our business at the time and we started in 95 and we had a race we had a team until 2008 matz raced all the way until 2008 i stopped racing in 2003 i think but then i worked a lot with you know all the all the media and financing and all of that and at the time in 2005 i had my car in a car shop and the and we had just done a big TV show in Sweden. And I went to pick up my car. And the guy said, you're the guy who's doing this adventure racing stuff. And I said, yes, I am.

And he said, oh, but I'd like to talk to you. I have some friends who did this bet. It would be great if you could do something commercial out of it. I wasn't really interested. But just because he had fixed my car i said yeah well tell me what is it and he said well uh on the island of utah which is in the stockholm archipelago and outside of stockholm there's 30 000 islands uh they the four guys were having after-hour drinks and they started challenging or talking about what they had done in the

archipelago by boat or kayak or skating or sailing or whatever and then two of them who were brothers they challenged the other two and said we will run and swim to the island of sandham which is uh 75 kilometers further away this is whilst they were drunk yes so they were drinking and they challenged them and they put a bravado yes between friends and it was between men yeah between men yeah and so they challenged each other um to run and swim to the island of sundown and the challenge was that the last team because they had to do it in pairs that arrived to the island of sundown would pay a full night in the bar and the hotel and everything like that and to on the way there there are four restaurants on other

islands and they had to pass those restaurants to know that the others were safe one but also so that the first team that came there would order what the others would have to drink and pay for so it was basically a long drinking game and a a couple of weeks later, they set off, and it took them, you know, 30-odd hours. And they did it in 2003, and then they did it in 2004. And they tried to get more people to come along in 2004, but nobody wanted to. And so I heard about this.

It was in October 2005, and I was just I was like wow is that even possible and he said yeah and I had spent quite a bit of time in the archipelago and I was like wow that sounds fantastic I said I'd I'd love to meet these guys and then I took my car and I called Mutz because we had a business together and we were racing together and I said Mutz how do you how what do you think about this? And he was like, oh, sounds crazy. And I said, yeah, it does. Let's see them and see what we can do.

So we met them and we talked about it. And they said, well, we took us this amount of time. And we said, well, the only way that we can do this in a commercial way is that we can manage it within daylight hours. Otherwise, it becomes too dangerous. And we started playing around with time of the year, because in the summer, there's too many boats in the archipelago. So it's dangerous. And we said, okay, it has to be at the end of the summer, when there are no more boats, but before the water gets too cold. So we decided that we would do it the first weekend in September. And we then said, well, what should we call it?

And Mats said, well, let's call it Ö till Ö because that's what we're doing. Ö till Ö means island to island in Swedish. That's exactly what it means. That's what it means. And Ö with two dots is an island. And so it's island to island wow and then we said okay that sounds great that's what we're doing and then we designed the logo with the runner and the swimmer yeah and that was it and then we said okay we have to test it so in june 2006

we went to the island of sandhamn and we got in there. We said we had to start in Sandhamn and finish at Uta because we can have a good party there. And we got in the water and we started running and swimming, running and swimming down towards Uta. And then after three quarters of the way in the late afternoon, we said, okay, this is fine. People can manage. in the late afternoon, we said, okay, this is fine. People can manage. And then we started calling friends because it was before Facebook and everything like that.

We started calling friends that we knew in the endurance world and said, oh, we're going to do this race. Come race for us. So the first year we had nine teams and two teams finished. And the second year we coerced four teams the night before the race in the bar to come and start the race so that we could have more teams the second year than we had the first year so the second year we had 12 or 13 teams and we said you have to start and then you can drop out after the first swim and again the second year we had two teams that finished.

And now this year, I think there's more than 700 races around the world. We, in our races, we have participants from over 50 nations. So it's a sport that's spreading like wildfire. So that's sort of the origin of it. And it's fantastic. I mean, realizing that this idea, and we said in 2012, we realized that, okay, this is really taking off. It's not just one event. People want to do more of this.

And so we started creating more events. And for us, it was sort of our legacy from adventure racing. We wanted to do something after adventure racing that could, you know, grow. And we realized in 2012, oh, it is going to be Auteuil and something we can push and create a sport out of. And now, I mean, it's a sport. And even if we disappear, if RTR disappears, the sport of swimrun will continue, which is fantastic. Yeah, it's... It's really cool.

