Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - A Monk's Guide To Finding Happiness, Cultivating Inner Peace & Slowing Down In A Fast-Paced World: Haemin Sunim #476

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

What if the key to happiness and fulfilment was not changing our external circumstances but learning to appreciate and understand our inner world? This powerful idea is at the heart of this week's conversation with Buddhist monk and author Haemin Sunim. Haemin is a Zen Buddhist teacher and the author of two Sunday Times bestselling books, including his very latest, the beautiful: ‘When Things Don’t Go Your Way: Zen Wisdom for Difficult Times.’    Haemin was born in South Korea, educated at Berkeley, Harvard, and Princeton, and received formal monastic training in Korea. When not travelling to share his teachings, he resides in Seoul, where he founded the Dharma Illumination Zen Center, offering meditation retreats and counselling programs. We begin our conversation exploring the tension between personal aspirations and societal expectations, what Haemin calls the "me of me" versus the "me of others." This internal conflict, he believes, is at the root of much of our stress and unhappiness.   We also discuss the importance of slowing down and being present, and how, in our rush to achieve and reach our goals, we can often miss the beauty and richness of our current experiences. With that in mind, Haemin shares some practical tips for mindfulness, that can help us reconnect with ourselves and the world around us.   A key theme in this conversation is the interconnected nature of all things. Haemin explains how adopting this worldview can profoundly affect our happiness and sense of purpose. We also discuss the power of listening, the importance of solitude, and the crucially important notion that we always have a choice in how we interpret and respond to life's challenges. And, even when things don't go our way, there's always an opportunity for growth and unexpected joy.   This is a beautiful conversation, full of deep and practical insights that I’m sure will help you find greater peace, purpose and contentment.    Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://calm.com/livemore https://vivobarefoot.com/livemore https://airbnb.co.uk/host https://drinkag1.com/livemore   Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/476   DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

When we are practicing gratitude, we are happy at where we are. We are not trying to grasp onto something that we don't have or resisting what we already have. Instead, we are just thankful for where we are. And I think that's where happiness resides. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. What if the key to happiness and fulfillment was not changing our external circumstances, but learning to appreciate and understand our inner world.

This powerful idea is at the heart of this week's conversation with the Buddhist monk and author Haman Sunim. Now Haman is a Zen Buddhist teacher and the author of two Sunday Times bestselling books, including his very latest, The Beautiful, When Things Don't Go Your Way, Zen Wisdom for Difficult Times. Heyman was born in South Korea, educated at Berkeley, Harvard, and Princeton, and he received formal monastic training in Korea. And when he's not traveling the world to share his teachings, he lives in Seoul, where he founded the Dharma Illumination Zen Center, offering meditation retreats and counseling programs. We begin our conversation exploring the tension between personal aspirations and societal expectations, what Heyman calls

the me of me versus the me of others. And this internal conflict, he believes, is at the root of much of our stress and unhappiness. We also discussed the importance of slowing down and being present, and how in our rush to achieve and reach our goals, we can often miss the beauty and richness of our current experiences. And so he shares some really practical tips for mindfulness that can help us reconnect with ourselves and the world around us. Now, a key theme in this episode is the interconnected nature of all things. And Heyman explains how adopting this worldview can profoundly affect our happiness and our sense of purpose. We also discuss the power of

listening, the importance of solitude, and the crucially important notion that we always have a choice in how we interpret and respond to life's challenges. And even when things don't go our way, there's always an opportunity for growth and unexpected joy. This really is a beautiful conversation full of deep and practical insights that I'm certain will help you find greater peace, purpose and contentment. You have been a Buddhist monk now for 25 years. In your opinion, what are people struggling with today the most? I think it's relationships.

You know, people have many responsibilities, so there are things that they are supposed to do. But at the same time, they also want to do their own thing. So this clash between what I will call me of me versus me of others. You know, me of others here means what other people expect me to be versus me of me that is the one that I want to become. And this clash of this desire, two opposite forces creating tension within me. So for example, I'm supposed to take care of my parents, but at the same time, I have aspirations. So I need to maybe move to a different city and to get promoted and do better job. So what do I do, you know, between these two important desires, the one that I want to take good care of my parents, or it is also responsible. You know, it's my responsibility to take good care of my parents. But at the same time,

I also feel like I have, you know, something I can contribute and develop and grow in my own professional way. I think it's a really powerful example. In your new book, you write about these two me's. And it's a really interesting concept to think about. But also, when you give that example, it makes me think of the modern world. Is this something that you think was a problem 500 years ago for example when people generally speaking wouldn't leave where they grew up they would stay there they'd help their family they'd do whatever but they wouldn't move to another city or another country for better opportunities therefore their responsibilities would be met in that way i guess what where i'm going with this is is this a problem

of the modern world where we now do have these opportunities and these exciting things that attract us so that we can chase our dreams but at the same time perhaps neglect what we feel are our responsibilities? I do not know. But I would assume that the same clash of these two different me of me or versus me of others have existed ever since, I don't know, ancient time. Maybe it's not necessarily they have to leave the city they were brought up, but they might have some different ideas about what I want to become, you know, their job or maybe different type of family obligations versus the new way of doing things from their perspective. a new way of doing things from their perspective.

So I wouldn't say this would be something brand new phenomena. Maybe the way those two problems were manifest, it could have been somewhat different. But yeah. Yeah. Do you struggle with the two me's? Yes, I do, of course. Yeah, we you struggle with the two me's? Yes, I do. Of course.

Yeah. We all do, right? There is some, you know, aspect of me I would like to become. And there is also expectation of me that I have to perform and carry out as a Buddhist monk. So I try to balance this too and so that I can have, you know, wellness of my mental state, you know, health and happiness. So, yeah.

Yeah. I've heard you talk about your own personal story when you left Korea and you went to the United States, I think in your late teens or early twenties. And you said that it wasn't until you went back or it wasn't until you left that you realized the gold that was already there in Korea. And I think that's a really powerful message for all of us. In English we have this phrase, the grass is always greener.

And I think that really speaks to that. Can you tell me about that a little bit? Yes. I think this is also the case for any spiritual practitioner. That is, they think that the final enlightenment, the goal, in order to achieve it, you have to leave where you are. And then you journey through. And then finally, only to realize that you already had it from the beginning. So that was also the case for me.

That is, when I left Korea, I began to really appreciate my own traditions. You know, my own, for me, it was a spiritual tradition in Buddhism. And I really began to study Zen Buddhism only when I left Korea. As I was studying them kind of from afar, I begin to see a little more objectively. And I begin to really appreciate the beauty of the traditions and profound teachings. So, yes. Yeah. That applies to all of us really, doesn't it?

Because often we feel that a nicer house and then we're going to feel happier. Or if I split up with this person and get into a new relationship with somebody else, I'm going to be happier. And of course, that may well be the case, but at the same time, wherever you go, you are always there. Right, right. Wherever you go, you are always there. Right, right. And so, yeah, I mean, how can people navigate that though? Because it is quite a common human tendency, isn't it?

To think that elsewhere is where the gold is. Right. They tend to think that, you know, the problem is outside, you know, it's the problem is outside, you know, or the goal that I try to arrive at. It is located outside. Did you think that when you went to America, did you think America had the gold? Not necessarily America per se, but I just wanted to see beyond Korea, you know, because I was very young. You know, when we are having any kind of, you know, relationship problems, like for example, then we tend to blame other people, you know, they are the cause of my unhappiness. And only to find out that when they are in a new relationship,

they end up having similar, you know, problem again. So then as you are repeating the same mistake again and maybe one more time, and then it dawns on you that, oh, maybe it's my innate psychological pattern, maybe unprocessed trauma, or maybe some of the problems that I haven't dealt with. That is keep on causing those problems, similar problems again and again. So maybe one of the important steps for me is to take good care of those needs and those

unexpressed emotions and examine them as opposed to just quickly jump into conclusion that it's others that they are causing me to be so unhappy. How do people go about examining their own emotions? Oh, well, I think, you know, one of the easiest way is to check in with your body. You know, our body is actually wiser than we think. So all of our subconscious influence, I think your body is feeling it, although your consciousness may not acknowledge that you have that kind of impact. So, for example, you know, somebody said, oh, I'm not angry after, I don't know, big event that happened. And yet six, seven or eight months later, they begin to develop different physical illness.

