Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - How To Control Your Blood Sugar, Cut Cravings and Get Your Energy Back with Jessie Inchauspé #358

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

CAUTION: The advice in this episode may not be suitable for anyone with an eating disorder. If you have an existing health condition or are taking medication, always consult your healthcare practitioner before making changes to your diet. My guest this week believes that how you feel right now is directly linked to your blood-sugar level. And if you want to feel better than you do right now, you don’t necessarily need to change what you eat – just how. Jessie Inchauspé is a French biochemist and author, whose first book, Glucose Revolution, spoke to the life-changing power of balancing your blood-sugar and her latest book, The Glucose Goddess Method sets out a four-week, four-step plan to help you do just that. Before writing The Glucose Goddess Method, Jessie recruited 2,700 volunteers through social media to test her programme. The results are quite astounding: 70 percent of those who followed her plan for four weeks reported better energy; 90 percent had reduced cravings; 40 percent of the participants with type-2 diabetes reduced their diabetes markers. Ninety-nine percent of those who took part said they were impressed enough to continue the habits for life. Jessie believes blood sugar is the one metric that has the most effects in the body, from balancing hormones to improving energy, mood, immunity, skin, sleep, ageing, weight and much more. During this conversation, she breaks down the science of exactly what glucose is, how it’s used by the body, and why an excess of sugary or starchy foods can cause a blood-glucose spike. She explains why glucose is our body’s favourite energy source, used by every cell, but that too many spikes, too often, will lead to adverse health effects. Realising that very many of us struggle with sticking to the ‘best’ or ‘right’ diet, Jessie wanted to find ways that we could all enjoy the foods we love, without suffering spikes. By adopting her four ways of eating – one at a time, bit by bit – you can minimise glucose spikes and, in turn, the short and longer-term health issues they create. Jessie is a really fantastic communicator who is able to simplify complex science and give you actionable information that you can implement immediately. I hope you enjoy listening. Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore https://www.vivobarefoot.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/358 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

I love sugar. I love pasta. I probably eat sugar every single day. So I'm not here to tell you to never eat it again. I'm not here to demonize it. I'm here to tell you, let's eat it. Maximum pleasure, minimal impact on our body. Because I don't want people to suffer. I don't want people to get diabetes. I want people to put diabetes into remission. I want people to get their period back. I want their mental health to be better, their skin to be clearer, to sleep better, etc. But also, the cool thing about this science is that it allows us to do all that without giving up any of the foods that we love. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More.

Before we start today, I really want to highlight something that I said a few weeks ago in my conversation with Tim Spector. These days, nutrition seems to be one of the most divisive topics to talk about. And I think it's really important to bear in mind that the nutrition advice you need is really going to depend on your own goals and what specific stage of life you are in. For example, if you struggle with or are recovering from an eating disorder, then it's likely that the advice you need regarding nutrition is different from the advice someone who is trying to manage their type 2 diabetes needs. So please do bear in mind this nuance whenever you are listening to any conversation about nutrition. That being said, today's guest is the French biochemist and author

Jessie Inchel-Spey. Her first book, Glucose Revolution, spoke to the life-changing power of balancing your blood sugar levels, and her latest, The Glucose Goddess Method, sets out a practical four-week plan to help you do this for yourself. Now, before writing her latest book, Jessie recruited over 2,000 volunteers through social media to test her program. And the results really are quite astounding. 70% of those who followed her plan for four weeks reported better energy, 90% had reduced cravings, 40% of the participants with type 2 diabetes improved their metrics, and a staggering 99% of those who took part said they were impressed enough to continue the habits for life. And I really can't emphasize enough how simple her approach is. So why so much focus on our

blood sugar? Well, Jessie believes it's the one metric that has the most effects on the body, from balancing our hormones to improving our energy, our mood, our skin, our sleep, our weight, how fast we age, and so much more. Now, Jessie's own health journey began when she shattered vertebrae in her back, jumping from a waterfall when she was just 19 years old. While she recovered physically from the trauma, in the aftermath, she began to experience depression, anxiety and panic. Realising that we have nothing if we don't have good health, she embarked on a career journey to learn as much as she could about how our bodies work. One of her most powerful breakthroughs came when she connected her lowest mental health episodes with her biggest blood glucose spikes. If only she could control these, she thought, could she potentially also control

her moods and regain her life? The answer seemed to be yes, and Jessie's fascination with all things glucose-related began. In our conversation, Jessie breaks down the science of what exactly glucose is, how it's used by the body, why an excess of sugary or starchy foods can cause blood glucose spikes, and her belief that blood glucose is the foundation of female hormonal health. She also outlines the potential adverse consequences of regular blood sugar spikes But also the incredible benefits we gain when we start to eat and live in a way that stabilizes our blood sugar And I think a really key point to make is that having stable blood sugar levels Benefits us in the short term and the long term

Yes, we reduce our risk of disease later on in life, but we also experience more energy, vitality and focus immediately. Jessie really is a wonderful communicator who's able to simplify complex science and give you actionable information that you can implement immediately. I really enjoyed my conversation with her. I hope you enjoy listening. And now, my conversation with Jessie in Shaospay. A lot of us, when thinking about improving our health, we are thinking about what foods we should be eating or avoiding very few of us are paying attention to how we should be eating and i know

one of the hacks that you recommend to people is to think about the order in which you eat certain foods i wonder if you could explain to us why is food order so important? Absolutely. And this is probably the easiest hack to start with because it doesn't require people to change, as you said, what they're eating. So when you're faced with a meal, the meal will have a very different impact on your blood sugar level, also called your glucose level, depending on the order in which you eat the constituents of that meal. And the studies show that you can reduce the glucose spike of your meal by up to 75% by just changing the order of the foods in it, which means fewer cravings, less inflammation, less inching towards diabetes, etc. The correct order is vegetables first, proteins and fats second, and starches and sugars last.

And the main reason this is so effective is because vegetables contain fiber. And fiber, when it arrives first in your digestive system, it has time to do something amazing, to do sort of like Transformers vibe. Fiber deploys itself onto the wall of your upper intestine, forming a protective gooey mesh that stays there for a few hours. That mesh then prevents your body from absorbing too much glucose too quickly from any of the food coming down afterwards. So very simple place to start. And for anybody listening, at your next meal, try this. Veggies first, carbs last, and see how you

feel. You might have a completely different experience of the rest of your day. It's a very simple tip. And what I love about it is that it doesn't require anyone to change what they eat. That's a tip that you can utilize whatever diet you follow. Whether you're vegan, whether you're paleo, whatever you are, you can use that. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. I've been a father now for 12, 12 and a half years. And for several years, one of the things I do with my kids, if I'm feeding them dinner, is I will actually do that. Right. I will. I remember with my daughter a few years ago, I figured out that if I give her, let's say the broccoli first,

then the salmon, and then the sweet potato wedges, actually often she's so full, she doesn't even eat that many of the sweet potato wedges. But if you serve them all together, the kids will automatically finish off those sweet potato wedges first. And sometimes they'll leave the salmon.

Often people will say that, they'll say, oh, if I start with my veggies, I actually end up eating fewer of the carbs at the end. But while that's often a consequence, that's not the goal, and that's not needed. Even if you eat the exact same meal, same quantity, same amount, just by switching the order, the food will have a vastly different impact on your body, you know, and you'll help your body process the meal in an easier fashion. Yeah. Very, very practical. Now, one of the things that's really drawn me to your work, Jessie, is the approach. So as a medical doctor, what I've always tried to do with patients is to figure out or help them figure out what is the root cause of your symptoms. Don't get

too sidetracked with the symptoms. They're important, but really trying to understand what's behind this, what's driving this. And I think one of the reasons I think you've blown up so quickly, you have hit on something that is very, very important. By focusing on one metric, blood sugar, you're able to help people with all kinds of things. Yes, weight loss, their immune system function, their hormones, their energy, their fatigue, their sleep, their skin, their aging, right? All these kind of downstream consequences, their skin, their aging, right? All these kind of downstream consequences, simply from focusing on one thing. Yes. Right. So tell us a story. How did that come about?

And when did you figure out that actually blood sugar and a stable blood sugar matters to all of us, not just for those of us with type 2 diabetes? Yes. So my health journey started when I was 19. Before that, I had a very healthy, happy childhood. No big issues, physical and mental. 19 years old, I go on vacation. I decide to jump off a waterfall with my friends. Spoiler alert, it was not a good idea. I break my back. One of my vertebraes explodes. I have intense surgery and I have a bunch of metal in my spine. And physically, I recover quite quickly because I was a bunch of metal in my spine and physically I recover quite quickly because I was rather young but then mental health issues start popping up for me so anxiety depression feelings of being dissociated from myself not feeling in my body anymore just a lot of suffering and I remember so clearly I told my mom one day I was like mom nothing matters more

than health if you don't have your health, it doesn't matter what job you have. It doesn't matter what you're studying in school. Like you just can't live your life fully if your health is not okay. And I was so broken. I was just, I didn't even want to live anymore. I mean, I was really not okay. So I decided sort of out of this anguish to go figure out how my body worked and how to reconnect with it and how to heal and how to feel good and happy in the morning when I woke up. So I went on a quest. I put my big girl pants on and I went after the end of my undergrad in London at King's. I was studying mathematics. I moved to the US to go study biochemistry in

grad school. Did that, was very interesting, but still I had not figured out how to talk with my body. I still felt a bit lost. I felt like I didn't understand what to do to feel good. Then I moved to Silicon Valley to work in the field of genetics. Again, fascinating topic, but I learned that your DNA is actually not that predictive and you can't ask your DNA what you need to do in order to feel good in the morning. It can tell you your risk of, you know, long-term disease, but it's not great if you're trying to figure out today, how do I feel better? How do I avoid this fatigue, this mental health problem? But what happened was amazing. While I was there in Silicon Valley,

I had the opportunity to try on a continuous glucose monitor, which I know you're wearing one on your arm right now. And doing that completely transformed things for me. So that little device is measuring in real time your blood sugar level, your glucose level, and sending that data to your phone. And it's a device that was made for people with diabetes who need it. It's a matter of life or death, basically. But for me as a non-diabetic, I didn't think I would really learn anything from it, but actually it completely changed my life.

