Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - How To Live Your Life Without Regret, The Importance of Speaking Your Truth & Why Silencing Yourself Impacts Your Health & Happiness with Africa Brooke #454

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

How often do you stop yourself from saying what you really think for fear of being rejected, punished, or not fitting in? Whether it's sharing our true thoughts at work, online, or with loved ones, self-censorship can prevent us from fully expressing ourselves and living authentically. It can also have profoundly negative consequences for our health and happiness.   This week’s guest is Africa Brooke, an internationally recognised consultant, accredited coach, public speaker and podcaster. She’s also the author of the wonderful new book, The Third Perspective: Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance. In our conversation, Africa explains the different ways in which we silence ourselves and the severe consequences, over time, when we don’t change course. She also explains the importance of creating a culture where everyone has room to mess up, stumble, learn and grow - privately and publicly - without the overwhelming pressure to be perfect. Africa shares her journey with addiction and reveals how it taught her valuable lessons about the importance of self-honesty and authentic expression for personal wellbeing and growth. She emphasises that the path to overcoming self-censorship starts with self-awareness, taking responsibility for our values, and practising honest expression, even if it feels uncomfortable. We also explore how we can better approach disagreements with others, the importance of avoiding absolutist thinking and how we can model healthy expression for our children, by showing up as our imperfect selves - by living and speaking our truth, we build trust and give them permission to do the same.   I think Africa is someone who is talking about a crucially important topic in the most beautiful, profound and compassionate way. My hope is that this conversation serves as a powerful reminder of the freedom and wholeness that comes with authentic self-expression and how embracing our true voice is a courageous and transformative act. Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://drinkag1.com/livemore https://vivobarefoot.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/454 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Self-censorship is when you're withholding your speech, your ideas, your expression in whatever form, it could even be physical expression. You're withholding some information because you believe that if you externalize it, if you express yourself in the way that you truly want to, you're going to be punished for it in some way. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. Before we jump into this week's episode, I wanted to let you know that I have just announced my very first National UK Theatre Tour. I am creating a very special evening where I hope to leave you feeling inspired, empowered and motivated to make positive changes in your life.

It's called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. I'm coming to 15 venues all over the UK. All details can be seen at drchatagy.com forward slash tour to tell your friends, put the dates in your diary, and I very much hope that you can join me. Now, on to today's episode. How often are you fully being yourself in your interactions with others?

And how often do you stop yourself from saying what you really think for fear of being rejected, punished, or not fitting in? Self-censorship is becoming increasingly common these days, whether it be at work, online, or with loved ones. And it is one of the most insidious habits that can get in the way of us living truly authentic lives, it can also have profoundly negative consequences for our health and our happiness.

This week's guest is Africa Brooke, an internationally recognized consultant, public speaker, and accredited coach who has just published the wonderful new book, The Third Perspective, Brave Expression in the Age of Intolerance. In our conversation, Afrika explains the many different ways in which we silence ourselves and the severe consequences over time when we don't change course. She also explains the importance of creating a culture where everyone has room to mess up, stumble, learn and grow privately and publicly without the overwhelming pressure to be perfect. In fact, Africa herself has previously struggled with addiction and today she speaks openly and honestly

about her own recovery journey and the powerful lessons that it taught her. We also explore how we can better approach disagreements with others, the importance of avoiding absolutist thinking, and how we can model healthy expression for our children by showing up as our imperfect selves. By living and speaking our truth, we build trust and give them permission to do the same. speaking our truth, we build trust and give them permission to do the same. I think that Africa is someone who is talking about a crucially important topic in the most beautiful, profound, and compassionate way. My hope is that this conversation serves as a powerful reminder of the freedom and wholeness that comes with authentic self-expression, of the freedom and wholeness that comes with authentic self-expression,

and how embracing our true voice is a courageous and transformative act. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time. You're someone who I've followed online for quite some time now, and I think you're speaking to something that many people feel but they don't know how to articulate and I think your new book is going to give people a vocabulary to talk about something that I think affects us all yes I wanted to start off, Africa, talking about one of the most common regrets of the dying, which is, I wish I lived my life and not the life that other people expected of me. I think about your work, your writings, your new book, to me, it kind of speaks to this regret. How does that land for you? My entire body is lit up in goosebumps because you've just articulated it in a way that I've never thought before, but in a way that feels so intuitively true that the reason I stand for brave expression in the way that I do, the reason that I push back very firmly, but compassionately push back against

self-censorship or us overly editing our thoughts, agreeing with things that we don't actually agree with is that I, it really is one of the things that leaves people in a place of just severe self-distrust. And what you just said reminds me of that thing, right? Of, um, there are people that are still existing as if they are living, but they are already dead inside, you know? And it reminds me of that very thing that we think from moment to moment, inside, you know, and it reminds me of that very thing that we think from moment to moment, that we are just allowing something to fly, just agreeing because we want to keep the peace, we just want to belong. But actually, what we're also doing is getting further and further and further away from ourselves. And yeah, that that quote, really, really speaks to me. And I know

that it's going to for a lot of people as well. But I just hadn't thought about it as one of the biggest things that people will regret is not allowing for themselves to express what is actually true. Yeah, I'm fascinated by these regrets of the dying. I talk about it often on the show because to me, it kind of speaks to what's really important in life. And can we learn from people on their deathbed to change the way we live today? Yes. And I think one of the reasons I'm so passionate about your work

is because I think on many levels, it speaks to something I have struggled with in the past, levels it speaks to something I have struggled with in the past which is actually truly expressing who you are to the world right and I don't think this is just relevant for people with public profiles like me or you yes right this is relevant for every single person and it seems to me Africa that in society now the way we are, the way culture is moving on, so many of us are, in your words, self-censoring, and we don't even realize that we're doing it. No, and I write about this, and I wonder what you think. But I think we get rewarded for it. We sort of built this environment online and offline, but I think we

get to see it just in a very different way online, where actually you get rewarded for agreeing with the majority. And you get severely, severely, severely punished in many instances for saying, actually, I don't view things in that way. I don't agree with that, or I've changed my mind, or even simple confusion, saying, I don't understand that. You're punished because you should be educated. We sort of use this very self-righteous language, you should be educated, that terminology is outdated, or you don't even get told exactly what it is that you've done. But if it doesn't mirror the approved worldview, you're punished for it. So I can understand. I'm really

empathetic and compassionate to people that do repress their speech, people that overly edit their thoughts. And I think this is one of the biggest problems, that it's not just about what you externalize. The issue is when you start to police your own thoughts, which is kind of what's starting to happen. But we're getting rewarded for not telling the truth. We're getting rewarded for agreeing with things that we don't agree with. So I think there's something there around the social reward that comes with self-betrayal in many ways. So that's, I think that's just sort of one thread of the tapestry, but I'm always curious, what do you think is sort of the reason we self-censor and don't even really recognize that we're doing it or don't question it? It's really hard because again, I'm biased by my

own experience, of course. So I can't necessarily say that my experience speaks to anyone else's. I put a large volume of information out online with the intention of trying to help people live healthier and happier lives. And I've noticed that sometimes you may put something out with the very best intention and it gets interpreted in a different way to how you meant it yes and sometimes people really quite respectfully point something out which is great more often than not though if if someone doesn't share the same view they I don't know how to really describe it, but I'm very keen that this conversation doesn't become just about social media. Absolutely. Because I think social media maybe highlights

the way that we are because, okay, as I was reading your book last night, I stayed up late to finish it actually, it was really compelling me. Thank you. I thought, is social media really as bad as we're often saying it is? Or is it simply reflecting who we are and how we're interacting? Because if we all showed up on social media with kindness, with compassion, with a non-judgmental tone, well, maybe social media would be the very best place in the world to connect. Yeah. Yeah. And you're so right. It's even something that I mentioned quite early on in the book in that this is not a rant about social media. And I go on to say that if it wasn't for social media, you wouldn't know about me. Most people discovered me on social media because I

was sharing my story with addiction. I needed to get well and I was doing it out loud. I ended up building a community accidentally and that very same community is with me eight years on and it's become a big part of my work to explore the human condition of self-sabotage, etc. I've done that through social media and it's had a huge spill over into my offline life. So I really appreciate that you say that because I think it can be a bit of a weak conclusion to come to, to think that the polarization and division that we see today is because of social media, full stop. I think there's a part of that in that the algorithms will amplify things that are, you know, things that convey outrage and confusion and just all of the seemingly low level human emotions. I think we can all agree on that.

media is revealing something that is already there, our inability to hold difference, our inability to hold conflicting views, our inability to even admit that we are contradictory beings, that I can agree with one thing. And then the next moment I might behave in a way that is in direct contradiction with the thing that I agree with. You know, I think we sort of don't see the contradiction in ourselves or accept it within ourselves rather. So therefore we can't accept it in other people. So I think there's, social media holds up a mirror. I think maybe that's how I would put it. It's sort of holding up a mirror to what already is. You've mentioned the term self-censorship a couple of times so far. Can you explain exactly what you mean when you use that term? Yes. And if anyone listening to me now has engaged with my work before, then you will know

that I always like to give a very clear definition of what we're talking about, because this is something I'll come back to later. But I think a lot of the sort of conflict and division we're seeing is because we have definition issues. We're defining things in different ways. If you're working with a different definition, and I am too, we can never come to an agreement because we're arguing about different things. Self-censorship is when you're withholding your speech, your ideas, your expression in whatever form. It could even be physical expression. You're withholding some information because you believe that if you externalize it, if you express yourself in the way that you truly want to,

you're going to be punished for it in some way that you truly want to, you're going to be punished for it in some way, that there's going to be a price to pay. If I really say what I think, I'm going to be punished. I'm going to be socially exiled. And the language that we use today, I'm going to be cancelled for it. If I truly, let's say you're someone that's from a very conservative community, very conservative family, and you want someone that's from a very conservative community very conservative family and you want to dress in a way that is maybe very liberal a way that is seen as a very western way to dress a way that people in your culture are not used to women or men dressing like you might think that if I do this thing I'm going to be punished I'm going to be exiled there's going

to be a cost so self--censorship, I think, we think it's just about speech, what it is that you're saying, but it's in your entire expression. What parts of yourself are you holding back? Because you feel that if they're shown to the world or even to yourself, there'll be a price to pay. So it's very fear-driven. I think I want to make that point very clear that it's fear driven, because a lot of the time people will say, well, Africa, isn't that just being tactful? I'm not actually self-censoring. I'm just being tactful and reading the room. It's not the same. Self-censorship by definition is driven by fear. Please, let's not confuse it with having a social filter. A social filter is a thinking skill that we all use without even realizing we're using it, right? You truly read

the room. You understand that certain conversations, you can't really have them with your family because of many different reasons, cultural reasons, generational differences, difference in humor, difference in humor, difference in understanding. But you can have the similar conversation with your siblings who are maybe a similar age. So it's discernment. It's knowing your audience, knowing the context, knowing that there's a time and a place, reading the room. Maybe it's too early to make a critique. You need to hold space for someone. This is discernment. It's grounded.

