Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - How To Transform Your Metabolic Health & The Surprising Benefits of Walking with Alan Couzens #617

Episode Date: January 28, 2026

When it comes to improving our health and fitness, most of us have absorbed the same message: work harder, push more, sweat more – basically, that no pain means no gain. But what if that story is not only wrong, what if it is actually holding you back? This week, I sit down with elite endurance coach Alan Couzens to completely reframe how we think about movement, fitness, and fat loss. Alan is both an exercise physiologist and a performance coach. He has spent the past three decades working with a wide range of endurance athletes at all ends of the performance spectrum, from ‘off the couch’ fitness athletes to the very best athletes in all of endurance sport. He shares his incredible wisdom & insights on X and his Substack, ‘The Science of Maximal Athletic Development’ which I would highly recommend if you want to go deeper into the topics we discuss in this week’s episode. Over the past few years, Alan has helped me to understand the critical importance of low intensity movement for health, performance and longevity, and in our conversation, we discuss: Why the ability to burn fat at low intensities is one of the most important markers of true metabolic health Why so many people feel they need to eat every two to three hours How very easy movement  can transform your health, your energy, your mood, and even your performance, often more than the hard workouts you think you “should” be doing The need to balance out the stresses of modern life with activities like walking and yoga The importance of building a big aerobic “engine” How best to think about intensity, strength training, VO₂ max, and muscle mass Why it is never too late to start increasing how much you move and experiencing the incredible benefits Alan is someone who I have a huge amount of respect for. Not only is he extremely knowledgeable and up to date with the latest science, he is also someone who has a huge amount of real-world experience helping people to improve their athletic performance and their health. My hope is that this episode serves as a powerful reminder that the human body simply does not work as well as it could, without adequate amounts of movement and that it inspires you to bring more easy movement into your life, in a way that supports your health for many decades to come   Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com.   Thanks to our sponsors: https://heights.com/livemore https://drinkage.com/livemore https://onepeloton.co.uk   Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/617   DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

So many people see a lack of nutritional discipline where they really struggle with eating the right thing and sticking to diet as a mental weakness. But really it's a muscle weakness. You have this body that is not trained to burn fat as its primary energy source and is always looking for sugar. So even though you have all this fat store that you could potentially be using for energy, your muscle just doesn't. know what to do with it. So I think that's such an important thing to realize that it's not a mental weakness, it's a muscle weakness. Hey guys, how you doing? I hope you having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Ronan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. When it comes to improving our health and fitness, most of us have absorbed the same message.

work harder, push more, sweat more, basically that no pain means no gain. But what if that story is not only wrong? What if that story is actually holding you back? Well, this week, I sit down with elite endurance coach, Alan Cousins, to completely reframe how we think about movement, fitness and fat loss. Alan is both an exercise physiologist and a performance coach and has spent the past three decades working with a wide range of endurance athletes at all ends of the performance spectrum,

from off-the-couch fitness athletes to the very best athletes in all of endurance sports. Now, I first came across Alan a few years ago when I started following him on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter. His content is simply sublime, and over the past few years, Alan has really helped me to understand the critical importance of low-intensity movement for health, performance, and longevity. He also shares his incredible wisdom and insights on his substack, the science of maximal athletic development,

which I would highly recommend if you want to go deeper into the topics we discuss in this week's episode. In our conversation, we discuss why the ability to burn fat at low intensities is one of the most important markers of true metabolic health, why so many people feel they need to eat every two to three hours, and why that's usually not a willpower problem, but a metabolic problem, and how very easy movement, what Alan calls zone zero and zone one, can transform your health energy, mood, and even your performance, often more than the hard workouts you think you should be doing. We also talk about the need to balance out the stresses of modern life with activities like walking and yoga, the importance of building a big aerobic engine, how best to think about intensity, strength training, V-O-2 max and muscle mass,

and why it's never too late to start increasing how much you move. and experiencing the incredible benefits. Alan is someone who I have a huge amount of respect for. Not only is he extremely knowledgeable and up to date with the later science, he's also someone who has a huge amount of real-world experience helping people to improve their athletic performance and their health. My hope is that this episode serves as a powerful reminder

that the human body simply does not work as well as it could without adequate amounts of movement and that it inspires you to bring more easy movement into your life in a way that supports your health for many decades to come. I wanted to start off, Alan, by talking to you about something I've often heard you say.

A big part of becoming a healthy human as well as a good long-term athlete is to develop the ability to use fat in order to fuel your low-intensity efforts and your day-to-day living. What does that mean for someone who's never come across that concept before? Yeah, I think a lot of the issues that we have from a health perspective in modern life

are metabolic in nature. So we as humans have this long-term evolutionary time span where we were moving a lot through our days and we were expending a lot of energy. And now we're not doing that. And the nature of exercise, when we're in the middle of movement, it's a very stabilizing sort of activity for our body. So if we've just eaten and we go for a walk, it stabilizes our blood glucose.

If we sit at our desk, we don't get that sort of moderating effect. So I think a lot of the problems that we've run into from a health perspective are just related to that. I related to the fact that our body's constantly under this metabolic stress. And one of the things that we can do to improve that and to give the body a lot, less stress is to teach it to generate energy when we're resting from fat so that it's not constantly having to go through these cycles of I've got all of this blood glucose circulating what am I going to do with it so you know a lot of the health measures that I kind of encourage people to do undertake are related to teaching their body to generate energy from fat and in working with athletes obviously

that becomes even more of a factor because the glycogen that they have within their body, we want to devote that to the training, not to walk into the mailbox and back sort of thing. So, you know, I think from both perspectives, the health perspective and the fueling a lot of training perspective, having the ability to burn fat is really important. Yeah, thanks, Helen. I think one of the things that is going to be really full. fun to tease out today is the similarities between the populations you normally deal with, you know, endurance athletes who are coming to you for elite coaching to maybe compete in a

world championship or, you know, super focused and dedicated amateurs who on their weekends and evenings want to do really incredible things with their bodies. But as I've immersed myself in your work, for maybe three or four years now, it's really clear to me that the underpinnings of exercise physiology that you talk about absolutely also apply to the regular man or woman on the streets who just wants to be healthy. And so this idea that we want to burn fat as fuel,

I guess implied within that is this idea that many people these days are not in good metabolic health, and therefore, for these low-intensity activities, as you say, walking to the mailbox or sitting on your sofa watching television, they're actually tapping into burning carbs instead of burning fats. Is that correct? And if so, what is the implication of that for those individuals?

Yeah, that's absolutely correct. In an earlier life, I spent a lot of my time metabolically testing various levels of athletes, recreational athletes, people who were just sort of, you know, moved on from very sedentary lives. And that was exactly what we saw. At very low efforts, at resting efforts, these people are burning a lot of carbohydrate as sort of their default fuel. And that becomes problematic because when you burn carbohydrate, you want carbohydrates. The body starts craving carbohydrate. So you get into these energy swings of, you know, my glucose is dropping.

Glucose is the only thing that I'm really, really good at burning. So I need to go to the vending machine and get some glucose right now. You know, so I think a lot of the issues of people feeling as though they don't have good control of their nutrition and good control of their weight, a lot of those issues. aren't psychological, they're not issues of weakness, they're issues of dysfunctional metabolism. And that's something that when you do change that, when you do the right sort of exercise and you eat the right sort of nutrition to change that, all of a sudden you find it's a lot easier to do those things that you want to do, to not go to the vending machine and grab

the nearest snack. Everything becomes a lot of easier once you start to get the metabolic ass. in check. Yeah, I think that's a great point. I'm sure many people will listen to this podcast will sometimes hear about intimate and fasting or time-restricted eating or trying to reduce how much they snack. And they'll go, yeah, but it's really difficult.

You know, I need a snack every two hours. I cannot go for three hours without foods. And of course, there can be many reasons for that. But I think at the heart of it is just as you've said, they're not in good metabolic health. They're not using fat as their fuel for their activities of daily living. They're tapping into carbs so they're constantly running out of carbs and needing to fix them.

Is this one of the reasons you're so keen for people to look at the zones in which they train? Perhaps we can talk about those zones and how using those zones might potentially help people get better at burning fats? Yeah, I have a bit of a different perspective, I guess, on training zones. And one of the ways that I like to view training zones is more as movement zones. So if you talk with a lot of endurance coaches, their first training zone will sort of start at a good aerobic effort. And, you know, below that, if we're talking about things like walking and we're talking about things like yoga and those low intensity activities, they sort of don't count, you know, in terms of training time.

And for a lot of athletes, that's sort of how they see it. If until their heart rate reaches a certain number, it doesn't count. From my perspective, it all counts because all of the low intensity movement below what we traditionally think of as training is where all of the good stuff happens from a metabolic perspective. So going back to what we're talking about with the fat oxidation, people typically when they start trying to improve that aspect, they need to be exercising and moving in a very low intensity

in order to keep it within that fat burning range. So the first zone for everybody is just that I'm up, I'm not on the couch anymore and I'm moving. And, you know, that's what I call zones. That's your baseline zone where you've got some good metabolic things happening. Moving up from that to zone one, which is where I encourage a lot of my athletes to spend the majority of their training time, that's when we start to have some of the cardiovascular benefits. So we start to see increases in the stroke volume of the heart.