So I think it's a good idea to check in. How is my shoulder feeling? How is my gut feeling? Is there any pain? Usually when we are repressing or when we are resisting it, it manifests in our own body. So also, when it's clearly psychological, when there is some kind of stress,

then just realize that, oh, there is stress. Rather than running away, rather than try to ignore it, just sit with that emotions. I talk about in my book, When Things Don't Go Your Way, the first chapter was about sitting with difficult and challenging emotions. Because if you can just sit with your emotions, as opposed to running away, it reveals some of the great, you know, lessons, you know, truth about yourself. So until you actually see the truth, that emotion will linger on and continuously influencing you.

Yeah. I think that's so important, isn't it? I love what you said about the wisdom our body holds. And I think in our head-driven cultures that many of us live in, we have kind of forgotten about our bodies. I know I'm much better every day when I spend some time by myself each morning and tuning into my body. How does it feel? Where is there tension? When I take a deep breath, where is there some sort of restriction? Where is there not? I also like what you said about

sometimes we're saying we're not feeling an emotion, but your body is actually telling a different story. You mentioned that eight or nine months later, something else can happen. But even in the moment, I've seen this in disagreements all the time where someone will say, I'm not angry. I'm totally relaxed. And everyone around them can see that your body language is saying something completely different from the words that are coming out your mouth. So we kind of deceive ourselves, don't we? Right, right. I think our body, they don't lie. So we have to tune in to what our bodies, what they are saying. How do you specifically do that? And I guess as a follow-on,

if someone has never heard that concept before, can you walk them through like a simple practice? You know, it's okay for us to say, you know, you've got to tune into your body, but someone's going to be listening to this thinking, well, I don't know what that means. What does Heyman want me to do? So can you help advise them? It is called body scanning you know it's a very simple meditation you would just scan through your body starting from your head and to your uh maybe your tongue and face face and neck back of your neck or shoulder, chest, your tummy, your buttocks, your legs and feet. Just go through and see how they are feeling. You are not bringing any kind of judgment, you know, to that experience saying, oh, I'm

not supposed to feel that way. Or, you know, maybe this is not, you know, not a nice feeling. way, or, you know, maybe this is not, you know, not a nice feeling, you know, just you're going to hold that judgment and yet just see what is there. You know, you get, you want to see the truth. And once you see the truth, interestingly, without you trying to, you know, loosening it, it generally, it let it go. So the parts, the tension that you feel without, even if you don't try to release it, because you have seen the truth, it generally, you know, let it go, the muscle. I think that's such a key point, which I only really became aware of in the last few years, this idea that you can feel it, but you're not feeling it so that you can consciously change it.

You're just feeling it and noticing it, and then it starts to change. Right, by its own. You don't have to do anything. So I don't think many people realize that. And talking about these emotions that we sometimes have that we don't express or do something with, there was a very powerful bit of writing in your new book about anger. If you don't mind, I just want to read it

to you. If you express your anger without any filter, it will become bad karma and return to you. If you just suppress your anger and bottle it up, it will then emerge as an illness in your body. If you quietly observe the energy of your anger, it will change shape on its own and disappear. Absolutely. Yeah. I, you know, experienced it again and again. That is, if I can just honor, you know, what my emotion is right now, you know, how am I feeling? And as soon as I recognize and label, name it, either anger or frustration or and label, name it, either anger or frustration or sadness, you know, whatever that is. And then you peel that sticker off, the label off, and get in touch with the energy right underneath that emotions.

Then what happens is that energy of the feeling, emotion, naturally slowly evolve and then soon sooner or later it disappears. You need patience for this though don't you? You need to create time, you need to create space and you need patience because if you're constantly in a rush you don't have time to sit there with your emotions do you? It takes only 90 seconds. The change of that, seeing the change of your emotion, it takes about 90 seconds. Okay, 90 seconds. So let's say you're doing your body scan in the morning.

You've had an average night's sleep, let's say, and as part of your routine, let's say, in the morning, you just sit there and you do this body scan. And let's say you notice, oh, my stomach feels tight. Of course, many people feel anxiety and tension in their stomach. So are you saying that a lot of the time, if you just sit there and put your attention there, that within 90 seconds, a lot of the time, there that within 90 seconds a lot of the time it's just going to start to change um usually when it comes to our psychological emotions you know that's how i experience it that's it takes about 90 seconds you know within those time uh you generally see the change and then you know reshaping of your emotions and And then soon enough, it disappears, or you move on to another topic,

or you don't think about it anymore, generally. Maybe you are outside and listening to the sounds of birds. And so rather than focusing on your frustration, you are now focusing on the beautiful sounds of birds outside, and thereby you are not as stressed anymore. When it comes to bodily feeling tension, it might require a little more time than 90 seconds, but the fact that you are acknowledging it's there. And that's a really great, in first step and as soon as you you know have that acknowledgement then you know you can actually the fact that you are paying attention

to that bodily sensation is a sign of your love sign of your you know caring you you know what i mean so you are giving the the energy care, energy of love, and that particular intention of wanting to care for your body, that will by itself help you relax and release that tension. What would you say the cost is of not doing that? And I guess what I'm getting at is what I've seen over and over again and fallen into the trap of myself in the past is you ignore these bodily sensations, you stay in your head and you start distracting with news or Instagram or whatever it might be, even reading perhaps, right? You distract, you're putting your attention outwards. And once your attention goes outwards,

unless you're very intentional, it's very hard, I find, for people to put it back inwards. Is that your experience as well? Yeah, you can easily be distracted, yes. But at night, you'll feel it. Right before you go to sleep, oh my goodness, what's happening? Or on my shoulder or my back. There's so much tensions. So sooner or later, your body will start screaming,

unless you are paying attention and maybe start massaging the area or give some care. Is the body scan something you do each day? My daily routine is somewhat different, but whenever I feel tension i do apply you know body scan method but my daily routine is a little bit different are you open to sharing some of your daily routine because i guess a lot of us would love to know and understand what it is that a monk does every day to see if we can learn something from that

um there isn't any particular form that i follow rather as i am carrying out my daily life i try to see the emptiness uh um impermanence of the things. So, you know, whatever I experience, I can clearly see the impermanence of that experience. And when I see that, then I generally can let go very quickly. Can you share a practical example of that? Because I think what you've just said has got so many profound implications but I'd love you to sort of maybe help people understand a a regular day-to-day scenario that they may come across that they may get attached to but you're saying actually that your skill or something you've cultivated is the ability to know that this is impermanence right any examples come to mind um maybe you know when you are feeling

annoyed for example in the morning on your way to your work and you run into you know somebody who was very annoying maybe in your subway or while you're driving, you know. And then after arriving at your work and, you know, start maybe turning on your computer and whatnot and realize that it is not there anymore. The annoyance, not there anymore. You know what I mean? Yes. It's simple as that. You know, only if you, you know, rethink about it and try to bring those memory again and again and thereby holding on to that, you know, event of annoyance, then you feel as though you are entrapped in that experience of very negative experience.

However, if you can see that, whatever that really was bothering you, it's not here in front of your eyes. Isn't that magical? Whatever that really bothered you like 10 minutes ago, it's not here anymore. It's impermanent and your true nature is that which recognize everything as it is not the contents of their experience that example reminds me of one of the final sections in your new book called Discovering the True Self. I was reading that last night. And after reading it, I had one of the most blissful meditations I've had in months.

