Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - BITESIZE | How to Make New Habits Stick & Why You Can’t Break Old Habits | Charles Duhigg #521

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

Are you constantly trying to create better habits and quit those that don’t serve you?  Feel Better Live More Bitesize is my weekly podcast for your mind, body, and heart. Each week I’ll be featuring inspirational stories and practical tips from some of my former guests. Today’s clip is from episode 436 of the podcast with Pulitzer Prize winner and author of international bestselling book, The Power of Habit - Charles Duhigg. We can all make short-term changes, but so many of us struggle to make our new desired behaviours last. In this clip, we discuss the science of small wins, the power of momentum and the importance of keystone habits. This conversation is packed with practical tips to help you build better habits. Thanks to our sponsor https://www.drinkag1.com/livemore Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com Show notes and the full podcast are available at drchatterjee.com/436 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

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with your first order. See all details at www.drinkag1.com forward slash live more. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More Byte Size, your weekly dose of positivity and optimism to get you ready for the weekend. Today's clip is from episode 436 of the podcast with Charles Duhigg, author of the international bestseller, The Power of Habit. We can all make short-term changes, but so many of us struggle to make our new desired behaviours last. In this clip, we discuss the science of small wins, the power of momentum, and the importance of keystone habits.

You can't extinguish a bad habit because those neural pathways stay in play. That's really, really interesting. Yeah. Let's use sugar or chocolate. Let's stay on those because I think they're, they're so common, particularly in my world. You feel a bit low, you get your favorite chocolate bar, you get a big reward, don't you? You feel high, you feel good, you've

self-soothed, right? So that's the reward. It's quite tricky to change that though, isn't it? Because once you've locked that in, it's quite hard to change it. So what's interesting there is you're craving the self-soothing, right? And once we do the experiments, we figure out what I'm actually craving. What's the reward that my brain wants? So, and for anyone, you know this, but for anyone who's listening, who hasn't been exposed to some of these ideas, one of the things that we've learned is that every habit has three components. There's a cue, which is like a trigger for this automatic behavior, and then the behavior itself, and then a reward.

Every habit that exists in our life has a reward, whether we're aware of it or not. And once we know that it's self-soothing, as opposed to the taste of chocolate or the buzz that chocolate gives me, then at that point, it's a question of what else also delivers self-soothing. So you, I mentioned some before, calling a friend.

Calling a friend oftentimes is one of the greatest sources of self-soothing. And so it's worth at that moment saying, instead of picking up the chocolate bar, I'm going to self-soothe, because I know that I'm craving that right now by calling a friend. Now it might be for someone else

that actually the taste of the chocolate is what they really, really enjoy, in which case we should experiment and they should have a piece of apple, right? That's also sweet to see in a healthier, to see if that satisfies the craving that they're feeling. There's actually some experiments done where they gave people Splenda

and they told them just to rub it on their tongue. And they found that people who crave taste sensations, sugary taste sensations, this will basically satisfy that craving. Wow. And so the thing is to figure out what is actually driving the behavior. For me, when I was writing Power of Habit,

I had this bad habit where every afternoon I'd go eat a cookie in the cafeteria of the New York Times where I worked at the time. And I couldn't figure out why. And I talked to these researchers and they said, well, you know, let's look for the queue, right? Like, tell me about when this happens. And I was like, oh, it's usually between 3.15 and 3.45.

And they were like, sounds like a time of day is probably your queue. And then we know the behavior. You go up to the 14th floor, you buy a cookie, you eat the cookie. And what happens then? And I said, well, usually I'll like go over and like, I'll, you know, I see some friends

and I'll sit down and I'll kind of gossip with them for a little bit and I'll eat the cookie. And they said, okay, the reward might be the cookie. It might be sugar. It might be the just taking a break from work, but it might also be those friends. So next time you do this at 3.45, whenever you feel the urge, stand up, look for someone

to go gossip with without going up to the cafeteria. Go gossip with them for 15 minutes and then come back to your desk and see if you're still craving that cookie. And the answer was no. The reward for me was this social experience. The cookie was an excuse. Yeah. I love that.

