Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection and Courage with Dr Kelly McGonigal (Re-Release) #352

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

This week, I’ve decided to re-release an exceptional episode that first came out on this podcast over three years ago. My guest is Dr Kelly McGonigal. She's a Stanford psychologist, award winning science writer and the author of multiple international best-selling books, including her most recent, The Joy of Movement: How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection and Courage.   This conversation is all about movement; why movement is essential for our brains, our bodies, and our relationships. We’ve all heard how important movement is for our physical health but actually, in so many ways, I think we have undersold movement. Kelly shares some amazing insights and science about movement, which you may have never heard before.   Kelly and I talk about the importance of music for movement, and how moving with others can improve social connections and foster a sense of support and community. We discuss how going beyond what you think you’re capable of – whether that’s an endurance event, lifting heavy weights or taking on an epic hike in nature – can provide a spiritual experience that changes the brain in positive ways.   We also emphasise that movement does not have to be hard. Kelly explains how even the simplest of movements provide an immediate reset for your mood and brain chemistry. And she shares ground-breaking new research that shows how repeatedly contracting any muscles, through continuous exercise, releases antidepressant substances called myokines that scientists have dubbed ‘hope molecules’.   Whether you’re someone who wants to move more but isn’t sure where to start – or you’re already a confirmed fitness fanatic – I think you’ll find this conversation uplifting and inspiring. I hope you enjoy listening. Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore or https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://www.vivobarefoot.com/livemore https://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/352 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you're running in a pack or you're in a dance class and you're moving in sync with other people, your brain starts to expand its sense of awareness. The people you see running in stride with you or the people you see moving in a dance class with you, your brain is like, that's happening at the same time that my brain is saying run or stretch your arm. And it just starts to assume I'm part of something bigger, an organism that's all moving as one. And you experience a sense of self that literally transcends the borders of your skin and your body. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far.

My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. For this week's episode, I've decided to re-release an episode that first came out over three years ago. Year on year, this podcast continues to grow, and I often think about the fact that there are some really important conversations that I had in the early days of the show that many of you may never have heard. Today's episode is one of those conversations and even if you did hear it first time around back in early 2020, I think it is a conversation that is well worth re-listening to, especially at this time of year, as we, in the UK at least, transition out of winter and go into spring. Now, spring is a really special time of year.

After the cold, dark, wet winter, the feeling of hibernation, and potentially the struggle to stay motivated, spring, I think, can represent a time of real hope, a time when we naturally want to work on our health, get outside and move our bodies. And today's conversation is all about movement, why movement is essential for our brains, our bodies and our relationships. Now, we've all heard over and over again how important movement is for our physical health. But actually, in so many ways, I think we have undersold movement. And in today's conversation, you're going to hear some amazing insights and science about movement, which you quite possibly have never heard before. I think this conversation

has the potential to completely reframe the way you look at movement and I think it will help you realise why moving your body each day is essential. Today's guest is Dr Kelly McGonigal. She's a Stanford psychologist, an award-winning science writer, and the author of multiple international best-selling books, including her most recent, The Joy of Movement, How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection, and Courage. In this wonderful conversation, Kelly and I talk about the connection between music and movement and how moving with others can improve social connections and foster a sense of support and community. We discuss how going beyond what you think you're capable of, whether that's at endurance events, lifting heavy

weights, or taking on an epic hike in nature, can provide a spiritual experience that changes the brain in positive ways. But we also emphasize that movement does not have to be hard. Kelly explains how even the simplest of movements provide an immediate reset for your mood and your brain chemistry. And she shares groundbreaking new research that shows how repeatedly contracting any muscle to continuous exercise releases antidepressant substances called myokines that scientists have dubbed hope molecules. Whether you're someone who wants to move more but isn't sure where to start, or you're already a confirmed fitness fanatic, I think you'll find this conversation uplifting and inspiring. I hope you enjoy listening.

And now, my conversation with Dr. Kelly McGonigal. So when you listen to music that you enjoy, it activates the motor system of the brain, and it gives you this rush of dopamine and adrenaline and activates the whole motor circuit. It's basically an invitation to move. And it's one of the reasons why people love listening to music because it's as energizing as if you were actually to get up and start moving around. And also we have all of these emotional associations with music. So music activates the motor system and movement and also our emotional memory system. So any song you listen to that you have these positive associations with is starting to pull

those memories out and helping you relive them. And I feel like one of the greatest gifts we can give to ourselves is to actually move in pleasurable or meaningful ways to songs that we love so that when we need that extra boost, that you can actually put it on your phone, listen to it, make it like a walk-on song so you can walk into a meeting and you have that embodied memory of, I danced to that song at my wedding, or I trained to that song. We wedding or I trained to that song. Like we all deserve a walk-on song. Yeah. What a lovely take on music. It's an invitation to move. I've heard you say that before. And I really sat with that to think, yeah, it really is, isn't it? Because no matter what that music is,

it can be fast. It can be slow, but it does something to you. You move in a slightly different way when you hear it. Well, so Oliver Sacks says, when we listen to music, we listen with our muscles. And Aristotle said that when you listen to music, the quality of the music enters your soul. And I feel like both of those are evident when you look at what happens in the brain when we listen to music, that it is activating our emotional systems and our movement systems. And like the question, so should we all move to music? One of the things, one of my favorite stories in the music chapter in the book was a man who has a young daughter and he talked about how his daughter loves dance parties. And she's always asking him to dance with her and she'll pull out her little play phone and

be like more and more. And he talks about how he'll dance with her in she'll pull out her little play phone and be like more and more. And he talks about how he'll dance with her in like the aisle at Target and play like, you know, Shake It Off by Taylor Swift. And there'll be dancing in the aisles. And he talks about how like the joy that he feels in that moment and the memories that he knows he's going to cherish. And I feel like that's true. You know, there's a reason that around the world, every culture puts music and movement at the heart of its most meaningful traditions and celebrations. I mean, we dance to come together, we make music in order to empower ourselves. And I feel like the entire book, each chapter is focused on a sort of a core human capacity to experience joy and how movement helps us access it

and even amplify it. So I think like, you know, it's in human nature to enjoy making music and to enjoy listening to music and movement amplifies the joy that we get, whether we are making music or participating in music or, you know, lip syncing to music. And I think it's just one example of how movement often, like it taps into somethingcing to music. And I think it's just one example of how movement often, like it taps into something that's a key part of what it means to be human and allows us to experience and express that particular joy. Yeah, for sure. Hearing that story reminds me of a patient I had. It was, well, it was two patients. It was a 16 year old girl and a 42 year old mother who was struggling to lose weight. And they, you know, they'd come in a few times and it was

really interesting. They seemed to have, but if there was a bit of disharmony in their relationship, you could tell she'd reported it to me privately as well. They tried all kinds of things to lose weight and they weren't really getting anywhere. They're very frustrated. And I noticed that the daughter always had earbuds hanging out when she came in. I think like it's mom dragging her in. And I can't remember what t-shirt she had, but it was always of a band. And I thought, okay, this is interesting. What if we try and prescribe something? And I hate the word prescribe in that context, if I'm honest, around movement and music. So I prescribed for them five minutes

of dancing. I said, hey, like maybe when you come back from school, before you do anything, as soon as you guys come home, you dance for five minutes together on whatever tunes you want. And it was incredible because there was a sort of ripple effect from that. They weren't engaged, had relationship problems. Just those five minutes of dancing together every day, very quickly transformed their relationship. They're then dancing for 10 or 15 minutes. It's something they really look forward to, they're bonding. Then they start cooking healthy meals together. And it leads to this you know ripple effect this cascade effect. Upward spiral. Upward spiral yeah and that all started with music. Can we like break

this down so I love this story because there's so much science behind the brilliance of that prescription. So first of all we know that when you move to music it changes how you interpret the physical sensations of movement. So one reason that people think they don't like to exercise, I mean, they don't like it, they don't enjoy it, is they don't like the sensations of their heart rate increasing or sweating, breathing, maybe struggling to breathe a little bit. And we know that if you interpret those physical sensations as I'm out of shape, I'm too old, this isn't for me, it creates this actual, like the negative cascade where then you think, I don't want to do this. And you have a negative memory of the exercise experience. And research shows that when you have

music that you like, music that's empowering, maybe the lyrics motivate you, or it's someone like Lizzo, who is just like the embodiment of female power and joy, that it changes how you interpret those sensations. So suddenly you might be thinking, my heart is pounding and you start to think, that's what happens when I'm having fun, or this is a sign that I'm getting stronger. And that feeling of sweat starts to feel like evidence of expressing your power and using your energy. And that actually changes the way people remember the exercise experience too. So if you move to music that you like, you're more likely to remember the experience as being empowering and enjoyable,

