Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee - Sadhguru: Why You Should Stop Focusing on Sleep, How To Listen To Your Body & The True Meaning of Yoga #372

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

My guest this week is Sadhguru, a yogi, mystic and visionary, who has been named one of India’s 50 most influential people. He is the world’s most-watched yogi, he has more than 20 million followers on social media and more than a billion views on his YouTube channel, where he regularly shares guided meditations, wisdom, stories and guidance for living a more contented and meaningful life.   He has written two New York Times bestselling books, has been a lead speaker at the United Nations General Assembly, a special invitee at TED and has also founded the Isha Foundation, a volunteer-run social outreach organisation, that aims to improve mental, physical and spiritual wellbeing for all.   I start off this conversation asking Sadhguru for his perspective on the current sleep loss epidemic and I think his thoughts on this topic, may surprise you. Instead of focussing on sleep, Sadhguru actually wants us to widen our consciousness and concentrate on what really matters - being awake for life.   He also explains the importance of living life, more through perception rather than expression, and why he has managed to thrive on only 2-3 hours sleep a night, for much of his adult life.   Sadhguru is keen to encourage people to become more in tune with their own bodies. He believes that instead of always looking to external ‘experts’, we should spend time cultivating our own inner expertise.   Listen to your body, he says. What is it telling you? External input is not intelligence, it’s merely information. When it comes to what or when to eat, when or how much to sleep, our prescription should be what feels right and what makes us feel alive.   We also talk about modern, allopathic medicine and how that fits alongside more holistic, traditional modalities like Ayurveda. We both agree that while modern medicine can be an effective solution for infection and injury, it is at its core, best at emergency care not health care. And that most chronic illness comes as a result of our collective modern lifestyles - things like diet, environment and stress.   He also explains the true meaning of yoga – more than a series of postures, it’s a way of understanding the world. Yoga means union, and we are in union with every other organism in the living world.    This podcast is a little different from my usual episodes. Sadhguru introduces some challenging, unusual ideas and turns them into compelling arguments for living a yogic, united life. It’s an engaging conversation with a charismatic guest – I hope you enjoy listening. Thanks to our sponsors: https://www.seed.com/livemore https://www.vivobarefoot.com/livemore https://www.drinkag1.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/372 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Every day, so many people, a few hundred thousand people, don't wake up the next day. So, when you wake up in the morning, pinch yourself and see if you're genuinely alive. Give yourself a smile. Because if you really look at it, you think you have a job, you think you have money, you think you have wealth, you think you have family. No, the only thing that you have is life. If this one thing is taken out of you, you have money, you think you have wealth, you think you have family. No, the only thing that you have is life. If this one thing is taken out of you, you have nothing. You're just alive for a brief time. So this brief time, if you're still alive today, just give yourself a smile because

this is the greatest thing. The greatest phenomena happening here is life. You need to pay attention to that and it's throbbing within you. Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More. How often do you speak to people with different perspectives or people who have very different backgrounds to

yourself? You see, one of the consequences of the way that many of us consume media these days is that we often get exposed to the same worldviews. We end up following and listening to people with similar opinions to our own and people who have similar perspectives. But I think there is something incredibly powerful about talking to people who may see the world a little bit differently than we do. My guest this week is Sadhguru. Sadhguru is a yogi, mystic and visionary who has been named one of India's 50 most influential people. He is the world's most watched yogi. He has more than 20 million followers on social media and more than a billion views on his YouTube channel where he regularly shares guided

meditations, wisdom, stories and guidance for living a more contented and meaningful life. He's written two New York Times bestselling books, has been a lead speaker at the United Nations General Assembly, a special invitee at TED, and has also founded the Isha Foundation, a volunteer-run social outreach organization that aims to improve mental, physical, and spiritual well-being for all. Now I start off our conversation asking Sadhguru for his perspective on the current sleep loss epidemic, and I think his thoughts on this topic may well surprise you. Instead of focusing on sleep, Sadhguru actually wants us to widen our consciousness and concentrate on what really matters, being awake for life. He also explains

the importance of living life more through perception rather than expression and why he has managed to thrive on only two to three hours sleep a night for much of his adult life. He is extremely keen, as am I, to encourage people to become more in tune with their own bodies. Instead of always looking to external experts, we should spend time cultivating our own inner expertise. Listen to your body, he says What is it telling you? External input is not intelligence It's merely information

When it comes to what or when to eat When or how much to sleep Our prescription should be what feels right And what makes us feel alive. Having said that, he does share a few universal principles that he thinks will help people thrive. For example, it's better not to eat within three to four hours of bed and that we should try our best to eat fresh food, not food that was prepared hours, days or even weeks earlier because in his opinion this can lead to inertia in body and in minds. We also talk about modern allopathic medicine and

how that fits alongside more holistic traditional modalities like Ayurveda. We both agree that while modern medicine can be an effective solution for infection and injury, it is at its core best at emergency care, not healthcare. And we also discuss our view that most chronic illness comes as a result of our collective modern lifestyles. Things like diet, of our collective modern lifestyles. Things like diet, lifestyle, environment, and stress. In fact, Sadhguru has a really interesting take on stress. He says that it is absolutely not a given in modern life and claims that he could put himself through any situation

and stay intact physically, emotionally, and mentally. He also explains the true meaning of yoga, more than a series of postures, it's a way of understanding the world. Yoga means union, and we are in union with every other organism in the living world. I must say, I felt very lucky to have the opportunity to speak to such a well-respected and influential individual. I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with him. And of course, I hope you enjoyed listening. Now, please do stay with this conversation. The more of it you listen to, the clearer things become. And as a side note, most of my team has already listened to this episode and they tell me that it gets better

and better with each subsequent listen. In fact, some of my team members have already listened to this conversation on four separate occasions and they tell me that they are gleaning new bits of wisdom every single time. There is no question that this episode is a little bit different from my usual ones. My request is that you listen with an open mind and an open heart. And now, my conversation with Sadhguru. I thought we'd start off by talking about sleep. I've been a practicing medical doctor now for over two decades. And I would say that one of the commonest problems I've seen and a problem that is rapidly increasing is many people coming in saying, I can't sleep. I can't sleep, doctor.