So yeah, I think it's important to make it very clear that self-censorship is fear-driven. Let's not confuse it with social filtering, which is grounded discernment. How does someone know the difference? This is something that I think about all the time. And I tend to kind of have different answers because I don't think that there's a neat conclusion to any of this. I think you discover the difference through practice. I think sometimes even when you're social filtering and reading the

room, you might feel discomfort in your body, but I don't think that discomfort on a, and I really want to know your perspective from like a nervous system point of view, like a somatic point of view. I do think that discomfort can be very different from pain. And I think self-censorship will feel on some level like a betrayal because you know that you're not being truthful. You know that you're not being truthful.

You know that you're not being an integrity. You know that you're agreeing with something that you really disagree with, but you're doing so so you can stay safe. Whereas I think social filtering and saying, actually, this is not the right time and place. You might feel maybe even a little bit of discomfort because a part of you wants to say something. But I don't know that it would have the same impact, if you will, on your nervous system

in the way that truly self-centering and you recognizing that your self-centering does. Yeah, I really like that explanation. I really love what you said at the start, which is there's no um explanation i really love what you said at the start which is there's no easy neat answer to that question there isn't there's no easy way to know oh this is self-censoring this is social discernment filtering discernment exactly i think it is something you discover it's something i've discovered for myself and something i've often spoken about on this podcast before is this idea that you can't hide from yourself and that's why for me a daily practice of solitude is one of the most important practices for health happiness well-being not self-censoring whatever it might be because it's only when you have that time with yourself without external inputs,

where you start to really feel what's going on. You know, like if you have self-censored in a particular setting, I don't know, let's make this really practical for people. Let's say in your job, you're at a team meeting and you know what the team is saying is not quite right, or you feel it's not quite right and you don't speak up. If that nags away at you for the rest of the day, that evening when you're trying to go to sleep, you're just lying there, you're thinking about it. I would say that's probably, I can't say in every case but in many cases that might be an indication of self-censoring

now you could also argue that maybe there's a very good reason why you didn't speak up maybe your boss doesn't like people to go against what he or she is saying right so I want to be really inclusive to people and I'm not saying it's easy and you make it very clear in the book they're saying easy but I think if you have spoken up in a very

grounded way using a lot of the tools that you outline in your book I don't think you'll get that nagging feeling afterwards that sort of constantly being be thinking about it again does that make sense 100% and I would even go a step further to say that if you're someone that really wants to cultivate courage and true bravery, not out there in the world, but within yourself, because it really does start with you changing your internal environment, which I make very clear in the book, that I think the assumption immediately will be about, okay, let's look at how other people are being intolerant. Let's have that conversation. But you need to have a look at where are you being intolerant in ways that you don't realize, being intolerant of your own thoughts to say, actually, I can't say this. This is not a good

thought. This is a bad thought. And repressing that. Because in that instance, that thing is nagging away at you and you're thinking I should have said something, but why do I think I should have said something? I think that's the next step to take to even cultivate self-trust, where you get curious about your decision to be silent or your decision to respond. So I think it's not a clear-cut answer, and none of this is, by the way way because it requires you to do a kind of a natural level of self-introspection where you feel something and you take on the role of the observer and you say but why didn't I say something was it truly unsafe or did I perceive that there was some kind of unsafety in the room? Is it because I've never challenged anyone before?

So therefore I'm doing something for the first time. So that discomfort is coming because I didn't allow myself to try something for the first time because I'm so used to agreeing. I think ultimately what I'm sort of hearing, even we're talking that all of this is about cultivating self-trust within yourself first so that you can even be able to discern because how do you discern or decide between right or wrong was I truly silent because I just didn't have enough information or was I silent because I wanted to say something but I was just so afraid that I might be punished or that there's a cost to my words. But all of it requires a level of introspection that can actually be very fun because I think it's easy for people to think, oh, but that's a lot of work. Do I have to overly

monitor everything that I say and every response I make or every choice of silence. I don't think it's about that. I think it's about cultivating and creating self-trust so that you're able to make clear decisions, you know. You mentioned addiction. Okay. And I know you've had issues, let's say with alcohol in the past i think between the ages of 14 and 24 if i remember correctly exactly in the early parts of your book you you talk about this idea that not admitting to an addiction is similar to holding back your opinion i found that really really. So we're talking about self-censorship, right? And we mentioned a team meeting where maybe someone doesn't speak up because of fear. And you're saying that holding back your true thoughts has a lot more in common

with not admitting to something really serious like an addiction than we might think. Can you explain that? Because I think it's really important to help people understand what is the cost of self-censoring? Why should they bother? Go, yeah, Africa, you know what? I am safe when I do that. So why should I bother? It's much better when I don't speak up and I don't put myself out there on social media and I don't tell my boss that I disagree with his or her idea. So I think this might help people understand why it's so important for our health and our happiness that we don't self-censor. Yeah. Oh, I love that you bring that up because that's one of my favorite parts of the book where I make it, I sort of share my personal story, which I only do in the earlier parts of the book and sort of weave it throughout. But

essentially what I'm saying there, and the reason why I think it's so important that you raise that is because to me, when you censor yourself, you're devaluing your experience. You're pretty much saying, and this is unconscious. I understand that. And I want you to understand that it's not a conscious thing. Most of these things are just running on autopilot, old programming that we haven't looked at to think, oh, is this working? Or do I need to get rid of it and install something much more useful? But to me, when you silence your true experience, you're pretty much communicating to yourself that it's not valuable, that it's not worthy of being heard. It's not worthy of being

seen, that it's better to replicate someone else's experience or what someone else thinks of you. So I would say that for those of us that actually care about the relationship that they have with themselves, if you're someone that does value yourself, and I would imagine that every single person who listened to this podcast, every single person who values open conversations like this is someone that wants to be better within themselves. Someone that is so curious about who they are in the world, how they carry themselves, how they treat themselves, the value in which they place on who they are. how they carry themselves, how they treat themselves, the value in which they place on who they are. So I do need you to understand that self-centering is not just this thing that you

might do now and again. It's really important to shine a light on it because when you do withhold those parts of yourself that are so useful, the good, the bad, the ugly, the joyous, the wonderful, if you're holding that back and not allowing for even one person to truly see who you are, you're devaluing your experience. So for me, when I was pretending that I wasn't in the, just in the throes of addiction for a decade from 14 to 24, pretending that it was just, you know, casual drinking drinking even though I was blacking out pretty much every single time everyone around me could see it I could see it but I didn't want to see the truth of it so even then I was censoring the truth of my experience I wasn't owning up to it

myself let alone to other people and I think for me making that connection to realize that actually, I think I had this idea that self-centering kind of came later just through my speech and through things that were happening culturally. But I have done this. I've been doing this since I was a child to not allow for people to know what I'm really going through, because I think I'm going to get in trouble for it in some way. Because that seems to always be the underlying thing, even as adults from the age of when you were six compared to when you're 45, the underlying thing always seems to be, if people really know what I think, what I feel, what I'm experiencing,

I'm going to get in trouble in some way. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of what we're talking about and what you write about in your new book is I think related to our childhood experiences. You know, how were we raised? What did our parents or our caregivers permit? What will be allowed to say and share? What was celebrated? What was shut down? You know, when were we made to feel guilty, all these kind of things. And so if you follow that logic, then you could argue that the way you are self-censoring online with your family, with your work colleagues, in many ways, is a window into your childhood.

Oh, I love that. And there's a series of questions that I put forward. Actually, through the book, you would have seen it. I wanted to make sure that I'm not sort of just giving people more information to take in and they can read it and think, oh, that's true. I really wanted to put forward questions that are very quite deep and introspective. And we tap into that piece on childhood because I'm someone that actually doesn't think that every single thing you experience as an adult is connected to childhood. I think a lot of it is, but not everything. Something can happen in your early 20s. Something really tragic can happen in your 30s that really shapes who you become for the rest of your life. So I take all of that into account, but you're so right

that a lot of things we can trace back to something, even just one incident that happened in childhood. And now it informs the way you share or choose not to share. And something else that I wanted to bring up is there might be people, and I work with a lot of people like this who tend to be men, who are very drawn to this conversation that I'm having, especially from a cultural perspective, but they believe that their problem is not self-censorship. So they are the kind of person that will say, well, I say it how it is. You know, I think other people should learn how to say it how it is. Other people should have a backbone or whatever. But actually they are experiencing the very same problem that those that struggle

with self-censorship do in that their communication is ineffective, full stop. So they are the people that don't have a refined social filter. So you have people that can say, okay, self-censorship is my issue. I'm struggling with knowing what to say. I feel resistance around saying what I know to be true. I feel resistance around saying, I don't know, or I've changed my mind. And then you have people on the other side that have an unrefined social filter where they will not use discernment in any conversation, where they maybe don't have as much empathy and compassion as they would need to in order to be more effective. Maybe they are the people that prioritize facts and logic over emotion, in that

when they're having a dialogue with someone, they really can't see where someone is coming from. So they're very narrow in their own worldview and their communication. But ultimately the two people from the two groups are still being very ineffective in how they communicate. So that's also something that I wanted to speak to. Yeah, you say in the book, don't you? Saying everything and nothing are not your only two options.

Yes, yes. That's the in-between. That's the in-between. That's the in-between. I mean, I don't know if there's any research on this, but how many people do you think this affects? How many people out there? What percentage of the population would you say self-censors? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show.