I was finally able to communicate with my body that had become such a black box since my accident. I was able to see, oh, wow, when I eat this, there's a big spike that happens underneath my skin. And actually the days where I feel my best are when my glucose levels are steady. And then something else that was amazing happened. One day, I felt one of these mental health episodes coming on of like the sort of dissociation, anxiety, depression thing that I had been dealing with since my accident. And I scanned my glucose monitor. And I see one of the biggest spikes I had ever seen. And I started linking the two. I was like, oh, these glucose spikes could be one of the triggers

for these really challenging episodes happening in my brain. All this to say that I became fascinated with the topic. And as a scientist, my first inspiration was to go on Google Scholar and try to read everything I could, all the scientific studies I could. So I was sitting on my couch and I had like a thousand tabs open on my computer, just like learning everything I could. And I discovered some very key important things. First, that I wasn't alone, that even if you don't have diabetes, you can still be experiencing these big glucose spikes on a daily basis. Second, that these spikes have consequences. And it kind of

depends on your health history, your body, who you are. But these consequences can range from cravings and fatigue to infertility to mental health, getting worse, etc. So I was like, okay, I got to avoid these spikes, right? The problem is I love sugar and I love pasta and I did not want to give those up at all. So I had to figure out how do I still eat all these glucose containing foods in a way that doesn't create the spikes. And then by looking at even more research done by amazing scientists across the world, I synthesized all the research into these hacks that I started applying to myself, that I started sharing with my friends and my family, and that I ended up putting on Instagram. And now they've helped millions of people across the world. And I'm so freaking proud of that. Because this information, this science,

it needs to be common knowledge. People need to know this, because it can really transform your life and avoid a lot of suffering. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that and going through your story. There are so many little bits there for me just to pick up on. One was how you could see the correlation between your blood sugar level

and how you were feeling. I think it's a bit in your book, actually. Yeah, early on in the book, I wrote it down. This is what you say, early on in my journey, I had the profound realization that how I feel right now is intimately linked to the spikes and dips of your glucose. Now, I think let's just pause on that for a minute because unless someone has been paying attention to their blood sugar, people listening now, people watching now, it is likely that they are having or have had blood sugar spikes, right? So let's maybe, because you're so good at communicating, maybe let's just go back to,

you know, what is glucose, what goes on in the body and what is a blood glucose spike? Yes. So glucose is a wonderful molecule. It is your body's favorite source of energy. Yeah. So every single cell in your body uses glucose for energy. So, you know, our heart cells use glucose to pump blood. My finger cells right now are using glucose to contract my muscles. My liver cells use glucose to perform other functions. Anyway, it's very, very, very important. And as human beings, the main way that we give glucose to our body is through eating foods,

specifically through eating starchy foods. So that's pasta, bread, potatoes, etc. Or sweet foods. So anything that tastes sweet from chocolate ice cream to a banana. Okay. And you might think if glucose is my body's favorite source of energy, and I want to have a lot of energy, maybe I should eat as many starchy and sweet foods as I possibly can. And that's actually where the logic breaks down. So your body needs some glucose, but if you give it too much glucose, symptoms start happening. I like to take the image of the house plant. So if I went on vacation and I gave you my house plant and I asked you to take

care of it, you would know to give the plant some water. But if you gave the plant too much water, the plant would die. And I would come back from vacation and be like, what the heck? My plant's dead. So your body is the same. You need some glucose, but too much glucose causes problems. And specifically, so this idea of glucose spikes. If during a meal you deliver to your body too much glucose too quickly, that creates what we call a glucose spike. Now, if you're wearing a glucose monitor, you can see that on the graph, but you don't need to wear a glucose monitor to be able to understand you're having a spike. The most common symptoms of glucose spikes are number one, unsteady energy levels.

So maybe it's 10 a.m. and you're just tired or it's 3 p.m. and you need a third coffee because your energy is completely unsteady. Second most common symptom, cravings. So scientists at Yale found out that during the drop that happens after a spike, the craving center in your brain activates and tells you, find some cookies, find something sweet. So if you're having cravings during the day, it's very possible that they are due to being on this glucose rollercoaster. And as I mentioned, the majority of the population is on this rollercoaster. Yeah. How many people do you think across society, let's say Western society, how many people do you think are having unhelpful spikes on a daily basis?

Well, we know that 1 billion people in the world have either prediabetes or type 2 diabetes. So, you know, that's the condition that is the most commonly associated with glucose levels. Those people are having spikes on a daily basis. For everybody else, the studies seem to point to the fact that 60 to 80% of people without diabetes are still probably having glucose spikes. So it's very common. It's very, very common. common. Essentially, if you think that you could feel better than you currently do, it's going to be helpful for you to start balancing your glucose levels, to start reducing any symptoms you might be experiencing. It's kind of like the foundation of health, you know, if you have unsteady glucose levels, like your body's going to have a hard time functioning.

Yeah. I think, you know, one of the approaches I've been taking with patients for many years now is helping them to see how impactful changing their diet can be. And what I mean by that is really for most chronic conditions that I've seen for a number of years, one of the things I'll help patients do is change their diets. Because until someone has gone two or three weeks with a whole food-based diet, a diet where actually their blood sugar is staying relatively stable, number one, they don't know how good they could feel. And number two, they don't know yet, and I don't know as a doctor how many of their symptoms I can put down to the food and the blood sugar. So instead of dancing around what I call downstream trying to manage this symptom, oh, you're getting cravings, oh, you've got a skin problem, right? And trying to think about medications and solutions there, it's like, well, hold on a minute. Why don't we just go back

to basics first? If we can get that foundational pillar right with your food intake, what kind of goes away, right? Yes, because symptoms, I discovered this, symptoms are messages, right? Your breakouts, your infertility, your, you know, tiredness, they're actually symptoms, your body speaking to you and potentially telling you, hey, there's glucose spikes happening within. So I completely agree with you. Often, for example, if people have cravings, one common reaction to having a craving is a feeling of guilt or shame or like feeling like you don't have enough willpower. Like, oh, I'm having cravings again. Like I'm so weak, I need to fight it. When actually, if you learn to study your glucose levels, those cravings might just go away. You know, if you fix the root cause, everything changes. And then one thing that really

is important to me is, you mentioned it's important for people to change their diets and go to whole foods. And I also want to acknowledge that it's quite hard to change food habits. And so why I think my approach has been so powerful is because it doesn't ask you to change that much stuff. It's very incremental.

And for people starting out in their journey, this is a really nice place to start. Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's a really good point. My bias is obviously if someone's coming in to see me, by that stage, they're usually quite sick. And the symptoms are affecting their quality of life. So at that point,

I'm trying to do what I can with my knowledge to help them. And I appreciate that not everyone is going to radically overhaul things unless things get to a really bad point. And I do think, frankly, I think your approach is going to work for that patient who is really sick, but it's also going to work for that person who... Just feels tired.

Just feels tired, right? Now, your first book, Glucose Revolution, was a big worldwide smash hit. The new one, I think, is probably going to do the same. It's really good. And you do this trial. Is it 2,700 people? Yes. Right. Well, I'd love you to talk to us a little bit about that. But I seem to recall that, was it 70% of people report better energy? Yep.

Right. So this is really big and really important because I would say over the past 20 years, I would say low energy is one of the commonest reasons why people go to see their doctor. Yet you're showing, if people follow your plan, the plan in the new book, that the majority of people are going to improve their energy within just a few weeks yes so the new book is called the glucose goddess method and i wrote it because after the first book people started dming me and they were like jesse can you please move in with me and help me actually do the hacks so people wanted a plan to put all this science into action. So the glucose goddess

method is a four week plan to turn the most important glucose hacks into habits. And we look at breakfast, we look at vinegar, we look at veggie starters, and we look at some movement. And as a scientist, I couldn't resist the idea of actually, you know, running an experiment, a pilot experiment on people to actually measure their results. So in October 2022, I recruited 2000 people off my Instagram, which is a huge amount of people, I thought I would get 50 or 100 people. Anyway, shows the power of that community. And they went through the method, and they reported back all of their improvements to me. So we have 90% of people reduce their cravings. Okay. We have 70% of people have more energy. We have 40% of people with diabetes improved their diabetes markers

in four weeks. Okay. And I think my favorite stat of all, 99% of people said they're going to continue doing this for life. They've picked up these really, really, really easy habits that are not restrictive, don't ask you to give up any foods or count calories, but are now part of their lives and are going to help them thrive and feel amazing and be connected to their bodies. Yeah, just incredible. Because all this has been done without them having to see a doctor, without them having to, you know, take time out of their days to go and try and find solutions. You're giving them some, as we've mentioned, we've only mentioned one hack so far, the kind of order of foods. But I agree with you that these things that you're teaching people,

they need to be commonplace. They need to just be- Like brush your teeth or drink water. Exactly. And I think as a father, I think these are great things that we could teach our kids, right? We could teach parents

when their kids want a snack after school, right? Imagine if all the children grew up knowing that I could change the way this food impacts my body simply by changing the order. Combining or doing something. I completely agree with you. And what's important to also note is that these hacks, I didn't invent them, right? They're all just based on these scientific studies that I translated into easy tips, right? So you can look in my books, I have over 300 scientific studies that I mentioned, but this is all science-based. And what's even cooler is that a lot of these hacks, you find parallels between them and things that we've been doing culturally

for generations. Yeah. I mean, that I definitely want to talk about because I am incredibly fascinated by modern science and how it fits alongside ancient practices. Completely. And I've been thinking about this for a number of years, but I remember, Jessie, just before my first book was published in the end of 2017. My mom was reading a copy and she said, I wish you'd met my granddad because a lot of the things that you're writing about is how he actually lived, right?

Which I found really fascinating. And I've come to the conclusion that a lot of us, a lot of modern humans, I think there's a bit of a, is arrogance too harsh a term? There's a real feeling that we now know things for the first time and how to look after ourselves. But actually, if you go to a lot of these cultures, the practices that we're now finding science to support, they've kind of been there in a lot of cultures for thousands of years. Yeah, I think what happened is that we knew these things,

you know, we had the wisdom, but then industrialization happened, the food industry happened, and so we lost touch. And actually, if those things hadn't happened, you and I would not have jobs because people would just know. Exactly.

And we're not living in communities anymore. So there's a lot of factors, I think, that explain why we don't know these things anymore. But they are ancestral wisdom. And that's why I think these hacks, for example, they just stick so well with people because once you implement it, you're like, oh, of course it makes sense. Like, of course I'm going to do this. No problem. But yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. Now let's talk about blood sugar for a minute. Okay? Because I think this is a really important point to get across. As we've said, most people, when they

think of that, think about type 2 diabetes. Unless I have type 2 diabetes, I don't need to worry about it, but you're beautifully explaining why it's relevant for all of us. Now, if we're taking in the same volume of food, right? so our meal or snack is not changing, the same amount of, let's say, sugar is coming into our body. You're saying to us that actually by doing various things, we can stabilize the sugar. So instead of it going rapidly up and rapidly down, it can be stable for a lot longer. Yes, you can have maximum pleasure from the sugar with minimal impact on your health. So someone's going to be thinking, okay, Jesse, but if the same volume

of sugar is coming into my body, does it matter if it's coming in slowly or it's coming in rapidly? Yes, bingo. That's a wonderful question. Yes. We know from the studies that it's the increase in your blood sugar levels, the rapid increase in the variability, which is more damaging to your cells than a sort of steadier, more stable glucose level. So yes, it does matter. Yeah. I guess, I don't know if this analogy makes sense to you, but let's say, analogy makes sense to you, but let's say, I don't know, let's say you have a roof on your house with a very, very tiny hole, right? And if it rains a little bit every day, not too hard, you know, for a week or so, you're probably going to manage, you know, you're probably going to be able to keep a bucket under the place and you're going to have to catch it, dispose of it, get rid of it.

But actually, if you have that same volume of water suddenly coming in at the downpour of one day, you're probably going to have a flood within your house. Yep. Does that analogy work when we think of the human body? I think it does. Another one I like is the analogy of Tetris. So imagine you're playing Tetris,

and I give you two ways of playing Tetris. Either everything, all the little blocks come down super quickly or the same amount of blocks come down, but over like five times the time. Which one do you think you're going to be able to manage better? The second one, same amount of blocks, but you have more time to organize them, put them away, deal with them. If everything comes down too quickly, you're overwhelmed and you lose the level. You know, it's kind of that idea. It's the same stuff, but your body has a much better time dealing with glucose when it arrives more slowly. So blood sugar spikes are related to all kinds of different problems. And in both of your books, actually, I think you beautifully

outlined why this approach is relevant for everyone, and I mean everyone. Now, I know your approach is not focused on weight loss, yet I think what's going to happen with most people is if they stabilize their blood sugar, excess weight is going to start coming off as a side effect rather than as the primary focus. And the reason I bring weight loss up is because I know your approach is not about weight loss. But of course, many people do want to lose weight. And so I think it's important to address that. I guess where I'm trying to get to, Jesse, because I really want people to hear this conversation and start making changes in their life, right? And we can talk about risk of type two diabetes in the future, risk of cancer, risk of dementia. But you know, for many of us, that's a dozen at the land. We want something that's going to make us feel good.

