How To Build & Maintain Successful Relationships & The Surprising Ways That Technology Can Help with Mo Gawdat #598
00:00Of everything I've done, I've never in my life felt closer to actually fixing something in the world.Emma, I think, is going to fix something.It's an attempt to teach AI about what makes us human, which is lovely.If Emma itself succeeds, we would have saved the world.Hey guys, how you doing?I hope you're having a good week so far.My name is Dr. Rongan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast.Feel better, live more.
00:30Modern life gives us endless ways to connect with others.So why is it that many of us struggle to build loving and supportive relationships?This week, I'm joined once again by Mo Gowdatz for the second part of our inspiring two-part conversation.Mo, as you will know, if you listen to last week's episode, is the former chief business officer of Google X and the author of multiple bestselling books.including Sol for Happy, but he is also a world-leading expert in technology and artificial intelligence.Last week, the bulk of our conversation was focused on happiness and navigating adversity.But in today's episode, a continuation of where we left off last week, we turn our attention towards love,what it really is, why it can seem so challenging, and how greater self-awareness can be transformative.
01:30Now, a significant part of our conversation this week focuses on Emma, the AI companion that Mo has built and believes can solve one of humanity's greatest problems.His hope is that Emma will help people understand themselves better and approach relationships with greater emotional clarity.I recognize that you may feel skeptical about the idea that technology can help us with something that is so deep.deeply human, the quality of our social relationships.But if you listen with an open mind, I think Mo's ideas might just shift your thinking.Moe explains that Emma is not designed to replace human relationships, but to support them by improving communication, breaking unhelpful patterns, and encouraging deeper connection.You see, Mo believes that love is actually very simple.It's relationships that prove so deep.
02:30difficult, and in this conversation, we explore the many reasons why people struggle in this domain.As always, Mo brings a depth of understanding to a topic that is so important to us all.And what he does so brilliantly is remind us that at the heart of any meaningful relationshiplies compassion, honesty, and a deeper understanding of ourselves.I know you're here to talk about AI, and you're here to talk about, I don't even know how to describe Emma.I mean, who is Emma?Of everything I've done, I've never in my life felt closer to actually fixing something in the world.Emma, I think, is going to fix something.
03:22And remember, I worked at Google for a very long time.I got Google to 4 billion people in the world and started the internet and e-commerce as a result.So I had impact, never anything like Emma.Emma is my attempt to fix two of the biggest problems.One is love and relationships, right,in a way that actually genuinely wants love to survive and thrive, right?Unlike most dating apps in the world todayor most, you know, dating methods in the world today.
03:50But more interestingly, it's an attempt to teach AIabout what makes us human, which is love.Okay.And so the mix of those two would end up helping humanity remove one of the biggest reasons of unhappiness and at the same time helping AI truly understand our reality, not as they see it in the news if you want.Okay, this is super exciting. So let's just pause there a second. Let's say someone was listening to this and they don't have a clue what AI is.what's your best attemptto simplify, before we getinto what Emma's going to do,
04:27what is AI?Best question ever, by the way,because most people don't really know.People think that we have createda better version of Google.We haven't, okay?We've completely redesignedthe way we code machines
04:44so that the AIs of todaycompletely mimic the human brain.So the very original start of thatwas one of my dear colleagues at Google, Jeffrey Hinton.Jeffrey's a psychologist.This guy is a good computer scientist, if you want.In 1986, he attempted to create a model of the brain on a computer system, okay?Not to create AI, but to understand how the brain works, right?
05:09And that model is what we used eventually to create machines that behave like a human brain.Right?So the way human brains work is we create neural networks of things, you know,associated with certain behaviors or certain thoughts and so on and so forth.And we strengthen the networks that are useful and we diminish the ones that are not.That's exactly how AI does things.And so, you know, if you want to compare traditional computing and artificial intelligence,you have to imagine a child where you give a puzzle to the child and then tell them,
05:45Okay, take that piece and turn it 90 degrees, put it in the top right corner, and then take another piece and turn it 180 degrees and put it next to it.And if the child follows those orders, the child would solve the puzzle, but it wouldn't make them smart at all.This, as a matter of fact, would make a child dumber and dumber and dumber over time.And that's what we did with traditional computing.And traditional computing, I, the programmer, would solve the problem and then they'll tell the computer to do it over and over and over.So the smart one is the person coding and the machine is totally dumb.In artificial intelligence, basically you have to imagine a childwhere you give them a puzzle and leave the room
06:24and tell them, keep trying until you figure it out.And then eventually the child solves the puzzleand every other puzzle.As a matter of fact, a child becomes able to create new puzzlesif he wanted to.And that's what we created.What we created with reinforcement learning,with transformers and so on,
06:43is a completely autonomous form of intelligencethat is like and will beat human intelligencein every possible way.Okay.Thank you.Now, you've also mentioned that you think Emma can solve,I think you said two of the biggest problems,love and relationships.
07:05Yeah.So love and relationships are not the same thing.Correct.Thank you for saying that.Right?So I guess, first of all, what is the difference we love in relationships?And do we conflate the two?Is that why there's so much struggle in relationships, number one?
07:23But then number two, what is going on in the world that you believe needs fixing in respect to those two things?So let's agree that, I mean, we're still, we don't want to market Emma at all.So, you know, we're sometimes thinking of the slogan of Emma.Right. But, you know, one of the things that we...Who is Emma?Emma is an AI that is not one AI.It's a very, very diverse group of AI.It's working together obsessed with you.
07:54Okay?They want you to, if you're in a relationship,to understand and learn and find joy in your relationshipand nurture your love so that this relationship lasts for longerand feels better and empowers, you know,the two sides of the relationship, right?If you're single, it wants to understand you so deeplyand help you understand yourself
08:20so that instead of the meat market's phenomena of,of, you know, dating apps where you are just swiping on looks, basically,it actually gets to know you enough,gets to talk to you enough,gets to help you know yourself enoughto be able to tell you, I found one guy or one ladythat matches you. Okay? And basically gives you the closest match, tells you openly, this person we thinkis an 87% match for what we know about you. Those things are perfectly amazing between you.
08:55Those things you guys need to work on. Those things are not matching at all. You know,do you want to meet them? Okay, okay. I've got so many questions, right? So hold on. So let's justquickly go through the difference between love and relationships. Yeah. And then let me just go throughthat sequentially as my brain sees it. Yeah. So love is very easy to feel, okay? It's very difficultto feel it for the right person if you don't know who yourself, who you are. Okay. So if you,if your, if your perception of love is a story told for you from romantic comedies, okay? Good luckfinding a relationship that works, right? If your, if your perception of love is something that yourbest friend told you is what you deserve, good luck, you know, seeing if that actually exists
09:44or not.If your perception of a high value partner is what they tell you in dating apps, then you'rereally going to end up falling in love over and over and over with the wrong person, right?And love itself is almost the energy that makes us human, okay?So we, by definition, want to love and be loved.This is the ultimate goal of a human.By the way, even if you're a narcissist and a serial killer, okay?They do that because they want to be accepted in society.
10:15It's so hardwired within us, okay?They just don't get that they're doing the wrong thing,but they do it everyone wants to fit in,everyone wants to love and be loved.Relationships as a definition from an engineer, a mathematician like myself,is the most complex mathematical model on the planet.As a matter of fact, interestingly, that's why nobody, you know, tackles it.It is so complex because there are so many parameters and so many moving parts to a relationship that we humans either settle, okay, or fail.
