Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - How To Find Happiness, Tune Into Your Intuition & Make Friends With Your Thoughts with Light Watkins #398

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

Could you live out of a single backpack? Not for a few weeks or months, but as a lifestyle choice? Well, five years ago, today’s guest gave up his luxury apartment, its contents, his cars and all his possessions – apart from those that fit into his trusty backpack.   Light Watkins has been practising daily meditation for 20 years and teaching it for 15. He’s a mindfulness expert and the bestselling author of four books. His latest book, Travel Light: Spiritual Minimalism to Live a More Fulfilled Life might sound like a guide to decluttering – and in some ways it is. But Light is not necessarily talking about us getting rid of our possessions, he’s trying to help us clear away our inner clutter - the mental baggage that weighs us down, so that we can better see the path to fulfilment and happiness.   Light believes that we should be following our hearts more, and our heads less. This involves knowing our values, tuning in to our curiosity and then taking small leaps of faith towards our purpose. He explains why a daily practice of stillness and contemplation is so important and shares practical advice that will help you make friends with your thoughts and turn your mind into your ally. He also explains how meditation works to dissolve stress and feed our intuition.   It really is a fantastic conversation that takes us to some really deep and meaningful places - we discuss whether time can ever really be wasted. Light talks us through his own minimalist fitness regime – and you’ll find out why he thinks meditation is like a Rubik’s Cube, as well as why he sometimes takes his showers fully clothed!   Above all, Light’s minimalist philosophy is about breaking free from the ‘achievements bring happiness’ approach to life and discovering that happiness really does come from within.  I hope you enjoy listening. Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://calm.com/livemore https://hunterandgatherfoods.com/livemore https://carolbike.com/livemore https://drinkag1.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/398 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

In order to find your purpose, a couple of things need to happen. You need to be clear about your values and you want to follow through on your curiosity. So yeah, go work your job, pay your bills. And on top of that, if there's anything that makes you curious, go and explore that. It doesn't have to be some massive leap of faith. It can just be like a little hop of faith. You know, I get it. The leap of faith is scary. But just one little action, one little thing. And if you can do that, it's going to lead you

away from your comfort zone and into your growth zone because that's where your path actually is. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. Do you think that you could live out of a single backpack? Not for a few weeks or months, but as a semi-permanent lifestyle choice? Well, five years ago, today's guest gave up his luxury apartment, its contents, his cars, and all his possessions, apart from those that fit into his trusty backpack. Light Watkins has been practicing daily meditation for 20 years and teaching it for 15.

He's a mindfulness expert and the best-selling author of four books. His mission in life is to help you discover yours. Now, if you are a long-time listener, you may recall that Light has been a guest on my podcast on two previous occasions, episode 23, which was a masterclass on meditation, and more recently on episode 195. The occasion for his third appearance is the publication of his latest book, Travel Light, Spiritual Minimalism to Live a More Fulfilled Life. Now from the title, you may think that this book is a guide to decluttering, and in some ways it is. But Light is not necessarily talking about us getting rid of our material possessions.

not necessarily talking about us getting rid of our material possessions. He's trying to help us clear away our inner clutter, the mental baggage that weighs us down so that we can better see the path to fulfillment and happiness. Now, Light believes that we should all be following our hearts more and our heads less. And this involves knowing our values, tuning into our curiosity, and then taking small leaps of faith towards our purpose. He also explains why a daily practice of stillness and contemplation is so important and shares practical advice that will help you make friends with your thoughts and turn your mind into your ally. He also explains how meditation works to dissolve stress and feed our intuition. It really is a fantastic conversation that takes us to some really deep and meaningful places. We discuss whether time can ever really be wasted,

Light talks us through his own minimalist fitness regime and you'll find out why he thinks meditation is like a Rubik's Cube as well as why he sometimes takes his showers fully clothed. Above all, Light's minimalist philosophy is about breaking free from the achievements bring happiness approach to life and discovering that happiness really does come from within. You're a meditation teacher. Yes. You have lived out of a backpack for around five years now, and you've written this beautifully concise new book. And I think it would be useful to start off at the top,

you know, outlining the central philosophy. Sure. So the book is called Travel Light, pun intended. And the subtitle is Spiritual Minimalism to Live a More Fulfilled Life. So the central message is, if you want to live a more fulfilled life, message is if you want to live a more fulfilled life, you have to make some space internally, right? A lot of people, they hear that word minimalism and they think of it as, you know, the process of getting rid of things externally, you know, clear out the living room, clean up the closets, only keep things that bring you joy. And there's nothing wrong with that, except it doesn't quite lead to that fulfillment that we're ultimately all wanting, you know, mostly through achievements. We're on the achievement to happiness approach to life. And so, you know, you and I were

talking about this before we started recording, how you've achieved certain metrics in your life, you know, best-selling author and, you know, doing well in this area and that area, but it doesn't, after you have your basic needs met and maybe a little bit more, it doesn't really register as a spike in happiness anymore, right? And I think a lot of people are experiencing that where they are getting the promotion, they're exiting their company, they're ending up with a really beautiful partner and it doesn't spike any sort of happiness inside. They kind of feel the same that they felt before. And this is an invitation to come back to the source of where that happiness truly resides, which is inside. It's internal. It's internal. It's like what Buddha said,

there's no way to happiness, happiness is the way. So cultivate happiness first, and then live a more fulfilled life from there. You'll get your internal cues of what to do and how to be in order to express the fulfillment from you, because that's where it's coming from, as opposed to looking for it externally. Yeah, I really, really love it.

And as I was reading the book, it strikes me that one of the central messages is about living an intentional life, being aware of the choices you're making and why you're making them. And if I look out across society, what I see is a lot of people who are being overly stimulated. They're constantly looking outside of themselves for things, possessions, promotions, validation, whatever it might be to make them feel better. But it's a trap because it doesn't

ultimately lead to you feeling better. And often you have to go there and get those things to realize, oh, wait a minute, it doesn't make me feel better. I also see a lot of what I would call low-grade addictions. I'm not talking about the kind of alcoholism that may lead you to going to AA or the gambling problem that leads you to Gambler's Anonymous. Of course, those things need addressing, but I'm talking about the low-grade addictions that people have to caffeine, to sugar, to social media, to online pornography, to retail therapy and shopping, whatever it might be. And then I think about you and the fact that you have lived out of a backpack for five years.

It's almost the opposite, right? Instead of being addicted to things and possessions, living out of a backpack is kind of the opposite, right? and possessions, living out of a backpack is kind of the opposite, right? Somewhat. Yes. Here's the thing. I'm not immune to any of those things you talked about, the sugar and the social media. And we talked about that as well earlier, how when you go off of social media those first few days, there's some withdrawal symptoms and you don't realize how addicted you are until you stop, you intentionally stop using them. So what I've been intentional about doing in my life is I'll go off sugar for 30 days and just to show myself that I can exist by minimizing that. And then I'll go off caffeine for 30 days. And then I'll go off social media on occasion. And so when we can mitigate the supposed addictions

in our life as a lifestyle, like this is just a part of my lifestyle. It doesn't have to be some extreme thing. I don't have to hit rock bottom. It's just something that I intentionally abstain from or minimize on a fairly occasional basis. Then I can kind of see, okay, this relationship could potentially get a little bit dangerous for me on occasion. And so just by being more intentional about that and about what I can do about that, that's what this sort of lifestyle is about. Like the backpack thing, I'm basing myself right now in Mexico City. I've been there for two and a half years.

If you walked into the place where I'm normally staying, which is an Airbnb, you would have no idea that somebody who just lives out of a backpack operates from there. It just looks like a regular old apartment, you know, it's got a bunch of stuff in it. But the question is, do I need to be in that place in order to find some sense of centering,

grounding, fulfillment? And I've shown myself that no, that's not the source of the thing that I've been looking for, nor is the sugar, nor is the caffeine, nor is the social media, but I can still indulge just like anyone else can. This is really interesting for me.

As I was thinking about you turning up in the studio and I was thinking about, what do I want to talk to light about this time? For me, I was thinking about you and I saw you when you came into my house with your backpack on. And I was thinking, wow, all his possessions are in that backpack. So you have had to be very, very intentional about the choices you have made. What's going to get allowed in? What's not? You told me in London, you've just bought a new coat, I think. And I said to you, when you bought that coat, did something have to leave? And you said, yeah, if I'm going to bring that in, something's got to go. So to me, as I reflect on that, I think light for the last five years has had to be very, very intentional about his life. And so it's interesting for me to hear that despite being so intentional, you can also fall prey to a lot of the addictions

that many of us fall prey to. And that's really interesting for me. Yeah, and I think part of it is just being honest with yourself about the fact this is an addiction. This is something that could, this is a slippery slope, you know? Could get really bad very quickly. And just that, and's a slippery slope, you know, could get really bad very quickly. And just that, and I talk about that, discipline is not about willpower.

It's about honesty. That's what it's about. Can you be honest with yourself enough to put stopgaps in place? And when you put those stopgaps in place, you may find yourself being able to navigate those addictions a little bit more successfully or a little bit less difficult, you know, with a little bit less difficulty than if you are telling yourself with good intention, yeah, I can stop anytime I want. Yeah. You know, it's not a problem. Yeah. I'm going to wake up at six o'clock in the morning and work on my passion project and still,

you know, watch Netflix and sleep in and go partying on the weekend. No, that's not, you have no track record of being able to do the things that you've said you wanted to do. So you have to get honest with yourself about that. And maybe you have to hold yourself accountable in some way. Maybe you have to spend a bunch of money on a training or a coach so that you give yourself what I call in the book, the freedom of choicelessness. And that's what that backpack represents for me. It's choicelessness. If I want to buy something new, I have to get rid of something old. There's no, I can't carry it all around with me. So that gives me a little editor in my mind because I don't have as much discipline as people would think with taking on new things.