It's incredible to hear that. And it just shows you that, you know, just a couple of guys out in a bar, having a few drinks, chewing the fat together, ends up with this idea that becomes this global sport. Just taking a quick break in today's conversation to give a shout out to the sponsors of today's show. Athletic Greens continue their support of my podcast. To be really clear, I absolutely prefer that people get all of their nutrition from foods. But for some of us,

this is not always possible. Athletic Greens is one of the most nutrient-dense whole food supplements that I've come across and contains vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, and digestive enzymes. So if you are looking to take something each morning as an insurance policy to make sure that you are meeting your nutritional needs, I can highly recommend it. For listeners of this podcast, if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash live more, you will be able to access a special offer where you get a free travel pack box containing 20 servings of Athletic Greens, which is worth around £70 with your first order. You can check it out at athleticwings.com forward slash live more. Going back to your question, is it a sport of our time?

I think everything in life is about seeing an opportunity and doing something with it and then being persistent. Because if you feel that this is something that is right, you keep working at it. I mean, it's not like it's been easy all the time. We've done a lot of soul searching and a lot of battling and a lot of, you know, it's been a journey. But it's a journey where we're taking steps forward all the time. And it shows that there is plenty of things that happen in life, and we just have to see the opportunities and make something good out of it. And, yes, I think it came perfectly in timing

because before when we were racing in adventure racing, we spent heaps of money creating TV productions and then finding TV channels that could send it and so on. Yeah. And with the rise of social media and the digital media, it's been a very different story trying to spread the story of Swimrun. And it's easy with images and video. We reach a lot more people in a much easier way.

So yes, it is a sport of our time. Yeah, it really is. And I think it reminds me of something I wrote when I was writing my last book, The Stress Solution. I think the words were something like, many things we do in the modern world and technology drive us inwards. Nature is expansive and forces us outwards. And as you were describing swimrun just then,

I never really thought about it as it is almost the antidote to the problems, or one of the antidotes, I should say, to many of the problems we are facing. It's the only antidote. the problems or one of the antidotes i should say to many of the problems we are the only antidote that's how i feel but i'm just it is it is there's so many things that by default will improve your life and i really want um you know i'd love the listeners of this podcast to think about this and think about, I wonder if swimrun is for me. I wonder if actually I should give that a go and look it up and maybe get in touch with a friend or what you can also do. And like I did, you can get teamed up with an experienced racer. And this is exactly what I did so i've you know i was i wasn't actually

tied to them uh even though you can do that but i went out with an experienced swimmer so it just gives you that sort of um that ease that that comfort when if things make you a bit scared you know there's someone around you who's kind of been here before yeah and i really think that is one of the most unique things about swimrun that it's yes it's all in nature but more importantly you do it with someone else yeah i think it's incredibly powerful um it's probably what is pulling me to it more than anything is that i do it with someone yeah um and you know i had the books to come out a couple of days ago you know i hurt my wrist a few weeks ago i didn't think i'd be able to and i tell you honestly like many of us my workload is through the roof at the moment and i could have i could think of a thousand reasons not to come yeah but all i needed was one damn good reason yeah to book the flight and get on the plane

thank you and it was the event it was the fact that it's about experiences it's like my son wants to come it's the end of november this is our last chance really to get in the ocean together before the european winter yeah let's just do it yeah work will be there when i get back yeah just go and do this and um you won't have heard this i'll send this to you afterwards i had a a conversation with James Wallman a few months ago back on the podcast. And he wrote this brilliant book on how we should spend our time.

What is the most productive use of our time as a human being? And he's got these seven rules. And if anyone's listening, so they haven't heard that, do go back and listen to that. Because there's a lot of wisdom in what he has to say.

But one of the things he advises is get outside and get offline. Yeah. And create an adventure. Do things where you create stories, right? Where things go wrong and you have to overcome them. And then that evening, you're talking about it. He says, that's how you make really meaningful experiences. And when I, this is really funny thinking about it now.

When I spoke to James on the podcast, I'd never done Swimrun. No. Right? But now, had I had that conversation with him now, I would be saying, look, Swimrun pretty much ticks all of these boxes. You know, I can't remember all seven of those, what the tools were, but I'm going to go back and have a look. And I would not be surprised if Swimrun ticks most of those boxes.

