Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - Jay Shetty on Relationships, Routines & Finding Purpose #334

Episode Date: February 8, 2023

Is love something that happens magically between two people – or is it something that needs to be nurtured? Does it come from within us, or is it something we’re given? My guest today is here to help us figure out these answers and more. Jay Shetty is a former monk who wanted to share his learnings with a wider audience. He’s now one of the world’s most influential, modern self-help gurus – with a social media following in the tens of millions. He’s also a bestselling author, host of the podcast On Purpose, and Chief Purpose Officer for the meditation app Calm. I first welcomed Jay to the podcast in 2020 and he’s now back to share his wisdom on purpose and relationships to celebrate the launch of his new book, 8 Rules Of Love: How To Find It, Keep It, And Let It Go, and his world tour to support the book, which hits the UK in May.   We begin our conversation talking about the importance of purpose and how we can go about finding or refining our own. Jay also shares his morning routine which includes thankfulness, intention, meditation and exercise and explains how this helps him to live each day with more purpose. We then go on to talk about relationships and discuss the idea that solitude and self-knowledge are the foundations of love. We talk about the fact that challenges in a relationship are more often issues within ourselves; how we often take our stresses out on those closest to us – and how we can stop doing this. Jay explains why difficulties arise when we communicate what we want from a partner, but not why we want it, the satisfaction that comes with mutual growth, the importance of finding a partner who shares your values and how the qualities you attract in others, will be the same ones you use to impress them.   Whether you’re someone who is looking for love, happily single, recently separated, in a new relationship, or you’ve been with someone for many years, you’ll find nuggets of wisdom throughout this deep and raw conversation. I hope you enjoy listening. Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://www.vivobarefoot.com/livemore https://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore https://www.calm.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/334 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

I think so many people feel inadequate or incomplete because they don't have romantic love. We think of love as something we have to receive, something that we hope for, that we wish for, that's going to come to us, rather than it being something that we can experience by expressing it. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. Are you someone who knows what your purpose is? Or are you someone who's struggling to find it? Is love something that happens magically between two people or is it something that needs to be

nurtured? Does it come from within us or is it something we're given? Well, my guest today is here to help us figure out the answers to these questions and many more. Jay Shetty is a former monk who wanted to share his learnings with a wider audience. He's now one of the world's most influential modern self-help gurus with a social media following in the tens of millions. He's also a best-selling author, host of the podcast On Purpose, and chief purpose officer for the meditation app Calm. I first welcomed Jay onto my podcast all the way back in 2020, and he's now back to share his wisdom on purpose and relationships, to celebrate the launch of his brand new book, Eight Rules of Love, How to Find It, Keep It and Let It Go, and his world tour to

support the book, which hits the UK in May. We begin our conversation talking about the importance of purpose and how we can each go about finding or refining our own. Jay also shares his own morning routine, which includes thankfulness, intention, meditation, and exercise, and explains how this practice helps him to live each day with more purpose. We then go on to talk about relationships. We discuss the idea that solitude and self-knowledge are the actual foundations of love. We talk about the fact that challenges in our relationships are more often than not issues within ourselves. We talk about how we often take out our stresses in life on those who are closest to us. And of course, we discuss how we can stop doing this. We also cover the

difficulties that can arise when we communicate what we want from a partner, but not why we want it. The satisfaction that comes with mutual growth, the importance of finding a partner who shares your values, and how the qualities you attract in others are usually the same ones you use to impress them. Whether you are someone who is currently looking for love, whether you are happily and intentionally single, whether you are recently separated in a new relationship or in a long-term relationship, I think you will find nuggets of wisdom throughout this conversation. It was deep, inquisitive, authentic, and raw. I hope you enjoy listening. And now, my conversation with Mr. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. There's a lot of people, Jay, they hear these things about purpose, and they're not sure how that actually translates for them in the context of their life. So this is something you've been talking about for years. So as things stand today, Jay, if someone was to come

up to you and say, I don't know what my purpose is, can you help me? What would you say to them? So Rangan, I think that's a fantastic question because the first thing I'd say is that I believe there is definitely a pressure to pursue your purpose. And I think sometimes the pressure to find your purpose actually paralyzes you in the process and in the pursuit. And so I think when we are guiding people or talking about purpose, we have to have very thoughtful and mindful conversations around it. Now, if someone comes up to me and says, Jay, I don't know what my purpose is. Can you help me, as you just put there, I would focus on the definition of purpose that comes from the Sanskrit term dharma. In my first book, Think Like a Monk, I talk about this concept of dharma,

which has many different definitions. But one of my favorite definitions that it has is eternal purpose or eternal duty. It means something that you're naturally inclined to do, something you have proclivities and propensities for. And I think both you and I love the Japanese ikigai, the reason for being, why we live. And dharma and ikigai have a lot in common. And so I always tell people, look, purpose is this big, scary word that needs to be simplified. And so my first simplification is, let's see if we can discover four things. The first is what you're passionate about, what you're really interested in. And if you're like, Jay, I don't know what I'm passionate about.

I don't know what I'm interested in. We go to the root and we say, well, what are you curious about? What is it that you think intrigues you, even if you're not passionate about it yet, if that's a strong word? The second thing I'd say is, what are you naturally good at? What do you already have expertise or skills in that you aren't even aware of, or you're not even conscious of? So many of us have so many talents, so many hidden gifts, but we keep placing them on the back burner. The third thing I'd ask is, is there a pain in the world that you want to solve? Is there a problem in the world that you feel really calls to you? Some people don't find their purpose through their passion. They find it through

their pain. They find it through a stress they want to alleviate in the world, a challenge they want to remove from the world. And then the fourth and final one is, as Ikigai says, is can I get paid for it? And that's a fourth and final consideration because I don't think purpose has to be something you have to get paid for. It can be something we dedicate our weekends, our evenings, our vacations to as well. And so the way I define it is that your passion makes you happy. And when you use your passion in the service of others, that's a purpose because it makes them happy.

So how can you use your gifts and your talents and the things you love to improve the lives of others. That's what purpose really is. And now we're not looking at it as this big word. We're actually looking at it as this broken up equation of what am I passionate about? What am I excelling at? What problem do I want to solve? And then if I can, how can I get paid for it? And then if I can, how can I get paid for it? How does your morning routine, which I think we spoke about the first time you came on my show,

how does that help you tap into your purpose or, I guess, continually refine your purpose? Because I think there's something really powerful in what you do each morning that many of us can learn from. So my morning routine is made up of four key habits. And these four habits I have in the form of an acronym called TIME, T-I-M-E. And I know you're a fan of acronyms and things that are memorable and easy to share as well. And I know we have that in common. And so I've always loved your work and reading your books too. And so T-I-M-E, the T stands for thankfulness. I start my day with thankfulness and gratitude. And the way I do that, Rangan, is I have a little post-it note next to my bed that says,

what are you grateful for? And so the first thing I see in the morning is this post-it note that says, what are you grateful for? It's a question back at me. I remember when I used to have not a bedside table, I'd have it on my ceiling. I'd have it on my bedside wall. And what I love about that

is you can write down any question you want. This comes from the idea that we have 60 to 80,000 thoughts per day. And studies show that 80% of them are negative and repetitive. Now, that's quite scary to look at. And the truth is you can't control 60,000 to 80,000 thoughts per day, but you can control the first thought of the day and the last thought of the day. And so for me, when I wake up to that post-it note, I am training myself to make the first thought of the day a grateful one,

a thankful one. The I in my acronym stands for intention or insight. And I try and set my intention for the day. Usually my intention is I want to be of service. I want to be able to give love. I want to express love. I want to be an ambassador of purpose and compassion in my life, in my day. And then there could be a more specific intention. Like today, it's like, well, I hope I get to share energy with Rangan. I know Rangan's been going through a lot of personal things today. I hope that my energy, he's choosing to spend time with me. I hope that that can serve

him, serve his community. And so I'm setting a really powerful intention. The M, T-I-M, M is for meditation. I meditate every morning. I do three types of meditation, which is what I was trained in as a monk. It's meditations I teach. It's breath work for the body, visualization for the mind, and mantra for the heart or soul. And so I do my three techniques. What I find is really what I'm trying to do in the morning is align my body and mind. Because what I find is, Rangan, we usually wake up in the morning and our body is ahead of our mind. How many times, anyone who's listening or watching, have you ever felt where your body's running around, but your mind is just still in bed?