And I credit you for that. Honestly, it was absolutely beautiful because you were writing, and I think this speaks to impermanence. You're writing about that tranquil silence, the formless silence, and how thoughts and feelings have form. But ultimately, I think you said something like, when the thought finishes, that's where the silence is. finishes, that's where the silence is. And I remember last night, I was just meditating and the thought came and I waited for it to end. And then there was just calm until the next thought came. And the more I tuned into those little moments of calm, the greater they became. Until at some point, maybe five minutes in, there was just this really prolonged period. I can't think of any other word.

Peace. Yeah, I was going to say bliss, but yeah, peace. It was just, it was beautiful. So thank you for that. Oh, thank you. You know, people often think that if there isn't anything to think about, we'll get bored. And thereby we are jumping from one, you know, idea or one content, one thought to another thought to another event. You know, they don't want to just relax. They just want to constantly engage with something. But the truth is, we want, our true nature is peace.

That is, if we can just relax and enjoy the moment when there is no more thought, and yet you are aware that there is no more thought yeah in this empty and transparent awareness that's your true nature do you think being happy is our true nature yes Yes. People often think, you know, happiness means excitement. You know, when we are excited, then we feel happy. But, you know, if we want everlasting happiness, then excitement, you cannot sustain it for a long time. It fades. It disappears, you know.

So what we really want is some quality of peace, you know, in happiness experience, happy experience. So our true nature, I believe, is in a state of peace. And when we are not trying to go somewhere or arrive at, you know, other places, and yet you are relaxed, you know, here and now, and you are content with what you already have, or you feel grateful for what you already have, then that's where the, you know, happiness arrives, you know, lives. Rather than constantly trying to go somewhere, like what you said earlier, when I was younger, I thought that by going abroad, that's where happiness will reside.

Or by trying to have some special kind of enlightenment experience, for me it was, then I will finally be able to feel happiness. Then later I realized that the very seeking of those experience, the very trying to go away from right now, right here, that was the cause of unhappiness. Yeah. I love that. I think, first of all, I completely agree. I've had many guests over the years who have said that happiness is not our default state and that we are wired to seek survival, right? So the brain is not wired to be happy, it's wired to do the things necessary to keep us alive and reproduce. Now whilst I don't disagree with that, I think yes we are wired to do that, I do believe that once those basic needs are met, I also believe that happiness is our default state. And when I was writing my book on happiness, I was thinking, well,

how do I know that? Why do I believe that to be true? And one of the reasons I believe that to be true is if you look at kids, most kids anywhere in the world, two, three years old, right? On a warm spring day, they'll be in the garden. They'll be totally calm, content, present, in the moment, doing what they're doing. And I watch kids and I go, that's who we are. That's our default state. I'm sure of it. That is our default state. So firstly, yes, I also see the world that way. That's obviously a very Buddhist thing. And that's how my understanding is that that's how Buddhism sees happiness, that it is our true nature. I also love what you said about the seeking of happiness is

fundamentally flawed. And last year, there was a Swedish journalist interviewing me about happiness. And I remember she said to me, Dr. Chassie, how do you know when you're happy? And it took me a minute or two to think about it. I thought that's a really good question. How do you know? And the answer I gave and the answer I would give now is I think you know when you, again, I'm not saying you have achieved happiness, when you've uncovered the happiness that already exists within, is when you just stop wanting stuff. already exists within, is when you just stop wanting stuff. Like for me, I don't know, I just don't want anything. You know, like... Wonderful.

And look, I've worked on this. So I feel I, you know, I put into practice, I've been experimenting for many, many years, but there's very little I want in life. I feel that I have just a wonderful life. I'm very grateful for it. And so if someone asked you, how do you know when you're happy? What answer would you give? The mental wellness app Calm are sponsoring today's show. Have you had difficulty focusing lately? Things like parenting pressures, work challenges, school commitments, or just personal drama can wreak havoc on your ability to stay focused and productive. If this sounds like you, I know something that can make a real difference, and that's Calm. Calm is the number one app for sleep and meditation, giving you the power to

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week. Go to calm.com forward slash live more for 40% off unlimited access to calm's entire library. That's calm.com forward slash live more. Vivo Barefoot are one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, I am a huge fan of Vivo Barefoot shoes and have been wearing them for over a decade now, well before they started supporting this podcast. I've also been recommending them to patients for years because I've seen so many benefits. I've seen improvements in back pain, hip pain, knee pain, foot pain, and even things like plantar fasciitis. And contrary to what you might initially think, most people find Vivos really, really comfortable. But I have to say, especially at this time of year, as the temperature is starting to drop, their winter boots are absolutely

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to all of my podcast listeners. Terms and conditions do apply. To get your 20% off code, all you have to do is go to vivobarefoot.com forward slash live more. I think gratitude, you know, is another name for happiness. As I was coming to see you, I was inside in a train and looking out beautiful countryside of the United Kingdom. And I was thinking to myself, this is a wonderful, you know, I get to have this, you know, beautiful experience. And I feel very grateful for the opportunity. And as I was tapping into the gratitude, I felt really happy.

So when we are practicing gratitude, we are happy at where we are. We are not trying to grasp onto something that we don't have or resisting what we already have. Instead, we are just thankful for where we are. And I think that's where happiness resides. How does that apply to someone who maybe is not currently happy in their life? Let's say they're doing a job that they don't particularly like, that maybe doesn't pay them enough so that they feel comfortable, they may say, well, I get what you're saying, but I don't have anything to be grateful for. I will be happier when I get paid a bit more money and when

I have a better job that is more fulfilling for me. How would you help someone like that think about this? I think gratitude attracts more gratitude. So when we can find some things to be grateful for, even in the moment that it's very difficult to find gratitude, then what you will see is that unexpected opportunity comes to you. Just by remaining, you know, just critical and being cynical, usually it doesn't help you in the long run. Rather, if you can just, just grateful for very little things, it can be just the fact that I am trying to better my situations, you know, try to get, get a better job

and try to take care of my, you know, health. The very effort that I'm making, I'm very grateful. So rather than thinking about, you know about huge things to be grateful for, you can just start with just a small thing in your life. And as you are counting your blessing, and you will see that more opportunities, unexpected opportunities will come to you. Yeah. It's a practice, isn't it? It's something you get better at the more you do. Right. Generally speaking, when we think about things, we always think about negative things, problems that we have to deal with or the task that I have to finish.

So thereby, we feel a lot of stress. However, when we practice gratitude, rather than going into that thinking mind, we are actually looking for what is there to feel, you know, grateful for at this moment. Because we are practicing this gratitude. And I write that in my book. One of the ways is finding gratitude buddy. one of the ways is finding gratitude buddy. So you would text whenever you feel, you know, grateful for, you'll just text, send a simple text message to your friend, and then your friends will see that message. And probably this message will motivate him or her to write back, you know, and then look for more, you know, gratitude in their lives. Yeah, I think gratitude is one of the most underrated practices. I mean, we hear it all

the time. We see cute memes on Instagram talking about this, but it ain't enough. You've got to go and do it. Absolutely. You have to do it, don't you? You have to make it a practice that you are going to think about gratitude. And I don't know what you would advise for people. Like, are you a fan of people writing down things that they're grateful for? Or can you just think about it? I think writing down is better, you know? So, like, if you cannot find any gratitude buddy, you know, you can just text to yourself, you know, you know, you can just send a text message. So you'll see that maybe, you know, a week or in a month later, you know, in a huge

list of things that you feel very grateful for. And you can just go back and read it whenever you feel a little down. That's a great tip. Just text it to yourself and then you don't need to. Great. If you've got a friend you can do it with it to yourself and then you don't need to. Great. If you've got a friend you can do it with, wonderful. But if you don't, that's just such a beautiful way of putting deposits in your gratitude bank each day. Absolutely. Yeah. In the section on happiness in this book, you've got just so many wonderful quotes about it. There's two in particular I really like. People have realized that happiness comes down to knowing how to appreciate the life that you have been given in this moment. It's so simple, but it's so easy to not do that. It speaks to gratitude, doesn't it?

