Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - Rick Rubin On Creativity, Authenticity & Living A Meaningful Life #327

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

This week’s guest is regarded as one of the all-time music greats. Named on Time magazine’s list of the ‘100 most influential people in the world’, he is none other than the legendary record producer, Mr Rick Rubin.   Whether you know the name Rick Rubin or not - it is almost certain that the music he has been involved with making has made its way into your life at various points. Having worked with a huge variety of different artists in very different genres - Tom Petty, Beastie Boys, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Adele, Johnny Cash, Jay Z, Neil Young - to name just a few, he is one of the most celebrated record producers of all time. But I think one of the reasons that Rick has reached an almost mythical status across the world is because of his Zen-like manner and his artistic approach to life.   In his new book The Creative Act, Rick says that we’re all artists – and he defines art as whatever our ‘curated output’ in life is. And you don’t have to be a musician, or even a music fan to appreciate this book (or this episode), because it’s really about the art of living.   We talk about how his artistic life philosophy applies to health. He shares his own path to wellness - how changing his diet, living in harmony with his circadian rhythms and seeing a nutritionist - helped him lose over a third of his body weight and gave him his vitality back.  We also touch on the similarities between creating beautiful records and creating optimal health. Rick also shares how suffering from depression has actually left him more grounded and empathetic, and why he is such a big fan of saunas and cold-water therapy.   Just like in Rick’s book, there are all sorts of thought tangents to follow in our conversation, and I think, what you will hear and take away, will hugely depend on what you need to hear in your life right now.   We talk about the value of deadlines, the beauty of imperfection and whether it’s OK to be motivated by success. We also touch on authenticity, values, and his firm view that ‘the audience should come last’ in any creative endeavour.    This really was a special conversation, full of timeless wisdom, from a remarkable man. If you’d have told the teenage Rangan that he’d one day be sitting down for an in-depth conversation with Rick Rubin about why medicine is more art than science, I don’t think he would have believed you - and yet, this is what you are about to hear - so strap yourself in, get yourself ready and enjoy! Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://www.athleticgreens.com/livemore https://www.vivobarefoot.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/327 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider with any questions you may have. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

We are in control of our own lives and we can make different choices and if the things in our life are not bringing us joy and happiness, if our career that we've devoted all of our lives to isn't bringing us joy, we can change them. We have our own power and we can make a change and it takes courage, but it's in everyone's best interest for us to take care of ourselves. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. Today's guest is someone who I feel very fortunate to have spoken to. He's regarded as one of the all-time music greats. Time magazine has called him one of the 100 most influential people in the world. He is none other than the legendary record producer, Mr. Rick Rubin. Now, whether you know the name Rick Rubin or not,

it is almost certain that music he has been involved with making has made its way into your life at various points. He's regarded as one of the most celebrated record producers of all time. He's worked with a huge variety of different artists in very different genres. Tom Petty, Beastie Boys, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Adele, Johnny Cash, Jay-Z, Neil Young, to name just a few. But I think that one of the main reasons that Rick has reached an almost mythical status across the world is because of his zen-like manner and his artistic approach to life. Now, I actually recorded this conversation all the way back in September 2022 when Rick was in the UK. I was fortunate enough to have

been sent an early copy of his brand new book, The Creative Act, which I have to say is truly sublime. Now, in the book, Rick says that we're all artists, and he defines art as whatever our curated output in life is. And I can assure you the content in this episode is relevant for you, whether you are interested in music or not. In our conversation, we talk about how his artistic life philosophy applies to health. He shares his own path to wellness, how changing his diet, living in harmony with his circadian rhythms, and seeing a nutritionist helped him lose over one third of his body weight and gave him his vitality back. We also touch on the similarities between creating beautiful records and creating optimal health. between creating beautiful records and creating optimal health. Rick also shares how suffering from depression has actually left him more grounded and empathetic, and why he is such a big fan of

saunas and cold water therapy, something of course I covered in detail on my recent podcast with Dr. Susanna Soberg. Just like in Rick's brand new book, there are all sorts of thought tangents to follow in our conversation. And I think what you will hear and take away will hugely depend on what you need to hear in your life right now. We talk about the value of deadlines, the beauty of imperfection, and whether it's okay or not to be motivated by success. We also touched on authenticity, values, and his firm view that the audience should come last in any creative act. This really was a special conversation, full of timeless wisdom from a remarkable man. If you'd have told the teenage Rangan that he'd one day be sitting down

for an in-depth conversation with Rick Rubin about why medicine is more art than science, I don't think he would have believed you. And yet, this is what you're about to hear. So strap yourself in, get yourself ready, and enjoy. And now, my conversation with Rick Rubin. I read a lot of books, maybe two or three a week, just to prepare for this show, basically. prepare for this show, basically. I think it's very rare that I picked up a book that has resonated with me, I would say on a deep visceral level, as quickly as yours has. I think it's maybe the time in my life, the way I'm experiencing it, what I'm looking for at the moment. But what really strikes me as interesting is on the surface, it kind of seems as though it's a book about art,

but actually it seems more to me about being a book about how to live yes i would agree and then as i think about the content it's it sort of comes up for me that art certainly the way you describe art in the book art is a metaphor for our lives how do you define art i'll say it's our curated output so we can live in a way where we're living in an artful way where we're engaged in paying attention and making each choice count. Or we can live in a almost like sleepwalking through the day, which many of us do. Many of us do just go along.

Just repeat yesterday again. Go along. Just repeat yesterday again. And I suppose the principal argument of the book, although it didn't set out to be this way, is that the way we choose to live in the world impacts our ability to make more beautiful things. It's less about the making and more the being. And through the being, the making is a...

It's like a reverberation of it. It's not the primary. I didn't know that before starting the book, honestly. it's like a reverberation of it. It's not the primary. I didn't know that before starting the book, honestly. It came through the process of trying to understand how decisions have been made over the course of my life that yielded good results creatively. And it revealed itself through the process of the book. You have been involved with the curating of many music albums

over the course of your career, some of the most famous albums on the planet what was it like working on a book compared to working on music um felt felt very much out of my depth uh with music i've done it long enough where um i have a sense i want to say i have a sense of how it works even though it's still this magic process that we have no control over. But because of 35 or 40 years of doing it, it's not a total unknown. Whereas the book was much more of an unknown stepping into it. And I've never put out anything with my name on the front of it before. I'm always the, you know, I'm essentially an invisible coach. Sometimes people know about my involvement, but I'm a behind the scenes participant in the projects that I am in.

This is the first time that it's actually me and I'm the person talking about it. Usually the works that I work on, I rarely talk about them because the person whose name's on the front of the record talks about them. So it's been an interesting, different experience. And finding words to explain something that I don't know can be explained and that I don't fully understand is difficult.

Yeah, that's where I think... It's very evasive. It's like I'm describing smoke and it's hard to describe smoke. I think that's where the magic for me in this book is. I guess you're writing about an experience you're writing about the way you have experienced art the way you see art through your lens you you have possibly the best opening to any book ever nothing in this book is known to be true it's a reflection on what i've noticed not facts so much as thoughts. I love, love, love it so, so much. And I think one of the reasons I like that opening so much is,

you know, I've been a practicing medical doctor for 21 years now as we're having this conversation, Rick. And the more patients I see, the more people i'm able to help the more i realize i don't actually know that much and some of the best clinicians and doctors i've met also share the same view like you know the more i know the more i realize i just don't know and i'm always open to be i'm always open to being surprised by something a patient tells me or something a patient experiences and actually i think there are so many similarities between art the way you describe it in your book and medicine the way i like to practice it which is i think what is drawing me to it so much that That's beautiful. I didn't know that. And that's,

um, that really lands with me in a great, in a great way. I hope there are more people in the medical field who have, have that feeling. You used the term invisible coach before. Yeah. Which I think is a really beautiful way of thinking about certainly what i've read about you i've consumed as a fan many of the albums you've been involved with some of them have played huge parts of my youth growing up at various times and i was thinking well how can rick Rick can do hip hop and rock and metal and whatever genre you are helping that artist to be themselves? Yes. Now, how do you help an artist to be themselves if the artist themselves doesn't know who they really are?

the artist themselves doesn't know who they really are? Sometimes they often don't know who they are. And they often tell you who they are without knowing they're telling you who they are. So really through conversation, I imagine very similar to, do you spend, when you get a new patient, do you spend time talking to them? Absolutely. Okay. And I imagine they tell you things that light up for you as, okay, I know what's going on here. 100%, yeah.

Yet when they're telling it to you, they have no idea. Yeah. It's exactly the same. It's exactly the same. It's exactly the same. If you really listen, people tell you what they need, what they want, what their dreams are. And they'll tell you, I don't know what I want. I don't know what my dreams are. I don't know who I am. And then they tell you exactly, this is who I am. This is what my dreams are. But it's almost like sometimes we're too close to be able to see ourselves. It's very difficult to see ourselves.

It's funny, just a few hours ago, I had a conversation with a chap called Bruce Lipton, who wrote the book, The Biology of Belief. And it was a wonderful conversation. And Bruce talks about the conscious mind and the subconscious mind and how 95% of our lives are driven by our subconscious patterns. But what really connects with what you were just saying there is we were talking about how we can see those patterns in other people very clearly. You can see in our partner, in our children, in our friends, you're just like your mom,

you're just like your dad, but it's not so easy to see it ourselves, is it? No. No, it's too close. And same goes in working on things. When we're creating something, we can get into it to a point of tunnel vision to where through the singular focus of working on it, we lose perspective on what it actually is. So it's something that's helped that an artist who writes their own material might find helpful

to have someone like me to bounce it off of. They might be too close to it to truly see what it is. Yeah. And it's helpful to have someone say, when I read these lyrics, this makes me feel this. Is that what you're, is that? And sometimes they'll say, no, not at all. Not at all.

Not only no, not at all, but if that's what you got from it i have to change it yeah and other times it'll be yes that's exactly what it means that's what i want it to be and sometimes it's no that's not what it means but it doesn't but that's fine too you know it's it really each case depends on um there's no right or wrong in any in any of these art decisions um it's just helpful to have a an outside source mirroring back what's going on and it either resonates or not did you have an invisible coach to help you with your work in this book? Because it sounds like that's what you offer to other people.

Because as you just beautifully said, we can get too close to the work. So did you have people around you to help you maintain that perspective and distance? Absolutely. I had people helping along the way in different capacities. Ultimately at the end of the project, Scott, who's the editor at Penguin Press in New York, was really helpful in the final touches of what worked and what didn't.

But all through the process, I started working with one writer and then working with another. I ended up working with many people over the course of the seven years of working on the book. And it went through lots of changes and iterations on the way to get where it is. on the way to get where where it is but it it really helps to have have uh people who know more than you do about the thing that you're working on help has that been your experience with books how's how's it worked yeah um 100 like initially like i've written five books now okay and the funny thing is well a couple of things come up for me as I say that if you'd asked me

seven years ago do you have a book in you I might have said I think I've got one I think I've got one book in me. Yes. And what I've learned through this process of writing a book a year for the past five years. I can't imagine that. Well, you say that, but I guess you've done that in your field in music, right? You've probably helped. So it's, I guess whenever it's in a different field,

we see it differently. And I want to talk about deadlines and all kinds of things because it all sort of plays in um but i've i've come to the belief that humans are infinitely creative yes and that when i've finished one book and i've it's gone off to print and i've done a round of interviews on it i feel like i've i've solidified those thoughts. I've shared them in the world. And then I've emptied the space in my brain

for new ideas to come in. And then I'm suddenly seeing new ideas everywhere. But if you'd asked me a few years ago, I'd have said, no, I can't. I've just got one. I've got nothing else to share. But in terms of your question, Rick, one of the things I've learned,

I remember the first time i sent an edit into penguin i thought yeah i'm happy with this and came back with all these comments um not clear this there and initially i think i found it hard and that's probably an ego thing and what i've learned over the last few years is that, you know, these edits are great. They're absolutely fantastic. You don't have to agree with them all, but don't be attached to your idea too much. Just listen to what people have to say, then really tune in and go, actually, do you agree? Is it helpful? So I've had a love-hate relationship with feedback. I think it's in a good place now.