Or you experience the opposite. You wake up and your mind is racing, trying to do everything, but your body is feeling exhausted. And so for me, breath work brings my body and mind together. Visualization allows me to visualize the day. What am I going to do? How am I going to show up? Who are the people that I'm going to meet? What kind of energy are we going to exchange? And then the mantra or sound meditation is the repetition of sacred sounds, affirmations, that again, become my internal dialogue. And then E is exercise, movement. At the moment I've been hiking. I've been doing a 45 minute to an hour hike every day to get some really good cardio in, to get my heart rate moving. And so that's my morning routine,

pretty much five days a week. It's probably a couple of days a week that I'm a bit more flexible. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I also am a huge fan of morning routines. I think the way you start the day really sets the, I guess, the dial on the compass for what's going to happen that day. You mentioned all these beautiful words like intention and integrating or aligning your body and mind. I think these are really beautiful concepts for people to think about. For that single parent who feels that they're out of control and they're rushed off their feet, and they hear that and they are thinking, Jay, hey, all right for you, buddy. Maybe you've got a life that allows you to devote that kind of time to yourself each morning. I don't have that time. What do you say to them?

The first thing I'd say is I think that's a really fair point. I am very grateful for having the time I spent as a monk and the training I received early on in my life that has made me made certain choices. And at the same time, I'm not a parent yet. So just to point that out to everyone that, you know, I don't think I'm going to be able to keep up with this exact morning routine when I have kids. And I don't assume that I'll be able to keep it throughout at all. And my wife and I often talk about that when the topic of kids comes up. I think the first thing I'd say is you may not be able to do all of those and you may not even be able to do any of those, but I'd ask yourself one question. What's the one thing I can do today that is for me?

As a parent, you're probably doing a million things a day that are for your kids, maybe for your partner. If you're a single parent, then maybe you doing a million things a day that are for your kids, maybe for your partner. If you're a single parent, then maybe you're taking care of a family member. Maybe you've got busy work schedules. What's the one thing you can do today that's truly for yourself? It could be as simple as, I'm gonna sit and have my cup of coffee.

I'm gonna sit and have my cup of tea. I'm gonna make sure that I listen to an episode of Rangan's podcast. Like, what is that one thing I can do today that is truly for myself? Because what we're really talking about here, Rangan, is the point of a morning routine isn't to have a perfect morning routine or to have a perfect setup. The reason for having a morning routine is to create some certainty in an otherwise uncertain day. That is the reason for a morning routine. It's saying, I know that something is going to be

foundational in a day that is going to be full of chaos. I'm going to bring some sense of control into a day that will not have control. And that could be as simple as one thing you do that sets you into a positive, healthy rhythm of the direction you want your day to go in. And so it can be as simple as, I have my, I'm the chief purpose officer at Calm. And every day on Calm, I do a seven minute meditation. And it's aimed at anyone

who has no more than seven minutes a day to get an insight, to be grateful, to breathe. And literally in seven minutes, I guide you through my own morning routine, which is two to three hours. I teach within seven minutes. And so I think there are lots of simple tools and techniques today that can give you the same benefit without the same amount of time. Yeah. I mean, I love that, Jay. I really appreciate how you shared that. I appreciate your honesty. You mentioned when you have kids, you're not sure you'll be able to keep up with that. I think most people would agree with you. Although, you know, I've been a father for 12 years now. I have a pretty diligent morning routine that I have learned over time.

I'm a better person, I'm a better father. I'm a better human being, frankly, when I do that. So I do think there are ways to create those routines, even when you are a parent. So if and when that happens, we can probably talk about that at that point. I can certainly share some of my experiences. I'll be coming to you for tips.

I'll be coming to you for tips, Rangan, for sure, for sure. The reason I started off, Jay, talking about purpose and morning routines is because the new book, Eight Rules of Love, which is such a good read. I struggle to see how anyone would read it and not learn insights about themselves, let alone their relationships, insights about themselves. And we won't have time to go into all the rules, but rule one, I thought was really, really powerful. Let yourself be alone. And when you first hear that, you can interpret that in many different ways. own. And when you first hear that, you can interpret that in many different ways. But this idea of solitude being a foundational practice that we need to better ourselves and to better

our relationships, I think it's really, really powerful. In fact, you write in the book that solitude is the beginning of love. What do you mean by that? So I think it's obvious, Rangan, but we also don't always think about this, but life starts on our own, right? Like we are born on our own, unless you're born as a set of twins and then you don't have that. But a lot of us start our lives alone. We spend time alone. I think even today, talking about kids, I have a lot of nieces and nephews and friends, children and everything. And I've found that parents have found that when their kids are entertaining themselves, it's great to leave them alone. Let the child entertain themselves. Let the child explore.

Let them be curious. It's beautiful to see how a child can be so self-satisfied often we feel we have to entertain the children and keep them entertained but sometimes kids can do that for themselves and it's a beautiful thing but it's something we lose as we grow older and I think it comes from the idea Rangan that most of us inherently believe that being lonely or being alone is a negative thing. And I think this comes from our training in society and at school. For example, if you were the kid at school who ate alone, you were called a loner. If no one came to your birthday party, you were unpopular. If you go to a wedding and you don't have a plus one, people say, oh, poor you. Are you okay? And so we constantly look at people who are not paired up with someone as less than. This amazing

research study with college students found that they asked college students to rank how they thought their happiness would change if they were in a serious relationship or if they weren't in the next five years. College students said that they believed that if they got married or if they got into a committed relationship in the next five years, that their happiness would be an eight out of 10. That's what they predicted. And they predicted that if they didn't get into a relationship, if they stayed single five years after they graduated, their happiness would be a three out of 10. So those were their predictions. They thought if we get into a relationship, we'll be an eight out of 10. If we don't get into a relationship, we'll be at a three out of 10.

The reality is they tracked and spoke to the ones who stayed single. Their happiness was at a seven out of 10. The point being that people were much happier being single than they thought in their mind, which means we have a mental construct around how being alone is a negative thing. And so solitude is the beginning of love, going back to your question,

because in solitude, you learn to love yourself. And when you learn to love yourself, you apply that same process when you learn to love someone else. When you learn to love yourself, you learn to love the parts of you that are seemingly unlovable. When you learn to love yourself, you get to learn yourself despite all your flaws and mistakes. When you learn to love yourself, you learn to love the truth of who you are. And by the way, when you fall in love with someone else, you're going to apply that same process back on them. You're going to have to learn to love them despite their flaws and mistakes and their regrets and their challenges. But if you've not done that for yourself, you will really struggle to do that for someone else. And so solitude gives you the time. It gives you the space. It gives you the capsule, like the

vehicle of figuring yourself out so that when you finally meet someone, you're actually able to much more quickly understand, are we operating at the same vibration, the same frequency or actually is this a person not right for me? And so I think you actually save yourself a lot of energy in the long term. I hope that answers your question. Yeah, no, it does. And it just makes me think that this is one of the major problems out there, isn't it, at the moment,

Jay, where a lot of us don't actually spend any time with ourselves. You know, you mentioned your morning routine and how you take a bit of time to prime yourself for the day, to set your intention, to at least control that first thought. Whereas for many people, their experience of life is that there is no routine. They jump straight into emails or conflict or problems. And so the way they're showing up in that relationship, there's never been any sort of intentional time to sort of think about how you're going to show up. You just show up and you think, oh, my relationship's not working. Maybe it isn't working, or maybe you haven't taken the time to do something to enable it to work, or at least enable it to function a little bit better. The other thought that came up for me, Jay, is that a lot of people, and I've got friends like this, who jump from relationship

to relationship. When one relationship ends, and I'm talking about a love relationship here, you know, they can't be alone. They don't want to be alone. And so they look to fill that hole straight away. And I think this is something you write about as well in the book about if you are at the end of a relationship or there's been a breakup, don't rush in. Take time to kind of observe, you know, see what happened, reflect, heal. You talk about emotional injuries and physical injuries. It's really beautiful. Maybe you could speak to some of those concepts a little bit. Yeah, I mean, Rangan, I love the point you just made right now about the idea that so many of the challenges we have in relationships

are potentially challenges we actually have within ourselves. I think if everyone who's listening or watching could just reflect for a second, and it might just be reflecting on the last 24 hours, when you say something to your partner that you later regret, how many of you, in all honesty, and I'll raise my hand too, how many of you said something because of your own insecurity or your own trigger? How many of us say something we don't mean because of some lack of meaning within ourselves? How many of us say things that hurt someone else because of some hurt we're going through that day? How many of us reflect our stress onto our partner? Now, you're not, and this is where we go wrong, Rangan. I'm going to give a