I love that example so much because I honestly believe, I'm not saying this is easy, but I think we're making these things often a lot harder than they need to be. We always think it's the chocolate. Well, what if it isn't? What if it's something else you're getting? You know, as you say that the social connection, what if it's the act of going to a cafe, interacting with the person and saying hi. Maybe there's someone you like in the cafe who actually, you know what? Yeah. You tell yourself a story, you're going there for the crisps or the chocolate. But maybe it's just because

you're a bit bored at your desk and you like the social interaction. Or maybe it's just, you need a break from work, right? The 345 comes along and you're feeling a little bit low. So like maybe taking a walk around the block does the same thing. And again, this is why experiments are so important is because if you come up with a list of potential rewards that are alternatives and you experiment with them, you're gonna figure out what's actually driving

your behavior. When we're in the grip of a habit, our brain actually powers down, right? This is why habits exist is because every animal on earth has a part of the brain known as the basal ganglia that exists essentially to make habits. And it's because if you don't have habits, you have to decide every time you pass an apple or a rock,

which one you ought to eat, right? You have to think about how you walk. So our brain developed the system where when we're in the grip of a habit, we can make a behavior automatic without having to think about it the entire time, which means we can think about other things. We can dream up how to build fire or forts or video games.

Yeah. But when our brain turns off in the grip of a habit, we tend to stop paying attention to the cues and the rewards, right? We don't notice, oh, I want ice cream right now because I'm stressed. Some part of us knows, but it's very easy to ignore

that voice. Very easy. And when you pull it into the forefront of your brain, when you make yourself start thinking about it again, and someone says, oh, my cue is stress. I usually turn to sugar. Sugar actually does not solve this problem for me. It's a crutch, but there's another behavior that would be healthier

and provide the same reward, then all of a sudden change becomes so much easier. And it doesn't mean that change is easy, but it means change is easier. Now, so this is for changing behaviors. The other question often is how do we create a new habit? And in that case, it's very similar, but a little bit different in that

we need to choose a cue, right? So that case, it's very similar, but a little bit different in that we need to choose a cue. So for me, it was running. I was never athletic before I started writing the power of habit. And I really wanted to get in better shape. And so my goal was I was gonna run a half marathon. So I needed to choose a cue. So what I would do is I'd put my running shoes

next to my bed. So I saw them as soon as I woke up and that became a cue for me. And I would run before work. So that's a visual cue. I was using a visual cue also time of day. Also I would lay out my clothes so it was very easy to get into my running clothes. And it's good to have more than one cue.

One of them is really going to be the powerful one, but you don't know ahead of time what it might be. Oh, so you're, I like that. So you're peppering in a few cues to see one of these is going to stick. One of these is going to stick. One of these is going to stick. And it turns out it was the shoes. Like when I'm traveling, if I put my shoes next, my running shoes next to my bed, that gets me just, that gets me going. Like, and then I needed to choose a reward

for myself. So instead I didn't run every day. Instead, I only ran on days when my wife was going to bring the kids to school that day. So that I knew that when I got home from the run, I could take a nice long shower. I could have a nice smoothie with breakfast. So, did you intentionally think about the shower and smoothie as rewards? Absolutely. So, it wasn't just, oh, I'm sweaty after the run. I need to shower. It's like, I'm going to be sweaty and I'm going to really enjoy that shower. I'm going to take, I'm going to give myself an extra three minutes. Like normally I'd rush through the shower. I'm going to let sweaty and I'm going to really enjoy that shower. I'm going to take, I'm going to give myself an extra three minutes.

Like normally I'd rush through the shower. I'm going to let myself enjoy the shower. And this really makes a difference, doesn't it? Makes a huge difference. Cause if we decide something is rewarding, it becomes more rewarding. You can think of stress a little bit like this, can't you? You know, it's how we perceive things that often determine whether they're stressful or not.

We perceive it as stressful. It is. If we don't, a lot of the time it ain't. No, that's exactly, and if you think about it, like you and I and our children, they did not, they were not born thinking that getting an Aon report card is something they should feel good about, right? They only feel good about it because we've told them,

you should feel really good about this. We constantly tell ourselves what we should find rewarding. And when we grab ahold of that and we take the power for ourself. Now here's the one other thing with starting a new habit. So the first day that I woke up, I saw my shoes next to my bed, never run before. I put on my clothes, I walked outside

and I walked for one block and I came back. And then I took the nice long shower. And then the next day I walked like two blocks. And after a while you get to this point where you're like, okay, I'm walking a couple of blocks. I might as well like jog a couple of blocks and I might as well run, you know, like half a mile. There's this thing known as the science of small wins.