Can you help me? From your perspective, what do you think is going on? My life and work is about how to make people more awake than they are right now. Now you're telling me people are having problem to sleep.

I think the biggest problem is most people are half asleep during the day when they're awake. To become more awake to life is more important. If you become more awake to life, sleeping when it's needed for the body, because sleeping is a downtime for the body to kind of undo itself and also do itself fresh. This is happening all the time.

Probably, I don't know how, I'm not a medical practitioner, nor do I have any knowledge in that area. But from the yogic perspective, from the perspective of, you know, how my life happens, because you said you're two decades practicing medicine.

I've been practicing life for six and a half decades. So from that, from that aspect, I'm saying that sleep is a kind of a downtime, both the hardware that we have and the software that we have. Hardware will go into a certain level of fatigue that it needs to recoup itself. And the software also goes into a different kind of fatigue where the software being more nebulous kind of substance can lose its form. So sleep is a time to recoup that, not necessarily making it the same form, but it can come out with a new form. Every day if a flower blossoms,

no flower looks the same as it's another flower. Even in the same plant, if a thousand flowers come out, no flower looks exactly the same. This is the nature of sleep. Every day when you sleep and wake up, you don't have to wake up as the same person. You don't have to wake up exactly same software.

Unfortunately, people are thinking that's a great virtue that always I remain the same. No, you must blossom into fresh possibilities. Sleep could be used as a tool to rejuvenate yourself, to transform yourself, to become an absolutely new possibility. But right now, it is, you know, people, because they're in a state, a lot of people are in a state of lack of physical activity. And on the level of the mind,

I'm sorry I'm using such a term, but it's a mental diarrhea through the day. So in the night, they can't stop it. See, if you have physical diarrhea, you can't stop it in the night. Even in the night, you will have to wake up. This is what mind is doing. What is important is a lot of people today,

if they don't know any other more subtle way of doing things, the simple thing to do is increase the physical activity and reduce the mental activity. How do I reduce the mental activity? If you invest more in perception and less in expression, your mental activity will naturally come down. Right now, this generation of people are too much expression, hardly any perception. When you say perception and expression, what exactly do you mean by that? Because I think there's something very interesting there for me that I've not heard about in the context of sleep before.

So I wonder if you would mind expanding on that a little bit. When we say perception, say right now the five instruments of perception for you right now is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. It is through this that you know entire life. It is through this that you're a doctor. Yes or no? Yes.

Even now, if a patient comes to you, you touch him, you look at him, you feel him. And only through five senses, you're perceiving life. There are other ways to perceive life, but let's not talk about that.

But five senses are vital. If we want to survive on this planet, as instruments of survival, they are vital instruments. So when we talk about sleep, when we talk about food, when we talk about health, we're essentially talking about survival.

So let's limit ourselves to five senses. So how you see, how you hear, how senses. So how you see, how you hear, how you smell, how you taste, how you touch is how you know the world. And whatever information came into you, how you process that depends on how you're identified. Let's say you're identified with a red flower. If you go out into the garden, you will see red will always look brighter than yellow, purple, this, that. There may be thousand other colors, but in your eyes, red will look brighter

because somewhere you're little identified with that. So what you're identified with it will orient all the faculties that you have in that direction. So when perception means one thing is what information goes into you, you can also extend it to say how you process it is also perception, but it is not technically it is not. It is the process.

But because that is determined by certain identities that we have taken on if your identity is just one thing then your process becomes very simple in the our fundamental so when your process is very fundamental you know socially we would say he's a fundamentalist yeah it's so fascinating you mentioned these five senses and you hinted that we can go beyond that. I was recently reading a book where they were talking about some African tribes who consider themselves to have, I think, nine, ten, maybe thirteen senses. Not one of those thirteen senses were the same five as we consider to be the you know the five senses balance in mind balance and body was one of the senses right now right now i'm in united states 13 is a bad number okay okay i'm saying we can come to conclusions and conclusions we are always misunderstanding

our conclusions as perception because socially when you say this is my perception, that's your perception. This is my conclusion and that's your conclusion. That's what we are saying. We're misunderstanding conclusions as perceptions. Perception is just what comes into you. So if somebody has 13 openings instead of 5 through which they are perceiving, fantastic. I won't limit the number. Yeah.

It was asked like this. When Adiyogi, the Shiva was asked by his seven disciples, how many ways can we attain to the highest possibility of being human? He said 112 ways only because that is the number of possibilities that are there in the body. Then his wife who did not, you know, she's a woman and she likes variety. She said, why only 112? Why can't there be more? Maybe you don't know. So he dismissed her. He said, there are only 112. So she went into years of austerity and wanting to see if there are other ways to perceive.

Then she came back. Because the others, the disciples are still there. She didn't want to admit that she lost or she could not find other ways. So she came and sat down one step below him to indicate to him that she is accepting defeat, that she could not find more. Then out of his love and compassion for her, he says, only if you are deeply rooted or identified with your body, there are 112 ways only. But if your identity and your existence itself

is not rooted in the body, absolutely, that you're using the body, but you're not become the body. If you keep yourself like that, he said, there are as many atoms there are in the universe. That many doorways are there to perceive. Yeah, beautiful, really beautiful. For those individuals who, doorways are there to perceive. Yeah. Beautiful.

Really beautiful. For those individuals who are struggling with, as you call it, mental diarrhea, there's too much going on in their minds. They have disturbed minds for want of a better term. No, unfortunately not too much. Unfortunately not enough

going on in their head. Silly stuff is running compulsively. That's all. Not that they're coming up with some profound thought about the existence or the human well-being or the existence of life on this planet, nothing like that. Just day-to-day things going on,

what's on the WhatsApp messages is ruling their minds for the day. So don't use the word too much, nothing much going on, but endlessly going on. Why do you think this problem is getting worse then? Do you think it's because we're moving more towards technology? Let's say 50, 100 years ago, people would be physically using their bodies in the day. They would be getting physically and mentally tired, which would help them in the evenings, whereas now people can be looking at screens all day

and having a lot of mental workouts as opposed to physical workouts. I mean, from your perspective, why is this a problem that seems to be on the rise, certainly here in the UK and in America? All such people who are complaining about technology, I think we should remove machines from their life and ask them to dig the earth with their own hands.