personal example of how I went through this. I live a high performance, productive, efficient, purposeful life. I have for quite a few years now. What that means is I am constantly dealing with also high levels of stress and monitoring and managing them in high doses. What that also means is that if uncontrolled or if not communicated effectively, there are times when I can be snappier and more irritated at my wife because she's the person that I'm around all the time. And what I started to realize, Rangan, was I was becoming someone I didn't want to be because when it came to the person I love most in this world, who's my wife, I was being irritable. I was being snappy. I was releasing my stress, not in a angry, loud,

shouty way. That's not who I am. But even if it was passive aggressive, it could be silent or subtle, but it was still not healthy. And I started to look at that and I think, wait a minute, if I'm trying to be a good person, if I believe I'm a good person, why am I acting in ways that are not aligned with myself? And I think everyone can relate to that. When you've had the stress of your day or your boss is giving you a hard time or the kids haven't been well-behaved today or whatever it may be. And now you and your partner are the ones sharing all that stress. And I started to realize a couple of things. The first thing was managing stress was as important as managing my relationship. And that's the point you've just raised. You think the challenges in your relationship, chances are the challenges in

how you manage stress. When I've meditated effectively, when I've rested and slept my eight hours, seven to nine hours a day, when I've set my intention, I am less likely to be bothered by the levels of stress. And the second point that I understood was that I'm not going to be able to perfectly manage stress all the time because I'm not perfect, I'm human, but I can communicate that to my wife ahead of time. So I'll give an example. I'm traveling for the next couple of weeks, so I'm getting ready to travel. And I'm not with my wife right now.

She's in London because she has some family, someone's not well in her family. And if we were together, what I'd be saying to my wife is, hey, I just want you to know, the next couple of weeks are going to be stressful for me. So if you find me kind of frantically running around or hectic, just know that I'm going to be experiencing a bit of stress. If you want my undivided attention, just let me know and I'll be there for you. But I just want to preempt the fact that I'm going to be slightly more stressed out next week. So if I'm

not as present, if I'm not the same as I usually am, just don't take it personally. It's not about you, it's me. And I think saying that and communicating that ahead of the time just saves the other person from having so many other feelings about what's going on. And then you can actually deal with it better. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about in this conversation was communication, because weaved throughout your entire book, for me at least, is this idea that you have to be able to communicate effectively. As you just mentioned, none of us are perfect, right? No matter how well we're doing in our work or whatever we're doing in home life or professional life, we all get stressed from time to time. And here's the irony, which you've just sort of highlighted. Often, we take out those

stresses on the people closest to us, Which, if you look from the outside, it's rather bizarre, isn't it? Why would we take out our stress on the people we love the most? And my current view on this is because I think in some ways they're our safe space. We feel, oh, I don't have to perform at the moment. I'm in my safe space where I can just say it like it is. But in some ways, it's disrespectful because we're doing it to that person we love the most. So I really appreciate you sharing that. And the other point there, Jay, for me was, you know, it's so beautiful that you've got to that point now where you can say that to your wife in advance. Because if you don't say that, now where you can say that to your wife in advance. Because if you don't say that, as you just highlighted, you get into these situations where because it's not been expressed or you don't care

about me, you know, this is going on. And you know, these little niggles become bigger and bigger and bigger like a snowball. So how do we learn? Because I'm sure as you've expressed that example, people will be going, yeah, I've done that before. I've done that before. Oh yeah, I can remember that time when my partner did that to me. And I think this speaks to solitude again. How do we learn how to regulate our emotions and when to say these things in advance of things blowing up? Yeah, great, great question. And I'm really enjoying this conversation because of how raw and real it is. And I'm really appreciating your reflection on it as well. I was just thinking that the people that come first in our lives experience the worst

of us because they're our first opening of expression of how we feel. The reason why you perfectly, brilliantly linked it back to solitude there is because when you take time out to reflect on what's happening in the next seven days, if you found a 30-minute block on every Sunday and you looked at your week ahead and you looked at what's going to stress me out, what's easy, what's hard, when are my gaps, when am I free, you're going to have a much more bird's eye view of your life, which you can now explain and communicate with your partners. So for example, Radhi and me will often go up to each other on Sunday and Radhi will come up to me and say, oh, by the way, Jay, on Wednesday, I'm going for a workout in the evening. And on Friday,

I'm seeing the girls. And I'll be like, okay, great. Wednesday, I'm going to take out time for solitude. And Friday, I'm going to see the guys. Now we've had that communication. We don't get to Wednesday. And all of a sudden she goes, oh, you were expecting to have dinner with me. and all of a sudden she goes, oh, you were expecting to have dinner with me. Oh, sorry, babe. I've already set up a gym, I'm going to the gym tonight.

Or we get to Friday and I'm like, oh, I planned a date night for us. And she's like, oh, sorry, the girls told me they were going out. And now you're dealing with conflict in the moment. So solitude gives you the space to actually reflect a week in advance and say, what do I need to communicate with my partner? what do I need to communicate with my partner? What do I need to communicate with my teammate? What do I need to communicate with my husband,

my wife, whoever they are, to say, this is kind of what it looks like. This is what I'm thinking about. Shall we plan a date night? Often I'll say to Radhi, you know what, Radhi, for the next four nights, I've just got work things every night, but Saturday and Sunday, should we go away for the weekend? Should we do this for the weekend? I've thought about that. And I think what often happens, Rangan, is that we're waiting till the moment to communicate. And another mistake we make is we communicate what we want, but we don't communicate why we want it. So for example, if you say to your partner, you know what, I just need some time on Wednesday night to be alone. If you told your partner you just wanted to be alone, your partner, the first thing that goes through their mind is, they don't want to spend time with me. Did I do something wrong?

me? Did I do something wrong? What's going on? Do they need space? So you ask for space or you ask for time or time alone, and you never explained why you needed it. Now, if you said to your partner, you know what? I've got a really big presentation coming up on Friday. So Thursday night, I just need to be in the zone. I just need to be focused and I just need to be ready. Now, all of a sudden, they have context. And I think so many of us communicate what we need, but not why we need it. Yeah. If someone's listening, Jay, and saying, you know, Jay, I get you. I do this work on myself. I do this work on myself. I meditate.

I have solitude. I'm patient and caring with my partner. But they always seem to be mega stressed. And no matter how much I change, they're not changing. How would you advise them to approach their relationship? would you advise them to approach their relationship? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy

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that people will change for us. We think that if we change, someone else will change back. We think of love as that exchange when we don't realize that anyone who changes a habit or a practice changes it for themselves. Now, I will say that, for example, if you are setting a good example when it comes to taking care of yourself, chances are it rubs off on your partner. I know that with me and Radhi. So Radhi's always been very dedicated to her workouts for her mental well-being and her physical well-being. And when we got married, I was someone who was very focused on my mental well-being with mindfulness and meditation, but I wasn't necessarily someone

who loved working out. I played sports when I was growing up and that was my workout. And as I got older, I kind of got lazier. Now, when I would see my wife be dedicated, she would not negotiate with her morning workouts. At the beginning of our relationship, it used to play on my insecurities. I used to say, oh yeah, well, I'm working hard and you'll get time to go to the gym. Or I'd say, oh, I don't even have time to go to the gym because it would affect my ego. And then I started to realize, well, it upsets me because I'm not even willing to make that time for myself because of how important it is. And so without her even knowing, she was inspiring me to work out more. And today, working out and my physical health has become such a top

priority. And it's not because she forced me to go or told me to go. It's because she set a good example. Now, let's say you're setting a good example, but your partner's stressed and they're not doing certain things. I think one of the first things I'd say is we usually like to tell our partners what to do. And we might say to them, oh, you need to listen to that podcast with Rangan and Jay. And they're like, no, I don't, right? I don't want to do that. Or someone says, oh, you need to start doing this breath work that I learned from so and so teacher. And then the partner's like, well, I don't want to learn from that person. I think what we don't realize is we've got to help that person take the next step in their journey, not the next step in