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regularly and I'm really impressed with their commitment to making a top quality product. Until the end of January, AG1 are giving a limited time offer. Usually, they offer my listeners a one year supply of vitamin D and K2 and five free travel packs with their first order. But until the end of January, they are doubling the five free travel packs to 10. And these packs are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drink81.com forward slash live more. It's something that I think about all the time, especially from culture to culture,

because I think the conversation I am having now and focusing on now, it's from a very Western lens, even though I know it spills over into different cultures, and I'd love to have the culture conversation with you. But I actually think there's a huge silent majority. There's a big, big silent majority. I think we only ever hear from the extremes and we see the extremes online, right? But I think you just have to speak to the people in your life to know what is true. You would just have to speak to the people in your life to know that so many people now more than ever, and I think that's why the term cancel culture is even a thing, because it speaks to something that is so real and something that is

no longer isolated to just online, where you just have to speak to people where they will tell you that they're so afraid to say things, you know, people sort of use it, people sort of make it a caricature that people are complaining that they can't say anything anymore. But there's something to that. If we're to be completely honest, there is something to that, where we started to be completely honest, there is something to that. Where we started to walk on eggshells in conversation that maybe if you say a certain word, has that word been deemed problematic now?

We don't really know. Everything's changing very quickly. There seems to be this expectation that you know all the up-to-date rules and that you have signed up to these rules. Yes. I think one of your chapters is called You Owe the Internet Nothing,

which I just love. The chapter's great, but that chapter title is wonderful. I really want this conversation to be useful for everyone. Yes. Whereas I wouldn't say it's a unique position, but not everyone has a large public profile,

right? But then the bigger your platforms get, the more opinions you're getting exposed to. And hey, I'm not asking for any sympathy, just to be really clear, right? I chose to put myself in this position, but it's interesting what you observe observe I know this is a minor thing I brought this up in a recent conversation with Charles Duhigg who has a book out about conversation and communication how do we become super communicators and it's funny how many messages how many dms I've had since then because I say to me if I'm replying to someone online I'll go and press on the handle to see what their name is and I'll go oh hi Belinda thanks so much for your message um I don't really see it in the same way as you do this is my perspective and the amount of people who don't

say hi Rangan hi anything they're just like what episode is out you know and I get it I get people are busy but if you zoom out for a minute you go what has happened to us as a society as a culture where we no longer have time for the basics of communication yeah like I think it's so important gosh but it's it's it's so unfashionable now it's kind of odd to get someone to go oh hi lisa thanks so much um right do you know what i mean yes yes yes yes and actually so many people have sent me dms go wow you know i've noticed i do that and so they said i'm really sorry and they they've said i've now started to change now listen it's just a tiny thing but it's our humanity isn't it yes absolutely i love that you're bringing this up. And I'm just writing down

the term micro moments and micro interactions, because it's something I think about all the time. And I'll come back to it. But that thing you're speaking to, there might be some people, most people listening to this don't have, let's say, big public platforms. And I threw in the word big very intentionally, because if you're using the internet today and you have a public profile and it's not private, you are somewhat a public figure. Times have really changed. And the reason that I bring that up is because there used to be a very clear difference between someone having 10,000 followers, someone having 20,000 followers, and maybe the person that has a big audience says something and there's uproar. But you could have 10 followers and make a post that you think

is relatively innocent and is not even that important. You didn't say anything huge. Turn off your phone and go about your day, come back and it's gone viral. And now you're being ripped apart in the comment sections. You're being dogpiled. People are telling you what you said is problematic. People are saying that it's wrong. I say that because this conversation is important for all of us, all of us. And the thing you're saying around how people will speak to you and approach you i sort of group that as part of the dehumanizing that's starting to happen online where we treat people like platforms and brands and resources and don't think about the human being behind them

and the higher the follower count the more we think it's okay to dehumanize them it's it's quite mad isn't it it's it's quite mad at the same time for me it's okay to dehumanize them. It's quite mad, isn't it? It's quite mad. At the same time, for me, it's been one of the best tools for my own personal self-growth. And I say to people, if you have a public profile in 2024 and you ain't done the work, you're going to really struggle because you are not wired to have this many opinions about you. Frankly, this applies to anyone. We're not wired to have this much information. Full stop. Coming into our brains, you write about this in your book. We're not designed. It's too much. It's information overloads. Think of what that does to someone's nervous system. Because even just one comment is that

thing right off you could have 200 comments saying rongan your new book was incredible loved the podcast etc then you just have one comment just one that says something that completely opposes it something that really touches something emotive within you. And then you almost don't really feel or connect to the other 200 anymore because we have that negativity bias. Now imagine that happening with thousands of people telling you that you're a bad person, that you're outdated, that you're some kind of bigot. Insert whatever insult you want because online people think it's a free for all. People won't even think, actually, there's already a hundred comments saying this thing.

Is it necessary for me to add? That's a little thing that I invite us all to do because it's, we don't, and again, I say everything that I'm saying, and we're both having this conversation from such a loving, compassionate place, but I think it's time we be more direct and real about what's actually happening. Yeah. I mean, for me, there's a couple of ways of looking at it. Yeah. One is, I don't know if you would agree with this or not, I've really come to the conclusion

that criticism only bothers you to the extent you believe it about yourself. That's certainly been true in my own case. Like if I feel there's an element of truth to it, it really bothers me. And so it works as a beautiful mirror to go, okay, Rangan, why is this piece of criticism bothering you? And that could be a fantastic tool for growth and change. Whereas if you just shut it down and go, that person doesn't know what they're talking about, whatever, actually, you might be losing a really fantastic opportunity to learn and grow. But I think it's very hard for people, for many people to get to that state.

You know, you have to do a lot of inner work to get to that point where you can see, where you're not dependent on other people's views and their opinions. So I think that's one aspect of it that I've certainly learned. The other component though is, and I think you talk about it in the book in relation to the old-fashioned mobs and how those mobs still exist, but they're online. And again, this may be an uncomfortable truth for many people listening, but I'm going to say it in the spirit of your subtitle, brave expression in the age of intolerance, I'm going to say it.

If you pile on people in the comments on social media, if you act in a derogatory fashion, if you think it's okay to be rude on those platforms just because you disagree with what someone has said well you're part of the problem yes yes and i don't say that with any judgment i say that with an open heart that you are part of the problem i oh i really just needed to let that sit because that's the essence of really just what I'm trying to put forward. But even before that, it's the very same thing that I had to tell myself, that it could take a single moment because the way that we experience the digital world, you're just by yourself on your phone. There aren't 10,000 people next to you doing the same thing, sending an angry comment or being reactionary. So I think this process of dehumanization and not understanding

what we're adding to happens because we interact with everything in such a solitary experience, right? Which is why when you post something or say something, someone might come to the comments and berate you for not making it so specific to their life even if you have no idea who they are but but it's that thing we're so um i think as as the human creature we're so self-centered in that we just think about ourselves yeah right so when we experience something online i really think we think we've transcended these very primal things that are within us, but we assume that it's about us. When actually the creator,

the person that has written the words, the person that has put out the thought, they have no idea who you are. I think it's that zooming out and really seeing the truth of the full picture that this doesn't specifically apply to me this wasn't written specifically with me in mind it will resonate with someone else and it's almost like um i know what i'm saying is so obvious or at least it becomes obvious when you listen to me say it but the way we behave, that kind of completely goes out of the window. And we just

think, does this mirror my worldview or not? Does this echo my belief system, the opinions and ideas that I hold? And if it doesn't, that means it's wrong by default. That means you're wrong by default. Instead of saying, actually, I don't agree, but this doesn't, it doesn't apply to me. It's not for me. there's also something that I think many most of us will have witnessed which is again we'll take it away from online in just a moment but in the online world I've seen it thousands of times where people will say, not necessarily to me, I've seen it on other people's platforms, was a really big fan but can't follow you after this last post. Basically, this idea that you have to like either 100% of someone or 0%,

which actually is a little bit childish, isn't it? It's what kids do. You know, you throw your toys out the pram, right? But it's like we're acting like children in our adult lives. I think many of us really are. And here's the question to people. I don't know what you think about this, Africa, but it's like, well, which person in your life, in your real offline life, do you agree with 100% on everything?

I love my wife dearly, but we don't agree on the same things. There's plenty of things we disagree on. It doesn't mean I don't love her and I wouldn't do anything for her. You know, anyone who's a parent, like when you've got adult children children I don't have that yet I've got kids are 13 and 11 but if you've got adult children I'm betting you don't agree on everything you don't then just disown your child because you don't agree with them it's like oh well and so why is it what what's going on with us humans that we can't apply what is really simple logic to the way we interact with people online. Yeah. Oh, I just love and I'm so grateful that we're having this conversation because as we speak,

it's almost like I can feel the relief from people because I think a lot of people have thought that they are the only ones that are spotting these issues or that they can only talk about this privately behind closed doors. Just me and you here. We're talking privately. But you know what? This is such a perfect transition into the offline aspect of it. It's why I address the online part quite early in the book and make it very clear that it's very easy.

It's very tempting to think that this is just online stuff, you know. But actually, again, it's reflecting something that is innate within us, this inability to hold contradictions about ourselves. So I think we're able to hold contradictions quite naturally sometimes about the people that we know, about the people that we have grown up with, about the people who are family, the people who are friends. But for whatever reason, and this is what I want us to explore in real time, for whatever reason, online, we start to chase this moral perfection. It's almost as if it's a way to deal with the things that we can't say offline or it feels like it's just like online we get to pretend we're perfect online you don't have to be contradictory online you can have the perfect opinion online you can be on the right side of history online you can create your own reality

whatever it looks like you can choose who you follow, who you unfollow. But the algorithm kind of gets in the way because it's still going to serve you with people you disagree with. But in your real life life, especially if you haven't cultivated the courage that is so important to say, actually, this person is all of these things, but I love them anyway. It's almost like you get to express all of that online. So I think there's something there. Yeah, I think you've nailed something there. I forget, it really, really landed for me. And I know when I started off this conversation talking to you about one of the most common regrets of dying people, you said that you haven't thought about

your work through that lens before. I wonder if you've thought about it through this lens or not. I think your book, The Third Perspective, could be seen as a health book. The reason I say that, and these are ideas really are and you know yourself to be, and the person who you are being in the world are different, right? That can be a small difference, that can be a big difference, but there is a gap, a void is being created. And in that void, it is so uncomfortable for us that we will lob stuff into that void to stop us from feeling and experiencing it. So I think one of the main reasons why people can't make change that truly lasts is because it's all symptom suppression, right? We talk about food and movement and sleep and stress. And I've spent years trying to talk about these things that give people options. And I think they work very, very well. But some people struggle to turn the short-term change into

long-term change. And that's in my view, because if you haven't addressed this deep core, what is it? This void. If you haven't addressed it, you will keep doing things, whether with your alcohol intake, whether it's with your sugar intake, whether it's the fact that you can't be bothered to get out and move your body, just sit there because of that void. And if you repair that void and it is repairable, and I've repaired it in myself, maybe not completely, but certainly a lot more than it used to be, actually looking after yourself, making good choices for your life and your health actually becomes quite easy. You're not actually fighting anything anymore. Yes. Yes. I don't know. That's how I feel about it.