I think they will understand what it used to be. Right? See, this is, I must tell you this. In the, before, before this pandemic, I was in 17 and 18, 2017 and 2018, I was repeatedly invited for artificial intelligence conferences. I said, why are you guys inviting me for

an artificial intelligence? I'm not a technology person, nor am I artificial. Why are you guys inviting me for this? Then they said, our problem is, these were all academics. They said, we're going to lose our jobs. If this AI comes,

we're going to lose our jobs. Then I told them, and I know a situation from 1970s. I remember this so clearly that in the Mazagon docks in Mumbai, you know, the coolies or the labor there went on strike because they installed the first gantry. At that time, the largest ships that came into Mazagon docks were about 125,000 tons.

And to unload that, they would take 24 to 28 days physically unloading bag by bag or whatever. 24 to 28 days physically unloading bag by bag or whatever. They put the first gantry and all these guys went on strike. What are we supposed to do with our muscle? Because you've got a machine now. So today, a quarter million ton vessel gets unloaded in less than 24 hours. So what are all those muscles doing?

We don't know. Maybe they're working out in the gyms. I don't know what they're doing. But the same problem with our brains, technology has come. The idea of technology is, ultimate idea of technology is that none of us have to do any work. That is, we don't have to do anything for a living.

I don't do anything for my living. Somebody takes care of me always because it's about life. It's not about making a living. Survival is not the goal of human existence. Survival has become a big thing because of immediate challenge. Otherwise, if, you know, just look back, don't look at Europe,

just look back other parts of the world 500,000 years ago. People just went about and picked up whatever they want and they lived. Survival was not such a big challenge. When the populations were low and nature was in abundance, people just survived without much effort. such a big challenge when the populations were low and nature was in abundance. People just survived without much effort. But survival became more and more challenge as we got more and more organized. And as a species, we became more dominant than other species, not realizing that it's only in coherence with other species that we can exist here well.

These things have become a challenge. Now we have raised survival to heaven. Even if we want to survive, we're calling God's help because to survive you need four limbs and a few brain cells which are working. This is all you need to survive. But we are making such a big deal about it. And now we are complaining technology is the problem. Technology has made our lives easy. See, you and me are talking.

I'm in Tennessee, you're in London. You and me, will we ever complain about technology? Yeah. I'm saying technology is the greatest thing that's happened to us and it has enabled humanity to do things that we could not imagine possible

just a few years ago. So people are complaining because they're always complaining. People're always complaining. People are always complaining about everything. As I said earlier, the problem is this. There has to be a certain amount of energy invested in perception because perception

or continued perception will make the experience of life profound. Right now, even a 12-year-old child is busy on social media expressing their emotions and their silly thoughts and whatever. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have used

that word silly because I'll get trolled. Oh, you think 12-year-old children are silly? They're not. They're childish and it's okay. That's how they should be at that age. But that's not a time to express. That's a time to perceive and make the experience of life profound. Once your experience of life becomes profound, people will beg you to express.

That's how it should be. Now, because there is technology and there are mediums, everybody is busy expressing nonstop. And where is the time for perception for them? expressing non-stop. And where is the time for perception for them? Is this the difference between external and internal? When you say express, that's putting things out, putting things out.

It's the external world. Whereas when you say perception, what I'm hearing is we're turning that around onto ourselves. We're going inward. It's like this. You said external and internal. Tell me in your mind, point out one thing to me which is not external. I was going to say maybe... No, the language that you're expressing is external.

You picked it up from outside. Okay. And tell me one thing in your body, which is not external. Well, I can't tell you, but I can feel internally. I can feel, I can... No, no, let's not go to the feelings.

But in your body, is there one cell of body which has come from somewhere else? No, it's come externally, whether from your parents or from the world around you in the form of food, isn't it? Yeah. So there is nothing in your body or in your head which is internal. It's all external.

This is what is happening. I was just, you know, yesterday I was just going through this. People are having fun, asking questions about me to chat GPT. I can't believe what all it's saying. So it looks like it's a person talking, but everything is information. And even a person is just that. It's just that we attach so much emotion and consequence to it, we think it's something new.

It is not new. What you have gathered is what you're saying. This is what I'm saying, what you perceive. You can process it in such a way that it becomes profound and valuable. Or you're just expressing in reflection of whatever you see, boom, boom, it's going out every day. In reflection of whatever you see, boom, boom, it's going out every day. Okay, so for that person then who is struggling with their sleep and they're quite wired in their brain in the evening,

I know that you have in previous conversations, interviews that I've seen you give, you have recommended things like, you know, eat three to four hours before bedtime, shower in the evening, maybe light a candle, maybe do some yoga or meditate. How did those practices, in your view, help people fall asleep? When ultimately, as you say, it's actually about expression versus perception where do those practices fit in see these are like when somebody comes to you you're a doctor when somebody comes to you with some problem right now they got some pain and they're in pain. What do you do? You give a painkiller. Is that a solution for life?

No, at that moment, it's a solution because somebody is in pain. So these are just like that. But the real thing is this. The important thing is, which is more important for you? How awake you are right now is more important for you or how asleep you are is more important for you. Because between sleep and wakefulness, the difference is of life and death. When you're asleep, you're dead, literally.

Now people are struggling with sleep because they have been told there's a prescription, you must sleep for eight hours a day, otherwise you will have heart attack. Something, something, all kinds of research around us. I know this is going to get me a massive amount of troll, but it's all right.

Because the important thing is people must understand what you call as life is far more profound than keyhole understanding of do this, do this, do this. We can handle that when you're not well,

we can say, okay, please do this, take this tablet, do this, do this. We can handle that when you're not well, we can say, okay, please do this, take this tablet, do this, do this. But why are you not well? Should you not look at it? Why is it that you don't sleep? Or why is it that you're not fully awake? It's very important to look at life more profoundly than to come to tidbits of do this, do this, and it'll be okay. Definitely, if you go to bed with a full stomach, you'll cause much damage to the system. You are a doctor. I'm sure you have seen the innards of a human being, either dead or alive, you've seen them. So, you know, all the vital organs are in this region, thoracic region. None of them have been fitted with proper clamps

and nuts and bolts all of them are hanging in nets am I correct sir? yeah doctor they are all

hanging in nets now you fill one bag full of food because most people there was a time when human beings

could eat whatever they came in front of them fully load it and push it and eat it, because their activity was at that level. This is how they used to eat. Even now, if you see the labor class, it's like that,

because they're physically working eight, ten hours a day. But today, everybody eats the same way, even though they're not doing that kind of work. Slowly, awareness is coming, fortunately. Otherwise, we have to evolve as our activity evolves because of machines, once again. Our food also has to evolve how we consume, how much we consume, when we consume.