our journey. And the next step in their journey could be introducing them to books, teachers, podcasts that appeal to them. One of the things I often tell people is the reason why I sit down with so many different people on my podcast is because I believe that personal growth and self-development is so broad. And so, you know, just in the last month, like Lewis Hamilton came on this week. And I know that so many people who are Formula One fans were learning about purpose through Lewis Hamilton or a couple of weeks ago, Kevin Hart was on the show. Now, you know, Kevin Hart's a comedian. He's known to make people laugh, but people came and they learned about the man behind the movies. And so to me, people's entryway into growth and into creating less stress in their lives is not always going to come through the same route that

it came for you. So the first thing I'd say is find out what inspires them. Find out what it is that helps and supports them. What are their things? And if you really love them, you'll know what they connect with. The second thing I'd say is help them work on their stress, not work on your relationship. You want them to change how they are with you. But actually what's stopping them being their best with you is that they're not being their best selves for themselves. And so let's figure out the root of their stress and sit with them, talk to them, understand them. Don't go up to them and say, you're always stressed out. What's wrong with you? Our life is great. I'm good to you. That will put them on the defensive. You want to go

up to them and say a few things. And this is really beautiful. This is from a study that was done in schools about how to give effective feedback in a way that doesn't defeat someone. I use this in my company. I use this in my relationship. I use it everywhere because it's not just for students at a university. It literally applies anywhere. They found that there were three key things you had to say. The first thing you had to say is that we have really high standards here. Now, you can't say that in a relationship. So how would you translate that? You would translate that to be like, I know that we have something really special here. I know that we value each other. You're acknowledging the fact that underlying all this stress, there is a deeper, real relationship. I know that we have a real relationship. I know that we have a special bond. I know we've committed many years to each other. You're setting the standard of what we have. The second thing you say is, I trust we can live up to that standard.

I trust you can get there. People need to hear and feel. So it's like, I know you're going through stress right now, but I know you don't want to feel it. And I know that you can get beyond this stress. And the third is, let's figure out how to get there together. What do you need? How can I support you?

How can we go through this together? And I think so often in relationships, it's so funny, Rangan, so often in relationships, people actually feel more alone because they don't feel their partner has the time to see them, to understand them, to hear them. And they feel like they're fighting that battle

all alone, even when they sleep right next to someone. Yeah. I mean, there's just so much fantastic wisdom in what you've just said, Jay. You know, I love what you said at the start there about, you know, our job really isn't to change our partner. It's to help support them on their next journey of their growth, which I think is a really important point for us to sit with. I love what you just said about feedback. I had Rick Rubin on the show a couple of weeks ago, the record producer. So cool, yeah.

And it was a beautiful conversation. But one bit I think that I think about a lot is he talks about giving feedback with the artists that he's worked with. And although it's a different form of relationship than let's say the relationships that maybe we're talking about at the moment, let's say with a partner, for example, actually some of the themes are very, very similar. It's about making it about the idea, hey, we're both trying to make a phenomenal album here, right? So when I give feedback, the feedback isn't you that you wrote a bad song or that lyric isn't good. No, it's together we have the shared goal of a beautifully crafted, excellent album. And so I think there's a similarity, again, speaking to what you said about people can get entry points through different people and through

Lewis Hamilton or Kevin Hart. And I think very much like you, that's why I like to talk to lots of different types of people, because I think we can all learn from any human being, actually. There's always something to learn from someone. So that's really powerful, Jay. There is so much I'm itching to talk to you about, but I think if we talked about everything in the book that I wish to speak about, we'd be here in about five hours still. It's that thorough. I do want to get to rule four shortly. Your partner is your guru, because I think a few of the things you just mentioned really speak to that. But before we do, I want to jump right to the end of the book, because I wasn't expecting this part in the book. It really took me by

surprise, and I literally loved it. Would you mind if I read a few lines from chapter eight, read a few lines from chapter 8, from rule 8, which is love again and again. We want love in our lives, and we naturally assume it should take the form of romantic love, but it's a misconception that the only love in your life is between you and your partner, your family, and your friends. It's a misconception that life is meant to be a love story between you and one other person. That love is just a stepping stone. Having a partner isn't the end goal. It's practice for something bigger, something life-changing, a form of love that is even more expansive and rewarding than romantic love. Ajay, I've underlined that in your book. This is pretty profound that that love with our partner

might be a stepping stone to something bigger. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? Yeah, this was actually a revelation that deeply came to me. It's an idea that I understood before writing the book, but it's a revelation that came through the process of writing the book. And that's why I love obsessing over, this book took two to three years to put together, and I love obsessing about ideas for that long because you plant the seed and then they grow into something surprising by the end of it. I was really looking, Ranganath, the greatest love stories of all time and the greatest acts of love of all time. And I started to realize that most of the stories we would consider the

greatest stories of all time, like Romi and Juliet, are myths. They're not real. They're fiction, right? It's completely made up. And no one really benefited from that love story. Like it ends badly and it doesn't really help anyone or it doesn't improve anyone's life. It doesn't improve anyone's life. And so I started to look at what were the love stories that improved people's lives. And I realized the challenge is we'd put romantic love on such a pedestal that even if people had beautiful relationships with their children, with their parents, with their colleagues, with their teams, maybe even with their country. You know, when you look at what Martin Luther King Jr. did for the world, that was love. That was an act of love. That was a love story.

But we don't present it that way. But that was a love story. If not, then what else was it where someone was willing to sacrifice their life for the benefit of others? And we have countless examples of that in history, where people have gone above and beyond to help other people. And so I started to realize that the greatest acts of love are not just romantic. They can be parental. They can be brotherly. They can be friends. They can be leadership. And I think we limit love to one person and maybe a couple of hours a day. We say, I'm going to go to work and that's not a place of love. I'm going to come home and I'm going to love

my family. And when we live in that way, we limit love. There's a beautiful story. I love Zen stories. And in this Zen story, the teacher asks the student a question and everyone who's listening can pretend they're the student. The teacher says, if you could give $100 to one person or give $1 each to 100 people, which one would you do? And the student says, you know, it doesn't really matter. I'm not sure. I have no idea. Which one would it be? The teacher says that although it's wonderful if we can give $100 to one person and it will change their life, they said the right answer is to choose to give $1 each to 100 people. And the student said, why?

And the teacher replies, two reasons. The first is you get to impact 100 people. The second is you get to practice loving and giving 100 hundred times. And I love that idea because it's the idea of you only get better at love and you only get better at giving and you only get better at compassion the more you extend and practice that love. And so for some people that may be their school and a good way to think about it is, let's say Narangan, how many children do you have?

Two. Two. So you have two children, and I'm guessing you love your two children, obviously. I do. How much would you say you love them? If I asked you to quantify, how much do you love them? How much would you say you love them?

Oh man, how much? Oh man, how much. First of all, I feel it's almost impossible with words to describe the love that I have for my children. I can't imagine there's anything I wouldn't do for them. I feel all the love that exists inside the world times it by infinity. And that's how much I love my children. That's my attempt in the English language to say how much I love them. I love that. And that's so beautiful. And I think any parent would agree with you. So now let's take that. It's a lot of love you have for them, right? So think about how this actually plays out in real life. If you love your children and you want them to have a great childhood,

you have to love their school and their friends because they're going to grow up around those people. So in order to care for your children, you have to care for their school. In order to care for your children, you have to care for their school. And in order to care for the school, you have to care for the area you live in.

And when you care for the area you live in, you have to care about your town. You have to care about your city. you have to care about your country, you have to care about the world. And so I'm not saying everyone has to go out there and do something for the world. But what I'm saying is that if we deeply love our children that much, our love has to extend beyond them in order to protect them and the world they grow up in and live in. And I think that's what I'm trying to get at in Love Again and Again is that we need to practice loving again and again. And the more we can expand our radius of love and our radius of care, the more our love is truly justified and true.