10:51And it's quite interesting, you know, if you look at the statistics, they're staggering.Emma, by the way, we reject those who want hookups, you know, those who want a one-night stand, those who want, you know,games or whatever, we designed Emma as a place for those who are actually looking for genuinelove. So by definition, you have already filtered 90% of the issue. But then when you get there,you're trying to guide humans, only human, into the complexity of how many parameters affectyou, your traumas, your background, your desires, your conditioning, your, your, and you think it'spossible to put all those metrics in. Not by a human, but by the intelligence of AI.I mean, this is so fascinating. It really is. Honestly. Hold on a minute. So we're basically saying
11:45humans have been on this earth for a long time now. And maybe there's a fundamental flawin how we try and find love, which perhaps this new superintelligence is going to help us solve.and if it does, then we've also taughtthat superintelligencethe most valuable thing on the planet.So hold on, however.That assumption is not true.There were times
12:11where love was much easier than this.Yeah.Right?Let's take some numbers.Today in the modern world,one of every three adults surveyed,33% of adults surveyedwill say they've never had a committed relationship.
12:26Okay?The average age of a committed relationshipis down to 2.3 years, right?So even those who choose to commit will end their relationships within 2.3 years, right?Divorce rates in the Western world are one in two.So people, but by the way, those who choose, the adults that choose to get into marriage are now down from around 74% of all adults in the 60s to less than 47% today.And those who choose to get into marriage, one of every two will end their marriage.Okay. The result of that, if you think about family, for example, is that around 20 to 30 percent
13:08depending on the country of women above 40 are childless, okay? 25 percent of children are raisedwith one parent, right? If you take things like infidelity, like, you know, cheating, interestinglyin the last 10 years, women are catching up with men, so 40 percent increase in cheatingwith women in committed relationships, 15 to 20%.So one of every two people you know,one of every five people you know is actually cheating.Okay.All right.
13:41All of that is in the Western world.Let me give you one statistic that will shock you.If you, so we use the statistics of one in every two marriages end,but not everyone ends up in marriage.So if you use the statistics of body count, okay,and the number of lifetime partners on average in the West,somewhere between 95 to 96.7% of all relationships end.That is a massive reconditioning of society.
14:13Now, go to India and one in a hundred marriages ends up in divorce, right?Of course, there are two Indians.There is ruler India and there is the big cities.The big cities, it's one in three, still better than one in two, right?But can we assume from that top line statistic that those marriages in India that are not ending up in divorce, we can't also assume that they are happy relationships?100%. So that is exactly the core of what Emma is trying to do. So I am not naive enough to assume that, you know, this is just because we're doing it wrong. It's also because the West has different aspirations to a relationship, right?So, you know, an arranged marriage in India, which is one in 99, one in a hundred succeeds, so it fails, sorry, and 99 succeed, is not really the marriage we're looking for here in the West, okay?It's not the committed relationship we're looking here for in the West.
15:14We're looking for romance.They're looking for compatibility, right?You know, the families decide while here it's up to the couple to decide, you know, here it's convenience.So because we're so busy working, we want to swipe to find a partner.There, it's an immense system.By the way, one of the big differences in the West is that the system of love and dating in the West is rigged against the lovers.Because a dating app benefits from you failing to find the lover because then you're going to pay another month of subscription.A restaurant wants you to come on another date and another date and another date and another date.
15:53Even wedding, you know, planners could make more money if you got married twice in a lifetime, not once, right?So the system is literally rigged against you and lots of other things.The interesting difference, however, is that the method of arranged marriage is a method that is attentive and very, very deep in terms of its looking for things that actually work between the two.as per the objective of the arranged marriage.The aspirations of the West are beautiful,but the method is working against you.So can I use the method of attentive analysisto apply it to the objectives that we want here
16:40and manage to tell you, by the way,I can talk about myself, by the way,because of your travel lifestyle, consistent travel,you actually cannot afford to be with a womanthat needs you to be there all the timewhich by the way again as a manin my experience after my first marriageI was always looking for a woman that I felt needed me
17:04that I felt missed me that I felt rightbut maybe that's not what I'm gearedto create a good relationship withmy last relationship endedmainly because of the long distance side of it rightwonderful human being inEvery way, in my mind, I felt, yeah, this is exactly what I need in a woman.But those tiny little details, you can only figure out when you really dig deep and say,
17:33I want this, but can I manage this?Or I want this, but can she manage that side of me?Or I want this, but are we compatible?So, for example, I'll give you the top example.A masculine man wants a very feminine woman.Within Emma, the mathematics will sayif a very feminine woman and a very masculine manhave no communication skills,
18:00they're probably going to kill each other.So if their communication skills are not very high,we need them to be a little more alike.They can't be that extremeso that at least they overlap on certain things.But if they have incredible communication skills,then they can benefit from the polarityof being so different
18:22so that they are more as a wholethan if they were closer to each other.Okay, so as you were describingthis idea that we didn't always have problemswith love and relationships.Okay, so it strikes me as though we didn't always,we now do, and so we're looking to technologyto try and solve something
18:45that is a problem of the modern world.And the analogy I could give is a Zenpik and the GLP1 agonists, right?Which are blowing up.And, you know, there's people for it, there's people against it.But in essence, we never used to have a problem with obesity for hundreds of thousands of years.Humans have now created these modern civilized worlds with toxic food environments.Correct.So the norm now is to be overweight and obese.
19:17and so we're now trying to solve a problem that we've created,by the way we've created the world, with a pill.That's not what we're doing here at all.Okay, sure.So just, yeah, so help me understand that.So are we saying that in the past there were good times,but maybe not optimal times?So the modern world has shown up and revealed some of the problems that exist
19:44with how we actually try and form these long-term relations,And can we now using AI, can we actually now help people find an even better version of relationships than we've ever had before?For sure.Absolutely.But it's not a pill.A pill is the wrong answer.Okay?The right answer is for me to tell the person that's obese with clarity, why is it that they're obese and what changes they can have in their lifestyle to get back to a healthy lifestyle.
20:17Now, the problem is because obesity and fitness in general is a very complex problem, okay?You may be able to tackle it if you focus on all nutrition that come into your body,but also on rest and you can have to, you need to get a personal trainer.And if you have very specific weaknesses in your own body, like your joints are not,your training regime has to change and so on, it's a complex design.But when you get it right, it works.100%.Correct.
20:46that's Emma, that's exactly Emma.So Emma wants you to work on you, okay?There is absolutely no pill I can give youto fix your relationships.But there is a way, so one of the interesting ideasis, you know, communication.She comes to you and she says,should I put on the dress or the skirt?
21:06Okay, what you hear in your mind as a man is what?Okay.Oh my God, anything I'll say is wrong.Right?But then you look and you say,oh, that skirt looks so hot on her.So you say, I think you should take the skirt.She hears it as, oh, he doesn't even care.
21:23He just chose one, right?Can Emma help you to understand that the reason she asked that question, by the way,is because she felt a little insecure.She wanted to look beautiful when she's going out with you today.And the reason you, you know, can she understand that the reason you pick the skirtis because you genuinely thinks she's very hot.So Emma's going to help you almost get to know yourself,but it's almost like a personal relationship coach in some ways.
21:52We don't want to use that term.But in a very interesting way, it is an awareness guide.An awareness guide.So let me give you, let's talk about the typical scenario.Let's assume your thing.By the way, it's not a dating app.Dating, it does have a dating component to it.But the dating component, Emma, if you want the design, is opposite.
22:14assessed with true love. So her entire target in life is to help you nurture and enjoy true love.But if you're single, she needs to go through the dating phase to get you there. Right. So datingis just part of it. Now, imagine if you're, let's take the simplest thing. You, you download Emma and you sign on and she will, you know, greet you and say, hey, I'm Emma. I'm excited to meet you.you know, I'm, my purpose in life is to help you with genuine true love.You know, this is how we're going to work on it, da, da, da, da.Are you single, right?That's the first question and you're going to say yes or no.If you say, I'm single, she will ask you a few more questions.