So when we eat all kinds of food, particularly if you're eating meat in some way, you put this in your body and then try to sleep. Of course, you will fall asleep because it will create so much inertia. But now this huge heavy bag, you know metabolism drops in sleep. When metabolic activity drops,

digestive process will not happen well. That is a known fact. Now with this heavy bag lying on various other organs, as you roll this way, that way, it crushes your liver, it crushes your spleen. It does so many things. This heavy bag is on various other organs as you roll this way, that way, it crushes your liver, it crushes your spleen, it does so many things. This heavy bag is a roller in your body.

If you sleep like this, it depends on your constitution. If your parents have given a strong constitution, then it may take a few years before you get ill. If you are a little fragile constitution, within months you'll get there. Every day if you do this. So minimum three to four hours, space must be there and above all you must eat light in the night. Now the problem is, but I woke up, I went to bed at nine o'clock, I woke up at 12.30. Well, that's perfect. So you must not go to bed at nine o'clock, you must go to bed at 12 o'clock and wake up at 12.30. Well, that's perfect. So you must not go to bed at 9 o'clock. You must go to bed at 12 o'clock and wake up at 4 o'clock in the morning. That's how it should be. Now somebody

has told you, you must sleep for eight hours. That somebody who told you, you must sleep for eight hours, obviously is eating wrong and living wrong. Now that's become the standard everywhere. There is no prescription for sleep. On a given day, this body may need five hours sleep. Another day it may need only two hours sleep. Because it depends on the type of activity, what I have done on that day. You just go by the requirement of the body.

Who is giving you moral values as to how to sleep? Yeah. Is it written in one of the commandments, thou shall sleep eight hours? Just taking a quick break to give a shout out to AG1, one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, if you're looking for something at this time of year to kickstart your health, I'd highly recommend that you consider AG1. AG1 has been in my own life for over five years now. It's a science-driven daily health drink with over 70 essential nutrients to support your overall health. It contains vitamin C and zinc, which helps support a healthy immune system, something that is really important, especially at this time of year. It also contains prebiotics

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doubling the five free travel packs to 10. And these packs are perfect for keeping in your backpack, office or car. If you want to take advantage of to drinkag1.com forward slash live more. That's drinkag1.com forward slash live more. I really love that because one of the things I've honestly found in my entire career as a doctor over the course of my career is that number one, different things work for different people. And one of the problems I see at the moment, and I wonder what your perspective is on this, given the position you have in society, given how many people look up to you for guidance, I strongly feel that we have given up our own inner expertise and knowing to outside experts. So one of the reasons I think

people get confused, let's say they hear one interview with one expert saying, you should eat X, Y, and Z. And then they hear an interview with another expert who says, no, you should eat x y and z and then they hear an interview with another expert who says no you should eat a b and c and you shouldn't eat x y and z same expert also is changing his opinion every two years exactly and i think then people get really confused and say well i don't know which one to follow anymore but i think that's the wrong question it's the wrong approach it's not which one of those should i follow it, which is the right approach for me. See, because people are listening to internet, they're not listening to their own life,

nor are they listening to any other life around them. This listening to life, this is what I meant by perception. You listen to what your body is speaking. Whether I should eat today or not, your body will tell you. There is a massive, I mean, you come

from an Indian background, so I am telling you. In India, there is a traditional understanding on which days you must eat, which days you should not eat. Moon is in a certain phase. On that day, we won't eat. We'll be just on fruit diet. If we can fast, we will fast.

Otherwise, we are on fruit diet. Otherwise, essentially the idea is on that day, you must be on light stomach because your digestive process is not the same on that day. These are things that will come to you by observation. There is no observation.

Everything is gathered knowledge. See, we are misunderstanding information for intelligence. This is a serious mistake. Information is not intelligence. Information is data and the data for your, you're a medical professional,

you know this very well. The data for your body and the data for my body will be entirely different on many levels. And you are the expert and you say, this is it. And I am the expert. I say, that is it. This is not the way.

There is no this is it, that is it. The only thing is you must become more awake, not asleep. Because sleep is the problem right now. For me, getting people to a higher level of wakefulness is the problem. If everybody is fully awake, they would realize what's happening in their system. Have they ever paid attention to what is happening?

Whether the stomach is ready to take in food or not. Right now, we are still behaving like foraging animals. Whenever food comes in front of us, we must eat. So that has to go. It is not you must eat this, you must not eat that. The important thing is you must just, this is a litmus test for people. If you eat food, immediately after food, yeah, right now, see, they have fixed this in America.

When they serve you a platter of food, along with that, a bucket full of Coca-Cola or one of those brands, which is essentially Coke, will come. Otherwise, a bucket full of coffee will come. I'm saying a bucket because I don't see any tumblers and glasses, cups in America. It's all buckets. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I really do. Yeah. So when this bucket comes and you drink this, if you don't drink that, most probably you will fall asleep

right there on the table. Yeah. Because the food is so dull, so full of inertia. When I say so full of inertia, almost everything, it is not only in a restaurant or something, almost at homes also,

the food that most people are eating, I'm talking about well-to-do people. I'm not talking about homeless people on the street. Well-to-do people are generally eating an average of 60 to 90 day, 90 day old food on a daily basis.