and you're more likely to do it again. So that's sort of one thing that's great about your prescription. But also we know that when you move with other people, the endorphins and the endocannabinoids that get released, they're actually bonding hormones. So people who move with other people tend to like them more and trust them more. And it creates this kind of social connection. It makes it easier to connect with people. It makes it easier to resolve conflict. So if you want to strengthen a relationship with someone, moving with them is one of the best ways to do that. It just primes your neurochemistry to be able to have an easier rapport and connection. And again, like you said, so much of this is an upward spiral. I mean, there's research showing that if you exercise, you have

better interactions with other people for the whole next 24 hours. And part of it is brain chemistry. And part of it is how it changes your mindset and how it makes you feel about yourself. But, um, I, you know, I love this idea that you could take a small dose of movement, something that feels accessible and fun and meaningful, and that it could have all of these ripple effects that you described. Yeah. And I think making it small and accessible is really key, right? Because the way we talk about movement in society has conventionally been around, you know, burning off energy, burning off calories. It's good for your physical health. I mean, it's very one dimensional narrative. Yeah. It's punishment for enjoying life. That's how a lot

of people think about it. Like, oh, I indulged, so now I have to repent. Yeah. You mentioned punishment, but even the vernacular around movement, I'm going to kill myself in the gym. What does that mean? I don't think we have realized the implications of talking about movement in this way has had, because some people will say, you know, it's just not for me, exercise. It's just not for me, movement. I mean, what would you say to people who say that? And mindset, you know, influences so much of how we experience something. So I describe movement as using your body to engage with life. And I think of whether you call it movement or you call it exercise, it's really about finding an activity that allows you to engage with life the way that you want to.

So maybe you love how it feels when you go for a walk in nature, or you love how it feels when you run and you feel fast and free and you can sense your own persistence. Or you love how it feels to move and flow and Tai Chi or yoga, or have dance parties in your living room with your kid, and that you use your body to engage with life, to express different aspects of your human nature, to connect with other people. And if you're experiencing movement instead as a punishment for something you ate or an investment in your future wellbeing that is not connected to something you actually enjoy, it just sets people up to, first of all,

find an activity that they hate. I mean, if people are obsessed with looking at their watch and seeing like these calorie counters or counting how many steps they've taken, it's very easy to miss how powerful you feel when you lift something heavy or how much fun it is to high five someone after you do an exercise or go for a run. So I think we need a total mindset reset about what movement is and why we do it

so that people, first of all, are more likely to choose something that actually connects them to joy and meaning. And also so that we can sort of escape the voices in the head that often come up when you come to exercise from a place of shame or fear that's so common. Yeah, it's really common. I thought a lot about fitness trackers over the past few years, and my view on them has sort of changed, and it does from day to day, because I kind of see them a little bit like blood pressure monitors in the sense that some patients say, hey, doctor, shall I buy a blood pressure monitor? And for some of them, it's the best thing in the world because they check it once a week. They use it as a way to, you know, nudge them in the right direction. If the blood pressure's going

up, they'll say, oh, you know what? I need to get back on track with my lifestyle. Whereas other people will buy it and check it two, three times a day, stress out every time it's a little change, and it almost becomes paralyzing. And I'm interested in your view. I guess for me, fitness trackers can potentially be a very similar thing. I do feel more and more that we have become so obsessed with what's on our wrist or what's on our phone that we've lost connection with what the movement is. Now, I totally accept for some people it can be motivating. They're like, oh, you know what? I've only got 6,000 steps today. I want to hit 10,000 a day. That's going to motivate me to go out. So I think it's about finding the balance somewhere. And I guess for different people, the balance is somewhere different. But what's your view on these trackers? Yeah. So I'm a big fan of you need to conduct an experiment on yourself.

So I'm always encouraging people to think about what their goal is and what their values are. And like, is this something that supports you in doing what is important to you? I think fitness trackers are often a first start for people. You know, I have a friend recently, they're trying to motivate someone in the family to move more. So they all got one together so that they could support this one person. I like that idea of it. There's a story in my book about a woman who wanted to become active after experiencing a devastating loss. And so her husband gave her

a Fitbit for Christmas and she said, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to embrace life and start moving forward. And that helped her feel like she was making some progress. And then she found a running group and it was actually the community support of the running group that helped her get to the next stage of moving through her grief. But the Fitbit was the first start. So I feel like, you know, for a lot of people, it's worth experimenting with, but I really agree with this idea that if you get obsessed with metrics, you might not be paying attention to your direct experience. And I think paying attention to your direct experience gives you so much feedback about,

for example, when you move, do you feel better afterwards? That is a really great metric that your counter is not going to be able to tell you. But when you found the ideal form of movement for you, you shouldn't have to recover psychologically from it. You should feel set up to walk into your home or your next meeting with a sense of, I feel more energized. I feel more optimistic. I'm like a best version of myself. And, you know, there's no fitness tracker that's going to tell you that, but you can check in with how you feel. Yeah. It's almost as if at the end of the run or the race or whatever, like there's such an obsession with, okay, you know, what, what happened? What was my heart rate? What was this?

We're actually in that moment where we could be tapping into our hearts and how we're feeling. We can be distracted by these other metrics that frankly, we can check later as well. And maybe, maybe the take home might be for some of us is when we finish that particular movement, maybe sit with it for a minute or two. Just how do you feel? You can check the metrics later if that's something that means a lot to you, but maybe don't do it straight away, potentially. You know, I never like telling people what they should be doing. It's about just having, hopefully, sharing ideas that may or may not resonate. Is it, is it helping you experience movement in a way that you enjoy? And is it helping you stay

active? And, you know, people, everything, I feel like everything about the science is an experiment that you conduct on yourself. I mean, actually the research suggests that probably trackers aren't that effective at motivating people, but it does for some people. It does for some. It really does. But that's inherently the problem. I wouldn't say the problem, but that is what we see with research all the time, right? Isn't it? We look at these gross conclusions, these simplifications. And it's always an average and there's always a distribution. And who knows, you might be the outlier. Yeah. And if you're someone listening to this right now, you might go, hold on a minute. I get what you're saying, Kelly, or what you're saying wrong.

But ultimately, this fitness tracker on my wrist is the only thing that has got me off the sofa. And now I run it every other day and I love it. And the tracker made me do that and helps me do it. Fine. Yeah. You mentioned a running group. Have you heard of something called Park Run? Yes, of course.

Is it big here in the States? You know, I don't know because so many of the people, so I write about Good Gym in the book. And a lot of people who are participants in Good Gym also are big fans of Parkrun. So that's how I've heard it come up quite a bit from people who are running a gym. Parkrun is, it's almost like an epidemic in the UK at the moment. It's a good epidemic. It's growing rapidly. And I actually interviewed the CEO of Parkrun on this podcast,

maybe a year ago. What was really interesting is that he said, he said, Ranga, the thing about Parkrun is that Parkrun is a social intervention masquerading as a running event. I know. I love it. I feel the same way about the classes that I teach, that people show up thinking they're showing up for a workout, and then they have a positive experience of belonging and connection. And as I've heard from people who are part of these running groups too, that they can become a real source of social support. I mean, you know, there's so many important dimensions of social community. They're your close relationships, your partnerships in life, your family. But it's so important to have social relationships that are a little bit

casual, but where you know you can show up and belong, where people are happy to see you. And when you're having a bad day, they give you just that level of support where it's okay to be who you are and there are people who care. And it's amazing how much movement facilitates that level of connection where you're sort of allowed to be who you are. When things are difficult, people support you in this kind of easy way that we sometimes don't find in our close relationships where, you know, things get very complicated. And so, you know, I think that Park Run is a great example of that. Good gym is a great example of that. And, you know, here in the US you see that a lot with CrossFit gyms and

group exercise classes. Yeah. Park run has transformed my weekends and my family's weekends. You know, my son first noticed some runners in the local park, maybe three, four years back, said, Daddy, what are they doing? Why have they all got these things on and stuff? And that's how we got into park run. And we started as in the UK on Saturdays as the adult park run, which is a 5K run. And on the Sundays in some areas, they have a kids park run, which is a 2K run. So I think since my son was five, we've been doing the 2K run, which they would walk at first and they run, but now he does the adult one every Saturday. But what it's done is not only that fitness,

it helps us feel part of the local community, right? And I know I've heard you on a previous podcast, you mentioned values. You mentioned one of your values has been recently, I think, to engage with your local community. Now, there's many ways you can engage with a local community, but movement is such a beautiful way to do it because I've noticed with my kids, because they see the same people every week, they bump into the same people in the supermarkets. That's just, it helps you feel that, you know, in this increasingly disconnected and isolated world, it brings people together. And one of the ideas, one of the central ideas in your book that I'm getting as I read it, is this idea that moving together with other people helps us to cooperate and feel part of

that. And that's incredible. That's a different narrative on movement than what we're conventionally being told. I know. And it's such a needed medicine in our world right now, that kind of belonging and community. I think one of the reasons why movement and things like park run or things like my dance classes help people experience that is movement often asks us to be the best version of ourselves and also like good friends to other human beings. So, you know, you go for a run and it's just so natural to cheer other people on. Like if you finish first to support other people in finishing, cheer other people on. Like if you finish first to support other people in finishing, it's so natural to receive that support. It's like an easier place to allow yourself to be congratulated and supported. We get to practice these kinds of rituals of just like easy human interdependence, which just can be sometimes a little bit different than sometimes team sports. I know there's in the