But when you have to carry everything around with you, then you have to make those choices. So I've painted myself into this corner to make the choice. I mean, there's so much there. I love that idea that discipline is not about willpower, it's about honesty. And I think everything in this new book, and frankly frankly if I think about your previous books as well it's about intentionality and what do you get if you're being intentional you get honesty

right you have to be honest with yourself actually that coffee that one needs to get going every morning is an addiction for many people maybe not for for everyone, but for many of us. And we can tell ourselves stories that, oh, well, I don't operate well without coffee. And actually, if you look at the literature, I think it's pretty clear that actually, and I'm using caffeine as an example here, because I'm currently in the process of resetting my own relationship with caffeine. So it's front of mind for me at the moment. resetting my own relationship with caffeine. So it's front of mind for me at the moment. But if you need this external substance every single day in order to just operate at your normal, I think we need to ask ourselves some questions. Like, you know, is this a choice

or is it, you know, a bit of an addiction? And it's okay. I'm not saying people should not drink caffeine. I enjoy caffeine. I've had them for many years, but I'm currently resetting my relationship with it because I do feel I was becoming a little bit too dependent on it. And one of my favorite studies was from Bristol. I think it was 2010, University of Bristol, where they compared caffeine drinkers and people who don't drink caffeine. And essentially what they found was that, is caffeine really a performance enhancer? It can in certain situations, but generally for most of us, if we regularly consume caffeine, all it does is bring us up to the level that non-caffeine drinkers are at every single day. That's all it does. It's a dependency. And I'm so fascinated by your backpack, because to me,

I would have thought that having to really be that intentional about what you're having in your life would make you intentional about every other aspects of your life. In fact, what would you say the crossover skill is that you've learned from living out of a backpack? How do the skills you've learned through that process help you navigate other parts of your life? Well, I think the backpack really is an extension of something else, right? Like people say, like, when did you become a minimalist or spiritual minimalist or whatever you want to call it? And what they're expecting me to answer is, oh, on May 31st, which was the day I gave up my two bedroom flat in Venice, California, which was beautiful, 10 minutes walking from the beach,

two cars, Vespa, all the art and furniture and all the things. Living the dream. Yeah. I had a really nice setup. And I gave all of that up. I got rid of everything. And I moved into, initially I moved into a carry-on bag, a 22-inch carry-on bag, which I found out was the biggest one because I did all this research. Like, what's the biggest bag that an average airline will let me put in the overhead compartment? Because I didn't want to have to check luggage. You have to wait for an hour to get your luggage at the end of a flight and they may lose it. And I didn't want to lose everything. So I wanted to keep everything with me and have that flexibility. And also you didn't have to stand in lines

to check into the airline to drop your bag off. So just to free up that time. But I wouldn't say that's when I became a minimalist. I would say I became a minimalist back in 2003, which was the year that I began taking my meditation practice seriously, because it was through the meditation practice. I didn't realize this was happening, but an unintentional side effect of daily meditation is it creates spaciousness inside, which means

you're getting rid of the internal clutter and the emotional baggage that may keep you feeling stuck in a part of your life that may no longer be relevant for your personal growth and evolution. And that's gonna be different for everybody. So my lifestyle now, the living out of a backpack, et cetera, that's my unique expression of what happens when you have more space internally. What do you want to explore?

But someone else's may be, you know, starting a podcast. It may be writing a book. It may be starting a nonprofit. It may be tending to a garden or, you know, that thing that's in the back of your mind that you've always sort of wanted to do, but you keep talking yourself out of it because I don't have enough time.

I know there's too many bills. I need to take care of such and such. And we keep the excuses kind of streamlining in this ticker tape in the back of our mind. And it's really difficult to break free of that. And we don't realize that the reason why it's so difficult is because there's some old stories, there's some old belief patterns

that are deeply entrenched in our consciousness. And it's kind of like, again, living in a, being a hoarder, having a bunch of stuff in our place that doesn't allow us to navigate very easily and really see what's there and appreciate the small things. So once we can clear some of that stuff out and we create that space internally,

then your version of living from a backpack for five plus years could be something completely different. And so I wanna just present the backpack thing, not as, oh, this is what everybody should do, just for the record. That's not what I'm advocating here is to physically minimize.

But that was really, that idea to do that was really interesting to me. So interesting that I decided to get rid of the things that I felt were, you know, socially more acceptable for the life stage. I was in my mid-40s when I did this. I was single, no kids. I want to have a family. I want to be in a long-term partnership, or if not marriage, right?

But when you're in your 40s and you don't have anything, that's not, socially speaking, that's not the best position to be in. But that was what I was feeling called to do. Was there a pain point? Because sometimes we experience, don't we, a pain point in life that leaves us with no option but to make a change. You know, if I think back to you in Venice Beach, right?

Two cars, you've got the Vespa scooter, you've got a nice place, right? The Art Deco, whatever, right? To many people, that sounds like you are that success, right? You're living the dream. So was there a pain point? Was there something there that you thought this can't be all there is? Like, for example, could you go back to that life now with the lessons you've learned and could you exist in that life in a very different way now? You know, that's a good question. And look, I've been meditating for 20 years. I've been teaching meditation for 15 years. And what I've learned from that experience is that when you get that internal nudge from your heart and you act upon it within a reasonable amount of time, then you can actually avoid the pain. If you ignore it, then the internal tension will build

until it becomes painful and potentially even physically manifests into pain, some sort of internal or physical pain. And so over the years, I've experimented, I've practiced, I've tried to see what happens when you don't follow it versus when you do follow it. And what I've now come to realize is that there are essentially two paths that we can take. There's the path of ignoring those eternal urges and continuing to do what seems to be more socially acceptable because following your heart is not socially acceptable. That's always going to take you away from your comfort zone and into your growth zone, which is going to cause you to challenge some sort of belief or convention or something that people just accept as normal because that's what your path actually is.

People just accept as normal because that's what your path actually is. And if you can do that, it's going to lead to a greater sense of adventure in your life, which means you're not going to know how it's going to turn out, but it is going to be exciting and it's going to have a sense of anticipation attached to it. If you ignore it, you put yourself on a more dramatic trajectory where you're still experiencing change and a lot of tension and you end up finding yourself in situations because when you ignore your heart, you're betraying yourself.

And when you betray yourself, just like when someone betrays you in life, you're gonna end up in very dramatic situations that you then have to kind of put the pieces back together again. But if you make a habit of ignoring yourself, then you stay in this sort of constant state of betrayal. And I talk about that in the book. You do. And in fact, one of the things I really love about the book is at the start of each chapter, each of these guiding

principles on how to be a spiritual minimalist, there's a quote. And the one I wrote down this morning really speaks to what you just said. Not following your heart is a form of self-betrayal, which means whatever comes after that is on you. Now that's pretty brutally honest, right? But it completely resonated with me because I think I certainly know many times in my life, I didn't follow my heart. I went with my head, what I thought was the right thing to do. And you regret it, you resent it and it comes out in some way, right? And as you were talking about people not following with their heart voice and try to ignore it and that it's a type of betrayal.

One of the ways I see this showing up in people, and I've seen this in so many patients over the years, is when they're in a job that they can't stand. Or certainly from the circles I grew up in, they're ending up in a job where it's what their parents wanted and it's what society wanted. It's a job that has some security, has some prestige. It's the right job for others. But the problem is that you start doing that, you can end up in your 40s suddenly wondering, where's your life gone? Why are you stuck doing this job that everyone else thinks

is great, yet you're having to numb your pain with two bottles of wine every Friday and Saturday night? That's a downstream consequence of the fact that you weren't following your heart voice. Now, I also want to acknowledge, and I'd love you to speak to this. Some people will say, yeah, but you know, I've got bills to pay, right? I need to earn money to feed my family, to pay the mortgage. And times are getting pretty tough for a lot of people. So how does following your heart voice fit for people who are saying, sounds wonderful, but I've got real life to deal with. I want to just go back and put a bow on the last thing you were asking about, which is the pain point. So there's a couple of different qualities of pain. There's the pain

of resisting what your heart is nudging you to do, right? Which could result in me hating my job, crying, going to work and coming home from work and feeling like I have to go and cope by, you know, drinking a bunch of alcohol or whatever kind of escapism that I'm indulging in. And then there's the pain of going to do the thing that my heart is nudging me to do, but then having to deal with other people's opinions, harsh opinions, people saying things like you're not being responsible, people saying things like you're not being a good father or a good, you know, whatever, provider, because you're now spending time doing something that doesn't seem to be related to producing income or to providing or to nurturing or to taking care of someone or something else. And that can be a very difficult thing to come up against if you're a thoughtful, mindful, caring person. But the opportunity there is, again, to trust.

You have to trust in this thing that you're feeling inside. And really the only way to do that, to develop that level of trust is to have some sort of consistent exposure to that heart voice that I talk about in the book. Because the heart voice is very maternal itself. It's very nurturing for you individually. And it's kind of like on the airplane

when they say, put the oxygen mask on yourself. And we've all heard that thousands and thousands of times. And the reason why they have to keep repeating it is because our human tendency is to not do that. So we have to hear it over and over and over and over until it starts to become more and more subconscious and we can start to prioritize ourselves with the intent to help other people.

It's not about just doing this thing because I'm just in this mood. It's like, I'm doing everything that I do because I want to be of service to other people. And that's really where you start to find your, quote, purpose is when you're engaged in service-based actions. Now, the mistake that we make is that, oh, this has to have something to do with my job. And the reality is that you can still work as a secretary, a virtual assistant, a doctor, an engineer, a toll booth operator. You can have these kinds of jobs and you can still be living in your purpose. And I use a story in this book about Rosa Parks, who was seen as the mother of the American civil rights movement. She was the black woman who stayed on her bus seat when the white bus driver tried to get her off in 1955.

And that became the catalyst for initiating the modern civil rights movement with Martin Luther King and all of those historical figures that we now look back and go, oh, my God, these people were so brave. Well, Rosa Parks was a seamstress. She wasn't an entertainer. She wasn't a poet. She wasn't some artist. She was a seamstress. She was coming home from work. And the demand was placed on her to get up out of her bus seat

so a white man can sit down in it. And she just refused. She was tired of giving in. And people then think, okay, well, she was an old lady. That's why she was still seated. Rosa Parks was 42 years old. She was eight years younger than me right now. And I was just doing deadlifts in the gym the other day.

There's nothing tired about being in your 40s if you've been taking care of yourself. But she was just tired of giving in. And that's because she had a set of values that she was committed to. And so in the book, I talk about in order to find your purpose, a couple of things need to happen. You need to be clear about your values and you want to follow through on your curiosity, the things that just make you naturally curious. So yeah, go work your job, pay your bills, be responsible. And on top of that, if there's anything that makes you curious, go and explore that. It doesn't have to be some

massive leap of faith. It can just be like a little hop of faith. You know, I get it. The leap of faith is scary, but just one little action, one little thing, just give a compliment. If you're in line with someone and you genuinely like the way they dressed, maybe you compliment them about that. Or if you are on social media and you keep seeing the same, you keep focusing on the same types of posts

about style or something like that or decor. Maybe you start intentionally posting about that and writing a little caption about decor and your thoughts about it based on your own unique perspective. And you just never know where these things are going to lead to, right? So when we look back, after we've had a little bit of recognized success in any area of life, it all started with me following my curiosity on something. And when you look back after having some very dramatic thing happen in your life, some negative thing happen in your life, there was a moment where you ignored your internal guidance. You ignored your heart, right? If you're being honest with yourself.

Something told you, don't get into this business deal with this person. Something told you, don't go into this room or if you're in this room with these weird negative people, leave. But you stayed in it because you were afraid of what people were going to think about you. And then the snowball effect occurred. So we're getting all the cues internally.