So it's a health book. Oh, that's, that's, you know, what's, what's so just beautifully crazy is that I was having a conversation last week with my editor and we were having that conversation to kind of think, where does this book, because there's so many layers, not even just the book, actually my conversation ultimately, where does it sort of fit? Because it's philosophical in a lot of ways, but it's also intellectual, sure, exploring things that are quite abstract, right? The human condition, et cetera. But I remember saying to her that this is about health. This is about our health, our mental well-being,

because when you repress things in the mind or emotions, it will manifest in the physical. I remember in 2017, up until 2018 particularly, I suffered with migraines for a year, consistently. And I remember these as the years where I really started to notice just how strong my self-censorship was. There was a lot of things that I wanted to say, a lot of questions that I had, especially around identity politics, my own identity, the things that I wanted to say, a lot of questions that I had, especially around identity politics, my own identity, the things that had outgrown, different ideologies that no longer resonated, but I felt that to belong with my community, my tribe, I needed to hold onto them or always see

the good in them and not question them, not point out any flaws. And I remember suffering with migraines so consistently. then the moment that I wrote my open letter, which eventually inspired the book, I remember not experiencing that anymore. And I think there's this idea that, and I'm sure you, of course, you speak about things like this all the time, but we tend to think that everything is sort of disconnected, that it's fragmented, but that could not be further from the truth. I think sometimes we think, but it's just communication. I just didn't say this thing. It's no big deal, but you do it once. I promise you, you will do it again and again and again and again, and you won't even notice you're doing it, but there'll be some

kind of physical consequence, right? Yeah. First of all, I really appreciate you sharing that. kind of physical consequence right yeah i first of all really appreciate you sharing that i you know with all the years of medical experience i've got that completely lands with me for sure and this doesn't mean and you make this clear in your book we're not talking about expressing everything to everyone no no right but if you don't have somewhere in your life where you can truly be yourself and express the things that are deep inside you, you will feel it in other ways. It will come out in other ways. It may come out with a fight with your partner. It may come out with you behaving pretty poorly on social media because you feel that's where you can actually get it out of you or whatever it might be. But actually, you know, the core is you've

got to sort that stuff out you've got to be able to express yourself in some way and I think sometimes when people frustrate us that we come across online who are really outspoken and I know you share this perspective well I think you share elements of this perspective from reading your book I think one of the reasons we're either put off or drawn towards them, it can be either one, is because we're like, wow, they just speak their truth. Wow, I wish I could do that. I felt that before. I felt that before with some people. I'm like, wow. And I'm not talking about that extreme where they just say everything without any care. I'm like, wow, you're so secure in yourself

that you're able to express these views, even if you know that you're going to get a mob after you when you say it. And I'm like, wow. Yes, I resonate with that so, so much. And I realize now that for me, it was a thing of me saying, wow, you're so free and accepting in who you are as a

person. They were holding up a mirror to me and I was seeing, you know, the sort of cage that I had put myself in. And I remember there are quite a few people that I can think of now who really, in the truest sense of the word, had really triggered me because of the way that they're able to really have conviction in what they say and again I'm not talking about extremes neither of us are and I think it's important to to say that because our minds will immediately go to extremes which is another example to me how we've started to sort of make free expression mean that it's about freedom of consequences, that you just want to say whatever you want to say with no consequences. No, that couldn't be further from the truth. And I remember when I was encountering people who were just so

brave in their voice, stood by their words, were willing to withstand the criticism, listen to the criticism and be like, okay, I'll sit with that and see whether that is actually true or not. There was an envy, there was an admiration and an envy because I was shown by those people and I'm so grateful for them. Some have even become very good friends. I'm so grateful for them because they showed me that I wasn't allowing myself to fully be human. I wasn't, I wasn't. I was trying my very best to be this perfect Africa. Someone who's flawed, there were flaws that I was willing to accept, like my addiction, my own struggles with self-sabotage, allowing for my story to help me help other people. But there were still parts of myself that I was just not allowing the world to

see, but for it to even get to the world, I had to see it first. I wasn't allowing myself to see it because I thought it would lead to rejection in some way. Maybe my audience will reject me, you know, maybe the people that have become fans or people that have started to admire me because of who I am now, if I show this other part of me, you know, they'll disconnect. And these things were not conscious. I wasn't saying this out loud, but this was the running commentary that allowed for me to stay in self-censorship for a very long time. And I just hold so much compassion for all of us. And the thing that you said around the void,

I wrote who you are and who you want to become, right? That gap between. It's so important to shine a light on that incongruence because if we don't, I think that's when we double down on the performance because it's so uncomfortable to look at the truth, right? And I've seen what it looks like to double down. For a brief time, I doubled down because it was way too uncomfortable to be like, oh shit, I have been out of integrity, you know? And I think a lot of us are in that middle part again, in a third perspective in a lot of ways where you don't have so much clarity, so much uncertainty, but you know that your current way of being,

it's just not working anymore. It's just not working. And we get to change that. I think that's the most exciting thing. We actually get to change it, to become aware and say, what if I try doing things a little bit differently you know in one of your previous interviews you said that honesty

is the most powerful self-transformational tool or something to that effect yes yes and i think honesty is a really interesting concept. If you ask anyone who's listening to this right now, are you an honest person? I think everyone will put their hand up and go, yeah, I'm honest. I'm an honest person, right? We all like to think we're honest, but there's different layers and there's a different depth to certain, depth to certain, how can I put it? There's being honest, i.e. you don't steal. If you find 10 pounds on the side of the street, outside a shop, you go into the shop, right? There's that level of honesty, but there's also the honesty where you are truly, truly honest with yourself. Right now, in your book, you talk about this three-step process as it

were awareness yeah responsibility and expression so first of all we need to become aware that's that's the key step for all of us and whatever we want in life right yes but how does honesty play into awareness and why is honesty so transformational in your view oh i love that i love that and the three the three sort of um pillars and the three anchor points for even just the conversation we're having to me it's awareness responsibility and expression and it's very intentional that it's in that order because when people come to me, for example, in the work that I do, they want to rush to the expression piece. And I wonder if you get this in some way with your work, give me the strategy, give me the six steps. What do I say?

Maybe even through this conversation, someone was kind of just waiting. Okay. So can you give us the script? You know, we're all kind of waiting for the script and I get it, but without being aware of what's currently working or not working, how can you get to the expression piece? So then maybe you could think, okay, just having the awareness, what am I afraid of? Where does my resistance lie? What's working and what's not working? You can so much information, right? You might think that's enough preparation to go to expression, but it's not. Responsibility is so key. Are you willing to take responsibility for all of that information that has been revealed to you? Or are you going to blame? I'm repressing my speech because of cancel culture. I'm repressing

my speech because other people are intolerant. I'm repressing my speech and my general expression because of X, Y, Z. There's a level of personal responsibility that is so non-negotiable with everything we're talking about. You have to take responsibility for your so-called wrong thoughts, the things that you want to share. Again, we're not talking about the extremes. We can use common sense, right? The things that you want to put forward that go against the grain a little bit. In that meeting, the things that you didn't say before, are you willing to take responsibility for them now? That conversation you need to have with your partner, with your children, are you willing to take responsibility for it now? So all of these three are anchor points for a reason. And where what we're talking about now sort of falls into it, the responsibility,

I want to tap into it a little bit more because it reminds me of that thing you were saying around the void. I write about something called embodied values and desired values, and it ties into the honesty piece. If you were to ask most people what they value, honesty will absolutely be one of them. Honesty, transparency, freedom, communication, community, friendship, deep relationships. There's so many things that if you really give someone the space and time, they'll be able to make a list. But something that I always say, and I invite you to do this now as you're listening, even write down maybe three or four, then look at the results in your life. Just take a moment to think about the results in your life in terms of a moment to think about the results in your life

in terms of your work, your relationships, how deeply you can communicate with people, how truly open you can be. Are you as open-minded as you think you are? Okay, let's look at the results in your life. Where is there evidence? We're looking for evidence. What is the evidence suggesting? Because for a lot of us, the values that we would list are not actually as embodied as we like to think. They're more desired. I wish I was that person. I wish I was more open-minded. I wish I was more honest. So maybe you're able to be open-minded and honest, but not in as many areas as the evidence actually shows. And I think that's a very cool exercise that I put forward and invite people to always come back

to. I do it all the time because I want to be shown what is true and what am I sort of making up so I can have this perception and self-image that feels good and comfortable. Do I really value open-mindedness? Or the moment someone shows a different worldview, I shut them down immediately. I start to question who they are as a person. I don't even ask further questions to actually make sure that the assumptions that I'm making are accurate, you know? So I like doing that little exercise of embodied values versus desired, because I think it can get us being more honest and also allow for us to have more effective conversations and general interactions offline and online. Yeah, I love that. What a lovely exercise. Can I ask you a question?

Of course. What are your values? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event,

I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour and I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn

new behaviours into long-term habits and improve our relationships. There are of course many different ways to journal and as with most things it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me

how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. As things stand today, my three most important values are curiosity compassion and integrity yeah having said that

i've been doing a lot of writing over the past few months and my current belief is that the value which is the highest of them all is curiosity. Because I think if you really value curiosity, you embody curiosity, you start to interact with everything in your life, external or internal, with curiosity, I kind of think compassion and integrity come along as a natural side effect of that. Yeah, that's even better because I like to know the why. And as you were speaking, something came to mind around how I think sometimes we confuse suspicion for curiosity. I think sometimes we think we're being curious, but actually we're listening with a very suspicious ear. And I write about this actually, when I talk about the listening styles, where some people kind

of are more analytical in how they listen. And some people sort of listen out for words that tie to feelings. So they kind of listen with a more feeling ear, if you will. But I think, and this is just coming to my now. So thank you for igniting this thought. I think a lot of us would say that we're curious, but actually we're more suspicious. And I think the culture that we've started to create online, offline speaks to that, that we've become a little bit sort of, we're scanning for offense, we're scanning for malicious intent. Whereas I think curiosity is more open. Even if you're uncomfortable and you feel challenged,

you sort of lean in energetically instead of pulling away. But I wonder if we confuse the two. It's nice. I've never heard that before. I really like that. I think I can see how that would be the case sometimes. We mistake curiosity for suspicion. And, you know, when I think of curiosity, and I know I say this often on the show, but this is because it's been such a transformative way of looking at people and the world for me.