We start to see increases in maximal fat oxidation. We start to see a lot of the, all those positive changes. changes that are really important for endurance athletes. So that's zone zero, the metabolic stuff, zone one, we start to get into the cardiovascular stuff. And then the zones above that start to become much more sport specific. So for an Iron Man Athletes, zone two is where most

Iron Man athletes will be doing most of their race. For a marathoner, zone three is sort of that next step up where they'll be doing their race. And then they're moving up from that, you know, zone four, five is sort of that half marathon and shorter training zone. But all of those higher zones, your ability to do work in those zones is contingent on you having built that metabolic and cardiovascular base. Yeah, that's super interesting.

I want to go into these zones in detail. Is one way to think about these zones, Alan, to think about them as gears? you're sort of very used to talking to endurance athletes and competitive athletes. And I want to make sure throughout this conversation that someone who's not interested in that can still glean your insights and still apply them

because I think they're just as relevant. I really do. And so you're basically talking about going through the gears, aren't you? As you go up, you know, zone one, zone two, zone three, your heart rate's going up, your intensity, your effort is going up. Is that a useful way for people to think about it, would you say?

Yeah, yeah, you know what, and I think it's useful too to think about the fact that you're driving, if we're going to use the gears analogy, you're driving your body through your whole day, you know, so a lot of people, they sort of think of going back to, you know, having that threshold of if it's below this level of intensity, it doesn't count. They think that exercises only after I walk in the gym and start doing my structured workout. But every time that you're moving is some gradation of exercise. So I think we do a real disservice to folks to think about, you know, we have to hit this magic intensity before good stuff starts to happen.

And even for my pro athletes, I will program walks during their day. program recovery walks, you know, and even at that level, these are guys with V-O-2 max values of 70 and 80 mils per kilo. You know, they're very, very fit people. Even for them, there is this metabolic benefit to just going out and going for a walk. Yeah, I want to talk about that because you have shared on multiple occasions on your Twitter and now your X accounts and on your substack, which is just fantastic and just full of such high quality information that I think would benefit anyone.

I think that you share so many case studies of athletes who have in many ways since working with you trained less in terms of intensity, but they've just massively increased zone zero and zone one. So very, very low intensity movement, but they've done lots and lots of it. And they're reporting that they're 5K, you know, Saturday morning time is faster, that when they're competing in their triathlon,

it's faster, even though they're not specifically training at that intensity that they need for their race. So there were two myths. I think I was looking through a lot of your tweets today and reading all your sub-sac articles and really trying to get my head around what I wanted to talk to you about. And there's two big myths you often talk about. One is this no pain, no gain idea, right? So we have this, particularly in the Western world, that it only matters when we feel it and we're out of breath at the end of it. That, you know, then it matters. So that's myth one. And the second myth, which I think speaks to what I just said is that you have to train at a certain intensity to improve your performance at that intensity. And I guess one of the really

reassuring messages from you, which I think is very achievable for people, is to, do loads and loads of Zone Zero and Zone 1 training, which is frankly not that difficult. Yeah, it's just movement. You know, it really is. It's just movement. And I think a lot of people really underestimate the benefits of just movement. And, you know, even things like walking, you know,

when we start to increase the volume of walking in an athlete's day we don't change anything else with their training, their performance level goes up consistently. So, you know, this is something that I think you really have to experience it in order to believe it. You know, and a lot of folks, they really have to sort of, you know, take that leap of faith and throw the heart over the bar first in order to get to the point that they really buy into that.

but when you start to increase this low volume activity through your day and you you start to record it on your training peaks you know you start to say this is actually training this going going for a walk for an hour is actually doing something beneficial when you start tracking that you see improvement consistently for athletes and you know obviously the higher the level of athlete, the less benefit compared to somebody who's just getting up off the couch. But for all athletes, there is benefit in increasing the amount of low intensity movement within your day. So would you say, Alan, if there's someone who's listening to this, who loves to do a park run on a Saturday morning, which is a, you know, the community 5K runs or walks that go on

all over the world, and I know many of my listeners do like to do their local park run on a Saturday morning, are you saying that if they wanted to improve their 5K time at their park run? And let's say they run a 5K on a Saturday and maybe they run twice during the week. So maybe they run three times a week. But let's say that's all they do. Are you saying that if they could on top of that walk for one hour a day, that that would improve their 5K times over a period of time? Without question, there's one athlete that comes to mind who just recently went under three hours for the marathon. And they were doing more than half of their training as walking. So this is a person who is running seven minute miles for the marathon in a competitive event.

and most of their training was at 15 minutes per mile, was just walking. So, you know, I think the level of breakthrough that you can get just by increasing the amount of movement within your day is something that is really, really underestimated for even very high-level athletes and certainly for, you know, your local park runner who, you know, is the weekend warrior who just sort of, you know, doesn't have a lot of time for structured training sessions within their week. If they can increase that incidental portion of activity within their day,

they're going to notice significant improvements, not only in their performance at the park run, but just in terms of their overall health as well. Why is it that walking at low intensities can improve your ability to run a part run, because going back to that gear system or that zone system, you were saying before that you were encouraging people to do a lot of zone zero and zone one, right? So stuff that's easy to recover from, that's not that taxing on the body, yet still has a huge benefit.

Because I think the perception with most people is that if they were wanting to run a faster 5K, they need to practice running fast more and more so that they're training that speed. Now, I mean following your work for years, so I get it, but for the person who doesn't understand it, how would you describe what is going on in the body for that sort of low-intensity training to help them perform in a high-intensity event?

The biggest thing that separates very, very high-level athletes from untrained people is the size of their heart. So the amount of oxygen that they can deliver per beat to the working muscles for an elite level athlete, it's about twice what it is for an untrained person. And we see that in things like resting heart rate. So, you know, my top pro athlete type guys have resting heart rates of about 30 beats per minute. sort of low 30s. And you take a typical untrained person

and their resting heart rate is in the 60s, maybe 70s, you know, maybe more than that. So what that says is that these elite athletes are able to push out just as much oxygen to supply resting energy needs in 30 beats compared to what your untrained person is going to take twice as many beats.

So obviously there's a big difference in terms of the structure of their heart. and the size of their heart. And the good news is that even at low intensities, our heart reaches its maximal feeling at fairly low sort of levels of effort. And certainly for your typical sort of deconditioned person, even walking at, you know, not even a brisk pace, even just a walk, are going to be getting very, very close to the maximum stroke volume that they can reach.

And what this means is every time that the heart fills up with its maximal stroke volume, it stretches a little bit. And all of these little stretches build up over time and lead to this cardiac remodeling, we call it, which really is just about growing the heart and making it larger. So even at very, very low levels of intensity, there's a stimulus there to make the heart just that little bit larger with every beat that it takes. And over time, over years, as these beats start to accrue, we start to see improvement there.

And we start to see these people who might have started with resting heart rates in the 60s. All of a sudden, they're in the 50s, and then they're in the 40s. And this is all coming from relatively low levels of exercise. Yeah, it's absolutely incredible. I think there's something about culture. I don't know if it was always like this hundreds of years ago or not, but certainly since I've been around, which is, you know, when I was born in the late 70s,

I kind of feel that I have very much been surrounded by this idea of no pain, no gain, you know, exercise or movement has to be hard. It has to feel hard. You have to feel as though you've worked afterwards. And of course, there may be certain benefits from that, which we can get into later on. But I guess one of your key messages to people, pro-athly or not, is that even the low-intensity movement matters.

And what you said there about, you know, you get that maximum filling of your heart at those low-intensity. So if you want that adaptation, which I think we all do, that's a very good adaptation in your heart, what, for example, happens if you go to medium-intensity or high-intensity, Does it not have the same effects on the heart when you do that? Yeah, and, you know, this is something that I think is really important from a health perspective for a lot of athletes, because this is something that we see and what I've seen, you know, growing up as a swim coach and as a swim myself,

you see these certain types of athletes who do a lot of zone three, zone four, you know, that hard aerobic training. And over time, they develop the ability to train at these levels of intensity where their heart rate is very, very high for very long periods of time. You know, I've seen swimmers do things like, you know, they'll do an hour-long training set with their heart rate at 180 the whole time. Wow. And so they have this massive gap between what their muscles can do and what their heart can do. And the more you train that gap, the more you widen it. So you've got this very small engine that's revving very, very hard for very long periods of time. And from a health perspective, that's not a good thing because it affects things like the amount of blood flow that we're able to get to the heart.

You know, it has to relax in order to get profusion and get a lot of blood in between me. So we get this heart that's starved of oxygen for very long periods of. time and you know from a health perspective that's just just not a good thing so you know i think it's really important that we keep those things in balance and any any time that we spend really working on the peripheral side on the muscles we also spend working on the central side and making sure that our engine is growing with with our periphery yeah there's so many things island for me that have come up there firstly when you're talking about swimmers you know who can literally have a heart rate at 180 for a prolonged period of time.

I mean, that is a high heart rate. Of course, in the context of racing or swimming, it might make sense. But there has been this sort of idea for a while that there's a sweet spot with exercise, that you want to be moving and exercising quite a bit, and you get benefits with your longevity and your health, but over a certain point, it starts to have diminishing returns. people would question then, you know, is marathon training good for you? You know, is running marathes good for you?