But I think the problems I initially faced, if I'm honest, and I do have a tendency to be a bit self-critical, but I think they were to do with ego. What is it like for you when you receive comments about some of the work that you've worked on, some of the words that you've written? I'm open to hearing them and um it in in every case it seemed to lead to it getting better yeah i would agree with that

because even if you don't necessarily agree yeah even the thought process and going why don't i agree well oh yeah but actually there's an element of truth there which resonates so i and there's a big theme in the book is you talk about art being collaborative but you must have come across ego i imagine in your career have you come across ego and how have you managed it um absolutely i think part of the secret of collaborating with someone who's uh has an inflated ego which is comes along with the territory of you know if you go on stage in front of 20 000 people screaming for you every day. Yeah. You can, that can fill you up. Um,

I think a lot of, uh, having critical, serious, critical conversations has to do with taking the person out of it. And, um, we talk about it in the book,

the, the, the more the comments or the more specific and external they are. So we're talking about a song. If I say your words aren't good enough, that's really a personal affront. Yeah. But if we have the lyrics out here, we're looking at the lyrics together. And the idea is together we're going to look at this and see is there anything that either of us can see that can make this better it's different it's like we move it and and we get very specific and it's not

your lyrics it's these lyrics you know that We have these lyrics here. Or whatever it is. The more that it's outside of us. If someone tells you an idea and you say, I don't like that idea, that's personal. But if someone makes a model of something and you say, well, I like this, but I don't like this, you're talking about a model. You're not talking about the person. And by the way, none of it's personal. That's the important part. It's making it clear we're working together for the best thing to occur,

and none of it's personal. We're on the same team, and we're working together on behalf of this outside object. Yeah. That same principle applies in relationships as well as making art, doesn't it? If it's not personal, if it's just about the thoughts or the thing that you're discussing

and you can make it non-personal, it's going to have a much more productive outcome. Even with ourselves, how we, how we, how we speak to ourselves. Yeah. I remember when I, um, I was sedentary most of my life and I weighed a hundred pounds more than I do now. And when I first, um, met this group of athletes who invited me to train with them, which was radical, I'd lost a bunch of weight and they invited me to train with them. Um, I remember they showed me an exercise and i said i can't do that and they say no never say you can't do it say i haven't done it yet i haven't done it yet and that's true with

everything it's like there's nothing that you can't do you may not have done it yet we don't know if you can do it or not until you really practice and then you find out if you can do it or not or how well you can do it yeah i want to talk later on this conversation about your physical transformation because i i think it's incredibly fascinating there's so many different strands and elements to it the way we to ourselves, which you've just hinted at there, there was a bit in the book where you were talking about feeling insecure, maybe doubting yourself versus doubting the work. Yeah. Which I thought was a beautiful distinction. And then you wrote this gorgeous bit, which is basically insecurity is only a hindrance

when it stops you sharing what's in your heart. Wow. That's beautiful. It's funny. I told you, I don't really know what's in the book because over seven years, all the information came out, but it's not, even when I was working on it, it's not things that I necessarily know. Yeah, it is beautiful. And beautiful. It's one of those phrases I've underlined. I've written it in my notebook because I feel at this moment in my life, Rick, I think about that a lot. I think about art. I think about the expression of ideas and once you start trying to do something for an outcome yes i think i've experienced in the past that that's where the problems start to rise you start to fracture the core of who you are and i think you can be successful by a societal metric of success

but in the process a part of you starts to wither inside yes so i i think that is so so powerful and as i research you rick that one of the big ideas that comes up is that you talk about how you can't make art if you're thinking about the outcome. Are you thinking about business? Are you thinking about how many copies it's going to sell? Or what are the audience going to think? Have you always had that perspective on art? Or is that something you've developed through experience? I've always had it.

And I think it's because it started as a hobby and I never, in a way, I never took it seriously. In one way, I took it more serious than anything else in terms of the making of the art, but I never took it seriously in terms of it being a commercial thing ever at any point. From the beginning, it was always, the hope was that it would sell enough

to be able to make another one that's all it ever was it was you know very um meager expectations i always thought i'd have a real job and then i would make music because that's what i love to do and i thought i would well i have a job and that would support my music habit i never understood that it could be i didn't even know it could be a job and that would support my music habit. I never understood that it could be, I didn't even know it could be a job. Do you consider it a real job now? Yes and no. I mean, it has worked out that I haven't had to do anything else.

So I guess, and I have an incredibly beautiful life. And I suppose based on the fact that I have a schedule and I'm obligated to show up, so I have commitments, it is a job. That said, when I'm there, there's nothing more fun than seeing something appear that wasn't there before. And the wonder of it, because again, I don't feel in control of the process. I don't think anyone has control of the process. I think there's truly magic going on. We can set the stage to best support it to happen, but we can't make it happen. And it's thrilling when it does. And I also, you know, one of the things I say in the book is the audience comes last.

And the audience comes last not because I don't care about them or I don't like the audience. In service to the audience, they have to come last. The thing that the audience wants is the best thing they can get. If we're trying to make it for them, it won't be the best thing it can get. It'll water it down. The process of making something for someone else undermines it. This is something I've learned through doing this podcast, actually.

And I mean, there's so much that I've learned in the last four and a half, nearly five years of putting this show out. But one of the things I've deeply, deeply learned is that I will choose every guest and I will choose it based on my curiosity. And I remember talking to my team about this a few months ago and said, look, people are wanting this, people wanting that, people want this guest. And I take that very seriously. It's not that I'm disregarding that, but if I'm going to be truly authentic and true to myself and therefore true to them, I've learned that actually, no wrong, and you have to almost selfishly choose the guests that excite you, that awaken something inside of you that you passionately want to sit there for

two hours with and go deep with, because otherwise the audience will will hear it if you've just rolled it out you've got the right guest you've said the right things i remember saying on a podcast a few years ago when i was the guest on someone else's show and it just came out of me i said although i'm a medical doctor and people consider this a health podcast in many ways which I think is very limiting anyway. My podcast is not an information delivery system. It's about authenticity. If I can connect with my guests, that's all I'm looking for is a deep connection and any information, any helpful information will kind of spit out as a side effect of that connection. And I don't think I recognized that when I started podcasting, but the more I've worked on and hopefully got better at the skill of it,

I passionately believe that that's the case. It sounds right. It sounds right. And it's been the case that people like what you're doing. So it's a good sign. Do you always know in the moment when you're in a studio with a band of solo artists and something magical is happening, do you always know in the moment?

Not always. Yeah. No, not always. Just had an interesting experience, tell you about it. Just before coming to Europe, I was in Malibu for a few weeks and i made a new album with neil young neil young and crazy horse and it was unlike any experience i've ever had before in the recording studio and i've had a lot of experiences in the recording studio but this was really unusual and um i don't know how much you know about crazy horse but neil has played with

crazy horse for 50 years the band the band members are all turning 80 next year neil is not uh i think neil will be i think neil's 76 or 77 not sure but the band members all turn 80. And they're not like studio musicians. They're not like crack musicians. They have a sound that's their sound, and it couldn't be more authentic. When they play, it sounds like them. But in terms of learning the material, it doesn't just happen instantaneously. Studio musicians barely even need to hear it, and they can play it, and it's perfect.

That's not the case with Crazy Horse. And we played through songs for the first week, and I will say it was rough. Rough to the point of not only did we not get the recordings that that um were the the basis of a great album but it was a question of whether they would ever be able to play the songs that's how how far off it seemed and um and we so the first week is a slow week and but they play through all the songs as i say poorly but we but we get through the week and i'm thinking okay maybe next week now that they've played them one time when we come back it's going to be better the next time and uh and neil suggests

what song to start with on the next mond. We're back fresh, new week. And the drummer Ralph said, well, we already played that one. And it was a remarkable moment because they did play it, but it was in a very unclear form. Yeah. And then we spent the next week playing the songs again. And most of them did not get better. In some cases, they got worse. And it was, again, fascinating.

And then Neil suggested, you know, let's listen back to the songs from that first week, which in the moment seemed nowhere near close. And we listened through. And then it's like, well, this moment is really good. And if this part didn't have this mistake, we don't know. Like the distract, the mistake is a distract, distracts us to think it's no good, but it's really this mistake. Let's repair the mistake. And we kind of went through it and did not much.

And then listen back and say, hmm, it's much better than we thought. And now the album, the album's done. I think it's beautiful. I love it. I really love it. And Neil loves it and knows it's special. And I think pretty much every one of the tracks was recorded in that first week when at the moment it seemed like, I don't know if they'll ever be able to play these it's unbelievable it's incredible to hear that especially with such

an experience producer and experience bands um i wonder what that is is it a bit like i'm sure you went through this through the writing process when you've written a chapter and yeah you're not sure i don't know and then when you read a few paragraphs i'm not sure i'm getting my idea out there the way i wanted to is it clear enough and then you just remove one sentence or you just remove one from this paragraph one from that paragraph then oh now it's singing now it's humming now it's purring beautifully yes is it a bit like that? Absolutely. Sometimes removing the distractions, it falls into place. And I can also say the opposite is true in the studio where we'll be working and trudging along and it seems mediocre. And then all of a sudden it gets good

and everyone looks at each other like something's happening you know and we you feel it in the moment that that's actually more common yeah feeling it in the moment and recognizing something special is happening um but this was a really interesting case because it was the furthest extreme in the opposite direction that i've ever experienced yeah and what's interesting for me uh as someone hearing that story is you're constantly being surprised all your years of experience and knowledge and then even even you are getting surprised all the time daily i'm surprised daily yeah and there's another quote i was going to talk to you about, which I nearly brought up when you were chatting about writing the book,

because you said, I think you were talking about essentially being out of your comfort zone. It was unusual for you to be writing yourself, putting your name on the front. And again, maybe because I just started writing book six at the moment, but I love this. Beware of the assumption that the way you work

is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it before. Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, something that is really important, especially at this time of year. It also contains prebiotics and digestive enzymes that help support your gut health. All of this goodness comes in one convenient daily serving

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or car. If you want to take advantage of this limited time offer, all you have to do is go to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. Yeah, there is no right way. And sometimes when we do something and find success in the way we've done it, we think that's the way it works. Yeah. But it's rarely the only way. And it could quickly become a limiting belief if you start making things that all start seeming very similar. Yeah. if you start making things that all start seeming very similar. Yeah.

So opening it up to trying a completely different way, using a different palette, collaborating with different people, so many different ways in. Being open to, if you're a rock band, maybe the acoustic version is interesting you know we don't if you if you're used to playing loud you don't think the quiet version could be good but you never know it's like let's let's turn over all the stones let's see what's possible there's another similarity here between art and medicine and well i guess my view on medicine more and more is that for most of the cases i see helping a patient to get better whatever that means i'm convinced now more than ever that it's

more art than science yes i understand for a very acute case um or you know you need a heart operation like i know you've spoken about publicly before you need a super skilled surgeon who can go in and do what's necessary i understand that but for the bulk of things that people are complaining of these days i think the job of a healthcare professional or a medical doctor like myself is to be like you are to your artists, an invisible coach, right? Reflect back to them, help them realize that they've got more autonomy, more control, more influence on their health than they think. Yes. But also realize like what you just said, that there is no one right way. I can see 10 different people with symptoms of, in inverted commas, depression. And there may well be 10 different ways to help those 10 people.