US, there's a lot of concern about people getting like so competitive with it and it bringing out maybe the worst side of parents or kids. But in things like runs and, you know, like ninja warrior training and all these other places where people experiencing connection, it's because like you're asked to do things that are a little bit hard. And then when you do it, people, people congratulate you and see your strength and you get to do that for others. And there's this kind of bigger than self effort and bigger than self joy that people experience. That is, some psychologists call it a sense of we agency.

You get together and you're doing something and you experience a sense of self that literally transcends the borders of your skin and your body. You feel connected to almost like a community is like an organism in itself. I mean, it's such, like we could get into the neuroscience of this, but literally if you're running in a pack or you're in a dance class and you're moving in sync with other people, your brain starts to expand its sense of awareness so that you literally can, like the people you see running in stride with you or the people you see moving in a dance class with you, your brain is like, that's happening at the same time that my brain is saying run or stretch your arm. And it

just starts to assume I'm part of something bigger, an organism that's all moving as one. And it creates this amazing sense of self-transcendence. It's incredible that you're a trained scientist and we can and we will go into the neuroscience of what's going on when we move. But there's another narrative at play here, isn't there? There's an almost non-scientific, almost spiritual narrative. And I find that incredibly fascinating, the science and the spirituality together, because I think we all know that for people who do move, you know, before we started, you were saying that this is a love letter, isn't it? This is your book and it's going to help people who have experienced joy and improvements of their mental health when they move.

It's going to help them go, yeah, this is why it happens. And, you know, I feel that as well. But there's, you know, I spoke to someone called Sanjay Rawal on this podcast. In fact, last time I was in LA, I interviewed him here. I think you'd love that podcast, actually. He was the director on a film called 3100s, where it's this race in New York, right? Central New York, where they run. Oh, yes. I think the New Yorker wrote an article about this. Okay. Yes. I'm familiar with this. Yeah. And it was just incredible. And these guys move round like a one mile block in New York City and they do it for about 50, 60 days. They're

running like over a marathon a day. And it's just incredible because it's about, it is about self-transcendence. It's about movement, I think, as a way of bringing people together. Movement as a way of, you know, becoming greater than your individuality. And I sort of feel, becoming greater than your individuality. And I sort of feel, I don't know, is this why movements and running and endurance events, why they're growing and they're becoming more and more popular all around the world? Have we become a disconnected, isolated society where actually we are discovering more and more now that when we push ourselves outside our comfort zone and we do, let's say, an event, or we go out and challenge our bodies, it's actually having benefits for us far beyond the physical benefits, but there's mental and emotional

benefits as well. Absolutely. You know, so, oh gosh, there's so much I want to say about this. Let me just backtrack for a second. So you mentioned I'm a scientist. And one of the things that I want to communicate is that for me, science and spirituality are not in opposition. So if you were to look at my early work, I did a lot of work looking at yoga and my research on meditation and sort of what's happening in your body and brain and what the benefits of that are. And I feel like it's not that we need science to prove things that we can directly experience. But sometimes the science can also help us feel that sense of awe and wonder. Like when I understand that my muscles are sending proteins into my bloodstream that act to give my brain hope when they cross the blood brain barrier, I experience a sense of awe and wonder that actually feels almost spiritual. So I feel like one of my goals is actually to help people to have almost like a religious

experience around the neuroscience too, that it's a phenomenal what humans are capable of. But so this idea that maybe people are experiencing in their current state of isolation or alienation and despair, the need to come together to move or to do these ultra endurance events. I think that's definitely true. And one of the things that I didn't realize until I started talking to so many people is that intensity actually matters. So one of the things that you will hear when people are being encouraged to exercise initially is you only have to do a minute. And it's true.

There's like no dose that's too small to get physical and mental health benefits. You could do as close to nothing. And as soon as you take a breath, as soon as you take a single squat, everything is good for you. But there does seem to be like a dose response. And for people who are dealing with mental health challenges, people who are dealing with a sense of isolation, sometimes doing things that are really hard seems to kick into gear what's happening in your brain and what happens in your sense of self and your ability to experience transcendence that you can experience

while doing a marathon or an ultra marathon that maybe you're not going to experience transcendence that you can experience while doing a marathon or an ultra marathon that maybe you're not going to experience when you first take that walk around the block. And I think that was a theme that really was revealed to me in so many stories of people who have these amazing spiritual experiences, whether they're running an ultra marathon or hiking in nature, or the first time they power lift. There was one woman in the book who had a personal best in a power lift. That's hard. And she sensed her strength in such an amazing way. This was someone who was dealing with severe depression and she decided not to take her own life. She had a plan to take her own life. She had a plan to take

her own life. And she decided she wanted to live because of that kind of spiritual and emotional experience of literally sensing a strength in herself she didn't know she had. And so one of the things that I'm also, it's one of the messages I'm trying to give people is don't be afraid of going beyond what you think you're capable of if there's any part of you. So many people I talked to for this book, they're like, oh, so the good news is we don't have to run a marathon. Like you say, three minutes of exercise can boost your mood. Yes, that is definitely true. And also you might want to run a marathon. You might even want to run an ultra marathon to have these transcendent experiences. And that's also an option.

to have these transcendent experiences. And that's also an option. Yeah. There's so much about movement and how we talk about it because some people will be listening and they'll be thinking, some people will be running while they're listening to this, right? And be going, yeah, this is why I run. This is incredible. This is what I feel like after my run. But there'll also be someone who might be listening to this while slumped on their sofa in the evening and they hear the words ultramarathon and they're thinking, that just doesn't connect with me and my life. Like I am busy. I work two jobs. I'm exhausted. I come home and I just want to sit in front of the TV and unwind because life is tough. So to that person who struggles to even

go for a 20 minute walk every day, what would you say to that person? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, something that is really important, especially at this time of year. It also contains prebiotics and digestive enzymes that help support your gut health.

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And these packs are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office, or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. Well, so first of all, I often will tell people, pick a song you love because of the power of music and then do any sort of movement that works for your body in this moment to the duration of a song you love or a song that reminds you of someone that you love. And you do whatever movement feels accessible and positive in this moment. And you know, people be like, well, like, what do you mean? Like, do I have to do like exercises? You know what? Most people can figure out how to move

their bodies in ways that work for them in that moment. So it could be you stand up and stretch. It could be that you just play, maybe you shadow box. I mean, you know, the body has an intelligence, maybe. So somebody who, who didn't actually make it into the book, but someone who, um, Maybe, so somebody who didn't actually make it into the book, but someone who, someone's story that I was really moved by was someone who literally had trouble standing because of his health challenges. And he worked up to being able to walk the hallway of his apartment. And that was a big milestone. And then he walked, he worked his way up to being able to leave his apartment and walk around the block. Thing is, there's always a milestone that's within reach and you can move with whatever parts of your body still move. So in the book, I visited dance classes for people with Parkinson's

disease, a gym for people with severe disabilities and neurological disorders. No matter what is present in your body right now, I'm also someone who deals with chronic pain. So I understand that there can be a lot of things going on inside of you, whether it's depression or grief or anxiety or pain, that makes movement feel intimidating. And a lot of this is about self-trust, that you don't need to listen to somebody else say you have to do a minimum of 20 minutes or a minimum of an hour, or it has to be this hard. That if you set the intention to move your body with gratitude for having connection to life, that often people can innovate their own early workouts. And then you can go find a community that supports you if that's of interest to you.