Or is it too much? And whenever I would see that research, I would always think, well, hold on a minute. Does it not depend on how you're running that marathon? If you're not trained and you're running that marathon and you're really, really pushing your body and in all your training, you're really, really pushing your body. Well, maybe that's a huge stress on your body. And if you do that for a number of years, I can see how that could be problematic.

At the same time, if you only compete once a year, if most of your training is low intensity, and your body's recovering from that, then I think, well, saying that you both do marathons is not really comparable because one person is doing it in a way that they might be revving their engine continuously

so your car would wear out. if you did that, and the other person would be doing it where they're gently looking after their car and their engine whilst they're doing the same thing. So do you think that's one of the reasons why the research on exercise might be a little bit confusing when people say that too much might be problematic? Do you think it's because it's too much

of the high-intensity stuff that causes the problems? Today's episode is sponsored by Thrive. Now, as I get older, I realize that staying healthy isn't just about living longer, it's about having the energy to really live those years as myself, to be present for my kids, my work, and for the people who matter most. Recently, I started taking Thrive, a new daily longevity supplement from Heights, a British company that I really trust who focus on using science to make products that work. Thrive is designed to support healthy aging at a cellular level,

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plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 Welcome Kit with your first monthly subscription or details at drinkag1.com forward slash. live more. Yeah, I do. I think that there's some really good, good research on, on the difference in, in the nervous system response at different levels of intensity. And this is something that Stephen Seiler did a really interesting paper on, where he looked at changes in heart rate variability after training sessions below that first

threshold. So, you know, some of these zone zero, zone one sort of walking or very easy activity, activity sessions versus what most people think of as exercise, those zone two through zone five, you know, with the pain, with the supposed gain sessions. And he found a significant an almost sort of binary difference between what happens to the nervous system with the low intensity versus the high intensity. And the high intensity activities are very fight or flight dominant. So the sympathetic nervous system really gets cranking. There's a lot of, it's perceived by the body as a whole as a high stress situation.

Whereas the low activity, low intensity activity, the parasympathetic, the rest and digest, relaxation nervous system of the body actually gets activated and becomes dominant. So I think when we talk about are we doing too much, really the question is how much of the high stress fight or flight stuff are we including within our life? And we're not just talking about exercise here, right? You know, stress is stress. So if you have a really stressful job, your fight or flight system is already very active during the day. And then at the end of the day, you go to the gym and you work out really, really hard. And you keep that fight or flight system activated.

And it's, you know, over time, you reach the point where you've just really worn out the ability of the body to deal with stress. So I think there's a huge difference in what you're saying between someone who has, you this mentality of whenever I work out I have to work out hard versus someone who when they work out they listen to the body and they're like, oh, I'm already in a high stress situation. What kind of activity do I need to do right now to balance that out? And if you take on that perspective, I think you'll find that the body actually does well with quite a lot of activity so long as it is of that parasympathetic rest and rest.

repair kind of nature. Yeah, I love that, Alan. And I guess it really speaks to this idea that you can't really separate the inputs to your nervous system, you know, throughout your daily life. So, you know, we might think of our work life as our work life. And, you know, works busy and it's stressful. But hey, hey, when I finish work, now in my exercise life. And in my exercise life, I like to push it hard in the gym.

actually, it sounds like a more helpful way to look at it would be, okay, work is really stressful. I don't know. Let's say you're an accountant and it's coming up to the end of the tax year, right? So from what I know of the accountants who I know, that's a very busy time of year. So it could be for that individual that's, oh, at this part of the year, for these two months when I'm staying at the office late, I'm working harder than I want to,

but that's just the nature of the job. Maybe my, inadversal, commerce, exercise during these two months should be lots of walking, lots of yoga, lots of low stress movement to help me switch off my sympathetic nervous system. Whereas maybe six months away from that when they have maybe a dip in the year and works quite light and easy to manage. Maybe that's the time of year

when they can be pushing things and do, the intensity and that, you know, it's a different way of looking at your training, isn't it? It's looking at your training as a way of helping your life instead of harming it. Absolutely. And there's been some really good research on exactly that. So if we look at things like heart rate variability, which is a really good marker of whether you're in this fight or flight state versus this, this rest and recovery state, when heart rate variability is already low, so, you know, maybe you've got a lot of stress going on in your life and you're just not in a good spot from a kind of fight or flight nervous system perspective, you don't

adapt as well to hard training. So exactly what you're talking about. If this person, you know, they take their heart rate variability every morning and they notice that I'm in a really bad spot right now, you know, I'm just, I'm in that sort of dip where life is really hectic and I'm not recovering like I usually recover. It makes a lot of sense then to back off anything that might be, you know, zone two and above, that high intensity stuff because the body's just not going to respond to that during those times and save that stuff for when you're back to a good spot with with your nervous system and your nervous system saying, hey, I don't have all of this other stress that I have to deal with.

I'm ready to deal with some training stress right now. Yeah. I want to go back to metabolic health for a moment, Alan. First of all, I'd love you to, you know, tell me, or define it from your perspective. How do you see the term metabolic health? Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with how you're fueling different, different intensities. So our body is really designed to be able to fuel all of our low

intensity activities primarily through fat. And when we start to lose that ability is when we start to have some real health problems. Because when we start to lose that ability, we get into some of the things that we're talking about before with our blood sugar, you know, fluctuating all over the place and our body having to deal with that sort of stress. So I think that's step number one. Develop the ability to fuel your low intensity activity and basically all of your day-to-day movement should be fueled primarily with fat. So we shouldn't have these situations where through the day we're feeling our blood glucose rising and falling all over the place and feeling the need to hit the vending machine.

That's step number one, you know, and I think whether your goal is health or performance, that's the first thing that we should be doing is trying to get to the point that we have nice, stable metabolism through the day. We don't have these huge excursions that a lot of people are dealing with in their everyday life. And a lot of that, again, you know, all of this is sort of tied together

because a lot of this is sort of stress-related too. You know, when we have that fight or flight response, our body releases a lot of sugar because it's like we've got this massive stress that we have to deal with, and your body doesn't know whether the stress is your boss yelling at you or you have, you have to run away from a lion that's going to eat you sort of thing. You know, our body isn't really good. We have all this evolutionary wiring where stress generally meant you need quick energy in order to get away from something. And, you know, in order to sort of balance that, not only do we have

to do the right things from a nutrition perspective and from an exercise perspective, we also have to hit that other pillar that you talk about, which is stress management and relaxation and, you know, not falling into those patterns where we always have this lion in the background that's chasing us that we have to deal with. If someone has stumbled across this conversation, Alan, and they're not an athlete, they certainly don't consider themselves an athlete, but they want to get healthier and they're carrying excess fat on their body. And one of the things they want to do is to lose some of that fat, which of course is a very,

very common goal these days for many people all over the world. if one of your goals is to burn fat and to lose fat off your body, is this zone zero and zone one training, which then improves your body's ability to fuel its activities from fat going to be helpful? Yeah, I think the most important thing and something that's overlooked all of the time is that if you want to burn fat from your body, you need to be able to burn fat within your muscles. And so many people see a lack of discipline,

nutritional discipline, you know, where they really struggle with eating the right thing and sticking to diet as a mental weakness. But really it's a muscle weakness. It's you have this body that is not, trained to burn fat as as its primary energy source and is always looking for glucose, is always looking for sugar. So even though you have all this this fat store that you could potentially be using for energy, your muscle just doesn't know what to do with it. It's not trained

in order to generate energy using that fat. And so you have this disconnect between, you know, you have all of this wonderful energy stored within your body that's just waiting to be burned, but you haven't taught your muscle how to burn it. So I think that's such an important thing to realize that it's not a weakness. It's not a, it's not a, you know, a laziness, a lack of, a lack of effort on so many people's parts. and so many people really struggle with sticking with good nutrition. It's not a mental weakness, it's a muscle weakness. And the more that you can teach your muscle to burn fat,

the easier you're going to find it to use what you already have on board. And the quicker you're going to find those body composition changes taking place. Yeah, that's a really interesting way to think about it. And I love that you're, you're sort of helping people understand that it, it's not necessarily you're being weak in your mind. It's that you've not trained your muscle appropriately. So it can utilize fat for those things.

And because a lot of people who are struggling to lose weight will tell you that, hey, I went to the gym. I pushed it really hard in the gym. And I try not to snack, but I just, I get so hungry every two and a half hours that I just need to eat something. But as you say, there's a certain irony there, isn't there? There is an excess of fat literally on your body.

If your body was able to fuel your life from fat and not glucose or carbs, you would be slowly, you know, bit by bit burning off. And as you say, getting those changes in body composition. But the reason you're struggling and A, they're often going to the gym and pushing it really hard, which I'm guessing is requiring more. burning of carbs, burning of sugar, as opposed to the training of the burning of fat, right? So, and it's really sad, actually, because people are trying so hard to lose weight, but are perhaps being stuck in this burning sugar cycle.