But if it's limited by those two people, it actually ends up being a disservice to them as well. Yeah. I mean, what you're talking about is something I feel I've only really got my head round in the past few years. I feel one of the first things we have to do, and you do talk about this in your latest book, you almost have to undo some of the myths you've absorbed growing up. You know, in many ways, the word love, at least the way that many of us understand it, is quite a limiting word. You know, I don't know about you, Jay, I even try and practice this on social media. If someone's ever leaving a gnarky comment or, you know, maybe disagreeing, but you can see in a very triggered

way disagreeing. It's now like, can you choose love as your first approach here instead of getting triggered back? And it's not always easy, of course, but can you practice, oh, I wonder what they're going through. I wonder why they're feeling so upset at the moment. And I think you speak about this in the introduction. You say, love is a daily effort. I want to develop the habit of love with you in this book, right? So it's kind of a habit. It's a practice. You're, I guess, talking about entry points in. The entry point in for many people will be, I want a better relationship with my partner. Let me pick up Jay's book to help me with my communication, help me with certain practices I can do with them. But actually, that's just the entry point because you will end up, if you follow that path, expressing that love and compassion, ideally to everyone, but certainly you'll widen

out that circle of love and compassion, which can only be a good thing. I also think this section is really powerful because there's a lot of people, Jay, who are either single, maybe not by choice, but many people these days are single by choice. They're like, no, you know what? I've tried all that. I don't want it. I'm happy being by myself." But this chapter, I believe, and this rule makes it very inclusive. It's like, yeah, because a lot of the time when we talk about relationships, people who are intentionally single feel left out. That's not relevant to me, but I think it's really beautiful how you put that section in, because I think it will help

single people feel very much included in the conversation around love. Yeah, I think so many people feel inadequate or incomplete because they don't have romantic love. And that's like you saying that your love for your wife is greater than your love for your kids. Now, I'm sure you'd say, well, they're different. They don't even compare or compete. But in the hierarchy of our psychology, we are putting, as a society, romantic love on the pedestal. And again, like you said, my book is aimed at helping people find romantic love, keep romantic love, and let go of the challenges that come with breakups and

heartbreak. But at the same time, I had to get to this point in the last chapter because I think we all want to live in a world where we're surrounded by more love, more kindness, more compassion, more empathy, more understanding. And I also want people to experience more love by expressing it. I think we think of love as something we have to receive, something that we hope for, that we wish for, that's going to come to us. But love is actually experienced. If I say to you, Rangan, I am loving this conversation, I am experiencing love just by saying that because I'm feeling it inside now you may also feel that

and say Jay I'm loving it too and that's great but even if you don't say it back I still get to experience love by saying I'm loving this conversation and so I think we again limit love to being something someone has to give us rather than it being something that we can experience by expressing it. Yeah. And I think there's a fear sometimes, isn't there, to express these things, whether it's to our partner, to our friends. I think we touched on this the first time we spoke on my podcast about how important it is to express gratitude. And sometimes we can feel it, but just when we go that extra step and tell someone, hey, you know what? I

really appreciate what you did there. That was really quite powerful. I mean, on that, Jay, I kind of feel, and you're probably uniquely positioned to answer this in many ways, because if you're, I guess, your Indian family backgrounds, you grew up in the UK, you now live in LA. backgrounds. You grew up in the UK. You now live in LA. So you've got a whole mix of different cultural kind of exposures within you, right? And, you know, Brits are known for their stiff upper lips and, you know, traditionally, and a lot of Brits have struggled with this concept of, you know, expressing gratitude or telling your friends how much they mean to you. I'm sure you'll know this. It's not a very British thing to do. What is your take on that? Do you think it's changing? And have you noticed a difference

in how people approach that in America? Yeah. So I'll be honest and say that one of the things I love about being with my friends back at home, all my best friends in London, and I was just there for the holidays and I spent a ton of time with the lads. And it was, one of the best things is our love is shown by how deeply we can banter with each other, right? Like as the deeper you can cuss someone and diss someone, the more you love them and the more you can take it back. And I love that. Like to me, that's so much fun.

And me and my guy friends do it all the time when I'm back in London. I would say that my feelings about how I want to live are less impacted by Indian, British, or American culture. And they're most impacted by my monk life. And the reason I say that is because I think in every country, you can find lots of different people, lots of different identities, lots of different cultures. But the way I live is what I learned as a monk. And for me, the idea that someone could die at any given time makes every relationship in my life that much more important.

And I don't know about you and anyone who's listening, but I don't want to regret the last thing I said to someone. And I don't want to regret the last thing they heard from me. to regret the last thing they heard from me. And so I live that way. And with everyone in my life, I want the last thing they heard from me to be like, I love you. You matter to me. You're important to me. That doesn't mean I'm saying that 24 hours a day, but it does mean that if we've had a meaningful interaction, I want them to know that because I would hate to live with the fact I had a friend many, many years ago who had the worst argument with his dad. They didn't argue often, but they had a really bad argument. And they didn't speak for a couple of weeks. And then a couple of weeks later, his father passed away. He wasn't old. He wasn't in hospital. That wasn't the natural course of events. No one saw

it coming. And my friend held onto that pain for so many years because he hated that the last conversation he had with his dad, who he loved completely, was an argument. And so to me, it's not about whether we're British or American or Indian. It's looking at life through the lens of reality. And I think as Brits, we are very good at being realistic. Well, there's nothing more realistic than death and loss. And so living with that ideology and living with that understanding, we actually get to love people a lot more deeply. And the other thing I'd say is that I also want people to know how amazing they are while they're alive. I think we celebrate people too late. I think too many people in this world are celebrated far too late. And, you know, I had the fortune of interviewing Kobe Bryant a

few years ago, literally two months before he passed away, three months maybe before he passed away. I had no idea. Of course, no one did. And I think about that whenever I always get asked this question, like, which interview would you love to redo or which interview, like, would you do wish you could do again? And I'm like that one, because had I have known, and it's like, but we should always know that. And it's not a morbid way of living. It's actually a more magical way of living because you're like, this is such a special moment. Yeah, I completely agree. Thank you for sharing that, Jay. Very, very powerful. I think there's a, I don't want to get the quote wrong. I'm pretty sure there's a stoic phrase to do with, when you kiss your kids goodnight, imagine it's the last time you're

going to see them. Something like that. Please forgive me if I've got that quote slightly wrong, but that's certainly what I remember from it. And it's actually quite triggering for people sometimes when they hear that. And I've thought a lot about it, and I really like it actually. And I think it really speaks to what you've just said. And I do think about this when I'm kissing my kids goodnight. It's so easy to rush it. I've got work to do. I just need to put them to bed so I can get and do my emails. And again, I'm human, so I do fall into that trap, but I try and remind myself. Yeah, it's a nice reminder to go, hey, you know what? What if? And it's not, as you say,

it's not morbid. It's just trying to help you be more present to appreciate that moment. And, you know, it really has extra poignancy at the moment for me, because in the past few weeks, I have gone through some really challenging times, which I shared with you just before we spoke. And my mum, who for many years, my brother and I have helped to care for, this is why we live where we do, we live nearby. Mum was admitted to hospital around Christmas and she was seriously unwell. To the point where, you know, for a few days we thought that was it. Thought mom's dying and I couldn't stop crying for days. And I went through a sort of grief process. Now mom has miraculously recovered.

She's back home with a load of challenges. She's back home with a load of challenges. But every time I leave mom, you know, every time I'm there and I say goodbye, I remember three weeks ago, Rangan, you thought you were never going to have another conversation with your mother again. I would have given my right arm back then. So even if mom's frustrated or she's asking for a lot and I've got

other stuff on, so far, I've been really proud of myself. I'd be like, okay, I've been patient. I've been smiling. I've been calm. And I thought you would have given everything for this three weeks ago. You thought you were never going to have a conversation with your mum again. And, you know, dad died 10 years ago. I started to imagine what's life going to be like with no parents. So when you speak about love like that, when you talk about make these interactions as if they were going to be, as if they're the last time you're going to have those interactions, I think it's really powerful. And I don't think it's morbid at all. I think, as you say, it does make our day-to-day life much more magical. Yeah, no, really well said. And if it is anxiety-inducing for people, I do understand

that and I empathize with that. And that's where I think we're talking about this subtle spot where it's like, you're not thinking, oh my God, I'm going to lose them. Oh my God, I need to tell them I love them. That's not the mood. It's what you said so wonderfully was like, I want to be fully present with this person because I love them. And something you were talking about earlier, I think Rangan, I've learned something. I've moved and lived in so many different cities at this point in my life. I've lived in Mumbai. I've lived in London. I've lived in New York. I now live in LA. And I've had to make a lot of new friends at so many different stages in my life. Obviously, some of my best friends of all time, my best man at my wedding, everyone's back in London.

And I still talk to my best friend probably three times a week back in London. And we figure out the time difference. But I've had to make so many new friends along the journey that I've learned to just to say how I feel. I've literally had to say to people as friends along the journey that I've learned to just, to say how I feel. I've literally had to say to people as an adult, hey, I think we'd really connect. Let's spend more time together. Or, you know what? I think we'd make really good friends.