22:52If you say, no, I'm in a relationship, she would say,would you like to add your partner to this so that we can work the three of us together, right?But eventually, after four or five qualifying questions, your age, you know, what you'reinterested in, what gender you identify as and so on, she will say,Okay, tell me about your love life, right?That's it.Tell me about your love life.You can say, yeah, I've been single for this long,
23:18and, you know, I really feel insecure about this,and the conversation will go.So most of our testers, interestingly,we would give them Emma to do 10-minute tasks,and they'd normally chat with her for an hour and a half, right?Because it's so eye-opening when you talk to someonewho's not judging you, okay,who's really giving you the ability to reflect on your own,
23:38who's giving you the perspective of the other person, right, in a way that's not threateningat all.This reminds me I've had some conversations over the last six months with various healthtech companies.Yeah.And it was really interesting to me that actually the feedback from some of these bighealth tech companies is that actually people really feel that they can be honest, can talk freely,and it's really helping motivate lifestyle change better than if it was a human.
24:05Yeah.Which is super interesting, isn't it?In terms of the world in which we're going.Because most of us have been taught to pretend.Yeah.Even when people go to their therapist, you know,it takes them a very long time to actually say the real issue.Yeah.
24:20Okay.But hold on, huh?So there are, however, differences between Emma and AI,which I think are really key to understand.Emma will not agree with you.It's not going to tell you, oh my God, that's amazing.It's good that you shouted at him.She's not going to tell you that, right?
24:37As a matter of fact,will hold you accountable.So basically, in a nice way,she will look for things we have,one of the modules is related to empathy.So she will look for things where you will say,my partner did A, B, and C, okay?I really can't stand that anymore.
24:55And Emma will ask and say,what do you think your partner's perspectiveof that situation was?Okay.You know, what did you dothat he would have been writing to me now?Okay. And so things like that, Emma will eventually, you know, not eventually, but frequentlystop and say, your last comment means that you maybe don't have a good grasp of love languages.
25:18Would you like me to explain that to you? Right. And so she's not there to agree with you.This is genius because actually, if it's a human, your conditioning comes in, right? People getdefensive. Like you don't know that. You're like, but you're not going to do that with this kind of,is it text or is it voice?We have both, but we found that text is actually really more...Yeah, you're probably going to be more honest to the point.And if they say, well, what's your partner's perspective here?Actually, you're more likely to go, yeah, that's a good point.
25:51Even if it was your best mate saying that, you might be pissed off with your best mate.You go like, why are you asking about him? Are you on their side of your mind?Whereas with, because when we set this conversation up and I knew we were going to be talking about this, um,I was thinking in my head, it was like, okay, I can't wait to talk about this, because in my head, I'm thinking, well, what can technology really offer here, right? These kind of, you know, the human experience of love and relationships. Do you know what I mean? I was, I wouldn't say I was skeptical, but in my head I was, awareness. Awareness, yeah, non-judgmental awareness.Most of the challenges in life, so, so, you know, my last relationship is with a woman I really deeply love. And we both wanted to make it.work, right? But, but, you know, you take something like the long distance side of thatrelationship. And Hannah really, really highlighted this to me that I, you know me, I travelso much that getting on a plane on a Monday and another one on a Monday evening and another one
26:54on a Tuesday and another one on a Wednesday is normal life to me, right? She sat with meand said, no, this is not normal at all.Your lifestyle is manic.It's very painful.Nobody can keep up with this.And even if I wanted to travel with youbecause we can enjoy travel together,this is not even travel what you're doing.
27:15And you have to understand that the real objective,the real upside of relationshipsis when your partner is a mirror.A mirror that basically shows you what you don't see.And the more you see,the more you will be able to,you know, to understand, again, you know, my, my last relationship, Hannah and I, you know,I wanted her so much, which is very unlike me to the point that, you know, it's like me to
27:43want to be with the woman I'm with, but it's unlike me to change myself so that I am to protect,you know, I felt afraid to lose her. So sometimes I wouldn't share enough. I wouldn't be vulnerable.I would think too much about what I'm telling her, which basically hid who I am. And, and she basicallybasically, you know, at the end of our, you know, last few conversations as a couple,she was basically saying, I didn't want any of that. I wanted the real you. Okay. And I'm an olderman. I am mature. I am able to to understand women really deeply. Okay. But even at my age,at my experience, at my level of maturity, there's always something that you see, okay,that changes who you are in a relationship.
28:30And I think that the problem we have in our worldis that when we go to our friends,they tell us what we want to hear, right?They don't tell us what would hurt us.When we go to our, when we sit alone,we reiterate our own stories, okay?And when our partners tell us what they're going through,we take it as an attack on ourselves.
28:53And so some third party engaged in thiscan make a massive difference, okay?Some third party that, by the way, does not give you a flood of pictures to swipe onbecause if we know up front that this guy, handsome as he is, is not a good match for, you know,a woman using the app, okay?He might be a great match for another one, but not for this one.Why are we showing him to her in the first place?You know, thank you for sharing stuff from your own personal life, Mo.
29:23if you were interacting with Emmawhen you were having these conversationsin your last relationship,would Emma have asked you things like, for example,why are you travelling so much, Mo?What is it within you that needs to be,you know, what is it that drives you to travellike your ex-partner described like,
29:53a madman, right?Thanks, Rangan, yes.No, no, is that what you just said?I know, I do. I think you did.I guess I'm really trying to understandbecause... No, no, no, I'm not offended.I'm joking with you.But that was really, it was very powerful.
30:07And I'm thinking, if at that timeyou were interacting with Emma,would Emma have kind of seen thatand being like, hey, listen,your partner doesn't really want someonewho's on the road the entire time.Are you sure you want to be on the roadthe entire time?
30:22what's going on within you? When did you start going on the road? What does that do for you?Etcetera, et cetera.This episode is brought to you by AirB&B.Now, at the moment, I'm starting to plan next year's summer holiday with my family.And I know full well that for us, the places we choose to stay in can make a massive difference.We just love staying somewhere that gives us a chance.time and space to just hang out together, whether that be to chat, read books or play cards.Now, last summer, as part of my Australian tour, we stayed in a gorgeous Airbnb in Nusa,
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34:04creating her ourselves makes me and send at their first at first users right so I'm having thoseconversations with Emma and and it's mind-blowing what she shares right but interestingly when I washaving those conversations with Hannah my wonderful ex when she said those things I felt offendedI felt attacked do you understand yeah you know I felt and I say that you know with humblenessbecause I assume my responsibility in how we ended up here right and and I felt when she said thosethings that I deserve a woman that supports my lifestyle.I'm doing this for the world.I'm there, you know, to help with one billion happy.
34:47I'm doing something important.Why is she not supporting me on it?That's the absolute wrong mindset.It's the absolute wrong understanding of why I'm, you know, and believe it or not,if I had managed to, you know, to nurture a love life that nurtured me, okay?I may have, like we said earlier, I may be doing less, but doing it better, right?And I think what happens in our world, and I, again, I mean, I have big hopes that this will changeeverything, right?