And I think it very much speaks to your work. And I haven't heard it. And I haven't heard it. And you haven't heard it. If I was that person, I'd be doing exactly the same thing as them. That's good. And if you haven't heard that before, what I mean by that is if I was that person with their upbringing, with their childhood, with the bullying they had, with the friends they had, with the parents they had, et cetera, et cetera, I would absolutely be doing what they're doing and see the world in the same way as they are. Intentionally choosing to adopt that approach

has been transformative because suddenly when you do see someone with a completely different view to you, the default response when you've done someone with a completely different view to you, the default response when you've done it enough times doesn't become, I can't believe you said that. It's like, oh, I wonder why they believe that. Yes. Which I think very much speaks to what you're trying to say. This third perspective. Why does that person believe that?

Wow. What must have gone on in their life? And I will include stuff like racism in here. If someone was being really racist, my first thing now, look, if I was in danger, of course, that would be, you know, fear would come in and I would do what I need to do to keep myself safe. But actually I'm inquisitive as to why, you know, if I grew up like that person with the beliefs they had and maybe what their parents told them as kids i may also think what they're thinking now that doesn't mean i uh accept it it doesn't mean that i think that that is the correct um behavior or the or the the right things to say

yes but i think if you first start off with curiosity and understand, then you're much better placed to then actually enact change. it felt like a perfect description of empathy, which is, I think is exactly what we're talking about. And it reminded me of something that I say all the time and will never stop saying it. I'm sure it's in the book quite a lot. Understanding does not mean agreement. I think we need to understand that. And that's usually a point of relief to my audience and clients and the people in my life, even to myself, because I think we really believe if I understand this person, that means that I agree with everything they've ever done and everything they've ever said and anything they will do or say. But please, understanding does not mean agreement. We can be empathetic and have our boundaries. Yeah.

It's that thing, right? We think there are two options, right? Yeah. I mean, you talk about this idea of holding multiple truths. Yes. And I've heard you talk about your father before. Yes. And if you don't mind elaborating, I think that's a really beautiful example

to help us really see that two things can be true. Yes. And I really love when I get to talk about him and to revisit my experience because the older that I get, he died when he was 40 years old. 40. 40 years old.

And I'm 31 now. So I'm getting closer and closer and closer to the age that he was when he died, which means that I just connect with Maxwell, the person so differently from I just connect with Maxwell, the person, so differently from him just being my dad, this person that I grew up with, this person that I experienced in one way, but by the time he died, it was another way. So my story and experience with my father, which I also write about, is that he was an addict. He was an addict in the later years of his life. He

had a very, very bad alcohol problem and the decline was very swift. But the other side of him, he was a teacher in Zimbabwe. That's where I was born and raised. He was a teacher and he was one of the best dressed men that I've ever seen in my entire life and so charming and so polite and so thoughtful you know that's why he loved teaching because he was so patient in many ways um which was a direct contradiction to the person that he then became so we lived in a house where there was so much uncertainty in terms of physical safety because you didn't know what mood or state my father would be in are we going to be punished for something today or is he going to come home and give us pieces of paper to draw because he wants to see our art but then the next day he

realizes oh he gave us um his work documents so now there's drawings all over his work documents and we're going to be beaten and punished for it. So there was a big sort of juxtaposition from day to day. I bring that up because when I really sat with my life story through the lens of sobriety, I've been sober now for eight years. Congratulations. Thank you. Nine this year, Thank you. Nine this year. Which is insane. I never thought I'd be able to say those words ever. And I really learned and looking at my story through an honest eye, also not romanticizing the reality of living in that environment. I realized that everything that I speak about today was never random or accidental. Growing up, me and my siblings, and we speak

about this to this day, I have two older sisters, one younger brother, and we have these conversations around, we're so open to the truth of the world because we had to do it in our home. We had to hold two realities where our father was just the most brilliant man. And he could also be extremely abusive. And he was also evil in my eyes for a very long time. But he was also all of these things. And now I speak to his siblings, those who are still alive. I speak to people that grew up with him when he was a boy.

I speak to my mom and she tells stories about how they met when she was 19 and he was 20. When they used to go to Bob Marley concerts in Harare, when he would come in the 70s. So I get to humanize him again. I get to humanize him and remember that he wasn't always this one dimensional person that I got to know in the later years of his life. dimensional person that I got to know in the later years of his life. And as I was becoming a preteen, you know, so I think that thing that I'm saying of understanding does not mean agreement. I understand my father. I understand his path to addiction. I understand that he was in a Zimbabwe that declined so quickly. And from one moment to to the next he no longer had a job he could

no longer provide in the way that he wanted to there was so much shame around being a man and not being able to provide there was so much resentment towards my mother that she still had a job and a good job at the time so she had to be the provider there's so much context that i have now and i understand and i love him and I don't agree with his behavior and what he did. So everything that I say now, even the thing around having empathy for someone or for a situation or for a group of people and still have your boundaries and still have your internal boundaries. Say, I understand you, but this is what I'm choosing as my conviction. These are my values so that's that's where that um story fits in and I I go on in the book to talk about how I then ended up replicating my father's story in so many ways out of all my siblings it was me that

ended up replicating his life story and I had to learn what it looks like to hold myself as a contradictory being you know um so yeah that's sort of the link that leads me to exploring this work yeah first of all thank you for sharing so much about your father thank you um what you just said there that you had to be able to hold yourself as a contradictory being. There's something about that. As I hear that, I think about perfectionism. I think about the conversations I've had on this show before with people who have studied perfectionism and that it is rapidly on the rise, not just since the social media race. The research suggests that it's been on the rise since the 1980s, which I find really, really interesting because I would have thought it would have massively increased because of social media. But the research I've seen,

or certainly the research I've been exposed to, suggests it's been going up steadily since the 1980s. But why I think about that in relation to what you just said is because if we as a society have more perfectionistic tendencies we're going to struggle to hold those two truths about ourselves because we either need to be all good or all bad we either need to be honest or dishonest well maybe we're honest in certain settings and we're dishonest in other settings. Like I've always found that, this idea that we have everything within us, really, really fascinating.

I spoke to Robert Green a couple of years ago on the show. And he's brilliant. Yeah, he's wonderful. And I relayed to him the conversation I had with Matthew McConaughey on this podcast many years ago now. And I never forgot this idea, what Matthew said to me. Matthew, as if I know him. You know, I spoke to him on the show. I won't call him a friend.

You could have said Matt. Matt, yeah. So I said Matthew, exactly. said Matthew I exactly but he you know I had always assumed that when you are acting and you get a new role you have to get into character you have to imagine how would that person act and speak and he said no no when I'm being offered a new role or when I'm preparing for that role I have to find where that person exists within me it was honestly I always think about that because I think wow we've got everything within us we just don't like to acknowledge that it speaks to honesty in fact have you seen that film The Zone of Interest yes I think this speaks to what you're saying.

Gabor Mati told me a few weeks ago to watch it when he was in London. He said, Ron, you've got to watch this. Just one of the most remarkable things I've ever seen. You know, that the guy living next door to Auschwitz in charge of the mechanics of all the murders. But when he comes home, he's the most loving dad.

Sits there, plays with his daughter, patient with her, goes canoeing with his kids at the weekend, showing them a really great time. Loves animals, the relationship he has with his horse if anyone who's listening to this has not seen the zone of interest you gotta watch it please do rongan i i want to watch it three times i want to watch it three times because i don't know that i've ever seen a piece of art that really shows you the importance of not only you the audience member holding multiple truths about the characters that you're witnessing but it was a demonstration in people that were holding multiple realities quite tangibly yeah and the sort of um the sort of message of morality

in there as well and the sort of human shadow and the, again, the relationship of the lead character with his animals and yet still doing something that is so, ah, thank you for bringing that up. Because I think, you know, something that I think all the time, I just think we need to have a bigger, even bigger appreciation for art and artistic expression. It's now more than ever, because I think art can speak to the things that sometimes we're not able to understand

in this overly intellectualized abstract way. But the thing is, there's so many artists that message me probably every single day, really high level, hyper famous people and people that are just starting out that are censoring themselves. That feel as if they can't put their script out into the world because they're a white person and they've written a black character. People that think they're going to be ripped to shreds because what they have to say might be deemed problematic two years on. And well, let's just be clear on that they may be ripped

to shreds yes but i guess your message is is yes you may be ripped to shreds but you should do it oh anyway absolutely absolutely art it's another place that i'm very interested in because i think throughout history they've always been we've always protected artists and again i'm not talking about the extremes we can apply sort of sort of the gems of common sense that have been shared through this conversation. But I think we've always seen artists as people that absolutely need to express themselves through times of war, through times of adversity, through times of when as people, we don't really have a language to articulate what is happening in the culture or around us. We need people that can stand for joy,

people that stand for freedom, people that stand for expression and courage and bravery and escaping in a way that is healthy. But when you start to have artists being so afraid of sharing a really non-controversial piece of art and everything becomes the same that's why a movie like zone of interest really stands out when was the last time we saw something so brave yeah it was remarkable right i mean when artists are not allowed to share their art that is

probably one of the signs of a sick society right but we can't really have that it reminds me of rick rub, the legendary record producer. Yeah, the book The Creator Act is wonderful. And he said it to me when he came on the show. He said, insecurity is only a hindrance when it stops you sharing something inside your heart. And I thought about that this morning because I thought about your work and what you're essentially saying, or one of the things you're saying, the way I hear it, is that you have to be able to express yourself. The person who you are is worthy of expression.