So I guess, Alan, if someone came to you and said, listen, I think I'm not able to burn fat at low intensities, can you please help me? what would you ask them to do? Yeah, I think there's three key components. And the first one that I'll hit is something that we've kind of already talked about. And that is you're going to find it really hard to keep a stable metabolism if you have a lot of stress in your life. So, you know, it's not an intuitive sort of thing to look.

to you when you're looking to lose fat, but really learning some stress management techniques and doing things. I'm a huge fan of yoga. You know, I do yoga pretty much every day that I'm around. And, you know, when you start doing things like that and having these mental resets during the day where you can really dial down the stress, it has a significant impact. on your metabolism. So that would be the first thing that I would say to people,

we really need to do what we can to have these anchor points during the day where you completely reset from a stress perspective. And getting control of your breathing is really important. I encourage people every hour, just take five deep breaths. That's all you've got to do, every hour on the hour, Set an alarm at your desk and just take five deep breaths. And simple things like that can really have a significant impact on whether your body is moving into that fight or flight mode or whether it stays in that rest and repair mode. So that's number one, taking care of the stress.

Number two is exercise and movement. So what you do for exercise and as you said, you know, how hard you push yourself is going to have a significant impact on what you burn. So if someone is really struggling with weight loss, first thing I would say is just forget about anything hard. Just forget about all of the hard stuff. All of your exercise at the moment is going to be easy. So we're just going to do things like very easy walks. You know, we're going to find the nearest park with the most trees and the most beautiful nature that's just going to keep you with that parasympathetic state, and you're going to go for a 40-minute walk every day through the park.

And that is your exercise. So everything is going to be low intensity. We're not going to spike the blood sugar. We're going to keep everything in that zone zero, zone one. And then the final thing, and what most people consider is the first thing, is the nutrition. And when you do both of those things, you're going to find that it's a lot easier then to have a diet that is more protein, lean meat, vegetable, fruit, healthy focus because you won't be having those same cravings that you were having before. So, you know, making the diet focused on real foods and relatively low carb, you know, not crazy, but relatively low carb, which tends to happen when we just eat good nutrition and real food. Yeah, I love the way you put that, Alan. I've not really heard fat loss being tackled quite like that before.

I love the fact that you started off with stress rather than other things. You know, most people would start with nutrition. And of course, look, there's many ways to do these things, right? But I really like the way that you frame that. And it made me think of CGMs, you know, continuous glucose, monitors. So I personally have found CGMs, not all the time, but now and again, to be one of the most useful tools I've seen since I qualified as a doctor to help people understand how their nutrition, their stress, their sleep, their movement affects their blood sugar. And you can't really unknow what you've learnt. Even if you just wear it once for two weeks, and they're then take the learnings and apply them, I still think you'll get a huge amount of value. And one of the things I've learnt from using CGMs now and again is that different forms of exercise do different things to your blood sugar. If I go for a walk, even if I go on a hike on a gentle hill,

my blood sugar is completely flat and stable. But if I do a Saturday morning 5K where I'm pushing it a little bit, my sugar starts to go up. And it's, it's really, it's really, I find it really exciting because I'm learning about my body and how different things I do make a difference. I then know that, oh, on high stress days, sometimes you see your sugar going up, even though your nutrition was exactly the same as the day before. Or sleep deprivation makes your sugar go up. And I think, I love what you said right at the start of this conversation on this idea that basically, our ancestors would have been exceptionally good at fueling from fat.

A, food wouldn't have been around all the time, but B, their lifestyles would, you know, lots of low-intensity movements, would have ensured that they could meet their needs every day, mostly from fat. I think that's a pretty reasonable assumption to make. And what's also really interesting if we think about that is a lot of these populations, these long-living populations around the world,

they're not training their sprints or training fast 5Ks. They're just walking a ton, often on hilly terrain, but they're moving. So they're constantly firing up zone zero and zone one. So they're getting good at using fat for fuel. And I guess because many people these days are not in good metabolic health, I think the stats in America are that, you know, it's over 90% of people have some degree

of metabolic dysfunction. The UK stat that I found a couple of months ago suggested it was maybe 60, 65% of the UK population have some element of metabolic dysfunction. So we're looking at populations now that are really struggling with, you know, making fuel efficiently in our bodies. And I think the primary thing that we need to help people do is, as you say, get them better, at burning fats. Yeah, you bring up a really good point with the CGMs. And I found, like you, I found it really insightful to wear a CGM for a period of time. And one of the things that I noticed that was really kind of surprising to me was that the patterns

that I saw within my glucose had a lot more to do with. what I was doing and the stress that I was under rather than what I was eating. And, you know, I think that's one of the best uses of CGMs is they really tell you what sort of state your body is in, you know, and whether you're in that sort of fight or flight sugar burning state where your blood glucose, obviously, you know, kind of goes along with that and, you know, your body makes available a lot of glucose. to burn or whether you're in this calm, sort of steady, parasympathetic state. And when you start to get control of that and you start to have more stability within your glucose profile, it becomes a lot easier than two-burn fat.

Because if you've got your blood sugar elevated, all of your, the fat burning of your body is pretty much shut off. So when you're doing your 5K at a full-on effort, your bone. very, very little fat. And the same thing, if you're sitting in your boss's office and he's yelling at you and you see that your glucose is spiked up because of the stress, you're burning very, very little fat. So really getting control of your metabolism in that sense and getting some stability there

is absolutely key to going back to our hunter-gatherers, you know, our ancestors who, sure, when the lion was chasing them, they had this big glucose. bike. But then for most of the day, they were sitting around the campfire and, you know, they were in that very, very stable parasympathetic state. So I think the more that we can get back to that sort of profile, the healthier we're going to be. If someone, Alan, is not so good at burning fat and their body is reliant on carbs and sugar, so regular eating in order to fuel, is it going to be difficult for them to go, let's say, for that one hour walk? If they're so bad in terms of their metabolism, how do you help them rebuild that?

And is it possible to rebuild in most people? The hardest part, honestly, is mental. And again, going back to our sort of no pain, no gain attitude, most people are going to struggle to exercise easy enough in order to make metabolic inroads. And, you know, this is something that one thing that I like to do when I'm working with sort of just off the couch athletes is I'll get the lactate tester out and I'll measure their lactate, you know, during a very, very easy sort of walk. and I'll see, you know, their lactate is it two millimoles per liter or something, which is a fairly elevated sort of level. And I'll tell them, you know, at two miller moles per liter,

your typical world champion triathlet is doing a really hard session at that point. You know, that's the sort of session that they would be at the track doing, you know, a thousand meter repeats at a pretty good effort. And you're doing this walk and the intensity that you're doing right now is it, is it a comparable intensity to what the world champion would be doing for a very hard session? Wow. So it starts to bring in this sort of framework of if they want to do the sort of intensity that the world champion will be doing for 80% of their workouts,

which is around about a millimol per lateral lactate, it's a very, very easy level of intensity. They have to go crazy easy, just beyond even what their mind can comprehend at that point in order to work out at a similar level of intensity. So that becomes then just, okay, we're going to dial this back. We're just going to amble through, you know, over the course of the next hour, we're just going to walk through this park and we're going to take a chat. And then at the end of it, we're going to test your blood lactate and see where it is.

and then maybe it's sort of 1.5 at the end of that hour of ambling through the park just talking. And it starts to bring in this perspective of just how easy has to be. And so the goal would be for that individual that they would start there. They would just have these one hour ambles. They might sit down every 15 minutes if they need to. But they would just keep doing that day after day, week after week, month after month, and little by little, their fat burning capacity will

start to improve and increase. Exactly. And, you know, as I said, the hardest part is mental because our culture, our society just isn't set up to encourage that. You know, you think, oh, I've got an hour or I've got 30 minutes in which to work out during my day and the rest of my day is very busy. I have to make the absolute most of that. And when people think about making the absolute most of that,

they think I have to move fast, and I have to exercise hard, and I have to feel as I'm putting out this effort, when in reality that's working against these metabolic changes that we want to make. Okay, I have a theoretical question for you, Alan. Let's say someone says to you, I'm not interested in being an athlete,

I don't want to compete at 5Ks or in triathlons, but around my family life and around my job, I want to do what I can to stay well as I get older. And I can give you one hour a day. Now, I recognize you might have said, one hour is not enough, right? But we'll come to optimal and what I ideally recommend shortly in this conversation.

But if they could give you one hour a day, So that's seven hours a week. What would you say would be their best bang for buck? Today's episode is sponsored by Peloton. Now, we all know that moving our body is more is good for us. But despite that knowledge, many of us find it hard to actually implement. And that's where the new Peloton Cross Training Bike Plus, powered by Peloton IQ, can really help. It's built for fitness breakthroughs with real-time insights and endless ways to move,

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if I have a busy week of work or I'm on a training camp with athletes, you know, where I'm not getting the time that I usually get to exercise, the things that I prioritize are walking in nature and yoga. So those are the two things that I think are my non-negotiables in terms of being a healthy human. I need to get out in nature and just walk. walk easy every day and I need to do some yoga and it might just be 15 minutes of working through various sort of yin poses and just to calm my nervous system at the end of the day but those are

the two things that I think have the greatest bang for your buck and you know going back to what we were talking about with with stress when when a person when any human is is time crunched and they're very, very busy, they're probably spending a lot of their day in this sympathetic nervous system dominant, this fight or flight sort of mode. So there is huge benefit to just taking some time to switch out of that mode, to switch into that rest repair recovery mode. And from a health perspective, that's going to give them a whole lot more than trying to make huge fitness gains with a really hard training session at that time. Because as we said, when you're dealing with all of these other stresses, you don't adapt to those hard training

sessions. So, yeah, that's what I would prioritize. Anything that's going to switch me out of this high stress mode into this parasympathetic, dominant, rest, relaxation. And the other thing that that's going to do, you're going to sleep a lot better. You're going to have a much, much better recovery state for when you're not busy, when you're not at work. You're, you're, you're going to find that your whole energy is a lot better if you're able to just break out of that high stress cycle. Yeah, I love that. That's very helpful advice,

and it's quite counterintuitive. And just to be clear, not only are you on top of all the science, you have measured this sort of stuff in people for decades now. With your athletes, you want them to test at what intensity does their lactate start to rise. So first of all, can you say what lactate is? How does it sit on top of those zones that you mentioned before, or those gears? And then from there, I want to really understand

you love your athletes to test, but do you think there are benefits for Joe Public to also test their lactate as well? Or do you think that's overkill? Yeah, so tying in with a lot of what What we've talked about, lactate is fundamentally a product of sugar burning. So when we're in this sugar burning, sugar burning mode of glycolysis, one of the things that happens within our body is when we generate energy from that sugar, we produce this thing called pyruvate. And if we're very aerobically fit and we have a lot of mitochondria, this pyruvate can then be used as a fuel and can generate energy aerobically like that.