It's about appreciation. It's about the way I think about it and talk to people about that. It speaks to gratitude, doesn't it? It's about appreciation. It's about the way I think about it and talk to people about it. It's this idea that you do have this negativity bias in your brain for very good reasons. It's kept you alive for many, many years. But gratitude is the only way to counteract that. So if you do nothing actively, you'll naturally go towards negativity. So if you want to take control of that, you have to actively, positively train yourself to appreciate things. And if you find it hard at first, just keep showing up and doing it. And within weeks, you will start to see gratitude and appreciation everywhere. Again, one of the reasons I feel, generally speaking, so calm and content these

days, and dare I say it, happy, is because I believe that, and you write about this idea in your book, that where you put your focus, that's what starts to grow. Absolutely. Yes. So, please speak to that. I think we have to make a decision. You know, we have to decide to appreciate our life. We have to decide to enjoy this moment.

decide to enjoy this moment. You know, once you decided that I'm going to enjoy this moment, then it makes it much easier to appreciate things. Without that intention, it's hard, you know, the life just passes by and without really, you know, becoming aware of what we are having it. I love that. Let's just pause on that for a moment. You're saying you have to decide that you are going to enjoy the moment that's about to be there in front of you, right? Now, I think many people believe that the moment will determine whether I feel enjoyment. If it is a fun and enjoyable moment, I will feel happy. If it is a negative moment, I will feel negative and sad. But you're saying something completely different, which is before the moment arises, you have to positively decide, I'm going to enjoy it.

Yes. Because if you are just reacting, you are the victim. You will become the victim of the situations. And you are, you know, there are a lot of things that's happening to you and you'll be pulled, you know, towards many different directions. However, I think we have to be proactive rather than being reactive. So once you decide how you're going to do or how you're going to feel, then oftentimes that's the experience you're going to have. Yeah. Talk to me about small but certain happiness.

Wonderful chats from your book. And i think it's a very simple concept that i think everyone's going to resonate with thank you um i think oftentimes people imagine that they will finally you know feel happy and i can i'll be able to relax only when i achieve you know some monumental uh goals in my life, you know, such as maybe marrying somebody, you know, love of your life or, you know, buying your first home or getting promoted to the position that you really want. But while you are getting there, you also have to live your life. And it usually takes a long time to arrive at your goal. So I think it's important we look for what I would call small but certain happiness.

This is not my idea. This is an idea that many people propose. that many people propose. But I think it is so important to look for something that's going to for sure make you happy and then do it again and again and again. Yeah, there's so many nuggets of wisdom in this book, right? And just speaking to what you just said now, in that section on small but certain happiness, it's just so simple. You say this, for some, the fragrant smell of freshly made morning coffee is a time of peace and happiness.

While for others, it could be the warmth of the sun on their face, the sight of spring flowers, the feel of a cozy blanket on a chilly day, or simply spending time with their dog or cat after work. Now here's the thing, Heyman. A lot of people listening are experiencing those things every day, but many won't have put the spotlight of gratitude onto them. So let's say someone has got half an hour to get up and get ready for work and get the kids off to school or whatever it might be. They might make their morning coffee, rush and slurp it down whilst also getting things ready for work, right? So they've still had the experience of drinking freshly made morning coffee, but the intention behind it is very different.

Right, right. So it takes only 10 seconds. That is, wait, I'm just going to actually enjoy the smell of freshly made coffee, you know, this intentions. And then you pause a little bit and then you re-engage with the experience. And from that moment, you say, wow, this is happiness. You know, rather than searching for some, you know, big things in your life, big success to be happy. Maybe this is what I was after. I like the idea that it only takes 10 seconds, or even five seconds. Sure, you're in a rush in the morning.

Just take a simple pause, 30 seconds. Smell the coffee quite literally. Let it tickle your senses. Just that act, you're just starting to open up the door to appreciation, aren't you? There's also this lovely concept of appreciation versus ownership that you write about. If you view happiness as a matter of appreciation rather than ownership, many things you can't own, such as the sunlight in your room, the laughter of children, a loving embrace,

the colors of autumn foliage, a stunning sunset, the soothing sounds of music at night, the triumph of your favorite sports team. These things can bring happiness into your life. The important thing is whether you can slow down and appreciate life. I really like that. It's the same ideas that we've just been talking about, but it's a really peaceful concept. Think about the things that you can't own. That's really nice. It's a really nice place to put your focus on, I think. Yes. I think we need to shift our idea away from ownership to appreciations when you know, when it comes to happiness. There are lots and lots of things in our lives we cannot own, you know, even if we own something, but in the grand scheme of things, we are just temporarily, you know,

caretaking or guarding, you know, whatever that is. It can be very expensive, you know, paintings or, you know, whatever. So at the end, it's a matter of, you know, appreciations. Even if you have a really wonderful things, even if you own wonderful things, if you are not appreciating, then what's the point? Yeah. As you were talking then, I had a memory of when I was a child and every other summer we'd go to Kolkata in India for six weeks

because that's where my grandparents lived, all my family lived. And I can still remember, I think a lot about this these days actually, I can still remember landing in the airports, and then we'd be getting a taxi to my dad's family's house where my grandma lived. And it's such a culture shock, like the colours, the noises, the landscape was so different in India to what I'm used to here in the UK. And I always would remember

you'd be driving past what looked like slums and there were kids who clearly didn't have much, and I'm not at all romanticising that existence, but I always remember seeing families and kids squatting, like brushing their teeth around the drains and the roads, but smiling and kicking water from the wells to each other and just sheer delight on their faces. Again, I'm not romanticizing that existence, but I think it speaks to this idea that, hey, they didn't have much, but from what I could see, and that's just a limited view of their life, there seemed to be a real, I don't know, playfulness and appreciation of what was there in that moment? Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, when we are born into this world,

we are given, you know, many different type of experience. And whatever that experience may be, we are here to learn. And one of the important key lessons, I think, is whether we can appreciate what's in front of us. And if we can, then that's where happiness lies i think yeah the new book is called when things don't go your way it's it's a provocative title i really like it i guess most people believe or most people think it is a good thing when things do go their way. But one of the central cases you make in this book is that we don't always want things to go our way because when they don't go our way, there's real opportunity, isn't there?

Yes. And we don't know whether we'll be happy, you know, if everything goes away like the way we wanted. Like, for example, you know, somebody who just fall in love and imagine that if I get to marry that person, then I will be happy forever. And then actually this person get to marry and only after two, three years later, they are getting divorced. So you don't know just because things are going like the way you want it, this is going to bring happiness to you. We simply do not know. In Zen tradition, and this mind is called don't know mind, we have to just bring this don't know mind to all situations and having this open, you know, open mindset, you know. So rather than imagining, I already know what will happen and we should bring instead, you know, don't know mind.

I don't know whether it's going to bring me, you know me more opportunity or happiness, or we don't know whether it's going to bring disappointments, whatever that is, if we can just bring this mind of openness and appreciations, then we'll feel at the end, our life is actually full. We are having very enriching experience. I think that's a great example. If we meet the love of our life and we propose to them and they say, yes, we feel, yeah, that's what I wanted, that's going to be amazing. And a lot of the time it is. But if you look at current divorce rates, you'd have to say a lot of the time it isn't. But if we take that don't know mind approach, how does that actually work in real life? Let's say,

I don't know, let's say there's someone listening to this right now who has just got engaged and they're getting married this summer, right? So they're excited, you know, they've met someone, they've agreed to get married. How can they apply this idea of a don't know mind to their wedding because i guess the prevailing cultural view here at least would be this is amazing this is going to be the best day of my life i've met the love of my life so yeah just help us understand how you can apply that type of mindset to an exciting event well um when you are planning for your own wedding uh i'm sure you have some idea you know how it should go you know um however if you can just apply don't know mine you know even if some things are not going like the way you imagine, maybe the cake wasn't exactly the way you wanted, or the way people interact,

or the speech that your relatives or your best friends were making didn't quite gel well. But you still remain this idea of don't know mind. And in this mind of not knowing, you can relax, you know, rather than tightly trying to control everything. And then everything have to go like the way I want it. And, you know, screaming like a little kid if it doesn't, that's not going to make you happy. You know, I think there is openness and a new possibility when I don't know mine. And we can also relax. Yeah.