We just have to get better at listening to them. For sure. And you make it very clear in the book that a daily practice of stillness is essential. Yeah, foundational. Yeah, and I would completely agree with that based on my own experience personally and with many patients. Like I just don't think you can truly be healthy or happy

unless you are able to spend time by yourself. unless you are able to spend time by yourself. Now, many people, Light, struggle with this. They can't sit with themselves. They can't meditate. And it's really interesting. You may, I maybe never shared this with you, but I have had so many messages since our very first episode, maybe four years ago, when you came on to talk about Bliss More, your, I think, was that your first or second book? Second book. Your second book. So many people credit that episode as inspiring them to actually meditate. I think there was something about the way you delivered your message, the way you made it quite easy for people. I think it was really quite special. So broad, big picture here.

Why do so many people struggle with stillness? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, something that is really important, especially at this time of year. It also contains prebiotics and digestive enzymes

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packs to 10. And these packs are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. They don't struggle with stillness. They struggle with the thing that's stopping them from being able to be still, which is the stress. When you let the stress just run wild in your body because you don't have a reliable outlet for it, then it's going to make practices like stillness seem a hundred times more difficult. And that's something that you've written about before. And I think it's an underappreciated aspect of living life is that when the stress

doesn't have any way to get out of the body, it's going to eventually manifest itself mentally, emotionally, and physically. And, you know, people, we're very intentional about building wealth in our society, you know, increasing capital, making money. There's certain steps, like if someone were to say, you know, it's not possible to be wealthy, you would be laughed out of any room where people who are serious were in. But if someone says it's not possible to be happy, there'd be a debate would ensue. Yeah, well, you know, maybe it's not, or maybe it is, or who knows, or there's not a lot of clarity around this. But I think what we underappreciate is that, yes, you can be happier in the sense that you can be more fulfilled if you're intentional about doing the things that will decrease

the debt. And the debt of happiness is stress. Look at happiness as income and look at stress as debt. If you have more debt than you have income, then you're going to feel bankrupt in terms of your own happiness and inner fulfillment. But if you're intentional about increasing the income from the inside out, then you can create a state where you're wealthy with fulfillment, you're wealthy in happiness. You're able to pass that wealth down generationally to your kids because they're emulating the behaviors and the lifestyle patterns that you are displaying to them. So what meditation does, and the only thing it really

does is it puts you in a position to reduce the stress. Once the stress reduces, then the fulfillment increases. You're not having to go outside and find the fulfillment on a tree somewhere or for someone to give it to you. It's already inside of you. Once you get rid of the stress though, then that's where you'll feel more fulfilled as a byproduct. So is one way you could interpret that saying, if you can reduce the stress in your life, you're going to find it easier to meditate? Because I think many of us think meditation is a way of reducing stress. Yes.

So how do those two things fit alongside each other? Yeah, it's interesting because if you've not been meditating for decades and you start meditating, then it can feel quite intense initially when the stress starts getting dissolved because that was what causes what they call the monkey mind. That monkey mind-

You don't like that term, do you? No. Because people say it all the time and you do write about it. So why don't you like term, do you? No. Because people say it all the time and you do write about it. So why don't you like the term monkey mind? It's a misrepresentation of what's actually happening. People associate the monkey mind feeling as a reason why they can't meditate.

And it's kind of like, it's kind of like the analogy that I like to use is with swimming, you know? Like if you can't swim, it's not because you have monkey arms and monkey legs. It's because you haven't learned the mechanics of swimming. Once you learn the mechanics of swimming, then the water will support you. If you fight the water, it will drown you. And so what people do when they first start meditating, because there's not a lot of good meditation instruction out here. It's a lot of the blind leading the blind, to be frank. But a lot of people are fighting their mind. They're

fighting the natural tendencies of the mind. And I talk about the minimalist approach to meditation, which is doing less, doing least, and ultimately doing nothing, just practicing pure being, sitting comfortably, having a passive attitude. And that will position your mind to become more settled. And as your mind becomes settled and your body becomes rested as a byproduct of your settled mind, all the body needs is to achieve some sense of rest and then it automatically begins to rehabilitate itself, which means it begins to dissolve stress. And it's the stress dissolution that will cause your mind to then have a spike in activity. And that spike in activity is what people then fight against,

thinking, oh, this shouldn't be happening. But actually, that is a byproduct of stress release. So the way you know the stress is actually being released is that through consistent practice, where you're going deep in some meditations and then having some spiked activity in other meditations, you're finding yourself becoming increasingly more and more adaptable to change outside of meditation. You're sleeping better at night. You're getting sick less often. You're able to be more compassionate, generous, and empathetic

out in your real world, out in the field, as I call it. And so that becomes an ongoing process that can last for years. The stress continues to go down. The adaptation energy continues to go up. And you find that you're able to drop into more and more of a flow state just in everyday, regular life. And that doesn't mean that everything is going your way. It means that whatever life is presenting to you, you can navigate it more successfully without having an overreaction. Yeah. Do you think meditation is for everyone?

In the sense that rest can be beneficial for everyone, yes. I think that meditation is for everyone. I don't think everyone necessarily needs to meditate. Like for instance, with me, I didn't start meditating until I was 30. I didn't start taking it seriously until I was 30. Now, does that mean I was miserable up until I was 30? I had a pretty good life.

Fortunately, I've never struggled with mental health and I've always considered myself to be a relatively happy person and never really a stressed out person, right? So I would theorize that if I had never introduced or been introduced to meditation, that I probably still would have had a pretty good life. I was sleeping well and the whole thing. But what I never anticipated and what actually still surprises me to this day as a result of my daily meditation practice is the strength to which my intuition has grown

over these years and how just the clarity around the internal guidance. And that's something I never experienced before I started meditating. There would be some whispers, you know, and some maybe little pokes here and there. And that's why they call it the still small voice, you know, that in spiritual circles, the still small voice of inner guidance. And you have to get quiet in order to hear it. And, you know, if there's any other movement or noise or concerns, maybe it'll go away.

But once you've been cultivating that through a daily practice, it starts to become less of a still small voice. The volume gets turned up and it becomes a loud, annoying voice. And that's where you ultimately want it to be because then it becomes harder and harder to ignore. And I find that to be very useful

when I can't ignore it anymore. because then it becomes harder and harder to ignore. And I find that to be very useful when I can't ignore it anymore. Yeah, it's interesting when I started to engage in a daily stillness practice of which meditation forms a part of it, I've had a, I would say a love hate relationship with meditation over the years. I think like many people I struggled initially,

I knew with my rational brain, the benefits, I'd read the science. I'd say, oh, it does this. It helps with your perception of pain, reduces anxiety, improves sleep, helps you feel more calm. Right? So you tell yourself that, and then you want to meditate because you know of all the benefits. Yet I think maybe 10, 15 years ago, whenever it was, I fell into the trap of thinking that, oh, I should be able to just suddenly sit there, do nothing and feel bliss and feel this calm, quiet mind. And I really feel I overused willpower. I'd go through streaks of a few weeks of doing it, then I'd go through weeks and streaks of not doing it. And something has shifted in the past few years where by now, I don't do it every

day. I have a stillness practice every day. I don't always meditate. But when I do, when I did this morning, it's something that I luxuriate in. I really enjoy it. It's not a struggle anymore. It's just, frankly, a wonderful experience. Some mornings I wake up and I really want to meditate. I don't want to read. I don't want to pick up my phone. I want the feeling of calm to continue. I want to take advantage of that early morning time and sit with myself and my thoughts and my mind. And it's interesting. Can we say that meditation helps to reduce stress? Well, I think we can, but at the same time, I feel that making other changes in my life, getting better at saying no to things, reducing workload

where I could, all kinds of different things help me to meditate better. So I kind of feel it's not either or. It's funny you say that the benefits of meditation are often seen outside the meditation. What's happening in the other 23 hours of the day, right? How are you showing up? How calm are you? How present are you with your wife and with your children at work? That's really interesting. But I think for me, at least it works both ways whereby if in our non-meditation time, we are making better decisions, it also helps us meditate better. making better decisions, it also helps us meditate better. Yes. It's a reinforcement loop. And I think you're right. I think the telltale sign of progress in a practice like a meditation or stillness practice is in the choices you're

making. Because there's basically two kinds of choices that people are making. Either you're doing things to be happy or you're doing things because you're happy, right? You're taking this job because you think that whatever it's going to give to you is going to make you happier. And usually that's not the case. Or you have cultivated some sense of peace or happiness or fulfillment inside. And then you take this job because this would be a great outlet for the fulfillment that I have or the creativity that I have or the peace that I have. And so that determines why you do most of the things that

you do. I'm going to date this person because I'm happy, not to get happy. If I'm looking for someone to make me happy, that's a completely different person. But if I'm looking for someone because I'm happy and I want to share that happiness with this person, then my priorities have changed. And so that becomes a cumulative effect, which then becomes self-reinforcing, right? If I'm constantly choosing things to make me happy, then I'm going to not have a whole lot of time to do things like meditate and work out and eat well because I'm putting myself on the dramatic trajectory now. So I'm having to put out fires all the time and spending all this time arguing with this person

because they're not making me happy like I thought they should have been making me happy. And so it's true, you don't have time for things like that. And it seems irrelevant because there's so much else happening that you have to deal with versus doing things because you're happy. It actually refunds you back time

because you have a lot less neediness in your life. Yes, things are still not gonna go your way, but it's kind of okay because that wasn't the source of your happiness anyway. You know, what you're talking about might be put in the bucket of mental well-being by many people. But for me, it goes far beyond that. As a medical doctor, having spent years seeing patients with a whole variety

of different symptoms and physical complaints often, it really is very, very clear to me that one of the best ways you can improve your physical health is to cultivate that inner spaciousness that you're talking about. Because if you can get to know yourself better, your tendencies, your triggers, how you make decisions, if you can really sort that inner world out, and I think your book is a great kind of guidebook on how people can do that, I think physical health actually becomes relatively straightforward or easier, or as you said before, less difficult. But I think so many people like want to meditate

and they struggle. You know this, you're a meditation teacher. I was at a festival last week, a UK festival called Carfest. And there was a few panels there and people were festival called Carfest. And there was a few panels there and people were asking questions. And again, there was a, I'd say a middle-aged lady. She was a mother. She said, I can make all kinds of other changes. I really want to meditate, but I just don't seem to be able to do it. I can't make it stick. So you've covered a little

bit there, but for that person who's at home right now, who's watching this or listening and goes, yeah, you know what? Like I really want to meditate. I can never make it stick. And I know you've got a little guide in the new book. Can you talk them through what you would say? How can they go about that? Yeah, I would just, so know, so in the book,

the basic instructions are, and this is pretty huge for I think most people is you don't have to look like you're meditating, you know, that's one of the reasons why it can be difficult is because you're sitting on a cushion or you're crossing your legs, or you're trying to have your back as straight as possible. And that's not actually helpful when it comes to having a more

relaxed experience in the practice. And it's not necessary. Dr. Herbert Benson proved that back in the 60s or 70s, that you can still elicit the relaxation response while sitting comfortably. And in fact, he said, you need to sit comfortably if you want to get the full effect of the relaxation response, which is that deep and profound, de-excited physical state that one can experience from a daily meditation practice. So sitting on your couch, sitting against your headboard on your bed, sitting in your favorite reading chair, like you can meditate in those positions and you can just look like you're sitting there relaxing. You can look like you're watching television and that could be your meditation position. So right off the bat, that will increase the, the, uh, delightfulness of the practice by, you know, 60%. And then you only have to deal with your mind. And that's, again, that's one of the other big obstacles is people see their mind as a erratic monkey swinging around. But when you

understand that the nature of the mind is to think and to look for better possibilities, the reason why it seems like the volume in your mind gets turned up when you close your eyes is because you don't realize how much of a distraction to your mind that just visual stimulation is. So your mind is still thinking at the same rate as it was before you close your eyes,

except now you just don't have anything to look at except the back of your eyelids. And it's not trying to sabotage your meditation. It's just functioning normally in the way that it always functions. And so one thing you can do to, again, make it more enjoyable is to just shift your attitude away from this is bad to this is just normal. This is just what it is. There's nothing wrong with my mind. There's nothing

trying to sabotage my meditation practice. And when you start to have the attitude that the mind is your ally in your meditation, as opposed to the enemy coming in to sabotage your meditation, that will also increase the enjoyableness of the experience by another 30%. And then from there, you can notice your breathing

or you can just adopt a passive attitude with whatever thoughts are occurring during the practice. I mean, there's a whole, you know, like we said, there's a whole thing in the book where I walk you through it, but just sit for 10 minutes or just sit for five minutes. Just start with five minutes, just sitting like that. And maybe you breathe deep 10 times. If you breathe deep 10 times, that's one minute goes by. If you breathe deep 20 times, that's two minutes. So every 10 deep breaths is another minute. Do 50 of them.