Like, should we connect more? And it's like, it sounds so stupid when you're looking at it from a childish view of like, oh, Jay, you sound desperate. And I'm like, well, I am for connection. I am. Like, I want real human life connection. And if that makes me look like a loser, Jay, you sound desperate. And I'm like, well, I am for connection. I am. I want real human life connection. And if that makes me look like a loser and desperate, hey, I'll take it because

I'd rather live my life having really beautiful relationships with people than live my life pretending like I'm too cool for that, or I'm too good for that, and I'm too important for that, and then missing them when they're gone. And I think sometimes we're just living in this false safety. We're actually scared of being open with people. And again, I'm compassionate. I'm compassionate to people who struggle to show love because we struggle to show love because we're scared of losing that person. That's what it is. It's not that we're trying to act cool or we think we're better. It's because we're actually scared. If I really open up

to this person and I'm vulnerable with them and then they're not here anymore, I'm going to feel really all over the place. And so I get that. It also comes from a self-preservation. it also comes from a self-preservation. Yeah. Has your wife read this book yet? So my wife just finished reading Think Like a Monk, I believe. It's been two years now since the book's been out. And she's read bits of it. She's read bits of it, not all of it. I always say my wife is the number one supporter of who I am, but the least subscriber and listener to what I do. But she told me recently, because she's been in London because of her family and I've been in LA, she literally just started listening to my podcast. And she's been telling me how much she's enjoying it, which is actually really nice. We've been married for seven years. The podcast is three and a half,

no, four years old this year. And it's funny when after four years, you start listening to it. She's like, this is really good. I get it now why people... I'm like, you're hilarious. It's humbling and adorable at the same time. It's beautiful. I think that's a really interesting point there, Jay, where a lot of relationships, I think, fall into traps when we think we have to have the same passions. We have to do the same things together. You know, you could potentially expect your partner, your wife, to listen because it's a podcast that's loved by millions all over the world. It's helping so many people. And you could potentially be offended that,

how come all these other people who I don't know are listening, but my dear wife is not? And I'm not sure if this is in the book or whether I heard you say this in another conversation a few years ago, but I think you said one year after you got married, that I think you said one year after you got married, you got a good break in your work life, like a really good break. And you got the impression that your wife wasn't that happy about it. I wonder if you could explain that situation, because it really speaks to what you just said about your podcast and your first book, and your wife not reading them or not listening,

because I think it gets us into a lot of trouble in our relationships when we feel our partner has to do and love the same things as us. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. It is called The Thrive Tour.

Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health. And together, we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour.

I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline

in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast.

But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. I'm so glad you brought this up because it's something people struggle with. And I want to tell you my example. I also want to tell you about a client I worked with because I've been doing so much relationship coaching over the last few years, hence this book as well. But yeah, with my wife and I, I want to go back a bit more. When I met my wife, when we first started dating, which is nearly 10 years ago now, I didn't have a job. I didn't have any money. Actually, I was in 18,000 pounds worth of debt because of my student loan. I was getting turned down and was turned

down by about 40 companies. This is when I'm dating my wife and she knows all of this is going on. My wife comes from a wonderful family and she's dating a guy who has just been a monk for three years, doesn't have any job prospects, has no money and is in debt and doesn't know what to do because 40 companies have said no. And my wife chose to be with that guy. And I like to remind myself, I like to remind others, I like to remind friends and family of that because a lot of the time today people will be like, oh, Radhi, you're so lucky to be with Jay. And I'm like, no, no, no, you don't understand. would be like, oh, Radhi, you're so lucky to be with Jay. And I'm like, no, no, no, you don't understand. I'm lucky because she chose to be with me when all I had to offer was myself. And I'm

almost getting teary because it's so real because my wife chose to be with me when all I had to offer was myself. And she backed that guy. And so when I look at it now and when I think back to that, when I first started to experience success in my career, I would almost metaphorically hold up my trophies and metaphorically hold up my achievements to her and say, we should be celebrating this. Look what I did. Look what I achieved. Look where I, look where I got to. Like, let's, let's celebrate how amazing I am and what I've done. And she wouldn't respond to that. Like that wouldn't bring her alive. And often I'd sit there and I'd think, well, maybe she doesn't, she doesn't care about me. She doesn't love me. She's not celebrating me. She doesn't read my stuff. She doesn't listen to me. And I started to realize that I wanted my wife

to love me for what I achieved when she loved me for who I was. And now when I ask you that question, logically, do you want to be loved for your achievements or do you want to be loved for your character? Which one do you want? It's so obvious. It's so glaringly obvious, but I think we want to be loved. Our ego, actually, that's what it is. Our ego wants to be loved for our achievements, but our heart wants to be loved for our characters. And when our ego overtakes our heart, the ego demands that respect and adoration when all the heart wants is true affection for who you are. And I saw this play out with one of my clients who's a speaker and an author as well. And he was saying to me that he goes, Jay, when I go and speak on stage,

I have so many women who are attracted to me, who want to get to know me, who adore me, who respect me, who compliment me, who think I'm incredible. And he goes, when I go home, my wife doesn't even care about that. And so I went through this same process with him where I was like, do you want to be loved for your performance or do you want to be loved as a person? And I think when he sat with that, he realized that there will always be people who love his performance, but they may not love him as a person. But someone who loves you as a person, it doesn't matter whether they love his performance, but they may not love him as a person. But someone who loves you as a person, it doesn't matter whether they love your performance or not, because they're with you for the right reasons. They're with you for the deepest truths of who you are. And so

to me, that was a big revelation and it saved so much stress and anxiety that I had, because now I take pride in the fact that I'm with someone who has my back no matter what happens, whether this stays, goes away, whether I'm relevant, irrelevant, insignificant, significant. My wife doesn't care about that stuff. Isn't that love? Like, isn't that what we really want? Sorry for getting emotional. I don't think I've ever got emotional in an interview. You just really like, we're not even in the same room. And you fully, fully got me. I was like literally on the verge of tears there, but yeah. It's powerful, Jay. There's so many elements of that I could echo with, resonate with.

You know, you wrote about this in the book and you said you are lucky that she fell in love with you when you had nothing, right? And you just beautifully explain and elaborate on that. But let's flip it. Let's flip it to someone who's listening or watching right now who's got success, who's got a good job, earning good money, got a nice house, got the societal metrics of success, but is single. Perhaps they worked so hard, they neglected to nourish important relationships. We know this is very, very common. People get stuck into work. They're trying to get up that career ladder. and the price they often pay is that they don't create meaningful relationships. So for that person who wasn't lucky enough, let's say like you

to meet your wife when you literally had nothing, you had minus 18,000 nothing, and they go, but now I don't know if when I meet someone, they want me because of my position and my money and my salary. How would you help them find someone who loves them for who they are, not for what they are? Yeah. Yeah. There's a hidden rule in the book that isn't one of the eight rules, but that's why I call it a hidden rule because it's really powerful. But I put it inside one of the chapters and it's called, you attract what you use to impress. impress. What I mean by that is whatever you use to impress someone, that's what you're going to attract into your life. So if you're someone that flaunts your wealth, it's likely that you'll attract someone who comes to you for your wealth. I had a client who was saying to me, Jay, every woman I date is just into me for my money and what I have. And I said,

well, can you take a look in the mirror? And they were drenched in designer clothing, the biggest designer bag. And I was like, well, what do you expect? You're showing that part of yourself. Now, I'm not saying you're not allowed to love fashion or you're not allowed. I love fashion. I love brands. You're allowed to like nice things. But I said, if that's the things you talk about when you're on a date, if that's the things you reference, if you're always talking about how much you made last month and the amazing expensive trip you went on, or you order a fancy bottle of champagne or wine or whatever it may be to the table, like what message do you think you're sending? Now, you may say, Jay, I'm just trying to show I'm confident or I'm trying to show I'm able,

but you have to get really clear on how you show confidence and how you show ability. And I think that what we have to understand is if we use those very physical ways of attracting someone, it's very likely that you're going to bring that person closer. I think another thing I'd say to them is, what are the values that you have and what are the values of someone you want to be with? And where are you going to find a person of equal value? Often I find you find people of equal value through people you know of equal value. You know someone who knows you deeply, who loves you. My sister was our wing person for me and my wife because my sister was really good friends with my wife. And my sister is one of my best