And actually, the same person, you may be able to get them better in five different ways. be able to get them better in five different ways. So it's funny, the book, it ain't just about making records. It's not about writing books. It's also about seeing patients. It's about, I think you say somewhere that it's about art and creativity is actually about the way we experience life. And that's why I think it is so magical, because these are little bits of timeless wisdom that in many ways you've written through the lens of music, but actually are applicable to everything. I hope so. I hoped to write the book in an open enough way where, and I think the nature of the principles that are discussed are not about music. And while I view them as being about art, it is true, we can live in an artful way, and it'll be better than if we don't, regardless of what it is we're doing.

Are we all artists we all we all are artists the question is is are we a better artist today than we were yesterday and are we doing everything we can to be the best artist we can be tomorrow and it's it's uh we're all art we may not all be da vinci, but are we better than we were? And can we continue to become better and better and better? And it's an ongoing iterative process over the course of our lives. Creativity, of course, is a huge part of art. And I was thinking about this this morning when sort of reflecting that we were going to have a conversation today. I was thinking, well, if life is art and creativity is an expression or something we have to tap into to express our art, then maybe the way we are with our children,

the way we are with our partners, that we are with our partners that's creativity as well that's absolutely yeah absolutely all of it and how we are with ourselves again it's all it's all of those things um anything we do to if we're dealing with some issue, and if we decide to take a pill for that issue or decide to make a creative change in our life that allows the issue to resolve itself, that's a creative choice. And it seems like, in terms of the sustainability of being able to do these things for a long time, maybe the taking the pill version isn't the best way to solve our issues.

How often, as a physician, how often do you recommend a lifestyle change versus a pharmaceutical? I mean, pretty much 99% of the time, if not 100% these days. This is what my entire career and certainly with patients, but also my public facing career, this is what it's all about is to help people realize actually the majority of what we're struggling with today is a result of our collective modern lifestyles and i say that very yes carefully i'm not blaming people yes it's our collective modern lifestyles yes and actually i believe this book, now I think about it, you can make a case that this is a health book. Because if art is an authentic expression of who we are, and we're going to do that irrespective of the outcome, irrespective of what people are going to think, are going to think, if it's truly about authenticity, then I can categorically say with certainty that people living inauthentic lives results in so many of the problems that I

see. Simple one, like if you are not living in alignment with your values. With that disconnect in who you are, with that fracture that's opened up in the core of who you are, you will put things in that void. Sugar, alcohol, whatever it might be, it's often trying to fill the void of inauthenticity so the book i feel is is helping people live a meaningful more authentic life with some simple but very very timeless and apt truths so i would have thought if people absorb them and live their lives by them that it will also help improve their health. Absolutely. I'll tell you a story. I used to live artist hours, musical artist hours. So I would sleep until typically noon, although it could be as late as three. And then I would not leave the house until the sunset.

And then I would work in the studio all night long and usually drive home as the sun was rising. That was my normal schedule for years and years and years. Even back to high school, I missed the first three classes of high school for the last two years of high school pretty consistently because I was already training this late night night owl schedule, which just just felt it felt natural to me and it was it seemed the way other people who were interested in the things that i were interested did the same and um i worked with a performance coach named phil maffetone

who and this was um let's say 20 years ago yeah and the first thing he said is and i sleep with these blackout blinds he said the first thing i want you to do is as soon as you wake up open the blinds and go outside preferably naked but at least as much of your body in the sun as possible the minute you wake up. Yeah. And he had me start doing that. And at this time, I was waking up at noon, and I started doing that. And very quickly, I started waking up earlier and earlier and earlier and earlier. It happened completely naturally. When he suggested it to me, what I heard, So he said, I want you to go outside in the sun. The minute you wake up, what I heard was,

I want you to jump off a cliff. That's how radical and terrifying it sounded compared to how my experience of what safe and comfort in life was, was not that. And that was the first, like, getting in tune with the planet. It was something I didn't know about. I didn't know about that. So in terms of being your authentic self,

also being your authentic animal on this planet, there are certain historically on a DNA level, there are things that our bodies like. And in our modern world, we don't take those into consideration. Evolutionary truths, I guess. Absolutely. And now I do as much as I can to live by the, you know, the way people lived a thousand years ago as possible or 10,000 or 100,000.

Yeah. I'm familiar with Phil Maffetone's work. I think it's great. I hope to get in touch with Phil at some point and have it on the show i'd love to talk to him yes um you have in a previous interview described your weight loss journey as creative i don't know if you recall that or not or i can't remember the context but i know but that's interesting yeah i, I found that really interesting. So I thought, wow, I'm trying to broaden the lens on art and creativity through really reading your book.

It's not forced me. It's encouraged me down a path of introspection about what does art really mean. Yes. And I found it so interesting hearing you, Rick, say that. I thought weight loss is creative do you have any idea what you might have meant by that i'm not sure i'm not sure i can tell you about the experience though it was an interesting i was overweight my entire life my mom was obese and towards the end of her life was in a wheelchair due to her obesity.

I'd been dieting and I went to Weight Watchers with my mom when I was a kid. I tried every fad diet along the way and nothing seemed to change. And then finally, I was at this breaking point when I reached out to Phil. I read a book by a guy named Stu Middleman who ran 1,000 miles in 11 days. And I was thinking, I can't walk to the end of the block. And another human being can run 1,000 miles in 11 days. So I have bad information. You know, like I'm doing something wrong. And in Stu's book, he talked about Phil.

And that's how he was able to do this crazy thing. And OK, I have to meet this guy, Phil. He has the answers. And I met with Phil. And I met with Phil several times. Then he eventually ended up moving into my house. And we lived with Phil and I met with Phil several times. Then he eventually ended up moving into my house and we lived together for two years. And I did everything he said and my health improved radically. And my vitality turned back on from essentially being off from a life of

sedentary. I was also a vegan for 20 something years, which really created havoc in my body. It was not right for me. Why were you a vegan? For ethical reasons or for health reasons? Combination, combination. It started, I gave up originally in college, I gave up In college, I gave up Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola first, then gave up red meat. And I did those things, I would say, thinking that it was beliefs about health. And I got down to the point where I wasn't using any caffeine. I was drinking only water and I was eating chicken and vegetables at that point in time. And then I moved to California and a friend gave me a book called Diet for a New America, which is a book about veganism, essentially.

And he said, if you read this book, you're not going to want to eat chicken anymore because it talked about the horrors of industrial meat. And I thought, well, if I give up chicken, I'm going to die because all I'm eating now is chicken and vegetables, so I can't do that. And I thought at that time, before I read the book, I'm going to experiment and see how long I can go without eating chicken.

And then I ended up not eating chicken again for 20 some odd years and just ended up eating vegetables and a lot of processed vegan food, which was, it turns out, not very healthy. Or at least not healthy for me. not very healthy or at least not healthy for me all i can only speak to my experience but my experience was and i will say most of the vegans i know i knew didn't look very healthy either how heavy were you at your heaviest um 318 pounds but i don't know what that is in kilograms yeah okay okay 318 pounds and then you start working with phil start working with phil did everything he said my hours changed i got in tune with the planet um i was able to do stairs and walk long distances without um dying was he doing the heart rate yes up with you he gave you your heart rate yes and said i want you to move your body,

but not go above this specific heart rate. Yes, low aerobic heart rate zone. He has a formula, doesn't he? Like 180 minus your age, and then you can vary it. Plus or minus based on certain things. Yeah, exactly. But when you were asked to do that,

so you can get walking or going upstairs, but your heart rate can't go above asked to do that yes so you can you know get walking or going upstairs but your heart rate can't go above a certain number that he gave you well you want to keep your heart rate right at that number as close as you can get if you're walking slowly and you're not getting to that number you're not doing it you want to be as close to the target number as possible for as long as you can. So you'd wear a heart rate monitor. Absolutely. And you'd literally be out walking and checking. Either out when at this point in time, I lived in Los Angeles.

So out walking is not so easy because the hills make it nearly impossible. So I had a treadmill and I did it on a treadmill at that point in time. So he changes your circadian rhythm by getting you to see natural lights in the morning. Yes. Which is in tune with your evolutionary biology and your heritage. Yes. And vitamin D and the ultraviolet. I got all the benefits of being in the sun in addition to getting on the right schedule.

Yeah. And did he make changes to your diet? Absolutely. He wanted me to eat meat. He wanted me to eat everything other than carbs, which at that time I wasn't able to do because I was still a vegan. So he had me add fish and eggs as the minimal of what I could do. And I ate them both. I never liked fish. Growing up, I didn't eat fish. And eggs was never something I liked. And he said, regardless of whether you like them or not, this is medicine.

You take it as medicine. Think of it as medicine. You need animal protein. And I added the animal protein. I cut all soy. I cut nuts. I cut a lot of things. And I got much healthier, and I did not lose weight. I lost maybe five or 10 pounds over the two years that we worked together. And you stuck to the advice? Absolutely. He was with me and he said

at the end of it, he said, 99 out of a hundred people who've done what you did, all their weight would fall off. For some reason, it hasn't with you. then i thought well my mom's obese it's just a genetic thing this is what it is but at least i'm healthy now you know at least and i felt very healthy i think that's an interesting lesson there so you radically transform your lifestyle i guess the goal initially was weight loss it was so the goal was weight loss and although you didn't really get or meet your goal i'm sure you want in more than five or 10 pounds. You got all these unexpected benefits. Um, can you remember what they were? It was like energy or I felt great. I felt great. Better than you felt before. Oh, absolutely. So much better,

so much better, so much better in so many ways. And then, so now I'm a healthy, heavy person. And that went on for years. And then I was suggested to go to see a nutritionist. I had a mentor. He just passed away maybe three weeks ago named Mo Austin. Beautiful man. He worked for Frank Sinatra. And he signed Jimi Hendrix and he signed

the Sex Pistols. And he was really one of the most beautiful people ever in the music business. And I went out to lunch with him one day and he said, I'm really getting worried about you. I know that you swim every day and you watch what you eat, because I did, but you're really getting big and I'm concerned. And I'm going to get the name of a nutritionist. I want you to go to my nutritionist and do whatever he said, whatever he says. And I said, okay, I'll do it. Knowing it was not going to work because again, I've been diligent my whole life in wanting to lose weight and nothing has worked.

So I'm assuming nothing will work, but I go along with it because I like Mo and I'll do anything he asked me to do. along with it because I like Mo and I'll do anything he asked me to do. And I went to see his guy and he put me on egg shake. He had me have seven egg shakes a day and then fish soup salad for dinner, but very low calorie. So it was not so different than what Phil was recommending, except the difference was Phil suggests not counting calories. And I can see, I understand the idea of not counting calories. And now I've come to realize, I think not counting calories works once you're at your target weight. But to get to your target weight, you may need to count calories. your target weight but to get to your target weight you may need to count calories yeah first of all i'm sorry to hear about your friends and mentor yeah um yeah so i so i went on a

radically reduced calorie diet i don't know 13 or 1400 calories a day and um and in 14 months i lost 135 pounds which is you know a third of my body more more than a third of my body weight wow it's interesting hearing that because whether it's 99 or a significant uh majority of people if they followed what phil yes we're saying would absolutely yes have better health, better vitality, better energy, and they would have lost weight. Because I've used that sort of approach with not everyone, but with many of my patients, and it can work super, super well. And Phil said it worked for everyone he's done it with, it's worked. So he was baffled.