And that's your meditation. And that gives you a little bit of something to do. So you don't feel like you're just sitting there, you know, thinking about dinner. And you get that, you know, you get to intentionally tune into your breath and tune into your body. And maybe some insights come to you during that period or right after that period. And that's great. But if you keep it manageable

and as easy as possible, it's going to, and maybe a little bit less than what you think you're capable of, it's gonna leave you wanting more for the next time. And meditation is a consistency game. But the reason why I talk about it is because I think it's one of the key habits that then makes you more prone to be

grateful, to go to the gym, to eat better, to be more compassionate, to do all the other things that you ultimately already want to do. Yeah, I completely agree. You said if someone's sitting there, they might be thinking about what they're going to have for dinner tonight. Is that a problem? No, that's normal. So for that person who's taken your advice, they're doing that and they're saying, okay, I don't need to worry about my posture because I was spending all my mental energy thinking about how I'm going to keep my back straight and my head aligned. And you're saying, hey, just chill out, relax, whatever you're comfortable with. That makes complete sense to me. You used a great analogy in another interview I heard you give

where, you know, I think you said if you had to watch Netflix whilst keeping in perfect alignment and sitting with your back straight, you know, how much energy would you be spending on watching the show? It would all be spent trying to manage your body right so i think that's really really good advice but for that person who is doing that they're slumping against their sofa in their comfortable position shutting their eyes but all that's coming up is their to-do list or what they need to cook for dinner that evening what would you advise them to do in that moment? I just see it as a normal part of the experience to even celebrate it if they can. Like, this is great. I'm sitting here, I'm in my body, I'm thinking all these amazing thoughts. And, you know, it's like what Captain Jack Sparrow said in

Pirates of the Caribbean. The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem. That's the only problem you're having right now. Not what you're thinking about, but what you think about what you think about. And so the opportunity is to keep tweaking your attitude back towards nonchalance, or if you can, towards celebration of the thinking mind. And what's ironic is when you can go the other way with it,

you'll find that your mind actually becomes more settled. It's the whole adage, what you resist persists. So if you resist it in any way, it's just going to persist. It's going to get louder. It's going to become more bothersome. But if you go the other way with it and accept it, your mind will settle beyond that, whatever that thought is. Yeah. Would you say that it's common for people to initially, let's say we make it super simple for people, five minutes a day, right?

And your favorite spot in your house or apartment where you feel really comfortable, you sit there. I know in the book you say, ideally first thing in the morning. I completely agree with that. If I don't do it first thing in the morning, it never happens. So I think it's a good time to do it. And would you say that the natural trajectory for most people is initially lots of thoughts are coming up, to-do lists, dinner, shopping lists. But if you commit to that five minute daily practice and don't try and resist the thoughts,

but I guess make friends with them and just observe them, does the mind naturally then start to quiet after a few days and a few weeks? Is that what tends to happen? No. What happens is, what happens is, you know, when you go swimming, right? When you go swimming and the water is cooler than your body temperature, it's always gonna feel a little bit cold when you first get in it. Okay. But then after a while, it starts to warm up, okay?

Like that, with the mind, you're gonna have to go through those to-do list thoughts initially. But if you don't have a problem with that, then eventually the experience will start to warm up and you'll find yourself becoming more settled throughout the process. But if you're kind of apprehensive about getting all the way in and just immersing yourself in the experience, then it's going to stay colder longer. The water is going to stay colder longer. Those thoughts are going to be more prominent throughout.

So you have to be okay with the experience, with that initial sort of shock of, oh, my to-do list and dinner and dah, dah, dah, dah, and really not have a problem with it. And that's how you begin to settle your mind beyond that. But that's going to be the beginning of every single meditation you do. Did that happen to you this morning when you meditated? No. I mean, yeah, it did. It did happen. But look, 20 years in, all the meditations pretty much feel the same. But initially, when I work with people, I was just working with a group in London last week. And that's what we spend most of the time talking about is how to go beyond the to-do list thoughts and the, you know, I'm sitting there ideating or remembering things from my past. And that's a very common trajectory within the meditation itself. Yeah. A couple of

things there. It reminded me of anything uncomfortable let's say you know taking a cold shower or cold immersion which is becoming a huge wellness trend all over the world now if you resist the cold let's say you're in a warm shower and you think i'm going to finish up with 30 seconds of cold which is something i often do if you resist the cold and tense your body it makes it worse it makes it worse you feel cold the entire time but if you can just lean into it and soften everything before you know it you you don't feel the cold anymore like within seconds it's the same kind of principle isn't it you just i guess lean into it yeah although i have to say say meditating is more enjoyable than taking a cold shower.

You haven't been seduced by the cold emotion trend yet? No, no, no, no, no. But I can appreciate it. You can appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what's so funny about that? I think a lot of people, because we live in this sort of type A, like I need to feel like something intense is happening in order for me to be benefiting from it. I think a lot of people default to things like that as that's my meditation. You hear someone like a Tony Robbins, who I love, I love his work. And he says, first thing I do every morning is I jump into this cold plunge and my mind tries to stop me every time, but I'm teaching my mind that I'm the master

and it's serving and blah, blah, blah. But he says openly, I don't meditate because I can't stop my thoughts. Even someone like David Goggins doesn't meditate because his mind is, and he'll go out and run, you know, a thousand miles. Yeah. You know, and get after it. But it's so funny how meditation is like in this whole other category when it comes to that sort of type A approach as the kryptonite to a lot of these kinds of people. And to your earlier point, when you can master that meditation, you may find that you need less and less of these other more extreme things in order to feel like you're doing something because you're not trying to get to it from the outside anymore.

Yeah. It goes beyond, it's actually beyond the mental strength that people are ultimately striving for because that mental strength can also be a reflection of your spiritual strength. When you have strong spiritual values, then it's easier to do the right thing. It's easier to go above and beyond. It's easier to go above and beyond. It's easier to go the extra mile. You don't have to go out and run a thousand miles in order to condition yourself to do that, you know, in the worst case scenario situations.

Yeah. Just like Rosa Parks. I think you've found something really important. This idea that, I think it's more of a Western model than an Eastern model. This idea that we think it's more of a Western model than an Eastern model, this idea that we have to feel as though we've done something for it to count. A workout has to be intense. We've got

to be out of breath. There's plenty of evidence that low heart rate movement, movement that feels easy, that you do lots of, has incredible benefits. Like walking. Like walking, and we'll get to that. Like our short-term health, our longevity, our stress response, all kinds of things. And I feel, not that cold immersion isn't transformative for some people, but I think they all play into this idea that we need to have a significant change in our state. We have to feel something different for it to count as

us doing something. And what you're proposing, I think in this conversation and in your book, is something a lot calmer, something I think a lot more long lasting, something that doesn't need as much energy and willpower. And that's why I really resonate with the book because I kind of feel this form of minimalism is the kind of minimalism I've sort of stumbled across when trying to feel happier or consent. Do you agree with some of that? Yeah. And I think what you're referring to is the whole do less and accomplish more approach to life in general. I don't think there's anything wrong

with any of those protocols at all. And I love participating here and there and every now and again, and I've been a long-term gym goer and I walk a lot. And I think there's a time and place for all of those things. But I think the ultimate question we want to ask if we're considering, you know, going all in on any of those things at the expense of a meditation practice is how does it translate? Because at the end of the day, nobody gives a crap what your Wim Hof experience or what your cold shower experience was if you're not showing up in the relationship in a better way, a better version of you.

No one cares if you're not being more compassionate with them, if you're not being more patient with them, if you don't have better bedside manners as a doctor. And so I think that finding that connection is a lot more difficult with extreme activity and me being a better version of me in all realms of life. Whereas when you look at your meditation practice, even if you don't want to be a better person, if you meditate every day, you're going to be a better person. You're going to be more patient. You're going to be more altruistic. You're going to be more generous. You're going to be more kindhearted. You're going to be more intuitive. You're going to be more kindhearted. You're going to be more intuitive. You're going to probably find yourself in the right place at the right time more often than not. And that place may be in the gym. It may be in the Ayurvedic doctor's office. It may be because meditation is a truth serum.

Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last.

Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour. And I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits and improve our relationships. There are of course many different ways to journal and as with most

things it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to

buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. Meditation is a truth serum. It's very hard to lie to yourself if you've been under the influence of meditation for months or years on end. It's very hard to continue down a path that you know is unsustainable

without giving yourself permission to do something about it, even though it's hard to have that conversation. It's hard to confront that thing. And that's what I've also said before, is that people think meditation makes you gullible, and that's why they don't do it, especially this really type A, alpha type of people.