We want to have more energy, fewer cravings, feel good, sleep better, have better skin. And what's cool about the glucose hacks is that they affect you both right now and they help you feel good today and they prevent long-term disease. They're the same thing. But listen, I completely agree. If you tell somebody, do this to prevent type 2 diabetes, nobody's going to do it. I wouldn't do it. It's just your human brain is not wired to comprehend that. And so it's easier to think about, I'm going to feel way better this afternoon if I eat my breakfast this way.

And on the topic of weight loss. So, yes, you know, I just want to differentiate my work from like the big diet industry telling you, you know, just eat cabbage for a week and lose 20 pounds. What I'm talking about here is health. But as you mentioned, weight loss is often a consequence because when we study our glucose levels, three things happen. Number one, our cravings go away. Number two, hunger reduces. Number three, our insulin levels reduce as well, which allows us to be in fat burning mode more often. And to give you a statistic, in my pilot experiment for my second book, 40% of people who wanted to lose weight did in fact lose weight in these four weeks without restricting anything just because of the natural consequence of studying your glucose levels yeah you mentioned insulin there and i know when you explain why this matters to people you often talk

about mitochondria glycation and insulin yeah and i think just getting that scientific understanding for people i think would really help ground them and really help them understand why this is important. So could you explain how these three things get affected? I particularly like glycation because I think when people hear that they go, in fact, maybe let's start with glycation. What is it? Because this is going to move the needle for people straight away.

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perfect for keeping in your backpack, office or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. So I explained what glucose is and what a glucose spike is, which is a rapid increase in blood sugar after eating. And the spikes have three main consequences that then lead to symptoms. So consequence one, glycation. Glycation is a process that happens in your body from the moment you are born. And it's kind of like cooking. So when you put a chicken in the oven and it goes from being pink to being cooked,

it has glycated. A human being cooks from the moment they're born until they die. And in fact, when they're fully cooked, that's when they die. So you're cooking, okay? And this cooking is also leading to aging. Cooking is like aging. Glycation is like aging. You can't stop aging, but you can slow it down or speed it up. Now, the more glucose spikes you have in your body, especially if they come from sweet foods, the faster glycation happens, the faster you age. And this shows externally, like the more wrinkles you get, but also internally, your organs are slowly going to start to deteriorate and become less healthy. is so connected to glucose that there's actually a very well-known test

among people with type 2 diabetes called the HbA1c test, which actually measures the glycation of your red blood cells. So glucose causes glycation. Glycation is aging. Glucose spikes increase, well, speed up this process.

That's one of the things that happen. This is a really important one because we get it when you talk about chicken browning or, I don't know, making a creme brulee. You know, we know what that looks like. But that's kind of what's happening. It actually happens inside. So when scientists look at the cartilage of babies, like on the inside of their body, it's white. And by the time you're 90 years old, the cartilage is brown.

Like you're actually cooking. I know that sounds a bit crazy, but scientifically, it's completely true. You're glycating. Yeah. And this whole glycation piece is that we could be going on our life with a bit of low-grade fatigue, having a bit of sugar at 11 and at 3 p.m. to get us through a bit more caffeine, not realizing that actually those are likely to be symptoms of blood sugar dysregulation. And by doing that, by having that blood sugar dysregulation, we're probably aging inside. Or we feel like it's normal. I used to think it was totally normal to be famished at 1130 AM and exhausted at 3 exhausted at 3 p.m. I just thought, you know, because everybody around us feels that way. So you just have in your psyche that it's normal to not feel great. But in most of us, those symptoms can be linked back to these glucose

spikes. And when you flatten your curves, like it really feels like you're having a completely new experience of your life and of your days. It's transformative. And those symptoms, you don't have to live with them. Yeah. I know a lot about a good healthy diet, but wearing one for me and tweaking a few things and using a lot of the hacks that you're talking about and you write about, on those days where your blood sugar is stable, you have a different experience of life. You can have a clarity, almost like a steady supply of energy. Eagle energy. Yeah. It's quite incredible, really. You go, wow, I was eating so-called healthy foods two weeks ago and my sugar was going up and down and I thought I was doing okay. And for me, I think this is a key point.

You explain your story and how when you started wearing a CGM, you started to connect the dots between how you were feeling and what your blood sugar is doing. I think that's really, really powerful. Yes. And to be clear, like I did that and it was incredibly informative and allowed me to become fascinated with the science. I think you can very easily see all the impacts of the hacks on your life without needing to wear a CGM. You know, you know yourself, you know, if you used to be tired all the time and now you're not tired anymore. You know, if resisting a cookie was like, you know, the bane of your existence and now you don't even want the cookie anymore. You know, if you sleep better, you know, if your period is back, you know, if

like your mental health is better, like you don't need to wear the CGM. That's also the beauty of it all. You can reconnect with yourself without the device. You've done a lot of the testing. And yeah. And so what I do with my CGM data is that I illustrate the scientific studies. So for example, if I find a study that says, oh, we found at scale that one tablespoon of vinegar before a meal reduces the glucose spike of the meal. My work as a science educator, because I'm not a doctor, you know, I'm really just here to teach and communicate and vulgarize the science.

I think, okay, I want people to know about this scientific paper, but I need to illustrate it in a way that is approachable and understandable. So I create my glucose graphs just to show. And then if you swipe on my Instagram post, for example, you see the study that I referenced. I think the way you illustrate that data is so clever. And when someone like yourself starts an Instagram account and blows up that quickly, you know you're really hitting on something. You're able to articulate an idea in a very simple way that connects immediately with a lot of people. And I think that skill is very much undervalued.

I want to sort of say it's very much appreciated how well you do that. There's a layer missing between the scientific studies and the public. And I mean, you're part of that layer, of course, but we need more people who are here to communicate the science, make it understandable to teach. And I'm so happy to be able to bring these amazing discoveries done by amazing research teams across the world to my readers and my audience. Back to the three things, right? So we had glycation, which no one wants to be glycating and cooking their internal organs. Yeah, we don't want the wrinkles. And again, that's like a very short term benefit. But it's a benefit that a lot of us

want, right? Whether we are willing to accept our vanity publicly or not, most of us will probably say, yeah, I want less wrinkles. I would like to age more slowly than I currently am. But the good news is the hacks will help with that and also long-term prevention. So there are three things that happen in our body when we have a glucose spike. The first one is glycation, the cooking like a chicken in the oven. The second one is your mitochondria get stressed out. And the third one is insulin. So I'll explain the two last ones, the second and third one. So your mitochondria, they are these little machines inside of your cells that are in

charge of turning glucose into energy. So they're amazing and we need them. And the better they function, the more energy we have. Your mitochondria, when you're giving them a steady supply of glucose, they're quite happy. They're like, okay, I can deal with this. I'm making energy, no problem. When you deliver a glucose spike to them, they stress out. They freak out, like in the Tetris example, like the blocks are coming down too quickly.

They just quit and they don't function well anymore. blocks are coming down too quickly, they just quit and they don't function well anymore. And as a result, that can lead to chronic fatigue because your mitochondria are just not working as well as they could be. Your mitochondria becoming stressed out also leads to what's called oxidative stress and inflammation. And inflammation in our body is one of the biggest killers. We know that three out of five people in the world will die of an inflammation-based disease. And even if you have things like psoriasis, eczema, which are inflammation-based diseases, the more glucose spikes you have, the worse those symptoms are going to get. So that's mitochondria. You get tired. You get cooked and you get tired.

Can I just pause you there? Because it was so fascinating that, and I just want to draw a connection there just to make sure people have got that. You were talking about fatigue. So most people are under the impression that if I want to increase my energy, having more sugar is going to help me do that. Yet you're saying glucose spikes are... Harming your body's long-term ability to make energy yeah so just let's can we just make that super clear for people so when you eat something sweet what's happening is you're getting a dopamine release in your brain there's a pleasure hormone molecule that gets released in your brain and that pleasure can feel like energy you You feel perked up. You feel like, whoa, I feel awake.

That's not energy. That's dopamine. On the inside, in your mitochondria, the ability for your body to make energy is getting reduced. You're getting less and less good at making energy. Yet you might think, oh my God, I need more and more sugar to wake myself up, more and more caffeine. And so you have this impression of like the dopamine rush. And then on the inside, things are breaking down. If you actually want to allow your body to make energy, like it was always supposed to make it, which is efficiently, beautifully, easily, you have to reduce the glucose spikes

and you have to work with your mitochondria. Your mitochondria just want you to have a great time. They just want to give you all the energy in the world. So we need to work with them because they're so powerful. And when you steady your glucose levels, you give them back that power to give you the energy that you really want. And what's cool about the hacks as well is that I'm not asking you to never eat sugar ever again. I'm teaching you how to eat it in a way that gives you all the pleasure, all the dopamine, but with less impact on your glycation, on your mitochondria and on your health. That's why it's so powerful.

And we're going to get to some of those really, really shortly. Okay. So super clear on mitochondria. Insulin. Yeah. So your body knows that glucose spikes are not good for it. And it's trying to reduce the glycation and the mitochondrial overload. And it has one little tool that it uses. Your pancreas releases insulin into your body when a glucose spike is happening. And insulin is amazing. Her job is to take excess glucose out of the circulation and to store it away in places where it can no longer do harm. And insulin stores glucose away in your muscles, in your liver, and also in your fat cells. And that's one of the ways that we gain weight or fat on our body is by our body putting glucose away into our fat cells.

Now, the problem is too much insulin over time also has consequences. The most common one being insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes, but also something that's becoming more and more common in females, which is polycystic ovarian syndrome or fertility problems. The more insulin you have in a female body, the more your body is going to produce testosterone. That means in a female body, you're going to have this excess of male hormone.

This leads to consequences. Missed periods, cystic ovaries, infertility, acne, balding, hair growth on the face, et cetera. And often, and I'll just do a little PCOS sidebar here, often the way that PCOS is treated is by giving females the birth control pill because the pill contains female hormones. And so when you ingest female hormones with the pill, you're kind of bringing back the balance between female and male hormones. And so when you ingest female hormones with the pill, you're kind of bringing back the balance between female and male hormones. But then when you stop the pill, if you haven't addressed the underlying issue, the problem is still there. And so you see many

people who go off the pill because they want to have a baby and then they stop the pill and they're like, oh my God, I don't have my period. What's happening? I'm not ovulating. And that's often a sign of this excess insulin. And so that's why one of the most common things that I see in my readers is getting their period back. And in my pilot experiment for the glucose goddess method, three women who had been told they were never going to be able to have babies naturally got pregnant in those four weeks. Wow. It's really, really powerful that. Because again, it speaks to this idea, are we treating symptoms or dealing with the root cause? And I've seen the picture you just illustrated there play out with so many women with PCOS in practice in the past. I really have.

I've seen it so many times. And those symptoms, I can think back to certain patients, they are so distressing for women. You know, yes, not being able to get pregnant. Sure. That is clearly a massive thing. But, you know, if you're a woman and you've got facial hair. Or you're balding. Or you're going bald or really thinning hair. And one of my big frustrations in medicine is that we are not really taught to go for that root cause. And I think, again, broadening out the lens on blood sugar, if I think about, and you do this in both books actually really well at the start about really clearly demonstrating why this book and this approach is relevant to all of us. You mentioned infertility, you mentioned PCOS,

you mentioned menopausal symptoms, right? The menopause is something that is talked about a lot these days. It's one of the hot topics in health. And I understand why, because for many years, a lot of women don't feel it was taken seriously. A lot of women feel as though they were ignored by their doctors, perhaps. But you're also showing how stabilizing your blood sugar can lead to an improvement in menopausal symptoms. Listen, the scientific studies are very clear. The more glucose spikes you have, the more insulin you have, the worse your menopause symptoms, whether it's hot flashes, insomnia, etc. Like your hormonal system cannot function properly if your glucose and your

insulin are out of whack. It's just the hormonal axis is not going to work if you're on a glucose rollercoaster. And this is true for menopause symptoms, for PCOS, for PMS. So, you know, the premenstrual syndrome, endometriosis, fibroids, everything that's hormonally linked will get better when you study your glucose and insulin levels. It is truly the foundation of hormonal health is to have steady, balanced blood sugar. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. And I think, I don't know how you view this, Jesse. When I would talk to patients about blood sugar roller coasters, I'd often draw them a graph.