That wedding example is actually so good. Because I know many people who have got mega stressed about their weddings. And I understand it. I'm not judging it i i'm just observing it and sometimes we'll we'll literally get stressed over the tablecloth isn't the right color right the the napkins are not exactly how i'd imagined them and if we go back to what we were talking about before which which is about who are we, you know, it's that space where thought ends. It's about the non-identification with things, right? Not being so attached to things. You kind of really see it in that moment, don't you? Whereby

people grow up with an idea that my wedding day has to be this way. I don't know if it's the same in career or not, but here in the UK, I think many people grow up with the idea that this is how my wedding's going to be. This is what it's going to look like. This is the dress. This is how we're going to arrive. And hey, listen, we've all got desires and things that we would like to happen in certain ways. I guess you're saying the problem is, if you are dependent on that, if your happiness is conditional on those things happening,

you put yourself in a very, very weak position, don't you? Yes. Rather than trying to control everything, can you relax and actually enjoy? You know, things may go not exactly you had planned, but it doesn't mean that that experience is not going to be unhappy. You know, it can be just as wonderful, you know, unexpected, but still very wonderful. When we love something, you know, or someone, you know, we do bring this don't know

mind. That is, we don't know if this person likes this type of food or that kind of color, you know, what kind of music this person likes. When you are first dating, then this, there is moment of, you know, like wanting to know more, you know, because you are bringing this, I don't know yet, you know, there is a genuine sense of curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. But after, you know, being together for a couple of years or, you know, 10 years, you know, if you stop having don't know mine, that is, I know everything there is to know about this person. I know everything there is to know about my own child. Then what you do is instead of listening, you would just end up prescribing, you are supposed to do this, you are supposed to do that.

You are just keep on nagging them as opposed to really trying to understand what's happening to them. So I think, another word for love is don't know mine. Yeah. That may well be the number one problem with most relationships that we stop being curious. We change our mindset from when we were dating, when, as you say, we were looking to discover, to learn, to find out. But over time, I don't know if you'd call it laziness, but this kind of inertia can almost slip in where we make assumptions about our partner. We think that they're doing things because that's the way they've always done things and we expect them to behave in a certain way. I have this little exercise that I often do with my wife called

Starting With Zero. Oh, wow. What is that? And the idea is basically... What is that? And the idea is basically... This episode is brought to you by Airbnb. Now, I've been using Airbnbs for many years now for pleasure and for work. And last year, when I was in London for a few days of work, instead of staying in a hotel, I stayed in a wonderful Airbnb, which was centrally located and had a really nice kitchen, so I could start off each day with my own food, just the way I like it. I've also just booked an Airbnb for a work trip to Oxford, in which I

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If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. The big idea is that our past often haunts our present day relationships. Absolutely. And so I think I came up with maybe a year ago just this idea what would happen if I interacted with Vidnav, it's my wife, as if this was the first time I'd ever met her even though you know I've been married for over 15 years right what happens if I interact with her in the morning

she comes down to the kitchen I've been up for a bit as if it was the first time. And I tell you, you know, I should honestly do it more because when I do it, the knock-on effect is just profound. You're not making assumptions or judgments. You're literally taking someone for who they are in that moment. And you start to learn new things that you don't learn when you think you know it all already. That is so true. Yeah. I hope people can apply that exercise, you know, to their relationships. Whenever we think we know about something, it's all in the past.

You know, we are not actually knowing anything in the present moment. You know, anything that you know is something that already happened. The present moment, you cannot think about present moment. Right? If you think about something, it is something that already happened. You know? Of course. happen, you know? So this is the, you know, opening into your, this, you know, wonder, you know, this, if you want to have a wonder in your life, rather than assuming that you already

know, you know, bring this mindset of, I don't know yet, you know, let me just appreciate what's in front of me right now. I love that. That totally landed for me. Once you start thinking about it, it's already happened. Yes. You're not in the present moment anymore. That's so powerful. You cannot think about the present moment.

It's simply impossible. Yeah. Okay, in terms of practical guidance for people so far, we mentioned the body scan, we've mentioned gratitude. I shared this starting with zero exercise that you seem to really like, so hopefully people will give that a go. You also write in the book about three tips for a better life the first one of those tips is don't ask what others have said about you great tip can you explain why you recommend that um um when we are young you know we tend to think about uh we are so, you know, we tend to think about, we are so concerned about how other peoples are saying things about me,

you know, but as we get older and older and we become wiser, that is, they don't really, you know, think about me that much, you know, because I don't think about them, you know,

that often, even if I do, it's not for a long period of time. We just tend to just assume that everybody is looking at me and judging me and think about how, you know, my clothing is not good or the way I talk is not good or whatever. But that's not true, you know. Essentially, you know, we really do not know about other people other than our own experience. So what happened is that when we try to understand other people,

we bring our own experience onto that. So when people are talking about, you know, me, they are essentially talking about themselves because that particular part, you know, what they have witnessed, it resonates with them, you know, their own experience. And thereby, they want to talk about that particular aspect of you. So although it sounds as though they are talking about them, you know, it often, if you actually listen, they are talking about themselves. So I, rather than, you know,

caring so much about what other peoples are saying about you, just get in touch with your own intention. You know, first in Buddhism, are saying about you, just get in touch with your own intention. You know, first in Buddhism, we call the beginner's mind, you know, remember why you got into this, you know, professions, you know, why you are doing things, you know, in the first place, because as you are working, I'm sure there will be a lot of criticism. A lot of people will say, this is not right and that is not right. But in so far as, you know, helping others, you know, serving other people, I'm sure that's where the meaning of our lives arise. So if you can just get in touch with that, I am doing things to help other people.

And certainly there will be other people's may, you know, misconstrue. Yeah. Yeah. However, you know, insofar as your intention is still pure, then I think you can just, you know, continue to do your work. Yeah. What I really like about that tip, because it really, really resonated. And I think the reason is in the past, I very much would have wanted to know what other people were saying about me. If I heard something at work or something, I'd want, well, who said what? Who said that? Did they understand this? And until I read that yesterday

in your book, I hadn't realized how much that had changed for me. It's this idea, isn't it, that what other people think of you is none of your business. They're entitled to think whatever they want to. And I think the key for that is not don't care about what others have said about you. You say, don't even ask, right? I love that. Don't even ask. You don't even need to know. Why do you need to know? I reckon there's so many people will be listening to that will go, I always want to know what people are saying, who said what, but how does that even help you? It just gets you dragged down into this negative mindset. You've just got to act as much as you can in accordance with your values. And if you do that, how other people interpret it, it's kind of up to them, isn't it?

Right. And we have no control over how other people think of us, what they are saying about us. We have no control. Well, that speaks to the third one there, three tips for a better life. I've just mentioned the first one. The third one in those three is let go of things outside your control. Why is that so important for people? I think we assume that somehow we can control other people's, you know, how they think, especially, you know, how they think about ourselves. But we cannot.

Simply recognizing the impossibility of controlling other people that frees us from all the psychological stress and struggle that we are feeling. In English, we have a term called people pleasing. And I think that very much speaks to this idea. I think the underlying energy behind people pleasing is often, I'm trying to control what other people think of me. I'm trying to behave in certain ways so that people like me, they accept me. And we have a desire as humans for that connection. We want other people to like us, but I guess people pleasers or excessive people pleasers, actually, it is a form of control. You're trying to control what other people think of you. And it comes at a huge of control you're trying to control what other people think of you and it comes at a huge cost because you're no longer being yourself in order to be liked by

others right and you are neglecting your own needs your own you know desire at the same time so um i would say that uh rather than trying to um you know earn other people's positive opinions of you, see if you can first become a validator. We look for outside validations. However, if you can just be your own validator, that is to write it down, all the wonderful things that you have done for the last, I don't know, like several years, then actually celebrate your own achievement. So that sounds like another practical tip for people, right? Because we are living in a time when many people are struggling with happiness.