And so I think there is something incredibly powerful about this event right now in the 21st century. One thing I really like about the events is that there's a real focus on the environments. So the events are done in harmony with the local environments. You know, plastic is not allowed, all this kind of stuff. I really like that. Is that something that you had feedback to put in

or was it always a natural part of how one should do these events? Well, I think when you have spent a lot of time in nature and not in the sort of city park but i mean in in bigger nature you realize what the world looks like with with garbage and what it looks like without garbage. Because when you've been to places where there is no garbage, you really see the garbage that we have around us. And yes, we are creating events in places where people travel to. places where people travel to and what we want to do to offset that is to try to bring awareness to the problems that we have around us and try to do something good about it

and we we feel very strongly that we want to to create a small of an impact as possible to create as small of an impact as possible being an event. So that we always say that what we want to leave behind is footsteps and memories. We don't want to leave any garbage. We don't want to create extra garbage. We do create some garbage, but we say, okay, we don't do any course marking with any plastic. Everything is with cellulose, so with paper.

And that came about actually from one of the first RTOs where we had plastic taping that we, like most events do, to show the way. And we went through a paddock and the farmers called us and said, you can't do that because if the horses or the cows start eating the plastic taping, they'll die. And we had no idea, and I was like, oh, my God, that would be the worst thing that I could ever do. So we right away started sourcing, and this is back in 2007, I think. and this is back in 2007, I think,

we started sourcing a byproduct from the forestry industry, which is this cellulosa paper ribbons that we use. So that, one, if an animal eats it, it's not bad because we go through nature they're for sure wild animals and two if for some reason something blows down it it is biodegradable um so that was the start of that and then Mats and I said okay we have to really try to do as little impact as possible and then now it's two years ago um we realized that we were consuming about 60 000 cups in a season and we were you know it was paper cups and it was recycled but anyway we were producing them transporting them using them once throwing them away and then creating garbage and we said and

we at the same time it was was an English race called Brecca. They had just introduced a collapsible cup that they had given to their racers. And we said, we have to do that. So we then right away decided, okay, we take away all our cups. So we only have cups now on the first two energy sessions. So we only have cups now on the first two energy stations. And the reason for that is that there's too many teams or too many racers, so it becomes unfair.

It's a race, so it has to be fair. But beyond that, every racer has to have their own collapsible cup or whatever they have to drink at the energy stations. We don't provide any more cups, which has greatly reduced the amount of cups. Another good part of that is too, we say also from the very beginning, from 2006 when we started, is that anybody who throws anything on the ground, any paper or any gel wrappers or whatever, if we see we see we disqualify you there's no discussion you're out the best part of it is that the racers they tell each other hey you dropped something can you pick it up yeah or somebody said oh you dropped it i pick it up and

i'll give it to you and so the community is really managing this in a good way not saying that there's not garbage on some courses which is unfortunate but we also have a sweeper team at the back of the at the back of the course and they take everything down so at the end of the race, when the last team is finished, we know that the course is empty and that if there's any garbage that has been dropped, it's been picked up. And probably we have cleaned up more than there was before. So that's important to us.

We also have this awareness campaign that we call Clean the Ocean. And we have an activity once during the race weekend where we go out together with our racers in the local community and we do a garbage search and collect. And the purpose of that is actually to raise awareness that 80% of the garbage that we find in the ocean is thrown on land. that we find in the ocean is thrown on land. And if we all can do something, then maybe we can get somebody else to inspire somebody to start picking something up. So now when I go out running, if I see something on the ground, I'll pick it up. And I think if we all do this, we can do it.

And I think it's fantastic with all the school children who are you know who have this a strike for for the climate on fridays and everything just please go out and collect garbage during that time and not just sit down you know yeah i think it it's it's so easy to walk by a piece of plastic but it's even easier to pick it up when you start realizing yeah and it's it's so fascinating how you've described that because you know i think many of us will see that garbage and go it's not my garbage i didn't drop that i'm not picking it up but actually it's our world it's our garbage it's if we don't pick it up it's going to still be affecting us in the same way as it's going to affect everyone else and i think that's the key here right so

a lot of people these days and sorry just to butt in but if somebody sees you yeah just walk by stop and pick something up off the ground it will probably start creating questions in their head lead by example. And that's what we have to do. And for our children, we have to. I'm so on board with that. It's not about telling people off necessarily or telling them what they should be doing.