The people around you are not going to truly know you if you hide yourself from them. Yes, it's what you said too in a different way, which is why I love that with all of this, even just shifting the language still speaks to the same thing of not being over attached to the response of other people to the point where you adjust your speech, change your art, change an entire book

just in case people push back. You have to be willing. I think of it as emotional risks. You're going to experience so many different emotions and feelings before you do something courageous and brave. I think we have this idea that when you're doing something courageous, it's going to feel good. It's going to feel good. You're going to feel that exhilaration and you're going to move towards it. But a lot of the time, you only get those feelings after you do the courageous thing,

after you do the brave thing. But we think we need to feel it first before we do it. To me, a lot of this is about not assuming what will happen. Don't assume that there's going to be pushback. There might be. Create a reality where there might be, but why does that have to be the default? Yeah.

One of my favorite quotes in your book, and there are many, is in the third section. So first section on awareness, second section on responsibility, third section so first section on awareness second section on responsibility third section on expression yeah what are you prepared to risk to remain faithful to yourself yeah that's it in a nutshell really isn't it that's you could really put it all into that quote like what are you prepared to risk to remain faithful to yourself and if we think about the

regrets of the dying clearly for many people they end up in a position where they were not prepared to risk anything to remain faithful to themselves hence they have those regrets on their deathbed right ah you know what one thing that I was prepared to risk, quite a few things, actually, I realized that I was really okay with risking this, especially being in the unique position we've spoken about, someone that shares publicly, and someone that has built a community and a platform and a reputation. A lot of this is about reputation. We don't want to lose our reputation. I was willing to risk popularity. I had to be so honest about the fact that when I was self-censoring and agreeing with things that I didn't actually agree with,

I was prioritizing popularity over truth. I really, again, I had this idea and this story that I'm a truthful, open-minded person. But the results in my life, remember earlier when I was saying, just look at the results in your life through an honest lens, not through sort of fantasy, the idea of the fantasy self. Just look at what is, not what you want it to be. My results showed me that I couldn't even be myself with my audience. I'd put myself in a golden cage. I'd created an audience that was never going to allow me to change my mind. So I needed to get on stage and perform. No one else would have been able to tell because I was still saying things that are brave, things that are still open, but I know myself enough to know that this was not remotely aligned to what my values were and my actual behavior. I was in that void that you're speaking

of, getting on stage and performing. So for me, I had to be very honest about the fact that if I want to be free, the risk that I'm willing to take is I'm willing to lose the popularity. I'm willing to lose clients that think maybe they're not aligned anymore. I'm okay with that. I have to be okay with that. And losing clients means financial loss in some way. But I trusted myself enough to know that, you know what, I will always be okay. I was willing to lose an audience that needed me to perform a certain version of myself. I was willing to lose misaligned relationships. And you know what the beautiful thing is? I never had to lose anything. I didn't lose any friends. And if I did, it might have happened so silently that I didn't even notice that there were people that maybe I knew had association with, but not close enough for me to feel any change. I gained so much an

audience that understood my multidimensional nature, that they don't expect me to be a singular being, that where they meet me, whatever post they find or podcast they find is going to be that Africa that I promised to be. No, they know that things will change. I explore things out loud. I grow, I shift, I focus on different things at a time. Just the freedom that I gave to myself. But there was so much discomfort, initial discomfort for a little while that came with me being like, okay, I'm willing to risk these things. And I know the examples I've just given can feel like they're just for people that are in the public, people

that are hyper visible, but that's not the case. And in the book, I make that very clear. I put forward this thing that I call a risk assessment framework, where you get to be very clear on what it is you're willing to risk in your everyday life, because I think our risk levels will be so different. Some people can tolerate more than others. Some people can tolerate the loss of popularity and an audience and clients and financial loss. Some people, they can't do all of that at the same time. And I get that. That's why you get to define it for yourself. but if you're not willing to lose anything then you will stay in the golden cage you will to play devil's advocate then

and i guess you've covered a little bit of it just there but if someone's hearing you and going okay africa well you were prepared to risk popularity and clients yeah and maybe financial rewards maybe you were in a position to be able to risk those things I can't where I am in life at the moment I need to keep my mouth shut I need not to express my opinions because it's it could risk me my job or my relationship or whatever. You know, we don't know the ins and outs of people's lives. Absolutely. Right.

So for that person who's skeptical and going, I get what you're saying, but it doesn't apply to me. Can you make the case as to why it might apply to them? Hmm. Hmm. The first thing that I would invite the person to do is to notice that they've just used a lot of absolutist binary language. This idea that if I do this, then this is going to happen full stop. If I speak and say what I really want to say, this is going to happen. So they're being very absolutist in it, right? Not even that there's a possibility might happen if I say this thing on Instagram versus actually having a private conversation that there's no nuance. It's been put forward in a very absolutist way. Good for you. I can't because of this. So that's something that I would just gently bring awareness to because the language that we

use when we speak about the thing we're experiencing or the decision that we want to make it either allows for you to see some options available to you even one little option tucked away there in the corner or to see no option at all I would say first I always want to know with people what is the thing that you want to say that you think if you say it right because sometimes when you ask people and they tell you, then you're like, surely. That's a really good point. Right?

We made these things so big. I will lose my home. I'll lose my children. I'll lose everything. I always ask people when I work with them and even my audience, what is this thing that you want to say? You know, and sometimes, you know, what's interesting, people don't really know what it is that you want to say? And sometimes, you know what's interesting? People don't really

know what it is that they want to say because they're sort of thinking about all of the different moments in which they didn't speak up and sort of putting that all into this into one go. That's actually usually the common story. But then I would also think, okay, maybe you're thinking that you need to do this online, which I promise you a lot of people are starting to think that it means you have to share it online to declare that you've unraveled self-censorship and you're speaking up and you're standing up that it needs to happen online. It's why I stress in the book, and I hope this can be a point of relief, online should not be your first training ground, your interpersonal relationships. So that thing that you want to say and you think, but if I say this, I'll lose my job. You're thinking that you need to walk into the office, stand on the reception desk and say, I have something to say. No, that's not what we're saying. And I use humor a lot of the time

because I think it kind of makes you realize, huh, okay, I guess I sort of created this story. But then I can also think, is there maybe a private conversation you can have? Surely there's even one person in your office that you can start to say, hey, I've been thinking about this thing. Well, something doesn't feel quite right about this. Do you have an online community? feel quite right about this? Do you have an online community? Even engaging with comments on certain videos, and I'm not talking Instagram comments or anything, but even podcasts. There's

so many wise shares that people put, you know, people share their stories. Could it be helpful for you to engage with other people's stories? So you see what kind of everyone's thinking is, so you don't feel so alone. Could you talk with your partner? I think we shut out all of the other options, all of the other people we can speak with, you know, and come to this conclusion of good for you. If I do this, then this will happen. What have you tried? Yeah. One of the things I love the most about your book is there's lots of really, really good practical exercises. So for anyone who's interested or they think, you know, I heard something where I think, yeah, I think I self-censor. I don't feel as though I'm somebody who has the courage

to say what I think in many different settings. So I keep quiet and I'm thinking about it when I'm in bed at night. Well, you have lots of beautiful exercises. One of them is about, as you just mentioned, practicing with a friend or someone who's trusted. I thought that was such a, it's so simple. It's so obvious after you've read it. But until you've read it, it's not obvious. You could go to your partner and say, hey, listen, I struggle to speak up at work. Can we just practice for the next half hour? Can we go through, let's choose a topic where we've got, and it's one of your exercises, got different views. And I just want to practice how it might be to put forward my view. Yes.

I think, I mean, it's such a simple but beautiful exercise to do, isn't it? Thank you. Oh, I'm so glad exercises like that stood out. And you're so right. This book, I wanted to make sure that it's not a memoir that it's not a rant on what's happening culturally people just need to speak up there's it's much more nuance than that and I wanted to make sure that it's not a one-size-fits-all you should do this and then you should do this I want you to have a little thing can I make it so

fun so I find role-playing to be just a really fun and revealing exercise because you get to see yourself speaking in a way that you wouldn't normally speak. But I think sometimes we think we need to wait for these profound mammoth moments where we can practice courage. But what if you're just doing it while you're waiting for the kettle to boil? You say, by the way, there's this thing that I read. Can we just practice this for a moment? There's a conversation I want to have. Can you and I have a little riff out loud?

There's so many little things we can do. And I want everything to be manageable. Because what I find when we're having these big conversations around expression or health or self-censorship or the art of speaking, when you're inspired and motivated, you're good to go. But then the next minute you have to go and pick up the kids. You have to do the washing. You have so many things to do. You have to go to work and then you put it to the side. And then it starts to feel very overwhelming because where do you even begin? So I like to give the big stuff even in conversation but it also needs to be tethered to the reality of people's lives so i like those

little micro moments and kind of little micro exercises we can do in conversation yeah it's um they're really great those practical exercises and i mean there's a few in there which i'm definitely going to spend a bit of time on because i just they're really they really get you thinking you think and you're very open say this one's actually going to take you probably 30 to 40 minutes right it ain't a quick five minute one and that's okay because then you can make sure you've got that time and go okay exactly you know and i think a lot of them, many of them speak to this idea about our fictional values and our actual values, right? You know, you said it much more eloquently than that. No, but that's it.

You know, where we bluff ourselves. Yeah. We do bluff ourselves all the time. We kid ourselves about who we really are without actually looking at it going, actually, you know what? I didn't really show up in that way i'm a huge fan of little daily reflections personally like two questions i've often encouraged my patients to ask themselves over the years in the evening is what went well today and what can i do differently tomorrow oh i love that it's so simple but they're a very they're a very simple way of asking yourself where you might be able to improve

in a way I think that's compassionate and non-judgmental yes it's not beating yourself up it's going you know what you know I said I was going to prize my health this week, but I ended up having a takeaway on the way home. Okay, why did that happen? Oh, you know what? I didn't take a break at lunch. I was knackered. I was exhausted. I just couldn't face it.