They're struggling with their moods. They're struggling with the state of the world, as you say, things outside their control a lot of the time. And we mentioned quite a few practical things that people can do, but this one sounds like a new one. It's kind of like gratitude, but it's gratitude for yourself.

Is that a fair way to describe it? Yes. And celebrate your own achievement. We tend to just downgrade what we have done and imagining that, oh, this was nothing, of being just humble or just we took it for granted. However, if we can say, hey, let's imagine myself five years ago or ten years ago you know if i you know had known that i would have achieved this amount of you know things for the next 10 years then i'm sure my younger self wouldn't wouldn't have believed you know what i said um so that could be something we

text ourselves each day as well couldn't say we could send ourselves a message so when we're feeling down or we feel that we're worthless and we've got nothing to contribute, actually, you can look at that list and go, oh, you know, I made sure my friend was okay when he was struggling. I went around and brought my neighbor some shopping when they broke their leg and they couldn't get out. Whatever it might be, you're putting those deposits in the bank of saying, no, I am someone who's worthy. I am someone who actually is contributing to this world. I've seen so many patients over the years who really, really struggle with their mood, with things like depression and anxiety. And a lot of the time they become really me focused they're stuck in their own heads

yes yeah can we maybe speak to that yes you know when we think less about ourselves that's when we've become uh happier yeah that's another important lesson, I think. If we are trying very hard to make ourselves happy, then there is no guarantee that we will be happy. However, if you are making other people happy, then you'll be sure to be happier. This is like beautiful Buddhist teaching by Shantideva. And I think we should remember that just by trying to make myself happy, we think this is going to bring me happiness. Yes, it is important to do self-care,

but at the same time, we also have to remember we live in this interconnected web of reality. So when my, you know, child or my mother, you know, my wife is happy, then of course it's going to influence my own happiness yeah and if we are uh like like for example you know i do um volunteer work you know for the uh you know homeless people in korea you know when i do that uh there's a feeling of you know meaning in my life you know when i do that it generally becomes a lot happier after two three hours of you know volunteer work so connection is another key you know ingredient for happiness when we feel connected to nature when we feel connected

to another human being that's when we feel happy yeah i know for me sometimes if I'm not having the best day and I go to the local supermarket, I can feel amazing afterwards. I'm a very chatty person. So if I'm at the supermarket, I'll be chatting to the people who work there and the cashier and things. And it's amazing, just five minutes of interaction with people who you don't know well, right? They're not like your close friends or your family, but you might see them from time to time. On the way walking home or on the way up to my car in the car park, I feel like I've had this real boost to feel good. And that's how simple improving our mental well-being can be from time to time, can't it?

You can't do it if you're stuck at home in your own head, just scrolling the lives of other people on social media. You have to get in the real world and interact with someone else, no matter how small. It is incredible what kind of impact that has on the way that we feel, isn't it? Yes, it will get you out of your own, you know, self-obsessive, you know, thinking mind as we move away from me, me, me, me, and then actually pay attention to people around us and making this micro connections here and

there. This will just remind us how connected we are to the world. And when we feel the connection, we become happier. You mentioned, I think, a really key point, which is we're looking for that sweet spot. We're not looking to neglect our own needs and do everything for everyone else at the expense of ourself. Nor are we trying to go to the other extreme where everything is me focused. I don't care about anyone else as long as I'm meditating and I'm walking and I'm doing what I need to do for me. And I think that is a sweet spot that many people struggle to find. Do you have any tips on how they can get the right balance between self-care and doing things for others? the right balance between self-care and doing things for others?

Again, I will check with my body. When I feel extremely tired helping other people, then it is time for me to take care of my body, myself. So it's important to just turning in and feel how your body is feeling at that moment. Yeah, that speaks to me about the importance of solitude. And solitude is something I talk a lot about and I write a lot about because I feel very strongly that in this modern 21st century world where many stroke most people feel chronically stressed and overloaded and they don't feel they have time to do all the things that they want to

do for themselves, I feel that a daily practice of solitude is probably the most valuable thing they can invest in. Because it's that time by yourself, whether it's to do a body scan or to write down three things you're grateful for, whatever it might be, it's time where you can actually nourish yourself and actually reflect on your life and know if you have to make changes or not. Now, you write about solitude in this new book And you specifically say this, one who knows how to enjoy time by themselves without depending on others is a free person. Having a lot of time does not in and of itself make a person free. So can you speak to that? Can you speak to the importance of solitude and why so many people struggle to be okay just with themselves and why it's so important that we

cultivate that skill i often go out to my local park and without bringing my cell phone yeah you know it's just yeah giving myself maybe 30 minutes or, you know, one hour just alone, you know, without being constantly connected to, you know, other people. This gives us a sense of, you know, peace and also, you know, connection to nature. feeling you know nature and also you know how my body is feeling and then witnessing beauty of nature the sound of birds you know the trees and flowers and all of that it kind of restore our sense of balance you know it restore um what it means to be me is that the nature doing it or is it the time alone or is it both? I think it's both, you know, they have such a powerful restorative, you know, power just being alone, but at the same time out in nature. Oftentimes we think about something and this stressed us out. However, if we are outside, it feels like your thought is still there,

but it's like a little. You feel like in this great context of amazing nature, it's just a little thing. As opposed to if you're sitting in front of your desk, in front of your computer, and just ruminating about this stressful event that you have to think about, then it feels like that is a huge, you know, something that you cannot overcome. So I think it's very important that we can just spend some time alone in nature.

You've been a practicing Buddhist monk for over two decades, I think 25 years. Are there some common practices that you recommend time and time again to people, like practices that have stood the test of time and always make a difference, no matter whether someone lives in Korea, the UK or America? And if so, what are they? In my new book, I talk about the importance of having your own sacred space. You might be living in a huge city like in London or Manchester or New York. But if you can find a little corner, a little know, of your, I don't know, favorite bookshop or coffee shop or under the tree, your favorite tree in a public park or church or mosque

or in a temple. Somewhere you feel like relaxed and can enjoy the moment. Or in front of your favorite painting in your local museum. If you can just find those spots and go there again and again, and that place becomes your sacred space. So although the city that you live, you may feel this is kind of impersonal and overwhelming, but by having those sacred space, personalize your daily experience and you actually enjoy being alone in that space. Is it important that that space is outside the place where you live

or could it be a particular room in your house or your apartment? You know, because just trying to broaden it out, if someone feels that they can't get out, can you also get that relaxation and restoration in your place of residence? I think it's possible. You just create in a special corner. If you are a meditator, for example, you can just make it one corner in your room and this is where I'm going to sit and meditate. But at the same time, I think it's nice to have somewhere, not exactly your workspace, but also not exactly your home.

Somewhere in between and where you can go and just be yourself and just relax. This can be another thing we can all do. Yeah. You mentioned earlier that we're all interconnected. And that seems to be a theme that often comes up in Buddhist philosophy, the interconnected nature of all of us and life. What does that actually mean though, when you say that everything's connected? What does that actually mean though, when you say that everything's connected? One of the reasons why we are unhappy is because we feel sometimes we are isolated

and we are not connected to other people and nobody seems to really care about me. And therefore, you know, what's the value of myself, you know? And, but if you actually see yourself, the world and what we call I, you know, appear always at the same time. I have never existed independently apart from the world. Even right now, you know, like, you know, what I call Hyemin, maybe people will imagine, you know, along the skin line, he exists. But this other space around me or you or, you know, this amazing studio, you know,

it's all appear at the same time. So inherently we are already connected, you know. However, when we just end up thinking about stuff all the time and conceptualize everything and see the whole world, you know, through the eyes of thinking mind, then it feels as though the whole world is separated. I can somehow exist apart from the rest of the world. But that is not the case. We pay so much attention to the language.