But meditation actually makes you bold. It's stress that makes you gullible. It's stress that makes you stay in the job because you know you're going to cope on the weekends. You're going to go let loose and you're living for that vacation. You're going to be able to stay in this toxic relationship because it looks better on paper. And meditation will say, I don't care how it looks on paper. Your heart is going to tell you, you need to make a change. It doesn't mean you have to break up with somebody, but maybe the way you relate to this person needs to be different. It needs to be more in alignment. You need to have stronger boundaries. So that's why I think meditation is a key habit over all the other stuff. that sometimes in meditation, we get these key insights about our life. In your experience,

do you think journaling alongside meditation can be helpful? Let's say straight after the practice where you've had these insights, is it useful in your view to then maybe journal the things that you've learned, the things that you've realized about your life? Sure. However it expresses itself. I've never really been a consistent journaler, but every time I have journaled, it's been very helpful. But I don't think journaling alone is going to take you as far without some sort of inner stillness practice. There are a lot of different forms of meditation. When I'm referring to meditation, I'm primarily referring to a daily seated eyes closed practice because that's the one that can put you into that deep and profound relaxation response. There's not been a lot of evidence

showing that walking meditations or other kinds of eating meditation, other kinds of externally focused meditations can elicit the relaxation response in the same way yeah do you know one of the most transformative things for me in my meditation practice as i reflect on it now just really tuning into some of the things you just said i remember a few years ago light i think like many people i i needed the conditions to be right for me to meditate. The room needed to be clean. It all had to be just right, the right lights, whatever it

might be. The kids are asleep. And this is years ago now. I can remember times when I was, you know, meditating and when my kids were younger, they'd get up and they'd come into the living room where I was meditating. And I'd like to think I didn't show it. I was trying to be magnanimous about it, but I think internally, I was a bit frustrated that my meditation was being interrupted. And it's like what you just said. It's not the problem that's the problem. It's the attitude to the problem. One day, I don't know why exactly, I thought, Ranga, why is this a problem? This is great. The kids are excited. They're coming in to join you in the morning. This is good. So literally, I changed my attitude genuinely from the inside out. And I would smile and invite them to come and sit with me and join me. And I generally wouldn't feel frustrated. And although it sounds quite a small thing, I think it was really significant because it reshaped how I viewed it. I don't need

perfect conditions. I don't need the children to be in another room being quiet. In fact, conditions. I don't need the children to be in another room being quiet. In fact, if I think I need those things, I'm setting myself up for a lot of disappointments in this practice. So I lent into it my attitude to that, what could be called a distraction, which I wouldn't call that distraction anymore. I think it's an opportunity. It's really elevated my practice. Is that something you hear often? I i mean i don't know what as a meditation teacher what would you say to that no that's great that's exactly what i'm i'm essentially teaching people is you know the way you gauge success in meditation is based primarily on your attitude it's not about how deep you go or how settled you become

it's how you feel about whatever you're experiencing. Because then the meditation, again, it has utility. It has purpose. You're using it to be a simulation for life. Because if you do that every day, 10 minutes here, 15 minutes there, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes. Eventually that attitude will start to carry over into your life outside of meditation where it really counts. Because when you think about suffering, you know, and the listener can run this thought experiment, think about the last time you suffered. I guarantee it was because of one of two things. Either something didn't happen

in the way you thought it should have happened. Either something didn't happen in the way you thought it should have happened, or it didn't happen in the time you felt it should have happened. That's it. And you had a problem with that. Inherently, was it good, bad? We could debate both sides, but it was the expectation that was the most problematic. And so when you can simulate coming back to this place of, you know what, this is okay. This is not the end of the world or adjusting my attitude back towards this is fine. This is good. This is okay. Then eventually that's going to become more of a default state when things aren't going the way you think they should be going. Now, this is not a call to not care about your life

or about the things that's happening in your life. It's a call to not be so rigidly attached to the way it's all playing out or to the timing that it's all happening in. And just trusting that, look, if I do the best that I can do and I keep trying all these other things and it's not really happening in the way that I want it to happen, then

probably things are happening as they should. And it's probably positioning me in some advantageous way that maybe I can't see right now. So let me just keep the camera rolling and let's see how the whole thing plays out as I continue to do my best. I'm not waiting for something to happen. I'm treating life, I'm treating the journey as the destination. And it's just like what they say in the Bhagavad Gita when they say, you have the right to the work itself, but not to the fruit of the work. And I think that's where we find the most joy is when we can find ourselves okay with the process, the process, the various processes, right? The

relating, the, I mean, having a child, having a child be born, that's a very joyous occasion, but most of your experience with that child is going to be the process of parenting the child and eventually the child leaving and, you know and being out in the world on their own. And there's really no moments that are going to be able to equate to the entirety of that process and the day-to-day choices that you have to make and continuing to show up. And it's really a reflection of you as the parent, like how I'm showing up is really, is what's teaching this little mini version of me.

And that's also happening in work and it's also happening in relationships and it's also happening with your health and all these little things that could either throw me off and ruin my day or week or when they don't go my way, I can say, you know what, this is okay too. And I'm just going to keep moving and, and see it for what it is, which is just a part of the process. And, and then it keeps you in that present moment awareness state,

which is where you could argue the happiness is being, is continuing to be cultivated. Yeah. You have a principle in the book, there are be cultivated. Yeah. You have a principle in the book, there are no throwaway moments, which I really, really like. I think it speaks to what you've just been talking about there a little bit. It speaks to what you said earlier about this idea that

you keep following your curiosity and you'll end up somewhere in five, 10 years, but it wasn't linear. Like you look back and all those moments played a role, even the job you didn't get played a role, right? So I want to talk about that because I really like it. It's my version of that is that I'm thinking about and writing about at the moment is that it's impossible to waste time. Because it's your attitude to the time that determines whether it's a waste or not. If you look at time or every experience as a learning opportunity, either to get curious about yourself or the other person or the world around you, well, is it truly possible to waste time?

So I'd love your perspective on that, but also what do you mean when you say there are no throwaway moments? So I do think that it is possible to misuse time. I do agree at the same time that it's impossible to waste time. I don't think you can waste time because you can learn from every experience, but you can also not optimize your time by not being present to whatever's happening around you. The word optimize is interesting to me because it's the word of the moment in wellness, right? Optimize, optimize, optimize every aspect of your life. Are we sometimes taking it too far? Like, are we trying to optimize every single aspect of our life, are we sometimes taking it too far? Like, are we trying to optimize every single aspect of our life?

When you optimize for presence, you're not walking around going, oh, I'm present now, I feel present. Optimizing for presence is you fully immersed in whatever it is that you're doing. So if you're washing dishes, you're optimizing for presence if you're fully immersed in that experience.

If you're with your family or your kids or your partner or yourself and you're fully there, then that's how you're optimizing. But the way you optimize for it is you don't wait until the moment to optimize for it. You have to cultivate that beforehand. you have to cultivate that beforehand. And that's where, again, everything ties back to that daily practice, that stillness practice, because that is your simulator for becoming more present in your life outside of that.

Because otherwise you can have all the time in the world, but you may be constantly thinking about what didn't happen before or worried about what could happen next. And as my spiritual teacher once said years and years ago, he said, the seeds of the future are always planted in the present. So if you want to know what's going to happen tomorrow, then it would serve you best to be completely present in whatever's happening right now. And then you can tune into

those cues about what's coming. And as you do that, you can make better choices. And those better choices, again, they're not conscious choices a lot of times. They're just choices that just feel like the right thing to do. But when they play out, you see, oh, wow, the right thing to do. But when they play out, you see, oh, wow, something told me to dot, dot, dot. And I did it. And it didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time. And it really didn't make a lot of sense to other people, but I ended up, you know, in this really interesting situation. I was walking through New York one night and got this internal cue to go and buy a Rubik's cube from a Barnes and Noble bookstore in Union Square. And it didn't make any sense at the time

because I was early in my meditation teaching career. I was trying to figure out how to get more people in to teach meditation. And it wasn't necessarily because I wanted to make more money, although that would have been a happy side effect of teaching more meditation. But really it's because I was just passionate about teaching meditation. And I knew the profound effect it had on me and I wanted it to have that same effect on other people.

But I got this call to get this Rubik's Cube and I went with it because that's what I made myself conditioned to do is whenever I get those internal urgings, just go with it. Try not to question it too much. And I went and got the last Rubik's Cube from that store and I came home and I started trying to figure out how to solve it. cube. I never knew how to solve one. And apparently, I thought you had to be a smart person or a genius in order to solve a Rubik's cube. But actually, it's a sequence you learn. You learn a series of turns and twists. And if you keep repeating the same series again and again, eventually the cube will solve itself. So I taught myself that sequence over the next few days. And finally, I knew how to solve a Rubik's Cube. And through the process, I realized that there was a correlation between how a Rubik's Cube solves itself and how meditation can help to bring the body back into balance. Starting with a foundation of rest, then after rest comes back online, your digestive system, your immune system, your reproduction system, and all the other long-term survival functions come back online. And like that, the cube solves itself in rows.

One row could be considered the foundational row, which is the rest. And then the other rows represent the other functions in the body. So this was a very interesting correlation to me. No one else would even really care, but it just was fascinating to me. And I thought there's got to be somebody else out there who would be interested in this correlation. So I made a video. This is back in 2010 or something. So I made a video and I decided to post it on the new website, YouTube. And I had to learn how to do all this. I had to go on iMovie. I decided to post it on the new website, YouTube. And I had to learn how to do all this.

I had to go on iMovie. I had to learn how to put like little captions and all the things, put music up there. And I had a point and shoot camera. I didn't even have like a video. There were no smartphones at the time. I didn't have a video camcorder. So anyway, I put it all together. That was a bit of work,

but I was so happy throughout the entire process because I was thinking about how many people this would eventually help. And I uploaded to YouTube and it became a viral video. People who were interested in meditation saw this thing and guess what happened? More people came to learn how to meditate as a result of it. meditate as a result of it. And that's kind of how it goes. When we talk about listening to the heart and being present to whatever internal urges or nudgings we're getting and just kind of trusting that, hey, the thing that I want in my mind or in my ego is also connected to what's happening in my heart, except my heart has a much more interesting, imaginative, and adventurous way of getting there. And it potentially is even more sustainable. And you're gonna learn some stuff along the way. You may learn some stuff emotionally.

You may also learn some stuff just informationally on how to get there and then how to sustain while you're there. And also the thing that it takes to get there and then how to sustain while you're there. And also the thing that it takes to get there is not gonna necessarily be the thing that grows whatever your purpose happens to be. So you have to continue to stay present. You can't just be present one time and expect that everything is gonna happen from that.

It has to become a lifestyle, not an isolated act. Can you still solve a Rubik's Cube today? I've forgotten the sequence, but I'm sure if I spent half a day remembering it again, I probably could do that. I haven't. So if I get one out now, which I've got. No, I don't have one here. This was back in the old days when I had an apartment. So there's no room for a Rubik's Cube in my backpack. That's a good excuse. That's a good reason. Do you think to adopt this sort of approach

that there's no throwaway moments, that you actually have to believe in something greater, that there's a powerful force guiding us, that the universe is working for us, not against us. And then if you do, what would you say to a skeptic who says, like, that's a load of rubbish, right? Things happen. Of course, there are throwaway moments.

Things happen that I don't want to happen, and I just learn from them and move on. I would say that, first of all, it can't really be both. So it's got to be either one or the other. Either everything is happening randomly or everything is happening on some sort of divine purpose. Now, I also admit there's no way to know one way or the other. No one can definitively say if everything is happening on purpose. No one can say if everything is happening randomly until maybe after you die. And then of course you're not here. So yeah, you don't know. No one knows.