In Southern India, even today is generally followed in yogic culture any food that we cook we must eat within one and a half hours after that we won't touch it because it will gather what is called as tamas

tamas literally means inertia inertia ultimate level of inertia in you is death partial inertia is coma or sleep is that what you want? You want aliveness. You want dynamism in every cell in your body. If that has to come, you eat food and just observe. No other stimulant. Just observe. If they don't drink a coffee or a Coke or light up a cigarette,

they can't stay awake. You just sit there. If you feel drowsy, you have not eaten the wrong food. If you eat food and you feel very alive, that's the right food to eat. You also recommend having a shower in the evening. Now, conventionally, many people in Western countries will shower in the morning but when i heard you speak about this it was really fascinating to me because it it implied the way you were speaking implied that you were getting a physical cleansing and a kind of emotional cleansing if you take your shower in the evening could you just elaborate on that a little bit, please? Physical cleansing, for sure, everybody understands because today you're going out in the world, there's so much pollution and

what you eat and work and mix with people. You know, we are a heavily populated planet right now. Whether you're going to an office or you get into your bus or wherever, you're coming in contact with so many bodies, maybe not directly, but in so many other ways, with their breath, with the atmosphere around you, automobiles, of course, because they are part of, they are living creatures who live with us, without them we can't exist. All these things together.

So definitely a physical cleansing is there. I did not say emotional cleansing. See, over 70% of your cleansing is there. I did not say emotional cleansing. See, over 70% of your body is water. If you just allow water, it has to be running water. If water runs over you, today running water does not mean river, it means a shower. So I said shower because everybody can't go to river and river is not in a condition where you can even dip yourself anymore because

there becomes a spools across the world. So leaving that aside, if water runs over you, see there is a process in when they build nuclear reactors and also other things which are related to

that nuclear science, when they want to purify a metal, they will purify it in the normal chemical processes to a certain point, but still some micro amount of impurities remain in the metal, part of metallurgical process. impurities remain in the metal, part of metallurgical process. So what they do is, let's say a copper rod, we want to purify this. Now we put a copper ring around it, which is not touching it with a little space, but with electrical charge, move it up and down, up and down, and they find that is the best way to get it to 100% purity. So this is something that we exercise all the time.

That one thing is, let the water flow over you. The breeze in certain seasons, we have what is called as wind wash. And you come from Bengal, so you know this maybe, I don't know, you grew up in UK probably.

So maybe if you've gone back home or to ancestral homes, you would see when somebody goes out and comes, especially children, or anybody goes out with lots of people and if they come back with a little shrunken face, immediately the ladies in the house will say, come and sit down here.

And they'll do a fire wash. It's called Kleshan Ashana. You know, have you seen this? Yeah,'ll do a fire wash. It's called Kleshan Ashana. You know, have you seen this? Yeah, yeah. With fire wash. Because all the five elements can get affected one way or the other by constant transaction in the world.

So when you come back, you may not be able to do all those things. At least water wash you can do. And water wash is important, not only for washing your skin, but apart from that, just water flowing over your body, you will see there is a certain release in the system. I have found, I don't know what your perspective might be on this. I've found that rituals and routines can be incredibly helpful for people. Now, of course, everyone has to find the right routine for them,

but routines both in the evening and in the morning, I have found myself and with many of my patients can be incredibly helpful for physical and mental well-being. Let me be a little more, not so complicated. Let me come down to the world. See, you're always shooting for the ideal. But how many people are willing to shoot for the ideal? When, you know, I was talking to a group of people

many years ago in Nashville, and I was saying, see, if you really want to live an ideal life, this is the way you eat, this is what you do, this is the time you get up, this is what you do. So one guy stood up and said,

Sadguru, if I don't want to be really ideal, don't want to be really top notch, if I want to be number two or three kind of life, what should I do? So you're talking about that, so let me come to that. My aspiration is always how to push people to the top notch. But people always choose number two, three, number 13, you know, whatever. Because they think there is something more important in life than life itself. It's a serious mistake that human beings are making. They think their work or their office or their home or their

anything is more important than life itself. This is life, alright? How this is, is most important. Because what we do depends on how this is. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually,

how this one is, is what it will do. You cannot do anything that you are not. Do you agree with me, doctor? I completely agree, yeah. You cannot do anything other than what you are. If you are a confusion, you will do confusion. Maybe with great conviction, that's the problem.

This is why people believe something. This is why people adhere to philosophies. This is why people adhere to philosophies. This is why people adhere to certain boom, boom, boom practices or rituals or habits because you can beat the confusion with this. Otherwise, every day in the morning, you have to get up and figure out, okay, what do I do today? That's a fantastic way to be if you're not, if you don't have a mind which constantly

threatens you with confusion, if you have cultured your mind to a certain level of discipline, then the best way to get up is without any ritual. But that percentage of population is very, very small, super small. So for the rest of the people, the best thing is some kind of a ritual. Well, even here at the yoga center, morning wake up time is whatever, 5.30. Everybody must assemble for sadhana. It starts with a certain ritual. Then everybody has their specific, there are some common practices. Then everybody has specific practices to do.

Till 8 in the morning is completely spent in this and totally in silence. Everybody is doing their thing. Some people do more with the body, some people with the mind, some people with energies, according to their individual needs. But some basic practices, which are common, and rest, everybody is doing this. So without this ritual, there wouldn't be a yoga center i'm not against the ritual fundamentally i'm against it but in practice i am not against it so in the morning you get up and brush your teeth you can either do it ritualistically or you see that there

is a need it has to be done So there are two ways to do it. You can do it consciously or by habit. I would always prefer that you do it consciously. But most people, if you leave it to their consciousness, their consciousness will go back to sleep. Because their problem is they want to sleep better. They don't want to be more awake. When I'm not against

sleep. Why I'm saying this sleep is compared to your wakefulness right now, your sleep is inertia, isn't it? Yeah. Even though you're a doctor, when you're asleep, as far as you're concerned, maybe not medically, as

far as you're concerned, you're in some kind of coma. Or we can say we are dead actually. We are gone. So in that sense, if you are sleeping eight hours a day, one third of your life, you will sleep it away. That means you won't live.

There is lot of time to die, I'm saying. Because, see, you are 45, am I correct? I'm sorry if I'm saying. Because, see, you are 45, am I correct? I'm sorry if I'm revealing this to all your people. No, you are correct. I don't know how you knew that. But you're absolutely correct.