Yeah. And I think the count and calorie thing is, again, I think your story speaks to an idea in your book that don't get too attached to one way. There's always another way. Absolutely. And we're all different. And we're all different. And what works for you might not work for someone else. And it's helpful. not work for someone else and it's helpful to you know sometimes we have wisdom imparted by an expert who's telling us what what through their experience is best yeah but it may be what's best for them and not best for you and we are not we are not one size fits all yeah and it goes back to my previous comment which is as you get more experienced if you're open-minded and not closed-minded yes after seeing tens of thousands of patients if you remain

open-minded you're like there are always surprises yes there are always people doing things that you haven't tried before that but they're doing and they're getting better i've always liked to approach it with curiosity go wow that's interesting i't know that. I wouldn't have suggested that, but that's working for you. And I'd like to know more. I'd love to learn more. Absolutely. That's my way of being in the world. If someone tells me something that doesn't make sense to me, I want to know more.

I want to know everything. I don't discount what they're saying, just the opposite. Yeah, I guess it's whether you're attached to an identity, whether you're attached to being right, or whether you're, I guess, attached to learning. Because for me, I think that's the fundamental difference now. And I feel that's one of the key moves I've made, which is why I think at this stage in my life, in forties, I've, I've never felt this happy and content. And I think this is a big part of it, Rick, that it's not about being right anymore. I'm not, okay, fine. If I'm wrong about something, okay, great. I've had the opportunity to learn something.

Yes. And I think calories for, for many people, I think where this calorie thing comes for years, I think a lot of people try to count calories And a lot of people have the view that if you focus on the right foods, actually your natural satiety will take care of those calories for you. That's certainly been my experience for most people. But as you're just sharing, well, actually, for some people, it might well be helpful. And do you still count calories today? No. Well, the other thing that I found about counting calories that was really helpful is it is helpful to know where calories are. For example, when I used to like

peanut butter and I switched to almond butter because it was the healthier choice, but the amount of calories in half of a jar of almond butter are quite a lot. So I'm making, but I'm making a healthy choice. And in my mind, well, it's the healthy one. I can have half a bottle of almond butter because I like it and I'm hungry. So I'll have that. Understanding that the half of jar of almond butter had more calories than I meant to eat in a whole day

in addition to all the food that I eat was helpful to me. Yeah, it's an empowerment piece, isn't it? You can now use that information and now without counting go, hey, I want a bit of almond butter, but I better not have half the jar. Yes. And now I rarely will have almond butter just because it's so, the trade-off of the amount of calories for what it is, I might not make that choice. Yeah. And again, it's an empowerment. You're now with that information. You're saying for you, it's not worth the trade-off. But Bob down the street- It's up to him.

He may go, yeah, I definitely would rather eat less later, but have my almond butter. Yes. And yeah, super, super interesting. So you effectively went on a super low calorie diet. High protein, no carb, low calorie diet. So with Phil, you had huge improvements in multiple aspects of your health, just not weight loss. Correct. When you saw your late friend's nutritionist, you got this incredible weight loss. Was there anything else you got with it,

or was it mainly weight? This is an interesting one. At that point in time, I felt like I really, in that case, what he was suggesting, what the nutritionist was suggesting seemed very far out to me. It seemed extreme to me. And I felt like by doing what he said, I was putting my faith in him and turning myself over. I didn't do what I thought was best. I did what he thought was best, which was not something I'm good at. And I found through that, through giving up what I thought was best, that's how I ended up losing weight. what I thought was best, that's how I ended up losing weight.

So what's the lesson there? Don't always trust yourself. Well, we can't always trust ourselves, but it's interesting that there are times when, and maybe it's an experiment. It's an experiment that sometimes I'm going to do it the way that doesn't sound right to me and see what happens. Again, it's all a test. But before, I would have been closed to that test because that doesn't sound right to me. I'm not going to do that. This didn't sound right to me, but out of respect for Mo, I'll try it. Yeah, it's an interesting concept, isn't it? Because I guess we'd always want people to trust themselves. But nothing tends to be true at the extremes, does it? It's kind of like, yeah, sure, trust yourself, trust yourself.

But sometimes lean in and trust someone else and see what happens. It's a bit like that section in the book that you've written on rules and how rules are sometimes... Always. Oh, always. Okay, so tell me about rules. Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can

break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health and together we're going to learn the skill of happiness, the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life, and I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour.

And I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Now, journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making, and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits, and improve our relationships. There are, of course, many different ways to journal, and as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the

one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January,

I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. I think rules are there to be tested. And when a rule comes, it can either be a useful rule or a not useful rule. Sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on purpose, a limitation that to create a specific, you may work on a book, like every time you work on a book, you have a rough idea of what it's going to be about.

It's not about everything. Not every book is about everything. So you set up an organization for that book. That's rules. And that's rules set up an organization for that book. That's rules. And that's rules that you're adopting for that book. So there's time where having rules makes sense. In general, in the world, rules are there to establish an average behavior. And I'm not sure that average is anything to aspire to. So sometimes, especially in art,

if you want to create something special, often it comes from breaking rules, from going beyond the accepted norm of how it's done. Yeah. I'll tell you, this is an interesting medical story about going beyond the norms of how things are. I just tell you, this is an interesting medical story about going beyond the norms of how things are. I just heard the story recently. I have a friend who's a brilliant brain surgeon, maybe one of the best in the world. And he told me the story of doing a brain surgery where

there was a big tumor in a part in the brain. It was a very particularly dangerous operation because the tumor was right next to the part of the brain that allows a person to speak. And if the surgery went too far, the person would never speak again. And to do the surgery, the person was anesthetized but had to be awake and had to be speaking the whole time it's the only way to know how far you can go so the surgeon is doing these tiny slices of taking this tumor away tiny slices tiny slices and the person speaking to him and he knows well i'm getting close to the place I can't go past because then the person will never speak again. And he's going and the person's speaking, but the tumor's still there

and he's going and he's going and he's going. And then he gets to the part where he's not allowed to go further and the person's still speaking and he does another slice and the person's still speaking and he does another slice and he does another slice and he keeps going. And he moved right through what the textbook says you can't do. And the person's speaking the whole time. And he said, it was incredible. It was an incredible experience. And the way we thought the brain works is not the way the brain works. the way we thought the brain works is not the way the brain works.

And then I said, well, how much of the, how much of what's taught today in medical school, in the textbook in medical school, textbooks of medical school, how much of that information is accurate and up to date and how much isn't? And he said, maybe half, maybe half of what's being taught right now might be right. And at least half is either wrong or obsolete. Yeah. That's incredible.

It is incredible. That's incredible. And that's why it's a folly to cling too tightly to these beliefs or these so-called truths that you've been taught. Yes, we don't know. You don't know? No, we don't know. We know so little. And I think the real power we can have is embracing how little we know and to live in wonder.

You know, it's a much more beautiful way. You said earlier about giving up being right. When someone says to me, you're right, it always makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to be right. I just want to know. I just want to know more. Do you know what I mean? Because if I'm right, that means someone's wrong.

I don't want anybody to be wrong. I want us all to just find our way. Yeah. You know, there's no sense of competition in it. It's like, let's work together to find our way. As someone who's not used to putting their name on the front of work they've been involved with, does it make you uncomfortable in any way when I rave about how wonderful I think your book is. Because many people struggle with praise. Yeah, I definitely struggle with praise, but because I put so much work into it,

it's exciting for me to know that someone can read it and feel what I felt when working on it. So there's a sense of satisfaction that it's doing what I hoped it would do, which would be resonate with someone. I purposely did want this book for someone to read it and feel it and want to take action. That was in some ways the purpose of the book from the beginning. There was a version of the book about three years ago, which was beautifully eloquent, but when i read it it didn't it didn't make me want to make art it was just it was more um it didn't do what i i wanted i wanted someone to read the book and want to write stop reading to go out and make something beautiful is there a contradiction in Contradiction in one of the core messages, which is you cannot make art, good art, if you're thinking about the outcome, or you're thinking about what people will think.

And I'm saying this as an inquiry to explore, not with any other intention. I'm with you. Because you just said to me that i really want people to be able to yes take this resonate with take action so is there a conflict there with those two why there is and there is an aspect of this book where it's an instruction manual yeah and for an instruction manual to be effective the information in it wants to land. If it was a book of poetry, less so. Yeah.

And I'm hoping it's poetic. It is, honestly. I like that it's poetic, but ultimately the reason I put the time in for this to exist was in the same way that when I go to the studio with artists, it's to help them be their best selves. And the idea of the book was to be an outgrowth of that, where for the people I don't get to work with in the studio, what's it like being in the studio? What are the things we

talk about? What are the things that we get to that ends up in making the things that we make? And that's what the book is. So if it didn't make you want to make something, I would deem it not a success for me. Yeah. There are so many wonderful sections in the book that are coming to mind for me at the moment, Rick. One of them is about make art that moves you. Yes. If it happens to move someone else,

okay, great. And if it doesn't, that's okay as well. But first and foremost, make the art that moves you. I want to etch that into my heart, into my soul, because there's this other concept in the book you talk about the the the pressure of a loyal audience yes a loyal audience can begin to feel like a prison yes

and I feel that's um it's a really interesting concept and I actually think every aspect that we've been talking about is relevant to every single person. That loyal audience thing is, you know, the way you expand upon it in the book through the concepts, through the lens of the music industry. You know, if you're a successful artist and you've sold loads of copies of your album, there's a whole team of people around you wanting you to repeat the same. This is the formula. Hey, just give us that again. Right. repeat the same. This is the formula. Hey, just give us that again. And I've experienced a lot of an inverted commas success over the past few years with this podcast, with my books. And what I love about that sort of idea is I took some real time off over the summer, spent it with my wife and kids. We went away. I was off social media. It was just wonderful. And I've really been re-evaluating what it is I want. What is it I'm here to do? And I don't want to play it safe. You could play it

safe. You could only take interviews with people who you know your audience are going to like, and that's the topics that they want. But I think that's a misservice to them, and it's a misservice to myself. Because in the process of doing that, you lose who you are. And then you end up compensating for that with all kinds of behaviors that ends you up in the doctor's surgery asking for help right yes yes yeah have you seen artists fall into that trap absolutely it happens all the time just the the expectation it works in many different ways but the idea that if there's a group of people who are expecting a certain thing from you and you you no longer feel like that artist you know you've you've moved forward and your concern is that the audience hasn't moved forward it's a very uncomfortable place to be you can continue going through the motions in the old way and thinking that that will please

the audience, and it may or may not, or you can be true to yourself. And in that process, you'll alienate some of your audience and maybe get new fans. It's the reality of the situation i had that experience with um the band lincoln park lincoln park were a very uh aggressive um i guess the they were on the end of the new metal there was like a new metal phase of music and they were the last band in this wave yeah of these new metal bands and like rap rock new metal and i had seen that they had grown past it and it was time to make their next album and i suggested that they embraced what they loved and to make the most interesting thing

for themselves and they did and it completely divided the audience and it set them up to be able to continue making interesting things going forward and in some ways it's like their early career and now there's this new career that's much more, there was much more, it moved in more directions and it was more honest. It was less formulaic. Yeah. And it was fine. You know, it worked out fine. But definitely in the moment, I can remember it happened to me when, you know, I loved Radiohead when they put out Kid A. My first instinct was, well, that's not what I want

from Radiohead. It happens. And now Listening Back is one of my favorite albums that happens. We don't always know. So even as consumers then of art, letting go of rigidity and expectation and being open to the unknown and open to things, I guess that's an important lesson for us as well, because you know that as a creator. Yes. But that was really powerful that as a fan of Radiohead, you fell into that trap as well.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And sometimes, again, if you have expectations or you see things in a certain context, when that's upset, it's hard to know where you stand. Yeah. And I've grown to really like that feeling. It doesn't always mean. Difference is not always better.