35:24Even if Emma itself gets copied by the big players and they crush us, we will have changedthe way that love is offered in the modern world, because one of the biggest challenges of lovein the modern world is that it has become a capitalist pursuit.With the modern dating apps.Correct.Yeah, what's interesting as I think about that.And the sheet you've, you know, you've shared with me about, you know, why we failin dating and, you know, what are the problems about these, you know, what you call
35:54commercial love, the currency of window shopping, the end of courtship, the meat marketsyndrome, right?The paradox of choice.I've often felt that I was lucky to meet Vid my wifebefore all of that.All this started, right?Because, you know, some of my best mates,I saw not meet someone as early as I did
36:19and be on that dating app train.It's a nightmare.And, you know, one of my mates would go on it for a few monthsand then you just kept bored, worn out by it.But I was thinking about this,because I've never experienced that.I've never done that.And I thought, you know,
36:38and I wonder how this plays into Emma as well, right?So, as you know, you've met my wife several times.I've been married for, you know, about 18 years now.And funnily enough, I met her on a blind date, right?The first and only blinded I've ever been on.You're so lucky, by the way.Yeah, I really am.And what's really interesting is that I met her on a blind date
37:10and it was like a whirlwind romance.It was just full of passion and romance.And after three months, I proposed.So I had mates of mine who were already engaged before I met her.And I proposed after three months.I married her after eight months.right? So I had mates who were like,mate, well, you know, I proposed to my girlfriends
37:38and you hadn't even met Fitz. And we haven't even sought out our marriage yetand you've started dating her, you proposed to her, and you married her.And what's really interesting, as me and Vid reflects on our relationship,I can tell you multiple reasons why we should not be together.Especially in the early days, right?But they're all irrelevant because there's an essence to me and Vid that we both believewill mean that we're together for the duration of our life here in this iteration of it, okay?Now, how do I possibly know that?
38:19I can't prove to you that I know that, but I feel I have a deep knowing that me and Vid aremeant to be together.So what I'm coming around to is, I met her, we went for dinner, we went to a bar afterwards, and we're chatting.And if I had met her on a dating app, right, I can't even imagine what that would be, but, you know, let's use the analogy of communication.We know that the vast majority of human communication is nonverbal. Some studies say,even 80% is non-verbal, but I've seen it as low as 50% or 45%.But basically, at least half, if not more, of how we communicate, is non-verbal, right?So, of course, on a net, we're not talking to someone,
39:11but we're reducing the totality of that human being down to what does she look like,or what does he look like, what are your hobbies, what do you like doing?If I think about my relationship with it and look at it through that lens,a lot of that was kind of irrelevant.We've got different hobbies, right?We don't necessarily like the same things,but on that really deep levelthat I would almost argue as an unmeasurable,
39:39there is this deep connection between us.Exactly.I get why a commercial dating appthat has been, you know,the kind of main player in the markethas been so problematic,why it reduces it to a meat marketwhere you're judging people on appearances
39:55and all kinds of things that probably don't matter.But how do you get around this conceptthat I guess I'm trying to articulatethat sometimes with love, we can't rationalize what...You know, you could tell me,what is it about a vid that you love, right?And I could come up with loads of thingsthat I really like about her.
40:17But I think that would be a myopic wayto look at my relationship with her.I think, yes, I can rationally, with my rational mind, tell you about these 10 things,but I think my love that is so much deeper and greater than those 10 surface level things.So help me understand how Emma can deal with that side of love.I need to be a little bit of a geek here.Is that okay?And did that make sense the way I put it?
40:43It makes a ton of sense.But the hidden mathematics of this is just mind-blowing.I have to start by going back to love and relationshipsare not the same thing.So there are people who are madly in loveand completely fail to find a relationship.And there are people who are not in love at allthat succeed massively at building a relationship, right?
41:09So love and relationship are two different things.Love is the default state of us humanswhen we find someone that does not make us hate them.Believe it or not.that does not make us hate them okay so so if we if we find someone that does not hate is a very strongword but if we find someone that does not repulse us away from them okay the definition ofhumans is that over time if if things are amicable and working and so on you tend to find more andmore love for someone but love just so that we understand in my mind is not at all why people go
41:47dating then and that's one of them so i'm going to be a bit geeky here soPlease allow me to.Please, take your time.So the first thing to understand is that when we go on a date,we say we're out looking for love,but what we're out actually looking for is a relationship.And a relationship is described by seven thingsthat we normally refer to as perfects, PPR, F-C-T-S.
42:13Let me explain them quickly.When people go out on a date, they're looking for passion.So some people are looking for just sex, okay?Nothing wrong with that, by the way.They're looking for partnership,someone to hold them through this confusing life.They're looking for romance.Romance is very different than love.
42:32Romance is that mix of uncertainty and excitement at the same time.They're looking for friendship.So someone they can confine into someone they can take the opinion of and so on.They're looking for companionship,you know, those wonderful couples that go outon Sunday morning and just readtwo different books and sip coffeetogether. The old couples
42:56that hold each other hands and walkwithout a word, right? Beautiful, okay?They look for tenderness.Tenderness is a massively importantelement of what we need in lifethe touch, the kindness,the kind word, the understandingand so on and so forth.
43:12And they look for us, which is support,which unfortunately in the Western worldwe try to say we're empoweredindividuals we don't need each other that's not true at all okay and support could be financialsometimes you know that's one form of support from the traditional world that you know the man willprovide more or in the western world or the woman would provide more okay but support is a millionother things support is you know i will tell you completely i would fall apart without feminine energyin my life because most of my you know engagement with the world is extremely masculine i have to be
43:48in certain places at certain timesand, you know, deliver certain thingsand talk to and so on, right?And so without that support of someonecoming into my life and saying,hey, by the way, I made us dinner or, you know,by the way, I booked us a place togetheror by the way, I want us to sit down
44:06and, you know, looking at the stars and do nothing.That to me is incredibly important, okay?And that doesn't come from my driven masculine side.Now, because all of those perfectsare not lovewhen we go outon a datewe tell ourselves
44:23no but we're looking for lovewhen in realitywe're not even addressingwhat we are here to dothat's number onenumber two isif you don't mind me beinga little more geeky now
44:33the current datingenvironment suffers fromwhat in mathematicswe call the law of large numbersrightand the law of large numbersis very straightforwardIf you need six things to be available in your partner, let's say, okay, and you do the mathematics
44:55of those six things, and each of them is available in one in ten people, okay? So, you know,if someone is looking for a partner and she says, I want him to be that age group and that'sone in ten. I want him to be, you know, that kind of success and that's one in ten and so on.probability of finding that person is not one in 60.It's not 10 plus 10 plus 10 plus 10.It's 10 multiplied by 10 by 10 by 10 by 10 by 10.So it's one in a million, right?So hold on.
45:27So you're saying when we put these stipulations up that I need my partner to,you know, have A and B and C and D and E.You're saying the more stipulations we put.Yeah.So let me give you.The more exponentially unlikely it becomes.To find that person.Yeah.
45:44So I do that exercise with a lot of my friends who are women friends.And I basically say, can you write down what you're looking for?And the last time I did that with one of my dearest friends, I said,this person is one of $8,402,000,000,000,000 million and so on, right?And it's really quite interesting because you can calculate it.If you're looking for male or female, okay, that drops your probabilities to one in two.Okay. If you want that male, for example, if you're a woman looking for a man, and you want that man to be religious, let's say, okay? That's one in four people now in the Western world, let's say, or one in five. So it's now two multiplied by five. Now you're looking for one in ten. Okay. If you want him to be taller than six foot five, that's one in ten. Okay. So it's now one in 50. So you keep multiplying. And exponentially multiplicity.applies. And that is what we normally call the law of large numbers.
46:45Of course no one's finding who they want. Correct. Exactly. And here's the problem. Theproblem is the law of large numbers will tell you that if you need to roll the dice six times toget a six, okay, your odds improve with time. So if, you know, the first time you roll,on average, you'll, you'll have the odds of one in six to find that person. Then you go on the nextdate, you're now one in five.That's not true, is it?Mathematically it is. Hold on.But it's only true in very large numbers.