When we don't have that, this pyruvate becomes lactate. So, you know, when you see elevated levels of lactate in the blood, you're basically seeing that this person is burning sugar right now and they don't have enough aerobic fitness to use all of the lactate that's being produced. So it's starting to spill over into the blood. So that gives you some really important information from metabolic perspective, you know, right from the get-go. High lactate, high sugar burning is a good way of thinking about it. And then in terms of testing, lactate goes along with a lot of the other type of testing that we've talked about.

So when you see elevated levels of blood glucose because you're sugar burning, you'll also typically see high levels of lactate. So it's not just that you're doing a hard 5K training effort that results in an elevated lactate. If you're stressed out, if I'm, you know, if I have an argument with a significant other and then I go downstairs and jump on the bike and I test my lactate, it's also going to be elevated. You know, it won't be a normal resting level for me. So I think, I think lactate is, you know, beyond kind of the elevation. athlete and obviously we use it to set training zones and things like that, it is a really good marker of what's happening for your metabolism. Yeah. Is it fair to say that as, because there'll be a lot of people who are listening

who perhaps have never come across lactate before or training zones. So going back to what we said earlier, you know, as your intensity goes up, you get different adaptations in the body and different things have been asked if your body at the lower gears, Zone zero, zone one, you're burning fat almost exclusively. And as you get more and more intense, you're feeling it more, your heart rate goes up, you start to burn sugar more, and your lactate starts to rise as well.

Yep, absolutely. So the sugar burning starts, when the lactate starts to live, you know, if we plot a curve of intensity and we start at just a walk and then we move to a jog and then we move to a fast run and then we move to like a 5K kind of really hard effort we'll see that the lactate curves sort of rises exponentially through those exercise intensities and exactly what you're saying is happening so when we

we move to the jog we start to burn a little bit more sugar but we're fit enough and there's enough mitochondria and enough aerobic fitness within the muscle to use most of the lactate being produced. But then over time, as we're increasing the intensity, we start generating more sugar. We start, you know, really utilizing a lot of glycolysis to generate the energy that we need for that. And as that sugar burning increases, we produce more lactate and eventually it's more than what our mitochondria can process. So it starts spilling out into the blood and we see it exponentially rise as the effort goes on. And one of the key, I guess, guiding training principles for all the athletes that I work

with is we want to do a whole lot of work where we're not in that sugar burning mode. So what that means from a lactate perspective is the lactate is at the lowest level that you can possibly get it to. And going back to our walk through the park example, you know, of the person we really need to just amble through the park in order to get that lactate to the lowest possible level that we can get it to so that we know that you're burning fat and we know that you're really improving that aspect of your metabolism. Yeah, it's really interesting, Alan, that staying in that zone, that low intensity zone where you're burning fat has got huge performance benefits. So the

athletes coming to you who want performance, they're going to get, enhanced performance from doing that. But me through my medical lens, I'm thinking, yeah, but it ain't just performance because you're going to improve your mitochondrial function, mitochondrial efficiency, the number of mitochondria, which of course are a central part of health. So if you spend a lot of time in that fat burning zone at low intensities, you're going to improve your metabolic health and improve metabolic health, and improve metabolic health

not only makes you feel good in terms of your energy and your vitality, it also reduces your risk of pretty much every single chronic disease that we have, whether that be heart attacks, strokes, dementia, all those things,

and many forms of cancer, I should say also, the risk of getting them is reduced when you have excellent metabolic health. So I think this low-intensity movement that our ancestors did a lot of that you do with your athletes that we're talking about today have benefits for performance

and for our health. Absolutely. You know, I think one of the great errors in thinking is that when you reach a certain level of performance, you need to make the trade of, okay, this might not be the best thing for my health, but I'm a serious athlete now. I need to sacrifice that health to some degree.

But that's just not the case. The things that are going to be the most beneficial for your long-term performance as an athlete are exactly the same things that are going to be the most beneficial for your long-term health as a human. Where does intensity then come in to the way you think? Because there must be a role for intensity

for health and performance. but are you of the opinion that that comes in later once you've built a foundation in your life of regular amounts of low intensity movement? Absolutely, yeah. I think the way that intensity comes in is if you're preparing the body for a specific type of effort. So if I'm preparing to run a 5K and I wanted to do it under 20 minutes, then my muscles need to have the ability to work at this four minute per K effort. And if I'm only ever training at seven minutes per K,

then obviously I'm not using those muscle fibers in order to do that. So I need a certain amount of training and a certain amount of time spent where I'm recruiting those muscle fibers that I'm going to use when I do my 20 minute 5K. But if we have this really strong foundation of when I'm going through the day, you know, doing my regular activities, when I'm doing my very easy training, I'm fueling it almost exclusively through fat, then I have this glycogen that I can use just for this specific training. So by building this base of where I'm not using sugar and I'm not using glycogen for things that it's not really designed for,

I get this pool that I can draw on when I start to do the specific work for a specific event that excites me that I really want to prepare for. And this is really the essence of periodization. You know, you build this foundation of work capacity where you're teaching your body to use fat so that it's not waste the energy doing things that it does. doesn't need to be doing so that when you move to this specific preparation, you have this energy reserve that you can draw from and really make the most of it. Yeah, so your focus is basically saying let's get the low intensity foundation in first, find a way to get that into your life. Once you've been doing that for a period of time, then let's think about other things like

intensity or I guess even strength. But if we were to go back to that fictional chap who said, I don't want to be an athlete, but I want to be well and I want good levels of longevity. And they were giving you one hour a day. You were saying walking and yoga, these very low stress activities, which of course are going to do multiple things. They're going to improve your fat burning, improve your metabolic health, and they're going to help you balance the stress from your life. What if they then said, okay, Alan, I've been doing that for two months. great, I'm sleeping better. I can give you two extra hours across the entire week for something else to do with fitness and movement. What would you tell them to do in those extra two hours? On top of the seven hours of movement they've already got from walking and yoga?

I think beyond that sort of ability to de-stress and to mitigate some of the stresses of everyday life, one of the things that becomes problematic as we age is the loss of muscle mass. So, you know, if you don't do anything that's not hard, but has some resistance to it, then you lose muscle. And I think if I had that extra couple of hours, the next thing that I would add on top of that is just some very, very basic, very easy in the in most people's sense of strength training just sort of circuit training is something that I'm a big fan of so you know relatively low loads but just keeping them

moving over the period of 30 minutes 45 minutes you know moving whole whole body muscle high muscle mass activities and you know under under some level of load so it you know just basic movements. I do a lot of goblet squats, you know, doing things like single leg Romanian deadlifts, things that involve your whole body, really work on balance, recruit enough muscle mass to keep that as we get older. You know, I think there's a big push at the moment for more and more muscle mass and, you know, we see kind of, it seems like we're in this phase of the health and wellness kind of continuum where everyone's all about getting bigger and bigger and bigger and carrying as much muscle mass as we can into into our 60s and

70s. I don't think that's necessary. I think the aim really is to maintain the muscle mass of a normal, young, healthy human as we get older. Yeah. I was going to come to that, actually, Alan, because I've also been thinking about this obsession we have these days with muscle. And, you know, I've spoken to many guests over the years who have said on this podcast that muscle mass is important as you get older. And it is, particularly because after the age of 30,

I think we can lose 3% to 5% every decade unless we do something about it. So, of course, it's important. But again, like we said before, you know, it's in the detail, right? Yes, strength and muscle mass is important, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you need to be massive. For anyone who might be confused, Alan, in terms of how they should look at strength or muscle

mass, which they've heard about before, you know, how do you make sense of it for them? Yeah, I think you really, you want muscle that you can fuel aerobically. So, and this ties in with a lot of what we've been talking about. When you get people who are very, very well, they have a lot of strength, a lot of muscle mass, and they have a bias of these fast twitch muscle fibers, right? So we've got different types of muscle fibers within our muscle. We've got slow twitch fibers, which have a tendency to be very erroneous. You have a lot of the good stuff within them.