friends. My sister is a person of value. She's the one who was the wing person between me and my wife. So I trust her. What's a project of value? Maybe there's a project at work. Maybe there's a project in your community. Maybe there's a project you can take on that's of similar value. And thirdly, what's a place of similar value? Is it a charity? Is it a passion that you have? Is it a sport you love? You're going to meet people in places of similar value, projects of similar value, and with people of similar value. And I think often, the problem is we value ourselves based on our achievements. And so we flaunt them, attracting the wrong people only to regret it. And so it's better to present yourself as you are

and present yourself with who you are in order to attract someone to it. Again, we're going against societal conditioning where we have to kind of give roses and diamond rings and all these things. And you do outline those stories with the traps you fell into. You do talk about them in the book, which is super, super interesting. It's interesting what you just said there about your sister basically introducing you in many ways to your wife. And something I'll be thinking about recently in preparation for this

conversation is, obviously, we've both got Indian families as our backgrounds, right? Both of us, I think, were born and brought up in the UK, but our families are from India. And it's interesting, I don't know how your parents got together, but my parents had a full on arranged marriage. You know, my dad was working in the UK. He'd emigrated here. He'd been here for about 10 years and he basically took his annual leave. His family had arranged for him to get married. He literally flew home to India for, I don't know, a week. He met my mum, I think on the Saturday for just a cup of tea. And on the Sunday, they got married. And then a few days later, dad flies back home to work,

and about three months later, my mum comes over, and they set up life together. That was really interesting as a kid growing up, as an immigrant kid, struggling with identity, trying to fit in with, you know, your English friends around you. I was almost, I think I was a little embarrassed once I realized that mum and dad had never met. I'm like, oh, that's just not cool.

You know, people need to meet and fall in love and have romance. And, you know, the things you see on TV and in films. But as I get older and as I reflect, and I'm not saying mom and dad's marriage was perfect by any stretch. You know, I'm not saying it was or it wasn't. I'm just, I'm not trying to put it on a pedestal. But what I am saying is there are many different ways. I think this really speaks to a lot of the messages in your book, Jay.

There's many different ways to love. There's not just one way that we get to experience love. And as you just said, your sister introduced you to the lady who now is your wife. Yeah. And we think about, it's either a love marriage or an arranged marriage, but actually for many years, even in Britain, families have put dinners on and introduced, marriage or an arranged marriage. But actually for many years, even in Britain, you know,

families have put dinners on and introduced, oh, you know, I think you'll really get on with that family's daughter. It's the right age. It's always happened somewhere along the way. We've kind of lost all that and thought we're just going to randomly meet someone in a bar that we've never met before. Go on a date and suddenly it's going to all mash up. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's a study. I think it was from like, maybe like 30 years ago. No, up until 30 years ago, I think the research shows that you are likely to meet someone that you spent your life with within five miles radius of your home. Like that's how close to home it was. Now, that's not a good or bad thing, exactly like what you're saying. I'm not saying,

oh, things were better in the past and everything's going. I'm not someone who's painting that picture either. But I do think you're spot on that I don't think we're open. I know clients who've met because they care about the same charity. I have friends that have met because they both love cycling. I've had friends that have got together because someone introduced them. And I think when we limit it to say, well, I'm just going to hope I bump into someone or I'm going to go on the apps casually and see if I find someone, I think the casual approach to love doesn't work because it's a game of odds. You've got to meet a lot of people to figure it out. And I think today the problem

is with the paradox of choice that we both know about and we talk about, this idea that now there's just plenty of fish in the sea and you actually know that, oh my gosh, I mean, of fish in the sea. And you actually know that, oh my gosh, I mean, anyone who's on this app, there's just so many more options. And what I've realized is that love isn't about finding the right person. It's about finding the person that you want to make it right with. And I think love is so much more about a choice of are we energized and enthusiastic to figure this out versus I'm going to find someone who perfectly matches and fits. And so I think now we're looking for this perfect match, this perfect fit, this perfect connection. And that alienates us because every time we meet, it's like slightly wonky. It's slightly doesn't fit. There's a slight

issue. And we're like, oh no, there will be someone who is all 10 of the things. And I'm like, well, I don't think there is. I think what there is is, you know what? We have enough energy, excitement, and enthusiasm for each other that we're going to figure it out every single day. And we're going to bring that energy every single day. And so I think that that's what's alluding us to the challenges that we face in trying to meet someone. Yeah. I want to move on to rule six. Sorry, rule four, your partner is your guru. Because, well, I love all the rules. This one, I really, really like. And you say in the book, we don't usually think about our partners as teachers or guides, but none of us can see ourselves or the world clearly on our own. I think that's very powerful.

And relating to what you just said there about love being a choice, in that chapter, in that chapter, you write about your experiences as a monk, and you say as a monk, you choose your guru, right? Then it's not allocated to you. You choose your guru. So we're talking a little bit about how love is a choice, how you chose your guru, how all monks do, and how our partner ends up being our guru. So effectively, we're choosing our partners to be our gurus, right? So for people who are getting confused, perhaps you can elaborate what exactly you mean by that. Yeah, so this is definitely probably one of the most counterintuitive chapters in the book, because everyone reads that and goes, God, my partner ain't my guru.

What am I going to learn from them? And I don't want them to know that because if they know that, they're going to start telling me what to do. I think the first thing is to define the word guru. I'll do this through experience of it. Our gurus in the monastery sat in our classes. Often my gurus were twice my age, if not even older. A 70-year-old man or one of our female guides as well would sit at the back of a class by a 25-year-old. They'd sit with us in meditation. They'd sit on the floor and eat with us. They would sleep on the floor with us. The guru was not this hierarchy of position in how they were treated or how they were lived. It was a position that was held with humility and held with compassion and held with encouragement and support. So just to alleviate any idea that a guru is just someone who's

falsely revered or is acting holier than thou, that is not a guru uh a guru is not judgmental or critical but supportive and encouraging i think a lot of people think what gurus mean they have to like spot all your flaws and everything the reason why your partner is your guru is because a guru in spiritual terms acts as almost a mirror to your inner self. And that's what I believe our partners are. Our partners are like mirrors because you see the best and worst of yourself in your interactions with your partner. Your partner knows all your flaws, right? My wife knows whether I actually meditated. My wife knows what time I slept. My wife knows how messy the kitchen is. My wife knows whether I did my laundry or not. My wife knows. She actually knows me in the deepest

way. And therefore, she's one person in the world who can constantly help me grow. If life is about growing, if life is about becoming better. And so you're choosing someone who you're willing to learn from and you're willing to grow with. So you're going to grow with them. You're going to grow through them and you're going to grow together. And I feel that often we don't think of relationships as growth. We think of them as pleasure. We think of them as fun. We think of them as just enjoying ourselves. And I'm not saying there isn't, of course, pleasure, fun, and enjoyment in every relationship. But I think, and especially at your stage,

when you have kids, when you have family responsibilities, you realize that your partnership becomes so much more about growing together. And the satisfaction from growing together is so much greater than what you felt on the first date. But you can't explain that to someone who's starting out. They'll be like, no, no, no, this is so fun. It can't get any better. But what I'm trying to encourage in this chapter is

the growth that you will make because of your partner physically and mentally and emotionally is actually what relationships are about. Relationships are far more about enlightenment than they are about entertainment and enjoyment. And the enlightenment that comes from being in a committed relationship is the greatest satisfaction that comes from it. And you're going to learn practical things along the way too. What I'm saying is the deeper lessons you learn from your partner, and I teach in the book how to be a guru, how to be a student, depending on what type of partner you're with. So it's very deeply laid out. I really feel that most people who've been together, and I learned this from speaking to couples who'd been together for 20, 30, 40 years,

they all said that they had learned phenomenal lessons through their partner. That was like their favorite thing. And so to me, that's what I was trying to get at in this chapter. Yeah, it's a brilliant chapter. It really is. And, you know, I guess I love it because I've experienced a lot of it as well. You know, I've recently just celebrated 15 years of marriage with my wife, and it's a very different relationship from what it was when we were dating over 15 years ago. Completely different. But when you adopt that approach of mutual growth together, it never gets boring because there's always an opportunity for growth, right? There's always a niggle or something you disagree on or something you have a different perspective on.