And once we have those words, like, for example, you know, the cup here, then it seems as though the cup exists inherently, independently, you know, apart from the rest of the world. But we have to remind ourselves, the language cup, the word, it is something that we gave artificially. We made it up. Yeah, it didn't exist. However, since the language is being so powerful and see things through the lens of language,

we just separate by assigning words, different nouns to different things and imagine those nouns actually exist by themselves yeah but that's not true yeah i love that reminds me of what i used to do my kids when they were a bit younger if we were by the water, like the ocean, I'd say, what colour is it? And often they say blue. So is the ocean blue? And initially it would be like, yeah, it's blue. I said, well, hold on a minute. Is it the ocean that's blue? And essentially we got together to the point that, no, there is water there and we are seeing it as blue right now but another animal like a fish for example might see it completely differently so it's not

inherently blue you know and you could even go i'm labeling it an ocean it's not even an ocean i'm labeling it water you know you could even go all the way with that, can't you? Right. There's a sunlight, you know, unless there's a sunlight, we will not be able to see the color of blue. Right. Yeah. So also, you know, the fact that there's no cloud, maybe like there are a lot of, you know, elements that gives rise to the experience of blue oceans it's not one ocean is you know in and of himself uh in other words we are interconnected and when we have this experience of this truth of interconnectedness that's when we feel happy. If someone's listening and they go, I don't buy that. Things are not interconnected. I am just me. Someone else is someone else. That

is a cup, right? If they're not following that or they don't agree, what is the consequence of living a life where you do not believe that everything is connected then you might live very lonely life or a fearful life i think you know we can have two different kind of worldview yeah the first worldview is that the world outside is actually uncaring and cold. It's my own hard effort that's only going to bring me success. Nobody's going to care about me and nobody's going to help me. And thereby thereby I just have to work really diligently and I can become successful. I can take good care of my family, you know. That's one view. And another view is believing that the universe outside is caring, benevolent. And if you pray,

benevolent and and if you pray for example you know for something then the universe will try hard to deliver what you asked you know this is another you know worldview there are two kinds of worldview and you can decide you know what kind of universe you want to live in. If you decide that world is uncaring and I live, you know, independently and isolated and nobody's going to help me, yeah? Then oftentimes you will experience that because whatever you project out onto the universe, that's what you're going to receive.

And whereas the other one who believes in the connectedness and other people will come to help me as I'm helping other people, then they will experience, you know, a lot of gratitude, a lot of connections. And this is also choice, you know, if you can have the faith in the universe that, you know, I don't have a job now, but I'm sure, as I'm putting a lot of effort right now, the universe will deliver, you know, the job that I, you know, seeking. Or, you know, maybe my friends became very successful,

but instead of feeling jealous, you know, I have trust in the universe that i will have my own version of success my success will be quite different from my friends thereby i don't need to feel jealous did you find when you went to america that potentially some aspects of the american dream fall into that first worldview whereby it's all on me. I don't need anyone else. You know, I get that most things have upsides and downsides. So one of the upsides of the American dream, as I understand it, is that anyone can achieve anything, if you put the work in, your diligence, your practice, you can get to where you need to get to.

But that can go, that can be taken to an extreme where we don't care about anyone, all we think about is ourself. We've become very individualistic. And I definitely think that cultures like America and the UK and many other countries have become much more individualistic and are adopting that worldview, which I think is problematic. So I'm interested, I guess, number one, did you see that worldview when you went to America? Is it also the worldview that's in Korea or is Korea a little bit different? But also, do you think this is one of the reasons why burnout is on the rise because it is so many people feel chronically overloaded and burnt out and i wonder if burnout is a natural consequence of having that first world view rather than that second one

yeah i think you know, if you are heavily believe in self-reliance, thinking that I have to take care of myself and I should not, you know, bother other people, then even if you are having a hard time at work, you don't know how to ask, you know, could you please help me, you know, with this, you know, or you don't know how to ask your, even on your children, you know, can you come and, you know, help me buy, you know,

grocery or something, you know? So overly, like, self-reliance tendency can create burnout, I do believe. But I think it takes a little bit of vulnerability maybe to ask, I need some help. I am in trouble. Could you please some help? And more often, people are willing to help you. Just that you didn't ask. You'll find that people actually care about you.

Just overly self-reliance, this idea that I have to take good care of myself without relying on other people. I think there's a merit to that. But in reality, we are interdependent beings. We need each other. So when we can ask other people's help, sure enough, we will also have opportunity to help them. So, yeah. Yeah.

One of the other lines that resonated with me in your new book was this one. If you can control your ambition, you won't overextend yourself. If you do not overextend, you will not harm your health. If your health is good, your mind becomes balanced easily.

If your mind is balanced, you will find happiness in little things. It's this beautiful loop where everything feeds each other. But that first bit I think is key. If you can control your ambition, you won't overextend yourself. We've just been talking about burnout. and often burnout comes as a consequence of unchecked ambition how do you control your ambition people tend to have this imagination that once i achieve such and such then my you know life will have worth. I will be worthy. But investigate where that feeling of lack, feeling of insufficiency is coming from.

You imagine that it is the outside achievement is going to make you feel that you are finally worthy. But maybe it is, you know, unloved and uncared past experience, you know, while growing up. Maybe that is like, you know, a little child within you. It is still asking you to pay attention to me more, you know? So rather than zeroing on, it's just outside goals to make you feel like finally, maybe I am somebody, you know? You can just go directly to the source, you know? What is the very force that keeps on making me work, I don't know, like, you know, 80 hours or 100 hours a week, you know, while not spending any time at all with my family, you know, or close friends, you know.

So I think it's important to check your own ambitions and see people around you, you know, and if you are maintaining, you know, harmonious relationship with them. Because at the end, you want to be happy together. You know, you don't want to be just happy by yourself and while other people's feeling miserable. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah when i was researching your own story one of the things that resonated with me the most was something that i also discovered early on in my career as a doctor which was the power of

listening and you tell the story I've heard you tell the story that when you were a monk, suddenly people would come up to you and ask you all kinds of things afterwards that you didn't feel equipped to answer, but you learned a powerful lesson, didn't you? Yes. Could you share that?

I think it's so powerful and I think it's so applicable to all of us i think most people they just want to be heard and they want somebody to their to witness you know what's happening in their lives and especially if the person is listening with sense of empathy then you will feel a lot better afterwards. You know, you realize that you are not alone, you know, going through this very challenging, you know, experience in your life.

And also, people already know the answer to their problem. It's just that in their head, it's disorganized and you are not actually asking the right questions. And therefore, you think you don't know the answers. But as you are listening to what they have to say, as you are untangle your what's happened, and you beginning to really see the answer that you've been seeking was right in front of you. Yeah. I think that's one of the most powerful realizations I've had in my own career.

And I mean, I won't tell the story again because I've told it before on this podcast. But in my very first week as a GP, I learned that lesson. When I didn't really know exactly what to do with a patient. So I just listened attentively and would see the patient back every week. And she got better. Because as you said, she knew the answers, but what she didn't have in her life was someone who she could talk to and open up to and they weren't going to judge her. And I think you said also, you've mentioned it, you wrote about it in the book, how sometimes that's the role a therapist will play, where people can actually speak, get in touch with their emotions, express them without fear of judgment

or being cut off. And you often find those answers yourself. I think it also speaks to this idea that one of the central ideas in your work in Buddhist philosophy that all the answers are within. The happiness is already there. We're not looking for it outside.

We just need to get out of its way. And relax into it. And relax into it. But of course, that's difficult for people when they're feeling rushed all the time and stressed all the time. And, you know, you literally see the world differently when you're rushing. You covered that in one of your previous books, didn't you? Right. You know, people love the title, you know, Things You Can See Only When You Slow Down, you know.