You have a lot of mitochondria. You have a lot of capillaries that can deliver oxygen to them. They're designed to be able to fuel things aerobically. And then you have these fast twitch fibers that don't have as much of that good stuff. So they don't have as much mitochondria per unit. They don't have the sort of blood flow that the slow twitch fibers have. And when we start to bias our training towards those fast twitch fibres, by doing traditional strength training,

we detract from our aerobic abilities. So, you know, going along with what we said about, we want this body that's very good at producing energy from fat and from oxygen. So we want this aerobically fueled organism. And, you know, if we start to develop the sugar burning side of things with these fast-witch fibers that love generating lactate, that love using sugar as their primary energy source, we're really detracting from a lot of the health metrics that we're going for.

So something that I kind of look for is, if you're adding muscle mass, I want it to be aerobic muscle mass. So I want your VO2 matax to go up with the muscle mass. If I'm seeing an athlete's muscle mass go up, and the VO2 max go down, then that's telling me that that muscle is not aerobic muscle. It's not the sort of muscle that we really want. So okay, V02 max, it's a new term.

Can you first of all explain what is VO2 max? And then I'd love you to explain what are those scenarios whereby somebody would increase their muscle mass alongside their VO2 mats going down? Because it'd be interesting to know, what is it people are doing that could lead to that outcome?

So, yeah, if you start off there with what is V-O-2 mats, I think that will be helpful for people to understand. So V-O-2 Max is basically your whole body's oxygen uptake per unit of time. So if we're very aerobically fit, one of the things that we have is we have a lot of mitochondria, we have a lot of oxygen being delivered to the muscles. So per unit of time, our muscles are using all of that oxygen is being delivered at a very high rate. So when we see elite level endurance athletes, we see this VO2 max number,

which is basically oxygen uptake per unit of time at a super high level. So it's a consistent thing with very, very good endurance athletes to have a high VO2 max. And beyond elite endurance athletes, it also happens to be one of the most important and most consistent variables that are tied to living for a very long time. So if you have a very high VO2 max for your age, your chances of dying over the next 10, 20 years is very low compared to someone who has a very low VO2 max for their age. So, you know, it's a very important indicator of health and fitness as well. And when we do a lot of kind of strength work that is not challenging the aerobic system as most strength work, you know, most traditional strength work where you're doing sort of, you know, you'll do six to ten reps and then you'll sit on the bench and you'll rest for three minutes.

There's not a whole lot of oxygen demand there because the body can use what it has to generate energy anaerobically and then it has plenty of time to recover. When you do that kind of activity, you get bigger muscles, but you don't get oxidative muscles. You don't get muscles with a lot of this mitochondria and capillary kind of innovation that you would get if you were doing more aerobic activities. That's really interesting. Okay, so I want to make sure people don't go away from this conversation confused, right? So if someone has heard before that it's really important to put on muscle mass, you know, once you hit 30, once you get into your 40s, you must be doing something regularly to counterat the natural tendency for muscle mass to go down.

And there are a variety of ways in which they can do that. They may have heard people say, you know, get a heavy weight, lift it five times, stop, wait two, three minutes, do it again. And these things will give certain adaptations, of course, and you will grow bigger muscles by doing that. Do you think there's a potential downside then for people's health of training like that? Or do you think that can have value as long as we're not doing too much of it? Yeah, I think about strength training in the way that I think about endurance training, to be honest with you.

So, you know, just like when you're doing endurance training, you have the bulk of your work is very low intensity. And then you have this specific preparation for, you know, your 5K or whatever event you might be preparing for. Your strength training, in my opinion, should be similar. So the majority of the work should be relatively low intensity. Should be sort of circuit training. and then you might have a little bit that is devoted to some of these higher efforts. And really what we're going for in the higher efforts is not so much an increase in the size of those fast-rich fibers. We're just doing enough to keep them around from a neural perspective.

So we're keeping that ability to recruit these fibers and keeping the strength that we already have so that these fibers don't think that they're not needed anymore and start to atrophy. So I think just a little bit there is really important just to keep your fast-witch fibers around, but we don't need to go to that level where we need to become bodybuilder, hypertrophy monsters that, you know, I don't think that's beneficial for health.

Yeah, I love the way you think there. It's a nice way to think about your aerobic training, a lot of time, low intensity, a little bit of high intensity, once you've built that aerobic base. I know you mentioned Stephen Sather before. He came on the podcast about 18 months ago. We had a lovely chat about all these kind of zones and why he recommends an 80-20 approach, 80%, low intensity, 20%, you know, at different intensities higher. And I know you share very similar perspectives on many levels, but I haven't really heard that approach apply to strength before as well. And it does make a lot of sense to me. And if I think about how I like to

train my strength. It is exactly as you say. I don't particularly go and do these 30 minute sessions. I just regularly have heavy things lying around my house and my garden. And throughout the day at various times, I would just go, I'll pick up a sandbag, you know, put it on my shoulder, what's the end of the garden, throw it up in the air, pick it up again, walk back, throw it up, I maybe do that 10 times, and then I'll get on with my work. Or, you know, I'll pick up a kettlebell, while I'm, you know, on my way to make a cup of tea, and I'll do 20 kettlebell swings.

Put the kettle on, get the tea to brew, and then do another 20 kettlebell swings while I'm waiting. And then get my tea and I'll go back to work. So I kind of think I tend to do that. Maybe what I could improve, perhaps, is, you know, where's the 20% of really, really heavy stuff? Maybe I've let that slip over the past few months. Also, with respect to VOTOMX,

I've had Peter Ateer on a couple of times on the podcast over the past few years. And Peter, of course, talks a lot about VO2 Max, being one of the most important predictors for our longevity. And he talks about, well, he references this scientific paper in his book where your VOTMAC starts to gradually go down, I think it starts to fall quite sharply. 40s and 50s, I think I can't quite remember the graph.

In your experience, from what you've seen, when does fitness and things like V-O-2 Max start to fall off? I, e, the point I'm trying to get to, Alan, is, is there an age at which you think, listen, if you haven't paid attention to your fitness, you might have got away with it in your 20s and your 30s, but there's a point in life where you simply can't get away with it anymore. You have to start doing something.

Have you found like an age range where you've seen that with your athletes at all? Yeah, I mean, if we look at sort of, you know, master's record performances, it's fairly easy to see exactly what you're talking about. if we look at sort of, you know, 10K or marathon performances for 30-year-olds, 35-year-olds, 40-year-olds, they're all still fairly good. And then when we start to get towards 50, they start to drop off. And, you know, I can tell you from my experience, these 50-year-olds are still training a lot. You know, there's still 50-year-olds at the top of endurance sport

who are still training just like, you know, professional athletes do. It's not a training issue. It's an aging issue. So I think that's something that is not thought of enough when we see these 30-year-old health and fitness influences who are in great shape, and they are only doing their, you know, three or four hours a week or whatever they're doing.

It's easy for us as, you know, 50-year-old people to say, well, that looks great. You know, they're only training four hours a week. They're doing these high-intensity sessions, and their V-O-2-max is high, and, you know, I should do that. I want that V-A-2-max. But the reality is our V-O-2 max

is going to decline significantly with age beyond the age of 40. So if we want to maintain the V-O-2 max of a young person when we were in our 40s, 50s, 60s, we're going to need to train more. And I think that's, you know, that's an uncomfortable truth for a lot of people. But it's something that I sort of look at in terms of planning for my retirement and planning my lady years in life. I plan on spending a lot of my time moving. I plan on increasing the amount of exercise that I'm doing versus right now.

And, you know, that's something that I think if we were sort of go into exercise with that perspective, that our objective really is sustainability and something that we can build on and not actually decrease through the years, it would change what we do. It would change what our exercise looks like. Yeah. I would say one of the things I try and do every day is do at least one hour of walking. I, like you, have realized that, hey, as I'm getting older, I need to move more, not less. And I'm very lucky because I do have a lot of autonomy over my time now in a way that I didn't

have early one in my career. When opportunities come in and there's, you know, things that I could do, I'm also now thinking about it through the lens of, yes, but if I do that, if that gets in the way of my ability to move, I'm not sure it's worth the trade, right? And I would definitely, I would give you a lot of credit for that because I think your tweets over the years have really helped frame that in my brain and go, yeah, well, hold on a minute. How do you define success, right?

In fact, Alan, I was going to ask you how, you know, you said you were in your 50s. I'm too polite to ask you how old you are, right? So you're in your 50s. At this stage in your life, how do you define success? I think as you reach the sort of age that I'm at now, you start to think about what you want your 60s and 70s to look like. And one of the pitches I've always had in my head, and I've spent a bit of time in Arizona at the Green Canyon. It's one of my favorite places to go, you know, to hike around.

And when I see the bus loads of older people coming through looking at the Grand Canyon through their bus windows, you know, there are people in their 70s and I'm sure that some of them are thinking, I wish I had come here back when I was in my 30s and 40s. I would love to get down there and, you know, to touch the ground and experience, experience hiking through the canyon. I never want to be at that point. I never want to be on that bus. Unable to get out and walk down, hike down into the canyon. So that's sort of my guiding principle, I guess. I always, as long as I'm on this earth, I want to be functional. And I think, you know, no matter how much money you have,

no matter how much success you have, you know, from a business perspective, if you're at the point where you're limited in what you can do physically, then there's something that's really important that's missing from your life. And, you know, I'm trying to, obviously I'm not at that point yet. I'm still able to do all of these things. And I want to keep that for as long as I possibly can. Yeah. It's really interesting, Alan.