Yeah. Yeah. Kelly, I love that. I mean, there's so much of what you say, so much of what you write about that deeply, deeply connects with me, which I'm so excited to be talking to you. I mentioned I didn't like the word prescription before in this context, and I don't. And even the way we set up public health guidelines, I get it, right? I understand we have to give broad recommendations to the population. You must do 30 minutes of minimum, you know, moderate. Do we though, even? Isn't it funny? Like everyone, they keep changing the recommendation. I've been a fitness professional for 20 years. The recommendations are always changing. And it seems like the recommendations in part, it's based on research and part, it's like,

oh my gosh, what can we get people to actually do? Let's change the recommendations. Maybe they'll do it if they know they only have to do it in five to 10 minute increments and it doesn't have to be all at once. Maybe then they'll do it. And it's like, you know, I don't know that it's happening. Yeah, maybe fundamentally, maybe- Guidelines move.

That's it. Whatever you can do, whatever you're willing to do. Yeah. And as controversial as this potentially is, maybe guidelines maybe might be part of the problem because we are making it too prescriptive, too didactic that this is what we, the body, the public health body or the government say

you should be doing each day, right? Fundamentally, A, I don't think anyone likes to be told what to do long-term, you know? But B, I really love what you said. Like when I asked you, what will you say to that person who doesn't want to move or thinks it's not for them? Everyone likes to move. There's always a song that somebody likes on some level, right? It may not be your taste. It may not be my taste. And it's not music. It might be nature, right? So there's so many movement. So the other thing, I usually start with a song, but there's some people who don't love to move to music. So think about something that you already love and then think of an activity that allows you to do that. So, you know, if you love animals and maybe you don't

have a pet, you can't have a pet because of where you live or your circumstances. Do you know how many animal shelters will let you volunteer to take a dog for a walk or a run? Maybe there's a person you want to spend time with. Maybe they love an activity and you could choose to do it with them. Do you know how much that strengthens a relationship when you endorse an activity that someone else loves and they feel like it's their best self and you're like, okay, I'll go to that yoga class with you. There's a lot of ways to think about who and what you already enjoy. And I think that rather than thinking of durations and intensities, 30 minutes must be moderate. People don't even know what that means. I think that we should view movement as being as essential to human survival as eating and sleeping.

You don't say, I'll do it like once on the weekend. It's part of how you live your life. And if you can find ways to make it part of your life so that it's not a chore, it's an activity you love, so maybe it's part of your recreation recreation or it's part of how you get about your life. You run errands by cycling or walking or it's how you connect with people in your life. If you're going to spend 20 minutes with your partner or with your kid, why not make that a movement?

Since we know that the neurochemistry of movement helps us bond and connect with others. And I really think this idea that it's something that you're like shoving into your life that's divorced from your life is one of the reasons people don't actually do it. Yeah. Doing it with other people, I think is, it's really fascinating because I hear that and I reflect on my own circumstances and what I have chosen to do with my family. So if I take my kids, for example, I do park running with my son.

And it's one of the favorite things I do every week because we go out together and like, we share that experience together. And then, you know, we walk back afterwards and we're chatting and it's, you know, I know 10, 15 years down the line, I look back on these things with real fond memories. You know, it's, it's a fun thing that we do together. I have a fond memory of doing sweating to the oldies in my living room with my mom. Um, and it was so funny because that was the only workout video she would do with me because it was, um, songs from her youth. Yeah. But I, you know, I cherish that memory. Yeah. And, um, one of the things I also want to recommend to anyone listening who's thinking about this is how much we can connect over shared music. And so if you're doing that

with someone else, saying like, what song should we put on next and letting your kid choose it, that's so empowering to them. I mean, I mentioned like go to a class with... So if someone in your life loves yoga and they're always talking about it, go to it with them, not just to have a shared experience, but you are honoring something about them. When you move with other people and you let them pick the playlist or the activity, you're like saying, I see you, I value you, I see this part of you. And that's a really meaningful thing. But of course, there's all this research too, that moving together is like, you know, when primates groom one another and we get that shared endorphin rush

and eating together does the same thing too. So it's a great thing to put together. Yeah, for sure. And I really, I can't stop thinking about that whole societal narrative piece, that whole idea of prescribing movement, telling people what movement counts as part of their

movements. And, you know, as if it doesn't count as less, it's got a particular name, right? What do you do? Oh, I do yoga. I do Pilates. Hold on a minute. Why do we have to name it? Or why do spinning? It's like, well, there's nothing wrong with that, right? All three of those things are fantastic if that's what makes you tick. But it's something I can't shake off at the moment. It's this thought that we've got movement all wrong. We talk about it all wrong. We put people off. We make them think they have to go to a gym at a particular time with a particular outfit on. When basically what you're saying is it's a fundamental part to be a human is to move. I think about it. I mean, even if you're thinking of movement as medicine,

so your quadriceps don't really care if you are squatting and lifting things because you're gardening or you're squatting and lifting things in a gym because a coach is telling you do this now. Your quadriceps just know, I need to exert strength. I need to use energy and any good that comes from that squat, whether it's changing your mood or, you know, releasing these myokines that protect your health, it's going to happen because you're moving your body and your quadriceps aren't tracking. Did you do it exactly 20 times for exactly this many repetitions? Your body and your brain just know I'm engaging with life. And like all the benefits that come from movement, it's about, it's about using energy, using your muscles, using as much

of your body as you can. And that's when your brain and body reward you. And we don't need some of this other stuff unless it lights you up. Movement is life, isn't it? It's life because everything is movement. Breathing is your diaphragm and your lungs moving. Talking, communicating is movement. Facial expressions are movement. Breathing is your diaphragm and your lungs moving. Talking, communicating is movement. Facial expressions are movement. So actually every single person listening to this podcast right now practices movement on a daily basis, whether they think they do or not, because talking, even pressing play on the podcast app or on YouTube, you are moving to do that. So I guess. So think about expanding your repertoire. So if you're someone who thinks you don't like exercise, well, you already know how to move your

arm, right? Just scroll through your phone. So, you know, exercise or movement is just, okay, well, what's the full range of motion. And, um, and that's sort of what we're meant to do. And again, that you can do it with whatever body you have. And one of the experiences I had in researching the book that was really moving for me was going to this class for people with Parkinson's disease, where every level of movement is impaired. And so we're used to thinking of Parkinson's disease as it's harder to walk, or maybe there's a tremor in my gestures. But as it advances, one of the things you see is that it becomes harder to connect with you see is that it becomes harder to connect with your face, that it becomes harder to make facial expressions that let you know,

for example, it's harder for me to smile and connect so that you know I'm happy to see you. And one of the things I witnessed in this class is that in part it was the music and then using your body in whatever degree you can, getting the motor system of the brain fired up, getting that extra bit of dopamine was allowing people to also socially connect more powerfully. So by the end of class, people who came in, it's sometimes called the mask of Parkinson's disease. They come in and people look like they're not there, but they're there, but it's just, they can't show it. And by the end of the class, people were able to shake hands and hug and express joy. And that's actually how we

ended the class. Everyone, one at a time, was asked to express joy and give it to the group. And then we all got to receive it. We went around in a circle. And I think people sometimes underestimate how much when you move your body, you don't have to have Parkinson's disease for this to be true. You are enhancing your capacity to engage with life in the ways that humans need to, to connect and to have positive action in the world. And like movement is that catalyst that whatever needs to happen in you, whether you need to find your courage, movement can activate that. Whether you need to find hope, movement can activate that.

And it allows us to be present in every role and relationship that matters to us. Movement helps us engage with life. I love that because as a doctor, I see a lot of people who are starting to disengage with life, people with mental health problems, people who really struggle with day-to-day things, day-to-day activities. And in the book, you beautifully go through a lot of the research around this, about how being sedentary in itself will make you low and depressed. And I think there's a statistic, if I remember it right, that the amount of steps you need to take on a daily basis in order to not get anxious or depressed or something like this is 5,649.

Yeah. So let me explain what the study is. So this was a study that took people who were a little bit more active than your average American, not like super exercisers. I think they were averaging something like 9,000 steps a day when they started the study. And then they asked them to reduce their daily step count to what is typical for the average American. So around 5,000 and to not exercise. So So if you have the chance to exercise on purpose, don't. And in this study, after about a week of reducing your activity count to the average American, they actually only got to about whatever that number was you said, it was just over 5,000. 88% of people were reporting symptoms of depression. Nearly everyone had less energy, more anxiety, more stress. They reported a 31% decrease in meaning in life. And so, you know,

what I, the way that I take that study, and there are other studies showing this too. Can I just clarify? So you're saying these are active people. Relatively active people. Okay. So they're roughly getting 9,000 steps a day. When they go down to around five and a half thousand. Which is actually not just the American average. That's pretty much the worldwide average. So they go down and you're saying there was a stat, I think you just mentioned,

88% of them are feeling depressed. Yes. And then reporting a decrease in meaning in life and satisfaction with life. And so this is fundamentally exactly what you're talking about. Movement is engaging with life. Stop moving and you start to disengage with life.