That doesn't work long-term. It doesn't work across the population. It doesn't work as a doctor with a patient telling someone what to do. There has to be some sort of other incentive, some sort of emotional connection before we actually go and change our behavior. And I agree, you know, there's something very powerful about seeing someone to go, oh, well, they just picked that up and it wasn't them dropping it. And then it almost forces you, a bit like a mirror, to

question yourself and go, hey, well, I don't really do that. Maybe I can do that next time. And it really is powerful. And then there's a wider conversation here that when we talk about the environment, it does appear, and I think Russell Brand did a video on this recently about Lewis Hamilton,

because Lewis Hamilton is talking a lot more about the environment. And he's getting a lot of criticism because he's in Formula One and I don't want to go into all the ins and outs of that but one of the things he said in that video was really powerful he said if the price of entry into the debate on climate change is personal perfection we've got a big problem yeah for sure and maybe he articulated it slightly differently but i thought that was so powerful yeah we are all imperfect yeah pretty much all of us are doing something that is leaving a footprint on the environment does that mean we can't talk about it does that

mean we can't raise awareness does that mean if we ever take a flight then that excludes us from talking about climate change no i actually would argue that events like Swimrun do so much for the environment. Yes, there's a carbon footprint on people traveling there. Okay. You're not denying that. I'm not denying that. But the awareness you get from connecting with nature, connecting with other people, understanding nature. And I could tell you from someone who didn't grow up with nature that is like a light bulb moment yeah right you are suddenly connected uh to the world in a way that often you're not when you live away from nature yeah and so i think that's very powerful i think what you also said about that these events that you and Matt's put on, you have competitors from over 50 different countries. And I think that's another point which I think is worthy of discussion.

A lot of the problems in the world, I think, come from this idea that we're separate. Yes, separate from nature, but separate from each other these barriers um you know there's obviously these polarizing debates on brexit at the moment but i fundamentally at my core believe that we are all connected we're all the same you know you when you're around the ocean and you're a bit out of breath right it doesn't matter if you're black white or brown it doesn't matter if you come from sweden the UK, man, woman, you have got the same problems or the same challenges to overcome, right? We're all the same. And actually, once we start realizing that, that I think the whole conversation around

the climate, the environment, connection. Gender equality. I think it becomes a lot easier yeah these things are only problems because we see ourselves as separate yeah michael given where this all started back in 2005 when you became aware of this crazy idea of swimming and running and swimming and running over and over again. And now we're at the end of 2019. Could you have ever imagined 14 years ago that you'd be here today? You'd be here in Malta and so many hundreds of people are coming out to compete and participate in these events. That's the first point.

And the second point is, given how quickly and rapidly this seems to be growing now, what are your hopes for SwimRun in the future? Well, to answer the first question, I mean, there is no way that we thought that it would be this huge movement that's happening at the moment. I mean, for us, we had one ambition that was to create a world famous race, which RTR has become. So that we managed. which RTR has become. So that we managed. What we didn't realize and took us some time to realize that it was the beginning or the root of something that we could feed

and make something bigger out of. And when we then started feeding it, we had an ambition of growing it, but, I mean, there is no way that you can imagine. It's like stepping through all these thresholds and dimensions and you realize that the world just expands. It's like a big bang, you know, sort of thing. So, no, there is no way you could imagine it. And I have no idea what it will be like in another 15 years.

Can you dream well what i would like is and we talk about this internally and and what i would would like is that earlier and then swim run but i mean if we start and if we do it with with our events and then maybe the sport will become the spearhead into society where at least we can be a vehicle for change because we are connecting with a lot of people and and we are creating platforms, and thanks to this talk we're broadening that platform as well, and we can use it to create change. And the change, not something we want to force onto people, but that people realize that this is something that is a way forward. There's many ways forward, but it could be a way forward.

And if we can be successful in creating change through our events, then I think that would be the ultimate goal. For us, the ultimate goal is not monetary. It's using what we have to create something bigger yeah i mean i think you've already left a legacy here in a big way um i think i i read recently that the peak age for people competing in triathlons is, you know, in early to mid 40s, something like that, which sort of makes sense to me that at that stage in people's lives, often they've had kids, they've sort of been weighed down by mortgages and all kinds of pressures. And then

they're searching for something more. Is this what life is? Just going to work, driving there, coming back, waiting for the weekends, over and over again. Do you know what are the peak ages of people? What are the common ages of people who come and compete in a swim run? Well, it's changing. Originally, it was, you know, people in their early 40s, you know, late 30s, early 40s. in their early 40s you know late 30s early 40s and in the beginning you know the sport grew with them so aged with them and now we're in in a generation shift so we see a lot of younger people coming into the sport which i think is fantastic because um they are bringing something