So, you're 45 years ago you were born. Before that, how long were you dead? An eternity. You don't know, endless amount of time. Now I'll bless you with another hundred years,

hundred years later, when you die. See, when I say death, I'm not wishing you death. All I'm saying is, all of us, nobody is negotiating death. We're only negotiating time. I said hundred years more. Good enough good enough right i'll take that that's good that's uh maybe maybe a bit too long but that's okay 100 years later when you die how long will you be dead an eternity again again endless amount of time so i am saying we are dead for a very long time we are alive for a very little time in this time please tell all your people

not to focus on how to sleep how to stay awake yeah my understanding from researching this conversation is that you only sleep maybe two to three hours four hours a night something like that rest is the basis of activity if you don't sleep well tonight you won't live well tomorrow it's very simple but i've heard you say that the human body actually has no requirement for sleep it actually has a requirement for rest and sleep is just one form of rest almost 26 27 years on an average i slept only two and a half hours per day now i'm you know i'm 60 nearly 66 now i'm getting a little lazy so I'm sleeping average four and a quarter four and a half hours

maybe but that's more than enough for the body it's not like I ever wake up with an alarm bell I have never used alarm bells in my life everybody my my daughter laughing at me I don't know

how to set an alarm on my phone. I just wake up. When body is done with sleep, it wakes up. It's eager to wake up. So first of all, this is the important thing. Have you kept your life both within and around you in such a dynamic and interesting way that everything in you is eager to wake up.

Oh, one more day. Yeah. Is it also that if really the body is asking for rest, I'd be thinking a lot about this because I'd be thinking, how come Sudhir only sleeps two, three, now he's getting lazy, sleeping four hours a night, okay? Conventional medical wisdom would say that most humans need seven, eight, you know, at least six and a half hours, for example. Now, there's two things for me to say there. Firstly... So the prescription is one third of your life you must

leap it off yeah i'm coming to that but i i accept what you're saying and it's clear to me that in your mid-60s if i look at your skin your energy levels it you know your cognition where can you see my this is my hair you can't see much of my skin i can i can see enough to know that there's real vitality and um and real health and you know health there's real vitality and real health and, you know, health, well-being, vitality there. What's interesting to me, two things. First thing, early on in this conversation, you said, Rangan, you've had two decades of clinical practice, but you've had 65 years or, you know, 60 plus years of life experience. Now, I am actually a very open-minded medical doctor. I've always felt that lived experience

is also very, very valid. The other thing I wanted to share there is that I remember... I'm not trying to depreciate the value of scientific knowledge because it has done wonders to us. It has done miracles to us. I'm not either. I'm not either. I'm not either. I also...

The only problem with science is when it comes to life, we are putting everything under microscope and having a keyhole vision of pieces. The nature of life and the universe is such. If you start studying this by pieces and keep making conclusions because nobody will fund your research

if you don't tell them what is the conclusion. If you study for 10 years something, you study my little finger for 10 years and if you don't say anything, nobody is going to fund you, no university is going to keep you, no government is going to support you. Everybody will say you're doing nothing. If you keep you. No government is going to support you. Everybody will say

you're doing nothing. If you say, no, no, this is too complex. We have to study everything at once. Nobody is going to support you. They want to know what all is happening

in the little finger. But there's nothing happening in the little finger which is not instigated by the entire system. So I'm saying the problem is just this. The problem is of economics.

The problem is of attitude. The problem is not of science, really. Science could bring so many things. It's already brought so many solutions and this thing. At the same time, it has also multiplied our problems, made our problems far more complex

than what it was. Why this has happened is simply because every keyhole vision that we have, immediately we have to publish it. We have to put it to use. Otherwise, nobody is going to support science. Yeah. I'm not also trying to denigrate science. I think what has happened in my profession is that there's been an over focus on small reductionist areas of

science and we've not taken into consideration the whole. And I think a lot of the things you're talking about really speak to that for me. Like the human body, the way we function, physical body and mind, you can't reduce it down and still get a picture of the entire whole. That has been one of my frustrations in medicine. And Satyagraha, let me just share with you that it's interesting for me. I've had a European allopathic medical training, right? But at the same time, I've been brought up in an Indian family. So a lot of these principles that Ayurvedic medicine would be talking about for years have also been embedded in me by my family. And what I've always found fascinating, particularly over the last few years,

is how many things that Ayurvedic medicine have spoken about for years. Fasting, circadian biology, food as medicine, getting natural light in the morning are now finally being supported by modern science. And people are now encouraging people to do these things. Doctors are as well. Yet, in India, they've been talking about this for thousands of years. See, in our centers,

everybody eats at 10 in the morning and 7 in the evening. We are all physically very active. Only two meals, irrespective of your age. I generally eat only one meal if I'm at home. If I travel out, maybe I'll eat something in the morning.

It depends because meals are not, food is not, you know, doesn't come as I want. It will come some way in whatever form it comes. So to compensate for that, you may end up eating two times a day, otherwise once a day. So now we've been saying this and you should see the amount of argument we've had in the last 40 years with doctors and scientists telling us this will cause this problem,

this will cause that problem, this will happen, that will happen. This is a diabetic person. How can he eat only twice? He must eat 10 times a day. Well, the thing is, whether diabetes is a commercial enterprise or is it a problem that needs to go away.

Right now, I'm in the United States. There's no single small village which can be without a fire station, you know, always ready. Fire stations are ready, even the tiniest villages. And firemen are there. Apart from that, there are volunteers who train for this.

Everybody is ready. So much investment in putting off fire, which is very nice. But there is not enough investment in teaching our children how not to set fire to our homes. There's not enough investment in building homes which will not to set fire to our homes. There's not enough investment in building homes which will not easily catch fire. So this whole, whatever you said, I don't want to go by geographical identities

of being European or Indian or whatever. Essentially, the modern medicine has been born out of terrible infectious diseases like plague and malaria and whatever else, not malaria, many other things. To handle this, they came up with some miracle solutions. And even now allopathy has the best solutions for infectious diseases because it's a chemical war. It's essentially a chemical war or a physical war because I call surgery a physical war, medicine as chemical war.

So chemical warfare or fighting with knives is two ways of doing this. When an enemy has entered, that's the only way to handle it. So in emergencies, there's nothing like allopathic system, all right? Yeah. If you have had a serious injury or you've been infected with something, you run to the doctor. That's the best thing to do.