It's often not. That's the other thing. It's like, just because it's different doesn't mean mean, difference not always better. It's often not. That's the other thing. It's like, just because it's different doesn't mean it's better. And let's assume that because it's different, it's not worse. We don't know. It's like, it has to, you have to experience it and see.

Sometimes the shock of the news, very exciting. And it's like, ah. Yeah. But sometimes it's. It's so fascinating i um i saw this thing on kurt cabane a couple of weeks ago on youtube and but something i didn't know i was a you know when smiles like teen spirit came out i was what i don't know probably about what was what was that, 91, something like that. It was probably 13, 14, 15, you know, really into music, you know, seminal album. Very real, very authentic.

And then in this video I saw a couple of weeks ago, they were showing footage of, I think, Kurt Cobain saying that, or I think it was Dave Grohl talking about Kurt, that he wanted Nirvana to be the biggest band in the world. Wow. That's interesting. It was really interesting because I was also at the same time reading your book. Yeah. And I thought, well, this is interesting. I never would have expected that. That certainly wasn't the, I'm not saying curated image that I got given by the record industry, but this kind of raw, authentic grunge bands.

Oh, Kurt Cobain wanted Nirvana to be the biggest band in the world. And I felt a slight disconnect there when I heard that, especially going back to the idea that you can't make great art if you're thinking about the outcome. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that at all. Yeah. What's interesting is with the things that i've worked on things that i make i i the audience comes last i want to make the best thing that i can and i hope a lot of people like it i don't make it with them in mind because that's it i know it won't be as good. Yeah. But when they do, it certainly feels good.

I'm not against success at all. At all. And it's amazing when it happens. It's when that becomes the primary focus in the making, when you're changing the art for it to be successful and i don't get the sense and i don't know this maybe kurt cobain wanted to be the biggest band in the world but i'd be surprised if he made creative choices yeah to um that with that in mind and that's the key distinction isn't it it really is it's it's

it's what's the intention in the making yeah again i'm i'm there's there's nothing wrong with wanting and having success i'm only talking about when you're making something where does your focus lie for it to be as good as it could be because i imagine that can work both ways like i can imagine and maybe you've worked with bands where actually they did change the art in order for it to be commercially successful maybe there was pressure from the record industry from publicists from managers who knows what and maybe in the short term they thought that was a win. Mm-hmm. But I just feel strongly that medium-term, long-term, you lose something much more

significant than anything you might gain with that commercial success. Absolutely. And in that process of whittling away at yourself, over time, there's less of you to put into the next one. There's less. You know, it's like you really do, like, you get to a point of who am I if that's happened enough times. Yeah. if that's happened enough times. Yeah. When I feel, Rick, for much of my life,

I've tried to perform and be someone who I am not in order to get validation. And a lot of that has come down to the programs, the ideas that I took on as a child, which was that in order to be loved, or certainly my perception, I should say, because it's my perception. My perception was that I'm loved when I get top marks, when I get straight A's, when I'm number one, because my parents were always driving me to do that. But just to briefly summarize my parents, immigrants to the UK from India, facing a lot of discrimination, a lot of struggle.

They just want the best for their child. Absolutely. That was their way of showing love. Hey, you be the best you can be. Actually, you're not going to have the problems that we've had. So same reality, but two versions of that reality two perceptions and so why i feel and i'd be interested in your thoughts on the art form of podcasting because you've now written a book you've been involved with many albums i know i've listened to many of the episodes you did

with broken record uh wonderful conversations that you've had with artists so i'm interested to see your view in the podcasting art form i feel that this podcast you know i keep getting stopped by people who are listening to the show and telling me beautiful stories of the impact it's had on them which is really nice to hear absolutely it's certainly not ego elevating in a way that it would have been 10 years ago because i'm not that person anymore i I don't need that validation, but I think it's helped me more than anyone. Like these are the conversations that nourish me, that fuel me, that help me understand myself. And unfortunately we're not in my studio. You would have met my videographer, Gareth, who is a mega fan of yours actually, Rick. met my videographer, Gareth, who is a mega fan of yours, actually, Rick. But something, Gareth only joined the team maybe two or three years ago when we brought video into the production process. And Gareth probably spends as much time with me as anyone outside my family because he's

in with me for every conversation. He sees me beforehand. He sees me after. So he sees me with all the filters off as well. And he's been wonderful at helping us work that this idea of performance versus authenticity, this whole idea that he would spot that I was like subtly different when the mic's rolling than when the mic's not rolling. And so we've, in a variety of ways, just been conscious, aware of, can I show up as the same person, same thought process, same intonation in my voice, everything, as if the mic isn't there. And it's been really quite um it's just been a phenomenal experience because performance i used to think performance was a good thing growing up you know i'm gonna now perform on stage i was in bands for years rick i'd be the front man in bands

a very loud vivacious front man But that was a personality I put on to hide a deep insecurity, I realized. And actually, my only goal with each conversation is, is it a raw, authentic conversation? Were you as raw and as honest and as unaltered in your tone of voice as you could be. I don't know if you have any comments on that. It sounds good. It sounds like I want to hear... It's one of the beautiful things about... One, that you're not a journalist.

One of the things I've noticed is that there's a different conversation that you have with a journalist than you have with a person. And again, nothing against journalists at all. But the nature of a journalist is different. The way a journalist asks questions is different than having a conversation with someone. And I think the podcasting revolution is about this, the benefit of these long form, essentially unedited heart to heart conversations. And it's something that we very rarely get to hear. It's we, we in, in, um, in normal media life, we get snippets and soundbites. And often the snippets and soundbites are taken out of context or chosen for some sensational reason. And we don't really get to know people.

And this format is incredible because we're spending hours together having a conversation. And there'll be parts that are really interesting and parts that are less interesting and parts that are energetic and parts that are not. And it's real. It's, this is a real conversation. And I think it's more rooted in reality than like a curated experience of life it's more real when you were having these conversations for the broken record podcast with you know the chili

peppers springsteen lenny kravitz i'm halfway through that one which is a huge Lenny fan it's a really eye-opening for me um how do you prepare for those conversations not much not much depends on who the artist is if it's an artist I know I may think about it the morning of the the podcast and make a list of possible questions just in case it doesn't come up in the conversation, like a backup plan. If it's an artist I don't know, I may listen to some music, do a little research. I might even listen to another interview just to get a sense of who they are. So I'm not surprised when I'm speaking to them. That's pretty much it.

I go in pretty unprepared, honestly. That's interesting. I'm trying to think in my head, how would that be different for when you're about to work with a band or a solo artist on a new album? Different art forms. Obviously in a podcast you are required to not necessarily lead a conversation but um be on mic yes

like if you if you if you're working with a band you've never worked with before do you go in cold fresh yes less less prepared even less prepared absolutely because you don't want what anything to be colored by a previous yeah i don't want to have i don't want to come in with any baggage whatsoever i want to listen to what the artist tells me and i want to um whatever is interesting to me in the conversation, I'll ask questions to learn what is helpful for me to know in that moment. Yeah. Super interesting. Yeah.

And I have no agenda other than if we're going to make something together that it be as good as it could be, whatever it is. So I don't, like if there's an artist who I know their music well, I might have not even on purpose. There may be in the back of my mind, it would be fun to hear them doing this, you know, in the back of my mind, some style of project for them to do. But I would never offer that to start with.

It would always be a, let me hear what you want to do. but I would never offer that to start with. It would always be a, let me hear what you want to do. And then there may be some idea that, again, a backup plan, if nothing else works, there might be an idea, but I would never assume that any idea I had would be the right idea. What kind of process do you need to go through? Or are there set practices that you engage in? I don't know, artists is rocking up at noon, let's say. In the two hours prior to that,

do you have to go through an intentional process of clearing out the noise so you are as fresh and as uncolored when you meet them when you hear their music like i guess i'm thinking you're driving to a studio to meet someone yes and you have the radio playing so you've got other music that might be i might do that you might do that i might do that but you're not worried that that would um because we're never the same person, are we? We're not the same person on a Monday as we are on a Tuesday, right? So everything you do or everything you've done in your entire life kind of plays into who you are in that moment when you're listening. Absolutely. So how do you deal with that?

Whether it's sunny or raining, whether, you know, everything, it just is. Yeah, it just is. It's not, yeah, it just is. And also considering what you just said, that all of our lives play into this meeting, whatever happened in the last 10 minutes isn't more important than everything else. So do you know what I mean? In the context of a lot has happened for us to get to this moment and uh i'm just you know thankful to be here we mentioned ego in artists um i guess all of us have got an element of ego that can rear its head at various times depending on what's going on i would say both ego and insecurity, like both sides of it are always at play.

You might see someone who demonstrates it through what seems like an egomaniac perspective, yet underneath that is this very insecure person. uh, shy and outgoing and, uh, wild ego, tremendous insecurity. It's just like a seesaw. Yeah. That's an interesting one to ponder. What's it like for you? Because you've said earlier on in this conversation that you're still basically just kind of doing your hobby and yes it's create this wonderful life for you and sure it's technically work because there's schedules and obligations things you have to fulfill but really it's just you you know engaging in a hobby that you love yes which which i think is everyone's dream really to be able to do a job like that i certainly feel i've got a huge element of that in my life now yes um if you read the press on yourself it will consistently say things like greatest record producer of all time you know

one of the most influential people on the planet, or whatever kinds of things that society has put onto you. So how do you deal with that? Let's say you're about to go somewhere, you're introduced like that. It's intriguing for me. What happens in your mind when you hear that? I just think it's all like a funny story. I know that I know I'm the same person I've always been. It's fascinating to know that that's the perception. It's fascinating that some of it may be true. Some of it may not be true. It's all just, it's just interesting. It's all interesting. It's like, wow, can you believe that? Obviously, when someone says something really good about me, on the one hand, it's like, I'm glad they think that, and that makes me uncomfortable. Both of those feelings come up. engage with whatever, because it seems like it's not important to me. It's the same.

The reason the book doesn't tell any stories about my life or any of the artists I work with, it's a distraction from this, from the material. And my interest in life is in the material, not in the stories about it or the sensational nature of it. I like to close my eyes and listen to the music. I like to engage in a conversation and meet somebody as who they are. It's a very interesting thing that some people, the idea of this putting on a performance or a facade, it creates a real distortion in the reality field. It's like if you're in a relationship with someone and you lie to them or they lie to you, it's like, are you even really together?

Do you know what I'm saying? It's like all we have is this shared understanding of reality. And if we can't talk about the same reality, do we know each other at all? Are we even in the same place? One of us is believing something that the other person knows is not true. And it's like, we're in two different realms. Yeah. It's funny that a lot of people, when they meet a long-term partner, the first part or certainly the early parts of the relationship is often facilitated by alcohol. Yeah. And if you think about what alcohol does to us

and how it changes us and our behaviors and our patterns and our you know those insecurities can be dampened so it's interesting that many people bond as a version of themselves who they they simply are not yes although it may be because it lets down inhibitions. I don't drink, first of all, but I will say because alcohol lowers inhibitions, somebody might say something that they would hold back in polite company. Yeah. Nothing's true in the extremes, eh? No, it's hard to know.

It's hard to know. Also, if someone meditates, that might be the case. someone meditates that might be the case they might be real you know they might be real have you ever had a case where you felt the artists in your presence because of the the story around you feel unable to share their truth oh man this you know rick rubin says the vocal needs changing there or rick rubin says the guitar isn't quite right there. Have you ever detected maybe some people pleasers or people who felt quite insecure not trusting themselves in your presence because of this story, albeit a subjective story, because art is subjective. Have you ever detected that? Uh, it, it has probably happened. The nature of the process is it's a long process and like maybe when we first met each other, we had thoughts about each

other, whatever it is, but now that we've been talking for however long we've been talking, we're just talking. It's like, it's like that. It's like whatever, uh, ideas anyone comes in with get dispelled very quickly when you just have a conversation and it just becomes people talking. Yeah. This is one of the reasons I do long form. Yeah. And it's really interesting. It really speaks to some of the ideas in the book, this idea that you make the art you want to make that's in your heart.