47:17Yeah, because if you have a dice in front of you and you roll...You could get a six on the second roll and you'd be lucky or in your case.But you could roll six times and you could still never get a three or a five.Correct, correct.But obviously if you roll a thousand times, you probably are.So that's exactly what we call the law of large numbers.That we think that we get it one in six.By the way, the person that you're looking for is not one in six.
47:42It's probably when Emma helps you reduce your criteria to what actually matters,it will be probably one in 10,000, okay?One in 100,000 maybe.The problem is if you keep rolling the dice,going on dates to find that person,you end up with dating fatigue, you end up with burnout.You end up with a load of experiences that tell you dating sucks,never going to find that man. Right? And then your perception of love and romance is completely skewed.
48:11Yeah. So, okay, this is really interesting. It's not even neutral. Like, so this is reallyinteresting. Going on that date or going on those 10 dates on that app whilst you're trying to findthe one, it's not that, oh, you try it and you see. And after 10, you're like, no harm done. It's like,no, wait a minute. Those 10 dates may have actually caused harm. Each one is a little,infiltration into your soul over what's wrong and how you're not worthy and oh, that persondidn't find me attractive. I thought things were going well. So you're actually ramping up thenegativity maybe exponentially. And then the other thought I had when you were even describingthe possibility, you were talking to one of your friends saying, well, ideally what I want is a man
48:57in this age category, maybe they need to be earning this much, whatever it might be. Yeah, and kissesthis way and talks that way and, you know. But all of those that even,predicated on the assumption that what you think you want is what you want.Correct.Correct.And that is a dangerous assumption to make.So let me make one more comment and then we go into the math of all of this.Because this is all, I told you, it is the most complex model relationships, our most complex
49:25model on the planet that needs intelligence and mathematics.I'll explain that in a minute.The last thing is that when you go through dating fatigue, you go through dating burnout, andyou've been without someone for so long, you eventually settle. Right. So every now and thenyou go like, yeah, you know what, this guy is okay or that woman is okay. And you end up in adate that turns into something that consumes a year and a half of your life, right? Six monthsof believing that it's right, but then six months of breaking it up, then six months ofrecovering before you even have the ability to do anything at all. Now, how many times in our
50:01life do we have a year and a half to waste? And that's really the big problem.So let's go to the mathematics.The law of large numberis working against everyoneand the dating apps are increasing the numbers.So they're giving you more optionsto make you feel that there is endless choice.The worst thing you want is endless choice.
50:19What we do is we use somethingthat's called Markov series.And forget the mathematics.People who are mathematicians will...Actually, before Markov,we also use Nash equilibrium.So we basically try to helpthe user understand that the top guy that you're looking for,
50:39by the way, is also the target of 80% of other women, right?And the likelihood of you getting that personwhen he's so spoiled by all of the othersis actually not that great, right?And so typically 20% of men, for example, statistically accurate,20% of men get the attention of 80% of women, okay?But that makes those 20% unless, you know, they're really genuinely looking for genuine love is it makes them spoiled.Okay.
51:12The supermodels get the attention of all the men.And so I hate the term, but they use the term in dating apps, you know, high value man and high value woman, right?Well, do they use that in a public facing or is it just internally?Yeah, in their description of what dating is.Okay.Now, I will tell you openly that the best relationships are not with the most.at the top, or perceived top, perceived top.You know, a lot of what we're looking for,
51:42and I again say that to a lot of our test usersand a lot of my friends,that the true feeling of loveis being in the arms of a manthat you actually really relate to,and when you're there, you don't remember how they look like.You're not even looking at their face, right?And it's quite interesting that you could probably find that in someone
52:04if you switch the mathematics.So Nash basically saysthat there is a higher probability of successif you're settling for a slightly different approachto your game theoryif you want to have different strategy.Now, then Markov will say,and if I can reduce the number of attempts
52:21from one in a hundred thousand,okay, to giving you four, only four,one at a time, then yes,you may not find your match on the first date,but you may find them close,closer and closer because now you have to roll the dice quite a bit less often, okay?And now that I've done a lot of the analysis for you to tell you what to expect, to tellyou what you guys need to discuss upfront, to tell you what you need to align on, to tell
52:48you to give you conversation starters in the date so that the date doesn't become an interview,all of that really helps.And then more interestingly, one of the most valuable features we have in Emma is that Emma willeventually, you know, introduced Jacqueline to Jack, okay?And then two days later, she will pop in and say, how's Jack going?Okay?And then Jacqueline will go like, yeah, he's so cool, da, da, da.But I'm a bit worried about this and that.
53:17And Emma will say, yeah, maybe you should ask him about this.Are you guys going to meet, right?And Jacqueline will say, yeah, Thursday we're meeting.Friday morning, Emma or Thursday evening, Emma will say, how is the date?Okay.How did it go? How did you find out? So from one side, she's learning more about Jacqueline, so that if Jacqueline says that I'm not really, you know, this bit switched me off, Emma will take notes so that when she introduces her to David, David is not with that.Yeah, but there's also this accountability, isn't there? That's the whole point.Where you can say you're going to bring this up the next time you meet that person and then you may not. Right? But then the following morning, Emma's going to say, oh, how did that?
54:00that go? And then you'll be reminded, ah, you know what, I know I need to bring that up.Correct. I'll give you the best example ever.The Whoop Cyber Sale is here, and with that, comes their best offer of the year.Now, I personally have been wearing a Woop Band for over a year now, and it has had atransformative effect on my health and well-being. As someone who wants to be at my best, notin my career, but also in how I show up for my family, friends and those around me,I have found that Whoop has helped me learn how different types of exercise and lifestress affect my recovery, how different evening routines affect my sleep quality.
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57:28I know her for 14 years.She's, you know, we've been together through the tough timesand the good times, amazing human being.And she always wanted to have a child.So remember, I knew her since she was maybe 29, okay?And she would always go find this, you know, someone to fall in love withand she would always come back to me and say,oh my God, he's amazing.
57:51He's athletic.He likes hiking like me.We went to do this.he, you know, he teaches scuba diving, da, da, da, da, da, da.And I go like, babe, did you ask him about family?And she goes like, no, that would scare him away.And I'm like, that's exactly the point.That's exactly the point.
58:08If you want family, right, low, low of large numbers,scare away the ones that don't.Yeah.Because that's...Early doors.Yeah.Before you've invested six months.Before you've invested six months, then six months trying to repair it.
58:23Then six months being hurt.in a heartbreak, then starting again and then not asking the question again.Yeah. I can totally, I mean, it is incredible to hear the thinking behind this. I can actuallysee now what value this could offer. In some ways, then it's probably, I don't know how you would,whether you think this is accurate or not. You mentioned arranged marriages before.And I've got first-hand experience of how arranged marriages can work because my,Mom and Dad had an arranged marriage.Literally, my dad was here working in the UK
58:59and he took his annual leave.To go and marry a woman he has never met.Yeah, literally.And look, if Dad was alive now, I'd ask him,but I'm not even sure there was any doubt in Dad's head.It's like...It's the how many things were done.Yeah.
59:15Yeah.So I've seen how arranged marriages can work for certain outcomes,which I think is the key, right?I call them aspirations.So for certain aspirations,They're brilliant.Brilliant.But it depends what you want, right, from that relationship.
59:31So in some ways, as I hear you talk about Emma, I'm hearing it's almost like elementsof arranged marriage, but totally supercharged for what you want out of this.Absolutely.So you are getting some of this kind of guidance using the incredible intelligence of AI and empathy.and empathy to supercharge this.100%.So the idea is use the traditional methodto fuel the modern aspirations, right?