new to the table and they're also and i see this i i speak a lot about it because in sweden we have a big problem with it that we live we live horizontally we live in in generations and we don't mix vertically and learn from each other in generations but in swimrun or in ourimrun or in our races, we have people that are, well, we have your son. Yeah. And we have people that are in their late 60s, early 70s. And if we can learn from each other and be a community together,

then that's fantastic. then that's fantastic. And I want us to be inspiration for people to go out and experience swimrun and experience nature. They don't necessarily need to come and participate and race because racing is one type of a mentality. But if we can get people to go out and and experience swimrun then i think we have achieved something very special yeah for sure and i would just add there for people who are thinking about this it's almost like if you have not really connected that much in nature so far and or you would like to connect

more with nature i'd really encourage people to to look up a swimrun event because you're doing it in a very safe controlled environment and what that can do as it has done with me is it gives you a taste you really experience all the benefits of it and then then away from the events, you want to access nature more, right? So, it's not just about the event. It's almost just like a gateway in for many people. And some people will be listening and go, well, I always access nature. That's fine. Great. If you already access nature, maybe this is another way of seeing nature and experiencing nature in a different way. But for someone who lives in an urban setting and struggles to be active, and I know I have many listeners like that,

don't let this be off-putting. Let it be inspiring. Allow. Look at it and go look at an experience event and look at the distances and go, you know what? I could do much more in that race environment anyway when I'm in nature. Have you got a friend who you can do this with you can be accountable to each other and train um I honestly believe it will change people's lives and then you know it's it's actually when you say that from that standpoint too I want to point out that you know in a seven and a half kilometer race where that's the total distance, a run section or a land section, because it doesn't even have to be running, you can walk it, is no more than a kilometer and a half. And a swim section is no more than 400 meters.

So, I mean, and you can breaststroke that or float it or whatever. So those seven and a half kilometers, you consume them quite quickly. Instead of if you go out and you say, I'm going to go for a run in town for seven and a half kilometers. I mean, you don't want to do it. Yeah, Michael, I was so glad you brought that point up because that is the key. You're not doing these long, prolonged distances in one discipline. You may run for 1K or walk it for 1K and then swim for 200 meters and then run for half a K. And then, you know, it's broken up and you're using different muscles each time. So, it's actually very, very achievable. And if you want to walk or do breaststroke or just lay on your back on your wetsuit and get your breath back, you can that one of the funnest things again for people who aren't familiar with this is that i love the fact

that whatever you start the race and you finish in yeah right so it cuts out all this kind of transition and change over it feels very mentally freeing you just rock up at the start line with whatever you've got on yeah you will finish like that yeah you run in your wetsuits and you swim in your shoes it is it is so much fun it really is so much fun um final question really is just to fill into that too i think also that by being so accessible in that way you can really take away all the all the financial problems or the financial not problems but the financial uh setback that you would have with with for example buying a bike or renting a bike or traveling with a bike and all of this stuff it's easy like you say it's so easy to get out hey i i just i remember when the first event i did i didn't know much about it i just knew i was swimming and running

i knew i needed a wetsuit and again i'm not recommending people do this but the morning of the event was when i literally got this wetsuit out of its wrapper and thought oh does this fit me this feels pretty tight i'm not sure this you know i'm not saying that's the right that's the best it's not the optimum way to do it but it's the way that most people do it the first time yeah but it was the way i did it but then i remember getting on the bus yeah to the start line and i felt like i was like you know forrest gump or something just rocking up to the local pool because i was in this wetsuit that wasn't sure that fit me had my trainers on i had my goggles that was it and then I saw people with pool boys and all kinds of other paraphernalia and initially I started to go oh should I have more then I thought actually wrong and it's quite

freeing yes not worrying about that stuff you've just got the the basics just get out there and do it yes now I go and do it with the pool. Now I understand how much harder I made it for myself by not having a pool boy. But you don't need that much to get going. And I think that's inspirational. I want to just talk about children for a second, because a lot of the themes we've spoken about is, yes, what a swimmer can do for us individually, but also potentially what it can do for society and bringing people together and the environment. And of course, all those things are great for adults. But if we're going to really change the world, right? Wouldn't it be amazing if kids and children had access to all these feelings and experiences rather than waiting for when people are 40,

42, 45. And I'm slightly biased asking that question because as you well know, I brought my nine-year-old son to the event four or five weeks ago. He's here with me again today. We're competing tomorrow morning. I say competing, I should say we are participating tomorrow morning because that's what it's about for us. We're there to have fun, get out in nature, see our friends, see the community. But have you been asked this question? Is there more interest in children participating in events like this? Of course, there are logistical issues as well. Then if you're going to have a load of kids coming, I get that. But is it something you guys have thought about or is it something you will think about? Do you think? Because I really think that you are on something, that you and your partner really have created something that is

much more than physical activity. It is so much more. It deals with our physical health, our mental health, but also deeply our emotional health and planetary health. And therefore, for me as a father, you know, I want kids to have access to this. Yeah. And we feel the same. I mean, we're fathers ourselves and, you know, we have families. and, you know, we have families.