Because as we're having this conversation rick you know it's just over four and a half years since this show started and uh it's funny just before we started you said oh you got in early and i was like no when i started podcasting i thought i was late yes uh i thought oh man this has been going for years you know is there any room and you know i I'd like to believe that there's always space for quality content. Absolutely. I have to believe that. Absolutely. Otherwise, what's the point? Absolutely.

But at the time in the UK podcast industry, what they would say is that you cannot, or you should not do a podcast more than 40 minutes long. The average commute time is 40 minutes. That's how long they should be. And my first few were of that length. I just, something didn't sit right with me. And over the next few months, little by little, they started getting longer and longer and longer. And as they got longer, they got more and more popular, which I found was really, really interesting. And there wasn't that many people on this side of the Atlantic at that time doing long form. You know, there was, you know, like Tim Ferriss in America and Rich Roll. These guys were doing

great long form there but it wasn't really happening here it's starting to change a little bit here but still there's a bias towards shorter content which i found interesting but i think this speaks i think to the message you've tried to put out throughout your career that make the art that moves you. How do you see the selling of the art compared to the making of the art? And it's something you said before, Rick, about when snippets are taken to be sensationalist or whatever, then that can also be a conflict. I really struggle with that with this show because the conversations are 90 minutes to two hours, maybe two and a half hours.

But then we will then take clips to put on platforms like Instagram to raise awareness of hopefully a wonderful two-hour conversation. But it's almost in conflicts with what we do because not really because that that's a commercial okay it's a different it's a different so it's different you're okay with that absolutely ethically you think that's okay absolutely because again it's if you want more this is where you're doing that in service of this you're doing

the short form to draw attention to the long form. And the long form is the thing that you're making that you're proud of. Any way that you can spread the information in a way that someone engages with the thing that you're doing, that seems okay. It's a different thing. It's like saying, like, any thoughts about how to release a project, how to put it into the world, that starts after you've made it. You make it first. And it's just a whole new job that starts. After you've made the art as good as it could be, then, okay,

how are we going to turn people on to this? If you start thinking about that before, it's going to undermine the DNA of it. Yeah. It becomes a mark. You know, the project becomes a marketing, part of a marketing vehicle. Yeah. But if you make this beautiful thing first, and then, okay, it's done. I've signed off.

The art's done. Now, how do we turn people on to it? And then it's a whole new, really creative adventure. And what are the best ways? It's a. I've signed off. The art's done. Now, how do we turn people onto it? And then it's a whole new, really creative adventure. And what are the best ways? It's a different skill set. Completely different. Completely different. Yeah.

You said you've been writing this book for seven years. Yeah. Over seven years, around seven years. Yes. The process started seven years ago. I'm interested in your philosophy on deadlines. Did you have a deadline for this book? I did not. So the wider question is, for me, the wider question is, how do you know when the art is finished and can be shared and released.

Something I learned through working on the book, this is something I'm not good at, or at least wasn't good at prior to the book. I'm not a great finisher. I'm a better experimenter than a finisher. So I can tinker away for a long time. Finishing is difficult. I like, I love when it's done. So I don't have to think about it anymore. I like that. I like when it's done, but getting to the point of saying it's done, that there are no more options is a,

you know, closing options is not something that's easy for me to do. What I came to realize is that there are different points in a project. And in the book, we talk about a seed phase where you're collecting ideas, the experimentation phase where you're taking those seeds and seeing what they can turn into. Then there's a craft phase where after the seed germinates, now we bring our own filter into it to see if we can, how can we shape this thing that the universe wants to give us? And then the final phase is editing and all of the pieces of the finishing part. And in the past, I looked at those all as part of this open-ended, it can go on forever. And I came to realize the only parts, it's really the first, especially the first two, and sometimes some of the third step where we need time. But the finishing, the last piece of it,

need time. But the finishing, the last piece of it, you can set a deadline there and it actually might be a good thing. And again, I only learned that through working on the book and seeing where my method doesn't work as well as it could, that we've already done all the tests. Now it's purely, there really isn't more experimentation to do we've cracked the code and once we've cracked the code setting a time to get it out is can be a really really helpful thing yeah i found that so interesting right something i've thought a lot about and i guess i have a slightly different perspective and i wonder there's no right or wrong also yeah i just wonder what you're you know you're someone who i i have a huge amount of respect for so i'm i'm

you know fascinated by your opinion on this if i didn't have deadlines there's no way i would have written five books in the past five years yes no way yes it just would not have happened and i have some author friends one very successful author in america who you know four or five years you know he'd had a big hit book and you know it was changing people's lives and for four or five years he's still working on my book it's still working i said hey honestly i think you need a deadline because i've heard some of your early stuff three years ago. It was great. Because I'm not quite, I've still got to work through the

ideas. And I get that. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, but my view has become, and I guess we all tell ourselves the story that works, that suits our life so maybe i'm telling myself a story here but i just see a piece of art as a snapshot in time yes because that's all it ever can be so when i finish a manuscript when i've it's been through edits i've tweaked it i've gone away from it i've come back to it and it's the date to go to print, and which the publisher says, we cannot make any more changes, even if you send us some of those emails in a few weeks like you've done before. We're done now. I've learned to embrace that and go, no, that's part of the process. It can only ever be as good as I can make it at the point they press print. Because my thoughts about these ideas don't just suddenly stop yes so even

when it's being printed i'm seeing things in the world i'm coming up with new ideas oh had i if i could change that manuscript i would yes and so i i give a lot of authors come to me for advice and I say, guys, listen, take the pressure off yourself, right? It's a snapshot in time. True. So what's your perspective on that, given what you just said? Because it's similar, but it's nearly impossible to put anything out. Yeah. So it is true that it's a snapshot in time and it's all essentially a diary. I think it really depends on what it is that you're making. Like also if you're, let's say you're a newspaper reporter

and the newspaper comes out every day, obviously the amount of time and attention that goes into each article is going to be different than if you're writing the one book you write a year. And if you write one book every five years, the time and attention that goes into that book is going to be different than the one that you write in one year. It just is the nature of time. And I don't think there's a correct schedule for any of these things. You're on the schedule of, this is what I can put out once a year, and this is the schedule I like. And there's nothing wrong with that.

There's certain artists, certain musicians who put out an album every three or four years, and then there are some artists who put out an album every year. And one's not right and one's not wrong. And there's also a habit involved. I know with the artists that I work on, I've worked with for a long time, we tend to overwrite. I like this process of, for example, with the Chili Peppers, if there are going to be 12 songs on an album,

we might record 30 or 35 songs. We might finish 35 songs to have 12 on an album. So every album we put out in some ways is a greatest hits of three albums put into one. And that's just a habit I got into. of and and not all artists will go you know not all artists are up for that some artists you know write eight songs and think okay maybe i need one more to be done and that's all they're willing to do so it really depends on it depends on the artist and again there's no right or wrong it like, these are just different ways of approaching it. Yeah. There is, I do believe that the more you have to choose from, chances are, it'll be better.

I think, you know, if there's, who's to say that the first five songs you write are going to be better than the last five of 20? I don't know. We don't know. And we won't know that till we get to the 20. Yeah, because in the moment, you think those first five are the best five of 20 i don't know we don't know and we won't know that till we get to the 20 yeah because in the moment you think those first five are the best five absolutely you think oh man these are awesome definitely going on the album yes yeah yeah so it's hard to say it's really hard to say yeah i remember um an interview bono gave in the 90s about the pop album and i think this illustrates the point beautifully for

good or for worse potentially but he said words to the effects of and you may know this better than than me being so close to the music industry like being in the industry but you know as a as a avenue music fan i would consume cds music read, buy bootlegs, everything. So the bands I liked, I knew everything about them. Bono said that pop wasn't finished when they put it out. The problem was that they had a sold-out stadium tour across the world, but the pop stadium tour. So they just had to put the album out as good as they could make it at that time. And over the first 12 months on tour, he says these songs evolved hugely to the point, I think,

where had they recorded it or had they finished the album a year later, it would have been a different album. And I think that, it's funny how back then I wasn't a doctor, I wasn't a podcast host, I wasn't an author. Something about that stuck in my brain from the 90s. Oh, there was a deadline, but it wasn't quite ready. And I think I have thought about that interview so much over the past few years as I've gone into this now public facing creative career as a podcaster and as an author. And I think that has also helped me realize or come to the conclusion that it's only ever a snapshot in time. Yes. I've heard a different version of that story that the album was actually better earlier. Oh, wow. And that they went past it and that there were times that there were like rough mixes of the album that were much better

than the album. I don't know if that's true, but it's just interesting. It's interesting, even for the same album. Was it too early? Was it too late? Who knows? And I guess you presumably will have been in that position before. Was it better before we started faffing around and chasing things? Was it better three weeks ago? I'm really into this. And I never assume that because we work on it longer, it's getting better. Longer does not make it better. Same with writing.

Yeah. You could sometimes go, I have it. Oh my God. You go past it. I've messed it up now. I've tried to elongate that point. Yes. And that's where collaboration comes in.

It's like, hey, it was better before. Absolutely. And also we can even do it with ourselves because I always refer back. yes and that's where collaboration comes in it's like hey it was better before absolutely and also we can even do it with ourselves because i always refer back like um there'll be a moment when i feel like we have something like early in the process of like this this is the clue of what we're gonna you know like this the the seed that we love the the demo demo, it might even be a snippet of just the way, the feel of a certain piece of music, or it could be a tiny little fragment. But this fragment is the reason we're going to go on this journey. I always refer back to that fragment later on and say, are we as good as the fragment?

Are we better than the fragment? Are we worse than the fragment? Are we worse than the fragment? Because it's fine to be different than the fragment, but if it's not at least as good as the fragment, it's all been a waste of time. That must be really hard. Yeah. Well, I'll give you a specific example. The first album I put out with Johnny Cash was essentially Johnny Cash in my living room playing me songs on a guitar. That was not the intention for that album. The original intention was we were figuring out what songs to do. He was demonstrating the songs for me. And then we went to different studios with different bands and

tried recording the songs in different ways. And none of them were as interesting as what he played in the living room for me. And that's what ended up being the album. For many people, because they went to the issue and expense of going into the studio with musicians, the studio version would be the album. In our case, it's like, what's the best of what we have? Well, actually, that original homemade demo was more interesting than the produced version.

So we put out the homemade demo version. Is it possible for that to be a perfect album? I don't know. There are some that when I listen to them, they feel perfect to me. And when I say perfect, it's like perfect with all of its imperfections, like perfect for what it is. For me, when I listen to the White Album, it feels like I wouldn't change anything. I mean, not that I could, but when I listen to it, that's how that goes.