Yeah. You know, in a 10-minute consultation, I'd sit there and say, look, I just grab a piece of paper, you know, and I'd literally draw it out and I explain it. This time you're having this food, right? This is what's happening to your blood sugar. And then maybe two hours later, after it's high, it's coming down, it's crashing. And sometimes if you've been doing this a while, it will overshoot. One thing I would often say is that this is not just a blood sugar problem at that point,

it's also a hunger problem. It's also a stress on the body. I wonder if you could speak to that because I think that, for me at least, that really landed with patients. Your blood sugar falling rapidly is a stressor. Absolutely. So I actually just did a live with an amazing woman, Aviva Ram, who's really specialized in this, in glucose and stress, adrenals, thyroid. And she taught me a a lot she explained that when your body is going through this glucose roller coaster there is a certain amount of biological stress that happens as a consequence and that then impacts your your hormonal axis your thyroid axis your adrenal axis and that stress in and of itself can then lead to other problems in your body, whether it's mental health disturbances, whether it's inflammation, whether it's hormonal problems.

Because your body, like if you're stressed out, adrenals are stressed out, you're on a glucose rollercoaster, your body doesn't think it's safe to conceive. So you have all these side effects of that stress, that biological stress that lead to downstream symptoms. stress, that biological stress that lead to downstream symptoms. And we need to look back at the fact that, yeah, that glucose rollercoaster is causing stress on top of the inflammation and the glycation and the insulin release. Truly, I don't think there's a better place to start for your health. Like it is truly the foundation. You cannot have a healthy body if you're on a glucose rollercoaster. It's just not possible. You can manage, maybe you can be a high functioning glucose roller coaster, but it's just not going to work. You need that baseline. I love that. There's a lot of people at the moment who are high functioning glucose roller coasters, right? I love it. I love it.

Yeah. But you walk around, you see that and it it kind of will correlate with the 11 o'clock snack yes the extra coffee that's needed the bit of chocolate to keep you going the after dinner sugar you know the just scrolling on instagram to reduce your stress like there's so many of our habits that could be linked to trying to function on a glucose rollercoaster. And also most people don't know they're on a glucose rollercoaster. So it's not their fault. They're trying their best. They're trying to survive with all these symptoms, thinking the symptoms are normal, that if they can't handle them, they're weak, or they don't have enough willpower or feeling ashamed or guilty. I want people to know that

you can actually reduce those symptoms and they will go away. The first place to start is to study your glucose levels and you'll have such a different experience of your life. Instead of feeling controlled by these impulses and these symptoms that you can't do anything about, you can become reconnected with your body, with yourself, and you can partner with your mitochondria. I mean, it's just a much nicer place to be. This stress response often leads to sweats as well, I've seen with patients. And I know you write a little bit about this actually as well, that because if your body's under stress, that is one thing that may happen depending on who you are or what's going on in your life.

You may get sweats or, you know, one of the common reasons I've seen that people struggle with sleep is they wake up like three hours or so after going to bed because they've had a sweet snack before they go to bed and the sugar goes up. Yeah, and the crash and you wake up with a pounding heart. Exactly. And you're sweaty and like, whoa, what's going on? And that could be just because of a glucose crash in the middle of the night. Yeah. The solution to that is not the Oura ring or it's not a sleeping pill. The solutions of that is stabilize your blood sugar because then if you're not getting that up and down at night,

your sleep quality is going to be improved, right? You sleep much better. Yeah, some recent studies are actually showing us that the steadier your glucose levels are, the more restful your sleep is going to be, the deeper your sleep is going to be. Glucose and sleep are like two peas in a pod. They're very connected. And then if you haven't slept well, you're more likely to think I need sugar for energy, therefore creating another glucose rollercoaster. So it can either be a virtuous

cycle or it can be a vicious cycle. Yeah. And this is something, again, I think certainly my own experience of wearing a CGM has taught me really speak to what you just said, which is you can think you've had a good night's sleep, but someday, you know, you think I slept, but I'm waking up. I don't feel rested, but I don't think I was up that much. And of course there's a million possible reasons, confounding factors, right? This is not me talking about about this is not a scientific study, right? You've just mentioned the scientific study. I'm just mentioning my end of one experience.

But I have seen a strong correlation between when my sugar is stable in the evening and at night, I have more energy than that state, even if I think I've slept for the same amount of time. Absolutely. I've become sort of a sleeper. I'm really interested in sleep these days and I have everything. I have like the cool room ander. I'm really interested in sleep these days and I have

everything. I have like the cool room and the dark thing and the no noise and the pillow and everything. I just love sleeping. Yeah. You love stable blood sugars. Yes. And sleeping. I love sleeping. Yeah, I do. Do you like sleeping? I love sleeping. Sleeping is the best. I love early nights. I love waking up feeling fresh and full of energy. It's beautiful. You know, it's so nice. Yeah. Let's talk about some more hacks. Okay. So at the start of the conversation, you mentioned food order. And I really hope people put that into practice straight away because it can be transformative. Just switching a few things around. Yeah. Vinegar. You want to talk about vinegar? I love to talk about vinegar i love to talk about vinegar i'd also

love you to just drop in as well how certain cultures have had this within them as well because i think give us the modern science but give us the ancient wisdom as well let's talk about the ancient wisdom first so for centuries there are countries around the world where vinegar has been consumed i mean i'm french right in fr, we have vinaigrette on everything. Or in Iran, we're making apple cider vinegar is sort of a tradition that people do in their home and they drink it every day. And in the 18th century, vinegar was even given as a tea to people with type one diabetes. And so we've known culturally for a while that this is a good thing to eat. But only recently, we've discovered actually how it works. And to be perfectly transparent, when I first came across the vinegar stuff,

I was like, this must be a fad. I just didn't believe it. I was like, this is another Instagram thing. But then I looked at the studies, and they're actually incredible clinical trials showing the impact of vinegar on our glucose levels. So now I'm a big vinegar fan. So let me explain. Who funded that study? Was it Big Vinegar? No, actually, legit scientists across the world. In Brazil, there was this one review study that was incredible. It's all linked on my website and book if you want to check it out.

But the science showed that one tablespoon of vinegar before a meal, so either as a dressing or in a drink, it can be water, it can be tea, reduces the glucose spike of that meal by up to 30% and reduces the insulin spike of that meal by up to 20% without changing what you're eating afterwards. Simply by adding this vinegar at the beginning of your meal, you can see an impact on your glucose levels. Now, of course, you know, I don't want people to think, oh, it's a magic pill. I'm just going to change nothing and just do the vinegar. The vinegar is one of several tools that become very useful in your day-to-day life. What I recommend in the Glucose Goddess Method, in week two, we go over vinegar. Yeah, that's a whole week. I saw it in your day-to-day life. What I recommend in the glucose goddess method, in week two, we go over vinegar. Yeah, there's a whole week.

I saw it in the new book. And there's all these beautiful recipes and I made it really fun and gorgeous because people are like, oh, vinegar? Like what? Drink vinegar? That sounds gross. Don't worry.

I have a lot of delicious mocktails. Well, actually in the book, there was this, the photography is gorgeous in the new book. It really is. And there was one image. I can't remember what it was. It was in the vinegar section where it almost looks as though you're in a bar having a cocktail,

but actually it's vinegar, right? Yes. And I made all these really gorgeous, delicious vinegar mocktails. Because why not create a little, you know, special occasion, a little ritual around having your vinegar once a day? Why not? Yeah, there's one of my favorite mocktails in the book is the Mother Apple Spritzer. And I thought apple cider vinegar is the most commonly used vinegar where you can use any of them. And I thought, hey, you know, we don't often think about apple cider vinegar's mother,

which are apples. So I wanted to make a mocktail that really, you know, helped apple shine. So anyway, that's a sidebar. You'll find it in the book. It's gorgeous. Vinegar before a meal, beautiful, simple impact on your glucose levels. There are even some pilot studies showing that by adding vinegar once a day, females with PCOS are able to reduce their testosterone without changing anything else about their diets. Yeah, I mean, this is profound. I mean... But isn't it crazy? It is. It's crazy.

Well, what's crazy is that, I mean, those numbers are frankly incredible, right? And what's also crazy is that this has been in cultures for a long time, for thousands of years. There's a lot of natural health proponents, naturopaths, nutritional therapists, who for many years will have been recommending apple cider vinegar. They will have said, if you have that to blanch your blood sugar response. So I think there's been a lot of wisdom that's been out there. Perhaps, you know, the modern scientific method has only just kind of explained and given the credibility to some people who need that. I actually really appreciate knowing how it works

and seeing the data. It's easier for me to adopt a new habit if I'm able to see the scientific studies showing like, hey, this works. But there's also other things that we can't do a scientific study about that I'm still going to do. You know, I'm not going to wait for people to say, I don't know, having friends is important for your blood sugar for me to do it. I mean, it makes sense that if you're happy, relaxed, emotionally connected, your blood sugar is going to be better, but I'm not going to wait for that

study. Let's talk about vinegar then. So what does that practically look like? So let's say someone's going to have their lunch, right? And it's a work ado, right? So they can't really change too much about the content of what's in that lunch, but they're concerned based on what they've heard that it may spike their blood sugar and it may cause them a 3 p.m. crash, needing more sugar and more coffee. Right. So they've now heard about vinegar. So let's say their lunch meal is at 1 p.m. Yeah. Right. Let's, you know, talk us through what you want them to do, or at least consider doing with vinegar to blunt their sugar response.

Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour,

and I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits and improve our relationships. There are of course many different ways to journal and as with most things it's important that you find the method that works

best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine.

I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. Before I answer that, I will say I also am often caught saying that you should only do the hacks when it's easy. So if it's too stressful to organize a vinegar drink, don't do it. It's okay. But if you have vinegar accessible, let's say your lunch is at 1 p.m., I want you at 12.45 to go grab a tall glass of water.

I could demonstrate. I even have sparkling water here. A tall glass of water, sparkling water, any water, tea, whatever. One tablespoon of vinegar in it. It can be apple cider vinegar. It can be white wine vinegar. It can be cherry vinegar, whatever.

Just avoid the very syrupy balsamic glaze vinegar because that's more sugar than it is vinegar. And then you just drink it. So you can have it with a straw if you want to be extra cautious of protecting your teeth's enamel. But once it's diluted, it's usually fine. And then you just go have your lunch. That's about it. The ideal timing is to have this 10 minutes before you start eating, but you can also have it during or after the meal and it will also have an impact. Yeah. I love the way you just make it so practical that ideally it's 10 minutes, right? But hey, if it's 15 minutes before or five minutes before or during or after, you're still going to get a benefit. And I think that's so

important because one thing I've experienced from trying to write books or trying to give information to people to try and improve their lives is that sometimes it's taken very literally. Oh, you said 15 minutes. And then that could create a stress that, oh man, it's 12.46. She told me to have it at 12.45. I've missed it, but it's not that. And I think that wider point as well is really, really important that, hey, listen, if you don't have vinegar around, don't worry about it. It's when you can do them. Some Sundays I wake up and I want chocolate ice cream for breakfast and I'll just have it. No vinegar before, no veggies before,

whatever. I'll just eat the ice cream that I want to eat. It's like, what I want people to take away from all this is the science of the glucose hacks, but then doing the hacks and also not doing the hacks are both parts of this new revolution you're using on your body and you're helping your health with. So it's not a diet. It's not restrictive. Just use it. Use the hacks when you can and the rest of the time, live your life. Just by using one hack for, you know, once in a month is already better than not using it. Yeah. How often do you have chocolate ice cream on a Sunday morning?