So I do think that that study suggests it's possible that the lifestyle that is becoming more prevalent around the world is actually inducing depression and a decrease in satisfaction in life. I mean, we know we can talk about why, but there are many reasons that when you become less active, you're changing your metabolism, you're changing your brain chemistry, and you're changing your mood in such profound ways that some people think there's a very large incidence of depression that is caused simply from being sedentary. That's not always going to be the cause and movement won't always be the cure. But a certain amount of suffering in society may actually be directly

caused by the fact that people are living such sedentary lives. Yeah. I spoke to the researcher, Brendan Stubbs. Yes. I love his work. Yeah. I think it came out a few weeks ago. People loved it because he spoke about a lot of the research on movement and depression. And a lack of movement can actually start to make some people, and again, none of us are trying to say it covers everything, but for some people, it's going to certainly make a difference. And I think we kind of intuitively know that. If anyone's got kids, you will know this feeling. Like if in the UK, certainly if it's raining all weekends and the

kids are inside and they start to play up and their mood goes off simply, you know, 10 minutes outside in the garden in the rain and they're like different people. But it's also how it changes your brain. So one of the things I write about in the book, I actually did some like self-diagnosis. So I found a lot of research suggesting that there are genetic variants that predispose you both to depression and anxiety, as well as predispose you to experiencing the antidepressant effects of movement. So you could basically have genetic risk factors for mental health challenges that make you especially susceptible to the mental health benefits of exercise. So, you know, one study was looking at this particular SNP, this particular genetic variant, that if you have it,

you're something like three times more likely to experience depression and suicidal thinking. But if you exercise for 30 minutes a day, it almost completely erases that risk. And so I found a whole bunch of these genetic variants, and I did my 23andMe test, hacked my raw data because my husband is a medical scientist and he helped me out with this. And I have every single genetic variant that is associated with both the increased risk and the increased mental health benefit. And so I feel like sometimes when we talk about how exercise can be an antidepressant, yeah, of course it's true that most people feel better when they exercise, but also it's the case that you can be like me and have be born with a temperament

and this vulnerability to experience mental health challenges and exercise can change the function of your brain, can change even the structure of your brain in ways that make you more resilient. And if you are going through an episode of depression that can help you recover more quickly and that even enhances your brain's ability to respond positively to things like antidepressant

medication or psychotherapy. We know that exercise, it actually, it's like an additive, it's like a catalyst that increases your brain plasticity for anything that's good for you, whether it's a drug that you're taking for your mental health or a therapist that you're seeing. And so I feel like there's, that's at a very deep level, exercise is good for mental health. And one of the reasons I like to talk about this is because for people who have that vulnerability or have that experience, when you're in it, you don't want to move. When you're in it, your brain, it's such like almost a betrayal. If you're in the middle of a depressive episode or grief, your brain will not give you the immediate reward. And so here we can be talking

about an endorphin rush or the feel better effect. But if you're actually in a depressive episode or you're grieving, it is very possible that your brain has forgotten how to give you an endorphin rush from movement. And what I want so much for people to know is that that is true. And also movement is one of the only things you can do that helps your brain remember how to experience reward and hope. And sometimes you have to get through that part of the process where you are moving, even though you don't want to. And even though you're like, brain, you were supposed to give me an endorphin rush and I barely got through it. And to know that exercise has such a profound impact on your brain in the long-term, that if you can get through that, your experience changes. You mentioned that genetic susceptibility and that you had all of them when you looked at the data. Which didn't surprise me. I told my parents that and my mom was like, not surprised. Yeah. But what's interesting for me is that you are someone who has had this very passionate relationship with movement. It sounds like your entire life. Now I'm interested when that started,

but also I'm interested as to now knowing that genetic data, do you think back on reflection that you figured out at a young age, when I move, I feel better. And when I don't, I, you know, I don't feel good. And therefore that has shaped your behaviors for the rest of your life, basically. Yes. So I'm sure now, if I were growing up now and I was the child I was then, somebody would have thought to like send me to therapy. But growing up, you know, I was born in the seventies, growing up late sevents, 80s, kids weren't going to therapy, at least not where I lived. Nobody was being prescribed mental health drugs. So it was sort of left to me to figure out what to do with a temperament. I mean, from the time I was out of the womb, I was basically scared, anxious,

fearful. You know, there was nothing to explain it except this is how my brain worked from the time I was born. And also I was not an athlete. So one thing I've been saying lately, which is surprising people who know me now, I actually was put in remedial gym class because I was so uncoordinated and slow. There were like two of us who were pulled out of our normal class so uncoordinated and slow. There were like two of us who were pulled out of our normal class because we just couldn't keep up. We couldn't, like, I can't catch a ball. It was, it was, you know, humiliating actually at the time. And when I was seven or eight, you know, there was this wave of aerobics and calisthenics. And I discovered moving at home because my mom would go to these garage sales and buy workout tapes and never do them. She was like,

oh, I'm going to become an exerciser. And she never did. But we would have these VHS tapes at home. And so I started doing calisthenics and aerobics at home. And it was a totally different form of movement. So nobody was throwing things at me. Nobody was timing how fast I could go. It was me keeping beat with music and other people's bodies. And I fell in love with jazzercise. And it was the first time I didn't feel like my body was this embarrassing burden that I was dragging around, unable to do the things that other kids could do. And then over years, started when I was seven or eight, realizing how much it helped me deal with stress and anxiety. But I needed to find the movement

that I could do too. And like, we're not all natural born runners. We're not all natural born athletes, but I do believe that there's something in everyone that can be captured, tapped into by some form of movement. There's quite a few things, Kelly, I want to pick up on there. You mentioned something that was quite humiliating. So at a young age, I'm just trying to imagine, you're the kids who, let's say, you're not getting picked for the team because you're always the last one to get picked, or you're saying that you and somebody else got pulled out of class because you're not coordinating enough to continue with the rest of your peers. That is torture at that age, you know,

to feel. And I guess what I'm getting at is, is there a difference between men and women in this? We've already mentioned the societal narrative around movement and how, you know, if you can't do what your peers can do and you feel humiliated and you're not part of that group, you might change your relationship with movement for the rest of your life. There is research on this. Now, so the research now is looking at people like our age and older, many of whom had traumatic experiences in gym class or PE. I don't know what it's like in the UK now, but in the US, actually, it's not even required. There are schools now where you don't necessarily have to even take gym or PE. So that you're not humiliated? No, just because there's not funding.

It's like we don't have art and music class everywhere also now. But I think there's also, there's a big shift right now in trying to create less humiliating and traumatizing experiences because this research shows that if you were picked last, if you have a memory of being shamed because of your body or any other reason that you didn't fit in, there's lots of reasons that kids have been humiliated in sports or gym classes, that it makes you want to avoid movement and exercise for the rest of your life. So based on that, if you were to give advice to schools, there's a lot of schools had teachers and teachers who listen to this podcast. Based upon that research then, have you got any advice for them in terms of how they should frame movement and talk about it and manage it

at schools? Because you don't want to shape these kids the rest of their life. You don't want to alter their relationship with movement negatively if you can help it. I mean, and there are a lot of people doing this work, by the way, I should say, a lot of people trying to improve that gym class experience. One thing is autonomy, that people should have choices to identify movements that help them, you know, reduce stress and feel better and connect with others. You know, the most positive experiences I ever had in a gym class was when we were, we were given permission to like, just walk around and talk to our friends. That was, I got more activity doing that than when I was hiding on a field being like, cover me. Like, I hope the ball doesn't come to me because I don't know how

to play the sport and I don't want to get hurt. You know, a weightlifting like circuit to be able to do it on your own and choose what you do and how you do it. You know, so to give people a sense of autonomy and to allow people to connect. And the other positive experience I had for whatever reason, one year, my last year in high school, the gym class instructors decided to allow you to choose into what they called competitive or non-competitive. And we were literally put in different rooms. They put the binders up to close the rooms. And if you opted into non-competitive, everyone was agreeing, we all aren't any good at this and we don't care and we're going to find a way to make it fun.