There's a D'Angelo album called Voodoo that I love. I wish I made that album. It's a beautiful album. And that one, when I listen to it, it's like, there's nothing else like that. It's so good. Love Forever Changes is one that, when I listen to it, it's a unique, one-of-a-kind album. No one made an album before it or after it like it,

and it's magnificent. Yeah. So interesting you said, to you. Yeah, it's only to me. Exactly. It can only ever be. No, and there's no, and I'm sure that there are many fans of their favorite artists' made albums that in their mind mind are perfect and it's great it's great it's only we all have our own

stories you know it's nothing nothing is true it's how we perceive it i've struggled with perfectionism a lot of my life and um i've I, I keep bringing up how this podcast has changed my life. One of the things that's done that I haven't mentioned so far is it's helped me to embrace imperfection because on these long form conversations, it's not about perfection. Actually, if there's a stumble, if you don't quite get your words out the right way, if someone comes in with coffee, I think that's the vibe. I think podcasts are the modern day campfire in a massive way. I think that's why these long-form conversations are taking off all around the world. People are feeling a deep sense of connection. I remember when I was at university

at Edinburgh, where I was at medical school, I played in a band. That's kind of a huge focus for me in Edinburgh. And we were in the studio near Edinburgh airport called Split Level. And, you know, it was really exciting for us because it was the first time we'd been in a recording studio, you know? So, you know, you're a young band trying to make your way and, oh is a studio and again I look back now and think I would bring perform oh I mean it's in the studio so it's got to be a certain way which again is I didn't realize at the time actually but it's taking you out of authenticity and into some sort of performance aspect which I thought I needed to do but I remember there was a there was a song I wrote called tell me why and we went in there all weekend I must have recorded the vocal track

30 or 40 times oh no it's not quite right not quite right and then with the engineer we went through line by line picking the perfect. And the finished version or that iteration probably had 20 different takes in it. Each line perfect in its own right. You play it afterwards, sounded awful. And I was like, I don't get it. I don't think there's 20 perfect lines in there, but the soul was missing there was just something so i think i didn't realize it at the time i can articulate it now looking back but is that something you've seen happen in the studio before is that something you still experience absolutely and we'll you know we'll often do multiple vocal takes and put them together and sometimes it's not

about looking for perfection. It's looking for the thing that interests you. You're listening for which lines sound interesting and which ones work best together more than is each one perfect. But there are lots of recordings where every line is perfect and they work. If we listen to Earth, Wind & Fire records are fairly perfect. records where um lots of recordings where every line is perfect and they work you know if we listen to uh earth wind and fire records are fairly perfect and they're magnificent yeah

so again there's no right or wrong there's no right or wrong no for sure i mean music has a way of just doing something inside to people that i think very few other art forms can do um and i guess we all experience it differently i've always like i've always felt i viscerally can feel sorts of things in music i know you've worked with chad smith on many occasions of the chili peppers he's one of my favorite drummers and for me when i hear i've always felt this like And for me, when I hear, I've always felt this, like Chad can play what is seemingly a 4-4 rock beat, but I feel like he's talking to me through that.

Any other drummer or drummers I know would play it. It would just sound like a very metronomic, static 4-4 rock beat. But Chad seems to bring it alive as if those drums are talking to me, like it's having a conversation with me. And I remember when I saw them live in Manchester a few years ago, it was just incredible how... I don't know. Within what do you think it is? I mean, it's unbelievable. And it's true with the, they're the musicians who, who just transcend their instruments. He's one of those people where it,

what he's, what he's playing doesn't have to draw attention to itself. He can play the simplest thing yet. You can feel it's different than the way anyone else plays it. And it just lives in a different way. It's true with guitar players. It's true with musicians. It's true with great bands. What makes a band great usually is the way each of the members feel the music, the differences between each of the way the members feel the music.

Like in Metallica, the drums push ahead of the guitars. Yeah. In ACDC, the drums lag behind the guitars. And that's part of the sound of those bands. It's the imperfection. That's what makes it sound. The tension created by the way each musician interprets the music and the different timings combined together to make this sound that's bigger than everybody playing it exactly, precisely, correctly. Yeah. I think there's a lesson in that for all of us in our relationships, in our lives, in so many ways.

Rick, you've been public about your struggles with depression in the past. I wonder if you could sort of talk us through what happens. One of the key elements of that for me is that you have said that you feel more grounded now than you did before you suffered from depression yes before i suffered depression I felt more like a sense of, this will sound funny, but I guess the best way to say it is like a superhuman feeling of like nothing could affect me. And once something affected me, it's much more, I would say now I'm more grounded and rooted in reality, where before I might have been more,

I don't know the right word for it. Yeah, I can't think of the right word, but just not, I wasn't able to empathize as much with other people's problems before because it didn't seem to me like it was possible. Like I didn't have an understanding of what difficulties felt like because I was apart from it. Yeah. And when I say that, I still had difficulties, but they were manageable. Depression is different than regular difficulties. Yeah. manageable depression is different than regular difficulties yeah you know there's a difference between not being able to accomplish something you want and feeling hopeless they're two different

things or feeling so bad and not understanding why you know it doesn't the thing about depression that's so crippling is that it doesn't make sense. It's not rooted in outward, my experience of it, it wasn't rooted in what was going on in my world. It was just something triggered this emotional response that I'd never had before. And I felt like I was dying. It was a wild experience and it lasted a long time. It was a comment, wasn't it? Made by someone. It was just a comment. And it was a

comment that anyone else heard the comment in my position would have been like, okay, we'll deal with it when we get back. But for some reason it was, um, it touched a nerve of vulnerability that had never been touched in me before. Was it that, I guess as an adult, you'd had huge amounts of success in music right from the get-go? Or was it to do with, I don't know, elements of your childhood? Was it happy, peaceful? Did it go without? I think you've said once before that you hadn't really had to overcome many obstacles. So when that happened, you had no tools to deal with it. That's exactly right. That's exactly what it was. So was it an idyllic childhood? Absolutely. I was an only child. I would say I was spoiled, although I don't know that I necessarily acted spoiled. But I didn't...

My wants were met in childhood. And then had great success before I even knew that I started a career. So I wasn't prepared for any type of... And I guess what it really had to do with the sense of support. So I always had the sense that my parents supported me in anything that I wanted to do. That's the way they raised me. It was like, you're great.

You could do anything and we will support you to the end of time. And then when I had success in music, the powers that be in music when you're successful are very supportive. So I had this ramp of support. And then when I turned 33, someone questioned it for the first time. And again, it was minor. It worked out fine. It actually ended up in a better place than it would have been had it not happened. It was all fine. But I just didn't know how to deal with it. And without even knowing what was happening, because I didn't really know what depression was. I didn't know what a panic attack was. I just knew that I couldn't sleep. I couldn't breathe. And I thought I was dying. It was a wild, wild experience.

And did you at the time know with your rational mind, this is nothing? No. wild experience and did you at the time know with your rational mind this is nothing no so it wasn't that you knew cognitively this is nothing i shouldn't be reacting like this but i am you just didn't know did you feel out of control absolutely but but not in a way i felt out of control in a way that i didn't understand i didn't understand what was happening yeah it none of it made sense the way my body was reacting didn't make sense felt like i had no control of myself i had no control because again i can't say that what what the comment was anything that upset me in the moment wasn't like that it was more of just a it was like a question mark but somehow it like planted a seed in me or, or like,

it's like it let the air out of my balloon. That's what it felt like. Do you still consider yourself someone who suffers with depression? I would say I can be moody. I don't, I have not really felt true depression in some time, although I've had two big bouts of it in my life, that first one, and then it happened again years later. Not as bad the second time as the first time, and none since changing my schedule, being in the sun, changing my schedule being in the sun changing my diet all of those things really have helped oh wow so since obviously we talked about it earlier on in this conversation since you were with phil since you lost your weight you had the vitality change your diet yes see natural light yes then you haven't had any since then no i will say i still can be moody for sure yeah but never like

i don't i don't think that i crash the way i did you're well known for doing sauna and cold plunge yes uh i had the podcast you did with tim ferris a few years back in the sauna was that in your house it was yeah i mean i it was pretty awesome listening to it i was thinking how how is no one burning themselves here or it was really it was difficult um it was difficult and he had it where we were holding the mics which was insane so we had the mics wrapped in towels to be able to hold them and every on on occasion, you'd touch the metal and burn your hand. I mean, first of all, why did you elect to do that podcast with Tim? It was my idea.

It was actually my condition for doing the podcast was I'll do it if we do it in the sauna. And the reason was at that point in time, I hadn't done very many interviews ever. And I had never done a long form interview. And I thought to take away any apprehensions that I have, one of the things that we, our friends, my friend, Gabby Reese, the volleyball player, she calls it the truth box. And we noticed over time from doing sauna all together that the conversations in the sauna get really good and really real.

And I think any protection you have up goes away in the sauna to protect yourself from the heat so you're so focused on the discomfort of the heat that what you say is uh very pure the trick box yeah and i thought if i do this with you and i met him but i didn't really know him very well then i said let's suit in the sauna because i know the conversation will be really real yeah So let's do that. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, you should have said we could have turned the air conditioning off at the start. It's pretty hot, actually. It's pretty hot.

And why do you use sauna and cold plunge? Like, when did you bring that into your life? Why did you bring it in? And I guess what kind of impact has it had? Started in probably could be as much as 10 years ago now after you suffered with depression for the first time much after long after but was this part of the process of you on this health journey trying to yes this is after i started training yeah um i'd lost the. I started training and got invited into a sauna with some sports friends of mine. And we would go in the sauna, and it's in the middle of winter, and jump into the ocean after. And I remember being terrified of the whole thing and doing it and absolutely loving it from the very first time I did it and found that through these repeated, you know four rounds of

very hot sauna and very cold It hadn't it had a euphoric effect I would say I'd never felt better in my life Then at the end of a session of sauna and ice. Best mood I've ever been in my life. And also, if I had any concerns in life, anything I was worried about, that all went away in the sauna, for sure. Once you get into a practice of getting into an ice bath on a regular basis,

nothing else in your life will be a challenge. Yeah, it's super interesting. I hear about what happens at Laird's Pool, and I'd love to chat to Laird at some point or Gabby. Yeah, that'd be great. I find it so fascinating what they're doing. Something that actually, as we record this it's not it's not been released publicly yet um there's a chap called irwin lacore yeah um move nat guy yeah

he has got a new breath work uh course i think it's called breath hold work meditation and he was running them as live four-week courses um and he did about four or five of those over a few months feedback was incredible i did one of them and he's going to launch it online fantastic shortly it is unbelievable now i've done loads of breath work stuff in the past what is different about this like just to just to give a top line overview i went in you're meant to do two sessions a week for four weeks with with erwin on and first session he asked you to take a you know without any warning take a you know full breath in and hold your breath and i think i could i think i was actually in sweden for the first session i

was there uh one of my books had just come out there i just landed got to the hotel i could just do a minute for breath hold four weeks later and i didn't even do both sessions twice a week i held my breath for four minutes 30 incredible in four weeks incredible and that was absolutely not a physiological adaptation it was all the mind wow and and what why i feel this practice is so phenomenal a bit like what you just said about the colds yes basically you get to the point where your body is screaming for you to take a breath yes which is one of the most primal um you know signals for survival yes in that moment he helps you learn how to quieten your mind so it's not about holding on it's actually can you get still can you get quiet can you almost get into a deep meditative state and then you think you need a break you've still got another minute to go a minute and a half and i do many things for my well-being but i reckon you would

love this it sounds fantastic it's and i having done loads of breathwork courses this is very different and it's been life-changing like i feel if you can control your mind when your body's screaming you feel empowered You feel empowered anywhere. You think, oh, the train's there. Oh, okay. Oh, they're shouting at me. Okay, no worries. Yeah.

So would you say the cold's an element of that? Absolutely. Mental toughness. Mental toughness. And being able to stay in it is purely mental toughness. It has nothing to do with the physical. It's all mental. It's all mental.

Yeah. Out of all the things that you've done for your health and well-being over the years which are the most important ones would you say for you i would say um eating animal protein sleeping on a cold bed so that's either uh the sleep aid or the chili pad, either one of those or the uller. Those are the choices. And sauna and ice. And I suppose whatever physical practice I'm doing. And meditation.