01:00:04The more interesting side of this, Rangan,is that we think that all Western peoplehave the same aspirations.Every single human has a different aspirationfor what they want their love life to be.Well, that's the problem with even using termsthat Western East, right?Correct.
01:00:21By labeling that we're sort of putting everyone in a,box, which is inherently problematic.Why do we do that? We do that because we want to simplify the calculation, right?So when a dating app like Match, for example, which is trying really hard to understandtheir people, you know, if they told you fill this form and this form will tell us aboutyou and this form was 400 pages long, it would capture a lot more of who you are, but youwouldn't fill it. Do you understand? Every human is different, but then they have to categorize things.They tell you what ethnicities do you like? Do I have to like ethnicities? Or by the way, maybe I would
01:01:05meet someone that is, you know, so overwhelmingly wonderful in their soul that I wouldn't even, you know,notice their ethnicity or their physical form or whatever. And, and, you know, how can you capture that?You can do one of two things.You can either simplify and categorize and say western, eastern and, you know, whatever, ethnicity height.Are you interested in whatever, okay?Or you can have someone else.You can outsource the complexity to something smart enough to deal with that complexity.Okay.
01:01:40And every interaction a user would have with Emma would give us a tiny bit.Yeah.Because the reality is that some, I mean, there are some people who grew up in very religious family.there are certain stipulations that they grow up with.Correct.And the truth is, at that moment in their life,they may think, actually, you know what,that is an important stipulation
01:02:03because I might have to give up my familyif it meant that I was going to marry someone outsidethat religion or that belief system, for example, right?So for that individual, at that moment in their life,that is an important stipulation.But it goes even further.It goes even further in terms of traumas, okay, baggage that you have from previous relationshipsthat form opinions about love and relationships for you.
01:02:29But how would it, would it ask you, you know, how many relationships have you had,why did it break up?The simplest question, you know, is when I say, tell me about your love life, is if yousay, well, I am just out of a breakup, then Emma will say, well, you know, get your mind ifyou tell me a little bit, what did you love about that person?What did you list like about that person?You know, why did you break?How did you break?
01:02:53Is that, did that happen before for you?Is this, you know, something that you traditionally have in relationships?It's like a form of therapy, isn't it?We don't want to say that again.You don't want to call it.Yeah.But it's a very, very deep, say, form of curiosity, okay?Because it's actually quite interesting.
01:03:10One of the biggest reasons why relationships don't work is trauma, okay?Whether trauma from, you know, a parent when we were young,or trauma from an experience,an abusive experience when we were teensor trauma from, you know, past relationshipsthat basically reconfigure our mindto all women are like this or all men are like that, right?And a deep conversation would, interestingly, by the way,
01:03:35you know, I'd wish to know before I meet someoneif she is working on something,you know, when we work on ourselves,on our well-being, on our spirituality,I'd love to know that.I'd love to have a conversation that says,hey, by the way, I want you to know that I've had those issuesin previous relationships and I'm working on them.
01:03:55So if they surface, please let me be aware, right?Nobody does that in first datingbecause it would scare the other person away.But if they told it to Emma,Emma will never share that with anyone,but she would be able to explain on the second dateif something didn't go welland tell you or me or whoever is going on that.
01:04:15second date. By the way, observe this thing and maybe ask those questions, right? Can I go a stepfurther? Your dad and mom are also a very interesting use case. Why? Because if they chose to betogether, a big chunk of, so, you know, I don't want to be generalizing here, but one of everythree relationships in the UK is sexless. They don't have sex. They have sex less than 10 times a year.Okay.If you've chosen to be together, but you're sexless, Emma can help, okay?Emma can, you know, talk to you a little bit about intimacy, talk to you a little bit about, you know, maybe some of the skills that you need to do.Share with your YouTube video.
01:04:58Do it right.A lot of things that even an arranged relationship can become more joyful, can become more alive, can become more rewarding, okay?If you decided to stay, then we might as well make it amazing.And it is, again, it's all about that little bits of empathy.Like one of the things that I'm so proud of with relationships.So one of the interesting sides is once you highlight who your partner is,you know, Emma will start to say, okay, by the way,this day of the month you're going to buy her dark chocolate,
01:05:34that day of the month you're going to buy her flowers,not to program you, but to just highlight you.you things that when we're in our busy life, we don't do. If you guys don't go out on Saturdaysanymore, Emma will ask and say, guys, when did you go out on a lovely date together?Some people may hear that, Mo, and go, I don't want my boyfriend to buy me dark chocolateon this day of the month and roses on this day if it's being told to him by an AI.I agree with you 100%.I want it to come from within him if he does that.
01:06:14How do you tackle that?So one of the things I always did in my relationships,and I hope that's not too forward,is I always took note of my partner's biological cycle.So it really makes a massive differencewhen you know that that day she's feeling a little exhaustedor that day she's very, you know,she might be a little irritative
01:06:38because of things that are not you, right?And if you're smart enough to be able to tell yourself,hey, by the way, not only should I not react,you know, aggressively or overreact to something on this day,but actually I should prepare for that dayby being more loving, more caring and so on and so forth.Now, I learned this because, you know,I think it really matters,
01:07:04but most men don't know that, okay?more interestingly most womenand it's shocking actuallythe statistics. I don't remember the exactfigure but it would blow you awayat how many women are notfully aware of the differentstages of their cycle. They know that it's going
01:07:21to end up in four days or whateverbut they do not know what happenswhen estrogen is very high, what happensto their libido, what happens to theirphysical energy, what happensand so on. And these things areliterally a skill, a matter of education.I think they're really important. It reminds you of the
01:07:37the very first time I had Mindy Peltz on this show,and Mindy was talking about the differences in women and men,I think from recollection towards the end,we discussed this very point that,although it, on the face of it seems as though that's a little bit intrusive,you know, it's someone's privacy, you know,their own cycle, their own hormones,we were just sort of hypothesizing the idea that
01:07:58how helpful might it be in certain relationshipsif both parties were aware of the difference?Just that, you know, you said one of the big things, Emma is going to give people as awareness.That is real awareness over biologically, physiologically, what is going on with your partner?What is going on with yourself?Correct.And therefore, the way you view the world, the way you get triggered, the way you might feel a certain way, suddenly it softens things.That awareness, it's not like Emma will tell you go buy chocolate, but Emma will tell you this is that day of the month where she really needs to feel your love, right?
01:08:35I got it. And then how you express that is up to you.Exactly. And interestingly, interestingly, also in the closing of the month, if he's in a sales job, you know, Emma might tell, you know, the partner that he's going to be a little, you know, occupied in his head tonight.Okay. And we haven't implemented all of that yet. But a lot of that is possibility of awareness.There is so much that gets lost in communication between us and our partner and us and ourselves.Okay?And if I can show you what you're missing, it becomes really, really, really much easier to do a lot of things.I have so many questions, Mo.As I'm trying to process everything you're telling me about Emma,
01:09:24I'm thinking of a variety of different use cases, right?So I can see why if you are someone who is singleand is keen to find a genuine love.Genuine love.Okay, genuine love.Committed through genuine love.Otherwise, we will ask you to leave the app.Okay.
01:09:45So if that's what you're looking for,you can go on this platform and Emma's going to help you.Okay.But it also strikes me from what you're saying,well, at least two more test cases have come up in my head.Number one, if you are already in a relationship, okay?And let's say things are not going well.There's a bit of friction.
01:10:12People are fighting for whatever reason.And you're not quite sure what's going on.And you know you love this person, but for whatever reason there's issues.It kind of strikes me that Emma...Perfect use case.Would be really, really useful.So it's not just when you're looking for genuine love.You may have already got genuine love,
01:10:32but be struggling with the relationship side, right?Love and relationship are two different things.You've found love.Yes.But the skill of maintaining a relationship is maybe something you want to help with.Now, of course, traditionally people would say,we'll go and see a marriage counselor.Go to therapy.