And I realized that I could hit a volleyball for the first time in my life because I wasn't like hiding in the back with the competitive players being like, don't let her touch the ball. She's going to drop it. And it was such an amazing experience because none of us cared. And so we were able to play in a different way. So I just think giving people choice, letting people opt into, are you the athlete who wants to use this time to compete and get better and train? Or do you want to just like have fun with your friends? Or do you want to be by yourself? Could you let kids listen to music on their headphones and strength train and have that time for themselves? Have it look more like what adults get to do when they choose their own movement. The reason I'm asking about men and women is because there is, I can't remember the exact name. I think the BBC in the UK have a

movement like This Girl Can. Oh yes, I've seen that. Yeah, there's some videos. I think Australia has that too. Yeah, it's an awareness. And again, I don't know the exact roots of this. So my interpretation of this is that there is a lot of people saying that women, that girls as they get older don't particularly, you know, and this is a gross generalization, are maybe too self-conscious to move. They're not moving enough. And it's a movement to try and encourage more girls, more women to get moving. Now, I think they're targeting this at women because it seems to be more of an issue with women than guys. Has any of your research come across anything like that? And do you have any views on why that might be?

So you especially see this during adolescence and young adulthood when women experience their bodies being objectified so much for the first time. I think of one of my friend's daughters who stopped going for a run. She loved running, and all of a sudden she hit adolescence and she started getting catcalls and she didn't feel safe and she stopped running. So I think that part of it is suddenly you realize that everyone has an opinion about your body. You go to the gym and people will, even praise can feel quite threatening and unwanted, or you'll get negative comments from people. And that sense of suddenly your body is an object that everyone is evaluating is, I think, one of the things that keeps women from participating in all sorts of activities. There definitely is a cultural movement, though though for women to embrace their strength, embrace their power, embrace their inner athlete or dancer and to move in any way

that feels good. And I think that one of the things I often will talk to fitness professionals about is how important it is to design environments and communities so that if you're walking in for the first time, you understand that you are welcomed and celebrated and not immediately objectified by like, you know, let's take your before picture. Or, you know, let's take your measurements or the kind of things that can put people in that mindset of, all right, my body is an object that's being evaluated as opposed to this is an opportunity to experience my own strength. Yeah. I guess the more we talk and the more I think about what you're saying, it's very hard not to shake off this idea that ultimately movement is very personal and we cannot be, and it's not ideal to be prescribing the same form of movement to everyone that ultimately we've all got to figure out that yes, it is's not ideal to be prescribing the same form of movement to everyone, that ultimately we've all got to figure out that yes, it is what it means to be human,

it is to move, right? And therefore, if we haven't found that type of movement yet that we love, maybe we need to go on that search for that type of movement that we love. And trust that it could actually be meaningful. I feel like so often people look for the most convenient form of exercise. Like I think there's a treadmill somewhere in my office building and I'll go and put in my time. But like, I sometimes ask people, like if someone were to send you a video on YouTube, what's the video of movement that you would actually watch and be inspired by? Do you want to see people run an obstacle course? Do you want to see people cross a finish line? Do you want to watch that choreography video? What is it that lights you up when you see other people do it? And maybe even there's a voice in

your head that says, I could never do that. Like that's the activity to move toward because it can change how you feel about yourself and what you believe is possible for your future. And again, to experiment and to listen to your direct feedback and to follow any thread of joy. I often will tell people who come to my classes for the first time, like if you have a moment in this class where you were like, oh, I see what this could be, then this class is for you and come back. Because any movement form, this was so great. Movement is a mastery and growth experience. We will pretty much always get better at it and we will always enjoy it more the more we do it. You mentioned that people often do the kind of movements that they just have access to. So

there's a treadmill in the block and it's going, put in my time. Now, isn't that an interesting phrase, put in my time? Because when I'm traveling, I don't really go to gyms much. It's just, A, I don't really have time and I found ways to move my body that doesn't require me to go to a gym. But sometimes I'm in hotels and I will, you know, if I'm up early, I'll go to the hotel gym just to see what's going on and maybe lift some weights, do something. And it's really interesting. You often see people in there who they look as though they're trying to block out the fact that they're moving. It looks as though this is a tortuous process for me. Someone's told me, or I feel I have to be on this treadmill for

an hour. So I'm going to do everything I can to numb that experience, whether it's read the newspaper, watch the news, watch Netflix. Now, look, I am not being critical here. I'm just saying what I observe. And I guess sometimes we feel we need to block out the movements that, like, we feel we have to move, but movements that like we feel we have to move, but we hate it. So we block it out. Now I'm wondering, is there any research to show that there's a difference? Let's say you're on the treadmill and you're engaged with that and you're feeling, you know, how you feel, you know, your limbs are moving and you know, how, you know, what's going on in your brain and you're sort of processing your emotions versus blocking it off

completely so you're numbing that experience. Does that movement do something different from the body in those two different examples? Yeah. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health,

how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision-making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress,

make it easier to turn new behaviors into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds

of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal, or click on the link in your podcast app. If you are looking, so there's such a thing as positive dissociation during exercise. And for some people, it's actually really important. So one of the things we know is that your brain changes when

you go from being inactive to active, that it changes in ways that makes movement not only easier, but more pleasurable. So when people first start to exercise, it often is an aversive experience. It doesn't stay that way for most people, but maybe you have to go six weeks of doing regular activity for your brain to start to really reward you for it. So in that time, positive dissociation can be really helpful. That's different than watching the news and getting angry or scrolling through and answering emails. That's where something like music can come into play or watching something really exciting on Netflix. And there's research suggesting that if you can combine movement

with something you love that is engaging, that it can actually help you stick to movement, have a more positive memory of it. But ultimately, if you can experience a state of flow in movement, that's more rewarding for most people. And it can take some time to find that, but that requires paying some attention to what you're feeling in your body, using it as information to guide your effort, enjoying sensations of feedback from your muscles and your joints and your heart that tell you, you know, I'm alive and I'm doing this. And this is how it feels to lift something heavy or to exert myself in this way. And, and often like, that's how, you know, you found the right workout for you where you can find a flow in it where you don't feel like you

need to distract yourself from it. Yeah. And you can find a flow in anything. It can be, there's no, it's not like you can only find it in some traditionally meditative experience like yoga or Tai Chi. People find their flow in all sorts of movement forms. There's so much of it that's personality and so much about what your body kind of was built for. I talked to a lot of people who told me they thought they hated exercise until they found and then fill in the blank. And maybe it was rowing or swimming. Like some people need to get in the water and they have a totally different experience of movement in their bodies. Some people needed

to get outdoors. And because of the way that nature changes your brain activity and your mood, suddenly they can find a flow walking or jogging outdoors that they could never find on a treadmill. And again, for me, it's music. Anything can become enjoyable if I have the right playlist. they can find a flow walking or jogging outdoors that they could never find on a treadmill. And again, for me, it's music. Anything can become enjoyable if I have the right playlist. We've used the terms movement and exercise a lot during this conversation so far. Can we use those terms interchangeably or are they actually different things? They do mean different things technically. I love the word exercise. I'm not scared of it. So movement is using your body to engage with life. It's almost everything, right? We talked

about it. Me talking right now is technically movement. Exercise is often defined as moving your body for the purpose of the activity that you're doing. I am running because I want to run, not because someone is chasing me. I am dancing because I want to dance, not because someone is paying me to perform on a stage, right? I'm lifting heavy things because I want to lift heavy things, not because I'm moving from one apartment to another and I have to lift heavy things. That's what exercise is. It's movement that you are choosing to do for its own sake because of its meaning, its pleasure, or its benefits to you. So I think too many people define exercise as forcing yourself to do movement you don't want to do. And like, that's not what it is. Yeah. By that definition,

exercise is not a helpful term, but by your definition, it can be a very helpful term. Do different forms of movement do different things. And what I mean by that is we've got in the common vernacular that a term, the runner's high, right? So I know you've written about this. I'd love to expand a bit on what that runner's high is and why everyone might not feel it. But also, you know, I do like to run, but I also sometimes like

to lift heavy weights. And I know if I had done a heavy deadlift and as I'm walking out of the gym, like, I don't know, you feel strong, you feel powerful, you feel like a different person walking out than the person you felt like walking in. So what is going on there? What is changing in your body? What is the runner's high? What are these endorphins that everyone talks about? Because as I read your book, Kelly, I more and more feel that reducing movement down to simply being about an endorphin high is far too simplistic. So one thing, so different forms of movement can affect your mood in two different ways. You will get different changes in your brain chemistry based on what you're doing.