And I think the most important responsibility that we have as a parent is to create self-confidence and belief in yourself and expose you to making wise decisions when you are young. And the reason why we haven't gone fully into the kids' races and so on is that we feel that it's really important that the child makes the decision that they want to compete or want to participate, but that they also know what they're getting into, because we don't want to scare them. We don't want them to have a bad experience. And that's why when parents say that they want, we don't say that you can come and race with your kids. But when parents can contact us and say, can I bring my, can I do this with my son or daughter or with a child?

And we say, yes, if the child wants to. Not if you want to. Because there's so many parents that are pushing their kids to do things that the kids may not want to do so our first question is that we want the children to want to do it and i try to talk to most of the children uh to make sure that they also realize that hey if i don't think this is fun then i should stop yeah it's okay that it's challenging but if you feel scared or you don't think it's fun stop yeah and say no because that's a word we have such a hard time to use and we need to use it more no is a really important word for children to learn yeah but it has to come from them and not from the parent yeah do you understand what

i'm saying 100 and that's the reason why we're we're a little reticent because we don't want to create something i i want the child to i want to be part of this and i want to try it and then you can start moving that way so i would rather move slowly down that path than to hurry it up and hit a wall yeah i think such such important points. And, you know, from my perspective, it has always been led by my son. He has always been saying, I want to do this. It's never come from me. He witnessed me do that event where I got scared. He was there. And I'd like to think he saw daddy get scared, but overcome adversity and show him and my daughter that, hey, look, you can also overcome obstacles that you don't think you're able to overcome so he's always driven that that he wants to do that's probably the reason i'm here

this weekend is because he kept asking me daddy daddy we're gonna go we're doing malta we're doing malta um so i think that's a really important one i also want to raise that when i first uh got invited to can by a mutual friend of ours i I text him and say, hey, look, a kid's allowed to do this. And I think our mutual friend contacted you and forwarded me the text when I didn't have your details. I said, yeah, Michael says he can do it as long as he finishes with a smile on his face. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And as you guys well know, that's exactly what he finished with. And I'm almost certain that tomorrow morning he will also, if we do finish, which I'm sure there's no reason why we won't finish, we'll also finish with a smile on his face. Michael, this podcast is called Feel Better Live More. When we feel better in ourselves,

we get more out of life. I think these events that you put on absolutely demonstrate that more than anything. People, I'm sure, go away from these weekends different people. They go change. They're feeling better. It's going to impact their work, their relationships, the way they feel about themselves and the people around them. I always love to leave the listeners with some simple, actionable tips that they can think about applying into their own life immediately to improve the way that they feel now you have lived a checkered life you've had so many different experiences and a whole variety of different disciplines i wonder if you have any closing words of wisdom for people listening right now?

Yeah, I think it's take one more step than you're doing today. Step outside the box. It just takes one step and the box gets bigger and you see something new and you realize something new and you have a new experience. So one step out of the box. Everybody can do it. Every single person, no matter if you're the best athlete in the world or if you're somebody who's never been in the forest or whatever your situation is in life, we take one more step out of the box. We expand our world so much. And say hello to somebody. Brilliant. Two fabulous tips.

Michael, thank you for what you and your partners are doing for the sport, for the world, for helping improving people's lives. If people want to get a hold of you or they want to find out more, where should they go? Well, I think the best way to find us is on Otillo Swimrun. So basically you go to the internet and you look up Otillo Race

and you find us that way. Absolutely. And guys, I will put links to everything we spoke about. I put links to their website, their social media channels in the show notes page for this episode of the podcast, which will be drchastity.com forward slash swimrun.