My son is currently 15 and, you know, we've been talking about what he might do for his. levels in the next two years, which are the sort of, you know, here in the UK, at least, they're the exams you do in the final two years of school if you choose to say at school beyond the age of 16. And I was having a chat with him the other day and he was talking about what some of his mates were saying, well, about what jobs they want to do? And, you know, one of them says, well, I want to be a charter council. You know, I've heard they make quite a lot of money and whatever. It was just interesting to hear what he was saying. And one of the things I said to him, it's all interesting hearing what your mates are saying, but when you're

thinking about that, what job you might want to do, A, I was saying, think about what you love, right? Think about what is it you're going to really enjoy doing? And if you don't know now, that's completely fine. We can figure that out, or you can figure that out over the next five, 10, 15 years, right? You don't have to make that decision now. But I also said to him, have a think about what is the cost of doing that job? And we went through this thought experiment about if being a chartered accountant pays X thousand pounds a year, and that's what that individual wants to earn,

is it still worth it if they're working every weekend and they're working late every evening and they can't take any time off? Is it still worth it? Or might it be better to earn 10,000 pounds a year less and have your weekends free and your evenings free. And what it was is the reason I'm so passionate about this is, because I know you tweet about this quite a lot about what a,

you know, how to look at the, you know, how to look at your life, you know. I just want to put the idea into him that I didn't have at that age, which is all of these choices, they have a cost. There is a consequence. If you choose a job that you love, that, but that, doesn't allow you to move. And I get loads of people who are in that position and there's nothing they can do about it. I do accept that. But I do think it's quite interesting if we were to bring up a generation thinking about, well, what kinds of jobs could I do that would pay me enough,

but also give me enough time to move? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's, you know, as a coach and, you know, a coach who's worked with a lot of adult athletes who have all different types of jobs, it's frustrating when there's certain cultures in certain jobs that really, really a build around not having control of your schedule and almost voluntarily surrendering that. You know, it's like if you want to do this job, you need to, you need to be aware that we own you. We own your time. essentially, you know, and whether it's a company that you're working for is owning your time or whether you're in a startup and, you know, you just kind of realize that the business is

everything when you're, when you're getting started and you're not going to have your own, your own sort of, you know, you're not going to have the luxury of then. I'm to say, well, I'm not not doing this today, but they're going to go for a three-hour hike instead. you know, I think a lot of that is really cultural. And you need to be careful. If you value your health, you need to be really careful on what culture you're going to take up and what culture you're going to adopt as the norm. Because there's big differences, right?

I mean, you have on that side, some people who have very little control of their schedule. And then I've worked with others who have prioritized their health and fitness from the beginning and have carved out these niches where that's really important. And they're going to make sure that they always have time to do what they need to do from a health and fitness perspective. And I think a lot of people, they kind of get stuck in these routes, you know, where you say, yes, I'm going to do this. Yes, I'm moving up to this promotion. this promotion is going to require X amount more hours per week, you know, and you just, it's so easy to get really stuck in a particular path

and not to be conscious of, well, you know, health and fitness was something that was really important to me back, you know, five years ago, and now all of a sudden it's just been kind of pushed out, you know, and it can be really insidious. And I think it's something that, as you said, it's important to be mindful of. It's really, really common that, but it doesn't, it doesn't apply to everyone. It was really interesting, I don't know, maybe 10, 15 years ago.

One of my mates from primary school, who's a teacher, you know, he's been a teacher for a while, and he was, I think he's the assistant head. No, the assistant, is it the head in his department, basically, not of the school in his department. And we, this is back when I used to play squash with him. I think he said once that, oh, mate, I've been offered head of the department, but I'm not going to take it because, yeah, it's a little bit of extra money. But the amount of stress that job comes with, I don't think it's a good trade. I wouldn't be able to do my sports at the weekend and all the other things he enjoys doing. And it really stuck in my ear when he said that because I wasn't brought up to think like that.

I think like that now, but I didn't think like that back then. So there are people out there, maybe like you, maybe like my friends, who actually do see life in this kind of more holistic way and go, yeah, at what cost do I do the thing that everyone around me tells me I should be doing? The better job, the promotion. Well, maybe I'm okay just, you know, he was like, well, I earn enough. I don't really need anymore. I'd rather be able to do my fun stuff at the weekends.

And that's exactly what you're talking about, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. you know, and I think I came from Australia, and I think Australia is a very sort of tradition-oriented sort of country. You know, it has these sort of working class values. And, you know, I know that growing up, the path was, you know, as you're going through school, you identify what job you want, and then you apply to that job and you get in with a company and you sort of work your way through that company. And I didn't really have this exposure to there being different, different options. And it really wasn't until I moved to the US that I saw these people doing things differently, you know, starting businesses and just taking these non-traditional approaches.

And I think I'm really fortunate that I got exposed to that because if I didn't, it just wouldn't have been a possibility. It wouldn't have been in my mindset that, you know, maybe there are, these alternative routes that I can take that still pay me enough, but I get control of my time and I get to make sure that I still have some agency over my health and fitness. We were talking about V-O-2 Max before, and you were saying even in well-trained athletes,

as you get older, that VO2 Max will start to decline. So I guess the follow-up question is, if we want to protect our VO-2 Max as we get older, and potentially increase it, is there anything we can do, or do we have to accept this as inevitable decline? Yeah, I think it depends where we're coming from. You know, if you're Elliot Kipchurgi, who you've had on your podcast, then I think some decline in V-O-2X is kind of inevitable when you're coming from that level.

But for most of us... Because you've reached your genetic potential through all your training, so it is going to decline. Absolutely, yeah. And, you know, for most of us, though, I think my kind of my standard or what I aim to maintain through my life is I want to keep a young person's, a normal, fit, healthy young persons, V02 Max for as many years as I possibly can. And that's about 50 mils per kilo for a for a young male. So that's the standard I have in my head. of I want to do enough training to hold onto this V-2 max of 50mills per kilo for as long as I can. And, you know, in my 50s, that's a decent amount of activity. You know, I trained two hours a day, basically. But I know that in order to do that in my 60s and 70s, we're starting to get up to pretty elite levels of fitness for those guys.

So, you know, I'm certainly playing the long game here, and I'm pacing with that in mind that I don't necessarily need to be a world champion at 50, but I want to be of that sort of fitness when I get into my 70s. I love that. And thinking about this idea of playing the long game, one of the other themes that often comes out

in your writing and your tweets is this idea that fitness is a long-term game. And again, that goes again, other things in modern culture. You know, we've already mentioned no pain, no gain, right? It's got to feel hard. But there's also this idea that we can cram stuff in. Oh, you know what?

I'm just going to sign out for that half marathon in 12 weeks and do the plan. Train hard for 12 weeks and then don't train for three months afterwards. Because, you know, I got the medal. I did the race. And one of these key ideas that I get from you, Alan, is that you can't really afford to take that much time off, i.e., you are a big fan of consistency, not just for a period of weeks or months, you're a fan of consistency over years. And you sort of share a lot of the time that actually, if you can stay consistent, week after week, month after

month, year after year, you are going to get incredible fitness adaptations, but unfortunately, most people can't maintain that consistency. Can you speak to that a little bit, please? Yeah, I think it's a very, very human thing to not be very good at pacing over a long time frame. So, you know, I've done several Ironman races myself, and they all go the same, right? When you start off, you do your swim, you do your bike, and people are just zipping by you for the first third of the race because, you know, they have this in their head that I'm going to be able to maintain this effort all the way through. And 95% of them you then see later on in the day, they were.

in fact, not able to maintain that effort all the way through. So I think that's just a very, very human thing to always overestimate what we can maintain over the long term. So, you know, I think these people, when they sign up for their half marathon in 12 weeks, they're not thinking that this is going to completely burn me out and I'm going to be wrecked and not doing anything for the next three years. I'm sure at the time, it's like, this is the starting point for my fitness journey from from here on out, but they go too hard.

They, you know, adopt that no pain, no gain mindset. And then by the time they're done with the half marathon, they're like, oh, I've got to take a breather. You know, maybe they're, maybe they've got some injuries that they're dealing with. Maybe it's just the case of, oh, that was, that was a lot when it comes to, you know, keeping up with my schedule. So I don't think that the people necessarily intend to be flashes in the pan, but they just, they tend to overestimate.

what they're going to be able to accomplish over the long term. And, you know, I think the good news is that we don't need to do these mammoth feats in order to get fitter than what we are right now. All we've got to do is beat our long-term average and just keep continuing to beat our long-term average for the smallest of little bits. And when we look at that and we look at it objectively and we say, well, how much training have you actually done over the past? year, all we've got to do is just do a little bit above that, you know, and just keep doing

a little bit above that year after year. It becomes a lot more attainable for folks. It's interesting. You mentioned Kip Chogi, who's been on this podcast twice, and I'm very, very fortunate, lucky to have had to long-form sit-down conversations with arguably the greatest marathon runner of all time. And there's so many things that I've learned from him, A, how humble he is, the fact that he still cleans the toilets in the training camp, just like everyone else. Now, even as this world champion and Olympic gold medalist,

he's very, very humble. He's very, very wise. But one of the things I never forgot from our first conversation was that he said that he never, ever sits on a niggle. As soon as he feels something when he's out training, he'll often stop,

he'll go and see his team, the physio will have a look, and it kind of speaks to what we've just been talking about. Injury as we get older is something that takes us out of the game, right? If we push it too hard for too long, as many of us do, we get injured and then we can't train for two months, or we can't play the sport we want to. And I think maybe you get away with that in your 20s, you don't get away with it in your 40s or your 50s,

or it very quickly adds up those injuries, right? So whilst we want to move as we get older, we don't want to be getting injured. And I think, yes, Kipchogi is genetically gifted for sure. He trains very well. He's got a wonderful psychology and approach to life. And I think just very basically, he tends to his body. He won't let a niggle turn into an injury. Now, sure, he's older, he's getting injured, whatever.