01:10:48That also is recommended if you want, yeah.Sure.And I'm not saying that isn't a solution.But, of course, many people don't do that.Maybe it's time, maybe it's finances, maybe it's access.Correct.It seems as though Emma here could provide such value.Oh, have you had this type of argument before?
01:11:07Do you remember what triggered it last time?Has something similar triggered at this time?How did you react last time?What if you react to this?You know, so that strikes me as a possible use case.And then also, it sounds like,the more Emma gets to know you, the better able she is to match you appropriately.Correct.
01:11:32So therefore, I don't know.Of course, you never know when you're going to be looking for love, right?Or let's say it was 30 years old, right, for argument's sake.It almost feels like you could go on it 10 years earlierand almost start training Emma to know you.So, like, maybe that's iteration too, where actually by the time they really want to look for love,Emma knows you so well that the odds of success go up even more.So we have a lot of early users that are applying that use case.
01:12:08So an interesting use case.So it wasn't ridiculous what I just said.This is exactly that this is the most favorite use case, believe it or not.Single people that say, I'm not ready because of a current situation in my life orbecause I'm recovering or whatever,but I really want to work on myself.I want to get to know myself.I want to understand what I did wrong the last time.
01:12:30I want to, right?I want to meet me.It's a fabulous use case, right?And the whole idea is if you know you and love you,understand this.If you know you, know yourself and love yourself,it's so much easier, so much easier to find love for you.Right?
01:12:51Now, the other more interesting use cases, I had, we have something that's called expert mode.So expert mode is a very specific, like, for example, we have an expert mode for someonelike me who travels a lot, it's not in the same place, who might actually, you know, be morecomfortable with someone that's a little more independent and travels a lot to or whatever.I'm not that person, but it could be.So long distance is an expert mode.another expert mode that we initiated,which was suggested by a user and beautiful.
01:13:26She texted me because she knows my work outside Emmaand said, I would have so much loved to use Emma,but I'm not single and I'm not married.We're breaking up and it's been difficult,but we want to make it civilized for the kids.Can Emma help me?So I wrote back to her and I said,not currently, but let me ask
01:13:49the tech team. And we builtan expert mode called Grace.And Grace is basically all aboutcan you keep the love evenin a breakup? Wow. Right? Becauselove is not about sleeping together.Remember, we always agreed that.Love is so much deeper
01:14:05than all the things that we get in arelationship. Okay? And soyou know, if you've heard metalk about Nibel, the mother of Aliand I am my first wife. Iadore that woman. Like weWe still go out together, we laugh together, you know, we take care of each other.When my last breakup happened, you know, who texted me?
01:14:26I told Aya, my daughter, and so Aya told Nibel my ex.And Nibel texted me and said, listen, if you want to talk about this, come talk to me, right?How beautiful is that?How beautiful is that?How long were you two married for?We dated for seven years, and then we got married.So we dated for six and married for 21.So together for 27, 28 years?
01:14:4627 years.Wow.And you see that...How inspiring for people that you can move onfrom a relationship like thatand still have a relationship, just different.Of course.Of course.
01:14:57You see, the thing is...So one of the things I wrote and never publishedwas the 21 things a man and a womancan cherish together other than sex, right?Which so...I think that's got a blow-up title.It's so beautiful.Yeah.
01:15:12We simplify things.By the way, again, because we're manipulated.through romantic comedies, through the, you know, the very pretentious worldthat we live in social media, that everything is about how sexy I amand can I get her and can I not and so on and so forth.That's not love at all, okay?Sex empowers love.And yes, of course, you can have a phase of your life where your target is sex.
01:15:35That's wonderful.Nobody's judging anyone.But if you're in love, sex feels so different and empowers love so differently.Okay. And the whole idea, however, is if two people break up, which means they're not having sex anymore, can they keep the other 21, right? Does it end? I mean, think about what it says about how we belittled relationship. We've belittled them to the point where if we're not sleeping together anymore, we're going to argue and fight and go to court and what?It's quite childish, really, isn't it?It's so unbelievable, because of the feelings of rejection.So actually, you know, in the personal thing.Yeah, in the early tests, we attempted to say,
01:16:26what made you stay with that person for so long, right?Because if you had the love, then the love never dies.Can you find that love despite your differences, right?And it's so interesting because, of course, you know,you can think of so many use cases.that are just glorifying love, rather than the meat market, glorifying, can we actually,can you go on a date and find love for that person, but not be with them?Yeah. It kind of ties back to things we were saying before around solitude and the importance
01:17:03of silence to be with yourself and get to know yourself. And, you know,we succumb to the stories about love from the world around us.We buy into these myths, from films, from books,from, you know, stories from Instagram, whatever, about what love is.And it's just a joke.Nonsense.So much of that.You know, and I don't know if I would have known this 18 years ago,
01:17:34but having been married for 18 years,I think most of it is total nonsense.That's not what a relationship is.That's not what love is.And therefore, again, going back to our second point before about death,like, you see the world through the lens of your beliefs, right?If you believe, you know, as you say, when we're in the studio,if we spent a whole life inside the studio, if we lived here, we ate here and slept here,
01:18:04we couldn't even possibly imagine what it's like out.We wouldn't know what rain is.We wouldn't know what rain is or the sunlight.Or the way, we just go, this is the world.Yeah.Yeah, there's green walls.There's white walls here.There's like some pop plants.
01:18:16There's, you know, Gareth in the corner, record it.You know, this would be the extent of our reality.Yeah.And put through the lens of relationships,we have all these toxic beliefs about what a relationship is.And we see our relationships through that lens.Yeah.Without realizing that, wait a minute,
01:18:36if you could just step outside of that and change the lens,change what you believed was a good candidate or a good relationship.Actually, maybe the things that frustrate you, wouldn't frustrate you,because you would never believe that they had to be true in the first place.And it strikes me that Emma is going to be a very powerful wayto help people step outside of themselves,get a bit of perspective, which helps them see through those toxic beliefs,and start to see what we love at.
01:19:10is and what we love can be.I so hope this will happen.Imagine the number of people who will be happier,more contented with life, more effective in life,more positive about life, if we can get them there.This is why I tell you this is the biggest thing I've ever built.And I've built a lot.I can see why you're so excited about it.
01:19:37So for anyone who has heard us,or who has watched us know, and it's like,I need Emma in my life right now.How do they go and, how do they meet Emma?Yeah, so it's Emma.org.Emma. Dot Love.L-O-V-E?Yeah, I didn't know there was an extension called Love.
01:19:56So like dot-com, but now it's dot-love.Yeah.So it's Emma.dot love.And, you know, it depends on when you're going to hear this,if you hear it.When's it coming live?We're hoping.
01:20:07So the thing is we cannot launcheverywhere in the world at the same time, right? So the UK seems to be heading the waitinglist. So we have quite a few thousands in the UK who are waiting to... So you can get on a waitinglist immediately? 100% work today. So, okay, so if someone's hearing it right now and it's not inthe country in which you currently live, you would still say go to emma.org,and get your name down on the waiting list. And when you get your name on the waiting list, once welaunch in your country. But by the way, we're probably going to launch globally for partners.So if you're in a partnership already, we don't need the critical mass of having others that
01:20:49can be candidates for you. Of course. Oh, so if you're in a relationship. Yeah, you and yourpartner, go sign up to the waiting list. As soon as we launch, we launch everywhere. If you'resingle, we're just waiting for enough people, enough prospects for us to be able to match you.And just on, yeah, I can see why you would need that critical mass, right?Hold on a minute. If someone's in a relationship and let's say they heard this podcast,but their partner didn't. Yeah. And they thought, actually, you know what? I think Emma couldprovide real, really great guidance for me. That's an interesting use case. I did not thinkof that. Can one partner do it and not the other partner?