Okay, cool. So you were stressed and that was your thing to manage the stress. Okay, let's be honest about it. Let's just not pretend you were a bad person for doing it. You weren't a bad person. You needed a way of managing stress. Fine. So tomorrow, can you do something differently in your day, which will mean in the evening, you don't feel the need to go and have an unhealthy

takeaway. Yes. You know, it's the same kind of message, really, isn't it? Yeah. I really appreciate hearing that because you're so right. This is not about beating yourself up based on what's revealed to you. And I think sometimes we naturally have a tendency to do that. But I think a lot of us think in order to do the very deep, rewarding work, that we need to kind of really shame our past selves, the versions of us that had it so wrong, the versions of us that didn't have the information, which is why I love the idea. I think, have you read The Untethered

Soul? I have. Oh, it's one of my favorite books. One of my favorite books. Michael Singer, isn't it? He's absolutely brilliant. That book was another book that allowed for me to just start thinking differently and showed me that I can be the observer. I don't have to take every single thought as fact, every single discomfort or fear or resistance. I don't have to believe it and make it mean this is who I am full stop. So if anything is revealed to you through either the questions that I have in the book or even the questions of what didn't go so well, it's not an opportunity to chastise yourself it's just like huh isn't that interesting okay so what can we do differently if you realize that you self-censor more than you thought get so curious and excited about that because now you

know something you didn't you can do something you didn't know you could do on that topic then if we look back at your 10-year period where you struggled with alcohol yeah which you've spoken openly about on many occasions in many podcasts i know we haven't gone into a huge amount of detail on that today as a 31 year now, I'd love to know how you look back on that time in your life. You know, I was just speaking about this yesterday with a friend who is also on their sober journey. And I was saying that I think because of this thing of holding multiple truths, something that I didn't have language for up until six years ago, to be able to say that simply. It's actually something that I've always had because when I started sharing my story, even publicly, I was always able to acknowledge the addiction. I was always able to acknowledge the things that came with it, that I write about the compulsive lying, the promiscuity, the kleptomania. Kleptomania

was an interesting one because it didn't even have to be anything big that I would just take or steal. I was trying to regain control because I'd lived in such an environment where I had no control whatsoever. So it would feel like taking something gave me that sense of control. And it completely stopped when I was probably 17. But it was something that was very much a part of my story, especially when I was drinking in the way that I did. So there were so many things and so much more. There were so many things that I was able to own up to and not hide in the shadows and say, actually, I did this. This is the person that I was. to own up to and not hide in the shadows and say, actually, I did this, this is the person that I was. But also, without that version of Africa, I wouldn't have realized just how creative I am. I only felt able and comfortable to express myself when I was drunk

or when I was high, because I felt so afraid of sort of being seen. So I would only really allow myself to be seen if I was under the influence. And I thank that version of Africa that was in such destruction because she was able to really go out there and allow for her talents to be seen. Sure, she went about it the wrong way. We can look at it now and say it was the wrong way.

But she showed me this sort of wild, expressive nature, someone who didn't care, someone and not didn't care in the way of disregarding people, but just didn't have all of these stories. And when I got sober, I realized that those things were within me anyway. I was giving alcohol all the credit, but she was that person anyway. She just thought she needed that. But I could have never known that if I didn't walk that very specific path. I would never have known the importance of being a reliable person if I hadn't gone through a phase of being so unreliable that people walked away from me. I would have never known the importance of community if I hadn't had people hold me in early recovery and to be in the rooms and tell me that I wasn't a bad person because of that decade.

So I look at so many things through such a loving and honest eye, you know, and also wrong. And I had so much fun i think the reason why i don't miss the reason why i don't miss drinking or any of that is because i i did it i don't have to do it again i could be in a different environment but i'm not going to get anything new um so i just i adore that girl she got so many things wrong but it's fine because we've fixed it now and again it's the thing of understanding not agreement I don't agree with a lot of her behaviors but I completely understand yeah oh I absolutely love her yeah yeah I love that thank you for sharing that that's that's I think that's awesome because I don't think it's helpful for any of us to look back on our past whatever we might have done with guilt or shame, or dare I say it, even regret.

Yes. And I think that regret is a form of perfectionism. I really do believe that more and more. I know everyone may not share that view, but to me, the way I see regrets, which has a negative tinge to it, I wish I'd, you know, I should have been able to act differently. I should have known. Well, differently. I should have known. Well, no, I didn't know. I was doing the best I could. I did the best I could. Then you,

you know, 14 year old Africa was doing the best that she could to navigate the world. Sure, you know better now, but you didn't back then. And I think that perfectionism, that belief that we could have done better, I just think it's really harmful because A, it's been and gone. There's no point living your life in the past thinking I should have done differently. You didn't do differently. All you got is now it's like, oh, you know what? There's plenty of things I've done in my life that if I came across those situations now, I would do differently. I would do differently, but I don't regret what life that if I came across those situations now, I would do differently. Yes. I would do differently. Yes.

But I don't regret what I did. No. Because I wouldn't have learned what I now know had I not done them, which is kind of what you're saying. Exactly. It reminds me of when people ask me sometimes, they might say, so Africa, if you were to go back to that time in your life

and sort of give advice to your younger self, and I really do laugh every time because I'm like, do you think she would have listened? Do you think that if I go back to the past and try and impart some words, she wouldn't have listened? It wasn't, that wasn't her season. That wasn't her message. That wasn't her timeline, you know? message that wasn't her timeline you know and I

think it's nice to have this idea that I can go back and sit next to younger me and I say you don't have to do this and she's like you know what lady you're right no no no and it's it's it's okay that was her that was her part do you know I hear hear though, as a parent, when I hear that? Yeah. I have so much conflict going into my head because I know the most important things I've learned in life have come from discomfort. They've come from heartache. They've come from, you know,

unpleasant things happening, let's say. And then I look at my kids and I want to protect them from all that, even though I know that actually that's where you gain your wisdom. And I know that's, and also I need to learn to let go a bit and go, you know what? It's their life and they will go on their journey. All I can try and do is ground them and provide a safe and a secure yeah an upbringing for them as I possibly can as my wife possibly can together but it also just I guess it humbles me to know you know the kids are getting older and at some point they're gonna come on their journey do you know what I mean how

was it for your mum when you were doing all this oh oh that's such's such a brilliant question. No one has ever asked me that before. No one has ever asked me that question before. For my mum, it was very difficult because in our culture, there's so much conflict avoidance. You just don't speak about certain things. And I have a feeling that's very similar to your culture too, where some things could be very obvious, especially things like alcoholism. It's never, it is so starkingly obvious. You have that uncle, you have that whatever, you see it, but you don't talk about it. And something that was always the case, especially growing up in a Christian household, is that you're prayed away. You're not told directly, but that is what you do. You pray it away or you go to church or you see someone privately in church. There's no AA, there's no

recovery rooms, there's nothing like that. So it was very difficult for my mom to address my problem because I was replicating my father's journey. So to her, and we can speak about it now which is so beautiful because through my healing we've been able to heal as a family which has been huge now she can tell me that it was very difficult for her to even know how to approach me with it because she was seeing her husband she was seeing the man that she had known since she was a teenager and what he had become. And now she was seeing her 14, 19, 20, 21 year old daughter go through the exact same thing, but would never had the language in our family to talk about it ever. And she wasn't a confrontational person, but it would come through through passive aggressiveness, silent treatment, not really talking to me maybe

for a couple of days or me not speaking to her. And then we sort of click back into it. And then the cycle repeats and repeats and repeats. Apart from the one time where she told me, and I understood why she had to tell me this. She told me that she could see Maxwell, my dad, that I'm exactly like Maxwell. And she didn't say it in an aggressive rageful way she was just saying what she can see she was so heartbroken I think I hadn't been home for maybe a week and hadn't told her about it um and she had to open the door for me at four in the morning and didn't ask any questions but she told me that I was exactly like my father and I didn't push

back I knew because I'd seen it, you know? And that's actually one moment that sticks in my mind as a moment of recognition that something is very, very wrong, that I'm not able to drink like most people, that there's something that happens to me that doesn't happen to everyone else. Not everyone blacks out for up to six hours

every time that they drink. Not everyone has to spend the next few days trying to piece together what they did three nights ago. So for my mother, I realize now through so much conversation, the very same but different techniques that I bring up in this book is the exact same conversations I've needed to have with my family. Deep questioning,

humanizing my mother, realizing that she's Jennifer. She wasn't born to be my mom, you know, and realizing, oh my goodness, she's had to deal with this in a different timeline. And now she has to deal with it with her daughter. I get why there were things she couldn't say, you know, but thank you. No one has ever asked me that question. So thank you. I mean, thank you for sharing that. I then reflect on what we've just been talking about, which is through our lens or your lens, right that 10-year period was great for you in so many ways because of this but what did it do to your mum what it gosh yeah and how many of the tools in your new book might have been useful i guess for your. Because she didn't have a language to navigate it. She's seeing her darling daughter

get smashed all the time, disappear. You know, I mean, I literally cannot imagine if that was one of my kids, right? And a girl. And a girl. Young girl in London. Yeah. So it's just interesting to think about that

as what that might have been. You mentioned culture. Just over a year ago, I shared a reel that I know you saw because you commented on it. I had this wonderful conversation with someone called Bach and Mosquita. And then I shared with her, we were talking about cultural differences. And she talks about I-cultures and we-cultures. I-cultures which are very me-focused, about I cultures and we cultures. I cultures, which are very me focused,

but a lot of we cultures that exist around the world where you are a reflection of your family. You are a reflection of the community. You know, the way they look at things, the way they articulate things. And in that conversation, I shared with her that when I was at university, if I ever came back home to the Northwest of England, I was at university in Edinburgh,

having enjoyed a bit too much of the good life, let's say, my mum would have no qualms about saying, what have you been doing? You look fat at the moment. Now, she might have said that in Bengali, her words might have been different. But we put that out as a reel on Instagram to say, We put that out as a reel on Instagram to say, I know that my mum meant nothing offensive by that. She genuinely, and to this day, I still believe this is the case, genuinely thought he's not looking after himself. I better tell him.

And it actually worked. It did something. I was like, oh, yeah, mum's right, actually. Right. You know, we put it out on Instagram. And the comments were so fascinating. And I think in many ways, they speak to what you're trying to get out there. So some people were saying, thank you.

Other people were, you know, just going at me saying, Dr. Shadi, I'm highly surprised that you think that is ever okay in any situation. And some people were saying, well, that's abuse. I thought that's remarkable to be able to call someone else's parent an abuser from a 60 second Instagram reel. I think it's kind of, it's like, I do find it interesting to observe what happens. Now, to be really clear, I respect everyone's right to have a different view on that. To some people, they think it's never, ever okay to comment on someone

else's appearance. And I respect their viewpoint. All I can say is in my family, in my parents' families, the way I was brought up, what I saw around me, there would be a directness around things like this. I do not consider it was traumatizing for me. I do not consider it was body shaming me. Personally, I do also appreciate that in some families, those same words could be uttered and it could be derogatory. It could be body shaming. It could be traumatic. There are multiple truths to those same words, right? What's your perspective on that? That's a big one. That's a big one. And it ties into the conversation that I have in the book around context collapse. And feel free to push back if you disagree with me, by the way.