And oftentimes the way that we change is nonlinear, right? We find something that's unexpected that makes it easier for us to change. We find a reward that we didn't anticipate. It's these little experiments. And when we see change as a series of shifts and it's okay for those shifts to be small, then what we're doing is we're freeing ourselves

to learn from ourselves, to learn from our patterns. And so that's how I ended up running a half marathon. And then a marathon was literally just by taking it as these small little incremental improvements. Well, first of all, congratulations. Thank you. Wonderful achievements. I love this idea about small wins.

It's really interesting. I have found through years of clinical practice that the best way to help a patient turn a new behavior into a long term habit is to start small. I've just seen it through trial and error. I thought when they make it really big, it kind of happens for two or three weeks and then it falls off. Whereas when I start small and once I honestly made a trade with a patient, I say a trade, an agreement that she would meditate for one minute a day. And that one minute became five,

it became 10, it became 15 over a course of four to six weeks. Because initially she was like, I don't have time. I said, okay, do you have 10 minutes? No. Said, do you have five minutes? Well, no. Do you have one minute? Yeah, I've got one minute. I said, all right, okay, let's start there. And it was only when I met Professor BJ Fogg and he shared with me some of the science on small wins. And we had this this awesome aha moment where we both figured out that he'd come to that conclusion from the clinical research. I came to that conclusion from real life clinical practice and trying to figure out what works. But these small changes, when done consistently, they help to build momentum.

That's exactly right. And so I wonder from your perspective, what is momentum? Is there any science behind momentum? Cause it feels to be this really powerful energetic force that if we can harness it, it kind of moves us in the right direction. And here's how I think about it. I think of it as we are convincing ourselves

to believe in another version of ourself. So there's this idea known as Keystone habits, that some habits are more powerful than others because when we build a new habit, it triggers a bunch of other changes in our life. For some people, exercise is a great example, right? And probably everyone who's listening has had this experience.

You exercise in the morning, and for some reason, you also eat healthier that day, right? Like it's easier to like eat a salad rather than the hamburger when you walk into the cafeteria. We also know that when you exercise, other things happen, you procrastinate less. You tend to use your credit cards less often on the day that you exercise.

We're not aware of that. But I think what's happening is that for many people, exercise is a keystone habit. It changes other patterns like eating patterns and spending patterns. Because even if I think of myself as someone who's disciplined, there's a part of my brain that isn't listening

to what I tell myself until I prove it to myself. And so I might know that meditation is great. I might say like, of course, I've read all the studies. Meditation is so good. I should definitely do that. But until I prove to myself that I can meditate and that there is some reward that it's giving me something,

my brain basically thinks I'm a liar. It's very skeptical until I prove it. And this is what Keystone Habits do. They change how we see ourself. We start thinking, I'm the kind of person who runs in the morning. And the kind of person who runs in the morning, they eat a salad for lunch, right?

They don't pull out their credit card for anything. They make wiser decisions. I'm the kind of person who meditates in the morning. And that kind of person, that's someone who can find five or 10 minutes, right? They're mindful. What's one of your keystone habits? Exercise, exercise is a big one for me.

And what's interesting is, for people who were not athletes, the reason why exercise is so powerful as a keystone habit for some people is because if you weren't an athlete and you start running or you start exercising, it forces you to think of yourself as a new kind of person. It forces you to see yourself in a new light. Now for people who were athletes as kids, and then they take some time away

and then they start running again, oftentimes exercise is less of a keystone habit for them because it just conforms to their mental image of themselves. But for me, exercise is a huge part of it. Going to bed, I am someone who used to stay up till midnight, you know, every, and like my wife- You're a writer, hey? Exactly, exactly.