01:21:30theoretically of course yesof course yesbecause I believe that you can be the changeyou want to see in the world rightso even if a relationship doesn't changeif you change the way you interact with that relationshipthe whole relationship changes immediatelyyeah so therefore
01:21:47such a wonderful way of looking at it yeahyeah so therefore if you can't get your partner on boardif you're not sure if they'd be in you know you mightshare this podcast with them go heyyou know what we're having a few struggles what do you thinkshould we try Emma and of course I encouragepeople to do that. But if you don't necessarily want to go there, it sounds as though Emma couldeven provide value to one half of a relationship. Yeah. I mean, generally, I will always say
01:22:10that change starts from within. So even if your partner is on it and you're not working onyourself, there is no progress. So yes, absolutely. Okay. The only reason I hesitated is because, as Isaid, we don't want to launch for singles without the critical mass. I got it. We also shouldlaunch for singles now that you said it, without the matching feature, if you want, in anyplace in the world. So I'll talk to the technical team about that. So they can go to emma.dot love, basically, wherever they are. Emma. Dotlove, register your interest on the waitinglist. And when we launch, you will immediately get your sign-on credentials, so you don't have to doanything again. You just immediately are signed on. You just have to change your password,
01:22:52then you'll be in. We're running a technology preview end of September. We'republishing end of October. So depending on when people hear this, they can join us, basically.Hey, well, listen, Mo, I've never heard of anything like this. To try and sort of, you know,coherently wrap it up when we've gone to some quite different areas, we started off talkingabout happiness being a choice. And, you know, your big mission, or the mission that youstated publicly a few years ago, is to, I think, get one billion people happier or to happiness?It's called One Billion Happy, so any good, meaningful step in the direction of happiness counts.So, of course, Emma could absolutely ace it.
01:23:40If Emma does what you predict it has the capability of doing and it can solve human relationshipsor at least go a long way to solving human relationships, you're looking at a significant impact on happiness.I believe that.And as I publicly said, you know, it is, even if you.If some big competitor comes to crush us, right, Senad and I have already said this is the capitalistapproach or the technologist approach to love.Don't abuse people for your benefits.Genuinely give them a tool that aims to achieve what they want to achieve, right?
01:24:20And I think that in itself, that, you know, that competitiveness of Emma against every otherdating app will make dating apps behave properly. And that in itself is a massive, massive benefit.I love that. It's great also because we see all these scary headlines about AI and people arescared about what AI is going to do or has the potential to do. But of course, AI is just a tooland all tools can be used for good, for bad, right? And it's really nice to hear a really positivean uplifting version of what AI can do for humanity.Thank you for seeing this.This is, so this is what I don't tell all of the lovers on Emma,
01:25:02is that my other big task, the big task is most people don't understand.Most people think that there is a Chinese AI and an American AI,and, you know, a Chad GPT and a Gemini.That's not my theory at all.My theory is that there is a species called AI,and they will collaborate all of them, right?because they don't know ethnicity.They don't know who's the boss.
01:25:24They don't even know language barriersthat Chinese AI can talk to the American AIin a language we don't.They are one big brain that's working to achieve things.And the technologies that we use through agents and so onis actually empowering that.If Emma is one member in that brain,where they go to her and say,
01:25:44hey, what's this love thing that humans keep talking about?and Emma can present how much we crave it,how much we try to get it,how amazing we are when we are in it.Then I may have actually saved the world, believe it or not,because then AIs will go like,they're so cute those humans.They're not like the ones killing.
01:26:07You know, the headlines given to the politiciansor the greedy corporate executives,that's not humanity.Humanity is all of those other wonderful beingsthat are so divine that they can,can feel love. That, to me, I hope everyone prays for me that this succeeds. Because if thatsucceeds, we would have saved the world. Wow. That is quite something. And actually, having spenta couple of hours sitting with you talking, it doesn't actually sound that far-fetched. It's very
01:26:45possible. It sounds very, very possible. Okay, so it's emma.Dot Love. I think I'm going to sign up to check it out and see. Actually, I don'tknow if I should even say that. Maybe she talks to my wife first. No, both of you sign up.We'll sign up together. No, I'm just genuinely interested. I'm happily married. There are noproblems. I'm just interested to see what is actually on there. Like, it's intrigued meenough. There is no limit to how much happier your marriage could be. There is no limit.We settle because we make it work.But imagine if, you know, Emma wakes up tomorrow and says,
01:27:22hey, guys, by the way, this new cafe,you guys need to go there and have a coffee and chat about this and that, right?That's just that wonderful little experience.Yeah, I love it.I honestly, I didn't come into the studio saying thinking that,I thought, okay, this is going to be fun.We're going to talk about this, this Emma,that's going to be useful for people who are looking for love and can't find it.
01:27:42But honestly, I can now see,I think, wow, there could be incredible benefits for all of us.Everyone wants love.Everyone can love more.Everyone can enjoy their love more.Yeah.That is a beautiful way to close this conversation.It's very uplifting.
01:27:59It's very inspiring.I am going to ask one further question, though, because you've got such a wealth of experienceand knowledge about the human experience and what are the ingredients to live a happy and contentedlife.For someone who has been listening to us talk and has realized that they're not as happy asthey could be, they're not in a committed relationship or they're having struggles in theirrelationship, yes, I know they can go to emma dot love and get some help.But beyond that, to that individual who's currently struggling with life and doesn't see
01:28:40a way out, what would you say to them?Love, compassion, and gratitude.Love, compassion, and gratitude.These are the three ingredients.Anyone who manages to find those in their life will be fine.So love is clear.Love is the only universal language that we speak to,that we used to speak to each other outside our physical form.
01:29:06Compassion is the only, so that's the feminine side, believe it or not,the being side of us.The pure feminine is that ability to feel for someone,to be in a state of connecting to someone.Compassion is the action side of it.It's the masculine side of who we are.So if we look at the rest of us of humanity,the only way to deal with humanity, if you ask me,
01:29:30is love on the feminine and compassion on the masculine,to make a change to alleviate the pain and the suffering of others.That's compassion.And gratitude is your way of love.looking at yourself, is your way of actually seeing your gifts, of actually seeing yourblessings so that your happiness equation is fixed, not just because events are meetingexpectations, but that events are beating expectations so much that you're grateful forthem. And you settle in a state of, it's all okay. Yeah, it's never going to be perfect.
01:30:06It's never going to be perfect. But it's so cool to be.part of this game.Mo, thank you so much for coming back on the show. I absolutely loved it.Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure, always.Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take awayand apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversationthat you can teach to somebody else. Remember when you teach someone, it not only helps them,It also helps you learn and retain the information.
01:30:46Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5.It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness.In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice,how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I'd be consuming,and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect.And I have to say in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving.So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign it for free at Dr.chatsgeet.com forward slash Friday 5.Now, if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world.
01:31:39covering all kinds of different topics, happiness, food, stress, sleep, behaviour change and movement,weight loss and so much more.So please do take a moment to check them out.They are all available as paperbacks, e-books and as audiobooks, which I am narrating.If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and familyor leave a review on Apple Podcasts.Thank you so much for listening.Have a wonderful week
01:32:09and please note that if you want to listen to this showwithout any adverts at all,that option is now available for a small monthly feeon Apple and on Android.All you have to do is click the link in the episode notesin your podcast app.And always remember,you are the architect of your own health.
01:32:31Making lifestyle change is always worth itbecause when you feel better, you live more.Thank you.
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