I 100% would. But the reason why that is something that I can, again, understand, even if I don't agree with it, is because of the culture that I'm from. So I'm from Zimbabwe, the Shona tribe, that's in Southern Africa, it's right next to South Africa. We communicate in very different ways, even in just the same country. You have the Ndebele, which is a different tribe, whereas Ndebele people are probably a little bit more direct and a little bit kind of more clear, similar to sort of what you're talking about right there. They're kind of a little bit similar to West Africans in terms of how very direct in language they are. Then with the Shona people, which is where I'm from,

we're a little bit more reserved, kind of more on the reserved side of things. So we might express certain things through humor instead of just a more direct way. So we kind of talk around things, but still say them in a sort of wrapped in humor. Why am I saying that? I'm just trying to show how even in the same country, we approach communication in very different ways. So I can immediately understand that being an immigrant, having people in my family who might come over from Zimbabwe for a little while and we're all having a conversation and they say something that I'm like, oh, my auntie, you can't say that. You know, I don't kind of laugh, but I'm like, that would not fly.

I know what that feels like, right? I get it laugh but I'm like you can't that would not fly I know what that feels like right I get it so I'm able to hold it and then I realize how much I have been more embedded in this western culture because then I can hear that very differently to how other people in my family might hear it you know what I mean it's mean? So I completely get it. And ties into the thing that I speak about around context collapse. So if you're listening to this, please have a little search and exploration on exactly what it is, the intricacies of it. But essentially, there was a time when you could share something on social media, and it might be limited to your friends, friends that you've said, okay, friend this person, I know them, friend this person.

And you could trust that the thing that you want to share, a post, an opinion, whatever it might be, that it's only reaching people that you've sort of grown up with, people you went to school with, they probably live in Britain, in the UK in some way, maybe they live in Manchester, most of them.

Now, all of that is out of the window. You, again, let's zoom it back in and someone with maybe 50 followers or 100 or whatever, still your people that you've grown up with. But when you share this thing, it could land on the phone of someone who's in Mozambique. Yeah. And they will respond as if you are in the same country as them, which is exactly what's starting to happen. The global village.

Man. And we respond as if we're responding to someone who is in the same country as us, has the same cultural context, has the same understanding. So that comment section you're talking about from the reel that you shared, it's just a perfect example of that. And you have a global audience audience so everyone's responding to it very differently some might laugh and be like oh my goodness that's my that's my totally and i get it i'm not saying anyone is wrong everyone's entitled to their viewpoints and some people will say yeah your mom shouldn't have spoke to you like that yeah now look i could be completely deceiving myself and go actually i was so accustomed to it that I dealt with it. Yeah,

I can acknowledge that that's a possibility. I would like to think I'm pretty self-aware. And this, more than anything, speaks to your work, I think. I am not going to agree with you just because it's the mainstream narrative. I'm not going to do that because it would be betraying myself. It would be betraying the culture in which I was brought up. If you think no one should ever comment on someone's appearance, I respect that. I personally will not comment on someone's appearance. I was born and brought up in the UK. Yes, I had an Indian family. Mom and dad were born and brought up in India. So I wouldn't choose to, but I completely understand my mother's desire to do that. And I'm thankful that she did.

Yes. And you get to, you know what, I think this sort of comes to, and I think everyone will be able to take something from this. You get to have your subjective experience. And I think that's a big part of sort of what we're seeing here where people feel shame and guilt for having and owning their subjective experience. Then on the other side of that, we have to look out for where we are wanting, even on some level,

someone else to mold their subjective experience so we can feel safe. I think that's it. Yeah. And again, I don't want to ever intentionally offend anyone. I really don't. I don't want to upset anyone. And I completely understand if you have been body shamed or your father or mother said to you that you were fat and you knew what that meant. I get it. When you hear that in another country, you're like, no, I know what that is. I've had that before.

But nonetheless, there are multiple truths. Yeah, always. Right? Always. Yeah. The final thing I wanted to ask you, Africa, you mentioned young people before. I want you to define what you mean by young people, because to me, you are a young person. It's all relative, isn't it?

It's all relative. So I'm a father, okay? My son is 13, my daughter is 11. I appreciate you're not a parent. You've written this brilliant book, The Third Perspective. Yeah. In your opinion, what is it from this book I should be teaching my children? Oh, that's good. Okay. Give me a moment to think about this.

I can answer it from the place of something that would have been useful for me as a child. And even though I'm not a parent, I have a very, very big family. So I interact quite a lot with six-year-olds, teenagers, 18-year-olds and all the in-between. six-year-olds, teenagers, 18-year-olds, and all the in-between. And I think because of my story and what I've experienced, and anyone who's around me, my family is very much aware of it. There isn't any separation between the stories that I tell publicly and the ownership and the nuances that they don't know, which means that the young people in my family and in my life feel so safe sharing with me and showing me all of who they are. As a young person, even though I said that if I was to go back, you know, sort of future African, I had some wisdom to impart.

The thing that would have actually been useful instead of whatever message would have come through then is being told quite early on that I get to be all the different things. And very specifically, I mean, I was applauded at times when I was good. Oh, now you're being good. That's a good way to do it. Oh, you got good grades or you did this. Only recognized really when I did something good in terms of affection and intimacy and emotional connection. And when I did something good in terms of affection and intimacy and emotional connection. And when I did something that was perceived as bad, there was emotional distance. It was highlighted, but in a different way. Something that could have been useful, and I really hope

I'm not just saying this retrospectively, something that could have been useful is in whatever way works for a child or your kids specifically, is to be told that Africa, you are both good and bad. Okay. Sometimes there might be times where maybe I might feel just my own disappointment because I think you should be a certain way, but actually you're all of the things. And I need you to know that. I need you to understand that because that would have set me up. That thing we're talking about, learning to hold contradiction and multiple truths. I don't know that I had to learn that through my father being abusive. I think there could have been another way to learn,

like a more direct, not indirect way. I love that. I think that would be it. Yeah. I really, really like that. And it's funny, it's something my wife and I have been discussing recently. With the kids, it's, I guess it's something me more than my wife, she's always been very honest and open in front of the children. I would say me more so, I think, because of the way I was brought up

and the perfectionist tendencies, frankly, forget tendencies, the perfectionism that I have suffered with for much of my life. I think without my wife, without her input, I would have possibly tried to give off that impression of perfection to my children. And we can explore why that is another time, perhaps.

But I've tried my best not to. And I will continue to try and not do that. Because I don't think it's helpful. They need to know that their parents are also fallible. And that they make mistakes sometimes. Do you think they can also see through it? I think they can. And I think what happens is if you don't explicitly acknowledge it and say it,

I think it's confusing and they make up stories and they make up all kinds of things. And so I think the answer you gave, think it's wonderful and I think it's it lands with me particularly because it's something I'll be thinking about oh I love that I love that and can I add another little thing that just came up as you were speaking too I also wonder if that performance of perfection from a parent when they see you behaving in a way that opposes that, and you haven't owned that, that other, you know, those are the aspects of you. Let's say you have this idea that you don't really get angry. You don't really shout. You like things to be done well. And then they see

you exhibiting a behavior that goes against that, but it's not one that you've owned. I think it can create, create distrust as well. And that void. Because they don't, yeah, because it's like you're pretending. Yeah. But you want me to be perfect in this way, but you're doing this, you know. I think that's another thing too. But yeah, I think just every young person

that I've spoken to, every email, every voice note that I get from teachers or students comes back to this thing of, I just need to know that I can be, I'm not just this one thing. And if I change my mind, it doesn't make me bad. You know, it's, I think it's that. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And, you know, I'd love to go deeper into that on another occasion with you. So I think that's fascinating. To finish off this conversation, Africa, as I mentioned to you, when to you when you knocked on the door this morning, I think your book is really quite wonderful and so, so necessary.

It's giving a language to something that many people intuitively feel, but they don't know what to do about it. So thank you for going dark and going off line for a while to go and write this book I really think it's going to have a massive impact on the world actually I think it's got the potential for that for someone who has listened to this conversation and they're starting to feel yeah you know what i i do self-censor i self-censor quite a lot actually in my personal relationships in my work relationships i also do it online you've you've said so many things today africa where should i start what would you say to them? This might not be the sexiest answer

but it's the most necessary one the only place to start is the awareness phase so I spoke about awareness, responsibility and expression expression is the fun part that's where you really get to play and to kind of test things out and to really go out there and sort of see what you can do with your new refined voice, you know.

But let's really do the beautiful work of awareness. I think that's what you can do now. I have a feeling that even just from this conversation, there's so many doors in your mind that have been opened. But I want you to just hone in on what are you afraid of? Are you afraid of rejection? Are you afraid of social exile? Are you afraid of not getting it wrong? Do you think your voice sounds stupid? Because that's something that I hear a lot. Are you afraid of, just get very specific. Don't write as if anyone else sees it. Because once you look and you really, and it can be a very vulnerable experience, but I think that's a good thing. You need to dump

all of these things that are currently in your mind, these areas of resistance or these worries or fears perceived or actual, just list them down. I think that's a good place to start because if you're not clear on what it is that is currently not working, it's going to be very difficult to create a strategy going forward. So I know that's sort of unsexy work to do and it can feel like, okay, but then what do I do after that? Just start there. Yeah. Start there. I love that. Awareness is the first step. It is. And the most important step. Yes. Yes. Africa, I love what you're doing. I love that you made the journey out to the studio. Keep on bravely expressing yourself. And I hope we get to do this again

at some point in the future. Oh, thank you. This has been hands down one of my favorite conversations. Don't tell the others. It's been incredible. I feel so activated. I've spoken about things

that I just haven't spoken about before. And I think your integrity and your curiosity, which are your top values, they really shine through even from the moment that we embraced and I walked in and you made me ginger tea. You are who you say you are. And I, when I meet people that truly are them, it allows for me to open new doors. And I really got to do that today. And your support means so, so much. So thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think

about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails

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