Last time, I think it was probably six months ago. Six months ago. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't really happen very often, but you know, it has happened. And I want people to know that when I want to, I do. Yeah. No, I love that.

I never thought I'd be talking to the glucose goddess talking about having chocolate ice cream on a Sunday morning. But I love that. I think thought I'd be talking to the glucose goddess talking about having chocolate ice cream on a Sunday morning, but I love that. I think people are gonna really love that image. People have a misconception about me. They think that I never eat sugar and I never eat starches. I'm actually a huge sugar fan.

I love sugar. I love pasta. I probably eat sugar every single day. So I'm not here to tell you to never eat it again. I'm not here to demonize it. I'm here to tell you, let's eat it. Maximum pleasure minimal impact on our body. Because I don't want people to suffer. I don't want people to get diabetes. I want people to put diabetes into remission. I want people to get their period back. I want their mental health to be better, their skin to be clearer, to sleep

better, et cetera. But also the cool thing about this science is that it allows us to do all that without giving up any of the foods that we love. And that's so beautiful. And that's why in the Glucose Goddess Method, the new book, I teach you every week to put a hack in place in your life, like a gentle giant. And the rest of the time you do whatever you want. There's no restrictions at all.

And it's incredibly powerful as you see from the results. What I think so clever about it is that by making it feel achievable, it becomes very inclusive. People want to follow you. People want to do it. And they're going to feel so much better so quickly that it will lead to what I call a ripple effect, that that one change is going to lead to a barrage of other positive changes, right? So let's say, I know we can, and we're going to talk about movement in relation to blood sugar, but let's say just generalized movement. We know that moving more is typically a good thing and many of us are not moving enough, right? But

a lot of the time people are not moving enough because they feel rubbish and they're tired and they're sluggish. They've got no energy. So they're like, I can't be bothered going to the gym. I can't be bothered going for a walk. Stabilize your blood sugars with these very gentle hacks. You're going to have more energy. Your memory is going to be better. Your brain's going to function more clearly. And then you're naturally going to actually move your body more, right? So you must, I'm sure you've had that experience from people in your community. Absolutely. And I think the issue you described where somebody is just sluggish and doesn't want

to do stuff, they're often met with the advice of just eat better and exercise more. And unfortunately for a lot of people, that advice is too vague to even, you know, sort of start doing anything about it. It becomes overwhelming. It's like daunting. What do you mean eat better, more vegetables, exercise more? Like, I don't know. What I've solved, I believe, is a very important motivation issue.

I've distilled the science down into these very simple things that are additive to your life. And as a result, you know, you put your foot in the, what's it called, the etrier in English, the thing on the horse, you know? You put your foot in the stirrup. Yes. You put your foot in the stirrup and it called? The etrier in English, the thing on the horse, you know? You put your foot in the stirrup.

Yes. You put your foot in the stirrup and then, you know, you ride the horse. And that first step is so freaking difficult. But with the hacks, it becomes very, very, very easy. Don't eat your carbs naked. Okay, right. Let's talk about that because I think this is a really, really good hack. And maybe I'll share with you what I did a few weeks ago with my kids. Well,

okay. This is not common, right? So I guess like your Sunday morning chocolate ice cream, this is not very common. But a few weeks ago, I cannot remember the exact ins and outs of what was going on, but I think it was just before dinner or at dinner time. There wasn't that much in the house and there was some white rice. And I thought, I can't just have this white rice by itself. So I opened the cupboards and there was some nut butter. So I scooped in. Exactly. This is not not common this is what my kids were seeing at the same time and I wasn't tracking anything right but I also know about stable blood sugars and I thought actually come on

so I put in two or three big scoops of nut butter I have so many questions right okay my kids do and they still tease me about it and I had it and I wasn't tracking anything but the reason I did it. Now I wasn't tracking anything but the reason I did it, A, is because I know actually adding that to it is likely to slow down the sugar release.

You put clothes on your carbs. And I happen to enjoy that, right? I haven't had it much but I did enjoy it. So my question is, is it good? I can have some quite unusual taste from time to time. I enjoyed it. I like white rice. I like nut butter. It's like Joey and friends, you know? Did you see that episode where they make like a pie, but it has meat in it. So it's sweet and meat.

And he's like, I like meat. I like pie, meat and pie together. Yeah. Well, listen, I haven't done it since. And the kids keep saying, Daddy, why did you do that? It's disgusting. I said, listen, taste is a subjective experience.

Daddy actually really liked that. So they said, you're going to put that in one of your books. I said, look, taste is a subjective experience. Daddy actually really liked that. So they said, you're going to put that in one of your books. I said, look, I don't know. I'm not sure it's going to take off yet. But the principle I think relates very much to, I'm going to guess one of your most popular hats. I don't know if it is, but that term naked carbs is quite provocative, right? What does it mean and why should you put clothes on your carbs? So let me ask you a question back. Why did you feel like you didn't want to eat the white rice by itself? Yeah, you know, the truth is I'm taking one isolated incident, right? And I don't want to put too much on it because I don't really do it. I, as a general rule at the moment, I'm trying to...

I have been, probably since I put my CGM on about three months ago for two weeks and I saw the impacts of certain things, I've not been wearing it, but I've just been making subtle tweaks, you know, like movement after exercise, movement after eating, things like that, which we're going to talk about, to stabilize blood sugar. Now, I was hungry as well. I was really hungry. And I thought this white rice is going to go into my stomach. And about an hour later, I'm going to be starving again. Yes. Right. So that's why I did it. I'm not promoting it to people to be ready for it, but that was my experience. So if I were in this situation and I was also faced with the white

rice, I would think, okay, so starches, right? So rice, pasta, potatoes, things that are starchy. If I eat them on their own, because they're basically glucose molecules attached, they're going to create a big glucose spike. So if you eat pasta on its own, rice on its own, bread on its own, it's going to create a spike in your body. And then inflammation, glycation, aging, insulin, and then the crash. So cravings, hunger, et cetera. So I would think I need to put some clothing on them. And that's exactly what you did.

So putting clothes on your carbs means that when you eat carbs, so starches or sugars, you add protein, fat, or fiber to them. So you did exactly that. You put clothing on your carbs. As a result, you reduced the glucose spike of that food. And so it didn't change the fact that you were eating the food. And I'm glad

that the nut butter plus rice even tasted delicious to you. You can borrow that recipe. I will, I think, actually cancel everything. I need to add a recipe into the new book. But by putting clothes on your carbs, you're able to steady the blood sugar and reduce the glucose spike of the meal. So let me give you some like common examples. So if you're going to have some pasta, for example, instead of having the pasta plain, maybe throw in like a little bit of chicken in there, maybe a little bit of cheese, some olive oil, a few, I don't know, salad leaves, like arugula or whatever, just to put some clothes on that pasta. If you're having rice, I think my, I would not go for the nut butter. I think I would go for like maybe some roasted cauliflower, broccoli and some tahini. And I would just make a little, little.

To be fair, if there was some roasted broccoli or cauliflower tahini around, I think I would have gone for that. I don't think this was first choice. Let's put it like that. I feel you. And then when it comes to sweet foods, so if I'm at a birthday party or I don't think this was first choice. Let's put it like that. I feel you. And then when it comes to sweet foods. So if I'm at a birthday party or I don't know, I want to have a cookie, I'll think, okay, are there any clothes I can add to it? So maybe with the slice of chocolate cake, I'll have a Greek yogurt. And actually that's one of my all-time favorite clothes on carbs combinations, chocolate cake and Greek yogurt together. Super, super good. Well, let's just go on that one because that's quite an interesting one. So you've tracked this

on yourself, right? So what happens when you have the chocolate cake on an empty stomach by itself versus when you have the chocolate cake with Greek yogurt? So when your stomach is empty, and actually breakfast is also a good topic we should cover, but when your stomach is empty and you have sugar or starches, so if I had the chocolate cake on an empty stomach, the molecules in the cake would arrive in my stomach quickly and then make their way quickly to my bloodstream because there'd be nothing there to sort of slow them down or anything. So I would see a big glucose spike in my body. And that would lead to some consequences, notably kicking off a cravings rollercoaster. So kicking off a glucose rollercoaster all day, that will lead to cravings,

craving fatigue, craving fatigue, craving fatigue. So I don't really want to do that. I want to eat the cake, but I don't want the cravings rollercoaster. So what I did is I added some Greek yogurt, which is proteins and fats. And I ate it at the same time as the chocolate cake. You can, if you want to have the yogurt before, which is more ideal for your glucose levels based on that food order thing. But to be honest, like sometimes I don't want to do the food order specifically with the chocolate cake situation. I want to have it with the yogurt. And as a result, combined to the glucose molecules in the cake, I'm also adding proteins and fats. And so when that little mixture arrives into my stomach, the glucose molecules are slowed down because there's other stuff going on there.

There's the proteins and the fats. And so I'm eating the same cake, but the speed at which the glucose in the cake is arriving in my bloodstream is much slower. As a result, not a big spike, but rather sort of a moderate spike. And with that moderate spike, fewer consequences on glycation, mitochondria, insulin, and then less creation of that cravings rollercoaster. And I want to touch on this point a bit more because we need to learn to eat sugar in a way that doesn't create that cravings rollercoaster, which is also a lot of people call sugar addiction. You will hear a lot of people say, I'm addicted to sugar. And actually, if you look at it, it's very possible

that they're creating that addiction by having, for example, on an empty stomach in the morning, first thing, something sweet or something starchy. And then if your breakfast is just starches and sugars, your entire day is going to be one big roller coaster and you're going to be controlled by these cravings all the time yeah so so important i think we'll get to breakfast in just a second so i do agree with you that it's one of the most important meals to get right and you know whether you have breakfast in the morning or you have it at lunchtime whenever it is that first meal yes is a is a crucial one to try and stabilize your blood sugar. Otherwise, you end up fighting it for much of the day, right? But for any parents, right, who, you know, I think this has real relevance

to all of us, but let's say their kids are coming back after school and they are hungry and they want a snack, a lot of the snacks that are given are carb-based, right? So what advice would you give to parents in this situation? I guess you've given it with the clothes on your carbs, but it's such a common thing that I think it's such a simple way that parents can immediately impact their kids. I have so many ideas. One is if your kid is open to it, what if you gave them some leftovers from lunch? If your kid really wants to eat something sweet, then you have a few options. You can give them the sweet thing, but give them something else at the same time. So, you know, give the cookie with some almonds, give the pop tarts with a yogurt, you know, never let those starches and sugars arrive into the body naked, because then it's

going to create a big roller coaster. And in kids, you know, that roller coaster also has consequences, notably on mood, on energy and irritability, you know, tantrums, etc. So it's just as important. And all the hacks in the book you can use also in your family. Yeah, no, for sure. And I think that's a key point, Jessie, that a lot of parents may not be aware that let's say their kids playing up at 5.30, 6pm, 6.30 may not just be to do with fatigue. It may be to do with the snack you gave them after school. And I say that with all my heart full of compassion to say, listen, I just want to really shine a light on that for people to go, oh, wait a minute.