That's what everybody should do. But allopathy is called medicine, not health. That's appropriate. I very deeply appreciate the honesty behind that. When you go to a college, you say, I'm studying medicine. You're not studying health. That's appropriate. I'm very deeply appreciate the honesty behind that. When you go to a college, you say, I'm studying medicine. You're not studying health.

You're studying medicine. Maybe you're understanding the biochemistry to some extent and how to manipulate it from outside. But I'm asking you a simple thing, both for physiological and psychological thing. This, especially when I come

to the psychological aspect, there's a massive, you must see the amount of trolls I get for this. But I'm insisting on this because I'm a living proof that I can put myself through any kind of situation. Any kind means just about any kind of situation.

And still I'm intact. Psychologically, emotionally, energy wise, physically I'm intact because thereologically, emotionally, energy-wise, physically, I'm intact because there is a certain way to do it. You, as a doctor, you know the most complex chemical factory on the planet is human system. No debate on that. So this chemical factory, who is running it is a question.

If you're in a state of volatile reaction, compulsive, impulsive reactions, then just about anything runs this chemistry. But if you are a good CEO of this chemical factory, what kind of chemicals would you produce? Would you produce chemicals that will create health, peace, joy, blissfulness, ecstasy? Or would you create anxiety, stress, tension, nonsense,

whatever else that makes you suffer? So for all infectious ailments, allopathy is a wonder. No question. But when we say chronic ailments, it essentially means that we are manufacturing the disease unconsciously. You are not able to create

the right kind of chemistry within yourself for some reason, whatever the reason may be. Sometimes it may have external stimuli. Sometimes it may be completely internal,

the way you think, the way you emote, the way you identified, the way you relate to everything around you. Sometimes it may be completely internal, the way you think, the way you emote, the way you identify it, the way you relate to everything around you. All this may be causing. There may be genetic factors also. But genetic factors usually make a certain organ susceptible. It doesn't necessarily cause the disease.

Because we have always looked at this, your father has this problem, you must have this problem. There is no such thing. You can completely reverse this by changing your lifestyle, by changing your attitude, by changing the way you are.

You can completely reverse that. It's possible. But for you, it may take more effort than it takes for somebody else. Always the argument is, that guy is not doing anything right, but he's okay. All right, he is blessed with a certain level of stability in his system. You may have to work harder. But for everybody, it is possible.

If you are a good CEO, you would produce chemistry of blissfulness. If you are creating a chemistry of ill health and volatility, you're a lousy CEO. That's all it is. It's beautiful to hear that. I very much agree with so much of that perspective on health. It's something I've discovered for myself. It's something I've discovered through my practice, through seeing patients, through helping them reverse chronic diseases by changing the inputs into the system, you know, changing how they think, changing how they approach the world, changing how they eat, all of these kinds of things. You know, what was coming up for me there, Sadhguru, you mentioned you only sleep two to four hours a night, let's say, right? Whereas conventional wisdom, I say

conventional, modern medical wisdom would say- No, no, let me correct that, Rangan. Let me correct that for you. Please. I'm saying you don't decide how much to sleep. You keep the body very vibrant, energetic, eat right, and do those things. Sleep. When the body wakes up, it wakes up.

My body wakes up in four hours, four and a half hours time these days. If I wake up in two and a half or three hours, I'm lazy enough to just again try to go back for another hour. It's not that ever I'm waking up with an alarm bell. It don't prescribe sleep. Just learn to keep the body very alive and energetic. Naturally, the downtime will be less.

It's like this. If you have a car, I don't want to mention a brand because you're in UK, all right? So let's say you have a car which needs service, downtime, one day in a month. All right?

Still worth having that car? But if it needs 10 days in a month. All right? Still worth having that car? But if it needs 10 days in a month service, better to take public transport, isn't it? Yeah. So that's all it is. The downtime is too much. Downtime is too much not because that's a prescription. Downtime is too much because we have not kept it well how

it should be yeah so in my language i'm hearing that as if the purpose of sleep is to help the body rest right if you're generating a lot of physical stress emotional stress, psychological stress throughout the day, your body may naturally need a lot more sleep to recover from all that stress that you've generated. But if you can learn to live with more peace and calm and joy and purpose, maybe in that system, you're generating less stress in the first place. Therefore, when you allow the body to rest... Wait, wait, wait. Why do you say less stress? Because you believe stress is compulsory. No stress. Okay. Okay. I love that. I love that. Hey, I like to push myself and go for things. I love that. So are you then saying it is possible

to live in a state of no stress? Before we get back to this week's episode, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing my very first national UK theatre tour. I am planning a really special evening where I share how you can break free from the habits that are holding you back and make meaningful changes in your life that truly last. It is called the Thrive Tour. Be the architect of your health and happiness. So many people tell me that health feels really complicated, but it really doesn't need to be. In my live event, I'm going to simplify health. And together, we're going to learn the skill of happiness,

the secrets to optimal health, how to break free from the habits that are holding you back in your life. And I'm going to teach you how to make changes that actually last. Sound good? All you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash tour and I can't wait to see you there. This episode is also brought to you by the Three Question Journal, the journal that I designed and created in partnership with Intelligent Change. Journaling is something that I've been recommending to my patients for years. It can help improve sleep, lead to better decision making and reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression. It's also been shown to decrease emotional stress, make it easier to turn new behaviours into long-term habits

and improve our relationships. There are of course many different ways to journal. And as with most things, it's important that you find the method that works best for you. One method that you may want to consider is the one that I outline in the three-question journal. In it, you will find a really simple and structured way of answering the three most impactful questions I believe that we can all ask ourselves every morning and every evening. Answering these questions will take you less than five minutes, but the practice of answering them regularly will be transformative. Since the journal was published in January, I have received hundreds of messages from people telling me how much it has helped them and how much more in control of their lives they now feel. Now, if you

already have a journal or you don't actually want to buy a journal, that is completely fine. I go through in detail all of the questions within the three-question journal completely free on episode 413 of this podcast. But if you are keen to check it out, all you have to do is go to drchatterjee.com forward slash journal or click on the link in your podcast app. See, you're looking at it, being a doctor, you're looking at it in terms of symptoms. If there is more stress, this, this, this, this will happen. This is the main problem with allopathy that it's symptomatic.