And also every movement form has its own qualities. So you talked about feeling strong or powerful or confident and every movement form will bring something else out in you. And so part of how movement makes you feel is what it is that it asks you to express. Are you expressing your determination, your playfulness and creativity, your ability to cooperate with others? Movement forms will lead to different changes in what's happening in your brain. So you mentioned the runner's high. I call it a persistence high because it's a common effect in your brain. When you get your heart rate up a little bit and you're using your muscles to use energy for about 20 minutes at a moderate intensity. And it really is about continuous movement rather than about running specifically. It's just that running,

because it's so continuous, jogging actually is even a better way to get a runner's high than running. It basically tells your brain, we're doing this. And so I need a payoff to help me continue doing it. And you can get this basic high from anything that puts your body in motion and you're willing to commit to it for about 20 minutes. And it's driven, it seems to be driven not mostly by endorphins. To get a true endorphin rush from movement, you typically need to add one of three things, more intensity, other people, or music. And if you add those, you can get an endorphin rush from pretty much any type of movement. And if you add those, you can get an endorphin rush from pretty much any type of movement. But the classic runner's high is fueled by endocannabinoids, which as a brain chemical is different than endorphins in a way that I think is really interesting.

So we know that endorphins tend to basically block pain and create euphoria, which is why, by the way, with the right playlist or when you're moving with other people, that that can really make you feel euphoric because that will really give you an endorphin rush or pushing yourself to fatigue. But endocannabinoids, what they do is whatever's going on in your brain that we would think of as unpleasant, it starts to dampen it down. So endocannabinoids are basically, they modulate other systems of the brain. So if you've got pain, physical pain, if you've got stress, anxiety, anger, higher levels of

endocannabinoids are basically going to calm those things down in your brain. And endocannabinoids also facilitate anything that is pleasurable. So anything good that's happening, it's going to amp up. And one of the things that it particularly seems to amp up is the pleasures of social connection. So when endocannabinoid levels are higher, everything that's pleasurable is more pleasurable, but your story is more interesting. Your jokes are funnier. If you give me a high five, it's going to feel more satisfying. Or if you give me a hug, it's going to feel better. Or Or if you give me a hug, it's going to feel better. Or if I'm able to help you, I'm going to get more of that helper's high, that warm glow.

And I think that's really interesting because, right, so endorphins make you feel really good. It's like a high. But the runner's high is more about sort of putting you into a brain state that allows you to be a good version of yourself in community. And there's a lot of like anthropological speculation about why that would be, but the idea is basically human beings, we are adapted to be physically active and cooperate in communities. And as soon as you are moving your body and getting your heart rate up, your brain is like, oh, right, we're hunting, we're foraging, we're gathering. And then we need to bring it back to our tribe and we need to share with one another. And we need to feel good about the fact that I just spent two hours out in the field gathering food and now

I'm giving it away to other people so that they can eat. And that's what the runner's high is. so that they can eat. And that's what the runner's high is. It's a brain state that allows you to sustain optimism and effort. And that makes you enjoy connecting with other people even more. And this is why exercise is like the best reset you can do for yourself. Because just imagine, like every time you exercise, you're becoming that version of yourself. you exercise, you're becoming that version of yourself. I mean, I'm blown away listening to this, Kelly. It's putting a lot of the pieces together that people kind of intuitively feel, but you're giving some of those mechanisms and some of the science behind why they feel the way that they feel. You know, I love looking at things through an evolutionary lens and it makes sense when you look at why would it cause these things in the

body? Yeah, it would bring us together. It would help us with our tribe, with our community. But one of my favorite bits in the book is when you talk about the Hatsa tribe and what goes on and how much they move per day. And also how their elderly tend to move. They tend to move more as they get older, I think I read. Yeah, you continue to be an active part of your community. This is one of the last hunter-gatherer societies. And I think the research is that they are moderately to vigorously active for a couple hours a day. That's like that higher intensity activity.

And then another couple of hours of sort of lighter to moderate activity, like walking around. And, you know, the evolutionary idea is that this is how humans survived. We were willing to exert ourselves because the climate changed and humans had to do that in order to feed themselves. And we were willing to cooperate and share. And, you know, one of the themes of the research as I experienced it and in talking to people is that you really, they are so connected. The rewards that we get from playing an active role in our lives, literally active, being engaged, exerting ourselves, pursuing meaningful goals, And the rewards that we get from connecting with other people and being part of a community, they are so connected that it's one of the reasons why

people who are physically active are less lonely. They have better relationships with other people. There's something about being sedentary that makes it more difficult to be that version of ourselves that thrives in community. And I don't mean, that sounds, I don't want to shame anyone who doesn't exercise or feels like they can't for physical or mental health reasons. And yet at the same time, I feel like it's really important to express this message that to whatever degree you can move your body, it makes you a different version of yourself that it's not even just better for other people. It allows you to experience that core human joy of interdependence. Yeah. I mean, Kelly, we've both written books on stress and we know very well that exercise helps make us more resilient to stress. And one of the things I loved

reading about in the book was how those areas of the brain that help us manage stress, the prefrontal cortex, the amygdala, have got relatively high concentrations for endocannabinoids. Yes. And oxytocin, which is something else that can get released from exercise. Yeah. So, okay. So how exercise helps us with stress, it is both on that short term. So if you're feeling stressed out, you're feeling anxious or angry, it's going to change your brain chemistry in a way that gives you more hope and more energy. That's the common denominator. That's the feel better effect. But also we know that people who are regularly active, it actually changes the structure and the function of their brains in ways that basically teaches the brain how to be resilient to stress

and also more sensitive to joy. So you're going to have an increased availability of dopamine and endocannabinoid and endorphin receptors. Your brain is basically going to say, oh, I guess we can experience joy and meaning in life and hope and optimism. So let's just be ready for it in a way that increases people's mood and joy in a much more generalized way. But the one thing I wanted to make sure we talk about, I mentioned it once, myokines, which I think is the most exciting area of research in terms of how exercise affects stress resilience and mental health, is this new observation. And forgive me, I don't know if you've talked about this on your podcast yet, have you?

No, I haven't. Okay, great. Let me be the one who gives the good news. So just in the last decade or so, biologists have realized that our muscles are basically an endocrine organ. And just like your pituitary gland, your adrenal glands, they can synthesize and pump out proteins and peptides into your bloodstream that affect every system of your body. So your muscles will manufacture these proteins and peptides, and they basically release them into your bloodstream when you contract your muscles in a regular and continuous way. So any them kill cancer cells. Some of them reduce inflammation. Some of them are good for your immune function. They're good for your cardiovascular health.

Some of them help you regulate blood sugar. So a lot of scientists now think myokines are the reason that exercise is good for your health and prevents every kind of disease. It reduces your risk. I mean, we're all going to get something, but it reduces your risk. But what I'm so fascinated by as a psychologist is some of these myokines have their strongest effects on your brain. So let's say you go for a walk or you're lifting weights and your muscles are pumping these chemicals

out into your bloodstream that can cross your blood-brain barrier. And in your brain, their primary effect is to act as an antidepressant and to change the structure of your brain in their primary effect is to act as an antidepressant and to change the structure of your brain in ways that make you more resilient to stress, whether that's changes to your hippocampus or your prefrontal cortex. And some of the first researchers who wrote about this called them hope molecules because they're like, huh. But well, in part,

it's for these horrible studies that I don't particularly endorse where you traumatize rodents. And then you either have them exercise or you literally inject them with some of these myokines. And what you find is they don't become traumatized and depressed psychologically in the way that they normally would if you traumatize them. And so they're like, huh, it's like your muscles are manufacturing hope molecules when you exercise. huh, it's like your muscles are manufacturing hope molecules when you exercise. And this to me is like the miracle of the human form. The idea that your muscles can manufacture antidepressants and they will deliver them to your brain when you exercise. And it's all of your muscles. So if you can't use your legs, you can use your arms. If you can't use your arms, maybe you can brace your core.

If you can move any muscles, your muscles will release these chemicals that support your health and support your brain resilience. And it's something that you can choose, even if you don't have access to other forms of mental health care. It's miraculous and that your muscles know how to do it. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible. I tell you what pops into my head. I was thinking about elderly people who maybe are immobile and have sat down for a lot of the day and maybe have lost their balance. I'm thinking, well, maybe they can have a couple of light dumbbells next to their chair and yeah, maybe their legs aren't working, but maybe if every day they, at some point, you know, for five, 10 minutes, just rock out a few bicep curls, you're going to be releasing those myocardial, you're going to be getting those

hope molecules. You're going to be having all these changes to your mood, your physiology, your inflammation. And the literal structure of your brain. I mean, you literally are building a different brain. Yeah. So to really try and think about making this accessible to everyone, even people who maybe are sedentary might be able to do something like that to get some of these benefits. And I think that's incredibly empowering for people. Yeah. And then, so, you know, I've been really curious about this because a lot of the early research was looking at higher intensity exercise and, um, and athletes. And there does seem to be a bit of a dose response relationship where anything you do is going to release these positive myokines, any form of movement.