There'll be someone who just heard that and thought, wait a minute, maybe that's why my son is playing up every night, two hours after their sweet snack at school. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important. And it's hard, you know, we're not trained to understand how to connect the dots between the food and the symptoms because there are a few reasons. First of all, like if you ate something sweet and immediately you had a panic attack and you fell asleep on your bowl, like you would know, you'd be like, oh wow, it was that cereal bowl. But since it takes hours to see the impact and things compound over time, there's other stuff happening in your life. It's not always easy to play detective and be like, oh, this tantrum is because of the snack two hours ago. But it's

quite an easy thing to test and it can't hurt, right? It can't hurt for sure. Now, one thing I really wanted to talk to you about is the relationship between blood sugar and our moods. And of course, there's this whole idea that blood sugar, you know, initially people think about it with type 2 diabetes, then they may broaden it out a little bit to think about other things to do with their physical health. But I think very few people across society are drawing a link

between sugar ups and downs in their blood and their moods. I want to go back to your story when you were 19. It's uncanny how many people who sit opposite me in the studio have had some major life experience at some point, which has meant that they've done something in some way, which means that they end up on a podcast talking about it. It's the suffering, you know, when you're suffering so much, you have no choice but to go and figure shit out. Excuse my French, but it's just out of that pain. You just really often just want to just find answers. I think that might be why there's such a link. Yeah. Now I want to talk about the link between blood sugar and the way you felt. Before we do that, as I was reading your first book, there was a really powerful section

towards the start. You are explaining that experience, okay? And you were explaining the moments before you had to go into surgery. And I wrote it down. You wrote, if I could wake up on the other side of this, I knew I would be filled with gratitude for the rest of my life. Do you remember that moment? Oh yeah. I was so scared of dying. I was so scared. So I had broken my back four weeks ago. I was so scared of dying. I was so scared. So I had broken my back four weeks ago. I had been transported in a medical situation all the way back to Switzerland for this operation in this clinic. And I had just been immobilized for, you know, four weeks. And the doctors came in and they were telling me what they were going to do. They from the side take out all your organs then find the pieces of the broken vertebrae take them out close the side open the back and then put this cage in put the metal rods drill some stuff into your spine put the pieces back and then we'll close

you up by the way we might perforate your you know lung envelope or something so you might wake up with a perforated lung but hey we'll try not to do it. Everything will be cool. You ready? And I'm like, what? And I was so scared. And my body was in such a state of stress and there was nothing I could do. No, I could feel just this fear of dying. That was so intense. But yes, I remember very well. Well, what's interesting to me, first of all, thank you for sharing that. And that does sound, you know, as you were describing that, I mean, that is huge. You're 19 years old, you're being told in graphic detail what's about to happen. That of course is incredibly scary. That part, if I get through this, I will be filled with gratitude for the rest of my life. Why that really fascinates me, Jessie, is big life experiences often happen to us. And in that moment, we think, you know, if we get through this, I'm going to look at the world differently. And then we get through

something and for a few days, for a few weeks, for a few months, right? The memory is still there. And we're feeling that intense gratitude. Given that that was over a decade ago, do you still feel that gratitude? And where I'm really fascinated by this is, obviously we had a coffee before we started in my kitchen, we were chatting. You seem to be someone to me who, despite an extraordinary amount of success in a short period of time, you strike me as someone who is really grounded, who's not let that attention go to their heads, right? And I'm always fascinated what's going on in people who are able to do that. Is your accident, is that gratitude

part of the story? I absolutely think it is. And that gratitude from surviving the surgery, actually, it only lasted a few days, but the one gratitude that lasted forever and still I carry with me today is the gratitude of waking up in the morning and having my mental health be good because after the accident after all the mental health struggles I went through having my mental health became even more powerful in me feeling grateful so let me give you an example you know I'm in London right now and I'm staying in an Airbnb for 10 days by myself. And for years, I could never be alone. I could not sleep in a house by myself. I really couldn't be alone for more than 30 minutes because my mental health was so broken that I would get so anxious and scared of just existing. So to me, when I wake up in the morning, I'm like,

wow, I'm actually okay. I'm alone and I'm okay. That drives me every single day, much more than the surviving the accident. That to me, if I had a day, my mental health was good. I didn't want to die. I didn't feel terrified about being alive. That's an amazing day. And to me, that is the biggest success, biggest wealth I could ever, ever, ever, ever have. Do you have a set practice to make yourself consciously aware of that each day? Yes. Every evening, and I've been doing this for four years, I use an app called Dalio, which is like a very sort of basic like journaling app. And every evening before I go to bed at 10pm, I rate my mental health on a scale of one to five in that app. And every evening before I go to bed at 10 p.m., I rate my

mental health on a scale of one to five in that app. And then I put a little entry about how that day went. And so I can show you my phone afterwards. I have four years worth of daily little color per day showing my mental health. And no matter what happens, maybe I'll have like a difficult day at work. Maybe somebody will say I'm stupid on the internet. Like it doesn't matter because if my mental health was okay, that little rating in the app will be a five out of five. You know, they're different, completely different things. Like the work thing and the success, that's amazing. But ultimately, I go to bed every single night and what matters the most to me is my health and my brain and if I feel okay because I don't I think it's hard to understand like the depth of the angst and suffering that

I was going through being alive had become the most terrifying thing I could ever imagine ever so it's like if you're really scared of spiders I'll get like a living tarantula from Australia and glue it to your forehead and tell you, you can't touch it. It's alive. It's moving. You can't do anything. I felt that way about life. Just being alive was the scariest thing.

Being in a body was the scariest thing ever. Like it went really far, the pain and the suffering. So today, the fact that I took the train for two hours by myself, I felt happy. I didn't feel dissociated, anxious, depressed, scared of being alive. That's just going to be the best feeling ever for the rest of my life. When do you think that started to change for you? That fear of being alone, that fear of being alive, when did that start to shift to, I'm okay being alone. I have gratitude now for being alive. There were a few steps. I think one, learning about glucose was a very important first step

in me reconnecting with my body and feeling and knowing that I could trigger those episodes of immense existential fear with glucose spikes. I was like, whoa. Let's just pause on that a minute. I don't want to get in the way of your answer because I think it's absolutely profound what you're sharing. This is a point I don't think people get that you're saying that feeling of an existential crisis, well, let's broaden it out, panicky, anxious, feeling stressed. That can sometimes be because your blood sugar is going up and down right it's it's a biological it's a physiological problem not necessarily a psychological problem being on a glucose roller coaster can trigger a vast range of symptoms for me it was these extreme episodes

of anxiety and brain fog oh brain fog is a fascinating topic as well. Brain fog would become overpowering, super anxious, super stressed, not okay. And when I first discovered that glucose spikes could be one of the triggers, that completely changed my life. Because instead of feeling powerless towards this symptom and this feeling, I was like, oh my God, wait a minute, this feeling. I was like, oh my God, wait a minute. You're saying that in the way that I'm eating, I'm triggering these moments? That blew my mind. And I finally felt like I had some power back. I was like, for 10, eight years, I had been a victim to this, not knowing when these episodes were happening, being too scared of being alone all the time. And then learning about glucose, it was the beginning of the rest of my life because I thought, hey, I can impact how I'm feeling. I can change these symptoms

if I learn about my glucose levels. What a beautiful, powerful place to be. Yeah, it's really interesting. I'm drawn to thinking about some of the trials on diet and mental health. Let's talk about the SMILES trial, for example, in 2017, when they showed depression can be influenced by a 12-week change in diets. Now, I've not read the paper for a while. I can't remember what's in the discussion at the end, but when they're querying what's going on here, I don't recall blood sugar being part of the conversation I recall things like the saying could it be the omega-3 content of the Mediterranean diet in that trial is it the impact of all the diversity and plant foods on the microbiome

and that's an affecting mood and of course those things can be playing a role but it could also be that you're eating a minimally processed food diet that's going to stabilize your blood sugar. Yes, and there are studies maybe that have come out since then, I think, that show that the more glucose spikes you have, the worse your symptoms of anxiety and depression are. So that was the first step for me, being like, my food is impacting how I'm feeling, my mental health. And then when I studied my blood sugar, not only did these episodes happen way less, but also so many other things fell into place that I didn't even think were a symptom or a thing. I thought it was normal, you know, the fatigue and the cravings and the pimples. And I just thought it was normal. So that changed a lot. But then I layered onto that. Once I felt like quite strong in that base, I layered onto that just amazing

therapy, EMDR and the shaking and the everything and the journaling. And I started bringing together all these practices and over time, slowly, you know, I've been able to heal myself. And that is to me, I'm so, I'm so proud of it. Like, I'm so happy about it. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's funny as you say that, as we record this literally a few hours ago, the new episode with Bessel van der Koet just went out. And in that conversation, he was chatting about EMDR and what a powerful therapy it can be for certain people in certain instances. It helped me so much. Did it? Yes. It helped me a lot. Really. It's quite amazing. And I, you know, I used it for so many things,

notably at the beginning for like that incident of the accident, jumping off the waterfall before the surgery, having my first panic attack, all those moments with EMDR, I was able to go back and give myself the love and the resources and the tools and the compassion that I didn't have in those moments and to process some of that you know traumatic stuff you strike me as someone who is very open-minded yeah you clearly are a disciple of science right you'd like to study you like to research you like to report on science and communicate it

but I think there's another side to you as well that doesn't necessarily need to not fit alongside a scientist. And I really like that because you seem to be someone who's very spiritual. Very spiritual, yes. Yeah. And I think a lot of people have the view that you're, not you, but one is either, you know, scientific or they're spiritual. People love boxes. They love boxes. Yeah, but you're someone who I think

beautifully straddles both of those spaces. And I'm also a musician, but that's totally secret. Nobody knows because the boxes thing, you know? So right now I have my biochemist hat on, but I'm also super spiritual. And I also speak to my body and, you know, I feel connected to the universe and I get insights and things that are not from scientific studies, but both can exist.

You know, I love that about myself. The balance, the contradiction as well. The contrast is really nice. Yeah. I've heard that you like to ground. I do. Yes, I love. You do too? I do. Well, what does it mean to you? And now let's find out what you like to ground. I do. Yes, I love. You do too?

I do. Well, what does it mean to you? And now let's find out what it means to me. Well, I mean, technically, actually, grounding is putting your feet or your hand on the earth, right? So I love putting my feet on the grass and just like feeling my nervous system calm down. And I started learning about the science behind it,

which again blew my mind like when you ground there are actual electrons from your body that go into the earth's nervous system and you connect your body and the earth's nervous system your nervous system the earth's nervous system connect and regulate you like hello that's, that's insane. That's so, so cool. And people say there are aliens don't exist. Like guys, come on. Like we're doing alien stuff. Like how cool is that? And now we even know that that has an impact on your glucose levels. A study that I just shared on my Instagram a couple of weeks ago showed that if you ground, and okay, this is a lot, it's for the study, eight hours a day, too much, but it's for the study. You can reduce your glucose levels by 50 milligrams per deciliter.

That's probably like three millimoles per liter. That's a lot. It's huge in people with type 2 diabetes. In just a week of doing eight hours of grounding a day, nothing else has changed. Because it reduces your stress levels and it has all these wonderful side effects on your body. So yeah, I love grounding. It's amazing. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's simply,

I'm lucky enough to have a garden and pretty much every morning, particularly now as we're recording this in February, right? But it does feel as though spring is in the air. Absolutely. Which means in the morning I'm out, I'm barefoot, I'm on the grass. I'm often drinking my coffee on the grass.