So writers do. Right, I'm supposed to. And my wife goes to bed at like nine or 9.15. And so I go to bed at 9.30 with her and that's a keystone habit for me. Like it makes me feel like I'm in control of my, I am making good choices. I'm setting up the next day for success

by going to bed early. And again, it's the story that we tell ourselves, right? Stories are so powerful. We start to tell ourselves a story about ourselves. And that's how change happens. Let's say someone has just heard that and is thinking about a Keystone habit for themselves and thinking, because I would agree, I think it's an excellent thing to pay attention to, which is that one habit that when you do it, automatically means that these next five things are going to be better.

Exactly. Always been thinking about that with my patients. It's trying to figure out, you could tell them 10 different things, but what's the one big one that when they get that right, those other things are going to happen automatically. Right, all on their own. For me, it is my morning routine, right? When I do it, even if it's a cut down, 10, 15 minute version of it, I'm basically showing myself, yeah, you know what? It doesn't matter how busy the world is or how much stuff you have to do with the kids or for your mom or your

wife. You know what? I still made time for myself. I'm worth it. I can rely on me. I can trust myself to say I'm gonna do it and follow through. Oh, that's so wonderful. That is such a wonderful way of putting that reward. And I'm sure that makes it more rewarding. I think it does. And I'm keen to emphasize that

I've been working on this for many years now because I don't want anyone to listen to this conversation and then suddenly go, wow, I need to try and do Doss Chasch's 45 minute routine straight away. It's like, hey, I was rubbish for a few years. I'd do it for a bit. I'd fall off. I just realized more and more that, oh, when I do it, I'm a better human in every aspect

of my life. I'm a more patient husband. I'm more present with my kids. I'm calm. I'm more productive. Do you know what I mean? It's sort of... For me, that's one of my keystone habits, but a lot of people find this stuff uncomfortable. So I wonder, Charles, what you would say to someone who goes, okay, I know what I want to do. Am I going to find it hard forever or is it just going to be hard for a few weeks? At some point, will it no longer feel hard

and it will become automatic? How would you help them think about that? So I'd say two things. Number one is trying to figure out what your keystone habit ought to be. One way that you can do that is ask yourself, what kind of change seems irrationally frightening to me? Right?

Like when I, before I became a runner, when I thought of running, it was a little, like I was like, I'm going to look terrible in those like spandex, right? Like I look so goofy when I'm running. Like, so it was irrationally scary. That's a sign that this kind of change will be meaningful to you.

It's going to change how you see yourself. Then the second part of your question, which is, will it be hard forever? The wonderful thing is, again, and back to the basal ganglia, there's a part of our brain that literally exists to make that pattern easier and easier and easier. So is it gonna be really easy on day three?

No, but it's gonna be easier than it was on day one. And by the time you hit day 21, or you hit day 30, or day 45, at some point it's going to become a habit. You won't even think about it anymore. You'll just do it automatically. You'll put on your, lace up your shoes, go out for a run, and you'll be looking forward to the podcast that you're listening to. And it won't even occur to you to think about like, oh, this is hard.

It's like brushing teeth, right? Exactly. you to think about like, oh, this is hard. It's like brushing teeth, right? Brushing teeth was not a habit when you were three or four or even five years old. I mean, my kids are a bit older now. Sometimes I'm not even convinced it's a habit yet. But I think, I hope for most people listening, it is now a habit. So at some point it does change. I get out of the shower now and even if my teeth are clean, I have to brush my teeth.

I don't feel clean unless I brush my, unless I have that minty feeling in my mouth. You're exactly right. Our brains exist to create as many habits as they possibly can. It wants to conserve all the cognitive energy it can by making these behaviors automatic. If you have consistent cues and rewards,

if you're paying attention to those cues and rewards, then each day it will get a little bit easier, almost imperceptibly easier, but on day two, it'll be easier than day one. And on day 21, it's gonna be easier than it was on day two. And at some point your brain takes over and it just becomes a habit. Hope you enjoyed that bite-sized clip.

Do spread the love by sharing this episode with your friends and family. If you want more, why not go back and listen to the original full conversation with my guest? If you enjoyed this episode, I think you will really enjoy my bite-sized Friday email. It's called The Friday Five. And each week I share things that I do not share on social media. It contains five short doses of positivity, articles of books that I'm reading, quotes that I'm thinking about, exciting research I've come across, and so much more.

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