But in the kind of prime of his career, I think he would go like seven, eight years and almost never miss a training session because he stayed on top of things, which is very inspiring, and we might think that this only applies to the world's best, but I don't think it does. It's funny. In working with people who are just starting out and just off the couch, but they're excited and they're really committed to the training program. I think sometimes when we compare their mindset to elite athletes that I've worked with,

they're actually overcommitted. They're resolved to do the plan no matter what. And going along with what we talked about of laying stresses on top of variable, unpredictable stresses, that's really common for a lot of amateur athletes. They are just determined to do the training plan. It doesn't matter what they feel with their body. It doesn't matter if they're tired. It doesn't matter if they're sore.

It doesn't matter if their ankles feeling a little bit sketchy. They're going to do the session. And the elites and certainly the best of the elites are very, very good and very, very confident at reading their body and being like, okay, I've got this long-term plan, but today's a little funky. Today, you know, I have to make an audible here. And they really have no problem with making that audible. And I think that that is a huge element of their success

because the athletes who don't learn to do that do exactly what you're talking about. They have these periods of inconsistency where they're just constantly going from one injury. They have, you know, a period where they're not able to train properly. They lose fitness. Then they move on to their next injury and it's just up and down, up and down. Whereas somebody like Kipchurgy who has the confidence to make these calls, he's had a tremendously long sort of longevity in the sport. Yeah.

One of the other things I feel has really connected with me from your writings, Alan, is this idea about carbohydrate intake. And we probably don't have time to go deep into nutrition today. But broadly speaking, One of the things that I've really liked about your approach is that you, again, please correct me if I've sort of misinterpreted this or it's not quite worded the way in which you would word it. But it's almost thinking about my carbohydrate intake relative to my movement. So, for example, if I'm having a sedentary day, my carb intake will be lower. and if I have managed to go for a 90-minute hike,

then I proportionately have to maybe increase my carbohydrate intake a little bit because I moved more. For me, I found that very, very helpful, and I've actually seen how that tracks with my blood sugar on my CGM. Like on those days where I move, you know, on a century day, if I'm having that same volume of carbs, I can see my sugar go up. if I move for 90 minutes and then I, you know, maybe eat a little bit more.

I'm talking about whole food carbs, not processed carbs. I feel that my blood sugar stays relatively stable. So is this something you've seen with a lot of your clients that we can think about raising our carbohydrate intake relative to the amount of movement we're doing? Yeah, I think a guiding principle here is that you should eat what you're burning. and ultimately you will burn what you're eating. So it's a two-sided equation there. So, you know, folks going back to sort of what we were talking about

with the objective being we want to fuel all of our resting and low-intensity movement needs through fat, if you take in carbohydrate, your body is going to preferentially burn that carbohydrate. So you're never going to teach your body to burn fat if you're always giving it this steady stream of carbohydrate during your resting days and during your low intensity activity days. So I think that's the first thing to realize. You will end up burning what you eat and your body is lazy in the sense that it will burn the easiest things first.

So if you're constantly giving it donuts and lollies and those sorts of things, you're always going to end up burning those. things first. Does that mean, Alan, that you are a fan of, let's say, in the morning, a one-hour fasted walk? So before you have your breakfast, if you're able to go for a walk without eating anything, does that help teach your body to burn fat more than if you have a bowl of corn flakes and then go for a walk? Yeah, that's exactly what I do. So my first walk of the day will be walking the dog and I will not eat breakfast until I get done with the dog walk. And depending on how stubborn she's feeling for that day, you know, that could be a very long walk. It could be, it could be an hour long walks. So I'll get up, do, you know, get ready, take the dog out and I won't

eat until I get back from that, you know. And just that, that simple thing, that simple ability to not have to eat as soon as you get up, I think it is, it's a really positive. positive sign in terms of someone's metabolic health. And I'm really not hungry. You know, I, sometimes it'll be two hours, three hours before I eat. And I'm really not hungry. I don't feel the sort of blood sugar swings during the morning. And really through most of the data, I don't, I'm not noticing those sort of swings that I always had when I was younger and overeating carbohydrate. But Alan, if we are only in zone one, so therefore mostly burning fat. So let's see we've gone for a, you know, a relaxed walk for an hour in nature. Does that even

need factoring into our nutrition in the sense that we do, all of us have a lot of fat on our bodies, whether we're overweight or not, we have got stores of fat on our bodies. And so if you go for a one hour walk where you're only in zone one and you're not tapping into sugar burning and you're burning fats, you don't really need to replace carbs from that walk or do you? Certainly less than what most people do. You know, I think most people are overeating

in terms of what they're burning. And in the beginning, it's very, it can be very challenging because even in that walk, as we were saying, you know, people who are just getting up off the couch and just getting moving are burning carbohobon. just at rest.

So it can be a little bit challenging, you know, going straight from that to I'm going to fuel everything with fat. So I think you need to be a little bit kind to yourself when you're just getting started. But certainly after someone sort of builds up the ability to, you know, exercise at a level where they're burning the fats is the almost exclusively to fuel the effort, then you really don't need carbohydrate for those very low efforts. But usually what happens is at that point, people are like, oh, I'm getting fitter, so I want to start doing a little bit higher intensity efforts too. So then the carbohydrate comes in to fuel those higher intensity efforts. But yeah,

it's a very positive sign when you can go for an hour walk, a two hour walk, a three hour hike, and you're doing it all at a very low intensity, and you're really not feeling any sort of, you know, highs and lows in terms of the blood sugar. It's a very sustainable effort. Yeah, and very freeing. You're not dependent on having all that food with you because you know actually I'm fully capable within my body to fuel this with what it's got on board,

which is very, very liberating. Alan, I could talk to you for hours. I just love everything that you put out there. I think it's so helpful. I honestly don't know if I'd still be on Twitter at all if you didn't exist. I know you stopped posting for a few months. I don't know you don't do as much you used to do on there,

but I really think your voice is a much-needed voice in the world, and I love it. It's had a huge impact on me. If people want to, you know, get into the Alan Cousins world and read more about what you do and join your community, where would you direct them? Yeah, so I am still somewhat active on Twitter. I'm trying to work on my addiction, but yeah, I'm still there, so that would be the first place.

I do have a forum for a community forum. It's $5 a month for anyone who's sort of, you know, looking to get a little bit of feedback on their own journey. And you can find that on my Twitter. It's madcrew.forum, sorry, forum.m.commodcru. app. And apart from that, if, you know, if anyone's looking for help with their journey, I do consultations and things like that as well.

So, yeah, please feel free to DM me or email me or whatever. Yeah, and your substack is brilliant where you have released chapter after chapter of your book. I don't know if that book's ever going to be published in paper, but it's all there in your substack. I would highly recommend that people who are interested in this kind of material. you're writing is super clear, super on point. There's lots of graphs.

You make it really easy to understand. So I would definitely direct people there as well. Alan, thank you so much for making time to come on the show today. My final question to you is, I know you are used to dealing with elite athletes, but if someone has come across this conversation today, and they've recognized that, you know what, maybe they're in their late 40s

and they've realized that, you know what, I've really not taken my fitness seriously. Maybe there were factors outside their control. Maybe they were in relationship difficulties, elderly parents to look after, challenging children, busy job, whatever it might be, but something today connected with them on a deep level

where they thought, you know what, I want to start getting into fitness now. Maybe they're 50 years old and they've never done it before, and they say to you, Alan, is it too late? What would you say to them? Absolutely not. You know, I think if we look at,

I've certainly had the ability and the good fortune to work with some very high-level older athletes, you know, people who have won their Iron Man age group in the Iron Man World Championships and those sorts of people. And so many of them have, started at that exact age. So, you know, I think for a lot of folks, it's almost a benefit because people who've

gone through and have really trained hard in their 20s and 30s, oftentimes they can almost be a little bit burned out and can be maybe they had sort of a bad experience with training for endurance sports. So it can be a hard thing for them to recover from. but for those people who are just starting fresh in their 40s and 50s, there's still a lot of years left. And, you know, as I said, we're playing a very long game here and we want to be progressing through each of those years.

So it's definitely not too late. Yeah. Alan, I really appreciate you making time. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you, Ranganow. It was my pleasure. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply.

into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember when you teach someone, it not only helps them. It also helps you learn and retain the information. Now before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5.

It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I'd be consuming and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive

each and every Friday, you can sign it for free at Dr.chatsy.com forward slash Friday 5. Now, if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world, covering all kinds of different topics, happiness, food, stress, sleep, behaviour change and movement, weight loss, and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, e-books, and as audiobooks, which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment. to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week.

And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the episode notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more.