So what I have decided for myself is that whatever your belief is, that's a religion. That belief that maybe it's all rubbish. People may think, oh, religion is rubbish. No, you're practicing a religion. When you believe that everything is happening randomly because you're acting then on that and you're probably worshiping other people's other people other figures who say the same things and maybe you know the person who has the biggest platform is the guru of that religion and if you believe everything is happening for you, that also is a type of religion, right? A thing that you believe, a thing that you act upon those beliefs, et cetera. And so we're all practicing some sort of religion, what could be identified as a religion,

something with shared values, shared beliefs, shared ideology, something that we stand firm in, et cetera. And I invite everybody to adopt the religion or the belief system or the ideology that empowers you the most. Exactly. Whichever one empowers you the most. Since no one can say definitively which was which and which one is real and which one is not, we all admit that.

But which one empowers you the most? If you believe that the But which one empowers you the most? If you believe that the things that are happening to you are also happening for you, are you more empowered in the choices that you're making on a day-to-day basis versus adopting the belief that it's all just random and who cares and everything is just kind of like you could get taken out at any point and nothing really matters. Does that make you genuinely feel empowered over a long enough period of time? And if it does, great, try that out.

And maybe adopting that belief will help you come back to the other belief and you'll be even more committed to that. So you really can't go wrong, but at least make a conscious choice of which one you're going to adopt. Yeah. If you follow your curiosity and see everything as an experiment, you're going to learn throughout it. And I very much share the same perspective. Can we prove that it's all divinely been written? No, but that's where I come to in my life. How do I prefer to live? Well, I prefer to live believing that it is and that everything is

happening to me for a reason because I've lived the other way and I prefer this way because you then become, as you say, empowered. You're not a victim to life anymore. You're not a victim to external events. You've got a degree of control. If something happens that you didn't want to happen, like my natural default now, because I've been practicing it for so many years, is, okay, what's the learning opportunity here? What is the upside of this thing not happening?

In fact, I am going to talk to a friend uh later today who is pretty disappointed that they didn't get a job that they've been going for and we've arranged to talk later and again one of the things i i hope i'll be saying to him depending on how our conversation goes is you know's the upside here? I get it, you're disappointed, you really wanted that job. Can you see any upsides here? Because I think even just shifting the question to that, it just suddenly starts to change things, doesn't it?

Yeah, and it's like what Steve Jobs says in that famous commencement speech, you can't connect the dots looking forward. And I think that's really what people who believe everything is happening arbitrarily are trying to popularize this. Nothing is connected, but when you look back, and this is why I love biographies, you read someone's, the entirety of someone's life story, and you can see how pretty much everything that they went through ended up coming into play at some point in their life.

And if we look back at our biography, at our history, if we've lived long enough, we could see a lot of the things that we've been through have shaped our perspective in a way that has informed our best decisions that we've made. Now, there are probably a lot of decisions, again, where you weren't following your internal guidance, you were ignoring it, you're trying to do little bit more altruistic in nature, where you were trying to be helpful, you were being kind, you were being of service in some way, you ended up in a situation

that was maybe better than you imagined for yourself. It maybe made you feel differently than you thought you would feel from leaving the more higher paying job and taking another position that was a little bit less paid, but it was more fulfilling to your heart. unique thing that they can relate to. And there's a feeling that you can't quantify on paper that you're going to have if you're in that kind of situation helping people with something you've personally struggled with. And I guess even if you've followed your head voice instead of your heart voice, I would still subscribe to the view that there are no throwaway moments. Because if you can be honest and intentional,

right, which is I think what your entire approach is really about, you can then assess that. I've done this recently in my own life about a certain job I took a few years ago. And instead of, you know, cursing myself for it because I didn't really enjoy it, I resented it whilst I was in it. It's now, oh, you can learn from that, which means I'm not going to make that mistake the next time. And that actually a very similar scenario has presented itself. And this time I said no, because I said yes to that and learnt, ah, this is what happens when you follow your head voice and not your heart voice, right? So even the situations that you don't think you want to happen are very, very powerful if you can be

honest with yourself. And again, bringing it back to meditation or stillness, if you have that time and space, I completely agree with you, like that actually, that's when you start to be able to, I think, honestly assess your life. And as you say, you can't hide from yourself, right? That voice is there. You know, you can distract yourself with whatever you want, Instagram, social media, sugar, booze, whatever it might be. But in those quiet moments, that voice is there. You know, and I think suppressing it and not paying attention to it is toxic for mental health and physical health in the long term for sure. You like biographies.

I've also read that one of your favorite books is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Why is that one of your favorite books? You know, I read that book years and years ago. I haven't even read it recently, but there are some parts of it that really stuck out to me. And it was the first time I thought I really was presented with this idea that the way you do anything is the way you do everything. And that's essentially what it's about. It's about how it's a fictionalized story of this guy that drives across country with his son on a motorcycle. And he's teaching his son these philosophical and spiritual lessons about how when you maintain a motorcycle, there's no difference in the motorcycle and you, you and the motorcycle are one. And so the care and the attention you give to

maintenance of it is a part of the process of being with it. And if you're sloppy with it six days out of the week, you can't expect to be perfect with it on the seventh day. If you have to be perfect every, there's this quote from the book. He says, if you want to paint the perfect picture, all you have to do is make yourself perfect and then paint naturally.

And I love that. If you want to be fulfilled, all you have to do is cultivate fulfillment and just act naturally. In other words, you don't have to try to go out and do things that will lead to fulfillment. Just create that internally. And that's why the first principle in my book is about cultivating inner happiness. And then the second principle is then making your most important decisions from your heart

and not from your head. Now, if you skip the first step, it's really challenging to make those decisions from your heart because you're not going to be able to hear it very clearly, first of all, but then also the head or the ego is really good at disguising itself as your heart and making you think that you're listening to your heart when actually you're still listening to your head because the telltale sign is you're too attached to the outcome. With the heart, you're more engaged in the process

of the whole thing. The head makes you think about, okay, what's the payoff? Am I gonna be more recognized? Is this gonna help me become more famous? Is this gonna help me get more money? Is this gonna help me do this? It's all about me, me, me, me, me. Can I provide?

Can I, you know, whereas the heart is really about, hey, you have this gift and you need to share it with other people. And you're sharing it to help them, right? That's the payoff. The payoff is they get helped by it, not you. You don't need their approval for you to be fulfilled. You're sharing it because you're fulfilled.

You're sharing it because you're happy. And then no throwaway moments comes after that. That's principle number three. to be fulfilled. You're sharing it because you're fulfilled. You're sharing it because you're happy. And then no throwaway moments comes after that. That's principle number three. It's very difficult to treat life as though there are no throwaway moments if you haven't been making heart-based decisions. And if you haven't been tuning into those internal nudgings of the heart, it's hard to give what you want to receive, which is principle number four. It's very difficult to follow your curiosity because it's just not as much of a priority, which is principle five. And then finding comfort and discomfort because discomfort is too, it's just too much. And it's, that's why most people are, they're equating success with comfort. They're striving for more comfort because there's such

discomfort internally that they can't cope with. And then seven is freedom of choicelessness. comfort internally that they can't cope with. And then seven is freedom of choicelessness. And then you hear people like me walking around living out of a backpack. Oh, I can't, there's no way I could do that. Right. But again, I'm not asking you to do that. I'm saying, paint yourself into a corner in some way. Post a daily blog. That's your version of it. Put yourself on the hook. You know, it's kind of like what Seth Godin says, be on the blog. That's your version of it. Put yourself on the hook. You know, it's kind of like what Seth Godin says, be on the hook. It's actually better to be on the hook than it is to keep taking yourself off the hook

from whatever your commitment is, your personal contribution to the tribe is. And that could be, you know, the podcast. It could be going off social media for two months. You know, that's a corner you painted yourself in because everyone around you is on it. You obviously want to be on it, but you've told yourself, I'm committed to not being on it for a certain period of time. What's the payoff? Maybe I'll get an insight. Maybe I'll be more present

with my family and my kids. Maybe that will lead to something else, some other idea, book idea, perhaps, that I can then share with the world, right? Why did you ask me just before we started, did you really go off social media all summer? I'm really interested in that question. I haven't been able to shake it since then. Is it because you think it's unusual these days? Is it because, I don't know, I'm genuinely interested

as to why did you ask, are you really doing that? I was just curious about your, I've always been curious about it since I saw you do it. And actually you inspired me to do it once. And I went off and took it off the phone and then found myself opening up like the weather app because I was just wanting to, I realized it wasn't even about social media.

It was about distractions. It was about having something to do. And so, you know, over the years, things like that evolve. And people ask me, do you really live out of a backpack? Yeah. Do you? Well, you know, yes, technically I live out of a backpack. But as I mentioned, I'm still based somewhere. So I've arranged a situation where I have this Airbnb that when I'm on the road, like I am right now, other people are staying in it. But when I come back, there's a place where I can stay. And so I have a little bit of stability. I have a gym membership in Mexico City and I have a group of friends.

And a minimalist with a gym membership in Mexico City and I have a group of friends and stuff like that. And a minimalist with a gym membership. So yeah, and I don't know how long this is gonna last. And I think it's so, and this is another thing I was telling a friend of mine, she was saying how she's getting a divorce. She filed for divorce after 30, 40 years from her husband. And I was listening to her and, you know, she was telling me all,

he's a narcissist and this and that and the other. And I said to her at the end, I said, you know, I support everything you're talking about and it's okay if you change your mind. You know, cause a lot of times we'll think, oh, I've taken this really hard stance and now I'm kind of locked in, but it doesn't have to be a forever thing. You can go with it and maybe your heart voice says, okay,

it's time to go a different direction now and go back into it. And this is, again, this is something that was really profound for me from my sort of spiritual, the exposure to spiritual teachers. One says, there's this practice of, which means go where you are not. So when something is unknown and you're in a place where things are repeating too much, there's too much comfort, then from a spiritual perspective,

it's actually more dangerous to stay in that place of familiarity than it is to keep moving towards some place that's a little bit more unknown. In other words, moving towards growth, moving towards some degree of transformation, stretching yourself a little bit. And then eventually that place is going to become familiar, in which case you may go back to the other place. And so there's this sort of isolation that's happening. And it's not about getting to one place permanently, but continuing to stay on the move with your own growth and and allowing the way you feel about these things to sort of inform what your next move is so in her example it's not about necessarily

getting back to this particular guy but maybe if there's another situation and she's thinking oh i've already done that or you know um I'm so comfortable now on my own. Maybe the next step in her own personal growth and evolution is to find some other version of that that's a little bit more suitable to where she is or where she's grown. And that's how we do in the gym. You want to keep stretching yourself. You want to keep introducing new levels of resistance in order to keep encouraging that growth. And the same is true for spirituality. Let's talk about values. You mentioned it earlier on in the conversation when we were talking about purpose and curiosity. And another thing I really like about the book is these practical exercises

that are dotted throughout. One of them around values was the funeral exercise yes so one of you could talk us through that because i do think values is something pit it's something people hear a lot about and then they often go yeah but i i don't know where to start like i don't know what my values are and i think this funeral exercise really kind of speaks to that. Yeah. And that's one of the things I really try to do with this book and my body of work in general is to try to find accessible ways for people to understand, or at least take the first step in the direction of defining their values or tuning into their heart and all of these. So with the values exercise, I ask people to imagine their funeral and people coming

up to the podium to say something about them. And I think we can all think about what do we want people to say about us, about the life that we lived. Now, if you've been to funerals, and I've been to several, the more touching testimonials are the ones where people talk about, oh, this person was very patient with me. This person was very generous, was very kind. And so usually it has nothing to do with how much money you made

or how much material possessions you had and things like that. It's really about who you were as a person. You were honest. You were a person of integrity. You were someone who gave people second chances, right? So when you kind of lock in on your list of values that you would like to be your legacy

and you start grouping them together in categories and maybe this value is all about family. I value my family connections and then maybe I value my ability to inspire people. That's one of my own personal values. And so once you have maybe three or four, you consolidate them so three or four or five values that can become your new filter or your new editor through which you make your choices.