And if you can shine the mirror up and go, what can I learn here primarily about myself? It's arguably the best. It's a masterclass in your own inner world, isn't it? You've got that mirror around you all the time. You get to be a black belt in yourself if you approach your relationship in that way. Yes, yes. And that's what I'm, exactly, you've fully understood what I'm trying to get at. It's what is life ultimately about, if not about growth, learning, and joy. And I argue that growth and learning are the greatest joy because when you grow and learn, you can deal with all your problems better. See, what we don't understand is that entertainment is, and I love entertainment, by the way.

I'm not hating on entertainment. I love TV. I love movies. I'm a big fan of all of that. But entertainment is an escape. And when you escape your problems, you come back to them with less time and the same amount of knowledge. When you elevate, when you learn and you grow, you come back to your problems with more skills, more insights, and more tools. So life becomes more joyful. And so you have this choice every day to escape or elevate.

And your partner can either be your escape or be someone you elevate with. Now, go on escapes, go on dates. I'm not, of course, me and Radhi love to travel together, of course, but the core spirit of that is growing and learning. So it's not that we don't go out for dinners, of course, that's all great, but don't go out for dinners. Of course,

that's all great, but don't lose the spirit and the heart of we're trying to help each other become the best versions of ourselves and reach our potential. That's the kind of person I want to be married to. Before we wrap up our conversation, I wanted to briefly touch on the three commonest sources of conflict that you write about. These are the three things I think many people will relate to this, that couples fight about money, bringing up kids, and sex. And as a doctor, something I have seen many, many times, people would come in to see me and they would talk about their sex lives and the frustrations, whether it's a different desire compared to their partner,

what does that say about them? Let's not go through all three. I don't think we'll have time for that. But particularly on the conflicts around sex, I think this is really, really common. And in your practice of coaching people and coaching through their relationships for years, I'm sure this must have come up. What is really going on when there is an issue around sex in a relationship? Yeah. So the first thing is that sex is an extremely vulnerable act and we often don't think about it in that way. We assume it's just is, but you can't be physically vulnerable with someone when you don't feel emotionally safe with them. And I feel a lot of people don't feel emotional safety either within themselves or with their partners to be that intimate and vulnerable with their partner. Or the quality of that exchange is not as high because of the lack of emotional security and emotional

vulnerability. And the reason that I found that that had come about, Rangan, is because I talk about the four E's of intimacy in the book. And what I found was that if you look at most couples over years, the number one activity they do together, by no surprise, is watch TV together. That's the number one thing couples do every night. We watch TV together. We do this too. So I'm not beyond this or better than this. Now, if all you do is watch TV together, what's happening? There's no vulnerability. There's no intimacy and there's no shared experience. You haven't watched the show and then talked about it and dissected

it and emotionally connected. You've watched it, gone, ah, that episode was all right. Okay, look forward to the next episode, switch it off, go to bed. There's no connection. So bonding over entertainment is a very low form of intimacy. To increase our intimacy, I talk about experiences, going to date nights, going to vacations, traveling together, having new experiences together helps you learn new things about your partner. See, most of us are just used to our partners. We watch our partners wash the dishes, do the laundry, clean the house, take care of

the kids. do the laundry, clean the house, take care of the kids. You're watching your partner do the same old four activities for potentially 40 years. If you don't see your partner do anything new, how are you going to have a creative spark, a moment of attraction? How are you going to fall in love with them again when all you see them do is do old things. Higher than that is experiments. I recommend that couples do things that they're both novices in. Go into a pottery class because neither of you knows how to do pottery. Go into a painting class because neither of you knows how to paint. Go out and try a surfing lesson if you can because neither of you knows how to surf. It doesn't have to be big or small. Go to an escape room. Go and do something

where you both are not experts, where again, you get to learn about a new side. The reason why we've lost intimacy and connection is because we think we know our partners. We think they're the same. We think maybe they're boring. Maybe we've lost that attraction to them. And the fourth and final stage is go and do some education and engagement together. If you're learning and growing together, you're going to feel so emotionally close that the physical closeness is just a byproduct. And in engagement, if you can go and serve together, if you can go and make a difference together, the connection you feel is so much more powerful. So those are reasons why you can both work on stuff.

But often we find when it comes to sex, one of the biggest things is a personal sense of dissatisfaction. Someone's not happy with their body. Someone's not happy with their own purpose and passion. Someone's going through their own disconnection with themselves. Sometimes it's not about you at all.

And I think so often we make it about us. That's what I've seen in relationships with themselves. Sometimes it's not about you at all. And I think so often we make it about us. That's what I've seen in relationships with coaching. When someone doesn't want to have sex with you, you make it about you. And you go, oh, you don't have sex with me. And they're like, I just don't want to have sex. I still have to figure out what's going inside of me because I'm healing trauma. I'm healing stuff from my parents. I'm healing my ex-girlfriend, boyfriend, and relationships. And I think we don't talk about any of these things. And so I think we're often expecting someone to be vulnerable and intimate with us when we are not emotionally safe and secure with them. Yeah. Such wonderful advice, Jay. It really is another fantastic book. I think it's going to

help so many people. It's been a real joy talking to you. Just to finish off, Jay, for anyone who is listening to that thinking, yeah, you know what? There's something there. Something isn't right in my life with my current relationship, whether it's someone who's single and they want to get with someone or whether someone's in a relationship and they realize that maybe, you know what, we've taken this for granted a little bit. Things are getting a little bit stale. It isn't what it once was. I think there's a lot of hope and inspiration in what you've shared today and with what's in your book. But just to finish off, do you have any final words of hope for that person?

Yeah, I would say that I would want everyone to have a check-in conversation with your partner about this and about your relationship every month. I'm sure you connect about how the kids are doing at school. I'm sure you connect about the plumbing issues in the house. I'm sure you connect about who's doing the gardening and the laundry and the cooking and the cleaning, but are we connecting on the quality of our connection? and the cleaning, but are we connecting on the quality of our connection? And so the way I would recommend to do that is start every conversation with us and we, not you and me. Most conversations start with, you never do the dishes. This is how you make me feel. Start your conversation with, I really want us, and I often say this to Radhi, I really want us to have an incredible relationship. Let's check in about what we're both willing

to do to get there. What is it that we are willing to do to have a beautiful experience of this relationship in our lives? And I think if everyone could start that conversation with their partner in a non-intimidating, a non-critical, a non-judgmental way, because most of our conversations about checking in are, look, you know what, you just, you know, you never fill the gas up and I'm late, or this, you never do. It's always, you never do this or you always do this. Right? And so when our language becomes you never or you always, now we've created a debate and a fight and an argument. Whereas when our language is, we have something special and let's figure out how we can continue to help each other grow and become better, that approach, anyone who truly loves you and is with you will open up with you.

And you may have to be patient and ask that a few times, but be patient and ask it a few times. Don't get frustrated that they don't respond immediately and they aren't jumping for joy saying, I'm going to read Jay's book with you. Like that's, that's not the reaction you want. Be patient, be, be steady. Like this is something that we should have been doing from day one, but we're doing it on day 1000 and that's okay. Start at day 1000. Jay, you're doing incredible work. You're changing so many lives. It's a fantastic book. That's coming on the show. Rangan, I want to say this to you because I know how much it feels when I hear this feedback and I want you to leave it on the show is I've been doing so many interviews. That's one of the best

ones I've done. And that's because even, and I really struggle with Zoom nowadays because, you know, I've been trying to do more in person, but I probably, I feel so present with you. I feel so heard by you. I feel like you deeply digested the book, which is, you know, so fulfilling as an author. filling as an author. And on top of all of that, I feel like your reflections on the book and your digestion of what you've read is so on point that this conversation has been so meaningful to me. And even though you're miles away and we're both, you know, it's early for me, it's late for you, where there's so many things and you've got personal stuff going on, so do I. It's like, there's so many reasons why this conversation could have been rushed and, you know, whatever, like just kind of getting through it. And it's actually been so special.

And I want to just say that's because of the energy that you brought to it today and the consciousness and the work and the practice. And anyone who listens to you every week, I just want them to know how much value they're getting. You're such a world-class human. And I think this is the time I felt it the most in knowing you. And so I just want to share that. And I want you to leave that on there for everyone to hear, because I think it's very rare to get me emotional in an interview, but it's also, well, not rare. I think

it's pretty important. I don't think I've ever, ever been on the verge of tears in any interview I've ever done. Um, but I've also just felt like I've really felt connected to you and the message today. So, so thank you. Thank you for that gift. I, I really value that. Hey, I appreciate that Jay so much. Thanks man. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, do think about one thing that you can take away and start applying into your own life. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that

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