That's another key. Yeah. The basics, which people have known for years, right? That's it. That's it. Yeah. And I think actually the diet, the reason I say diet first is if you exercise and don't diet, it seems to mean practically nothing. And if you diet and add exercise, it multiplies. It's like it changes everything. So I would say it's 90% diet, 10% exercise. But

if you do the 10% exercise, you get 50% of the bonus. The numbers don't make sense. Yeah. The numbers don't make sense. It's nonlinear, isn't it? No, no, no. But I would say diet first, then exercise, and then the extra bonus things. But sleeping on cold is really profound. Really profound. Have you experimented at all? I have actually. I've tried eight sleep once as well. I thought it was brilliant. When you have that cold bed. And what I love that you can alter for your partner as well.

Absolutely. Different temperature. And you can sleep with a blanket and be cozy yeah and still keep your body cool um i sleep much deeper on a cold bed and i like that bring anything with you when you're traveling to try and replicate that no well i in the different places in the world i have houses in different places and i i have cold sleeping in all the places that i live but on this trip i don't have it and it's and my sleep is falling apart there you go yeah to the point where you might bring something with you next i don't know it's big to bring it's like i

have to figure out a way yeah i figure out a way i'm hoping it gets to the point where it's popular enough where they'll just be everywhere yeah i'm sure it will soon yeah um be nice like a biohacking hotel that has only red lights at night and oh man the lights in hotels at night the bane of many people's existence the bright lights could actually bit of advice sure almost feel a bit cheeky asking but i guess it's not in private it's while some microphones are running that's fine you know if someone had told me when I was 14, I'd be sitting face to face with you, the teenage wrong and probably wouldn't have believed it. And over the past few years, I've realized that I wrote a section in my last book about

worshiping the wrong heroes, that this idea of hero worship is fundamentally flawed. It's an idea I'm kind of really working on at the moment, maybe for my next book. I think it's problematic because we only see one element of these so-called heroes. We think we want to play golf like Tiger Woods, but if you want to play golf like Tiger, you also probably have to have the broken marriage, the painkiller addiction, the public humiliation, all those things come with it not just the little bit you want so but i've i've sort of let go of a lot of that over the past few years and having met a lot of high profile and famous people and realizing that everyone's got the same issues and everyone's insecure everyone's a human yes

it kind of helps you with that and absolutely and stop and stop elevating people but i for much of my life wanted to be a musician so um i think even at third year at uni i took a year out to immunology and i came back at christmas i told my mom and dad i'm i said i'm quitting i'm going on the road with the bands and And I don't think I really meant it. I think I was trying to get a reaction and oh boy, I got a reaction, certainly from my dad. And my mom managed to keep the peace and said, why don't you just finish your immunology degree? Then you can go, you know, she was just trying to stall me. And a huge part of my life in Edinburgh was playing in bands and writing. And, you know,

I remember when I left Edinburgh, I came back to Manchester, I recorded with my, like a solo EP, and, you know, there's a great radio station called XFM, one of the singles, ended up being single of the week. So, you know, low grade elements of, you know, in inverse commas, success, but no record deal, nothing like that. And I actually don't believe that would have been the right career for me anyway. I feel that I have found my true calling over the last six or seven years, you know, pretty much since my dad died, I've looked at my life. And now what I do in medicine, with my podcast, with my books, I feel is a form of art and creativity that allows me to use the skills and practices I've learned to share with people, which helps me and also helps them.

But over the last few years, Rick, it's been niggling away at me that there's a part of me, which is a songwriter, that is That is unexpressed. Yes. And I think it's really become clear over the last two weeks because as part of my research for this conversation, I've been delving into albums I haven't heard in years. Blood, Sugar, Sex, Magic, Wildflowers. It's just been such a joy. And I'm feeling that visceral connection again to music.

But the problem, Rick, in my head, and I guess I'm asking you as an invisible, now a visible life coach, I feel I've changed since I used to write songs. I think when I used to write songs, I was very derivative. I think I was trying to be someone. You know, when I was 13 or 14, I wanted to be Jon Bon Jovi. That's all I used to write songs I was very derivative I think I was trying to be someone you know when I was 13 or 14 I wanted to be John Bon Jovi that's all I wanted to be

like I literally wanted to be him and I think yeah some of my intonations yeah you know like many British people we put on an American accent when singing because I don't know why is it softer is it less harsh and now when because I've recently have why. Is it softer? Is it less harsh? And now when, because I've recently have been picking up the guitar again, I've got some verses going, I've got some things going, and I'm like, that's pretty good. But I feel that I've got old patternings in my voice that I don't feel are authentically me. So I have a real struggle through my podcasting and uh literary career yes i feel particularly my last book i found my voice and who i am yes but i don't feel and again i'm probably being harsh on myself but i don't feel that my singing voice yes is in the same place if an artist came to you with this sort of quandary uh what might you say to them

i would say if you found your writing voice on your fifth book we can learn from that so it sounds like by the time you get to your fifth album you'll find your voice vocally and it's not going to happen without doing the work. So I would suggest that you write and record as much as you can all of the time. And instead of thinking of it as, think of it as a hobby. Just think my hobby is I'm going to write and record songs. And then there'll come a time through that process where you'll look back and go, hmm, I think this batch is ready to share with people. Luckily, you're not obligated to share anything because you're sharing the podcast and you're sharing the books and you're sharing your medical practice. the books and you're sharing your medical practice so it truly can be a personal hobby until it until it grows into something more than that which it will naturally do by itself but it won't happen without doing the work and it's only going to be the work that's going to make it happen

yeah and do you think that element we were talking about before about beware of the assumption that the way you work is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it i'm thinking like should i again is this procrastination should i get a different guitar which won't maybe lead me to those old patterns should i instead of the usual chords i would use to song right do i put a capo halfway up and actually try and shake things up try it all try all that try writing a song on the piano try doing all those things yeah see what happens try uh go go on a service that has beats and you know go on soundcloud and find a beat you like and write to that beat so totally shake it up completely try things see surprise yourself

with what works for you i just i love that advice and um it's a it's advice that i literally will put in some practices immediately. Beautiful. You'll definitely learn through the process. You'll learn both through successful and failed experiments. Each one will get you closer to where you're going. It's impossible to know until you try as many things as you can try, and you'll be surprised.

You'll say, oh, these three things are all kind of good. I've never done done them these way before or the old way is still the best or you won't know there's no way to know um and you also find out what's most fun like what where you what part of the discovery process is most exciting to you and that might work its way into it sounding a particular way if you're engaging in it in a way that um sparks something new in you out of the excitement of the way that it's happening yeah so much to think about it's it's really something that i just can't shake at the moment. And I feel, I don't regret not playing as much for the last six or seven years. I've still got with my band, a covers band in Chamonix in France,

we'll go and play two or three gigs every winter. And yeah, but they're covers, you know, and that's nothing wrong with that. People are having a good time. We enjoy playing, but I do feel, do you feel there's a limit to creativity um i what i mean by that is i have told myself over the past few years or wrong and you're using up your creative energy and i know this as i say it so i guess i'm bringing it out into the open yeah to yeah

in my books and my podcast so i don don't have much left for songwriting. No, no, no. No, you may run out of energy, but not creativity. You know, you may be too tired, but that's all. In some ways, the more you engage in different creative practices, the better they all get. They all get better. The thing that taps out first is just energy.

You run out of steam, but not out of ideas or creative spirit. It's eternal and forever. I feel very honored that I've had some visible life coach advice from you about that. I will be sure to let you know how it goes. Yeah, I'm excited to hear. I've said it enough times, but I'll say it again, Rick. This is just wonderful, this book. I

treasure it so, so much. I've got this early copy on a bound, you know, printed out papers, all my scribbles in, but the actual copy is just beautiful um you got no quotes on the book no and uh you were saying just before we started recording that that was intentional it was intentional from me and i was happy that the publishers went along with my wish um most books have quotes on them and quotes are a marketing tool. And it seems like if you put marketing information on something, it makes it a product. And I don't really think of it as a product. So that was the thought.

Many different chapters in this book. thought many different chapters in this book are there any that come to mind as ones that yeah that's the one that's the one that really helped me or helped you you know no i'm i'm continually surprised by it as i've had to read it to give you know either to read it to understand the editor's notes or read it to give my notes of things that I think can be improved. I'm surprised by so much of the information in the book and it's not, it doesn't live in the front of my mind. So it's, it came through a lot of searching and so much of the information is intuitive. Yet when I read it, it's like, oh yeah, it is like that. You know, like that's, that's my relationship to it is it's, it's, it's a hard thing to describe. It's the best version of seven years of thought that's not there now.

Yeah. Rick, I don't know what else to say, but thank you. I'm drawn back to the intro again. Nothing in this book is known to be true. It's a reflection of what I've noticed, not facts so much as thoughts. It is going to help so many people. It really is. It's certainly helped this man already in the past two weeks. So thank you for that. Thank you for first and foremost,

making the art that moved you. Yes. That's a key lesson for me and um in doing so you've also helped to move the lives of many people this podcast is called feel better live more when we feel better in ourselves yes we get more out of our life i think your own physical transformation story perfectly demonstrates that right at the end of this conversation right at the end of what i hope won't be the last conversation we have do you have any final thoughts or ideas to share with people there's a lot of people struggling in the world a lot of people they feel stuck in

their jobs and their relationships a lot of people think oh art yeah but you know i did that at school i don't have time for art you know i've got real adult responsibilities have you got any kind of final words that you'd like to share with people? Yeah, I would say that we are in control of our own lives. We often don't realize we're in control, but we're in control of our own lives and we can make different choices. And if the things in our life are not bringing us joy and happiness, if our career that we've devoted all of our lives to isn't bringing us joy, if our career that we've devoted all of our lives to isn't bringing us joy, we can change them.

If we decide our relationship is not the right relationship, we don't have to suffer in that relationship. We have our own power, and we can make a change, and it takes courage. But it's in everyone's best interest for us to take care of ourselves, to be in a relationship or in a job where you're phoning it in because you think it's your responsibility to do the job. There's probably someone who would do that job with passion and bring more to it than you are. In your relationship, if you've fallen out of love and you're going through the motions, you're not doing anyone any favors. It's not real. And, um, and if you feel depressed and you can't manage the life you're in, you can go move to

another part of the world. You can live on a beach. You know, you can, you can, there's so many options available to us that we don't, you know, we're stuck in our small story of who we are and what our lives are. And it's all a choice. And we have the power to change it. Anything, anything in our lives that doesn't give us joy, we can change and we can find the version that suits us. And it's not only in service to us.

It's ultimately what's best for everyone. When you're on an airplane and they say, if the plane's going to go down, these masks are going to fall down, put your mask on first before you put on your child's or anyone else's, which is counterintuitive. We always think we take care of our children first. But if you're not taking care of yourself, you can't take care of anyone else. So I would say primarily take care of yourself first. If you want to save the world, save yourself and then save your immediate family and then save your immediate neighborhood and then save your town, start with small circles and build out. Do you know meta meditation? The

meta meditation is, may I be filled with loving kindness, may I be well, may I be peaceful in it, may I be happy. We repeat these four phrases over and over again. And for the first year or so of doing it, it's may I. And then after a year of may I, we've built up a strong enough charge to say may we. And the we might be your immediate family first. And you do that for another year and build up the power in that unit. And then you can extend it. And by the fifth year, you can do it for the planet, but you can't do it for the planet first because there's no built up charge. So do what's necessary to take care of yourself, build yourself up, have the strongest charge possible that you could then share and make the world a better place. Brilliant advice. Rick, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

My pleasure. Thank you. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, do think about one thing that you can take away and start applying into your own life. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only

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