And we have a phrase in the family because I always try and do it with the kids when they're up, and we call it power from the earth. As a family, that's what we call it. And to me, what does it do? You know, really, it's fascinating to hear the science. It really is. But a few years ago, I thought for me, I don't even need science for this right I feel good when I'm barefoot on the grass just as I feel good when I'm on a beach and I'm barefoot on the beach right it feels good to me and I think I feel like I'm someone who has lived much of my life in my head and so I think grounding is not only literally putting my feet on the earth, it's also kind of metaphorically for me, it's rooting myself. It's like I really try and feel my feet on the ground, the pressure going into my feet, you know, coming out of my head and into my body. I love that. I have a very strong,

how can I remember the word? Is it introspection? It's the feeling of being able to feel what's going on inside your body. Introseption. Introseption. Thank you so much. And I have that very strongly.

And so when I'm grounding, I can feel the energy moving from my upper body to my lower body. And I think because of my accidents and my spine and all that metal there, there was a sort of blockage. So it's really, really helpful when I go on the ground and I just feel that energy just, you know, going down into my legs and connecting. It feels so nice. Oh, we could go down a huge rabbit hole here, but I'm going to pull us back a little bit. a huge rabbit hole here, but I'm going to pull this back a little bit. Not because I'm not enjoying that, but because I really, I want to make this so practical for people. I want to be

able to get your books for sure, to get all the science and all the tips, but I really want some kind of, maybe we could go through some common foods, for example, or common things that people do just to explain blood sugar and maybe what people might be able to do like about it to limit the spike. Oats, right? I was going to say oats. Oats, right? A common breakfast food all over the world, which may not be the best thing in all situations. Talk to us about oats. So oats are a grain and grains are full of starch. And as I explained, there's two types of food that create glucose spikes in the body, starches and sugars.

So oats are a starch. And actually, if you look at starch, it's just one long chain of glucose molecules attached hand to hand. And when you eat starch, those glucose molecules get freed and then it creates a glucose spike. So oats in the morning, if you're just having oats, you're just having starch, which means glucose spike. So if you have oats and you feel hungry two hours after eating them, or if you feel tired at any moment during the day, or if you have other symptoms that you want to take care of, you might want to look at your oats situation. You have two options.

One, you can learn to put some clothes on those oats. So maybe some nut butter, maybe you can put some protein powder in there. Maybe you have a little egg, you know, a little soft boiled egg in the oats, make it like savory oats. You can find lots of nice little combinations to put protein, fat, and fiber in the oats. Other option, you just change your breakfast completely. And you go for what I call the savory breakfast. And in the glucose guidance method, lots of recipe ideas, beautiful. But the principle is the following. A savory breakfast that keeps your glucose level steady and helps you feel amazing is built around protein. So eggs, fish, nuts, tofu, protein powder,

leftovers from dinner. One of my favorite ways to get protein. I had leftover butter chicken for breakfast this morning. I had Indian food last night, butter chicken for breakfast. Perfect. And then you can add some fiber, some fat to that. So, you know, olive oil, butter, avocados, maybe a bit of spinach if you want. And then the most important thing to remember is that in a savory breakfast, you should not eat anything sweet, except if you want some whole fruit for taste. No fruit juices, no jam, no sweet cereal, no sweet yogurts, etc. You can still have sweet foods later in the day, but for breakfast,

if you want to set yourself up for success, it's very important to not have sweet food. And then starch you can as well, but for taste. So you can have some oats before taste, you know, if your body really feels like them. So a lot of people will feel that they don't have time in the morning to make a breakfast and they will get on the road to work and they'll stop off at a coffee shop and they'll pick up a coffee and they may get tempted with pan of chocolats or croissants or pastries. Get a ham croissant instead of a chocolate croissant, right? Because at least it has some protein in it. Or maybe on Sundays you can make a big batch of soft boiled eggs and you can take a couple with you every day or in my book I have a recipe for egg cups which are really delicious but at the

coffee shop maybe they have nuts maybe they have a toast with something savory on it yeah but I agree it's a difficult food landscape to navigate it really is and, you know, having a savory breakfast is game changing when you've never done it. You know, for years like you, I've been talking to patients about eat your dinner for breakfast, you know, cook too much and in the morning heat it up. And there's a couple of people to mind who I won't share their story now. I think I've spoken about them on the podcast before. And I wrote about one of them in one of my books. Completely different experience of life. Yes, I say that sentence. Absolutely.

It's just that they're going into the world, but their cognition, their work performance, their hunger, completely different. It's like stepping through the mirror, you know, in the movie. Yeah. And if you think about what is the common breakfast now in the West, and not only just the West, in India, where I used to go every other summer and spend six weeks in India, because that's where all my family used to live, and many of them still do. And I can still remember so clearly that, you know, I play with my cousins, but they were still at school in the summer, different timetables and different year and term times in India. They would have a

full-on meal before they went to school for the day. They'd have vegetable curries. They'd have a whole plate full of foods. And I remember, this is a little while ago now, but it all started to change when companies like Kellogg's got on and started marketing aggressively. And it changed to being, oh, these quick and easy. This is advancement, right? This is us making progress. We can make a quick and easy breakfast with cereal milk on top and off we go but actually through the lens of blood sugar huge difference this was invented we all used to eat breakfast that was just like any other meal yeah and then food companies were like cereal for breakfast let me think about that it's really cheap to make it's addictive people

will get pleasure from it let's tell them that they should have cereal and orange juice in the morning that was invented it's a marketing thing going on the best thing for breakfast is dinner I completely agree with you or even upgrade dinner in a pan

plus you crack two eggs so you make like a a little like a breakfast version of the dinner right but completely like if you have something sweet and starchy for breakfast,

massive glucose spike, glucose rollercoaster, sugar addiction, inflammation, poor energy. So breakfast is really the worst time to eat just sugars and starches. But it's the time where most of us eat just sugar and starches. And it's the common breakfast for children. I know. And I understand the pressure on parents, you know, maybe two parents working, maybe not enough time, you know, financial concerns. I understand all of that. And not knowing, but it really isn't the best breakfast to give your kids, even from a

school performance perspective. And I wonder how many behavioral issues at school, mid-morning, right, which get detentions and get sanctions for in the school. How many of those are actually blood sugar issues? It'd be very interesting to do a study on that someday. You know, I grew up eating a Nutella crepe every morning for breakfast from the ages of, I don't know, five to like 16. Nutella crepe. Now that does sound delicious. And then I was exhausted at 11. I felt so hungry that my stomach would hurt, you know, and it definitely affected my day on a daily basis. I just thought it was normal, but no, it was not normal. What has your research shown about plant milks? A lot of people

these days are having almond milk, rice milk, oats milk. What does that do to blood sugar? And presumably it matters what they're having it with. It matters what they're having it with, but also matters what it's from. So if you look at milks that come from starches, so rice and oats are starches. When you make a milk out of them, you're essentially making liquid starch. And that's just pure glucose. When you look on a glucose monitor at what happens when you drink an oat milk coffee versus a cow's milk coffee, I mean, it's night and day. The oat milk or the rice milk will create a big glucose spike in the body. And it makes sense because you're just drinking liquid starch. So it's pretty

obvious if you think about the source of it. If you have something like almond milk, at least almonds don't have that much starch in them. So it's a much better situation. Coconut milk is also better. Cow's milk if you're into dairy. But oat milk, unfortunately, massive, massive spikes in most people. Now, I know people really love oat milk. So here's my recommendation. If you don't have many symptoms and you feel pretty great and you have good energy, no cravings, whatever, no problem, and you love the oat milk, go ahead. I have nothing to teach you.

But if you could feel better than you currently do and if you want to help some of the symptoms you might be feeling, you might want to consider switching to another type of milk. Or you can also do another hack I have, which is if you want to eat something sweet, have it at the end of a meal instead of on an empty stomach. So to me, oat milk is like essentially sweet. So you can have it after your breakfast instead of on an empty stomach before breakfast. You can also go for a little walk afterwards. You can use some of the hacks to reduce its impact on your glucose, but

really it's not, it's not the vibe. Yeah. It's not the best. No. Movement and blood sugar. This is quite an easy hack for people. It's been in many cultures for years, but as you've already explained, we've lost a lot of this kind of cultural wisdom. What is the relationship between movement and blood sugar and how can we utilize movement to mitigate the effects of what we've eaten? So, you know, the mitochondria I was telling you about earlier. So the little factories that make energy in our muscles, we have a lot of mitochondria and they turn glucose into energy so that your muscles can contract. So when you're walking, when you're dancing, when you're lifting weights, you know, playing whatever team sports, your muscles are using glucose to power themselves.

And so we can use that to our advantage. And here's the hack. After a meal, use your muscles for 10 minutes. Now this can be just walking. It can be cleaning your kitchen. It can be doing my new favorite thing, which is calf raises. kitchen. It can be doing my new favorite thing, which is calf raises. So you just sit at your desk and you just like put your feet, plant it on the floor and you just raise your feet up on your toes. So only your toes are touching and you do these calf raises or calf pushups for like five minutes.

In any way you want to use your muscles, it's going to be helpful because as you're contracting your muscles, the glucose from the meal as it arrives in your bloodstream is going to be soaked up by your muscles and used for energy. So you're going to reduce the glucose spike of that meal without needing to change what's in the meal at all. So yes, we can try and eat better quality meals to stabilize our blood sugar. We can change the food order. But let's say we don't want to make any changes and we've had a meal that we know possibly isn't the best for us in terms of blood sugar spikes. You're saying if we do 10 minutes of movement after that meal, we can mitigate the effects. Exactly. So within 90 minutes after the end of the meal, use your muscles a little bit. And really it can be super simple. You can be sitting on the couch watching a movie after dinner, grab a bottle of water,

and do like some bicep curls with the bottle of water. Anything, basically. Anything, anything, anything. And really, the calf raises are a really easy place to start. Your calf actually has a muscle called the soleus muscle, which is specifically excellent at soaking up glucose from the bloodstream. So the calf raises are a good option. I saw this on your Instagram grid recently. Profound. And like, I always look at things through an evolutionary lens and think, well, what is so unique about the calf muscle? We use it for walking. We use it for walking. Exactly. And then, yes, of course, bicep curls. of course, bicep curls, I get it, simple, easy hack. But then if we think about it, most movements in our evolutionary past, I can't imagine our hunter-gatherer ancestors would just,

for the sake of it, pick up something heavy and lift it. They're not going to be utilizing energy unless there's a good reason for it, right? So it kind of makes sense that the soleus, the calf muscle, would be quite important here, wouldn't it? Because it's like, no, to get around, to get food, to move anywhere, to get back to safety, you need to use your calf muscle. So I don't know, talk to me about that because it kind of makes sense a little bit, doesn't it? So you think that in hunter-gatherer days, the people didn't like work out for fun or like play games? Maybe they were playing games, right? Maybe you're like wrestling with your friends or... Hey, to be clear, I don't know, right? I'm not, I'm not going to quote you on this one. I'm just sort of hypothesizing. why might the soleus muscle be so good at disposing of glucose

compared to other muscles? Maybe it's because, I think you're right, I think the fact that we use it for walking means it needs to be really efficient at using energy. And your other muscles, of course, they use glucose, but this soleus muscle, it's very, very good at taking glucose from the bloodstream. So maybe it has something to do with that, that after you've eaten and you need to walk or run or whatever, you need to have a muscle that is going to be able to soak up that glucose immediately. Maybe. I don't know. I should look back at the study because I'm sure in the discussion they probably explain some hypotheses about why that's the case. Fruits versus dried fruits.

Oh my God. I think this is one of my favorite topics. Okay, let's go. So you know how people say, well it's fruit so it's natural yeah okay so i have a scoop for you the fruit that we have today in our supermarkets is not natural just like humans bred gray wolves into chihuahuas for their entertainment humans have been crossing and breeding fruit for millennia to make them more appetizing for humans, to make them sweeter,

to make them have fewer seeds, less fiber. If you look at an ancestral banana, it's tiny, it's full of seeds, it's quite dense and it's not very sweet. If you look at a banana today, it's very sweet, very little fiber, very little seeds, super easy to eat. Humans have been creating these fruits to be extra juicy and extra sweet and extra full of sugar. So that's one thing to note.