Either the choices align with the values or they don't align with those values, right? So if you're thinking about three different types of job opportunities and one of them pays a lot of money, but it compromises two or three of your values to take that job, then from your heart's perspective, that's not even an option. It doesn't matter how much they're paying you. If another opportunity is paying less money, but it checks all the boxes value-wise,

that's your job. And so that's what I mean by that freedom of choicelessness. And when you start to operate like that and make decisions based on that, again, on the surface, it's gonna look like, oh, you're depriving the people who depend on you of that additional money. You could be paying for college.

I get the whole conversation, but here's what I want people to consider. When you take an opportunity that checks more of those boxes that align with your values, you're going to be more engaged, you're going to be more present, and you're going to be more inspired in that work than you will no idea what other opportunities are going to come about from being involved in that versus the negativity that can result from putting yourself in a situation where you feel compromised on a regular basis. And that can lead to all kinds of weird emotional, mental, and health challenges that then the people who you claim to love and want to care for are going to have to care for you at some point and oh man i've seen that so many times so many times with patients people and i do want to acknowledge like you have that it can be really challenging and sometimes people have to make choices that maybe are not their optimal choices but they feel that they're the best choice that they can make because of their situation finances bills whatever it might be but I have seen too many times people who

have neglected their relationships with their partner with with their children, to chase more work, a promotion, more money, and told themselves a story that I need this to give them this certain lifestyle, let's say. But it always comes at a cost. There's always a cost. And often it's the denigration of those relationships or the making their kids feel guilty that, you know, I'm working so hard to look after you and give you all these opportunities. Well, your kids probably didn't even ask you for that, right? It's like, but because of the stress you are bringing onto yourself by following the head voice, not the heart voice, often you then take it out on those people. So yeah, maybe materialistically you're giving them what you think they want,

but it's coming at a huge emotional cost. And actually that's another part of the book I really like, this idea of there being no free lunch, that every single thing in life has a cost. Can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah. So just in that example of the jobs, let's say one salary is a hundred thousand, and that's the one that compromises your integrity, right, and does not align with your values. And the other salary is 60,000 pounds, and that's the one that checks all the boxes. than the $100,000 because there's a cost to that neglect and to the tension and the friction that's gonna build up over time from taking the higher paying job on the surface where you could argue that the cost deducted

from the salary makes that job only really a 30,000 pound job. And the spiritual paycheck that you get from checking all the boxes with the lower paying job actually makes that one the 120,000 pound paying job. And so that's actually the highest paying job that you have available because you can't discount the cost of the friction

that's gonna be created from compromising your integrity if you're a spiritually mature person. If you're not, then as you mentioned earlier, maybe you have to have that experience to appreciate the value of your integrity. And if you ask yourself that question, what is my integrity actually worth? Is it worth that extra 40,000 pounds over the longterm? What's the value of my mental health worth? You know, someone said, you don't deserve mental health. You don't deserve physical health. Anyone hearing that would be offended. Of course I do. What are you talking about? I deserve everything, da, da, da, da.

But are you acting like that? Are you making choices that demonstrate that you feel genuinely that you deserve to have the best mental and physical health available. Well, if you do, then you can't put yourself in situations that are compromising that very easily. And I'm not saying that you can't work side jobs and do temporary things and make ends meet. If that's where you are in your life, where you don't have the luxury of choice,

then you do what you have to do, but then you better be using your weekends and your nights, you know, your five to nine hours. You need to be utilized with taking those little hops of faith in the direction of whatever it is that lights you up inside. And it's also, I think, because we don't value, you know, there's a monetary value to that job that we can see in the presentation. That's like, if you take this job, we're going to give you this much, but we don't put a value in the same way. Many of us, at least certainly when we're maybe, as you would put it, spiritually immature or not as mature as we might be, we don't put a value on what it feels like to be rested at the weekends or take

a two hour hike with our partner and our children feeling totally chilled. Like we're not seeing that on the job description, right? But that's what it's taken away from us some of the time. And I speak with passion about this having, I think, made some mistakes there in the past. And going back to why do I take the social media break every summer? Many reasons for it. In answer to your question, yes, I do go off. I post my final post and I don't even look at the comments. I delete the app straight away. As soon as it's posted, I press delete on the app and it takes two or three days before the fidgetiness of not checking Instagram goes. And then you don't want to get back on it at the end of it. You really,

you lean into this calm and this presence. But for me, it's about, because I have a regular practice of solitude, because I'm aware that my relationships, in particular with my wife and my children, are the most important things in my life, then whilst my children are young and whilst they have these six-week summer holidays, and because a lot of what I do in my public facing work is online, I have decided that for me and my family, it's a really good practice for me to go off during that time. It doesn't mean I don't have any work to do or anything else, but we purposely stop our podcast for six weeks. We don't release and I go off social media and I've got to say,

I love it. It doesn't mean I don't like being back on Instagram. It doesn't mean I don't love releasing this podcast each week, but it's by knowing my values. Basically what you're talking about is by making mistakes, realizing that there are no throwaway moments as you write about, and learning from them and going, ha, well, whilst the kids are young, I'm lucky enough to be in a position in my life and career where I can do this. Some people may not be. Some people might say, well, social media is how I run my business or my work. I can't go off. Okay, fine. No worries. I get that. But for me, it works. How has it changed your relationship when you're back on it over the years? It's dramatically changed it. So I think, I don't feel a detox period each year is necessarily a substitute

for an ongoing healthy relationship. I think you could easily go off for a month each year and then go straight back into the same patterns as you were before. I think for me, you realize how much noise that is on social media. You realize how much your thoughts and beliefs are influenced by the content you're consuming. So I really feel for me over the summer, I really get to tune in more to what I think. Without the influence of,

what does this influencer think? Or what does my friend here think? Of course, as humans, we are social animals. We do respond to the world around us, but I feel I can tune into myself more. I can hear my heart voice better when I'm off social media. I find it harder when I'm on it regularly. And so how does that directly work for me? I have someone on my team who posts some of the content on social media. Now I write it and sign it off, but I don't, I mean, a few posts I do post myself, but a lot of the time it's someone in my team who works as part of the podcast who puts the video out. So I've given myself a bit of distance between myself and actually going on there, which has been incredibly helpful. Now, I'll also acknowledge that not everyone has,

you know, a public profile like I do. And so because of that, and there's a lot of noise on social media, a lot of comments, I've just realized that a lot of the time it doesn't help you. Good or bad. It's not necessarily, I don't think we're wired as humans to have the opinions of thousands of people, good or bad, all the time. That's why I realized I'm a better human. I'm a better dad. I'm a better husband when I spend less time on social media. So I've been, I'm a better dad. I'm a better husband when I spend less time on social media. So I've been, I'm much more intentional with my time when I'm back. Did that answer your question?

Yeah, yeah. For the most part, yeah. I was just curious. I've been doing this experiment in the last couple of years where, and this was actually, I thought about this when you inspired me to go off completely. And I thought, instead of this whole pendulum thing, I'm going to minimize just everything on social media. So I was following, I think, like 1,200 people at the time. Now I'm following less than 100 people. And I kind of stick to that.

So again, it's like the backpack. It's the Instagram version of the backpack. If I follow somebody, I got to unfollow somebody else. And that's another thing I think I've done. As I've come back on, I did a big cull. And again, it's not personal against anyone who I don't no longer follow. It's just being intentional about what you're letting into your mind. And so, yeah, quite similar as well. I've learned that actually I don't need to be following it's just being intentional about what you're letting into your mind right and so yeah quite similar as well I've learned that actually I don't need to be following everyone or sometimes I'm looking at people think why am I following this person I pressed follow maybe four years ago because I like to post and I've not seen one since so I love that that the similarities between that and a backpack I really did want to talk about your minimalist approach to exercise,

because I think exercise and moving more is something so many people struggle with. And yeah, why don't you speak a bit about your approach? Because I think it's fantastic. So during the pandemic, obviously I was a big gym goer. I've been for years. And I would go to the gym prior to the pandemic and stay in there for like an hour, hour 15, and do a bunch of exercises, deadlifting and compound exercises and stuff. And obviously, all that got shut down during the initial lockdown periods. And I found myself not really continuing with my exercises. And then eventually I thought, well, okay, let me get honest with myself. Why am I not exercising? Well, there's nowhere to go. It's too much of a hassle, blah, blah, blah. I need all these different things to be in place.

And I thought, okay, well, what's something I can just do right now using what I have? what's something I can just do right now using what I have? And I just started this sort of calisthenic program. But one of the things that would stop me was, okay, what am I going to do today? Oh, let me think. Well, I did that yesterday. I don't want to do that the same. And so eventually over many weeks, I devised this sort of seven-day plan where I would do one body part each day, and I would only do, say, 20 reps of that body part. So I would do push-ups on Mondays. I would do air squats on Tuesdays. I would go find a pull-up bar somewhere and do pull-ups on Wednesdays. And I was only doing 20 reps. So it would only took me five minutes. And what I found was that it left me wanting more. And there was something about the consistency of doing the

same thing on that day of the week that I didn't have to think about it. And I started looking forward to it. And then I started introducing exercise bands into the equation. So to make the pushups, to increase the resistance on the pushups and the squatting, wrapping the bands around my shoulders and standing on the bottom part of the bands. And eventually it just became this sort of minimalist workout program that I started doing every day. And then I created this online challenge to help, you know, because people kept asking me about it. And so then it became this sort of 108 day movement challenge where we were all doing the same thing on the same day of the week. And you're building up to 100 reps and you're focusing mainly on quality, quality of movement, full form stretches and breathing and making the whole thing sort of a moving meditation. And I found that to be very, I was able to kind of trim back down again, just doing that, not doing anything

else. And again, I was in my late 40s when I started doing that. I'm 50 now. And I feel like I'm in the best shape of my life. I've gotten back in the gym now and I started implementing the same thing, but with weights. So I do one weight exercise per day, five sets of five. And I go to, in the last set, I'll go to a failure.