Great title. Yeah. I think we need to just take a, you know, periodically pause and see if you can slow down and when we are slowing down then we can actually see and appreciate our life that is quickly passing in front of us yeah yeah that's what i think a lot of these practices do a gratitude practice or a body scan or just taking 10, 15 seconds to smell that fresh tea or that fresh coffee and let the aroma go into you and surround you. I think one of the things it does, if you're leading a busy life, is number one, it forces you to slow down. But number two, to slow down, but number two, it reminds you what the feeling of slow feels like.

And then once you tune into that and go, oh, it's nice not to rush this coffee and just sit there, that feeling, when you do it regularly, starts to follow you around in other parts of your day. That's certainly what I found in my own life. And I'm now at the point where, let's say on a Sunday, I'll sometimes intentionally in the morning go, okay, today's going to be a slow day. Today's a slow day. Everything is going to be done with the energy of slowness, including when you're driving somewhere, like not rushing, just taking your time in the car. And what I like about it, the more I've done it, the more I have learned when I have a tendency to rush. So you start to develop that inner awareness of, oh, I'm rushing here. Oh, I wanted this to be a slow day, but I did rush then, or I left a bit late to get my daughter to her netball game or whatever, right? And again, it's all about awareness

because the more you do it, the more you realize, actually, most of the time, I really don't need to rush. I just don't. So that slowness, I think it almost becomes addictive because it feels so good. Yeah, and you can, you know, you can enjoy the process. As we are doing things slowly, you can enjoy the driving, you know?

Yeah. You can enjoy, you know, having conversation with your daughter. You know, you can enjoy arriving at that place and maybe, you know, saying hi to other parents. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, I'm sure many people do. When I was like 18, 19, 20, 21, I was always in a rush when driving to get somewhere. I was always rushing around. I can only see it now with such

clarity because I don't so much anymore. And life becomes much more enjoyable when you don't rush all the time. But again, I want to make it practical. So for that person who feels stressed out and rushing, even these little pockets or a five minute body scan in the time. But again, I want to make it practical. So for that person who feels stressed out and rushing, even these little pockets or a five minute body scan in the morning. Also, you know, instead of checking in, looking at your smartphone, see if you can leave your home five minutes earlier. That is when you have to go to work and having that extra five minutes can have a huge impact. You know, the maybe commuting time can be one hour or maybe 45 minutes. Having extra five minutes, you can feel as though you can slow down. You can actually relax. You don't have to rush so much. So rather than spending, you know,

mindlessly looking at your email in the morning or checking news, see if you can leave a little bit earlier and give yourself a breathing space. And that will allow you to slow down more. Yeah. Love that. The final thing I wanted to bring up with you, Heyman, is I guess a central idea in the book, when things don't go your way. You mentioned before about these two different worldviews we can adopt and that it is a choice to decide which worldview you're going to adopt. to decide which worldview you're going to adopt.

I very much feel the idea when I think about the title, When Things Don't Go Your Way, you have a choice in life, how you react to that. You could take what is often called the victim mindset, right? Which is, I can't believe it happened that way. It always happens to me like that. I can't believe things don't go my way, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, which I used to have, right? So this ain't no criticism on anyone. I used to have that, but I don't have it anymore. So you can change it and you can choose a different mindset consciously initially, and then it becomes unconscious. Whereas the natural state then becomes, what's the upside of the situation? What can I learn here? And it's something I'm

very much as a parent try and teach my kids when things aren't going their way, have done for years, it's like, okay, well, what's the upside here? What can you learn from this situation? I wish I'd learned that as a kid. I didn't. I've learned it as an adult. But would you agree with that, that central to this message is choice? Central to your message in this book is this idea that, listen, things are always going to happen that you don't predict, you don't plan, and perhaps you don't want. But it fundamentally comes down to your choice in how you interpret that that will determine its outcome. Do you agree with that? Is there anything you want to add to that? And is that fair to say? I think that's very fair to say. The life experience is kind of raw data.

the life experience is kind of raw data. It doesn't tell you how to interpret it. It's our job to make that interpretations. And you can say that, oh, that experience was just horrible. I feel like I'm the victim of the situations. Then that's where you're going to end. That's what the experience is going to offer you.

But on the other hand, you interpret that as, oh, that was my opportunity to grow and to learn about deeper truth about myself. And also maybe next time when I have a similar opportunity, I will do it in a different way. And so that I can, you know, do better, you know? So it's your, you know, interpretation and your choice. Rather than feeling like, you know, everything is right, you know, controlling me. The environment is controlling me.

People are controlling me. All this responsibility is making me feel very unhappy. Make a choice, you know, in spite of all of this, you know, I will choose to, you know, connect with my own intentions, you know, the reason why I'm here on earth. I want to serve other people and when I feel connected, then I feel a sense of meaning and I feel happy. So make that choice. Don't feel reactive. Become proactive.

Yeah, I love that. A situation where many people struggle that I think relates to this is forgiveness and letting go of perceived negative events in the past. I talk about forgiveness a lot because I genuinely do believe it is a skill that we can all cultivate and get better at. You also write about forgiveness in the latest book. What does the concept of forgiveness mean to you? And why do you think people struggle with it so much? When we understood the person or the situation, then we can forgive.

We can forgive. We cannot forgive the person or the situation because we don't understand. So rather than just jumping into conclusion, that person was evil, that person was just horrible, try to understand what kind of life experience that person had that led them to behave in such a way. Yeah. So, and you might say, well, I don't want to even think about, you know, what kind of life experience that person had. But if you actually can say, yes, I honor my own pain, my own suffering, and I do express all this feeling that I had, after experiencing that, if you can have a little space in your heart, try to understand those people who gave you a really difficult time. Those people who gave you really difficult time, I'm sure those people were not happy, at least at that moment. Or while they were growing up, they had lots of unfortunate events that happened in their lives.

And thereby, they inflict pain onto other people. So once we begin to see how others are behaving because of their past painful experience, then our heart becomes softer. We don't say that all those things they've done, they have done to me is okay. We're not saying that's okay. Yeah. However, you will feel that your heart is softer.

Yeah. More willing to accept. And as we understood the situation, then we can slowly release it. Yeah, thank you. You had the great fortune of spending some time with the great Thich Nhat Hanh. Could you share some of the key things you learned from him with us? I loved his walking meditations.

He said, walk as though your feet are, you know, kissing the earth. To me, that teaching was such a powerful, you know, one. And because we often just think about, I get to, I have to arrive at certain place and without paying attention to actual process of walking itself. And instead, can you just say, I'm going to enjoy my walking, you know, I'm going to kiss the earth as I am, you know, taking my step. I think that's a really wonderful way to start our day. Very mindful, very present, very evocative thought, kissing the earth as you walk. Hey man, I'm a huge fan of your work last time we spoke was about five

years ago love the new book i think there's so much wisdom in there for people that's really going to help them to finish off a lot of people are struggling in the world at the moment for a variety of different reasons if someone's listening to you now and they're going through hard times things are not going the way that they want what are your final words to them don't jump into quick conclusion that just because things are not going like the way you want it, it is bad. Have open mind. You never know what kind of opportunities, different experience you might enjoy or you

feel later super grateful. A friend of mine, you know, he wrote a book. And while he was writing, you know, he was asking me, do you think this book will become a bestseller? You know, interestingly, you know, his book didn't do well in terms of, you know, sales of the book. However, one of the readers of that book now became his wife. The reader actually sent a quick message to him

how much she appreciated his book. And they decided to have a coffee together. And one thing led to another. They met and they started dating and now they are married and now they have a beautiful daughter. So you don't know how the life is going to be turned out. You might imagine that you know

what kind of happiness you want to have, but in the end, you know, the universe may award you with different type of, you know, happiness. Yeah. And still valid and still wonderful. Yeah, I love that. Thank you.

What a wonderful story. You're doing fantastic work. I love the book. Thank you for making the journey to the studio. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you. thank you for making the journey to the studio I appreciate it thank you so much thank you

really hope you enjoyed that conversation do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life and also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else remember Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness.

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