The fruit you see today in the supermarket is not natural. However, a piece of fruit still has fiber in it. And fiber is protective, as I explained at the beginning. Fiber helps reduce the glucose spike of a meal because it creates that mesh in the intestine. So if you want to eat something sweet, eating fiber is still the best, sorry, eating a piece of whole fruit

is still the best thing to do because of that fiber blunting the spike from the sugar. The problem arises when we denature that piece of fruit. So maybe we're going to juice an apple. As a result, we're removing all the fiber from the apple and we're concentrating the sugar that was already being concentrated for centuries by humans in that whole apple. When we dry fruit, we take away all of the water. So we concentrate the sugar and we eat way more pieces of dried fruit than we would have regular fruit. Yeah. And what's, I think, particularly concerning about that is there's quite a few companies now

which are targeting children with dried fruits. And I think many parents are, again, I always say this and I want to reiterate this point. I genuinely believe that all parents are doing the best that they can in the context of their life situation, the context of their knowledge. But I'm not sure that those dried fruit packets are the best thing to be giving our kids, particularly on an empty stomach. Yes. Although you could argue that dried fruit is better than like candy because at least it has some fiber in it but what would be even better if you really want to give dried fruit would be to pair it with some nuts for example yeah so you make a little snack with like a few like dried

apricots and then some pecans or whatever that's better because you're putting some clothes on the on the carbs right i get it and that's what i love about all your suggestions they can be applied by anyone in any situation no matter what diet they're following. Little hacks, little tweaks, just to make things a little bit better than they would have otherwise been, right? Exactly. We're not talking like big overhaul of your life, of your food habits. No, no, no. Small tweaks, big impact. Yeah. Adding those nuts into the dried fruit, you can see how it could be really tasty and change the blood sugar response. Now, just, I had a thought there, Jessie. A lot of the time, the cultural wisdom that's there,

we're now learning the modern science again. That's why that works. Now, the only place where I think your recommendations don't match up with certainly the ancient wisdom that I'm aware of is with fruits on empty stomachs. Because I know in Ayurvedic medicine for many years, they have been talking about if you're having a piece of fruit, have it before your meal, because then it's digested really easily and it doesn't then sort of fester on top of your meal afterwards. Now, first of all, I welcome your thoughts on that. But just a little addition there, based on what you just said about the fact that the way fruit is bred now compared to how fruit is bred in the past, maybe two or three thousand years ago, the fruit that we were getting, lower in sugar, not quite as sweet, maybe that worked then, maybe it doesn't work so well now, I don't know. But

what's your sort of perspective on that? Well, this is a very common question. And I was fascinated by it. I was like, okay, where does this come from? Like, why do we think that fruit rots in the stomach if it's eaten last? And through my research, I found that there was a doctor in the Renaissance who said that fruit, and this is a separate branch from the Ayurveda stuff, but this doctor said that if you eat fruit after a meal, it's going to rot and putrefy in your stomach and create all these vapors and stuff. That doctor just said that. I mean, I don't know where he pulled that out of, but it just is not true. Like nothing actually rots or putrefies in the stomach.

So that particular thing about the rotting is just not true. Nothing can rot in the stomach actually. So there is this ancient wisdom about having the fruits on an empty stomach or at the beginning of a meal. And to that, I say, well, we have two opposing views, right? We have the glucose science, which says, if you want to eat something sweet, the best time for your glucose is at the end of a meal. And we have ancient wisdom that could also, you know, have some really good sources. So maybe where we land is if you don't feel any discomfort by eating fruit after a meal, maybe you do that.

And if you're somebody and your body's like, no, it's not working, maybe it gives you bloating or whatever, then you switch it up. You know, it's up to you to sort of tailor these recommendations to other things going on in your life. So what you're recommending is we take a pragmatic, nuanced approach to our health. Mind-blowing. You know, it's 2023. That's not the way it goes. Yeah, I know. I know. And I think this is also why, you know, my work has been so well received is that it feels fresh and nice and it's no longer an extreme diet. It's not like cut out entire food groups. It's like, okay, guys, I think we're over diets. Like personally, I would rather we never, ever have any diets ever again. So what about we use all this recent

science and we find these principles that are easy, that have a big impact on our physical and our mental health, that are not very hard, don't cost any money. Yeah. And how about we do that? And people seem to be quite happy with that approach. Jesse, it's almost impossible now to have the audience size which you have and not get pushback.

I'm sure it's technically possible, but i would say it's almost impossible if and when people push back against your work what is the common thing they say and how do you respond so i've experienced like multiple waves of this um and i sort of categorize pushback or criticism in two camps. So there's like the stuff that really, I can't do anything about, for example, um, people who don't want to hear any information about food because it's no, but you know, because maybe they had an eating disorder in the past. Maybe they're just like, no. So for those people, my work is like, they just, they just hate it because I'm talking about food. Those things I don't really pay attention to because, they just hate it because I'm talking about food. Those

things I don't really pay attention to because, you know. It's not for them. Exactly. And then you have the useful criticism. And from the beginning of the Glucose Goddess project, I've always really listened to feedback, whether it's in comments or in DMs or in real life, like, because my purpose here is to make science accessible, to make it inclusive, to make sure that I'm serving the people that I want to give this information to. So I would say the biggest criticisms have been from people with type 1 diabetes. Maybe this was a year ago that it started happening, that they didn't like that I was using a glucose monitor as a person without diabetes. And I really listened very carefully to this because a lot of people were sharing with me how saddened it made them

that I was like showing my glucose monitor like, hey, I'm wearing a glucose monitor. And for them, it was a device that they need to survive. And so I really took that to heart. And I started thinking a lot about my glucose monitor approach and, you know, whether I think it's for everybody. I stopped also posting photos of myself with the device being like, hey, glucose monitor. Now I really am just like, I'm using it to make the illustrative graphs, but I no longer use it as like a fashion statement.

Yeah. You know? So that was really, really helpful. I think another thing that people push back on is the clothes on carbs thing. They say, yes, but if you take it to an extreme, it could be harmful. Like as I explained at the beginning, you could put two pounds of butter on a piece of bread and that would reduce the spike, but you need to have more nuance. And that I think I really address it in the book quite well.

address it in the book quite well. So I think you do address it really well. I think, you know, I've read both books and I think you're really clear that this is not to stress you out, right? This is not necessarily to be applied in every situation. This is to try and help you, right? Yeah, sure. In an ideal world, we'd all eat an exclusively whole food diet that was naturally stabilizing our blood sugars. But the reality is most people, or at least many people, Sure, in an ideal world, we'd all eat an exclusively whole food diet that was naturally stabilizing our blood sugars. But the reality is most people, or at least many people, are going to struggle with that. And I think, particularly in this second book, this new book, the testimonials, I just love reading them. You know, you mentioned eating disorders. There is a testimonial, right? There's a testimonial. I can't remember which book it's in about bulimia and how a young lady, I think with bulimia said

your method has really helped them. And before you answer, I have quite a lot of thoughts on what you just said. And, you know, I've been trying to communicate health messaging to the public since maybe 2014 now through TV shows, books, podcasts, whatever it might be, right? And you simply cannot anymore communicate health information and not get pushback. And the reality is not all information is for everyone, right? I try, I think like you do, to be as compassionate as possible when putting out that information. like you do to be as compassionate as possible when putting out that information. And now I can be relatively detached when, if and when pushback comes and go, yeah, I can actually learn from that. That's a good point. Or I actually disagree with that. Or I can see that that person's being

really, really triggered by something. This ain't about me. This is about them, right? So I think taking a compassionate approach to that has been really helpful. I understand what you're saying about the type 1 diabetics, and I can understand why certain members of that community may feel like that. But technology and progress is going to come in every form. CGMs are here. They're here to stay. They're only going to get more and more popular. I do believe they can be a valuable tool

for some people with the right education, with the right context. I think there can be an incredible tool for the right person. Yeah. And to be fair, there's a whole other part of the community of people with type 1 diabetes who are super happy that I'm wearing one because it destigmatizes it for them. So there's always, you know, pros and cons. And on the eating disorders front, I really got very interested in this topic. And I spoke to many experts on the subject because I got a few comments being like, oh, these rules are just an eating disorder waiting to happen. And I thought that was really unfortunate that, you know, we need to nuance something that's a diet and that's really unhealthy, unscientific, completely random

and could cause some difficult behaviors, but also with advice that people need because people are dying. And that was a tough one for me to get through. I was like, okay, where do I land? What's true about not wanting to encourage disordered eating? And what's true about wanting to give these very important pieces of information that are life-changing and potentially life-saving. So, but it's an ongoing journey, you know, the pushback, I try to learn from every thing that happens. Yeah, you get this. I've definitely had it when we've done podcasts on fasting before. And I've thought long and hard about this. Is this irresponsible? Should I be doing it? And where

I've landed is, you know, I try and caveat it. I try and make sure in the introductions to each podcast, we say this may not be suitable for people who are recovering from or suffering with eating disorders. Having said that, some people with eating disorders find fasting incredibly useful. I know that because people are fed back. And also let's just look at what's going on around us. You know, in America, what is it? 88 or 90% of people may be metabolically unhealthy, right? Stabilizing their blood sugar is going to save their life. Yeah, exactly. Right? So, and I think we all, and I know it's hard because I know sometimes it's parents of

kids who are struggling. They've got like a 12 year old or a 14 year old who's really struggling with an eating disorder. And then they get often, and I can totally understand it, feel very defensive and upset when they see certain posts. But I'm not sure I have the solution to it apart from trying to approach these things with compassion. I don't know because not everything is for everyone. Absolutely. And then, you know, you also have to remember that of the people reading your books, listening to your podcast, reading your content, like 99% of people are so thrilled and happy. And then there are a few people who are triggered or upset that will comment and that's what we see, right? But it's really not

representative of the reality. That being said, I think, you know, I'm in the same boat as you, which is I try to learn and be as respectful and mindful as possible. And then once you feel like you've done the right thing, if somebody still doesn't like it, well, you know, so be it. Jesse, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. It really has. I mean, we've not even scratched the surface over what's in your two books. And I can see why so many people follow you online. So many people have been moved by your work. It's making a real material difference in their lives and therefore the lives of the people around them, right? That's something I'm so passionate about. You can change one person. You don't just change them. They've got more energy.

They're less moody. They're less cranky. That impacts how they parent. That impacts how they are with their partners, how they are with their work colleagues, right? So I think the work you're doing is so, so important. This podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. I think you would probably add when we have stable blood sugars levels, we get more out of our lives. Absolutely. For people who are feeling inspired by what they've heard and want to start making changes right now, do you have any final words of wisdom for them? I would say get the Glucose Goddess Method, my new book. It's going to be your partner in helping turn these hacks into lifelong habits. And if you can't afford it or you don't want to buy a book, just go on my Instagram and start looking at the graphs that I share. Savory

breakfast, veggies first, vinegar, movement, close on carbs, and there's many more things you'll discover, but those can become your best friends in your daily life. And for someone who's saying, Jessie, I hear you, I hear what you're saying, but I cannot see how my mood or my mental health has got anything to do with my blood sugar levels, what would you say to them? I would say, look at the studies. It really, really does. Or just try the 10 minute calf pushup at your desk after your next meal and see if your mood doesn't improve. See it for yourself. I would say test it and your body will speak for itself. Yeah. Jessie, thank you for coming to the studio. Thank you, Rangan, for having me.

You are changing lives. Keep up the good work. Thank you. Lots of gratitude. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, do think about one thing that you can take away and start applying into your own life.

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