But yeah, it's like yesterday was, what was yesterday? Yesterday was, what day was yesterday? Yesterday was Monday. Monday. So Monday is pushup day. So, or bench press day. And? Yesterday was Monday. Monday. So Monday is push-up day or bench press day.

And then today is squat day and things like that. So, and if I don't have access to a gym, I'll just do the calisthenic version. Yeah, I love it. And you've gone through all the details in the new book. I love it for so many reasons. Number one, it reminds me of what you said earlier in this conversation about meditation you know make it easy and stop when you still feel you can do more so you're you're kind of

itching to come back you know you don't go to max and beyond it's like no i could do more and then you're excited to come back to it i think that's i think that's really good. And again, speaking to that sort of, I guess, Western v. Eastern approach, the Western approach is much more about pushing it hard, going to failure, doing as much as you can, leaving nothing out there, right? Whereas the Eastern approach might be, and these are generalizations I know, might be more the approach you're adopting, which is do this amount, you know, leave something in the tank. Don't, you know, might be more the approach you're adopting, which is do this amount, leave something in the tank. Don't kill yourself with fatigue and stress so you can come back the next day. So I like that aspect of it. He says, sometimes it only took you five minutes to do these reps

or potentially less sometimes. Again, I've been talking about a five minute kitchen workout for years on the show. I love approaches like that because I think the obstacles people put up in their minds to moving more are very, very fragile once you start to explore them. You know, I don't have the right equipment. I don't have the right shorts, right? The gym's too fast. Okay, cool. All right. Well, we can address all of those with the approach you just outlined, right? And I also love the aspects of eliminating choice. And I know there's a lot about choicelessness and the beauty of that in your book, which we probably don't have time to explore today, but again, big fan of eliminating choice from our lives. And you just made it super easy. You don't have to procrastinate on Monday and figure out, well, what workout I'm going to do today.

It's push-up day. Yeah, every day, every Monday. If you're traveling, you know you're going to do push-ups on Monday. Have you done your workout today? I haven't done it today yet. Okay, but you will? I will, yeah. Absolutely.

Because it's a commitment you made to yourself. It's air squats, yeah. So later on, when I get to Dublin and check into the hotel, I'll just do my air squats. I'll even do them in the shower. It doesn't matter where you do them as long as you do them. And I kind of like doing them in the shower. That was one of the things that was the catalyst for me writing this book is I was in the shower with all my clothes on doing air squats.

With all your clothes on. With my clothes on. Explain. on. With my clothes on. Explain. Because I had started hand washing my clothes as a way of just, you know, being more efficient and cutting down to the backpack thing. And then I thought, you know, I'm wasting water here. I like taking long showers and I'm using a separate situation to hand wash my clothes in the sink. Why don't I just wash my clothes while I'm taking a shower? And that way I can have the long shower and I'm better utilizing the water in the shower. And so then I thought, why am I even taking my clothes off?

I just keep them on when I get in the shower. I love it. It's not as ridiculous as it sounds. And I do like that section in the book on hand washing. And it kind of reminds me of when I was a kid and like every other summer, we'd go to India for six weeks to see our family. And the alternate summers of those, we'd go around Europe. So my dad would drive from the Northwest of England. We'd get the ferry into France. We'd just drive everywhere for three weeks. We didn't actually take that much. And I seem to remember, I've got this memory when I was reading your book of mum

just cleaning our clothes and like hanging them up in hotel rooms and just washing them. And you know, for the last few years, I've realised I do that. I travel light now. You know, no pun intended there with your book, but I do. And this summer when we went to Greece, hardly took anything because I know I'm not going to wear much in a hot climate. And then you can pretty much wash everything when you're having a shower. And it dries, if you're in a hot climate like Greece, it dries in about 20 minutes. And it's interesting that that whole hand washing piece is probably something that many people did like 50 years ago. You know, that was the norm before washing machines.

Yep, yep, yep. That was exactly how people clean their clothes. Even in places like India, that's still how it happens on a regular basis. And this 108 day program that you, and I know you run lots of them. I think it's your email list, is it? Yeah. Which is really good. I enjoy getting's your email list, is it? Yeah.

Which is really good. I enjoy getting your emails. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Really, really. And you're still doing them daily, right? I am. Yeah. How long has that been now? It's been seven plus years now. Seven plus years. Have you ever missed a day of sending this email? No.

Okay. Freedom of choicelessness. So you have no choice. Like you've made a commitment to yourself that you're sending this email. Correct. So what happens on those days where your plane's delayed, the wifi's out, your phone freezes, whatever it might be,

and you just think, ah, you know what, just one day. It doesn't matter. I've done the last six years, I've done the last seven, I just missed one day. It doesn't matter. You know, I've done the last six years. I've done the last seven. I just missed one day. What goes through your mind? I'll, by any means necessary. So I'll just, you know, it's a priority for me. So I'll make whatever adjustments I need to make.

And, you know, we do this anyway. People may hear that and say, oh, it sounds extreme. You do it for coffee. If you're a coffee drinker, you'll go out of your way to get a cup of coffee. If you're a sugar addict, you'll go out of your way to get sugar. If you're a pothead, you can go to Amish country

and find out where to get pot. That's what you're dependent upon. So if you do it enough times, it becomes a lifestyle, in which case you just accommodate, you adjust, you make, it's not an intellectual thing anymore. It's really, you've embodied it. And so I think about it days in advance if I have to go somewhere or do something

or I'll decline an invitation if it's gonna be too disruptive. I just won't go, you know? This is really interesting to me because this sounds like a sacred commitment that you've made to yourself. Yeah. Like this speaks to purpose, values,

like the heart voice, like making a vow, a commitment to yourself and not breaking it. Well, you know, you asked me earlier, what was there, pain or something that inspired me to make some of these changes? And it's actually the opposite. I feel like I have such good fortune in my life as a result of those commitments. And I wouldn't want to spoil my access to the good fortune by compromising on the thing that's creating that good fortune. So I've seen a lot of the correlation between me not getting sick for seven plus years.

Not saying that that was because I write a daily dose of inspiration email, but I found myself again in some pretty fortunate circumstances. And I choose to adopt the belief that because I am as committed to what I consider to be my purpose, which are the things that I use to help other people. And that allows me to have the resources that I'm, have conversations with you. Like I wouldn't be having this conversation had I not been as committed as I was. And you can't look back and go, which ones was the email that was the most important?

It was the whole thing. It was the whole body of work and it hasn't stopped. Have you missed or when was the last time you didn't meditate? I haven't meditated this morning yet, but I'm gonna meditate on the flight. So, okay. So let me ask it a different way.

How long have you been meditating for every single day? I can't remember the last time I went a whole day without meditating. If it did happen, it was, you know, probably there was some extreme thing going on but generally speaking you've been meditating daily for about 20 years 20 years so i think those two things you just said i think there's something so powerful about them writing a daily email for seven plus years most people

would hear that and go oh my word no way could I do that. Yet as you beautifully explained, people go out of their way for other things, coffee, sugar. But imagine if every time you wrote a daily email and sent it out, you got a deposit in your checking account for a thousand pounds. Imagine if that was the case. Everyone would do it every day. You would have no problem doing it and what i'm presenting with this book and just my again my body of work in general is that to your spirit it feels like you're getting a thousand pound deposit every day so it's not a it's not a hassle it's not it's not something i have to force myself to do. It's something I want to do because I know what the payoff feels like. And once you, and the same with meditation,

I love meditating. It feels like taking a bath, a bubble bath for my mind. So who wouldn't want that? So I'll happily, you know, be a little late to an appointment if that allows, if that means I have time to meditate because it just feels great and I feel great for the rest of the day.

I think when people see it as a chore, they have it in the chore category, then it's like, wow, that's a lot of discipline. It's the attitude to the activity that dictates a lot of this, right? It's how do you view it? How do you see it? Or it's the embodiment, you know, writing all that generates so much creativity that I can now write, write books. I can articulate myself. I'm a better speaker. I'm a better storyteller. For people who do want to sign up to that, what's the link? We'll put it in the show notes. Just go to lightwatkins.com. Lightwatkins.com. Yeah. The wider point for me, and I love about these deposits in your spiritual bank accounts, because I think, as you say, discipline is honesty, right? A lot of the time we struggle to make changes is because we're not willing to be brutally honest with ourselves. We're not willing

to do the work of figuring out, well, what are our values? We convince ourselves that we don't have time to not look at our phone for 10 minutes in the morning. I've tried to convince myself of that in the past. And then I realized what a fallacy that was. And one of the wider points to me is that it's this idea that I think a lot about, like, that we are looking to externalities for evidence. What does the research show us? You know, what does this scientific paper say? And these things can have value, but I honestly believe with all my being that the very best form of evidence is experience. That commitment you're showing to yourself by not missing a day meditating, by sending out your daily email for seven plus years.

I feel that does something so powerful because it shows you, it shows your inner world, it shows your mind, it shows your soul that you show up for yourself. Doesn't matter what's going on, you still show up for yourself. And I think that is so, so powerful. It's one of the reasons I love this minimalist approach to exercise that you write about because if you show up for yourself. And I think that is so, so powerful. It's one of the reasons I love this minimalist approach to exercise that you write about, because if you show up for yourself each day with a five minute workout and you do it day after day, you change how you see yourself. Your identity starts to change. You boost your own self-esteem. You become someone who can stick to the things that you said you were going to do.

You can keep your word to yourself. It builds momentum. It builds consistency. And I think, certainly I'm biased by my experience as a doctor here, from what I've seen in many people is that the five minutes over time becomes 10 minutes, becomes 15, becomes a regular twice a week at the gym as well. Whereas I've often found that when we try and go all in at first, especially if we don't have the resources for a trainer or people to keep us accountable, I find that people can often fall off the wagon quite quickly. And then do nothing. And then do nothing. So, Lights, I always enjoy talking to you. To finish off this conversation, that we've covered so many different topics. Through your email list and your social media, you set people off on all kinds of challenges.

If you were gonna leave my audience with one simple challenge right now, what would it be? right now, what would it be? Tell yourself the truth about one thing in your life and take an action on that honesty. And it could be, you know, I'm having a very difficult time quitting sugar, to use that example. So what's one thing you can put in place

that's gonna help you to create the experience or the relationship with sugar that you ultimately wanna create? And it could be these cakes or puddings or cookies or whatever. I can't stop eating them. Okay, so maybe you just, you donate them. You get them out of your house,

get them out of your pantry. Just agree to not purchase them anymore. You can eat them when you're out of your house, but you don't eat them when you're at home. Or you replace them with carrots or some other sweet type of vegetable or fruit. So some other version of that. Yeah, I love it.

Honesty and action. You're doing great Yeah. I love it. Honesty and action. You're doing great work. I think it's a fantastic book that's coming on the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm glad we were able to do it in person. It's an honor. Me too, man. And looking forward to more conversations. Me too. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation

that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else,

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