Michael, thank you very much. I have no doubt we will do more of these conversations at some point in the very near future. Thanks for your time today. Thank you very much. That was fantastic. Thanks, buddy. Give us a big hug. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. That concludes today's episode of the Feel Better Live More podcast. I really hope you enjoyed that conversation between Michael and I. And if you want to hear a very brief conversation that my nine-year-old son had with Michael, you can hear that at the very end of today's show. I really do hope that conversation connected with you and made you think whether you are interested in outdoor sports or not. I think Michael's tips there at the end were fantastic. And as always, do try and take one thing from this conversation that you can start applying

into your own life immediately. Now, as I mentioned in the intro, I have teamed up with Vivo Barefoot to put together some fantastic free prizes. Vivo Barefoot also sponsor the Attila Swimrun event series. And with myself, we've got an amazing prize package for my listeners to enable you to also experience swimrun like I did last year. Now, Attila swimruns offer three different distances, meaning you really do not have to be a pro athlete to give this experience a try, unlike other competitions or endurance sports. The swimrun experience distance is a great entry-level race to push yourself to do something new. Then there are the sprint and the World Series races for those of you who are a bit more experienced.

The courses are designed to challenge, but also to allow you to appreciate and experience the beauty of your surroundings and enjoy your time with the swimrun community you'll be taking part with. They take place in epic locations of natural beauty in the UK and also in Europe, such as Croatia, Sweden, Germany and Malta. The races do consist of swimming in open water and can be done in pairs or alone. They are very safe, they are well marshalled. I was very nervous on my first experience and actually had never swum in open water before i'm absolutely not recommending you do that but the point is that if you want to get involved with something like this there

probably isn't a safer environment in which to do so safety is paramount for the race organizers so vivo beth and i are encouraging you to step out of your comfort zone this year and take on an experience you simply will not forget. The top prize this week is an all expenses paid trip for two people to an Attilo Swimrun race in 2020. Viva Barefoot will provide travel, catered accommodation, race entry, arc, wetsuits, and all the kit for you and a partner to take part in your first ever swim

run experience if you are a little hesitant Viva Barefoot will also set you up with some open water swimming and trail running training and advice ahead of the race in addition if we can make your schedule and my schedule lineup I will try my very best to be at that event with you, to meet you, maybe grab a coffee or meal together if we can to catch up. For the second prize, we're offering free Attilo entry places to the race of your choice in 2020 and a pair of Vivo Barefoot shoes for 10 winners. And for the third prize, we're offering 10 pairs of Vivo Barefoot shoes. I cannot recommend enough, given this experience, a go to enter. Simply go to vivobarefoot.com forward slash competition.

Please note that this competition is only open to listeners in the UK and the US. And entry closes on the 29th of March, 2020. Again, guys, go to vivobarefoot.com forward slash competition. I really hope you like the prizes that we have put together for you this week. And don't forget, Vivo Barefoot continues to offer their 20% off for all of my listeners at vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more. Now, guys, this giveaway for me is something that I really

want to do a lot more in this podcast. I want to use this ever-growing community of online listeners to create offline connections. This competition is going to do that, but also for people who've joined my private Facebook group, the Dr. Chastity Four Pillar Community Tribe, they have set up a series of feel better live more meetups all over the country they're a bit like book clubs but they're actually podcast clubs I think there are over 40 so far people are getting together in their local communities most often they're going for walks and nature together and discussing a lot of the content in my books and my shows so if that's something that appeals to you,

do head over to that Facebook page, either start your own group or join one that is close to you. All the links you need for today's show are available at drchastity.com forward slash swimrun. There will be links to the competition website, to Attilo's website, social media channels, articles and videos about Swimrun,

including a BBC article and video that was made with me in it after my very first event. Of course, do let Michael and I know what you thought of today's show on social media. Michael is at Michael Lemel on Instagram and at Attilo Race on Instagram. I, of course, am on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and on LinkedIn. If you do enjoy my weekly podcasts, please do consider picking up a copy of one of my books. My latest one, Feel Better in 5, is my attempt to make health as simple and as accessible as possible. Everything in the book takes only five minutes to do, so even the busiest person can fit it into their lives. In the book, I tackle physical, mental, and emotional health, and I'm absolutely delighted with the response so far.

I think there's over 185 star reviews now on Amazon, and the book has only been out for one month. You can get your copy in paperback, ebook, or as an audio book in all the usual places. If you are new to my podcast or even if you are a regular old-time listener please do consider leaving a review guys it really does make a difference on something like apple podcasts it really helps raise the visibility of the show and helps me spread the words you can also take a screenshot right now and share with your friends and family on your social media channels or simply tell your friends about the show. I do appreciate your support.