When you go from zero to anything, this is, this is why I think we know that people who move for 10 minutes a day have reduced risk of mortality. It's everything counts. And also, the more you do, the longer you do it and the harder it is, the more your muscles release myokines. And I think this explains why a lot of people who are recovering from addiction, recovering from depression, recovering from who are recovering from addiction, recovering from depression, recovering from grief, recovering from stroke, because of how it enhances your brain's ability to recover, many people find that actually intensity is like upping your dose of a medicine that's really good for you. And I feel like it's important to point both of those out because I can't tell you how

many people I spoke to who needed to find for themselves a certain level of intensity that was almost like a switch was flipped in their psychological wellbeing. And so this is that, in the great tradition of improv, it's yes, end. Yes, do anything and it will help you. And also the, to the degree that you are choosing to push to the level of intensity that challenges you, um, you can really have dramatic changes in your mental health and your brain health. Yeah. Incredible. Really, really incredible. Kelly, I know you, you do have to get a flight shortly. Uh, we have a bit of time and there's no way I could have a bit of time and there's no way I could have a conversation with you and not talk about compassion.

Oh, yes. So I know you've done a lot of research in this area. You studied it for a while and compassion and kindness in general is something I think a lot about. I think about what is needed more today than ever in the world is kindness. I feel we're missing it. We're lacking it. Social media seems to allow people, seems to give people free reign to sort of be slightly anonymous and behave in a way that we would never behave with people face to face. And as, you know, I try and promote compassion and think that it's one of the most important things that we can, if we want to be the change that is out there in the world, we need to start being compassionate in all of our interactions. And I'm wondering how exercise

plays into compassion because we're a sedentary world now. We sit down all day, we sit down on transport, we don't need to move to get our food. We can order food on our phones now. You know, the way we're living as human beings has changed fundamentally. And if being sedentary can make us depressed and anxious, well, can being sedentary also make us lacking in compassion and make us angry and make us want to attack people. And maybe movement, increasing our movement is going to help us be a bit more compassionate to ourselves, but to the world around us. I mean, it definitely can for reasons, both biochemical and psychological and social. You know, so there are a lot of barriers to compassion. First of all is being the recipient of compassion and social safety.

So when we talk about the world becoming less compassionate, it's not because there's something like deeply broken about individuals. We know that human beings have competing instincts. We have tremendous courage and willingness to be kind and to help others. courage and willingness to be kind and to help others. And also we have very strong instincts to protect ourselves, to be wary of strangers, to avoid suffering and conflict. And so what compassion often requires of us is to feel safe, to feel cared for, and to feel brave. And so one of the ways that exercise can help us access our compassion and kindness is to give us experiences of our own strength and courage. So for example, one of my longtime meditation teachers focuses on compassion meditation, and I was so surprised to

find out that she does kickboxing. You would think that's really strange. She's a Zen meditation teacher and she does kickboxing, but she often talks about compassion is about active engagement with things that are difficult. So what better way to tap into your own compassion instinct than to feel fierce and brave and strong and powerful and know how to use energy. So sometimes exercise allows us to deepen our compassion just by allowing ourselves to trust ourselves, to be able to channel and harness energy, and also to feel more connected to others to the degree that movement gives you a community of belonging, that movement changes your brain chemistry in ways that literally makes

eye contact feel safer. Exercise can make it feel easier to receive the help and kindness of others. I talked to a lot of people in this book who found through movement the first place where it felt safe to acknowledge your own vulnerabilities and receive the help of others. And when you can experience what it's like to receive the kindness of others, it also makes you more willing to extend that to others. So it's very complicated in ways that I think are almost always, and we started this conversation talking about an upward spiral. I think that if you set the intention, if you say that my movement practice is part of how I want to cultivate deeper self-compassion and compassion, I'm not sure it will always do it.

But if you have that as one of your intentions, there are so many ways that movement can support your desire to be a more compassionate force in the world. Yeah. Kelly, I love it. I wish we had another two hours to keep talking because there is just so much to tap into here. I think you've written a wonderful book. I really do. I think, you know, I hope everyone listening to this goes out and buys the book. I think it's brilliant. I think if you are someone who loves to move, I think it's going to show you why. It's going to make you want to wax lyrical about it and tell more people. But I actually also believe that if you are someone who struggles with movements,

people. But I actually also believe that if you are someone who struggles with movements, I actually do believe that by reading this book, it's going to help, I think, inspire someone to go, hey, you know what? Maybe I've been looking at this all wrong. Maybe actually I'm just going to start by putting on one of my favourite tunes and see how I want to move in the comfort of my own room with nobody watching. I'm just going to get moving and see what kind of ripple effect, what kind of upward spiral might be able to start in that individual's life. So I want to thank you for that, Kelly. I want to thank you for making time to come see me today. Kelly, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More, right? So when we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. And you've very beautifully made the case that when we move more, we're going to get more out of our lives. We've covered lots of different things

today, but I always love to lead the listener with some really practical tips, things that they can think about applying in their own life immediately. Not next week, not next month, but immediately to start transforming the way that they feel. So there are a lot of different kinds of people listening to this podcast, but I wonder, have you got some pearls of wisdom to finish off this conversation? Yeah. So if you are thinking about adding movement into your life, one thing I like people to think about is that it is a reset. It's an immediate reset for your mood and your brain chemistry. And so to think about when in your life you want to flip that switch and get a reset and set an appointment for yourself to move.

For me, because of my temperament, I wake up anxious. I don't wake up like birds singing. I wake up, I'm like, oh, bleep, I have to get up and do this again. So for me, I exercise first thing in the morning, even though I don't want to, because I know that that's a reset for me. And I really encourage people to think, if you know that exercise is a reset,

it's gonna make you the best version of yourself, to start to think about putting any dose of movement into that. Maybe it's the transition from work to home. So I spoke with a police officer who trains other officers and they actually do their most important exercise in the transition between serving and going home because they want to leave behind some of the vigilance and intensity that they need on the job to go home to be with their family in a different way. So it's most important for them to exercise in that transition

so that they can go home and be more open in a way that they want to be with their family. And for me, it's in the morning. So that's one thing I would think about. Absolutely create a playlist to move to, unless you are like one of the 10% of people who just aren't that moved by music, but most people are.

And to put together a playlist that inspires you to move. And the other thing I would say is so many people get an immediate benefit from moving outdoors. If you are somebody who thinks you don't like to exercise, if there's any natural environment where you feel safe in, and it doesn't have to be the wilderness, it could be any green space. For me, my favorite places outdoors are actually waterfronts in urban areas where I can see a skyline and the blue sky and some ducks in the river or something. To spend time outdoors will often be the most powerful way for people to immediately connect to the psychological benefits of movement. Yeah. I love it, Kelly. Thank you so, so much.

Your favorite track to move to? Oh my gosh. There are too many. If you have to choose one? Right now, I am loving Move Your Body by Sea is one of my theme songs and Higher Love, the Whitney Houston remake. Love it. That's very popular right now. Love it. Well, what a great place to finish Kelly. If people want to stay in touch with you on social media, do you do social media? And if so, where should they find you? I'm on Instagram and Spotify. I put all my, my playlists for my classes. Um, and there are some playlists inspired by the book. Um, so I'm Kelly Marie McGonigal on both Instagram and Spotify and on Twitter and Facebook, Kelly McGonigal. Fantastic. And for people listening, for people watching on YouTube, we will link to

all of those links, the Spotify playlist, which I can't wait to find myself. I actually asked on social media, the song you most want to move to. And I have an amazing playlist from people all over the world, all ages, the songs they most want to move to. So if you're looking for inspiration, that's a great, great playlist to go to. Oh, fantastic. I'm going to do that. And actually when this podcast comes out, maybe that's something we'll do on social media for that week is actually ask people what is their song to move to. So that's a nice idea to bring people together and start sharing their experiences. Kelly, safe journey back. Thank you so much. It's a brilliant book. And I really hope

we have the opportunity to have another conversation on this podcast at some point in the future. I want to come to the UK. Do it. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, do think about one thing that you can take away and start applying into your own life. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming,

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