That, see, right now it's like this. Let's say you're driving on the London streets. The guy in front of you puts a blinker that he wants to turn right. Suppose we shoot the blinker off.

Will he go straight? So symptoms are just indicators. We are treating the whole symptom, kill the symptom and everything is fine. Now, if you kill the symptom, it will become, the problem will become more complex and more complex.

This is why with the advancement of medicine, we should have achieved fantastic sense of health. Instead of that, we are complicating health. As I repeat, as I say this, when it comes to, there are two types of ailments that we can get. One is infection. Infection means an external organism has invaded us.

This is a war. When it comes to war, everything is fair in love and war. You fight, you put chemicals, you nuclear bomb it, you radiate it, do whatever the hell. Somehow get rid of it. That's all. But we're talking about chronic ailments, which is over 70% of the human problem. This is self-created, self-manufactured from within because we have not taken charge of the system.

Yeah. I know you teach inner engineering around the world in your institutes. And I believe that one of the things within that course is meditative practices, things like yoga. And of course, we started off this conversation talking about sleep and rest. We mentioned showering in the evening, we mentioned eating three to four hours before bed. I presume you think that, or I shouldn't presume, would you say that some form of yoga or meditative practice in the evening is a good thing to help people switch

off from the day and to allow them to relax? When we say in engineering, say right now, when would you say something is well engineered let's say a building or a machine or let's say an automobile when would you say this automobile is well engineered when it does exactly what you want

when it fulfills the purpose for which you are driving it the same goes for this right now what is the problem? When you want to stay awake, you can't stay awake. When you want to sleep, you cannot sleep. This means this machine is not well engineered.

Fundamental design is fine, but still what we do inside and the software that we create on a daily basis is not well engineered. So if you engineer this properly, you ask this question, is it possible to live stress-free? Of course, because well engineered means you live here with least amount of friction in physical world. Physical world has friction, can't help.

Because any physical movement, even if you move your hand through the air, there is a certain amount of friction. All right? It may be negligible, but there is a certain amount of friction. But why should there be friction in software? Hardware, there is friction. Why there is friction in software? That is simply self-created.

Bad software. If your software is making noises with friction and it needs lubrication, it's badly set up software, isn't it? Hardware creaks a little bit. That needs to be managed. That needs to be lubricated. So the yoga, the other things that you're talking about

is about that. But there is something more profound than that. When you say yoga, I know you're thinking of physical postures. We must understand this. Yoga means union. Union means, there are many ways to see this. When you breathe, what you exhale, the trees are inhaling.

What the trees exhale, I'm inhaling. But today, somebody may ask, where is the damn tree? I'm sitting in an air-conditioned room and breathing, all right? Where is the tree? Because people don't bother to even look at that. So I'm saying this is just on one level. On every level,

every cell in the body, every subatomic particle in the body is in constant interaction with everything. Otherwise, this cannot exist here for one moment Otherwise, this cannot exist here for one moment. This life cannot exist here for one moment. This is yoga. When it comes to your living experience, that nobody has to tell you,

see what tree is giving out oxygen, you are giving out carbon dioxide, exchange happening. Not like that. If you pay attention to your breath, really pay attention to your breath, you know this. You just know this by experience. When you know this, you're in yoga. It's not just about breath. In every aspect of your life, the food that you eat is yoga, isn't it?

What was soil became food. What was food is sitting here as your body today. And one day this will be soil once again. So how come human beings don't know this? Everything has to be written in a book. Because as I said in the beginning, no perception, simply information. We are misunderstanding information for perception

and intelligence above all because right from the day you went to school today everywhere in the world the school has become

largely European foundations alright so you are only rewarded for your memory you are never rewarded for your attention please see this

this is a very wrong way to create a civilization. Sadhguru, it's been a real honor speaking to you today. You've certainly given me a lot of food for thought. I always love to finish off each conversation on my podcast with something practical, something inspirational for the many people around the world who are struggling with their physical and mental well-being. Just to finish off our first

and hopefully not our last conversation together, do you have any final words for people to inspire them? So instead of telling them how to sleep, let me tell them how to wake up. Tomorrow morning when they wake up, they must know that every day so many people, a few hundred thousand people, don't

wake up the next day. That is natural death happens. So when you wake up in the morning, pinch yourself and see if you're genuinely alive. Give yourself a smile. Oh, what do I smile at? Okay, the ceiling, it's all right. Your bedroom ceiling is good enough. But the important thing is you're alive. Because if you

really look at it, you think you have a job, you think you have money, you think you have wealth, you think you have family. No, the only thing that you have is life. If this one thing is taken out of you, you have nothing. All right? So knowing this, and also I already told you, you've been dead for so long. You're just alive for a brief time.

And again, you'll be dead forever. So this brief time, if you're still alive today, just give yourself a smile. And every time you look at your watch, oh, it's no timeime, I'm still alive. How many died from 10 to noon? We don't know.

I'm still alive. Smile. Hello? Because this is the greatest thing. The greatest phenomena happening here is life. You need to pay attention to that. And it's throbbing within you. It's not somewhere up there.

It's throbbing within you. It's not somewhere up there. It's throbbing within you. So you focus more on how to come awake and become more and more awake. Sleep will take care of itself. Sadhguru, thank you for sharing your wisdom. Namaskaram. Thank you very much. Namaste. Really hope you enjoyed that conversation, which I think was a little bit different to usual. What did you make of it? Did it challenge you? Did you disagree with anything? Did it leave you changing your view on a particular topic? Or perhaps you need some time to think and reflect. As I mentioned in the intro, this is a conversation that seems to deliver more wisdom the more often you listen to it. So perhaps it's one that you will consider revisiting over the coming weeks.

And if you want more advice and practical insights on how to lead a healthier and happier life, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of topics, including happiness, food, stress, sleep, behaviour change, movement, weight loss, and more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks, and as audiobooks, which I am narrating. Before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday Five. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time

better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free at drchatterjee.com forward slash Friday Five. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated

if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always worth it. Because when you feel better, you live more.