Don't forget, you can watch pretty much all of the episodes also on YouTube. Best way to find my channel is to go to drchastity.com forward slash YouTube. And a big thank you to Richard Hughes for editing and Vedanta Chastity for producing this week's podcast. That is it for today. I hope you have a fabulous week. Make sure you have pressed subscribe and I will be back in one week's time with my latest conversation. Remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it because when you feel better, you live more. I'll see you next time michael please may i interview you yes that will be an honor thank you

so a lot of my listeners won't know what swimrun is so how would you explain it swimrun is an activity where you combine running and swimming and you run and then you get to the water you get in the water you run in your wetsuit if if it's if the water is cold or if you don't want to just go with your skin no you your shoes on, so you run straight down into the water. Yeah. And then you swim, and you swim with your trainers on, and then you get up on the other side, and you start running again, and then you run and you swim and you run and you swim

until you get to the finish line. And I know swimming's quite a new sport, but how did you come across it? Sweden, I live in sweden and uh outside of the city i live in stockholm which is a capital there are 30 000 islands and 15 years ago i met four people who had made a bet that they were gonna to go from one island to the next. So they crossed 24 islands to get to another place. And they asked me if I could make their challenge into a race. And that was the beginning of the sport of swimrun.

Okay. How do you decide where the events are going to take place? Is it the weather? That's a very good question, actually. We look, we want to create, we say that we create unique races in unique places. So we look at how the landscape and the terrain is so that if we have a race for example in can in france where you were four weeks ago it was in a city then we want to do a race that's

not in a city and we want to make a race in sweden it's in the islands then in switzerland we have one in the mountains so like lots of different reasons lots of different places where nature is is beautiful because we want to make you as a racer experience nature so nature is really important for us and then the last thing that's important for us to put on a race is that there is an infrastructure around so that you can stay in a hotel, you can eat food, you can travel there, and that we have 4G, you know, for the mobile phones so that we can put on a safe race. Okay.

And how many have you personally done? Oh, la, la. I haven't done as many that I would like to do. I do about three or four races a year. I don't have time for more. And that means that I've done, I started doing swim, run races about five years ago because before then I just put on the races

and then I realized that I think I really like this. And so maybe 20 races I've done. Okay. And what do you like about it? What's your favorite part about swimrun? My favorite part is swim run where you do both and where you have a partner that you have to depend on and that your partner depends on you and that you experience in the forest, you run and you follow the terrain, you sort of flow with nature. You become part of nature.

And how many swimmers have there actually been? Oh, la, la, that's a great question. Let's say that there have been maybe 10 000 no not even i would say 7 000 swim runs quite a few i would say but i think that in the next couple of years there will be be more than 1,000 a year. So it will grow quickly now. What's the benefit for children when doing swim runs? I think you can answer that question because what was the benefit for you? Well, in my first swim run in Cannes about a month ago,

I really liked it because you were in the city and when you looked in, it was just beautiful to look at. Yeah. Oh, great. It was really nice. Good. thank you. And why do you think Swim Room was a good idea to start putting it into races? Well, it started with being races. And then we realized that it would become an activity that people would like to do

was just going out and experiencing nature and creating… And it's getting bigger and bigger, isn't it? Yeah, very much. And then creating an adventure where you can go yourself with friends and just going to places where you want to explore. And you explore by running and swimming, and you can find so many new places that way. Where I live in Sweden, I live outside of Stockholm, and there is, between my house and Stockholm,

there is a huge national park. Right. And I've been running and mountain biking there for 25 years. And then when I started swim running, I all of a sudden could run to a lake. And then I swam across the lake and I found another trail that I hadn't been on before. And I started connecting places that I loved in a completely different way. So for me, it changed my way of training completely. And the name Swimrun, did you call it that straight away or were you thinking of names?

No, in 2012, so six years after we did our first race, one of our racers, she called me and said, do you mind if I call what we're doing swim run? And I said, no, that sounds fantastic. And I said, do you mind if we call what we're doing swim run? And she said, no. And from 2012, we have a name for the sport that we were doing. And last of all, is swimrun good for the environment?

I think swimrun is good for the environment in the way that you, as a swimrunner, you see what is going on in nature and you can start appreciating nature and that makes you want to take care of nature. And it's also a non-motorized sport. So you travel through nature like we've always traveled through nature, from the very beginning of our existence. Thank you for letting me interview you, Michael. Thank you for interviewing me.

That was very good questions. And I look forward to seeing you tomorrow and many more times, I hope. Thank you.